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Roy Greenhilt

Fromper's page

FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 4,766 posts (5,037 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 16 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Silver Crusade **

Chris O'Reilly wrote:
I know one scenario with a negative boon at the end on the chronicle indicating you get captured and tortured. To me, that implies that if they want to say you get captured instead of killed it will be made explicit.

I disagree. There are plenty of situations where the NPCs don't have any motivation to kill the PCs.

This one is pretty obvious. When I ran it the first time, I had 3 experienced players breaking in new characters, along with a pregen. I actually had all 3 PCs down to negatives, with the pregen cleric running away from a Cause Fear spell, and I decided the slaver would want to keep them alive, and also be arrogant enough to think the cleric wouldn't come back. When the pregen cleric came back two rounds later, she channeled to wake up the PCs, and the fight was back on.

In conversations about another adventure where the final fight is against muggers (most of you know what scenario I'm talking about), majority opinion here on the forums has been that the muggers will just take the PCs' stuff and not care if they live or die, so they could be left bleeding in the street to stabilize on their own.

Unfortunately, this particular scenario is really rough for a group of new level 1 PCs. We've talked for years about how some subtier 1-2 adventures are fine for a bunch of level 1s, while others require at least a couple of level 2s to have a good chance to win, and it would be nice if they were labeled as such.

But it also sounds like your GM messed up the tactics - that cleric is supposed to start out just healing the undead minion with channels, not blasting the party right away. The tactics seem to be intentionally written that way to keep the adventure from being too lethal.

Silver Crusade **

joe kirner wrote:

I would say that the robots and cyberplasm would be a dc 15 + cr to identify but if pc rolling is from numeria I would give that pc a dc 10 + cr to identify.

Because of the Technologist feat, I'll disagree. Anyone with that feat should probably get 10 + CR, otherwise they can't roll.

However, I'm thinking that for the gearsmen, I'll probably let people roll Knowledge (Arcana) and tell them that these things seem similar to golems, but aren't like any golem they've ever heard of. Then, I can give them generic golem information that applies to all golems (ie adamantine is usually useful, energy damage usually isn't, because of hardness). I'll stress that this is just generic golem info, and they aren't even sure if these things are really golems, and let them run with that.

Which doesn't help on the final boss, but John Compton's ruling that you don't need the Technologist feat for that makes that one easier to deal with. I'd still make that one 15 + CR, because it's so unusual, even by Numerian standards.

Silver Crusade

Playing this tonight, and haven't settled on a PC yet. I don't see any factions mentioned as being associated with this one. Are there faction mission(s)?

Silver Crusade **

kinevon wrote:

Really? Given that he misunderstood my question, and you appear to have, as well, it bears repeating, in a more ... explicit ... format:

Are you looking for character sheet format, basic stat block format, or some other format?

Not PDF, TXT, XML or what-have-you, but what kind of output did you want the monsters & NPCs in?

So I went back to the earlier post to see what I had missed and why I misunderstood you. Here's the original exchange:

kinevon wrote:
Deussu wrote:
Thea Peters wrote:
Deussu wrote:
I have to ask. What the heck kind of a file format is .por?
It's the file extension that herolab uses
Nice. Some scenarios only have .por files available. It would be nice to provide the same in more common formats.

So, what do you consider a "more common format"?

After all, a lot of PFS players and GMs have HeroLab, just see all the threads about "Does owning expansion X in HeroLab bypass the need to town the actual book/PDF from Paizo?"

If you include the format preferred, and the scenario(s) needed, I'll see if I can export that material in your preferred format.

Deussu was very obviously talking about file formats. He asked what the .por extension is, because he didn't recognize it, and apparently has no way of opening it on his computer.

So apparently, you're claiming that you changed the subject, while using the same wording as the original subject, and you wonder why the rest of us didn't notice that you changed the subject. I still don't see any hint of your new subject in that earlier post, which I had every reason to believe was just a continuation of the previous 3 post conversation (which you quoted) about file formats.

But to answer your question, I honestly don't care that much exactly how the details are formatted, as long as it's a file extension my computer can open, usually doc, pdf, or xls. If someone took the time to format it in a way that's convenient for them before uploading it, then it's probably usable enough for me.

