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Hand of the Inheritor

Fergie's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,563 posts (1,583 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 3 aliases.


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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Schools get tanks too!

Isn't this the same State where school security can't handle a bottle of pepper spray without having to make F-up payments to both sides?

On the lighter side, I'm sure MRAP abuse would result in some hilarious internet memes.


Yeah, but reproduction is only like 20% of what separates you from the constructs, undead, and other non-living things.

I'm in it for the consumption and excretion in addition to the passing on of DNA. Actually, since I don't really want kids, I guess I'm in it for the other stuff.

But yeah, much of our societal systems are set up around the reproduction part.


Wait. David Duke = Jesse Jackson, and Cornel West is crazy?

What did I miss?

I think many people hear 'white privilege' and think of the old Eddie Murphy SNL skit where he gets done up as a white person, and goes around getting free money from banks and stuff. I think it is far more subtle, and varies by situation, location, and many other factors.

I see it most obviously when I get involved with any court setting. There is almost always a disproportionate number of minorities coming up before the judge, and I think that starts with more getting pulled over and ends with more in jail. Having been before judges on several occasions, I'm always glad to be white and well spoken in those situations, although I know it isn't fair.

I don't have time at the moment, but the town I live in is 85+% white, and race is a factor in many aspects of life here.


National lawyers guild are always on the edge of First Amendment stuff.

National Lawyers Guild recent activity.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
"The Most Important Rule" wrote:
...Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games.

I consider some minor house rules to be the way the game was intended to be played. Pathfinder is intend to be used to play games people enjoy, part of that is that it is customizable, because not everyone enjoys the game for the same reasons.

I change some of the rules and ignore some of the guidelines, but I can point to The Most Important Rule, and say that I'm playing exactly as the developers intended.


During the day, the 120 degree temperatures and lack of water should make any sane person stay clear.

A couple of Brass dragons with the vampire template should make it even more dangerous at night.

Also, great potential for story in how brass dragons acquired the vampire template. If full vampire template is too strong, consider making them spawn under control of a different type of vampire.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I usually hate dogs and horses, but...

[Clenched fist salute]

Loukanikos, the Greek anarchist dog photo gallery

BEST. DOG. EVER.

A dog like that could make Mayor or even Governor!

Check out the photo at the end of the article!

EDIT: Also, those Greeks don't mess around!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

NYTimes article about today's protest in Ferguson

"Organizers at the rally on Saturday called on demonstrators to drive on Interstate 70 and other area highways at 4:30 p.m. Monday, turn their hazard lights on and stop their vehicles for four and a half minutes to symbolize those four and a half hours that Mr. Brown’s body lay in the middle of the street."

Ugh. Mixing cars and protesting is a shady thing for a variety of reasons.

Best part is at the end of the article:
"As the march turned into the park, a few dozen protesters began chanting, “Ain’t no justice in the park!” out of frustration that the march was not moving on to the city police station. “If they stop here, a lot of people will feel misled,” said Trinette Buck, 40.

Organizers urged order, intimating that splitting up would not help the protest. But eventually a few did break off, then a few more, then many more walking the two miles along the road, drawing supportive honks along the way. Withing an hour, hundreds had convened outside the police station, chanting, holding signs and even directing traffic on the nearby streets while a line of police officers stood behind police tape.

“There is no fear anymore,” said Ms. Buck. “It’s either stand up or die.”

HELL YEAH!


I agree with Deadmanwalking. If you are going to have an additional party member you control, it should be something in the background like a healing/defense character, and it should be the weakest member of the party.

The best advice I can give is to start off slow in terms of party power. Many first time GMs think it would be a good idea to give away power from the beginning of the game. This often involves high point buy, high wealth/magic items, and allowing many race, class, spell, etc. options. This may make first level more fun, but by the time the group is fifth level, they are blowing apart encounters. Start with the basics, and allow the players to slowly accumulate power.

I recommend 15 or 20 point buy, with no starting stat below 8 or above 17 after racial adjustment. Only core rulebook classes, races, feats, etc. A explicit agreement that all PCs treat each other as allies and comrades. If you are make an opposed check or attack against a fellow PC, your character becomes and NPC. I also don't allow PCs to be psychos, loners, idiots, or any character that doesn't belong in a group.

I would also include an agreement not to specialize in action-denial character builds. A little is OK, but if every encounter involves a PC tripping, color spraying, or holding the enemy, things get boring real fast.

You might also want to start off with a limited campaign (say 1-4 level) with an agreement to either continue, or reboot at that point.

Good luck, and have fun!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And one more!

Wow! This guy is a lunatic! I don't know if this has been posted before, but yeow!

