Montlarion Jeggare

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Alienfreak wrote:


4th HD ability up on Intelligence or a headband of vast intellect +2 (he now even got a new skill...cool).
He now is a sentient creature, speaks one language, can take any feat or skill he wants.
No more handle animals or training. Just tell him what you want him to do.

Animals have 2 + int mod skills, therefore a 3 int companion has a -4 modifier and does not get an extra skill. He would need at least 10 int to get a second skill point.

Secondly although he is a intelligent animal the faq from awhile back clarrified that

Paizo Blog:Monkey See, Monkey Do? An FAQ on Intelligent Animals wrote:


The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.

So make sure you keep handle animal invested


Dr.Rant wrote:

Hi guys, I'm about to use wraiths on my party. These have a d6 con drain attack

from my understanding of con damage won't the afflicted person be dead long before 0 con? Maybe I'm reading the rule wrong. Please let me know if my math is off. example 10 level fighter 90 hp (con =16) fails fort save and the roll is a 6 doing 6x10 HD, and the fighter losses 60 hp. Next hit 2nd wraith (crappy roll again example) fails save this time looses 4 con 4x 10 = 40 hp loss dieing fighter on ground 2 hits.
Am understanding this rule?

Shouldn't wraiths be a much higher cr than 5?

If the wraith rolled a six your con would go from say 16 to 10 resulting in a drop of a +3 modifier and the loss of 3*10 HP, so 30 HP.

Wraiths are fine for the CR, my players while scared rarely die to them.


Scrogz wrote:

The more I look at this the more I think it has to be a troll.

"MW Falchion…….+10…..2d4+6…18-20/x2"

at fist level?

Is this really supposed to be a PC?

Cut the stat bonsu down to +4 at the max. Lose the ratial hit dice. 50' base move both running and flight? As a PC?

Has to be a troll.

Looks to me more like a super enthusiastic newish player judging by the amount of work it takes to type up a stat block. I think many players when given an enormous number of options (sounds like you've got all of 3.x and pathfinder to look through) will sometimes go overboard without meaning to. That said if your GM and other players all have made Astral Deva allies/foes you probably wont see much of a problem. Personally however, I wouldn't let one of my players go with a straight conversion, more like +2 dex +2 cha -2 wis, reduce skill bonus to +2 drop uncanny dodge, elemental immunities, tongues, all the lesser deva powers but cure light/detect evil/aid, drop see invisibility and favored enemy. I'd probably want to get rid of the 'Good Subtype' and make the Astral Deva a native outsider, although even there its on the upper end of what I'm comfortable to run a game with.

The uncanny dodge and favored enemy are class features that shouldn't be given away in a racial build; otherwise strange and unusual multi-class options or feet combinations may creep into the game, and make classes who have to level to get them feel somewhat cheated. I wouldn't give a strength bonus directly as it would make class choices feel like you're being shoehorned into a role (battle oracle).

If your interested there was some interesting discussion on race creation in the (advanced race?) play-test awhile back; I'd start looking there and talk to your GM to work something out.

Based on my own best guess at what seems fair you'd have:
(lesser) Astral Deva (native outsider)
no racial HD
30 ft speed
+2 dex +2 cha -2 wis
Darkvision 60 ft / Low Light vision
+4 on fort saves vs poison
+2 on perception checks
lesser deva powers: 1/day cast aid/cure light/detect evil with CL = to HD
Fire Resistance 5 Electricity Resistance 5

Might still be a bit much but that looks about right to me.


Troubleshooter wrote:
Oh my. Greater Beast Totem would give the whole stack Pounce.

That is really creative; I never thought about using a barbarian. I can picture it though; barbarian standing atop a pile of his comrades.


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Crimson Jester wrote:

~Twitch~

I was expecting something along the lines of an eagle companion riding the wizards outstretched arm while he in turn rides his horse.

You could do that but remember that then the wizard and horse would move on the eagle initiative, and that the eagle could try to use some of the ride skill checks on the wizard (I doubt he would listen, but picturing the eagle attempting to 'spur mount' by clawing at the wizard face makes me smile)


Troubleshooter wrote:

I disagree. The gnome is the pixie's mount, but the gnome's mount is not the pixie's mount.

On the other hand, because you are considered to occupy the space of your mount, and your mount is considered to occupy the space of his mount, then the smallest creature would be considered to occupy the largest mount's space.

I agree about the gnomes mount not being the pixies. As to occupying space I thought that might be the case and its good to hear I'm not completely off base. This means that the pixie could be attacked from any of the tiles the horse occupies making it a much 'larger' target for things like placing AoE spells.


Bruunwald wrote:


Difference is those things make sense. My problem with all of this is, how can you take Ride checks on something you're not riding? Because if only the mount at the bottom is doing any actual running or walking, then only the rider immediately atop him (whom I assume is in control of him) is actually riding. Everybody else is just balancing on a really superfluous and dangerous Janga tower.

I am sure this would be quite a spectacle. But one I'd be quite over by the second time, as GM. And sick of by the third time. Too many checks to be made. And can a horse even use its hoof attacks while lying atop a running bear?

Edit: Oh good! Another sentence probably never uttered or written before in all of history.

