As I understand it, a character is *somewhere* in Square-X, sometimes, the center, sometimes any corner, sometimes any edge. So, why assume I am moving from center to center, when I could be moving corner to corner in an adjacent square?
You are reading too much into the RAW and trying to pick a fight. You're welcome.
Especially in trickier situations, a Grand Master might not be able to tell WHY he chose the move that he did, even if it wins him the game.
lol Gad! I hope he can explain it, or he will drop games to the Master that *can* explain it!
I am not saying WIS WIS WIS, I am saying there is a valid argument for either. Maybe a PC could choose either Knowledge: Games/Tactics, or Profession: Chess.
So, kind of like producing and understanding military intelligence? The ebb and flow of battle requires attention to the details, commanders personalities included. It is just as important as understanding an enemy's logistics, doctrine, equipment and morale. *Comprehending* and *Understanding* are not always the same thing :)
An example is a Computer that is better at Chess than a Human. The computer can do it because it can run the permutations and likely outcomes so fast nowadays. But, when people play, attitudes mean a lot. This is especially true with deeper, more free form games/wargames than chess. :)
hmmm... almost universally seen as a skill. Another reason Fighters are never Generals, eh?
I could see the base skill using INT or WIS, because it takes some 'logical understanding' of the game itself, as well as 'intuitive leaps' into the opponents behavior.
How do you generate Loot that doesn't rock like an Xmas tree? the technique I have been experimenting with is the PC gets expected WBL, but the GM sits down and dices out random items one by one until the random loot total value is at least equal to half the WBL. This gives a more organic feel and some odd items. :)
If the DM is rolling and accumulating cheap items and then *bam* a high end XYZ, rolling is done and the PC gets either the AMAZING item (Ring of Animal Friendship! woo!) or, the true difference to the WBL at that point. This is at GM's discretion. The "Overboard" item, if kept, is NOT sellable; story it into the PC's background: "This +2 Flaming Sword was Grandpa Dale's most Magnificent Yeti Cutter! He saved the whole village with it one harsh winter!"
Any other items that the PC does not want/need "Oh, yeah my rogue got full plate," can be sold at 50% market value. This may lead to some disparity in the party's wealth, but let's face it, if it aint PFS, there is *always* disparity. :)
* * *
"Everytime I punch myself in the nose, I get a bloody nose."
Stop punching yourself in the nose.
Fighting Corpse-Hole and the DM is punching yourself in the nose. Leave the game. Go play an MMO, or PS4/whatever. Random Hero suggesetd PbP and that is better than what you are doing. You are obviously wound up over the whole affair and I do not buy your "but I am having fun anyway" line.
The DM has created a Hostile Play Place. It's hard to report a bully when the flippin' boss is the bully!
If you feel like it might help, tell the group why you are leaving: you are tired of being a second class citizen in a society of equals.
Leave the group. Run your own game. Don't play at all. Any *other* choice is a better choice than sitting through Corpse-Hole and Dork-Master McGee's shenanigans!
Here's a tissue for your bloody nose.
Gaven Our heart, Paladin of Iomadae
It's a BIG party, but we have a blast playing. We have a novice DM, but he puts on a hell of a stage show! :D
A snarky suggestion:
In regards to the earlier comment about not disallowing a class after the fact, uh... you *can* say, "I did not forsee you unbalancing the game. I think this class/Archtype is overpowered. I think you will agree, if you are honest. What other class can dump 2 out of 3 physical stats and still be the overwhelmingly best melee in the party? I would like you to re-roll your character so we can continue this campaign." This does not mean be mean about it. Talk to the player about a story exit for Bob the Synthy and re-roll.
If you really want to be a jerk, photocopy Bob the Synthy 4 times and have the PCs run into them as a party. When you *absolutely* mop the floor with them, ask the Synthy player, "Still think they are balanced?"