The scary thing is that he is part of some organization, the "Oath Keepers", where you can just say that crazy stuff, and it seems like no one blinks an eye. I watched about three minutes of the video, and had to shut it off. I can't imagine sitting through an hour of that BS.


LazarX wrote:
If you were never arraigned, you weren't charged with anything. Not an unknown thing to happen in mass arrests at events like this.

I was finally brought before a judge at about the 26 hour mark, and charged with 3 violations and a misdemeanor.

EDIT: Here is a post that tells what happened

LazarX wrote:
You can be arrested and held for up to 24 hours, then at that point you MUST be either arraigned or cut loose.

Yeah, NYC screwed that one up, that was one of many things that led to the class action settlement victory. Some people were held for up to 72 hours before seeing a judge that week.

Here is an article about it.


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Auxmaulous wrote:

Yet according to the link you posted it was a protest. Critical Mass is a left-wing cyclist movement/gathering - which was gathering at the RNC.

You can discuss or argue about police treatment and how they handled the situation - don't lie about the premise, it just makes your overall argument look disingenuous.

It is called many different things by many different people, from a parade, procession, caravan, protest, etc. Having been pulled into the legal side of things, I was going by the definition used by Justice Stallman, who noted, "Federal Court Judge William Pauley] held that participation in the Critical Mass bicycle rides constitutes ‘expressive association’ entitled to First Amendment protection.” While it may seem like splitting hairs, from a legal perspective, it can make a big difference in what laws and protections apply.

Since we are getting specific about things, critical mass had been happening every month in NYC for about 10 years before the RNC came to town. During that time, there was almost no police attention. In 2003 NYC hosted "Bike Summer" and critical mass was a listed event on a calendar put out by the city. Those rides were some of the best, with thousands of riders of all types and a great vibe. The August 2004 ride took place days before the RNC started, and had been scheduled years before the RNC. Since then the police have spent millions and millions of dollars to crack down on a bicycle ride. The city has also spent many millions of dollars in legal fees and court settlements. I have personally been followed by a police helicopter, and seen dozens and dozens of cops and all manner of equipment every month for YEARS!

Krensky- Sorry you seem to have had a bad experience with CM. I find the streets bring out the worst in some people, regardless of if they are on a bike, motorcycle, car, truck, or shoes. As nice as it would be to have more of a structure to control what happens during CM, in NYC at least the police have made it clear that anyone associating themselves with CM will be targeted. Despite the problems with CM, I am reminded at times like this of a memorial ride I went on several years ago. After visiting about a dozen different locations where cyclists had been killed in the past year, we gathered at the steps of city hall for some speeches. One of the speakers was the father of a young child had recently been killed. He wrapped up his speech by saying that next year, instead of marching on the sidewalks, they would take over the street! A few folks who I knew from CM and I exchanged nervous glances, as we knew what the reality of doing that entailed. We knew that when it really came down to it, people were quite willing to trade many dead children and adults for the convenience of the automobile. I have come to grips that I too am willing to shrug off many deaths rather then walk, ride, or take public transport, but I don't hold it against people who make an effort to minimize the negative effects of the automobile, even if their methods are not above reproach.

It is important to remember that many aspects of our lives have rare but serious consequences. Police are no exception. Everyone wants to stop crime, but armed and militarized police are going to result in more dead children and adults. Just like traffic, it is accepted as a fact of life, but keep in mind that without effort (effort that may not be perfect), it could be a whole lot worse.

EDIT: At this hour, ten years ago , I had spent the night in the filthy Pier 57, was loaded onto a prison bus and driven to "the tombs". I spent the afternoon waiting on that parked bus, chained to my friend and several others. My "arresting officer" was not there, and only he was allowed to take me off the bus and into the jail. At some point late in the day he arrived, and we were finally taken in for fingerprints, bathroom access, mug shots, really bad bologna sandwiches, and finally access to phones. Still hadn't seen a lawyer or had a chance to wash my hands. Still didn't know what I was charged with.


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Ten years ago on this very night, about about this exact time, is when I got arrested. It wasn't even a protest, but the overblown policing thing was in full effect that week in New York because of the Republican Convention.

Here is video of the scene on the street where I was later arrested. I'm the guy in the orange shirt who is "assisted" into the scene by the NYPD at 1:55. The guy on the ground at about the 5 minute mark is my friend who was 16 years old at the time. A day of horrible detention followed. After many years in court, I was awarded a $1,000 as part of a class action lawsuit settlement, but here we are ten years later, and I haven't seen a dime.