Ah I see I made an error earlier. A bear max size as animal companion would be medium, large with animal growth. So for every mention of bear previously replace it with your favorite large druid animal companion including the Ape, Camel, Big Cat, Horse (horse riding a horse), snake, wolf, ect. I will now assume a druid horse companion.

This is why I'm asking the question because much like you I too find the concept confusing and am unsure if it would work. According to the rules, a mount does not need to be doing any actual motion itself; for instance a man could 'ride' a horse that is itself standing perfectly still on a moving conveyer belt. Is the man still riding? Or as you say 'balancing'? Movement is not the issue for mounted rules. Another way of looking at it is you direct your mount to move, but to move he has to direct his mount; alternatively because the entire tower is intelligent you could broadcast your intention, using compass points.

As for the spectacle, yes it would be funny. Particularly because first round Paladin Mounts horse and moves into combat. On druid turn cast enlarge animal on his horse, AC horse moves in. Second round, horse paladin team (body) mount druid horse(legs) while eagle druid fly's up then dives down to mount paladin's helmet (head). The head would then control the entire stack as it would all move on the druid's next initiative. The ride checks wouldn't however be any more complicated then having three people fight mounted combat. Same type of checks, stay in saddle, fight with combat mount. Just you'd have 2 players make those checks, twice for paladin and once for druid, so not that many more rolls.

I think this can happen:

lets suppose that the Paladin somehow becomes unconscious, yet his military saddle allows him to stay on the horse. As he would no longer be in control, the chain of command breaks and the horse now controls the larger horse(remember the horse has 5 int).

Another scenario; the druid horse gets knocked unconscious, collapsing causing EVERYONE to fall on the ground, possibly prone.
From prd:
If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.

to keep the bear in the equation one could have the horse turn huge, enlarge paladin to large, have the bear ride the paladin and the eagle the bear - I do not think its smart though, as it requires too many actions.

Lastly have the tower charge and watch the d20's rain from the heavens. If you can find a way to give everyone in the tower pounce turn rain into hailstorm of fun.

as to if a horse can make hoof attacks while riding a bear my only advice is ask your DM. I think it could still make kicking motions and since it only has two hoof attacks, you could assume the back hoofs are held in by straps much like a person’s feet, and the body of the horse could lie atop the bears. Thus freeing the front hooves for attacking whilst maintaining some balance. I'm not saying in real life this would or could ever work (intelligent 2000 lb 15 foot long bear? Let it eat the horse and RUN)


Vinland Forever wrote:
Wait. So the Druid is riding the Paladin, the Paladin is riding the horse, and the horse is riding the bear? How does a horse ride a bear, even a huge-sized one? This sounds interesting, but the horse riding a bear thing puts me off a bit. It's confusing.

The bear is clearly not suitable as a mount for a horse, so the horse would suffer a -5 to ride checks. I assume you could get a special saddle made for the while its a large sized bear (pony saddle) which would enlarge with the bear when you cast enlarge animal to become a horse saddle.

stuff from ride skill:

You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus. If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.

Of course with something as silly as that I would expect some DM's to veto, but I believe that it works by the rules.


After reading through the rules section on mounts and the ride skill I wanted to know if a small creature can ride a medium creature riding a large creature. If they are all ‘suitable mounts’ for each other would there even be a penalty?

If it does work:
Are they adjacent to the creatures on top/below them, or possibly in some strange manner the whole stack as for you are treated as being in your mounts tile, so in the example above would a small creature be treated as occupying the same space as the large creature because the medium creature is treated as occupying a large space?

Reason for asking:

Its my turn to play after Dming Kingmaker (our group rotates between another player and myself for the duty) and so after working with the group paladin I had this idea: Druid Paladin Leaning Tower of Pain

Wildshaped Eagle Druid riding Paladin riding Special Paladin horse mount riding enlarged druid animal companion animal Bear Companion (huge size), all of which have teamwork feat Paired Opportunist to gain extra attacks of opportunity and the druid has a few levels of hungry ghost monk for Viscous Stomp feat and the ability to knock opponents prone with monk kick. Essentially if an opponent would provoke an AoO from one member of the tower, all of components could attack. (The horse has 5ish int and the Bear has 3 with stat bonus so everyone has ranks in ride skill)


harmor wrote:

Would this be a Knowledge (Religion)? And if so what is the DC?

We determined that channeling is not a spell so we couldn't use Spellcraft.

As far as I know there is no way to identify Su abilities; knowledge arcana gives info on spells.


Some Random Dood wrote:
jasharen wrote:

I have a question to those that are saying that the Dex bonus is no longer a Dex bonus, and therefore using the ability to add INT to the dex bonus would not work.

Once in play, is that 'still' no longer a dex bonus? Because if its an INT bonus and NOT a dex bonus now, does that mean that the character is immune to effects that deny his dex bonus to AC?

If not, then the INT 'modifier' is now the dex bonus, and should qualify. :)

Interesting point, I think that would indeed be correct. With mind over metal you are no longer using dex to determine your AC. So anything that causes you to lose your dex bonus to AC should have no effect. But if there was something that lowered or caused you to lose your int bonus it would of course affect your AC.

That’s an interesting effect of interpreting it as such and leads to some odd scenarios. If it acted as such (which I don't believe) it would lead to an ability that grants pseudo free uncanny dodge with the extra benefit of keeping int to AC when immobilized, unconscious or on a feint attempt. That seems more than a little strange to me.