To me, the whole point of borrowing these shared prep monster stats is to avoid having to look up stats in various Bestiary/NPC Codex books and apply templates myself, because I'll have them all in one place. The exact format isn't the important part, since I'll almost always print it all and highlight the important bits myself, anyway. That's part of how I make sure I'm familiar enough with those monsters/NPCs to run them at the table.

My problem is with the assumption that everyone has Herolab. I can't imagine someone not being able to open a pdf or doc format file, but the fact that someone had to ask what .por is should prove that it's not universal enough to be any sort of default assumption. Yes, lots of people use Herolab. Is it more than 25% of PFS players/GMs? Maybe. More than 50%? Very doubtful, based on my experience playing/GMing for two years at a store that has 4-6 full tables every week.

Silver Crusade **

David Bowles wrote:
trollbill wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
I've been stuck behind THREE large pets before. I went for an hour and a half lunch in the middle and no one noticed. Frankly, I'd rather have been in the middle of obscuring mist or darkness.
Nothing's stopping you from politely pointing this problem out to the other players.
I did. These particular people told me to make a PC with more movement and better initiative.

And that would be the epitome of violating the "Don't be a jerk" rule.

Silver Crusade **

You may have a point on Ultimate Equipment having enough reprinted stuff from other sources not to be that high on the list by itself. I really have no idea why you seem to like Ultimate Combat so much. I can see it for certain builds, but other than a couple of spells and feats, I haven't used it. I've definitely used Ultimate Magic and Inner Sea World Guide at least as much as UC.

I'm really surprised that so many people underestimate Advanced Race Guide. Besides the fact that you'll want it to play tengu, kitsune, wayang, or nagaji characters in PFS, there are a ton of good options just for the core races. Whenever I make a new character, I always go through the alternate racial traits in there, and inevitably find at least one or two that I'd consider using for the PC I'm making. Other than the Core Rulebook, and maybe the Advanced Players Guide, I think ARG is the book that I've actually used options from for more of my PFS characters than any other book.

Silver Crusade **

My list of books I'd recommend to everyone playing PFS, in order:

Core Rulebook
Advanced Players Guide
Advanced Race Guide
Ultimate Equipment
Inner Sea World Guide

Follow up with any of:

Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
Advanced Class Guide

But only get these if there are specific things you want to use from them. Also, the Bestiaries if you'll be GMing, because they're formatted nicer and have pictures than just downloading stats off the PRD web site. Or if you're using an animal companion/familiar from one of them, of course.

For the non-hardcovers, my top recommendations are:

Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Seeker of Secrets
Inner Sea Magic

Silver Crusade **

trollbill wrote:
Several of my characters have Wands of Obscuring Mist simply because it is way too useful, especially in covering retreats and protecting from ranged attacks. I don't think I have ever kicked off an Obscuring Mist that would effect other people at the table without checking with the rest of the players first to get a consensus. I know I am not going to get 100% agreement, but if most the party is at least okay with it then I cast it. But at least I am trying to be as considerate as I can be with the rest of the table. It's not perfect because social interaction will never be perfect, but most of them realize I am at least trying to be considerate of them even if I did something they didn't like. It's really just that simple.

I vehemently disagree with this post! You're being far too reasonable. Stop that!!!

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So... eidolons are only good at tanking starting at level 2, not 1, and it's ALWAYS been that way in every version, not just PFS, and that's your definition of a nerf???

Given all the complaints about summoners being overpowered, I'll just say, "Yes, they're still viable", and leave it at that.

Silver Crusade **

David Bowles wrote:

"Then we assume that everyone puts on their big kids pants and works it out."

Pretty massive assumption given some of the groups I've been in.

Nope, not an assumption at all. This is in the actual rules:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.

If you can't act like an adult and have a mature conversation with the other people at the table when a disagreement arises, then you aren't following that rule.

Silver Crusade **

I have a Sylph Sky Druid with the Weather Domain and Cloud Gazer feat, so I get Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud as domain spells and can see through them (mostly) right from level 1 - no Goz Mask needed.

The whole point is that as a squishy, casting focused druid, I'm going to hide in the back, more than 20 feet from the front line, and cast things at the bad guys who can't see me, because I'll be 10+ feet into the cloud. But the front line will be outside the fog, so I don't interfere with my allies. Obviously, this won't work in really close quarters, but it's also not a dedicated strategy that I intend to use every battle. If my allies want, I can prepare extras of Obscuring Mist and cast it in more fights per day, but I'll coordinate with the team before the adventure.