I hope the people of Ferguson get faster compensation for having their rights violated.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As much as I like the idea of a jail "sit-in", I think that tactic stopped working once we entered the tough-on-crime era. The problem is that detaining people, especially for a period of a few days, is just not that expensive. It gets even cheaper if you do a really half-assed and crappy job of running a prison. I don't think you could ask people to spend more then a day or two under those conditions. Also, I'm guessing that since 9/11, they aren't strapped for cash. If they really need the money, Homeland SSecurity would love the chance to erect some new detention facilities.

Sadly, it seems like none of the politicians from the president to their local council are are aligning themselves with the people of Ferguson, and many are aligning with the police. I think the police will back off until the spotlight fades, then it's payback time for making them look bad!


pres man wrote:
Ferguson P.D. doesn't have that many African-Americans.

I wasn't aware that they were the only department operating in Ferguson these past two weeks.

I'm not asking anyone to take my experiences as evidence. If you care about it one way or another, look for yourself. You will find numerous examples of the police and prosecutors "busting" anarchists, but then getting laughed out of court.

This isn't some new thing or isolated case. This has been going on for at least ten years now, and is very well documented.

"[Missouri State Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal] reported that there was an “outside influence” causing some of the unrest in Ferguson. “We’re going to have to find ways to calm down this community while getting out some of the negative impact. And we have anarchists here, which we do not welcome in this community” she said. Chappelle-Nadal also seemed to agree with Carlson’s assertion that some of the protesters were from “out of town.” "

Miami Model:
**Public relations, "information warfare", newspeak/spin:**
"terrorists/violent protesters coming" vs "well trained officers".
"event meaningful target for terrorism."
"police will protect the right to protest."
"anarchists and criminal elements", dramatic Seattle WTO or London imagery.
display of confiscated "weapons" prove malintent.
"unpermitted protests can continue" due to police good will.
independent media targeted, cameras, video confiscated.


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Quark Blast wrote:


As far as Fergietown? Don't know. Other than the mayor and governor upping the anti with the protesters (and rioters - lets face it, there were anarchists types in the crowd who had no other purpose in mind than fomenting destruction) by their dictator-state paramilitary declarations, I don't know what went wrong.

Just a quick note: "Out of town anarchists taking over local protest groups and plotting violent destruction" - is a made up fantasy. It is propaganda the cops use before every protest, but it's just a lie designed to justify police excess. I have known many anarchists, and they are generally planning a vegan sausagefest, not mayhem. Most are highly politically aware, and understand that engaging the police in violence is exactly what the police want, not what the protestors want. People don't go to protests if their goal is just to destroy stuff or steal without political motivation- too many cops around, and almost no other protesters will tolerate it. Furthermore, people never bring weapons to protests. Before every major protest, the police raid some "anarchist hideout" and claim to find all manner of "weapons", but it is BS. They find kitchen knives and hammers and all the other stuff that is in every kitchen and garage in the world.

There are a small number of people who attend protests with the plan to spray paint, smash windows, or engage in similar property damage, but I have never heard of anyone attending a protest with plans to assault the police - never.

The bottom line is that protest is about getting heard and drawing attention to a cause. Property damage is one of the best means of drawing mainstream attention. Like it or not, it works. Jesus did it, the 'founding fathers' did it, Gandhi did it, and virtually every protest event that has ever succeeded has done it, or maintained the real threat of it.

Oh yeah, there is one group who practices for violence and comes equipped with all manner of weapons - the cops. If you want to find out-of-towners looking to turn things violent, look no further then the police!


houstonderek wrote:

Fergie,

If you're planning on committing a crime,...

Who snitched? It is ok though, I'm not planning on getting caught!

My only experience with jail is in NYC. During the RNC they put us in Pier 57 - a filthy bus depot with chainlink cages topped with razorwire. Then Central Booking, or "The Tombs". The tombs were depressing and the food was really bad, but I did not spend enough time there or mix with the regulars enough to get a real idea about the place.


Comrade Anklebiter, do you still have a PS2 for gaming?

If so, PM me your address.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Europe is not a monolithic entity and while some Western European countries have reasonably humane systems - would you choose a Russian, Ukrainian or an Albainian prison over an American one.

Do I get to pick what State in America?


"In the war of the races, I'll side with the bears"
-Edward Abbey

More
music
to riot by:

Public enemy - Fight the Power

Dr.Dre - The day the niggaz took over

Frank Zappa - Trouble Every Day

The Goats - TV Cops

And on the subject of the "N-word"
Public enemy - I Don't Wanna Be Called Yo Niga


In NYC there is a pretty cool group called 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care.

They are the ones who are willing to break with the "official" police propaganda, and speak truth to power. I have real respect for these guys (and ladies) as they catch hell for being black, being cops, and being cops who speak the truth (especially when it comes to other members of the NYPD. I'm guessing that Ferguson doesn't have a similar group, and could really use one right now!

