|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
DM Beckett wrote:
As I said above, I completely disagree with this. Any paladin (or lawful good character) in the Pathfinder Society has obviously decided that supporting the Society is a way of helping the greater good, or they wouldn't have joined.
The Society may be neutral, but a lot of what it does helps keep ancient, powerful magic out of clearly evil hands. That would count as "greater good" by almost anyone's standards. Add in the existence of the Silver Crusade, which tries to move the Society more in the direction of being a good, rather than just neutral, organization, and you have plenty of justification for paladins and other good people to be Pathfinders. No house ruling or sweeping under the rug necessary, and that does explain why paladins in the Society will work with evil occasionally to advance the Society's goals. It really is for the greater good.
And again, we as players may have reason to believe that there may be some evil in the Decemvirate and wonder at their overall plans and goals, but most rank and file Pathfinders don't have access to that information. Heck, even among us players, it's mostly speculation, as far as I know. Do we have any proof of an evil Decemvirate member in any published source?
Again, just because someone detects as evil, that doesn't mean a paladin has to smite them immediately. That would be lawful stupid.
Paladins have to prevent evil acts, not evil people. Many paladins would see someone with evil in their heart, who doesn't act on it for fear of the consequences, and commend them for their restraint and encourage them to try and become a better person. Especially paladins of Sarenrae.
I actually remember GMing a table with a paladin, a cleric of Asmodeus (who detects as evil, obviously), and a worshiper of Cayden Cailean. The Asmodean liked the paladin better than the Caydenite. At least the paladin is lawful! LOL
I can also think of several scenarios off the top of my head where you're supposed to work with (or even obey orders from) evil NPCs. Zarta Dralneen being the obvious example there, but also the guy who traveled with the group in First Steps, part 3, though I don't remember if he was high enough level to detect as evil yet.
Is the ban hammer in the hammer weapon group?
Putting Wasp Familiar on a Chronicle Sheet seems silly since its already so restricted the odd of you playing it with the proper character are astronomical unless its done as it unlocks it for all characters like a few other the rare boons do.
It wouldn't have to be on an adventure chronicle. It could be a convention boon, like the race boons, that could be applied to a new PC.
Really, I'm surprised they haven't done stuff like improved familiars that aren't usually available or intelligent items as convention boons. They've been on the occasional adventure, but putting them on a convention boon would be more popular than the non-race boons they give out at conventions now.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
No, just for players. If you have no knowledge of a scenario, you shouldn't be able to check the treasure and pick which PC to play based on that.
But boon shopping for GMs is perfectly normal. I know I made a point of GMing one that gives a special improved familiar just so I could apply it to a PC that can use that familiar. In that case, I knew about the boon on the chronicle from having previously played the adventure with a different PC.
My big complaint about quests is that they require you to play a pregen. When I show up to play, I want to play my own PCs. I can see how they're good recruitment tools for conventions, but I'd prefer to never see them anywhere else.
We played Phantom Phenomena at our local game store a few weeks ago, and I didn't realize we had to play pregens until I showed up that day. If I'd known, I probably would have skipped playing that week. I don't have much time to read/prep new adventures these days, due to other life stuff, or I'd say I would have volunteered to GM instead.
I've played/GMed this adventure several times before, so I'm mostly keeping my mouth shut. Given that Molos is an anti-social PC, it kinda fits.
FYI, I'm actually busy with a gaming convention this weekend, so won't have as much time to check in here. Just played two sessions of PFS (one as GM, one as a player) today. I'm signed up for 3 sessions tomorrow, but I've decided to blow off the morning session. 8 AM is just too early, especially given that it's a 40 minute drive from home.
So I'll check in tomorrow morning, but then not again until close to midnight here, kinda like today.
I hadn't considered the possibility that Belkar might be the one
But what if it is Belkar, and the one demigod priest who comes in to settle the tie is Elan, high priest of Banjo? Or possibly the orc priest from the tribe that he converted to worshiping the puppet pantheon.
This whole huge fight, and Roy could lose (probably without dying), but the Order still saves the world!
I agree with FLite that the final "clue" (and I use the term loosely) should give the solution to the players, and the GM should just give them the solution (call for intelligence checks or something) if they still can't get it after that.