I've actually only played this PC once so far, and didn't cast Obscuring Mist at all in that one. I actually tried to, for the more traditional reason of the party getting creamed and needing the cover, but I failed a concentration check (the BBEG was right next to me).

Silver Crusade **

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that .pdf and .doc are more common formats than something that some of us have never heard of before the last few posts of this thread. I can't believe someone actually asked what you consider a more common format.

Silver Crusade **

Prethen wrote:
Perhaps the player will chime in here, but I've run and played with a character who has a Wand of Obscuring Mist and he wears a Goz mask (allowing him to freely see through any such obscurity) and uses the combination quite liberally causing all sorts of grief for the bad guys. It's a very clever combination and very powerful in certain situations.

Not really relevant for this thread, but I use a similar trick with one of my characters.

I have a race boon for a Sylph, so I made a Sky Druid with the Weather domain and the Cloud Gazer feat that lets me see through clouds (even magical ones). So I get Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud as my first two domain spells, and I can see through them, right from level 1, no equipment necessary.

I figure this is a great way for a casting focused druid to stay out of trouble. Just sit in the back hiding in a cloud (not even standing at ground level once I hit level 5, since the archetype will let me fly) and cast stuff at the enemies who can't find me to fight back. I've only played the character once so far, and actually didn't get a chance to do this yet, but I figure it'll come up a lot in this character's adventuring career.

Silver Crusade **

The big difference between DR and hardness - any caster can easily throw energy damage at DR. Hardness is even more resistant to energy damage than physical weapons.

So yeah, this year's robots are tougher than equivalent CR demons, because at least demons take damage from Magic Missile.

Silver Crusade **

Ascalaphus wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
BigNorseWolf probably means the Boneyard, not a random graveyard. And it's been made pretty clear that this bit of flavor has no mechanical effect.

Well, it has no mechanical effect on PLAYERS. But this is a story effect ie, why do we fear death more than the loss of the 8,000 gp that I'm sure Guaril has burried in a coffee can in at least half a dozen places including 2 at the pickled imp.

Since Pharasma is the goddess of prophecy as well, it's assumed she already knew that person was going to get raised, and doesn't care; "it's not his time yet, he just died prematurely".

Or if the story needs it. "Your time has come. No backsies"

That could be the case for NPCs I suppose, though I'd say only if the scenario calls for it.

It would explain why Baron Dalsine didn't have enough prestige to get raised from the dead.

Silver Crusade **

Dylos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Psst... The ARG race restriction doesn't apply to FCBs.
But it does apply to archetypes, which bares mentioning because of the faq that Fromper linked.

Yeah, I hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize PFS was more restrictive of this stuff than the core game rules, for half-elves and half-orcs, anyway. I knew it was for aasimars and tieflings.

Silver Crusade **

Even more detailed, and not PFS specific, from the Core Rulebook FAQ

For those too lazy to click the link:

FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

Silver Crusade **

My barbarian who retired from PFS at level 14 has 4 stuffed dragon heads on his wall at home - that's all of them that he killed in his PFS career.

Again, no mechanical benefit - just fluff. On the up side, that also means that no GM ever insisted that I pay for taxidermy services.

Silver Crusade **

At level 3, the 3k cost for adamantine is ALL of your earned cash from the adventures that got you to level 3, assuming you never played up. It might not be expensive by level 5 or 6, but making it practically mandatory in a subtier 3-4 scenario is just bad.

Silver Crusade

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just mention the Varisian Tattoo feat, for +1 CL on one school. On blasting spells, that's usually an extra die of damage.

Silver Crusade **

Definitely start with low tier stuff. What level characters would you be GMing for?

It's always best to start with GMing adventures you've previously played. But some easy low level stuff to prep and run include First Steps 1, The Confirmation, Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, The Frostfur Captives, and The Penumbral Accords. I'm sure others will be along with more recommendations shortly. :)

Silver Crusade **

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Adamantine weapons (and their +1 varieties) are always available: no fame requirement no waiting period.

