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I'm not Anonymous Visitor 163 576, but I will add my 2 cents. We are playing in order (and still playing), but I have made several changes and added side quests (based on PC interests) to make it flow more coherently. These are the changes I added (not including changes to stats, encounter difficulty, etc):

1)

Spoiler:
I was bored with the sewer encounters so I added an insanely paranoid apprentice of Sandor (from 5) who lived in terror that his master would find him and punish him for the theft of some books. It was a fun battle and through the entire adventure they have been trying to figure out who Sandor is. They sold his books at the Dusk Market. Not necessary but it was fun.

2)

Spoiler:
A PC sorcerer chose to have the campaign background where he had a famous family member and he decided his brother was an actor who was assassinated for treason. His mother was told by Hellknights that unless she paid an exorbitant fine, her son's body would be sold for magical experiments at the school of necromancy. She offered herself into indentured servitude to give her son a burial. When the PCs tried to help, I introduced Paralictor Chard and Signifier Verennie (both from 6) , the former being somewhat reasonable and the latter being cruel.

3)

Spoiler:
The bard and rogue wanted to do the entertainer/pickpocket con at character creation. I didn't think that would go over on the streets of Westcrown, so it was modified so that the rogue was a visiting low ranking noble and the bard performed at private parties held by the nobles. I created a side quest for them, while the rest of the party was hunting shadow beasts. Since the rogue was looking for "jobs" at the Dusk Market, a contact offered them good money for an art heist, to steal a painting from a secret room at the Oberigo Estate.

4)

Spoiler:
At the party, I added guests from book 2 and book 6. In fact, the rogue had stayed with the Ciucci's, who rent out to noble boarders, when he first arrived in Westcrown. I had Oberigo invite both the Mhartis family and the Ciucci's, along with the mayor, because he delighted in their rivalry for the mayors favor. Also present were Delour Alamaxa, the opera diva, Vuiper Ghivel and Sascar Tilernos. This side quest allowed me to present some of the social and political issues in Westcrown, Iltar Marts' drinking problem and ineptitude and Deliliee's budding wild side, Ghivel's cheapness with his family and little hints of his feelings for Chammady, who Delilee mentioned quite often and seemed to idolize.

5)

Spoiler:
I made the painting of the heist a work called The Binding of the Twin with clues to the Nessian Spiral. The buyer was Sian, who was too busy at the mayor's manor to steal it herself. She killed the contact and double-crossed the PCs and they just managed to escape with their lives, poisoned and on the run. Knowing they were being followed (they used the painting as armor to get out with their lives) they stayed at an inn rather than lead her to the base. Eventually a swap was made and Sian became a highly memorable villain, who terrified them when she appeared later in 2. It also raised questions in their mind because the amount being paid was more than they felt the painting was worth, so it seemed the tiefling wanted it for some other reason.

6)

Spoiler:
My party's cleric is a secret worshipper of Sarenrae who came here to spread light and hope. She is building a congregation among the poor and downtrodden and the homeless who hide in fear of the night huddled around fires in the ruins. She has also created a connection with the Bellflower Network (halfling underground railroad). I made a character at the Dusk Market be a halfling aasimar who sells silvered weapons and holy water, stakes, etc. Things that are frowned upon in the city. She is a part of the Bellflower Network.

7)

Spoiler:
I enhanced the differences in Arael and Janiven's approach, making Arael want to change things slowly and help without upsetting the status quo, while Janiven would gladly overthrow the government. When the PC cleric approached the CoW to see if they would help the BN, I played up the schism. The argues at length then planned to reconvene for a vote the next evening. When they reconvened, I interrupted with the 5 pillars.

8.)

Spoiler:
My players didn't stop the mayor's flight, so I played up the discord after 4. The bard, who had taken the mayor's badge of office when offered the contract, offered himself as mayor pro temp. In our last session, I was haranging him with disgruntled nobles, bankrupt merchants, a city in terrible disrepair and disorder and with no treasury to speak of (because the PCs had looted it when adventuring!). They are doing their best to put things right, raise taxes without oppressing the poor and merchants (and alienating the nobles), deal with plots, appoint a head of the dottari since Iltar is missing, uncover plots and opposing factions while still trying to find Ilnerik and foil the new leadership of the Council of Thieves.

9.)

Spoiler:
Since the rogue put out feelers for information on all of the above, I plan to have it naturally lead them to 5. When 5 is done, the return to the condition in 6 will feel natural, because of everything that happened after 4.

10)

Spoiler:
Almost forgot. I rewarded paranoia and a high perception roll with some on the spot spies for the council. It didn't end up leading to much information but it was very engaging for the party and probably added to the sense of them having made enemies of the powerful and shadowy council.

11.) I had also added another secret society of people amassing a secret collection of the books that the Hellknight revisionists were burning. It added to atmosphere, gave them another rebellious organization and may supply information about potential allies against Throne in the future.

I suspect that my party will want a real rebellion, so I am planting seeds now and I have ideas for allies.