Rory wrote:


That ability adds to a "dodge bonus to AC" while the paladin CHA thing is a "deflection bonus to AC". Is that the same thing? Meh. I'll let someone else discuss that. It's certainly better than nothing

Is "Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27" Pathfinder or 3rd party?

I think much of 3.5 material is considered "house rule" territory these days. If we can stick with Pathfinder, we can answer it with more certainty. If you are allowed to use 3.5 material in your campaign, then that would be a moot point.

Cheliax: empire of devils is a pathfinder product. I mearly mentioned the 3.5 material as a point of interest; such material is not included nor elaborated upon in anything I've posted here (I agree with your opinion that 3.5 on pathfinder boards is regarded in the same vein as house rules)

Edit houuse to house.


Rory wrote:
FoxAdriftAtSea wrote:
First off what does "OB" stand for? I know OP generally means original poster.

Oops... I meant OP, typo.

I know we disagree on the interpretation, and that's okay.

Did you ever think of another stat bonus that added twice to the same thing?

I haven't yet, but I'm not up on all the rules, especially UM and UC. That might set up a precedence, rather than this question on iterpretation setting up the first instance of that.

Hmm as to a stat bonus added twice to say AC I can and have thought of one further up in the thread, posted shortly after your question.
FoxAdriftAtSea wrote:


As to precedence to having a bonus twice as far as I know in Pathfinder there is no other ability that modifies something twice other than a paladins smite (Cha to AC) plus this feat

Osyluth Guile (Combat)P:

Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27

You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.

Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.

Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defence action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.

Thanks to the archive of nethys for easy feat database

So Palys could get double CHA to AC vs one opponent that they smite. I guess thats sort of a history.

I know also in 3.5 there were several ways to get an ability mod applied twice or even three times to AC, so its sort of a tradition.


Leongorance wrote:


can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class.

I disagree.Instead of and in place of have exactly the sAme meaning,at least in my language:)And therefore i think it become INT mod to AC which isnt stackabile with other one.

Lets say you have green cup and red cup.Green cup is on the shelf ATM.If you put red cup IN PLACE OF green cup than on that shelf will be red cup,and green cup will be removed,no more on the shelf.Thats why you cant add it on dex modifier,because it is now INT in place of DEX.

"and a high AC is hardly game breaking considering other methods can achieve equally great AC (not including spell shield bonus- it is a limited resource)".

Well you use arcane pool which can get pretty high,and for one point you have your AC against that target untill start of your next turn,meaning it counts for every target attack on you in his round,which is kinda great for 1 arcane point.Also you said other methods can achieveequally high AC.Well not sure about that.

Lets say all those are stacking.You can get easily +10 INT modifier later,if not even bhigher.So base 10+2x10 int+bracers of armor+8,+5 amulet of NA,+ 5 ring of deflection,+1 dodge,+1 haste.If you have Combat expertise,another +6.So in total 56+(spell shield(+10) against one target),so its 60-66AC against single target and 50-56 AC against all other.I dont see which classes can get equally high AC as this one tbh:)

First off high AC only helps vs meele; I'll note several things which may make you view it as 'less over powered'. The bonus to AC does NOT increase the CMD; any character following this build will be relitvely weak towards CMB attempts. Furthermore The saves are average or below average, and any character focusing on AC as much as you state would have very little other gear, dropping their damage potential, and if your denied dex you'd lose the bonus to AC. Lastly I don't know anyone who would try this in any game I've played/run because it exists as an thought exercise more than a playable build.

I can see where your coming from Leongorance; what you describe would be a logical interpretation of the rules. The problem being is that sadly the rules often depart from the land of logic and reason. I have said my views on the issue, and they have not changed- should you feel further need to probe the issue feel free to post it in the rules forum and send me a link. Otherwise I see this as a fruitless effort between sensible people. The internet being the internet it is difficult to understand tone but believe me I truly have appreciated your feedback! It made me think VERY hard on the issue to come up with the responses I have.


Sandbox wrote:

What about an oracle who replaces their dexmod with their cha mod...if said oracle gain canny defense somehow... Would canny defense fail to apply as well because now cha replaces dex?

I think the real issue is that people are set against applying the same mod twice. What about a monk with the 3.5 saint template?

Ya several PRC's allowed for stat switching and stacking in 3.5 off the top of my head there was some massive CON stack that could be done with about 2 or 3 of em combined.


First off what does "OB" stand for? I know OP generally means original poster.

Rory wrote:


Mind Over Metal uses an INT mod to AC. It is used in place of the DEX mod, but it is still an INT mod to AC.

Canny Defense uses a DEX mod to AC. It adds an INT mod to the DEX mod, but it is still a DEX mod to AC.

Neither feat allows you an INT mod to AC plus a DEX mod to AC as far as I can see.

Quote:
can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class.

First off I want to say I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, but rather attempting to demonstrate what I view as a very real reading of the rules. With that said, "in place of" seems to be the key wording in Mind over Metal. This means that while your using your Int mod in the place of your Dex mod for determining AC all it does is replace the numerical value and nothing more. Therefore you would still technically be using the Dexterity modifier in the AC equation. If it were to work so that the two did not stack it would read "instead of" or something equally exclusionary.