You can buy adamantine now, and bring it back to the shop to get +1 put on it later. You CAN"T put +1 on it now, and then bring it back to get it turned into adamantine.

So get the adamantine now, get the +1 later.

The issue is that adamantine is extremely expensive, and only necessary under specific circumstances. Given that paladin smites overcome DR, hardness is really the only thing they need to worry about.

Silver Crusade

I once looked into doing a build that revolved around Magical Lineage, Shocking Grasp, Reach Spell, and other metamagic feats. In the end, it's a lot of investment to get a blaster that does enough damage to be useful, but not nearly as much as a truly optimized blaster.

The best blaster is probably the crossblooded sorcerer/admixture wizard cross that PhelanArcetus described. Just switch dragon types, and you can do this with any energy type.

If you're just looking for some lightning blasting on the side while doing other things, you might consider going druid with spells like Call Lightning, Ball Lightning, and Stormbolts. For flavor, take the Weather domain for a small, storm related attack at low levels, for when you don't have enough spells to cast something every round of combat yet. That's what I'm doing with my Sylph Sky Druid, who I'm pretty much planning as a controller/god wizard type, with just a little direct damage, and a heavy emphasis on storms, though I'll probably use more wind than lightning in my storm spells.

Silver Crusade **

Seriously? The one and only thing about the character's personality that you have decided is what deity he worships, and you're going to withhold that information from us while asking us for advice on a PC detail that's usually based on personality?

If you're the type who does everything based on mechanics, that's fine. But why start a thread if you aren't going to give us enough information about the PC to even try and give intelligent answers?

Silver Crusade **

How far into the scenario are you? I only play OTB, not PBP, but if a table's not full, I usually allow people to come in late if it's still early enough in the adventure.

Usually, when there's only 3 players in a scenario, you're supposed to add a pregen controlled by the GM to make 4 Pathfinders in the adventure. You may need to do that if it's too late to add someone.

Silver Crusade **

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Years 0-3 are scaled for 4 players, which is what a home game/mod assumes. PFS took a look at the numbers, and turned out that cramming 6 players at a table was more usual, so they beefed up season 4 and later to compensate, with a sidebar about how to gear down if you DON"T have a swarm of pathfinders.

Is a large group of Pathfinders really a swarm? I thought words like flock, herd, or gaggle might be more appropriate. After all, it's not like they take extra damage from splash weapons.

Walter Sheppard wrote:
David_Bross wrote:

I'm picturing Walter as Ezren throwing his walking stick at people now. "Get off my front lawn!"
This is exactly how I spend my lawn time.

"lawn time"??? You make it sound like the half hour per day the nurses at the old folks home let you wander outside.

CigarSmoker wrote:

Death. And not in the 'oh s@@$ I'm dead, rez me quick' in-game death. More the 'f&!# I'm dead hand me the book I need a new character' after in-game kind of death.

Let me elaborate:
If you are playing at your local friendly game shop and have just started PFS play, meaning you have one character, and for whatever reason you die and can't get a rez you need to start a 1st level character.

This is complete crap if the party is anything over level 3 or 4. Your 1st level character will be ineffective against nearly any encounter in a game. Another death of that player's PC is only one attack, or AoE spell away.

To play again with his friends the player would need to find several games of appropriate levels and do nothing but play until his new character is of a level comparable to the other people in his home game.

As others have said, by level 4 or more, the cost of getting raised from the dead doesn't set you back that much, especially if the group splits it.

Also, I should point out that when I first started playing PFS, it was a home group that used PFS adventures and rules so that we could just play with whoever showed up that week, rather than committing to a real campaign where everyone had to be there every session. When we hit around level 3 or 4, we all started 2nd characters so that we could add some new players to the group, and we'd all be playing at level 1 together.

If you're playing with the same dedicated group every time, mixing and matching characters this way, so you all have characters every 2-3 levels and can always play with each other in any level adventure, just seems like the best move for maximum flexibility. Besides, I like having multiple characters just to try out different character ideas.

Silver Crusade **

You're supposed to use their described combat tactics, if possible. Only if the players completely invalidate those tactics can you do otherwise.

As an example of why, there's an old tier 1-7 adventure where one of the fights at subtier 1-2 is against a level 3 cleric with a zombie. The tactics specifically say that the cleric only uses negative channeling to heal the zombie, not as an offensive weapon against the PCs.

