Bard

First World Bard's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 9 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber. Organized Play Member. 826 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 19 Organized Play characters.


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I am quite happy that the Bard gets another starting spell. One plus + one from choice of muse seemed lacking when compared to the Sorcerer.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Amiri could get away with having a greatsword if necessary anyway, since she rarely one-hands her weapon.

From my experience at GenCon, the only time Amiri was one-handing her weapon was when she was taking advantage of her one-handed climbing ability. I'm pretty sure I forgot that changing grip (adding a hand) cost an action, though.


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If you haven't seen Jason's playtest twitch stream on Friday, he admitted that the design team would take a good hard look at Signature Skills and decide if they were really adding anything to the game. I'd expect the concept to get heavily reworked, if not discarded entirely.


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At last! I can add these mushrooms to my Badger and Snake allies, for some older meme goodness.


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I guess another difference between Superstition in PF1 vs PF2 is that Channel Energy was Su (and therefore fine) in PF1 , but now it's just the Heal spell via a different resource pool (and on the no-no list). From a game design perspective, I wonder if you could say: cantrips and powers cast from spell points are fine, spells cast from spell slots are not and mostly get the desired behavior. (Allow bardic performance and channeled healing; though of course that would then allow a single target heal, which is undesirable, so there goes that idea).

But yeah, what does the barbarian do if the cleric needs to throw a 3 round channel but can't yet channel selectively?


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Soldarc wrote:
how about a 90 year old wizard with 8 Strenght outdoing a level 10 barbarian with 20 str in most athletics tasks, without the aid of magic mind you. Is that ok aswell? Same Wizard is outdoing the level 10 rogue in acrobatics and the level 10 bard att singing and playing every single instrument in the world.. Said wizard outdoes the level 10 fighter at swordsplay and is scarier than the halforc barbarian. this wizard outdoes an entire level 10 party at everything they are best at and has dedicated their life to perfect.. and only reason is "Because level 20 and bad ass"

So: 8 STR vs 20 STR, that's a difference of 6 (-1 vs +5). Let's also assume, based on your description, that the wizard is Untrained while the barbarian is a Master, which they can pick up by level 7. That's another difference of 4 (-2 vs + 2). This means that, for tasks that don't require training, they have the same bonus; the two are evenly matched if the task isn't at all proficiency-gated. If proficiency matters, or if the non level 20 char has relevant skill feats, they'll come out ahead.

20th level characters should be... i'm trying to find a word for mythic/epic/legendary that isn't already a loaded game term. That's the story this system seems primed to tell.


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Tallow wrote:
I'm guessing shortly before Gen Con 2019 when PF2 releases.

I believe NielsenE is referring to the Pathfinder Society Playtest Scenarios discussed in this blog post. There will be pregenerated characters, but players can also make their own 5th level PCs with the Playtest rules.

As for when the starting equipment/WBL rules will come out; I've got no idea.


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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
HOLY S#%# I JUST REALIZED THAT I CAN GIVE MY BARBARIAN WORSHIPER OF GORUM CLERIC STUFF WHILE KEEPING HIS BARBARIAN STUFF I AM DELIRIOUSLY HAPPY!

I kinda suspect this is what Mark is talking about when he mentions the party barbarian being the group healer. I think he mentioned that the barbarian had "a borderline unhealthy relationship with Gorum", or somesuch.


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wizzardman wrote:
Edit: Well, I'm not sure why my avatar suddenly became a grumpy smurf, but it seems appropriate.

You should be careful what you quote. :)

Edit: smurf'd (in the ninja'd way; i was expecting to get smurf'd the other way)


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Elleth wrote:
These sound quite good. I might have a hard time deciding between lore and polymath if it came to it.

Thankfully, you only need to decide which one you want first. If you want both, you should be able to spend class feats to pick up the second one fairly soon.

Bard Blog wrote:

As befits the individualistic nature of a performer's muse, none of the initial muse abilities are exclusive, so you can use your feats to traverse as deeply as you want into the abilities from each path; your muse merely represents a starting point on your bardic journey.

For example, if you select the maestro muse at 1st level, you gain the Lingering Composition bard feat (granting you the lingering composition power detailed above) and add soothe to your spell repertoire, but any bard can take this feat or learn this spell—selecting the maestro muse just grants them as a default.


