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Echoing some other ideas I also don't like the idea of the pack-mule character who has everything the party needs but never has to accept the drawbacks of doing so. While they have to pay the upfront cost to obtain the items they never suffer the real costs because it is distributed among the rest of the party. It means a lot of utility for the entire party with no thought of resource management on the individual level.
I don't understand this comment at all. There's definitely a drawback of loading up on consumables. All that money is no longer available for other things like armor, weapons, cloak of resistance, etc, because it's tied up in your consumables.
Wow. I didn't expect this to blow up so much so quickly. I had no idea I had the power to summon flames this way. I must be a flame oracle! Praise Sarenrae!!!
So two comments.
First, I want to respond to a comment, but it's slightly off topic, so I'll put it in spoilers to make it easier to keep the off topic stuff separate from the main conversation.
Kevin Willis wrote:
The general expectations where I have played are that if you can raise yourself in any fashion without selling gear, you do so. If not, other players consider chipping in.
I've never heard of this. Any time a PC has died at any table where I've played, I've always offered to chip in for the Raise Dead and/or Restorations. Whether or not the player could pay for it him/herself doesn't enter into it, though that often comes up as we discuss details.
For instance, the last time a PC died at one of my tables, he declined the offers to help him pay for the raise and just spent the prestige to do it himself. I think the rest of us split the cost of the Restorations.
Second, and back to the main topic at hand. It seems there's a lot of people worrying about the expectation of payback for all consumables becoming socially mandatory, even if it's not rules mandatory. I can see their point.
So here's an alternative suggestion for how to make a change in this. It seems that the main reason this conversation keeps coming up is people wanting to pay others back for using scrolls of Breathe of Life on them. What if we just make a rules change to make that possible, but leave all other consumables out of it?
In other words, the rules currently say you can only split costs on getting someone raised from the dead. Also, when you buy spellcasting services, those spells don't have to be cast on yourself, so you can help each other out on condition removal and Restorations after a scenario. This new suggestion is to just add scrolls of Breathe of Life to the list of things that party members can pool resources for, but this can ONLY be done to replace such a scroll that was cast during the course of the adventure.
Maybe try that out for a year, and if it goes well, then ask the player base if they'd want to expand it to other scrolls/potions that remove permanent conditions. But don't expand it to all consumables, for the reasons discussed in this thread so far.
What do you all think?
I think my last post came across angrier than I'd intended, so I just want to apologize to John and the Paizo staff. When I said we'd been lied to, I wasn't trying to imply it was intentional. I'm just frustrated that we were told repeatedly that the Sczarni types would fit in fine with The Exchange, and it just hasn't worked out that way. But I know you guys are trying, and I'm glad you're listening and planning changes for next season. Hopefully, my pirate will fit in better then. And my blacksmith.
And when I wrote that, I was annoyed at the accusation upthread that I was just being whiny because I'd built a PC that didn't fit his faction. My point is that when I built the PC, he did fit his faction. Then, the faction changed.
Ok, so you found one adventure that's perfect for this type of Exchange member. Now let me tell you about my pirate PC's last adventure.
We got sent to a small village in the middle of nowhere, so no major trade center. That means no merchant license to earn, and no rival merchants to undermine.
We met a couple of named NPCs in the village, but none of them were merchants, traders, or smugglers by any stretch.
We left town to go fight some stuff that required fighting. No way to talk down the wild animals or hostile natives.
In the end, my +9 profession (sailor) at level 4 wasn't enough to hit 50 gp on the day job check for this one.
And being non-int based and a class that's low on skill ranks, I doubt if I'll ever put enough ranks in linguistics to learn 7 languages.
How exactly is my Sczarni pirate with intimidate, sense motive, and profession: sailor as his top skills supposed to do these? There are at least 3 of these goals that I'll never stand a chance at, even in adventures that are perfect for them, because my PC isn't built for the very specific skills that are necessary (diplomacy, profession (merchant), appraise, and linguistics).
The door to the Scarab Sages' research room in the Grand Lodge shakes a little, as if someone is trying to open it without turning the handle. After a moment, the handle turns, and surprisingly, the creature opening it turns out to be a two legged reptilian creature with feathers, slightly shorter than a halfling, but twice as long, thanks to its long tail. The creature has a large mouth full of sharp teeth, and is wearing what appears to be leather barding and an animal training harness.