A smart GM would realize that channeling negative against the PCs is actually the smartist tactic that cleric could use, but it would also result in a quick TPK pretty much every time against level 1 PCs. So you're required to use the dumbed down tactics listed in the scenario and have the cleric fight stupidly in order to keep the fight easy enough for the PCs to win.

Silver Crusade

Exocrat wrote:
On the internet, everything is flamable.

In cyberspace, everyone can hear you scream. And ignore you.

Silver Crusade

I could have sworn this was discussed on the forums a long time ago (2-3 years) and everyone agreed that it's not flammable. Apparently, the reason it comes up is that it was flammable in 3.5.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ed Reppert wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
the customer doesn't pay your mistakes" is like "the customer is always right": a blatant falsehood that ignores how running a business actually works in exchange for creating a sense of entitlement.
The customer is always right - except when he's wrong. :-)

Not Always Right

Silver Crusade **

trollbill wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Still, I'm not a forum policeman, I just play one.
Back in my days as a WizO we would have referred to this as being a Messageboard Paladin.

That sounds like a really bad title for a messageboard. I've found that the use of the word "paladin" tends to increase flame wars, never decrease.

Silver Crusade **

Undone wrote:

What do you think are the most obnoxious PFS legal rules.

It can be for OP.
It can be for illogical.
It can be for time consuming.
It can be because it vexes you (like guns or tech for some people).


For me
** spoiler omitted **
For obnoxious adventures
** spoiler omitted **

Spoilers. I do not think they work like you think they work. (TL/DR: Put the name of the thing you're spoiling outside the spoiler, so people have the necessary information when deciding whether or not they want to open the spoiler.)

Silver Crusade **

Mahtobedis wrote:
The way I have been doing it is reporting my tables as the old (analogous) version of a faction.

Me too, and that's also how GenCon is being reported, based on what I'm seeing from the session I played there.

Silver Crusade **

Damanta wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Undone wrote:
I'm worried about the first and last encounter. They seem extremely likely to TPK. I'm unsure what can reasonably be done to not kill the PC's. Outside of hardcore power gamers it seems likely to TPK in the first and last encounters.

The first fight definitely shouldn't TPK. The robots are trying to kick out intruders. If the PCs leave the building, the robots shouldn't pursue. That makes running away a very easy option.

Heh, the robots closed the door to the street on us, we couldn't get out even if we wanted to without getting hacked to pieces.

Ok, that's just a mean GM. That's not in their tactics. Of course, they don't have tactics listed in the scenario. It would actually help if they did. For instance, do the robots attack as soon as someone enters (which actually makes sense if their programming is to repel intruders), or do they wait until everyone enters (as mentioned in a couple of posts in this thread)?

Silver Crusade **

thaX wrote:
You always know Common, at least in PFS. I would also venture to say that the newer book takes precedence, even if one is using the older source for reference/legality.

This came up before, and Mike Brock specifically said that when there's a conflict between two legal sources, you can actually choose which to use.

I remember specifically, because when I made my nagaji character using a boon, roughly a year and a half ago, I could get Tien and Nagaji as starting languages if I used Dragon Empires Primer, or Common and Draconic as starting languages using Advanced Race Guide. Having both books and a character concept that involved being born in the nagaji homeland of Nagajor, I went with the version that gets Tien and Nagaji, and just got Common for free because it says so in the Guide to Organized Play.

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Undone wrote:
I'm worried about the first and last encounter. They seem extremely likely to TPK. I'm unsure what can reasonably be done to not kill the PC's. Outside of hardcore power gamers it seems likely to TPK in the first and last encounters.

The first fight definitely shouldn't TPK. The robots are trying to kick out intruders. If the PCs leave the building, the robots shouldn't pursue. That makes running away a very easy option.

When I played it, my sorcerer didn't even enter the building until that fight was over - I spent the whole time casting from just outside the doors. The robots are smart enough that they would have targeted me if I'd kept at it after my teammates went down inside the room, but that never happened, because my teammates were always in the room drawing their fire.

Silver Crusade **

Netopalis wrote:
rknop wrote:
You can't just have a folio and use it as rerolls for all of your characters. You have to use it. I would dearly love a post from Mike Brock clarifying that having a folio is not sufficient, and that you must be using it for the character in the game, just like the rules actually say.