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Bardarok wrote:
I only played one 5e game but it went on for a while and we had some turnover so there were a total of nine different players who made characters while I was part of it. Eight of them dumped Str to 8.

I have a number of 5E characters, and have dumped STR, DEX, CHA, & INT. I just need two more characters so that I can dump WIS (should be fine) and CON (okay, that one will be tough).

However, I currently GM a 5E game. 3 of my PCs dumped STR, and the 4th has a 13, which is the minimum to be a multiclassed Paladin, so for all intents and purposes, he dumped it, too. :/


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Worldhopper: That seems to be not the case, though i'm not sure about if it's a) or c)
Excaliburproxy: It wouldn't surprise me if the players of the GCP podcast misunderstood the rules and used the spell roll instead of the dex-based attack roll. I suspect we'll have the dex-based ranged attack as evidenced by these pregen sheets, though I imagine that is something that we can give feedback for during the playtest.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Yes. If I was wielding a crossbow, I imagine I would wield it loaded. Caveat: I have never actually wielded a crossbow.

I would recommend wielding an unloaded crossbow, and then loading it. Though I haven't seen the definition of "wielding" in the playtest, so I'll wait until August 2nd to pass final judgement. :P


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Mark Seifter wrote:
especially when your first shot of the fight can start with the crossbow loaded.

Ahh, I see you're in the school of "It's totally fine to walk around with a loaded crossbow". I remember this being a point of contention, though forget if that was in 3.5 or PFS. In fairness, it's probably an okay tactic while you are wielding it (because you're in the wilderness/ a dungeon), and a little more questionable while it is strapped to your back (because you're in town or walk staff in hand).


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QuidEst wrote:
Yeah, fey being tied to nature has always been weird for Druids. Maybe they need a fey trickery spell line that provides a menu of flexibly-chosen lower-level effects?

Maybe some sort of Seelie/Unseelie distinction? They'd both be Fey Sorcerers, but the first gets Primal and the second Occult. I was going to propose Summer/Winter, but then it would be weird if Summer got Cone of Cold via Primal and Winter.... didn't.


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Barathos wrote:
I hope Acid Splash scales quickly, because 1d4+1 isn't worth anything after 1st level.

I bet it will scale with an additional 1d4+1 (with +1 to splash and persistent damage on crits) every two levels.

My first thought when I saw the preview was "whelp, we're back to a 1st level wizard using a crossbow when out of spell slots", but then I realized that since Acid Splash is a Touch Attack it's got an accuracy bonus baked in vs the crossbow.

I was wondering if spells should just use the Spell Roll to attack, instead of relying on Dex (which still seems to be the all-important stat, as I expect most wizards to need it anyway for AC reasons). Then again, a wizard using int to attack might be too accurate for the tight math of PF2E. My next thought was to eliminate touch attacks and touch AC, to put those to-hit numbers back in line. Then I realized that i'd gotten to the same design decision as 5E (which, to be clear, are fine for that game). So, I think we're fine as is.


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QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
I was kinda hoping the Bard's spell list would be Primal.
Throwing fireballs and turning into dinosaurs and being unable to charm people is not a Pathfinder Bard. That said, you have Sorcerer to cover spontaneous charisma-based casting off the Primal list. It's the fey bloodline, so you probably get a dash of illusions and enchantment.

See, I'm wondering if the Fey bloodline wouldn't actually be a better fit for the Occult list (if it focuses on charms and the like), and something like a Plant bloodline would be better for Primal. But we'll see when the playtest comes out.


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Bard.


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Tangent101 wrote:
How much intermix do the spells from Occult, Arcane, Divine, and Primal have? I mean, I'm not alone in wanting to have fairly unique spell lists for each of these. It's one thing that really turned me off of Occult Adventures that so many 'psychic' abilities were just "reskinned" spells that Wizards and other classes already had.

Tangent, read up on Magical Traditions (specifically the four "essences") from the blog post here, and search that thread / other places for e.g. Mark's commentary on the subject. As further reference, the Primal List is Vital/Material, while the Occult list is Mental/Spiritual.


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DerNils wrote:
So all Dex Fighter builds can simply include a rogue dip now, which is - not terrible? I really don't know, but it seems like a strange place for such a powerful ability.