Armor Class:

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:

10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers

Because Canny Defence then adds onto your dexterity modifier, it should still work.


Vasantasena wrote:

No point buy, regular roll (3d6) for each, rolled failrly good numbers plus Noble Drow modifiers.

Also wearing the following
+1 Keen Scimitar
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Artisan's Outfit (sexy endrowed little white dress)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4
Celestial Armor
Cloak of Resistance, +1
Headband of Vast Intelligence, +4: Disable Device,
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Ioun Stone, Orange Prism
Ring of Protection, +2
Thieves' tools
Whip (dominatrix like rp)
Cloak of protection +1

Hmm... looks good but I might adjust it so you have at least a +2 or 3 weapon and spend the extra feat you dont have listed on improved critical.


The worst thing about this is I can see completely where you are coming from with this, and while I believe that this is not a RAI situation it is very possible within the rules

Rory wrote:


As such, there should only be two cases:

1) Resolve Mind Over Metal and then Canny Defense.

Metal Over Magic replaces the character's DEX bonus to AC with an INT bonus to AC.

Canny Defense adds INT bonus to DEX Bonus to AC, but you are no longer using your DEX bonus, so Canny Defense is no longer applicable.

Is there any precedence that a stat applies a bonus twice to anything at all?

As to precedence to having a bonus twice as far as I know in Pathfinder there is no other ability that modifies something twice other than a paladins smite (Cha to AC) plus this feat

Osyluth Guile (Combat)P:

Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27

You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.

Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.

Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defence action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.

Thanks to the archive of nethys for easy feat database

So Palys could get double CHA to AC vs one opponent that they smite. I guess thats sort of a history.

now onto the meat of the issue

Canny Defence adds INT bonus to DEX Bonus to AC, but you are no longer using your DEX bonus, so Canny Defence is no longer applicable.

I think you are still using your DEX- albeit not your dex modifier, but rather your int modifier as per Mind over metal. Therefore I believe Canny Defence could be applied legally to the Dex bonus.

Edit Post Monster ate my reply so I had to retype it


Leongorance wrote:


It doesnt matter where from it originates.Problem is those two are same bonuses on first place.ONLY dodge bonuses stacks.That way you could have 2 different items on two different slot(both giving deflection bonus to AC),and stack them as they originates from different slot.But they dont stack.

This I didn't see as a problem, because they are untyped bonuses at best, or one replacing the dex mod, the other adding a bonus onto it.

Also it isn't that your AC is Int based all of a sudden, its that your replacing your current dex modifier value with your int modifier. so your dex mod for AC goes from being +1 to +8; its not Int for AC

Quote:
she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class

. It doesn't actually say use INT instead of Dex for AC, just that you can swap in your int value if its higher; its still Dex based AC using a different modifier.


Some Random Dood wrote:


Ah very nice, I wasn't aware there was armor that didn't give any penalties, I'm going to use that on my own magus.

I don't think canny defense and mind over metal are suppose to stack, while spell shield should be able to stack with one of the other 2.

** spoiler omitted **

You would need to find a way to get dodge, but overall it looks pretty good.

I've been giving the dodge thing some thought and the easiest way to get it would be to adjust the point buy slightly and go for 7 wisdom 11 dex which would be boosted to 13 with racial mod. If wisdom dumping not your cup of tea, dropping the str slightly or even con would work well.

As to if they are supposed to stack, I tend to think they probably are not, based on the kind of material Paizo has published so far (big fan btw). That said RAI is difficult to say for certain on, and a high AC is hardly game breaking considering other methods can achieve equally great AC (not including spell shield bonus- it is a limited resource).

Canny Defence and mind over metal should stack RAW I believe; as Mind over metal replaces your dex mod with your int mod for ac; visually

ABL SC MOD With Mind over metal Canny Defence
STR 18 +4 STR +4
DEX 13 +1 DEX +8 -replaces the +1 mod for ac +7 to dex mod
CON 12 +1 CON +1
INT 26 +8 INT +8
If it was worded something like "instead of using your dexterity to determine AC you may use your intelligence" then yes it wouldn't work. Instead as worded it replaces one modifier with another; your still using dex, but applying a different modifier to determine AC.
Its kinda like a Jedi "This is not the Dex your looking for"


Sandbox wrote:

I'd buy the justification that Uncanny Defense originates from wielding a weapon, while Mind over Metal originates from the use of armor. I have no problem stacking them as one replaces the stat mod itself and the other augments the stat mod higher based on class level...

Stick with Katana and be a bada## with powerattack
INT/STR Character ftw!
Now we just need some tasty favored class bonuses for Magi

Well said


Vasantasena wrote:

Hey guys can you give me feedback to my Magus Build please?

STR 14
DEX 24
CON 12
INT 25
WIS 12
CHA 11

Feats
Weapon Focus: Scimitar
Spell Shield
Dervish Dance
Intensified Spell
Weapon Finesse
Piercing Spell
Combat Casting

What point buy are you using / what stat boosting equipment is included here? Also I think your missing a feat (6 from level +2 magus bonus feats =! 7 feats listed)


Rory wrote:
FoxAdriftAtSea wrote:

Canny Defense (Ex):

When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duellist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Mind Over Metal (Ex):

A 2nd-level student of war is skilled at taking blows such that her armor or shield deflects them harmlessly. When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class. The armor’s normal maximum Dexterity bonus still applies (limiting how much of the character’s Intelligence bonus she can apply to her AC).