So 100, out of 30,000... It's a start. But more seriously, there is a segment of the NYPD that is very scary. They were once part of the special Street Crime Unit (motto: "We Own The Night"), until it got shut down for all kinds of bad stuff. The white shirts (upper level cops) use them as a tool, often in very inappropriate situations. My point is that like in most large groups, most people are fairly apathetic/distracted, and there are others at both ends of the spectrum. What seems to make the most difference is how the people in command use each end of the spectrum.

PS I was also out in Guttenberg, Iowa last month, and hung out with a really nice cop. The County she was in is the hardest hit by meth in the country, but she still treated the people she interacted with link human beings.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

(update) Reds, Rioting, and how it Really is!

The Four R's of the Goblin Reeducation Camp. (The fourth R is for Reeducation)

How about the Peekskill riot of 49! Happened in my backyard, when Paul Robeson had a concert that was attacked by stone throwing mobs. The police basically watched as yokels formed a gauntlet of stone throwing rednecks miles long as concert goers fled back to NYC. When they were going to have a second concert, they found several white snipers in trees planning to assassinate Paul Robeson.

1949 Peekskill Riots

My town used to have a communist enclave in my town, but I heard from a prominent local socialist and international activist, and photographer, that it has dwindled down to only a couple of old school Communists.

But I often think of this incident as an example of people in desperate need of police assistance. Some times, riot gear is needed. Law enforcement should be used to protect peoples right to protest, not stop them from protesting. I try to keep it in mind that the cop poking me with his billy club might be needed when the drunk rednecks show up...

On the other hand, the cops are usually the ones driving the pick up trucks.

EDIT: I just realized that I was arrested on the 55th anniversary of the first concert/riot. To think that people were having that same sickly crowd violence and fear feeling over half a century before. Weird.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

OK, as fun as the Gangsta Rap stuff is, I have to share a link that is one of the best things I have ever seen on the internet or anywhere else. I wish it was not so relevant, but sadly, these words have never been more needed then they are right now.

Sgt. Shamar Thomas vs the NYPD

I hate to ruin my well established tough-guy image, but I have to admit shedding a tear the first times I watched this.

Please watch this and show a friend.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Here's the full article: Washington Post: "I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me."

First of all, Fukc that asshoel!

I would also point out that he is a the perfect poster child for the LAPD. If you want to know why they are one of the most hated police departments in the world, THAT's why! What to know the opposite of correct police behavior - LAPD.

Their behavior was the inspiration to an entire genre of music:
Cop Killa - Ice Tea

F&++ tha Police - NWA

Guerrillas in tha mist - Paris

(I would have linked "Coffee Donuts and Death, but the intro to that song is a little too harsh to link in a public forum. But almost every song by Paris is about cops and racial injustice.)

LAPD sucked 20+ years ago when all these songs were made, and I don't think much has changed.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Fake Healer wrote:
The police are responding to people who are violating the law, not peaceful protesters.

But legally, you can violate the law and still be a peaceful protester. Or more accurately, the law applies differently when you are exercising your constitutional rights. The police can take actions based on there opinions, but whether they are legal or not is up to a judge to decided just as it is up to a judge to decide if the protesters actions are legal. In almost every major protest event like this that uses the Miami Model, the actions of the police fail to pass the threshold for legality. I would say that as a general rule, the police always lose a class action lawsuit (ask me how I know...).

Again, "being part of a crowd" does not make it legal for the police to take action against you. Individual probable cause is required for every charge a person is accused of. Using force against a person who is not reasonably suspected of a specific crime is no more lawful for a police officer then for you or I.

EDIT: Thanks for the good discussion everyone, see you tomorrow.


ShadowcatX wrote:


Less of a difference than you might think actually. Even criminals have rights.

While I agree with your statement, I don't think having rights prevents them from being violated. If someone can violate your rights with near impunity then "having rights" becomes almost meaningless.

EDIT: To apply that to the people of Ferguson- Do they have a right to peacefully assemble, if police interfere with them when they attempt to exercise that right? Do the people need to be granted permission from the police in order to exercise their rights?

vvv Agree vvv


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Fake Healer wrote:

Sorry, you can't break the law as a way of protesting the police. You follow the legal rules in place to protest or you risk being treated as...GASP...a criminal.

Here is the tricky part: Laws apply differently to protests then they do to other disturbances. This often gets into the greyer areas of the law, and here is a surprise to many people- many cops are not very familiar with the details of the law. Many cops don't know the fine line of when some some laws may be applied and some many not. {Note: Not a slam on cops here, you can be a good cop without knowing the letter of the law.]