You are assuming that multi-classing will stay the same as it is in PF1, and that one-level "dips" are still possible.


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I am curious as to how Merisiel gets enemies to become flat-footed, though I imagine that was covered in the Glass Cannon podcast. Does flaking an enemy impose the flat-footed condition on them?


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graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I fear it will end like in PF1: "spontaneous spellcaster have too few know spells, let's add a feat to get more"; ".... let's add a magic item to know more spells"; "... let's add a class option to add spells know" and after a time the spontaneous spellcaster will have so many options that the limitation disappear.
If I have a worry about this, I'm more worried that they might NOT add those things.

We know that Staves exist, have low level versions, and can do this with a bit of Resonance cost (which to a Bard, is not as painful as it might be for non-CHA casters).


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thflame wrote:
Hopefully it won't be like Archetypes where you will have to grab an entry Feat before you can actually get the stuff you want.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to take a dedication (entry) feat. Otherwise... how would it work? I can't see a character start taking class feats from another class just because.


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Cyrad wrote:
Though, with bard as a full caster, I am concerned we might not get good support for a magus or a spellcasting warrior character.

I am holding out hope that one can build a reasonable spellcasting warrior from the multiclassing system in this edition.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

From my read of this, Mark, doesn't this essentially lock in the monk-bard as the ultimate multi-class build?

[/onlyhalfserious]

I like ranger-bard, personally.

I fully intend to go druid-bard at some point during the playtest, to see how that behaves.


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I am excite! I'm looking forward to playing a Bard at GenCon; hopefully I have enough time to put one together for my Thursday 8AM and 1PM sessions. :P


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Captain Morgan wrote:


2) For better or worse, the iconic art illustrates the characters with the same set of gear no matter at what point they are illustrated. Their art will always depict them wearing what the creators envision as being worn for the majority of their career. This is true at level 1 before they can afford it, and it is true at level 20 when their gear has probably all been converted to mithril or adamantine or whatever.

I can only think of one counter-example, and that's the Mythic Iconics. I thought that art was spectacular.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
Seems like it will be very worth to get 16 CHA on the Paladin for higher healing and more spell points. Possibly even at the cost of 18 STR. At least for Seelah who is investing all her stuff on a LoH build.

Since PF2 uses the Starfinder rules for advancing ability scores, a Paladin can raise STR, CON, CHA consistently, and cycle the 4th boost between DEX and WIS for saves, or maybe even INT for some reason.


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So, there's a lot of wondering why Seelah's character has a very out-of-place background benefit. If you haven't, you should read her Meet the Iconics blog post. The street urchin background is that; her background. Is Seelah the paladin going to be picking pockets in all but the most unusual circumstances? Of course not. Some people may want to make sure the background carries a solid benefit for the character. Other people really value the story, and the background benefit is window dressing. Seelah's build is the latter, and that's OK.


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Mbertorch wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

A halfling or gnome could quite easily be higher.

A little birdie told me that Halflings will end up with an ancestry advantage to Wisdom instead of Charisma in the finalized playtest...
Oh really? Because I've been a (passionate) proponent of this very thing, but I've not seen it indicated by any official source (developer). I want you to be right. But why do you think it?

Herein lies the Wisdom that you seek.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

A halfling or gnome could quite easily be higher.

A little birdie told me that Halflings will end up with an ancestry advantage to Wisdom instead of Charisma in the finalized playtest.

That said... now I have an image of a Goblin Paladin of Shelyn rattling around in my head.


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Roswynn wrote:

Wait though, why wouldn't a street urchin be able to get to expert thievery? What's stopping them? It's not legendary, it's just expert!

Maybe if you are "only" trained in thievery you really can use it only for the most basic tasks. And if you're a master but without the right feat you still can't pick pockets and palm worn rings.

That would certainly be something on which to give some sweet, sweet feedback.

Their level. I forget what level you can start to get Expert in skills, but your run of the mill street urchins are probably the equivalent of level 1 NPCs, who should be at best trained. Now that special street urchin with a lot of hustle that makes it to expert? That one probably has PC glow. :)


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DerNils wrote:
Now you will have people that are legendary in thievery but are unable to steal a wallet out of your pocket. That does not spell diversification to me, rather it sounds like a step back into the direction of "only rogues ever ...", because who else has a skill feat left over for that stuff?