Essentially Mind over metal allows the build to use int instead of dex for AC, while Canny defence adds int to dex bonus. The two should stack.

Mind over Metal says you replace your DEX bonus with INT bonus.

Canny Defense says it adds INT to your DEX bonus to AC. Canny Defense does not say it adds your INT bonus to your INT bonus to AC.

Further, both abilities add to AC from an INT (stat) bonus, which similar buffs don't stack unless they are "dodge" or untyped. The AC bonus from INT seems like from the same type of thing.

I disagree that they work together by RAW and I don't think it is RAI either.

This is an excellent response and truthfully I didn't see it this way as I was blinded by my own cool-aid to see it as such. I suppose it depends on interpretation and sadly a mincing of the rules text. I thought I had found something that didn't involve such but alas...

With that said that I can see your point but consider the following

Quote:


1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon
Quote:


When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class

The way I could see this working is to interpret intelligence modifier in place of dexterity modifier, as being like such

STR 14
DEX (INT mod in place of dex mod) +8 + canny defence +7 modifier
CON 12
INT 26
WIS 11
CHA 7
In this interpretation mind over metal replaces your base stat modifier with int mod instead of dex. Then Canny defence, modifying your dex mod, which is effectively using your int mod for a base stat adds onto it as such. I admit freely this is a little counterintuitive but I think this could be a valid interpretation of the text. (Although now that you point it out its not the first thing I see and this took alot of thought to explain in a workable manner)


Mergy wrote:
One question I have is if you have a way to get your reflex save up.

I suppose a person could trade reactive for the +1 reflex save trait and one of the feats ( probably power attack ) for the +2 reflex save feat. That should bring it up to +6 which while bad isn't terrible. Also in the equipment section you could adjust some of the AC items like the ring, NA bonus or armor enchant to get a better cloak of resist. That would drop the AC but thats not a real concern. I did it this way mainly to prove a point, not so much as to optimize it for actual play (although I think its VERY playable as is)


Mergy wrote:

Ah, assumed it came from Student of War.

Could you be a half-elf to get a second martial weapon proficiency?

Yes you could with this...

Ancestral Arms:

Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus Feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.

Unfortunatly that replaces skill focus which is a qualifier for student of war, so you dont save any feats this way just dodge the con drop from full elf.

again sorry about not listing the race in the build, had to retype it last night after a browser crash so some minor detaiils got lost.


Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
What two Martial weapons are you proficient with? That's a prerequisite of Student of War. I see scimitar, but I don't see another one.

This comes from racial bonus for being elf (my fav race and happens to work well for this)

Weapon Familiarity:

Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.

Edit: I see I forgot to list the race but from the racial mods in the point buy it was implied


Jiggy wrote:
Did you miss the "per duelist class level" bit on the Canny Defense?

Canny Defence comes from Kensai 1 and as such functions like this

Canny Defense (Ex):

At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.


Therefore its more of a case of 'per Kensai class level'. Hope that clears it up for you!

EDIT noticed I've been spelling Kensai Kensie... oh well, I'll do it correctly from now on.


First off thanks for the feed back! Now to answer the questions. As to weapon choice I didn't really look into them but now that you mention it, a katana would be a better choice with the 18-20 threat and higher damage dice, not sure if the falcta with 19-20x3 would be as good as a magus benefits greatly from crit builds; You'd have to crunch the numbers on that one to find the DPR difference.

Some Random Dood wrote:

After reading this there are have some things I'm wondering.

Why are you using armor you are not proficient in? The magus is proficient with light armor, but you lose that when you take the kensai archetype. And the other 2 are not proficient with any type of armor. Not to mention the chance of arcane spell failure while wearing any type of armor or shield. Unless I'm missing something here.

That’s the best thing; there's NO REASON not to wear armor; yes a kensie suffers normal arcane spell failure/ penalties and I see I wrote the name of the armor wrong; my bad its

armour:

Silken ceremonial armor 30 gp +1 — 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 4 lbs.

as you see its got 0 ASF and 0 ACP with no max dex mod. Now I could be wrong but I believe with no penalties its no problem; student of war doesn't actually require proficiency, only that you wear armor.

Quote:


I don't think canny defense and mind over metal stack. The ac from canny dodge is considered dex, while mind over metal is considered int I believe. I could be wrong but from the description of mind over metal it sounds like you can use your dex OR your int to determine your ac not both.

This is the best thing about the build.

Canny Defense (Ex):

When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duellist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Mind Over Metal (Ex):

A 2nd-level student of war is skilled at taking blows such that her armor or shield deflects them harmlessly. When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class. The armor’s normal maximum Dexterity bonus still applies (limiting how much of the character’s Intelligence bonus she can apply to her AC).


Essentially Mind over metal allows the build to use int instead of dex for AC, while Canny defence adds int to dex bonus. The two should stack.
Quote:


What is your bonded item? From looking at your equipment I would guess a ring, but I could be wrong.