However, when a large scale operation like what is happening in Ferguson is going down, it is a forgone conclusion that the police should operate by legally approved guidelines. In Ferguson the police seem to be operating by a different set of instructions, and it is very important to know who is authorizing this stuff, and whether it follows protocol or goes against it.

I should also point out that cops don't have the power to designate you a criminal, nor are they allowed to sentence you. Police are not supposed to treat you like a "criminal", they are supposed to treat you like a suspect, and there is a big difference!

Finally, I've done all manner of marches, protests, demonstrations, vigils, etc. Some small, some with over a million people. They are a joke. A circle-jerk. They hardly do a damn thing. The media covers you as a traffic disturbance, and says your message was incoherent. The cops spy on you, film you beat and arrest you. The politicians ignore it or pay it lip service, then do whatever they were going to do anyway. If anyone has a better idea to get real change, I'm open to hearing it. Until then, I stand by whatever way the people of Ferguson want to stand up to the unlawful actions of the police. I won't go so far as to say I support people looting, but I have more respect for them then the cops and suck-up politicians.


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If we are talking about a "criminal element" in Ferguson, I'm looking at the guys driving military vehicles and throwing tear gas and stun grenades around.

I can watch those videos and see law breaking galore, but it is mostly the police committing the crimes. On the non-police side I see pictures of some looting, what look to be a couple of arson related events and property destruction, and lots of minor traffic stuff, as well as what I'm guessing is a fair amount of public drunkenness. From the Police, I see some very serious civil rights violations, and a whole lot of "continuum of force" violations. Most troublesome is a very obvious failure to secure individual probable cause before using force, including less-lethal weaponry.

Even if people are throwing some rocks and bottles (pretty much the definition of riot) it doesn't justify taking actions against the general population. Even in riotous situations, the law does not recognize guilt-by-association.

The police are acting in an illegal manner, and citizens are not required to obey orders the police are not allowed by law to make. Either the police can back off and get someone in there with creditability, or they can keep having a turf war with locals. The protestors are the ones who are going to be winning the court cases when all of this gets shaken out in the courts*.

*Assuming there is substantial national public attention.


HarbinNick wrote:
Just looters. I think shooting a few looters would stop the others. It would make you stop thinking "free stuff" and start thinking "stay home and live".

"Stay home and live" -I would rather protest in the street then live like a coward.


“With these additional resources in place,” said Mr. Nixon, a Democrat in his second term, “the Missouri State Highway Patrol and local law enforcement will continue to respond appropriately to incidents of lawlessness and violence, and protect the civil rights of all peaceful citizens to make their voices heard.

Someone needs to slap this guy in the back of the head if he thinks these idiots are acting "appropriately".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/12/michael-brown-protests_n_5672163.h tml

I can't watch that video without thinking, "Steroids it, all you steroids steroids! Steroids it!".

EDIT: Anyone have video of this scene?:
https://twitter.com/EliKMBC/status/501591669679329280/photo/1


Here is a link to the article describing how the police edited video in the cases I was involved with:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/12/nyregion/12video.html
That video editing, and the article that came exposed it were the reason my charges were dropped.

Also, the original charge against me was Disorderly Conduct for... Blocking traffic!

The cops aren't very original with this stuff.


ShadowcatX wrote:
What are the outcomes everyone hopes comes out of this?

Much more scrutiny of military responses to protests.

More racial/class equality and understanding.

But I'm not holding my breath. These kind of events can usually be spun to support any agenda.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aranna wrote:
Shouldn't we try now to see all the sides (and there are more than two) and work to rebuild trust? If the sides cling to distrust then this will happen again at some point.

I find this idea or rebuilding trust troublesome, at least without some drastic consequences. Everything about this incident, and the build up to it has injustice written all over it. Why in the world would the people trust these cops?

Also, our countries founding documents are all about NOT having to trust your government. You don't have a 2nd Amendment because you have faith in your government. You have it so that The People control the government, and not the other way around. Good government is derived through transparency, not blind faith. Right winger types should be all over that idea, and I think they would be if it were white people resisting their government.

EDIT: Not to say that I disagree with what I think your point is Aranna, just that changes, big changes need to be made for it to happen.


Aranna wrote:
"Why didn't the police shoot those looters?"

Traditionally the answer is- they don't shoot (or even try to stop the looting) because it is a black or minority neighborhood being looted. If that was the rich part of town, you can bet that stuff would never be tolerated. When I was in a march on Wall Street, there were THOUSANDS of police standing shoulder to shoulder to protect the richest peoples assets. They just don't do that for poorer people.

The bottom line is that the police don't stop the looting because they don't care, and/or are not skilled enough at law enforcement to do it.