I hope that's not the case, and that Expert level thievery lets you do this. In this case, the pickpocket feat is for street urchins and the like that won't ever get to Expert level thievery but still need to steal a living.


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Biztak wrote:

I mean in PF1 humans were more prevalent than any other race because their build would come online earlier and it seems that thos will be the case again.

I was excited about General Training because it was a good way to keep humans on brand without having the same problem we had in PF1 but with the inclusion of Natural Ambition humans are an even better option since they can pick either feat depending on their needs.

The devs have said that feat chains no longer have thematically inappropriate entries, so hopefully this less of an issue. For instance, I would be surprised if e.g. there was a feat chain like Point-Blank Shot / Precise Shot that all archers wanted and Humans could get quicker.

On the Natural Ambition front, it seems like that extra feat is granting something neat but not mind-blowingly good: I could probably do without Warded Touch or Reactive Shield if I got a neat Ancestry feat instead.
Finally, I think this will make taking Archetypes (and VMC, if that's the system we get) easier for Humans, since the opportunity cost of those options are the Class feats you aren't taking, making the Class Feats you do get more valuable. Once again, seems on-brand for Humans.


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Roswynn wrote:
I hoped to see a different armor, but mail it is again. I hope there's more variety in the playtest.

These are first level pregens; I'd imagine better heavy armor is not within a new PC's budget. In 4E a Paladin could start with Plate, but plenty of people didn't like that the suit of plate mail was only ~10 gp more than Scale, or that Fighters needed to a feat to gain proficiency with Plate. (The latter concern was addressed in Essentials with the Knight build Fighter)


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Elleth wrote:
2 class feats and natural ambition again. I suppose it might do that?

Seems pretty likely. Interesting that for the three humans we saw, the Human Ancestry feats gave either Class feats (for Valeros and Seelah) or a General feat (Toughness for Kyra). I suppose the ancestry identity for humans in 3.x was a bonus feat and bonus skill ranks; so getting an extra feat of some type is on brand. In general, the humans seemed to have a number of trained skills, so perhaps that advantage is still present, as well.

It's interesting that both of Seelah's class feats go into boosting Lay on Hands. Training in Medicine and turning the D4s into D6s seems pretty good. Making LoH not provoke also seems good if eg you plan to use it on yourself when in a particularly nasty fight in lieu of taking that 3rd attack that's unlikely to hit (though as Seelah I'd want to raise my shield most turns I bet, so the tradeoff would be against my 2nd attack, but i digress). That said, the implementation seems a little clunky: remove the Manipulate tag from the Somatic action? So *most* somatic actions provoke, but this one doesn't anymore? I guess we'll have to wait until we get the rules to see how clear it is.


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Going back to Kyra: this pregen is probably fine for an hour-long delve event, but for a more generic pregen, I'd like to see a quick run down of the patron diety's anathema.


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In general, I like what I see. Comments/thoughts:
I don't like that her Athletics bonus is left off the sheet. I get that she has Assurance(Athletics), and won't be rolling for DCs 10 and under; that's probably a very good thing, given the penalty from chain mail. But I like to see scores for every skill I am trained in; it's possible (though likely a bad idea) that I'd want to attempt a task harder than DC 10 with her.
Seems kinda weird that Spell Roll +5 is on the sheet, but her Fire Ray is a +2 touch attack; people accustomed to e.g. 5E might see Spell Roll and her domain power but not look up at the Strikes to see the +2. Then again, that's how touch attacks always worked in Pathfinder, so people coming from old Pathfinder will be fine.
I wonder what General Training got her. Probably more trained skills?
Typo on a spells line: Bless and Sanctuary aren't cantrips.
No attack cantrip; either Clerics don't get them or Kyra is supposed to rely on her scimitar and Fire domain for combat. I guess that's similarly on-brand for Pathfinder, though I do hope that less melee-oriented casters will have combat cantrips.


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pjrogers wrote:
I know that I'm going to sound like a crank, but I'm really unhappy that the first pregen we see is the goblin alchemist throwing bombs. That image and the priorities it reflects does nothing to encourage me to look forward to PF2e.