(this is why I dislike/disallow Summoners (and their Eidolons...) when I run games. Yes I am a jerk. No, I don't care that you dislike my 'limited point of view'. The game should be fun for *every* player at the table, from GM to crap-arse Monk. My most recent game is a Cleric of Shelyn, a Paladin of Iomadae, an Alchemist, a Shadow Wizard and a Dwarf Fighter. Man, these guys will never have fun with such gimpy characters. :) )
You did awesome. You were faced with a challenge and you overcame it. You did so in the framework of the rules. Nothing you did required 'creative' interpretations. Relax, enjoy your victory. If the GM is consistently adversarial look for a new table. The game is PvE with GM as Referee.
Bravo on gaining a stronger understanding of the game.
Now, the GM. This game (and any RPG!) is not Win/Lose. TPKs do not make you a better GM. If they did every party would die when faced by the tribe of 5th level Barbarian Gobbos. The first level party. Forty 5th level Barbarian Goblins. Yeah.
ME v. THEM GMing is for newbs. You do not *win* unless the players at the table (you included) have a good time. Rather than being 'dark red and pointing fingers' you should applaud your player for digging and making the game bigger, better, richer. Your player did not cheat, he researched.
In regards to research, do you as a person think that you can order another person to *not* go and read something? It seems well past 1543 and I think the Inquisition is only alive in fiction and history. You cannot *ban* normal human interaction, and are foolish to think so.
Relax, enjoy the game.
Showed a concept pic to a friend, "She looks like a really expensive wife..." was his reply.
Threnody in Velvet
Aldori Sword Lord Prestige class gives an ability that gives DEX to Damage w/ an Aldori Dueling Sword. You can use it one or two handed and apply the DEX to Damage. However, this DOES not give x1.5 when using the weapon two handed. It does not say it affects/precludes the additional damage from a two handed Power Attack.
I also realized my number (above) was wrong, too.
If HL is giving me x1.5 when two handing, then it explains it: 1.5x4=6, which is the two extra points of damage on the statblock (where the HL file was tagged Both Hands, Power Attack-ON.
I am trying to figure out if I am wrong, or if HL is wrong on this one. I have an Aldori Swordlord based character, with one level of ASL Prestige Class.
I am getting the math out to d8+12 when attacking two handed with the Aldori Dueling Sword. HL has it at d8+13. *headscratch*
Here is the Statblock in question :) And thank you much for the help! :D
* * *
Katerina the Maid
Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds (2), Potion of shield of faith +2, Caltrops (2); Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Sword, Aldori dueling, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +2), Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Light mace, Cloak of resistance +1, Ioun torch, Adventurer's sash (3 @ 3.08 lbs), Backpack (9 @ 15 lbs), Flint and steel, Hammer, Iron spike (4), Mirror, Silk rope, Whetstone, 52 PP, 7 GP, 12 SP, 8 CP
As a Herolab user, the way it has worked for me is you get the license per system; a License for Pathfinder. This initial license allows you to use the PF packs on *two* separate computers. You can also buy additional licenses in order to use PF packs on up to two more (total of four) computers. Also, I think the licenses/computers are affiliated through your MAC address. You can change the machine your license is working on, but only every 120days. If you want to change a computer sooner, you have to contact WolfLair and have them manually update it :)
Hope it helps.
I only rule it is the threatened spaces that cost you extra. Otherwise, mobility fighters get neck punched again. (and what they need is more reasons to not be played!)
Just an opinion based on experience and what works for my groups at tables. :)
It's irrelevant. A player should be able to be a polytheist. Especially if you were to allow "Pantheon Worship" such as the Dwarven Cleric of Dwarven Gods :) Asmodeus and Adabar are not in opposition to each other. Disallowing a Sarenrae/Rovagug worshipper makes a lot of sense though :)
Caveat: as he draws power from Adabar, violating those tenets of faith could cost him, mechanically, in-game.
number 5 isn't chaotic, you don't have to obey all laws you just have to believe in order
So, picking and choosing which Laws to follow is... Lawful? I see it as either Chaotic (choose your own adventure!) or less likely, Evil. It would be Evil if the Laws you are following are the emulated Laws of Hell, or the delivered Laws of Hell and its hierarchal society; "Everyone has a Boss. Mine happens to be Asmodeus. Your mortal laws are trash." But, this arrangement was not stated, so no assumptions on my part about that.