Actually, Mike issued a clarification to the opposite effect. Link.

Personally, I think this is a good thing. Why? Because we get into ridiculously pedantic arguments over the shirts. Is it being worn? What constitutes being worn? With the folio, you just have it there, and there's no argument over it.

Agreed. I use my Folio all the time. I use it as a decoration, a paperweight, sometimes as a coaster. I just don't use it as a character sheet.

Silver Crusade

Core Rulebook wrote:
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.

The reason you can't use your shield hand for anything else is because the hand is busy carrying the shield. That 15% arcane spell failure chance is for a wizard trying to wear a shield on one arm and cast with the other hand. You can't cast with that hand. The shield's in the way.

Silver Crusade **

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

I don't mind the re roll. Actually I like it.

You are completely right when a re roll can be game changing
** spoiler omitted **

So even though they often don't do me much good, I would much rather them be there.

Spoilers. I do not think they work like you think they work. (TL/DR: Put the name of the thing you're spoiling outside the spoiler, so people have the necessary information when deciding whether or not they want to open the spoiler.)

I like rerolls just the way they are. Most of the time, the rerolls seem to fail anyway.

And half the time, I see people using them on stupid stuff, not even saving them for life and death stuff. Just this past Monday, a player used a reroll at a table I was GMing to try and win a carnival game in the intro part of a longer module, rather than saving it for the combat later. Even funnier is that this particular carnival game required multiple rounds of rolls to win, and he still ended up losing, despite the reroll succeeding.

Back when faction missions counted for prestige, my oracle who spoke the local language of the region we were visiting (Tien) helped someone with dumped charisma by doing their diplomatic faction mission for them, and I rolled a natural 1. This was literally the first die roll of the entire session. I used my shirt reroll and got him the prestige point.

Also, as a GM, I never ask a player if they want to use a reroll. If they don't think about it, I don't offer. This also means I'm not unintentionally giving them a hint (or playing head games) about whether or not the first roll succeeded.

Silver Crusade **

Traskus wrote:

I think this is one of the bigger problems with PFS play overall. It is very difficult (neigh on impossible in some circumstances) to play a good-aligned character or a character with a sense of morality because of the prevalence of murder-hobos within PFS. It is made even more difficult when trying to play someone whose class features are bound to a certain code of conduct (i.e. Clerics and Paladins) and party members are constantly trying to subvert your character.

An example I have is my Cleric of Sarenrae I played up to nearly level 3. But then I ran in a scenario where our party was attacked while on an investigation to find this woman. We managed to force him to surrender and the inquisitor/gunslinger then proceeded to attempt to torture and maim the attacker in front of my Cleric who objected. Later on in the session they inquisitor pulled away from the combat to conduct the same activity on a fallen foe while my Cleric and half the party were still engaged with another enemy.

The head of the Pathfinder Society campaign has already officially ruled that torture is ALWAYS evil and never allowed in PFS play. The inquisitor trying to get away with it despite your cleric's objections could either be a cool role playing moment or an example of the inq player violating the "Don't be a jerk" rule, depending on exactly how he did it. Either way, he shouldn't have been allowed (by the GM) to succeed in torturing a captive without an official alignment infraction.

Silver Crusade **

I haven't played Cultist's Kiss, so I can't speak to that situation.

I have played Severing Ties with a paladin at the table. Since it's part of the opening mission briefing, I don't consider it a spoiler to say that the Pathfinder team is ordered to pretend to be Aspis agents in that adventure. My sorcerer pathological liar with the highest bluff skill in the group was chosen up front to be the group's spokesman, and the paladin just had to follow us around and keep his mouth shut. It really wasn't an issue.

Similarly, in Scars of the Third Crusade, the party paladin had no problem hiding the fact that we're Pathfinders, at least until he decided to reveal himself to a specific NPC. Avoiding that topic of conversation isn't that difficult, even in that adventure where the whole town is talking about Pathfinders.

Hangman Henry IX wrote:

so we've been having the debate about the paladin code since 1st edition, and it is still in the game why? it obviously has caused a lot of drama over the last 30 or so years, mebbe a game where we want to introduce new players shouldn't include it because it doesn't actually enhance gameplay.

i didn't respond to the barb about me not liking LG because i felt it was obvious that is not the case.