That doesn't solve the fact that your players just wasted 20+ minutes of their lives on a truly crappy, frustrating puzzle that even puzzle enthusiasts won't enjoy. The so called "clues" don't make any sense or actually lead to the solution. The hints from the future eventually tell you the solution outright, but there's still no rhyme or reason as to how you might figure out that solution without those future hints, and no logical reason to explain how the PC's future selves could have come to those conclusions.
Good point. I guess he won't just sit on my shoulder casting over and over.
He'll probably give me Guidance before I move up to meet the enemy, then fly off my shoulder. Next round, he can cast while away from the front line, then move up and touch a front liner (me or an ally) to Guidance them. Third round, withdraw, then repeat Guidance every other round. Or sit on the shoulder of a ranged person in the back and Guidance them instead of me.
Matthew Morris wrote:
Yeah, I never understood why first level clerics radiate evil, but first level aristocrats don't. :P
Something I missed until I was actually building the character last night and reading up on all the details - the familiar that goes with this paladin archetype is required to have the Emissary archetype itself. Given that it's a religion based archetype that gives up the share spell and deliver touch spell powers that a paladin will rarely need, that fits nicely.
So besides zipping around the battlefield healing people with Lay on Paws, the familiar can also cast Guidance at will, help with your Will saves (could be useful until you get Divine Grace at level 4, but doubtful after that), and gets a 1st level cleric domain power once per day starting at 3rd level. If there are no better options, any familiar sent by an LG or NG deity can take the Good Domain power, which is nice, but there are other good options from other domains, depending on the deity involved.
For my Chosen One of Shizuru, I'm probably going with the Honor subdomain power from the APG, which acts like Protection from Evil in giving someone a reroll on a failed Will save vs enchantments. Other good options were the Good domain power for a buff on all rolls for a round, or the Glory domain power for a buff to social skills.
So as I said, I rebuilt my old paladin into a Chosen One last night. I'm still trying to come up with details for her back story, and may still change a detail or two based on that (like starting languages).
I went with the thrush familiar. It gives +3 to diplomacy, has a 40 ft fly speed, can speak from level 1, and is small enough to sit on my shoulder the whole time, so the Guidance can just keep on coming. The rabbit was tempting, but I just have this idea of the bird whistling innocently and acting like a dumb animal most of them time, then turning around and talking like a normal person when they least expect it. This could be fun, since this is for PFS, where you're playing with different people every time, so they're likely to assume it's a pet until it starts casting spells and speaking. :P
Blayde MacRonan wrote:
I recognize the reference and I heartily approve. CrossGen had some pretty awesome stuff and Chuck Dixon writing Way of the Rat was one. It doesn't have to follow exactly but the basis is definitely sound.
I think I've decided to go with the more "girly" character for the Chosen One paladin, and save the Jade Rat for another PC. I started this thread to discuss how to do that one.
So I picked up the Familiar Folio and Animal Archive this weekend, and I've decided to go with this archetype. I have my paladin of Shizuru in PFS that I've only played once, so I can still do a level 1 rebuild on him, even though he's up to level 2 on GM credits. Now I need to figure out the details (which familiar, changes to the PC's story, possible other mechanical changes, etc).
I originally went with a Japanese themed character, worshiping Shizuru, the
He has Fey Foundling for mechanical reasons, and I wrote it into his back story that he's an aasimar who doesn't know who his parents were. Instead of training to be a paladin like his original back story, I'll have to change it to my character stumbling in to it, guided by the new familiar. For mechanical reasons, I want a familiar with at least 30 speed, so it can move around the battlefield to "lay on paws" to his allies, as necessary.
So in keeping with the "magical girl" theme of the archetype, I'd consider changing the PC to female. If I did that, I'd also want to go with a really "cute" familiar, like a bird, cat, or rabbit, not any sort of reptile or anything like that. I kinda like the idea of a rabbit familiar, just because it's one you don't see very often, and it's got 50 ft speed and adds to the paladin's initiative, which are two good favors. I also kinda like the thrush, as a bird that can talk from level 1, flies at decent speed, and adds to the master's diplomacy.
Another option I thought of would be to go with an obscure reference that nobody will ever recognize, and model both the paladin and his familiar on the main characters of the comic book "Way of the Rat". It was an American comic by publisher CrossGen that went out of business about a decade ago, but it was a Japanese themed story about a thief who became a hero, mentored by a talking monkey. This has potential. I haven't read those comics in probably 10 years, so I'll have to go back to my collection and see what I think of them as an inspiration for this character.