Also, HKs are so much about LAW that they are beholden to follow Laws. Failing to do so undermines their claims of LAWLAWLAW. Except that one. Oh, and that one, too. And we can ignore this law, too. It's poorly written. (Suddenly I am seeing the Pigs in Animal Farm...All Hellknights are created equal, but some are more equal)
A few years ago a good friend and I had a lengthy discussion on what alignment means. To sum that up we got two basic points, in D&D derivative games 1) It is tangible; you can sense it assuming you have the 'equipment' (ie, spells, powers) and 2) evil is as evil does - Writing N on your character sheet does not make you N, *being* balanced does. The Enchanter that consistently superimposes their will on victims (Charm, Dominate...) cannot maintain a N alignment for long; taking someone's free will is evil, and it would be detectable (if the Aura was strong enough!)
Thank you to James Sutter for helping out :) He already explained (and I read that, too!) that as an editor they run into freelance writers that want the spiky evil looking guys to *always* be evil. Got that, but my basic argument is "When does Law and Balance tip?" HKs do strongly adhere to LAW, but they do so at the expense of Good. That is to say that even if the majority of members are LN, and seek to preserve order to protect civilization, there are enough evil members to pull them south of the Neutral position they crave.
I have shown many cases (published by the Golem) where the HKs demonstrate not just 'training to fight' but training to fight *like* Hell. HKs, collectively and most of the orders individually, have so little Good in them there is no counterbalance to the Evil in their ranks. I suddenly had the vision of a car with two different sized tires on; two larger ones (driver's front and passenger's rear) and two smaller ones on the opposite corners. The car would handle like poop and you either have to change the tires to all small (Evil) or all large (Neutral) because the opposing forces require resolution. Or, at the very least they would have to put the small ones up front and the big ones in the back :) Maybe the true believers in the HKs need to purge the truly infernal in their ranks? Maybe that'd be a kick ass AP?
Abby Temps (you rock, btw!) has argued that there are other orders that do good, but they are the minority, and not at all well fleshed out. Throughout Paizo's writing the HKs are described as ruthless, hidebound, and often downright evil. (Abby loves the Rack, sorry secret's out ;) ) Are there any specific examples of Good things they do? Like feeding kittens? (j/k Kittens need punting ;) )
Kevin M, per ISWG, p55: "Among [the government in Egorian]'s most powerful mortal tools are the unsubtle, skull-breaking Hellknights." Seems to me the HKs work directly for House Thrune.
* * *
Opened up Castles of Golarion. Yeah, Evil.
1) "...the [Order of the Nail]'s prime directive: the destruction of the indigenous "primitives" who plagued the area." (p25)
2) "The inner chapel is used for...Asmodean religious services." (p33)
3) "...frequently throw troublesome prisoners or slaves [to six lemures] to punish them or prepare them for sacrifice." (p31)
4) "[the bastions] represent the ideals of Lord Asmodeus: slavery, tyranny and pride." (p27)
5) "...Hellknights have never bowed to Varisia's rulers or its laws." (p25)
Citadel Vraid is not an 'off case' for the Order of the Nail; it is their Headquarters, the residence of Lictor Diviri himself.
Bran Towerfall wrote:
Two other pcs ( 1 former gm) went ballistic. Screaming, ranting, swearing....it was unfortunate. Even after the death was accepted, he was screaming that he could have killed her while she dropped.....
Once the two children leave, "DM Bran, it looks likes we need to find new players, or we short man quests."
1) This is a GAME. Have fun, or don't bother.
In the future remember that you deserve the respect earned just by picking up the DM's mantle.
Best of luck in the future! :D
(Bullet points are Abby Temps' replies, my comments follow the individual bullets.)
1.) There is nothing remotely evil about being "unsubtle" or "skull-breaking", particularly when describing a knightly order where physical might and a direct, plain-speaking attitude are prized. Unsubtle and skull-breaking could easily describe the Lawful Good Knights of Ozem.