We've been having the debate since 1st edition because lots of people don't seem to like the "knight in shining armor" trope and go out of their way to try and find ways to poke holes in it. For those who do like playing those types of characters, they do enhance gameplay, which is why it's still in the game.

And no, it's not obvious that don't have a problem with LG characters. I really believe that's what this entire thread is about. You really seem to only like lawful characters if they "compromise" and act non-lawful sometimes, which paladins aren't supposed to do.

Silver Crusade **

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Coming in late. My personal code of conduct actually forbids me from participating in threads with the word "paladin" in the title, but I failed my Will save, so I fell.

Jiggy wrote:
Hangman Henry IX wrote:
i keep seeing people say that bad players have used paladins as a crutch for bad things, and that it isn't the classes fault, but i don't see a game mechanics difference between this argument and the argument against evil characters.
The difference is that with paladins, you have to either be wrong about how the class works or be intentionally disruptive in order for it to be a problem; whereas with evil PCs, the simple act of playing a genuinely evil PC (or similar banned options) can cause issues all on its own.

The entire thread in a nutshell, right there in the bolded text. That sums up every single paladin code debate in the history of the game, going back to 1st edition AD&D.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Your argument seems to be (and I'm sure you'll correct me) that you don't like good characters, but you're okay with them if they can be browbeaten into giving up their convictions. However the paladins are harder to browbeat because there are actual in game repercussions for them betraying their character concept.

I'm still waiting for Hangman Henry to correct him, because this really does seem to be true to me. If it isn't, then Henry needs to speak up.

I have a lawful good cleric of Sarenrae who other players don't like me playing sometimes, because I won't let people kill prisoners or turn down a surrender offer from enemies. Sarenrae is the goddess of redemption, so I'll always let enemies have a chance to be redeemed. My first paladin character, on the other hand, is an Oath of Vengence "smite them all" type who figures that anyone who starts a fight against the good guys has already made their choice and doesn't deserve redemption, so I don't stabilize fallen foes or prevent my allies from killing them with that paladin. My second paladin is kindler and gentler than that, so more like the cleric.

Hangman Henry IX wrote:
yeh i guess it just seems to me that there are players who will use the threat of loss of class mechanics in order to browbeat other players. i don't think it is good to put tools like that in players' hands.

Those tools aren't in the players' hands. Anyone who thinks they are is in the "wrong about how the class works" category. A paladin doesn't fall if they work with someone who violates their code. The Core Rulebook even explicitly states that they can work with evil for the greater good. So why wouldn't they be allowed to work with my chaotic good prankster bard gnome (in the Silver Crusade!) who lies a lot? Or a cleric of Asmodeus, as in the group I GMed on Monday, where the Asmodean hated the devout Cayden Cailean worshiper more than he hated the group's paladin. At least the paladin is lawful.

And yes, the Pathfinder Society can be seen as the greater good. It's a neutral organization technically, but leaning towards good. Many good people, including paladins, intentionally join just to help aim the organization towards doing more good. That's the entire mission of the Silver Crusade, after all. So even if you're just on a truly neutral "go retrieve this artifact" mission, succeeding in the mission is ALWAYS considered to be "for the greater good", and allows a paladin to work with less honorable people to do so.

Plus, there's the fact that paladins take oaths pretty seriously, and every paladin in the Society presumably swore to "Explore, Report, Cooperate", so they need to obey that "cooperate" party.

Hangman Henry IX wrote:
My issue with the standard paladin code is that it is the one that most frequently comes into conflict with the missions given to pathfinder agents. They are sent in missions where if they do what they are told they break their code (by lying)

I have never seen a PFS mission where every member of the team is required to lie. There are quite a few where you're told not to let anyone know you're Pathfinders. There are one or two where one member of the group has to lie, while the others stand around watching it happen. But the paladin is never specifically ordered to lie. Once again, they're allowed to work with others who don't follow the same code as themselves, as long as it's for the greater good.

I've actually played with paladins at the table in 3 of the scenarios you mentioned earlier where you thought they'd cause problems, and there were never any issues. And for the record, my favorite answer to the "Are you a Pathfinder?" question, when you're supposed to be undercover, is "He does the talking, I'm just the muscle", and point to the bard with the maxed out bluff skill.