It's taloned feet click on the stone floor as it enters and looks around menacingly. It makes a curious "Rawr?" noise several times as it wanders around the room.
My gnome prankster bard uses perform: comedy as his intimidation skill, using versatile performance. And the archetype gets a bardic performance called "mock", where you can debuff enemies by taunting them. Needless to say, I've had fun with this one.
My favorite was telling an Earth Elemental (in Terran - my PC collects known languages just so I can insult EVERYBODY), "Hey boulder balls! Yo mama was a cubic zirconium!"
Step 2 is completely unnecessary. You can do this just as effectively on scenarios you haven't played/GMed before, so you really don't know what's coming. Just keep the statements vague, and you'll be "right" often enough to claim to be a true fortune teller. That's how fortune tellers do it in the real world. When you're playing Pathfinder, vague predictions of trouble coming, and a fight about to start will be right more often than they're wrong.
Christopher Wasko wrote:
My group considered putting it in the stew instead of the poison, but the GM (Bongo Bigbounce) warned us that it wouldn't work that way, which I already suspected. Still, we had fun joking about all the possible uses for how the poison and love elixir could be used.
All in all, a really fun adventure. The whole trilogy, actually. Well done to all involved.
I was glad I brought my low level Dark Archive PC for this trilogy. He's a skill monkey infiltrator inquisitor of the Reaper of Reputations (Norgorber's aspect as the god of secrets) who is obsessed with finding out secrets. So having him find out the big reveal about Zarta was almost a character defining moment. But he's still obsessed with finding out who the Decemvirate are, so he'll continue to serve as a loyal Pathfinder, at least until he achieves that life goal.
Of course, bringing along that kind of skill monkey was perfect for this part of the trilogy. He's not great in combat, but that +15 bluff at level 3 came in REALLY handy here. And between my guy, the psychic, and two wizards, our group had no problem with knowledge rolls throughout the entire trilogy (which was huge in part 2 especially).
I was just going to mention Skip.
We were playing a Pathfinder Society adventure featuring Paracountess Zarta Dralneen. For those who don't play PFS, I'll just say that she's the NPC leader of one of the in game PC factions, and is well known for being the Society's biggest... err... let's just say "flirt" to be polite.
At one point, she dropped a hint about something she wanted a PC member of her faction to do, requiring him to make a Sense Motive check to get the secret message. Being a skill focused PC, he had no problem making the check, and commented, "I can read Zarta like a book."
I responded with "In Braille?"
Jeremiah Hatcher wrote:
Concept for a Vigilante: the social side is a well to do scholarly intellectual, and the vigilante is the sock-puppet on his hand. They swear they do not know each other and deny each other's existence.
If you're going for a combat maneuver specialist, always have a backup plan. Preferably straight up damage dealing.
My warpriest of Shelyn specializes in tripping people with his glaive - the advantage of a goddess with a favored weapon with reach. But if the situation isn't right for it, he's still got 18 strength and a two handed weapon, with Power Attack coming soon (he's only level 2), so he can just bash the enemies when necessary.
I can see not allowing animal companions inside like the a ball full of aristocrats.
There's one Pathfinder Society adventure where the mission is to sneak into an embassy, using a fancy party as cover.
One of the times I GMed that adventure, we had a druid bring along her elephant animal companion. Her excuse was, "But he's just a baby!" (low enough level to be medium sized).
The best part was that they actually hung colored streamers and stuff on the elephant, and pretended it was part of the entertainment. In order to avoid being spotted, everyone in the party had to make some sort of skill check to blend in, and they were allowed a certain number of failures before the guards were called. I ruled that the elephant counted as a party member that automatically failed its skill check, but gave the druid a bonus on a bluff check to pretend to be part of the entertainment.
I started looking into making a thrown weapon build, just to see if it was feasible. This was for standard PFS.
Based on the discussion in that thread, I decided to stick to regular fighter, no archetype, despite having considered brawler and warpriest along the way. There's just lots of feats and extras from the Weapon Masters Handbook that relate to thrown weapons that work well with a fighter.