Jayson MF Kip wrote:
E] All of the above. That way, you get to play everything AND complain about everything.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Back when master summoner was still allowed in PFS, I had a friend who played a pony summoner. She had a toy set of MLP ponies that were exactly the right size to represent large creatures on a PFS battle mat, and she'd bring them out one at a time, intentionally using different minis each time.
Getting back to the original topic of commonly overlooked rules, I know the Grease spell is handled wrong very frequently. If you try to grease an item (such as an enemy's weapon) and they succeed at the saving throw, then the grease never gets on to the item. It does NOT mean that the item is greased and they have to make a new save every round to avoid dropping it.
I'm sure that for the chaotic dieties this won't be as big a requirement. Besmara doesn't seem the type to have strict requirements of her followers, for instance.
Yeah, my cleric of Besmara doesn't even carry his goddess's favored weapon. And he calls himself a pirate, not a priest. He's just a pirate who happens to get divine powers from the goddess of pirates.
On the other hand, I have a druid who I introduce as a priestess of Gozreh.
In both cases, I don't mention the PC's class as part of my character introductions. This is for Pathfinder Society, where I'm sitting with different people every time, so other players don't know my characters the first time I play those PCs with those people at the table. I like having my PCs introduce WHO they are (profession, personality, how the PCs see themselves) instead of WHAT they are (character class, stats).
I even have a paladin who introduces himself as a samurai, just to mess with people. He's not lying - that's his official title in his native country, and because he's young and naive (low wisdom), and only recently learned to speak Common badly (he's Tien), he honestly doesn't realize the confusion this causes.
Matthew Morris wrote:
And again, I think people are being way too sensitive about faking things in a game.
I'm a vegetarian in real life, because I'm an animal lover, but I had no problem sniping at guard dogs with a longbow in game.
I even have a fighter with profession: chef and a bite attack, who not only feasts on the flesh of his enemies after they're dead, but also comments about what sauce he'll use when he gets a sample bite of their raw meat while fighting them. His entire reason for joining the Society was to travel the world and try all the different cuisines of various cultures, so sampling the meat of new creatures this way excites him. I've had to tone it down at certain tables, especially when dealing with eating sentient creatures, but again, I think people are being way too sensitive over a game.
I'm not sure which is more surprising to me - the people acting like summoning perfectly legal things on the summon list might be controversial, or all the people in this thread saying that it never comes up.
I have a friend who played a tiefling witch and summoned devils occasionally. Nobody cared. About him summoning devils, or about his character being descended from them. We'd sit there and make jokes about the bearded devil he summoned being "Uncle Bob". If you're going to claim devils and demons are controversial, then why not tieflings? Those are extremely common in PFS, though slightly less so now that you need a boon to make one again.
A local player had a Chelaxian cleric of Asmodeus whose primary role in combat is devil summoner. At low levels, I remember him summoning so many lemures that as a GM, I almost asked him to slow down on the summoning, just to leave room on the battle map for everyone else. I didn't play with him quite often enough to ever reach that point, though. But he had a small horde of lemure minis, so they'd look like the right thing when he plopped 5 or 6 of them down on the map at once. Again, what he was summoning wasn't the controversial part, just the fact that he was hogging the front line.
On the other hand, outrage about animating the dead is very common on these boards, but I've only met one PC that's ever wanted to do it. That was a game at GenCon last month, and the character ended up not bothering doing it, because the situation just didn't need it. But in that case, you're abusing dead bodies of possibly good people, so I can see why there's slightly more controversy. Again, if you're going to allow borderline evil PCs, you have to expect some of this, so I personally don't care.
But I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Why are these things more controversial than all the times that murderhobo PCs start fights and kill "enemies" without even trying to talk their way out of fighting? Seriously, you'd think MURDER would be more controversial than summoning devils or animating corpses, and it's certainly MUCH more common, yet nobody sees that as the least bit controversial.
Well, if we're not limiting it to Adventure Paths, but including any adventure Paizo has published, most that I know are from PFS scenarios. Here are some of my favorites, in no particular order:
You Only Die Twice (This one just sounds like a Bond movie, doesn't it?)
Hmm... I never posted in this thread. I've got a few oldies that are worth mentioning.
One of my favorite scenarios to GM allows me to watch the players' reactions whenever I tell them, "The chair attacks you". Best reaction I ever got was from a guy playing a ranger: "Good thing I have favored enemy: furniture."