People are looting because the police force has proven to be incapable of correctly doing its job.

This stuff isn't rocket science. We have been dealing with this sort of thing in the US since the days of the Boston Tea Party (looters!), and the Boston "Massacre". How did that work out for the British back then?

The Ferguson PD F-ed up. They shot someone who was surrendering or at least not a threat. Then they left his body in the street. They also seemed to take no action against the shooter. At that point I would think most traditional policing play books (because, you know, you can learn from the past...) would say outreach, get the community involved, make compromises, hear what people have to say, etc. all that boring miserable work. Instead someone decided, "we don't do nation building." and went in GI Joe vs Cobra. It is a lot less work to play guns and APCs, then you know... do your job. Now the people could have respected their authority, or like in almost EVERY SINGLE time this stuff happens from 1770's Boston, to 2010 Iraq, they tell the police to get bent. They show the police that they do not respect their authority.

I think the big question is who ordered breaking out the "insurrection" playbook? Was it the local guy, the county, state, or homeland security or what? Or, has the actual protocol been changed, and who authorized that?


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Thanks for making great points everybody!

The issue of terms such as criminal, illegal, rioter, protester, are personal for me.

Ten years ago I was the one who got arrested when the Miami Model was used during the 2004 RNC visit to New York City. I was right in the middle of a situation that could very well be described as riotous, and was arrested 8/27/04. The NYPD Brute Squad beat up my friend, impounded hundreds of bicycles, and slapped overly tight zip cuffs on hundreds of us. Then things got weirder. We were held overnight in a huge really filthy bus repair building. In this big place they had built metal chainlink cages topped with coiled razorwire. The next day, a variety of handcuff arrangements, hours spent on a hot bus, mugshots, fingerprints, bologna, and late that night, I finally saw a judge and appointed defense attorney. That was the first time since my arrest that I found out what I was accused of: Two counts of Disorderly Conduct (Blocking traffic and failure to disperse), parading without a permit, and Obstruction of government administration (a misdemeanor similar to resisting arrest). Over 24 hours after I was detained, I was an indited criminal, released until my next court date. The mayor said that the actions of some protesters were like a "form of terrorism", and 1,800 others would have near identical experiences that week.

However, things didn't actually happen the way the prosecutors claimed. Many people had video taped the arrests and protests. When it came to light that the city was editing video evidence and this was reported in the NY Times, my criminal charges were dropped, as were many of the 1,800 people arrested that week. In fact, about 90% of the cases related to the RNC have been dismissed.

Several lawsuits have been filed against NYC. Recently the largest protest related class action settlement in history has been awarded to those arrested.

Now were are only a week or two from the 10 year anniversary of that experience. A month ago I spoke before the State Judge in protest of that settlement verdict for failure to designate where I was arrested as a "Mass Arrest Location Subclass". As it is, I only fall into the class of people who were put into the overly tight zip cuffs, and subjected to the filthy bus depot. The city was found to have done several actions that did not pass the legal threshold, such as arresting people in mass groups, and poor conditions of confinement. Other actions by the city, such as holding people for extended period was deemed legal because people on the internet said they would keep protesting after getting arrested.

The short version of all this is: when I was an "accused criminal", they held me in a filthy pen, took my stuff, and treated me like s#!* for a day, then it was court dates and such for months. When I accused them of being criminals, it takes ten years, and now they pay me with everyone's tax money. In two weeks, ten years will have passed since then, and I still haven't gotten a dime from it.

Law and morality have very little connection. A vast number of people generally held in the highest esteem in our society, from Galileo, to George Washington, to Gandhi have all been accused of some of the harshest crimes. While it has generally bad connotations, the truth is that being a criminal sometimes puts you on the moral high ground, while some of the worst actions are not illegal at all. What is legal can become illegal, and the process often takes years or decades.

As related to Ferguson, what the kid did in the store would not result in criminal charges, and probably nothing more serious then a warning or probation. Even if he were found to have committed a violation that would not make him a "criminal" anymore then getting a speeding ticket or forgetting to insure your car for a month- wait, sorry, that is a felony, the most serious form of crime. Anyway, if you or I started shooting people with less lethal rounds and using military vehicles against crowds, we would quickly be convicted criminals, however the legality will probably take many years to decide.


Please be fairly civil with each other in this thread. I don't want it locked before I get home from work.


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Andrew R wrote:
Also, what should you do when riots start to get violent? Let them?

If it is the police being violent, it becomes a very difficult situation to deal with. Police seem to know this, and use violence very effectively. I am amazed at how often someone is willing to step forward and justify the violence of the State.