2.) Uninterested in social goodliness (i.e. pleasantries) is a fancy way of saying that they don't particularly care if you like them while they do their job. They're not here to deliver flowery speeches or to kiss babies. They're not politicians. They're soldiers. Soldiers who have trained and prepared to stand before literal demons, devils, and the worst monsters the universe has to offer ... and kill them. Nothing about this attitude is evil, or foreign to a good person working in a similar elite group.
3.) Emulate. Verb. "Match or surpass, typically by imitation." Hell is the mightiest army in the known universe. Hellknights train to be as tough, or tougher than the best opponent they know of. Which describes just about every military and athlete in the world.
4.) Of course they train with summoned devils. Specifically, they fight them. Because once you kill a monster from hell in physical combat, no earthly enemy will be quite as intimidating. Also, devils are some of the most canny strategists in the universe. Which means Hellknight commanders are trained to outwit devils. And the devils are summoned, so it's not like they're there willingly (at least on paper).
5.) It sounds better if you quote the whole sentence: "Thus, Hellknights learn to make sacrifices for the greater good, obey draconian regimens of military conduct, commit to encyclopedic memorization the laws of their orders and local governing bodies, and undergo constant drills to temper both body and mind."
6 & 7.) This describes one specific order, not all Hellknights. Slavery is legal pretty much everywhere in the world, and the Order does as much to punish unworthy slave owners as they do to capture escaped slaves. It may be harder to find good members of this Order, but they don't all have to be evil.
8 & 9.) Also describes only one, single Order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Gate is another one of those "probably no good people here" orders, but there is also almost nothing known about it or why they do what they do so it's hard to draw many conclusions. This Order does seem to be more evil than not, though.
10.) Sounds like the transition from Judaism to Christianity to Islam. Or the development of any number of other religions. Nothing evil about that. Plus, at least one of the gods that they are "far from" is Asmodeus.
12.) Also describes only one, specific order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Rack is easily grouped on the more LE side of the orders, although considering there are Lovecraftian Elder Gods out there I think you could make a good point for burning at least SOME books....
13.) "Brutal reminders that no crime goes unpunished". You didn't quote the whole sentence. They combat criminals and organized criminal organizations that prey on innocent people. Also, there are other definitions for "brutal" beyond "cruel". Brutal can also mean "harsh & unrelenting" which sounds pretty in line with what we know about Hellknights.
14.) The network of informants and bounties for "substantiated" accusations pretty much describes any well-funded police force. As for the grim punishment part ... was Ned Stark evil for insisting on executing deserters from the Wall himself, rather than pass that grim duty on to someone else?
15.) This line refers to governments bringing in Hellknights and then trying to get rid of them after. Each Order is different, so there are a lot of answers to why they wouldn't want to go, but even the better Orders have a good excuse to stay once they're there. Do you really want law enforcement to come and go just because short-sighted politicians change? You don't normally call in Hellknights unless you have a problem worth throwing Hellknights at ....
16.) Probably not the most accurate of sentences, since we know Hellknights ARE concerned with methods. They just expect those methods to work. You could easily read this as "If the way things are being done isn't working, then changes need to be made."
17.) You omitted "If people cannot be trusted to obey the law out of their own senses of civility and social righteousness then ..." from that sentence.
(whew! Fingers hurting!)
Grond, No offense taken :) And no, I do not have notion that any harsh justice is Evil. However, getting pliers and breaking teeth out of a bread-thief's head *might* be evil. HKs consistently refer to punishments as brutal or harsh. They do not address what it was that the perpetrator had done in the first place. Something truly vile like rape would be an appropriate trigger to harsh justice. And what is Law, or Justice if not tempered with mercy? Neutral. or, Evil, depending. The combined elements of Law and Good demand Justice tempered by compassion. Overly harsh punishments for petty crimes only leads to more crime.