At a convention once, I was GMing a table with a 9 year old girl playing an archery focused ranger. This kid was bloodthirsty. At one point, they're supposed to try and find a way into a warehouse in public, in broad daylight, while there's a guard outside sitting on a barrel.
Girl: "I shoot the guard with an arrow."
After it was explained to her that starting a fight in public like that would draw the city guard and get them all arrested: "It's not starting a fight if I just shoot him with an arrow." During the course of further debate, she also came out with this gem: "But he's asking for it. He's sitting on a barrel."
Oh, I wasn't asking for fear of broken PCs. I'm just trying to judge how my own front line characters stack up when it comes to tanking.
For my battle oracle, I think I'm roughly hitting the level +20 standard that I mentioned earlier. I don't have the sheet in front of me and haven't played him in a while, but I think he's at 24 or 25 AC at level 5, which tends to be good enough. He gets hit, but his AC is high enough to minimize how often.
But I also made a fighter who's intentionally more of an AC tank than I've ever done before, but intentionally going non-archetype, non-multi-class fighter, just to prove that the base class isn't as worthless as the power gamers would have you believe. He won't be the most optimized ever, but he should be effective enough to be useful at any table. And his highest skill is profession: chef, because that's his true passion in life.
Your mistake there was assuming that these forums reflect actual play. Obviously, they don't.
As I think I've mentioned around here before, these forums aren't even about PFS. They actually exist for people whose hobby is arguing about things on the internet.
I'm sorry, but anyone who has that big a problem with demons and devils in a game shouldn't be playing Pathfinder. Period. There are plenty of role playing games that don't have that aspect. Play those instead.
Yeah, my main thing is that certain characters get boring if I don't have a fun way to express their personality. Even those with detailed back stories.
That's why I've got 4 or 5 PCs that I'm not really interested in playing any more, out of my 16 in PFS (plus one that I haven't actually created yet due to a rules ambiguity that could kill the idea).
The ones I have the most fun playing are the ones where I've come up with some sort of distinctive personality quirks that come up during play.
Just looked again. Roy and Durkon are standing in some sort of magic circle in the room. I wonder if that boosts Will saves, to keep things honest in the Godsmoot.
John Woodford wrote:
Remember that lesson Durkon learned as a kid about not stepping into help unless asked, and then Roy teaching him the opposite with regard to their party? I'm thinking Durkula's going to mix that up, and Durkon will somehow get a shot at helping, because the vamp lets its guard down.
Just a Mort wrote:
Hopefully you're half human, or fully human, use the human fcb to increase number of spells you know. Pick up glitterdust (2nd lv spell), summon monster series, haste (3rd lv spell). Those don't bother if foes are immune to mind affecting. Sorcerers have the weakness of having less versatility, but with a little tweaking of spell selection, you can still be fairly versatile.
Just in general, every character should always have a backup plan. When I make a character, I try to have a plan for three things:
1. What's my specialty in combat?
For instance, in PFS, I have a fey bloodline sorcerer, so obviously that character is very good at enchantments. I made sure to pick up some blasting as a backup plan, starting with Magic Missile at level 1, so I always have something to do, even against mindless foes. And obviously, charisma based casters tend to be good at social skills, so that's my primary out of combat role.
Actually, it's my gnome prankster bard that has a bigger problem with mindless foes, since his whole shtick is insulting people (debuffing enemies through intimidation and the Mock bardic performance, along with enchantment spells). His backup plan to be useful in combat against mindless foes is Inspire Courage, Grease, and a wand of Cure Light Wounds. I've gotten to 5th level with this guy in PFS, and the only direct damage he's ever done to an enemy was hitting a skeleton with that CLW wand.
This is also why my barbarian has a composite longbow - that's the backup plan for when "be a melee monster" isn't a viable option in combat. It always amazes me how often I see melee characters that don't even own a ranged weapon.
But on the original topic, I agree with others who have suggested that having a conversation with the GM about the intended direction of the campaign, and your PC's role in it, would be a good idea.
Now when the three directors were mentioned I recall that they didn't want the world to be destroyed... Will they make any move to that effect? Can they currently make any move that would prevent that?
I'm thinking they could take possession of V again, just long enough to deliver some information. ie Send the rest of the Order to back up Roy.