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At first it was "just" another tragic shooting of a minority kid by a white cop in a area that is 2/3 black, yet 50 out of 53 of the cops are white. But things have gone from a normal level of horrible, to a more serious level of really horrible.

There are deeply disturbing things happening in the aftermath of the shooting. Several factors point towards the adoption of the "Miami Model" by "local" police. The Miami Model is a fairly sophisticated, yet also simple set of tactics that the police have been using for over a decade to clamp down on protest. You can find out about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_model

In Ferguson, the police have really gone for the militarization stuff including the armored personal carriers, what look to me like guns more fit for war then crowd control, as well as masks, no ID, full body armor, etc. The police are making preemptive arrests, blocking off areas, and treating journalists who are not "embedded" as criminals. They are also pushing many of the common propaganda lines of the Miami Model, such as "bad outsiders disrupting local peaceful protests", "good people stay home", "allowed vs forbidden protests" etc. I can say from my own personal experience, as well as following large scale protest events for over ten years, that the whole thing is horse s$@#!

At almost every major event the Miami Model is used, the corporate media play along, a "good protester" march is allowed, then the cops beat up and jail people on a massive scale. Usually the cases are thrown out of court on basic constitutional grounds. Years later, the arrested and assaulted collectively get millions from tax payers, the police in charge get promoted, and the whole thing gets repeated in the next city.

What is happening in Ferguson is especially disturbing because of the rapid nature of the use of the Miami Model. Normally it takes a while to build up, but it seems to have happened overnight in Ferguson. I can basically guarantee that the local cops got some serious assistance from someone at a Federal level, in much the same way that they got help to crush the Occupy movement. I can also guarantee that this isn't the last time a response like this will happen at a smaller and more local level.

Finally, there is the old saying about hard hats making hard heads. When you dress people up like stormtroopers (Nazi stormtroopers, not the fun kind) guess what? They act the part. Expect them to treat the local citizens as enemy combatants, right down to the detention and later advanced interrogation techniques. You didn't expect that stuff to just end overseas did you? The guys doing it over there came home, joined the police, and are willing to please there commanding officers.

One last thing- I had heard something about St Louis reaching an agreement back in the day between The Powers and The People in regards to maintaining a level of peace. Seems like shooting an unarmed teenager violated that agreement, and rather then make peace, The Powers is doubling down on violence. I think this could lead to a much larger scale problem unless some serious negotiation/restitution takes place.


fictionfan wrote:
Reading this thread I get the impression that both side think the same thing, but are misrepresenting the other side so that they can Win the argument. Unless anyone really thinks that the best action for a cleric is to Top up the parties HP in the middle of combat when they are not likely to go down that round?

I suspect another point of disagreement might be exaggerated by the unexpected and unknown nature of tabletop RPG. Saying something is better then another option requires a baseline, however that is represented at best by the CR system and few charts... So, basically there is no baseline.

But I suspect that about 25% of people would say you should almost never heal in combat, 50% would say that you should heal when it is needed to keep someone from excess risk of dropping, and 25% would say you should heal when there isn't a better option. I don't think anyone thinks you should ALWAYS or NEVER heal.


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Slinks off to go heal with the other uncool kids...


I think the point is that you can cast all three of those spells, and still cast the empowered cure critical. And you haven't used any of your highest level spells or spent a gp.

Healing doesn't prevent you from doing other cool things.


Suichimo wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Considering that neither of these options uses any substantial resources, or requires any special feats, equipment, build (other then healing domain), I would say that healing is VERY effective!
Just want to say that Cure Critical is either a 4th or 5th level spell. At level 10, that is definitely a substantial resource.

The healing domain cleric is easily capable of swapping out other spells and using domain spells to cast:

5 empowered cures serious
5 empowered cure critical
3 empowered cure light mass and a breath of life, or other combos.
Also, you can channel 5d6 about 4-5/day, cast a half dozen each empowered cure light and moderate, and use the heal skill to heal a little as well. Next level you get access to the Heal spell (110hp healing), and your channel jumps to 6d6. This doesn't spend a dime on wands, scrolls, potions, rods, etc. even though you get 7,000gp for the encounter. It is also without a feat, trait, racial ability, or anything else but choosing healing as one of your two domains, and channeling positive energy instead of negative.

A fourth level spell, (that could be memorized as any other) is not insignificant, but I would not call it a substantial use of resources in a CR 11 "Challenging" encounter.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Not to mention a single CR 11 fight against a party of level 10's is so pathetic it barely bears mentioning. That's one of those things that more optimized characters are easily capable of soloing. If you need to heal for that I'd be worried about the safety of your group.

If the encounter is "Epic" difficulty, the average damage goes up from 50 damage a round, to 60. Again, assuming that all attacks can be made and are successful. It also uses the "High Average Damage" number.