We are now heading into Mother of Flies and I'm heading your advice on the Totemrix. In addition, to encourage my PCs to combine the artifacts and nullify the Totemrix, I plan to have it react much as the Morrowfall did after Bisby went insane: it will pulse with darkness and continue to summon shadows, while also creating rifts to shadow with more and more powerful beings emerging to threaten Westcrown.


Name: Baraddhu
Race: Half-Elf
Classes/levels: Sorcerer Level 4
Location: The Tower of Perpetuity in the Asmodean Knot
Catalyst: Shadows
The Gory Details: The party actually backed out of this room in our first session in the Knot, slept in the attic then returned, fresh, to revisit the room, which already had two shadows from the last session. However, they used poor strategies. Instead of running through to the next area, they sent the stealthed rogue to sneak attack the shadows. Once they realized their error, the rogue was low strength and the shadows were increasing. When it got to the point where the rogue had to run or risk death/undeath with one attack, the low-strength sorcerer was positioned so that he could not run without incurring attacks of opportunity and so that he was the closest target for all the shadows. The shadows hit him one too many times before he could get away.

We use hero points, but the PC had already used his last hero point in the last session, so he could not cheat death. The party paladin asked if he could use HIS hero point to cheat death for another (at the time, he was falling in an endless loop, trying to land in the corridor near the prison cells). I ruled that if he made his acrobatics to land back on the same side, spent the hero point and used a channel energy, he could cheat death for his comrade, as a one-time boon from Iomedae. It worked! But, alas, the sorcerer took another hit and died anyway.

At least the runecurse died with that player. He had taken it for the good of the party because his will was stronger. The player is rolling up a wizard who will join the Children of Westcrown after they exit the dungeon.


Rakshaka, I misunderstood you when you said you used her in the interconnected chambers with the endless floor/ceiling loop effect because the chambers connected to the shadow room have the same effect. I thought you meant you were having Sian use hit and run tactics on them while they were in the shadow room, which would be very deadly. I hadn't read through the entire dungeon yet, since I didn't expect our next session to progress that far. I realize now you meant B21 and not B3, B5a and B5b.


We have mat with hex grid on one side. Good idea.

jabberwocky wrote "One other thing: I ran the Abernian's Folly adventure like a heist."

I love it! My group eats that stuff up. I actually ran a side adventure for my bard and rogue PCs involving an art heist in Eirtain Oberigo's mansion during a party. I was planning a bit of Scooby Do-ing around Aberian's Folly to find the attic.

However, they already have some clues about the nature of the Knot. They heard rumors about the previous mayors at the Dusk Market. A dealer in exotic creatures used to supply Dargentu's imp, Livia, you see.

I most definitely plan to play up the terror of it. Great advice.


Rakshaka, what was your adjusted spawn rate? Or did you just adjust mid-game to whatever you felt the party could handle? Also, did you wait to spawn shadows until the PCs found the mirrors in the secret room or did you spawn them as written, after they had spent 4 rounds in the Tower of Perpetuity (endless stairs)? How did your party find the secret room with the mirrors?

I really love the idea of having Sian do a hit and run in the Tower of Perpetuity. Though having both Sian AND shadows could get very intense, very quickly. How did your party handle it?

More importantly how quickly did they figure out that they need to jump over to the corridor to get out of the endless loop, especially under pressure of dual threats? If you have any advice to share on how you described and handled that specific area, I'd welcome it.

The imp RP idea is hysterical. My party would have a ball with that. Well played.

Kalindlara, allips are a neat idea for a substitute. The madness they exhibit and inspire seems like a good fit for the Asmodean Knot, between Doskivari's Rose Red-style obsessive building and Dargentu's tormented victims.

Manny, I was considering the quick Young template on the shadows. Did you try it? I've read some great advice here but I was hoping to find out how the changes panned out in actual play.


Our group finished the play and they got through the seven courses of the Cornucopia in our last session. Next session, they will be exploring Aberian's Folly and will probably begin the Asmodean Knot.

Any tips for running it? I see that many people adjusted the shadow encounter. If you did, I'd love to hear how you adjusted the encounter and CR and how it worked out for your group.

I am also very curious how others described The Tower of Perpetuity: the stairs, the pits, the cues/clues provided to the players that they may need to jump to get off the endless stair. I would really appreciate some help here because, while the concept is neat, I'm afraid it could play very awkwardly.

Also, how did you play Sian? I have already introduced her, because I added a character-driven side adventure that involved stealing a painting with clues to the infernal engine's creation. Sian was the anonymous buyer but decided to kill the middleman, take his identity and then kill the party and take the painting without paying. It nearly worked. The poisoned players were able to escape with their lives by holding the painting hostage and fleeing, but they were followed. She eventually came through with the deal and paid for the painting, as initially planned. In the process, she left quite an impression on the party. In fact, some of the party members already suspect that she is the missing maid and they all admire and fear her. (I think our rogue also has a bit of a crush) I would hate to ruin all that delicious buildup by making the Knot encounter anticlimactic.


These are brilliant! Thank you so much for taking the time to share them. They will definitely come in handy for my group.