I went human for the bonus feat and skills, and checked the Advanced Race Guide to see if there were any good extras that would work on this guy, and decided there aren't. I started fishing for good traits, and ended up settling on a faction trait from the PFS Guild Guide, along with a basic trait from the Advanced Players Guide, which is also in the online trait document.
That's when I realized that as long as I don't buy any non-Core equipment, this guy is Core at level 1. Sure, I plan on picking up 5 feats from the Weapon Masters Handbook eventually, but I won't take the first of those until level 4. And with only 150 gp to start, I can't think of anything other than earplugs that I'd want to buy to start that isn't Core, though I'm sure I'll quickly branch out to other non-Core equipment.
So my human fighter accidentally qualified for the Core campaign, even though I plan on him becoming non-Core by level 4, at the latest. Since I don't know exactly when/where I'll play him first, I think I'll register him as Core for now, just to keep my options open.
Someone once dropped in for a PFS game with a My Little Pony figure that fit the 1" grid map because it was rearing up on hind legs to represent his character. The only issue I had with it was that the figure kept falling down on the unfolded, large grid paper map on an uneven table because the base was so narrow. So basically, make sure the base for the miniature is wide and sturdy; constantly falling/tipped over miniatures are annoying for everyone.
I had a friend with a master summoner, back before that archetype was banned in PFS. She had a whole set of My Little Pony minis, and her character would summon ponies every fight. Each time, she'd pull out a different mini to represent the summoned pony, and afterward, she'd write in her notes what happened to that particular pony (killed by bugbear, survived and disappeared, etc).
Evie Smith wrote:
Ah been in luv since ah firs' met 'er.
Speakin' o' Addish'nal Resource updates, any chance o' Inn'r Sea Faiths bein' in dere? Ah'm lookin' fer more info on th' oth'r lady 'n mah life, Besmara. (And maybe taking her Deific Obedience)
Victor Ravenport wrote:
If I ever should archive undeath as a necromancer, I most likely wouldn't be the type that would run around, raising mindless ghouls or skeletons left or right, I would barricade myself up in a library and remain there, reading till' the world comes to an end.
Just don't break your glasses.
Actually, if I was doing a Throw Anything build, Ricochet Toss is the one feat I'd probably skip. The whole point of that build is to throw all sorts of different things, not get your weapons back.
I can just see your guy pulling things out of a toolbox one at a time, giving the enemies a lecture on his tools, while using Startoss Shower to bounce each tool off of three different enemies. "This here's a 1/4 inch Philips head screwdriver", *throw*, "while this one is a 3/8 inch flat head." *throw*
I think the tickets by sub-tier are mostly a good thing.
But (you knew there had to be a but, right?), given that tickets will go on sale (and probably sell out) months in advance, the most active players may not know what PCs will be what level when they're buying tickets. So it could cause some minor issues in that regard, with people having tickets that don't match their PC levels by the time the convention happens.
Definitely a minor issue compared to GM's not being prepped for the right subtier (which happened to me as a GenCon GM once in the past, so I know the feeling), but still an issue to watch out for. Hopefully, Paizo will come up with a more perfect solution in the future.
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
I like where you're going with this, though I don't know if I'd make them exclusive.
Why not just do three boxes worth 1 goal, then another 5 boxes worth 1 goal, then another 8 boxes worth 1 goal? Then, someone who GMs a lot could end up hitting three goals, but it gets progressively harder each time. In the mean time, the easiest one only needing three GM sessions makes it more realistic as an incentive for people like me who don't GM as much and/or apply their GM credits to different PCs.
I guess it comes down to the question of what's the point of this.
Is it to reward the die hards who GM all the time? Is it to motivate people to try GMing who wouldn't otherwise? Is it to reward people who GM only some of the time? Because it fails miserably on those last two, just because of the high threshhold to get a reward out of it.
When I said I was in support of breaking this up, I just assumed that the double reward would be split up also. And again, I think being able to fill this in with GM sessions that you don't get a chronicle for would also be a good change. In that case, I'd say don't split it up, since you're already making it easier to get the reward.
I split my GM credits on a variety of characters, too, mostly because I'd rather play my PCs than level them up using GM credits. I don't mind picking up 2-3 GM credits on a character to get through the low levels quickly, but I rarely put GM credits on PC's over level 3, other than to get a specific boon from the sheet.