My point is that under the default conditions of the game, healing works just fine. If you want to optimize damage, and optimize healing, I think it still holds up.


In answer to the original post about how to operate without healing- It is simple, have your dominated creatures, undead minions, bound outsiders, and simulacrums do everything for you.

Anything less, and your not playing the game as efficiently as possible, and thus your doing it wrong!

But seriously, healing in combat works just fine.

While it is true that healing can't keep up with damage indefinitely, it most certainly can be effective enough to be a very important action. For example, take a 10th level cleric with the healing domain, casting cure critical wounds- 4d8+10 empowered averages about 38 healing per round. If almost 40 hp of healing/round isn't keeping the character (who probably has about 100hp) in the fight, you probably need to switch up your tactics. Especially considering that the "high avg damage" of a CR 11 creature is only 50.

If multiple characters have gotten banged up, a channel will heal 5d6 (avg 17hp). while this isn't a very big chunk of hp at 10th level, if you hit everyone in the party, and a summoned creature, mount, familiar, etc. It could likely be almost 100hp of healing.

Considering that neither of these options uses any substantial resources, or requires any special feats, equipment, build (other then healing domain), I would say that healing is VERY effective!

Repost from this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbph?Myth-Busters-Pathfinder-Edition#1


Sissyl wrote:
Such a war today would undisputably involve massive numbers of nuclear warheads.

I think the same would have been said about chemical warfare before WWII. Nukes have significant drawbacks, and would probably only see widespread use only under a very specific set of circumstances.

I see the sides shaking out to something like the "coalition" for teh second Iraq war as the starting point. US, UK, Australia, Israel - basically the Rupert Murdoch countries on the same side. Some of the former Nato countries would also be pulled in such as Germany and France, and maybe even Poland.

Then there is Russia and several former Warsaw countries, especially in the Balkans.

North Africa, and much of the Middle East would form a third group, probably based on Jihad against foreigners coming after their oil. Indonesia, Pakistan and Turkey would probably fall into this side as well.

China, North Korea, and one or two other neighbors would probably join up to maintain China as a upcoming world power.

India is surrounded by possible aggressors, and would probably be more concerned about maintaining balance and keeping its neighbors from nibbling away at its borders.

Then you have some real questions such as Brazil and a few other Central and South American countries. I also have no idea where some parts of southern or far Northern Europe might end up, although I would think it would be more a reaction to threats from Russia or the Middle East then love of allies.

Finally, I think there would be a whole lot of shifting, sneaking diplomacy such as between Hitler and Stalin before WWII. The alliances and map before the conflict would look very different then a year or two into things.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
"But what I really think is, it should be like a corporation. You pay a million dollars in taxes, you get a million votes. How's that?"

Gasp! That is UN-American! You need to BUY those votes from the private sector, not get them from big government!

PS Thanks thejeff! You said it better then I could.


Fouquier-Tinville wrote:
. wrote:

Pretty much what I said. Not just homophobic, though I'd count "proposing castration for sodomy" to be pretty damn homophobic by today's standards.

But pretty much ok if you kept it discreet. Stayed at least nominally in the closet. Both for homosexuality and for heterosexual affairs.
Pfft. We declared sodomy "an imaginary crime" and abolished all laws against homosexuality in 1791. Eat that, Jefferson.

Sparta had man-boy sodomy ingrained in its culture in 400BC!

[sodomizes mic]
[drops mic]
[walks off stage]


Smurfs got it worse!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa782wOrUVM


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Kryzbyn wrote:
Well, that's certainly one opinion.

I did hold back my real feeling since this is a forum where people are expected to be polite, and not use four letter words.

I guess I'm not a fan of governments using force against civilian populations.

Never bought the justifications for it.


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Lord Snow wrote:
... In the following few days the IDF raised a polite hell.

Or as it is more commonly know-war crimes.

While I feel bad for many of the civilians, the rulers of Israel deserve to be hung by their necks from the nearest street lamp.

Occupation, torture, apartheid, murder, etc. etc. these are the actions of scumbags, not a civilized society. Your governments actions are to blame for these current problems.

Lord Snow, I'm glad your alright, and I'm deeply sorry you are a victim of location and circumstance. Clearly you are not to blame for any of this. I feel great sorrow for the kids and others killed on both sides, but Israel's government is less deserving of sympathy then just about anything short of North Korea. Israel is the source of its own suffering, and needs to get its morals right, or suffer the consequences.

PS Don't get me wrong, the US plays a huge part (especially financial/arms) in all of these problems, and if there is a night of long knives (to put it in Nazi terms), the US government would also get thinned out quite a bit.

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