TL;DR: It's not that people are trying to water down or ignore the paladin's code, as you say in many of your posts. It's that the code isn't nearly as restrictive as you seem to think it is, and never was.

Silver Crusade **

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Silver Crusade

I'm thinking bard. She's supposed to be a very charismatic, inspiring figure and uses a lasso (bards get whip proficiency, and you can take some feats to be able to grapple with it eventually).

Silver Crusade **

If you're only using traits from the Advanced Players Guide, you can just bring the free trait document download instead, which contains all the APG traits. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find that document right now - the link in the Guide to Organized Play for it seems to be busted.

And I agree that nobody's going to call you out on the Tian language, and base tiefling is alos in Blood of Fiends.

So it looks like you only need Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, Blood of Fiends, and Inner Sea Combat, unless your "and some more" is also necessary stuff. The hard covers are usually only $10 for the PDFs, and the splat books are probably light enough to carry a couple of them. So you should be able to do this without spending too much on PDF duplicates of books you already own.

And frankly, most GMs won't call you out on it. You might be able to get away with photocopies of the important pages from your hard copy books, in case they need to look up the rules, and just explaining how far you had to travel.

Silver Crusade

Oddly, my group didn't confront the mayor when they found out he was evil. Instead, the party rogue just decided to go stalk him, by himself. Because of the high stealth skill, I had a hard time getting the mayor to the clearing for the final ritual unnoticed, since the rogue decided to stalk him from the time he left the feast. I probably should have had the mayor send some cultists to distract the PCs at the feast, so he could leave unnoticed, but I didn't think of it.

So the rest of the party dealt with the ambush from Shel's family, then cleared out the cultists and spider-lady at the Chenowicz House without the rogue. The mayor walked right by the house to the corn maze, and the rogue decided not to go in with him, which is when he rejoined the rest of the party.

It was a 6 player group, pretty optimized, so they didn't have any major problems with any of the fights. Even the last one wasn't a big deal for them, and only took about 3 rounds, with no real risk of any PCs dying.

Still a fun time. They really got into the role playing, with one person actually using a shirt reroll to succeed at one of the games at the festival, instead of saving it for the later combat. They whole party joined in the 3 legged race, including a lame oracle, and had a fun time playing that out.

Silver Crusade **

Well, they were all legal for use at GenCon. If you still have one of those printed pages from GenCon, I'd think it would be legal to use it again. But until the downloads are available, it's best to treat them as unavailable.

Silver Crusade

This one's among my favorite adventures that I've played/GMed in Pathfinder Society. I'll be GMing it for the second time tomorrow, and I see that I have a paladin signed up, so I just want to thank everyone for the suggestions of how to handle Detect Evil, if it comes up, since it probably will.

Silver Crusade **

gnoams wrote:

The room is 60 feet across, the chairs are 25 feet from the vent.

** spoiler omitted **

Going from memory, as it's been a while since I last GMed this adventure, but...

The Disappeared:
I forgot that it was triggered on "approaching" the book shelves. But I always assumed that the bookshelves were one sided, so in order to approach the side that got you attacked, you had to be between the book shelves, near the table and chairs. Standing "behind" those bookshelves, near the vent, shouldn't get you attacked.

Silver Crusade **

DM Beckett wrote:
Parody wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Fromper wrote:
I'm a little disappointed that The Disappeared didn't crack the top 5. That's my all time favorite.
** spoiler omitted **

Let me join you:

** spoiler omitted **
Pretty much this. ** spoiler omitted **

It sounds like your GM might have messed that encounter up, though it's possible a member of your group got ahead of himself and made it tougher on you even if the GM did handle it right.

The Disappeared:
If he had the chairs attack the first guy to enter the room before the others got out of the vent, then he probably jumped the gun. The chairs start out resting around the table in the middle of the book shelves, and they don't start moving until someone comes near them (I forget if it's within 5 or 10 feet).

Assuming a normal group will get everyone down out of the vent system before they spread out to start exploring the room, that means everyone should be able to get in on the fight easily enough. It's possible your first guy in the room didn't wait for everyone else, but that means he just messed up by not being careful and triggered the fight early.

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