Quote:

Saves 10,3,9

5,2,5
0,0,2
1,1,1
BAB 7

What do these numbers mean? I understand the top are your 3 saves and the bottom is your base attack, but I'm not sure what the middle 3 are.

How did you get dodge? It requires a dex of 13 or higher while you have 9.

How are you casting foresight? A scroll or something else?

The bonded item could even be the indestructible black blade if you were worried about it, loosing it isn't a problem to the build as the wizard levels aren't there for spells, really for the divination school bonuses and could be dropped from the build to gain an extra AC from an extra Canny Defence modifier.

As for my strange formatting for saves the top numbers are the final saves added together the middle 3 are the base saves for magus, wizard and student of war respectively; also your right this build does not qualify for dodge, I originally had a +4 belt of str/con but it got dropped due to being much more then I remembered it as. Leaving dodge in the list was an oversight of mine.

Foresight is actually the Divination subschool replacement, again this was a bad use of language on my part and I apologize for the confusion.

Associated School Divination:

Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner’s fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.


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So the other day I thought of this and wanted to share it to get some feedback. Designed to either use spell shield vs the hard hitting guys or arcane accuracy with foresight to deal out x3 crit scimitar with 7d6 shocking grasp. While not optimized for damage, it should still be around 70 per round using all the abilities but I'm too tired to work it out now. I believe this is with core, APG, UM, UC + seekers of secrets. The build gets stronger with more magus levels.

Magus Bladebound Kensie 7 Student of War 2 Wizard 1 (20 point buy):

STR 18 (14 base +4 belt)
DEX 9 (7 bas +2 racial)
CON 12 (14 base -2 racial)
INT 26 (18 base +2 racial +2 level +4 headband)
WIS 11
CHA 7

Initiative +13 (8 int -1 dex +4 Improved initiative +2 reactive)

AC 35 or 43 with spell shield
10 base +5 armour +7 canny defence +8 mind over metal +1 dodge +2 deflection +2 NA

Saves 10,3,9
5,2,5
0,0,2
1,1,1
BAB 7

Arcane Pool = 10
black blade pool = 2
Divination Special: Foresight 11/day

Weapon Black Blade +2 Scimitar (+14 1d6 +6) (7bab+2enh+1wf+4str)

Equipment
+4 headband of int 16K
+4 belt str 16K
+2 ring of protection 4K
+2 amulate of NA 8K
+4 ceremonial robe 16K
+1 cloak of resist 1K
Total = 61.3 K gear

Spells
magus
1st 5
2nd 4
3rd 3
Wizard
1st 3 (+1 arcane bond)

Magus Arcana
Spell Shield (add int to shield bonus for AC)

Feats: 5 level
Weapon Focus (kensie 1)
Alertness (when wielding blade)
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Skill focus (knowledge arcana)
Intensify Spell
Extra Arcana - Arcane Accuracy
Power attack (magus 5)
Lunge (student of war 2)
Scribe Scroll (Wizard 1)

Traits
Magical Lineage shocking grasp
Reactive

Abilities:
Canny Defence 7 - light armour add int mod to dex mod 1 point per level
Perfect Strike - on confirmed crit increase mult by 1 for 2 AP points
Fighter Training
Iaijutsu - Int + dex on initiative rolls/ AOO when flatfooted
Divination Forewarned - always act in surprise round
Prescience 11/day free action roll d20...
Know your Enemy - move action, knowledge check small bonus
Mind over metal - Use int mod in place of dex mod for AC

Languages
Common, Elven, Celestial, Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan

Skills 108 points
19 Perception (10 ranks +2 keen senses +3 in class +4 alertness)
17 Sense Motive (10 ranks +3 in class +4 alertness)
21 Spellcraft (10 ranks +8 ability mod +3 in class)
12 Swim (5 ranks +3 in class +4 ability mod)
12 Climb (5 ranks +3 in class +4 ability mod)
11 UMD (10 ranks +3 in class -2 ability mod)
16 Knowledge (all)(5 ranks in each +8 int +3 inclass)=50 points
7 Acrobatics (8 ranks -1 mod)

With that said. . .
use arcane pool to turn blade into +3 keen scimitar, use foresight to roll d20 spellstrike/spellcombat shocking grasp and perfect strike on crit to raise the multiplier to x3


Thorin2011 wrote:

Is there a way to build this so that at lvl 18 this character can swing his weapon and cast a arcane spell and a divine spell.

At lvl 1 the magus can cast and swing as if two weapon fighting.

At lvl 10 the Mystic Theurge can cast a divine spell and Arcane spell of the same casting time at the same time.

Thus It holds that a magus mystic theurge could cast two spells one divine one arcane and still swing his weapon.

In the current game I'm playing in I've decided to go magus / cleric mystic theurge. Spell combat only works with magus spells so you'll need to wait till you get magus 6 to qualify for broad study which allows for spellcombat/spellstrike with your other casting class.

As an magus oracle you'll need to go at least magus 6 oracle 4 MT 10 meaning level 20 you could cast two spells one round. If you went cleric instead it would be 19 you could use spell synthesis to cast two spells full attack and still have a swift action in reserve for a quicken or a magus ability.

Also note that your oracle curse /mysteries would never progress so you'd want to choose that one carefully, and that at magus 7 you could wear medium armor and cast arcane magus spells.