I suspect the following:

1) Russ Morrisey of ENWorld decided in what order to do the previews.
2) He's doing them in alphabetical order, since he announced he'd be doing the Cleric tomorrow.


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John Compton wrote:
Over the course of the playtest, we're experimenting with a few different pregenerated character rosters and layouts. You'll find that the pregenerated characters we have at Gen Con and beyond will be a little different than the ones we've used at PaizoCon, Origins, and UK Games Expo. As part of the process, we'll be looking for feedback about the layout, presentation, and usability of the pregens so that we can have an even better set of pregens ready to go when the second edition launches in full in August 2019.

Neat! If it's possible, could you mention a blog post in the next week or two which roster of pre-gens will be at Gen Con?


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kaid wrote:
So it says due to using resonance during downtime to make items they only have 2 resonance to spend but what did they spend it on during downtime. It can't be quick alchemy or those would already be useless. That is really confusing.

Probably the Elixirs of Life he has on his person. Possibly also the Alchemists Fire and Acid bombs, though I suspect those come from mundane crafting.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voss wrote:
20? I thought it was three actions per round?
You get a free DC 20 check every round. Evidence also suggests that spending actions actually gives you DC 15 checks rather than DC 20 ones.

If the DC is lower when you spend an action to mitigate the damage, that seems fair.


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KingOfAnything wrote:


It is a lot better if Dead Phoenix is correct and there is a general action to allow a reroll. Spending 1 or 2 of your actions to roll each round gives you a decent chance to end the effect quickly.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding a Flat Check, then? IIRC, a flat check is *just* a d20 roll, which means a DC20 flat check requires a Nat 20 to pass, and I wouldn't call a couple extra rolls a decent chance.


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Darkorin wrote:

We have nothing that tells us they are limited right now, thus it is normal to make the assumption that they are not limited.

The only info we currently have is: As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases.

I believe that discusses spell slots, not spells known/recorded in the spellbook.


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Dead Phoenix wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
Elleth wrote:

Holy shoot persistent damage looks annoying.

Plant monsters are gonna immolate.
The DC 20 flat check to end seems like a typo. That, or something that needs to get fixed in the playtest. :P
Probably not a typo. In the glass cannon podcast playtest they got persistent bleed from bats and it was 1 hit per round until they made a flat dc 20 check. But I believe you can spend all your actions in a round to make a roll to end it sooner. Or they could just get healed, though that likely only works for bleed.

The alchemists fire gives ways to put out the fire, and is only 1; I could see a flat 20 being fine for that. But for the persistent 1d4 Acid, with no other way to remove it? That seems harsh...


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Elleth wrote:

Holy shoot persistent damage looks annoying.

Plant monsters are gonna immolate.

The DC 20 flat check to end seems like a typo. That, or something that needs to get fixed in the playtest. :P


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ENWorld is previewing the 1st level iconic pregenerated characters they've used at conventions. Check out the first preview, for the Alchemist, here!


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nogoodscallywag wrote:

How does one go about playing the Playtest at GenCon? Will it be similar tot he Starfinder rollout, where there are no tickets, just wait-in-line?

GenCon has no listings for "Playtest" or "Doomsday Dawn."

I believe ticketed events for the playtest are all sold out; you should be able to see them if you don't filter out sold out events. Note that it's not Doomsday Dawn at GenCon (since those would all be 8 hour sessions) but Pathfinder Playtest Adventures 1, 2, 3 as listed in the blog. It's my understanding that you can play the Rose St. Revenge by waiting in line in the same way as the Starfinder quests last year. (To be clear, the Starfinder rollout also had ticketed events that sold out rather quickly)


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ryric wrote:
My wife and I are looking forward to playing Rose Street Revenge at Gen Con! We will likely use pregens, as I'm not sure we'll have the free time to build characters before our session. Would I be correct in assuming that the pregens will be some of the iconics? Can we find out which ones ahead of time?

Everyone should check out ENWorld, since it looks like they are getting to spoil the pregen sheets. To answer your questions, it looks like the 6 are Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, and Alchemist. No idea what the bonus 7th would be, if we get it.


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Kalindlara wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

Except that as a Sorcerer, your CHA is probably a good bit higher than the cleric's.

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