Rakshaka, is it too late to ask you for the details of "The Ruby of Maledov"? My group is halfway through Bastards of Erebus and I am looking for ways to smooth out the AP and tailor it to my PCs. (Your review and fixes are a big help, along with some other great recommendations on the board.)

One of my PCs is a bard actor who works in concert with a gentleman thief. (The bard distracts with his private performance while the thief burgles the manor) I have already created a side quest party for those two. Another chose the Child of Infamy campaign trait and his late brother was an acting rival of Thesing (who quite likely turned him over the Hellknights for treason, resulting in his execution). All three chose to attend Thesing's "Dowager Princess" opera and my gentleman thief snuck into the dressing room to sabotage his makeup before the show and, having seen a half-finished love letter to Calseinica, was sure to sit next to her during the play and is planning to woo her from under Thesing.

Another play, in celebration of their accomplishment, would be lovely.


Fabius, I think I may just let the letter stand on its own and see how my PCs react. If they jump on the connection, I will leave it alone and if I feel they need more, your idea for an overheard discussion is perfect.

I had wanted some hint that my PC was stealing from a member of the Council, just to up the tension, but you are right, Fabius: Oberigo is too smart for that. The Council remained hidden for a very long time precisely because the old guard was shrewd. The only reason there are hints now, is because new blood is stirring things up.

I decided to take the art heist in a different direction:

Spoiler:
The painting is titled "The Binding of the Twin" and was painting long ago by a member of the royal family who was known for his artistic bent. It is a scene of the binding of Leibdaga by the Thrune family mages. The Dusk Market contact's anonymous collector is actually Chammady. She knew of the painting because Oberigo once met with her in his secret room. She immediately realized that the painting could hold the key to the secrets of the pit devils imprisonment but that it would require detailed study. They discussed it and decided that sending in Sian to steal the painting was too risky, as she could not jeopardize her upcoming mission in Aberion's Folly (not to mention that her discovery by Oberigo could risk exposing their plans). Instead, they decided to make use of the Dusk Market contact. They plan to have Sian collect the painting and cover their tracks by disposing of the middle man - and potentially the art thief, as well.

Jabberwoky,

Spoiler:
I like how you introduced Vanwynne. I have already alluded to her disappearance, however, so I will take that in another direction.


This was an amazing resource! Thank you for sharing. The first thing our group did after they rescued Arael and returned the horses was to locate then visit the Dusk Market, to unload the Hellknight armor they had scavenged from unconscious knights. This post was my guide and my group loved it.

I added a couple regulars, to suit my purposes:

The Zookeeper: a bent, wiry, greasy old man who sells both caged animals and animal components, magical and mundane.

Spoiler:
I used him so that others could gossip about how former mayor Dargentu Vheed sent his imp Livia to buy certain creatures from him and it was rumored that he used them for sadistic purposes

Hope: Aasimar halfling female, with a silver tipped silvanshee feline named Lickwhisker. Her real name is long forgotten and she adopted her current name because she is a symbol of hope to the halflings as a contact for the underground railroad. She also vends holy items, silvered weapons and wooden stakes and things one might need for fighting devils and vampires. I thought a black market in an evil city should have at least one good vendor, working against the establishment.

Spoiler:
She asked my PCs if they knew Vahnwynne Malkistra or if they'd seen her around. Hope explained that she used to come often after she arrived in town but that she hadn't seen her for weeks.


Lord Fyre, perhaps have them run into Chammady's dismissed handmaiden, still scarred and bitter from Chammady's attack many years ago with a wine bottle after she playfully insulted Eccardian? She could be attending another noblewoman or in a different, less reputable line of work due to her scar.

Fabius, good point. But what to overhear? I want to raise the question of the Council in their minds but not hit them with it like a brick.


I just started DMing the Council of Thieves AP (we're about halfway through Bastards of Erebus). This is my first post but I've been lurking and mining the CoT AP message boards for good advice and it seems the common consensus is that, while it is a unique and fun AP, it suffers from lack of foreshadowing and thus, continuity.

I’ve found some ways to strengthen the PCs rivalry with Thesing, introduce several key NPCs earlier so they have more impact later and make the PCs feel more tied to Westcrown. However, I would like to hint at the Council of Thieves itself.

Before the Bastards of Erebus portion, I have a player-focused event planned for two members. Our party has a bard and noble-background rogue whose joint concept is that the bard plays events and the rogue uses the distraction to steal. Instead of a pickpocket working the crowd (which would be ill-tolerated in Cheliax) they work noble homes, easy enough in a city which values the arts and where the parties are known for their debauchery and excess.

I had Eirtain Oberigo invite them to a private party at Vira Oberigo. The bard will perform select soliloquies from favorite dramas while the gentleman burglar uses the opportunity to try to find a valuable painting in a secret room (A contact at the Dusk Market informed them that he had a buyer for the painting and they negotiated 75/25% split).

Spoiler:
Little does the rogue know that Oberigo is one of the most respected members of the legendary Council of Thieves.
However, to add to the excitement and to foreshadow the Council, I’d love for him to find some hint, perhaps a letter.

Any suggestions? I have a general idea of what I want but I’m at a loss on the specifics.