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Looking over module 6 I see Nyrissa is missing something

Nyrissa:
Nyrissa is a Mystic Theurge 10 but does not list spell synthesis anywhere under the stat block or in her strategies, nor her combined spell ability

So with that in mind I was thinking of this

mean DM amusement:

Use all three uses of rod of maximize in one round targeting PC wielding Briar/ anyone near
Maximized Clashing rocks 20d6 DC 32 + Maximized chain lightning 17d6 DC 31 + quickened maximized scorching ray 3 rays 4d6
-possible 294 damage and they may be buried in rubble

is this too mean for the final boss of the final module?


Traditionally are group has run SU being unidentifiable but it has caused frustration for both the players and myself on separate occasions; previously it simply occurred too infrequently to look up the proper method of identification.

wraithstrike wrote:

SU's are normally tied to monsters so you need a knowledge check. If it is for a witch I would require a knowledge arcana check if class abilities are not commonly known.

I like this idea, but how would one set the DC for that? I don’t see anything under arcana for that, although from Sir Ophiuchus advice I see arcane sight and detect magic gives a 15 + 1/2 caster lvl for spellcraft check to identify the aura of non-spell effects. I'd prefer a way to identify the actual ability and not making extra effort figuring what aura and school each SU ability should be from. I guess my biggest concern is I feel creatures and NPC's should be able to recognize the misfortune hex affecting them, or at least realize to get outside the Witch's cackle range.

To Sir Ophiuchus, I think your confusing some reasonable house rules for RAW. Its not because SU abilities have no VSM component that you can't spellcraft it; spell-like abilities also have no VSM but are identifiable not because the caster is perfectly still but because the spell itself produces an effect; here's a link still/silent spell identification. In summary, spellcraft means you need to see the spell, not the hand waving chant to identify it. SU has no such effect from what I’ve read. Also, ruling that you don’t know a still silent spell is being cast means no AoO nerfing melee and possibly leading down the road of caster shenanigans.

Your absolutely correct that you would feel some effect and I suppose a reasonable assumption from the creature would be that the one standing perfectly still and doing nothing might be the one targeting them; I would however like a more concrete method than making every fourth monster Sherlock Homes using reasoning and deduction to identify the Witch.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw::

[qoute=PRPG page 216-217:]
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.[/QOUTE]

Therefore a character targeted by a supernatural ability would know they are targeted, but would lack any method of identifying the effect (sure they could detect magic themselves in combat, but that would be strange when the BBEG calls for a time out to concentrate for 3 rounds to find out what aura and school is affecting him) also note supernatural can not be dispelled so even if he detects it he can't do anything about it.

I guess if I can't find anything I'll have to go with what my fine fellow board members have suggested and use the reasonable deduction route mixed with some high knowledge arcana check, but I would preferably like more solid basis.


I am currently running a Kingmaker campaign and the issue of how to identify a supernatural ability came up in the last session. Unsure of how to handle this I did a quick search of the message boards but I didn't see anything obvious. Looking at the text for Knowledge Arcana, I see it can be used to identify a spell targeting you (DC 25 + spell lvl), and spellcraft can make a similar check at DC 15 + spell lvl. Can either of these checks be used to identify a supernatural ability, which is called out as being "not spell-like"? My ruling at the time followed a policy of "if I can't find the rule and it doesn't break the game don't waste everyone’s time and do whatever's in PC favour", meaning the enemy was unable to identify the Witch's misfortune Hex and continued cackle which contributed heavily to its rather swift demise. With the Witch a recent addition after the PC's wizard died, every session Su Abilities not tied to spells will come up and I want to get this right in the future; I see continued use of undetectable Su ability being really fun for the PC's until they face a monster with powerful Su abilities.

I am positive I'm missing or forgetting something really basic, but our next meeting is in a few days and I really want to get it right next time. If anyone knows the answer or can link me to the appropriate thread it would really help.

Supernatural Abilities (Su):

Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells


I had to look this up just awhile ago
two easy options for this I know of
Class method
Champion of Corellon Larethian - Races of the Wild
level two grants dex as bonus precision damage
- needs mounted combat and heavy armor as well as being elf/half elf as well as another I don't remember so maybe not the most practical for all builds

Dervish Dance
dex instead of strength with scimitar
check out The Archives of Nethys

Note that the two abilities should stack

For added goodness I found an update to the old x to y stat list that was on WotC at gianttip (order of the stick anyone? YES)
X to Y stat by Person Man


Thanks a bunch, this really helps! I'm gonna talk to my group over next few days figure out what kind of guys they're thinking of; if we dont have anyone with trapfinding (the DM always puts mean traps in) I'll keep the ninja and if we do I'll go Diviner as it looks very nice. Dervish Dance is especially great for this too for the very tempting x2 dex onto damage.

new damage:

with Dervish Dance instead of iron will
DPR = 87 with precision
DPR = 29 without

Thanks alot both of you!


Totally agree that anything immune to precision damage hoops me.

Morgen wrote:
Probably be better off with Rogue instead of Ninja. Make sure your thin-blade is made of adamantine or get the ridiculous enchant that let's it switch to the proper DR breaking type. Think it's in the MiC, but it might be in one of the odd magic books. Belt of Magnificence from the Miniature's handbook would be good too.