Just for reference, I'm a 3 star GM, and I don't think any of my characters has 5 GM credits, dating back 4 years, not just on the current faction cards.
Edit: Here's another, related thought: How about letting us get the faction reward for this if we GM a game without getting a chronicle? ie If you GM the same adventure 3 times, you can still only apply a chronicle to a character the first time, but the other two could still count towards this faction reward? We've debated for years giving a reward (beyond GM stars) for GMing the same adventure a second (or more) time, and this could be it.
Woo! Rogue-Shaming and Fighter-Shaming! Everybody drink!
Be sure to drink twice - once for the fighter hate and once for the rogue hate.
Bart beat me to it on responding to why fighters are actually good. They might not be the absolute best at anything, but they've got enough feats to be very good at whatever they want to do, and to even have more than one specialty.
Of my 20 PFS PCs, two of them are fighters, and I'm currently planning another fighter for my 21st. I've also got an Unchained Rogue. None of them are multi-class yet, though I was considering a two level dip into warpriest for #21. Not because straight fighter isn't good enough, but mostly for flavor and to be a little different.
Just to give you an idea of why I went fighter with these PCs: One is the dwarven Foehammer archetype from the Advanced Race Guide. It just looked cool and flavorful. A dwarven longhammer, dwarven boulder helm, and 18 strength go a long way in a fight, and I'm giving him some combat maneuvers for fun.
One of them is a non-archetype, non-multiclass fighter that I made in response to one of these fighter hate threads, just to prove I could make a fun and useful PC that way. I decided to go armored tank with him for high AC, but try to do it without a shield, so I could still get two handed weapon damage. He's a tiefling with Armor of the Pit feat, Defender of the Society trait, and Dodge to make up for the lack of shield. He's also got 14 dex to go with the Armor Training, since fighter's the only class that can get +2 dex to AC even in full plate, and I'll boost that later in life to 16 dex once his Armor Training can keep up and I have enough cash. But his damage isn't hindered by all that armor focus, because he's still a fighter with 18 strength and a greatsword, with the usual Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, etc. And a bite for one more attack, just because I can. And just enough skill ranks to be good at intimidate and profession (chef), along with the occasional rank here and there in things like swim and climb for utility.
The newest one is an attempt to see if thrown weapons could be a viable combat style. The short answer: Yes, as long as you own the Weapon Master Handbook, and play a class with a LOT of bonus feats. Fighter is the best choice, just for quantity of bonus feats, and you can still get 2-4 skill ranks per level pretty easily, and take a trait to have an unusual class skill if you want stuff that's not on the fighter list.
TWF can apply to both melee and ranged rolls, and can get a second off-hand hit with Imporved TWF, for only a slight damage loss, you get a more versatile feat.
Ok, I get it. For light thrown weapons like daggers, that's probably the way to go. In fact, my TWF Unchained Knife Master Rogue is planning to stick to daggers even in ranged combat, except for longer ranges.
Javelins aren't light though, so I'd take -4 to hit instead of -2 if I used TWF instead of Rapid Shot. Not worth it. But I'd still pick either one over Startoss Style, Comet, and Shower, just for the versatility of attacking the same target multiple times, rather than bouncing the weapon off multiple mooks. Startoss is still worth considering for the +2 damage per feat, though.
So here's the feats I think we can mostly agree on for a javelin throwing build:
Must have feats (in this order):
Point Blank Shot
Feats to increase hit chance (Weapon Focus and one of Distance Thrower or Far Shot are pretty close to counting as "Must Have"):
Feats to increase damage (and flexibility if you're attacking multiple targets):
Other nice feats to have:
Point Blank Master
Obviously, this is too many feats for any one PC, even a human fighter. But at least it shows what to consider. Did I miss any?
This is the Rules subforum. The rules aren't different for characters with different charisma modifiers. That just reflects how effective they are when they take 10, not whether or not they can do it.
So I kinda like the idea of the Golarion god Kurgess, whose favored weapon is the javelin. It got me wondering if there's a way to make a viable PC that specializes in javelin throwing. This would be for Pathfinder Society, so starting at level 1, PFS legal, etc.
I'm open to pretty much any class, race, or concept that's PFS legal, as long as they worship Kurgess and specialize in javelins.