TOZ, I was teasing you :) But, the case stands. It would be incredibly difficult to maintain a good alignment in an environment where expediency and brutality are *encouraged* To such an extent that a person that had strong (good) convictions would probably never even become a Hello Pony Knight of Rainbow Lawfulness ('cause of course no Good person would be a Hell Knight! lol)
*points up to number 12*
*then to number 16...*
Maybe the HKs do not proclaim "Evil, it's a lifestyle so don't judge" but they certainly fail to maintain moral balance based on their lack of 'goodliness' (see number 2, above)
How long do you think the LG general is going to maintain his loyalty to an organization that is at odds with his altruistic (assuming he has some inkling of what makes 'good') yearnings? So, the small Order he runs may become an unaffiliated (and therefore hunted) splinter cell.
Violence, Slavery, Diablerie, Using others for thier own power...
Words like grim, brutal and skull breaking.
I apologize that I don't have to hand what is apparently a good reference for the wickedness of the HKs, Castles of Golarion... :/
Agree to disagree? I don't want to derail the rest of the discussion! :D
Nope, but *substantially more* of them are involved in evil acts than in good acts. To such an extent that the two axes of alignment, the ethical is undeniably LAWFUL, but the moral is bent towards EVIL.
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Putting LAW before all else will often lead to a dearth of altruism and dignity for sentient beings. After all, "...uninterested in social goodliness..." (ISWG, p266).
Would the police Chief put your officer in the line of fire like that? Probably not, but then the detectives selected would be specially trained for the event(s). But, when the sting operations are run immorally, the 'good' cop may object. And as the reference consistently states, the way the HKs do business (day to day) is angled against good if not directly opposed to it. (see above quotes)
(in any event, this discussion is generally invigorating :) thank you all!)
The HKs don't know what the daughter knows and a good beating never hurt anyone administering stern justice. They could verify this information. Call up Order.Gate.Crimestopper.org. Devil answers and says, "Oh, she knows what's going on!" and drops the call. Of course Shameless McShady (the devil's truename) wasn't talking about her knowledge of the thieves, he was refering to her knowing that storks bring babies (sure, she's that kind of innocent!). So the HKs, forebearance has worn thin *and* they have reliable confirmation that the girl knows. Beat the brakes off the little girl. The LN HKs agree, 'We followed procedure' and the LG pally is ashamed to be wearing Hugo Boss.
As for ordering a Pally to wickedness,
PRD sez this about Lawful Evil wrote:
He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life.
Prove your loyalty to the Order, Boy. You may see him as foolish, but wouldn't said general be *more* foolish to leave a disloyal malcontent in the ranks to corrupt (see what I did there?) his Armigers and junior HKs?
PRD also sez wrote:
Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.
for example, Hell Knights. because:
PRD sez this about Lawful Neutral wrote:
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
The books explicitly state that most HKs are LN and not LE so that by default kinda boots the "how are they not lawful evil?" question.
Because they say so? OK. Got it. Except the consistent verbage used to describe them is the same verbage you would use to describe any other Evil organization.
Are explicit threats of violence 'evil'? How about when they shift from threats to warnings that are then acted upon?
Is torture evil? What if it's just a good knock-about with bare fists and not drowning/burning to confession to await execution?
Any example of 'it was legal to hold slaves' needs to be evaluated against measures of good in it's own context. Do Good creatures in Pathfinder *own* other sentient beings? What if the conditions of bondage are such the slave is sure to die or be permanently maimed due to his status?
Again, I beleive the HKs (by their own descriptions!!!) are LE, and LN if you are 'morally ambivalent'. They are in no way LG, and how could a member of the order maintain their alignment in the face of consistent evil? How many times does the Paladin have to ignore the torture and starvation of prisoners before slipping into LN? Or, does he defy his superiors and slip into NG?
If four of the members are LE, and five are LN, and the lone Pally is (obviously) LG, what happens when the four LE's decide to 'extract information' from the merchant's daughter. She has done nothing except not know where the thieves ran off. So, they beat her until she confesses. Does Bob the Pally let it happen, or does he stop it? Does he have a third choice? See, the HKs are doing "LAW" by pursuing the thieves, and in their own words(!) "They are not concerned with methods. They are concerned with results." (ISWG, p266). At the end of the day, they capture the thieves, and LAW is satisfied. But at what cost?
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." --Fred N.