Weapon is +5 so should be fine; they fiddled with the rules for that in PF. Thought about a level of Rogue instead of the ninja, but because the dex modifier is so high that armor is not practical. Also first level rogue in PF only gains trapfinding and sneak attack 1d6. . . Ninja 1st gets that and a + wis mod to AC and sudden strike (a poor substitute but the Wis to AC and for Will saves). If I were to take more than a dip I'd say Rogue is 100% better.

Morgen wrote:
Get some use magic device going with some scrolls of blink or some other useful spells. A level or two of Diviner would probably be a benefit given the 1st level divination spells in the spell compendium.

Your right bout getting some consumables... I assume when you say diviner its a wizard specializing in Divinations (I've never done an arcane caster). The only level really drop-able is the ninja; I originally had this using Sword Sage in Celestial armor, but when I found out the Duelist ability adds Int onto the dex mod instead of a dodge bonus the AC it went from its then unreasonable 42 to a more standard 33 (I agree with this in balance terms but its still annoying). The forewarned ability would be nice but in order to do that and still get into the PrC's at the correct level I would have to drop the ninja level, transfer the Wis base stat to Con or Str. . . it sounds like a good idea I'll look into that one tomorrow, thanks!

Totally forgot about UMD, duh! Good catch.

Morgen wrote:
A fighter-type with power attack and so on will out damage you easily.

Also, main goal of this build wasn't so much maximized damage, but rather using every stat I could get away with without ending up totally gibbled. Building something that did as much damage as a fighter with equal BAB good saves and high stats all-around with NO ARMOR would be unbalanced. Because of the Rogue abilities its prolly closer to compare it to a level 15 Rogue that gets 8d6 sneak attack. . . I've done a few Rogues and I know that beating this in damage would be a fairly simple task; Average sneak attack damage is 28 while I'm getting out 22 precision. That said you wouldn't have the following out of place probably useless abilities

Useless abilities:

ki pool of 6 - what possible use could this have? dropping ninja for wizard sounds better the more I think about it
Corellon’s Blessing - lay on hands for 2 damage!
Hide in plain sight - without Darkstalker feat it feels pointless
mounted combat - likelihood of this being useful is low; with no horse it probably wont come up unless the mage polymorphs into an equine and lets me ride him.
5 ranks in preform dance while everyone else is fighting out with swords and arcane powers I can river dance; odds of this coming up- never
Combat reflexes as a level 4 Duelist I get the feat again and I cant drop the old one cause it would disqualify me for EVERYTHING


It’s my first time posting, my group will be doing a level 15 campaign in a month or so(all our others have ended around level 10). Currently my guy has decent saves and ok AC. Some of the abilities are odd and I’m not sure how to stitch the fluff together in a sensible humanoid manner. What I'd like to know is if this would work at level 15 or would I find myself getting turned into mince-meat?

We use any 3.5 / Pathfinder material standard gold (although we almost always start with slightly more; best to assume the least). My group has a history of strange builds; some really effective others served a noble purpose as monster chow.

I tried out the format used in the DPR Olympics thread using bestiaries AC 29 CR 15 creatures (we stick close to the rules so this should be good approximation). Basically I wanted to make something unique, so I tried to make a character that uses *almost* all of his ability scores.

DPR = 71.82 -precision including sudden strike
DPR without precision = 24

Alagoson, elf Ninja 1 (CA), Swashbuckler 3 (CW), Fighter 1, Shadow Dancer 2, Duelist 6, Champion of Corellon Larethian 2 (RotW)

Before anyone points it out, we add fractional BAB, so I have 3*3/4 BAB classes and 12*1 BAB= 14 BAB

Ability Scores:
STR: 10 (0)
DEX: 25 (+7) (15 base, +2 level, +2 racial, +6 belt)
CON: 16 (+3) (12 base, -2 racial +6 belt)
INT: 22 (+6) (14 base, +2 racial +6 headband)
WIS: 20 (+5) (13 base, +1 level, +6 headband)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 124 HP (12d10+3d8+45)

Saving Throws
Fort: +16 Ref: +15 Will: +15

AC: 33 - Touch 30, Flatfooted 15 (+2 bracers of armor, +1 Dodge, +7 dex, +6 int, +5 Wis +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: +5 elven thinblade +27/+22/+17, d8+5 dmg (18-20/x2)

Special Attacks:
Insightful strike (int added as precision damage) +6
Elegant strike (dex added as precision damage) +7
Precise strike (add duelist level to damage) +6
Sudden strike +1d6

Class Abilities:
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Ki pool, monk bonus,
Grace +3
Canny defence (up to 6 int to dex modifier)
Improved reaction, parry, enhanced mobility (stacks with mobility), riposte
trapfinding

BAB: +14 CMB: +14 CMD: 30

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Combat reflexes (rapier) (bonus)
dodge
Mobility
Mounted combat
Combat expertise
Einhander (PHBII)
Iron will
Improved iron will
Weapon focus
Sense Weakness (bonus)

Skills:
high Stealth
High perception
High acrobatics
High sleight of hand – used with Einhander to feint as a free action after 2 hits from full attack
Spellcraft?
Other’s for PrC prereq

Gear:
+5 elven thinblade
+2 bracers of armor
Belt of physical might +6+6
Headband of insight +6+6
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack