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Manshoon

FallofCamelot's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber. FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,900 posts (1,919 including aliases). 7 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 13 Pathfinder Society characters. 9 aliases.


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Silver Crusade

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DrDeth wrote:
Eigengrau wrote:
Everyone got around 400xp or so. Leveling is going to suck balls at that rate.
Thank you for the report. No magic, no loot and no exp. As Mark Twain said "Fun? Yes, but of a mild sort."

Sounds like a fantastic game to me. I don't play for loot, xp or magic. I play for the plot.

Stop criticising a game you haven't seen based on your own preconceptions, it's rude.

Silver Crusade **

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I've run a pfs scenario for 7 players before now. It was a special no less.

I wouldn't do it again...

Silver Crusade

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Do 6 points of damage.

Silver Crusade

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Think of it in cold war terms. The gods are the USA and Russia brimming with enough "nuclear weapons" to totally obliterate everything. There is no pact, no ceasefire, just the understanding that actual full all out war is nothing but mutually assured destruction of everything.

So in that scenario prime material worlds are the Korea's, Vietnam's and Cuba's of the multiverse. Places where the gods fight by proxy through agents and followers.

So in short Gods don't directly interfere because that would cause a cataclysm which would destroy everything including themselves.

Silver Crusade **

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CathalFM wrote:

Which is why both of us quoted DragonCats rule which singles out phones as something which should be banned at the table. I think I (might be possibly able to?) speak for FoC when I say that the rule should be more along the lines of:

"You are there to play PFS, you should not be entertaining yourself in other ways like checking facebook on your phone or reading that book you can't out down"

Yup that's fine :)

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Dragoncat wrote:
5. Don't bring your phone to the table, and especially don't text people in the middle of the game.

Not sure about this one. Some people (myself included) have their books on pdf's and use their phone or tablet to look at them.

Also some gamers I know are on call or need to have their phone at the table for family or work related reasons.

Heck, I don't want to miss an important emergency call and have to explain that the reason that I couldn't take that call is because I was gaming. That's not a legitimate excuse.

So yeah, I disagree here.

Silver Crusade

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I don't always play the same character but I do have preferences.

I like characters that do the job themselves, so characters that rely on summoning, pets or buffing others do not hold my interest for long.

I like civilised characters so I'd rather play a fighter, sorcerer or inquisitor than a barbarian, druid or ranger.

Defined religion>"powers from a mysterious source"

I want options, many options. Spamming the same thing over and over, no matter how powerful, is not for me. (I'm looking at you witch.)

If I have a spell list I want it to be awesome. I don't care how useful a spell freedom of movement is, I'm here to blow things up and turn my opponents into paint.

On that note I don't want to confuse my enemy I want to blow them up. Sure it isn't optimal, makes no sense and is just needlessly flashy but you guys can keep your Toyota Prius' I'll be over here with my Dodge Viper thanks...

2 weapons>2H weapon>ranged weapons>being set on fire>becoming an accountant>sword and board.

If you are a 6 or 9 level caster and your spells are a side note then your class sucks.

I think that pretty much covers it.

Silver Crusade

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Why are Eidolons so stupid?

Maybe they didn't work hard enough at school?

Silver Crusade

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If you feel no enthusiasm for running CotCT you won't get through it. So basically it's pointless starting.

Your group wants traditional fantasy and that's OK. Traditional fantasy doesn't have to be boring.

My advice? Come up with an idea and pitch it to your players. The bottom line is that both GM and players need to have buy in to the game, otherwise it's not going to be fun.

Silver Crusade

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Seth Parsons wrote:
@FallofCamelot: A good GM should be able to integrate those readily enough if needed/wanted.

Well sure. I could rewrite it too but that kind of makes running an AP pretty pointless.

For reference I have run or played every AP up to and including Shattered Star including the 3 Dungeon magazine ones. The only one's I have abandoned have been Council of Thieves and Serpent's Skull and I am in progress with Rise of The Runelords, Savage Tide and Shattered Star. In total I have either GMed or played to completion 9 AP's

Every one of the AP's I have enjoyed in some way. Even Second Darkness.

Reign of Winter is the first one I want to leave on the shelf to gather dust.

I accept the criticism of Legacy of Fire and yes, book 5 wasn't great but I would contend that Legacy of Fire has a better plot than Reign of Winter by a country mile. Legacy of Fire has a narrative whereas Reign of Winter has a long series of boring fetch quests. No recurring villains or characters, no intrigue, no twists or surprises and in the end nothing investing the players in the plot beyond a nebulous and pretty generic "save the world" plot. Where is the personal connection? Why should my players invest emotionally in the plot?

Just saving the world isn't enough. They need personal investment in what they are saving a trigger for the heroes journey. In Reign of Winter that's just not there.

Silver Crusade

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FattyLumpkin wrote:

Some AP adventures I'd love to see...

1) Mediogalti Island and the Red Mantis.

2) Mwangi Expanse and the Gorilla King.

3) Lastwall where the players take charge of a boarder fortress to defend and against the hoards of Belkzen.

4) A Five King's Mountain mega dungeon.

Paizo, just let me know when those are done. Thanks ;)

1) Is there enogh in that for an entire AP? Seems more like a module to me.

2) Serpent's Skull

3) Yup that sounds cool to me.

4) Thornkeep? Also Shattered Star is basically all dungeon all the time. I would hate to see a megadungeon, I'm dungeoned out... Some dwarf stuff might be good though...

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Eoxyn wrote:
This is exactly the kind of person I'd want to play with

This is exactly the sort of player I don't want to play with.

Silver Crusade **

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My Taldan Cleric fits the new order superbly. :)

Silver Crusade

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That's how I say them too...

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One of my regular players loves playing the healer, to the point of playing actual pacifistic oracles of life on more than one occasion.

So yeah you are not alone :)

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Wands of CLW are absolutely essential to avoid one simple question:

"So who is going to get stuck with the cleric this time?"

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Simple answer.

If you are the GM: It costs as much as you think it should cost.

If you are not the GM: Ask your GM.

The rules for creating new magic items are not hard and fast rules, more like guidelines. They are horribly abusable and should not be used by players.

Silver Crusade

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Whispering Cairn is amazing.

I'm not a fan of We Be Goblins but then again I really dislike goblins in general.

Silver Crusade

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Someone who can cast both Remove Curse and Remove Disease...

Silver Crusade

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Doesn't matter as much as people think it does to be honest.

At best you are going to get a few extra hit points or a slightly better will save but all in all the difference is very minor.

My rules are simple. Roll 4d6d1 until you get three valid sets between 20 and 40 point buy. Choose one.

Problem solved.

Silver Crusade

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No.

Your actual caster level does not increase just the level dependent effects of your spells.

The best way to describe it is with an example.

Say a 9th level wizard had the orange prism ioun stone. He would be able to cast a fireball as if he were a tenth level caster (i.e. a fireball at 10d6 damage not 9d6.)

He does not however count as a 10th level caster. He counts as a 9th level caster with +1 effective caster level.

The ioun stone does not increase the number of spell slots you have or your access to new spells. It only increases the numeric variables based on level within the spells themselves.

Silver Crusade

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1) Also the spell gives you no capacity to eavesdrop on a conversation. The key word here is "replies." If you send a message then someone can whisper a reply. That's it. You don't get to hear everything they are saying.

2) yes it has to be a whisper.

Silver Crusade

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thenovalord wrote:

If there are 3 worse than hungry storm, that doesn't bode well

Enjoyed 1 and 2 a lot, 4 was somewhat disappointing and a big dull dungeon, 3 was not good

Well I loathed book 2 and loved book 3. So there's that.

My issue with the campaign is that it got to Minkai waaaaay too late. Book 2 was a horrible grinding halt that took way too long and had nothing to do with the theme of an epic journey. How can it be an epic journey if you handwave hundreds of miles of said journey and instead spend 1/6th of the AP stuck in a boring, uninspired, artificial roadblock? Ugh...

Book 4 is OK and as dungeons go it's fine but again it does not really feed into the overall theme of the AP. Yeah I suppose there's some stuff about the origins of the big bad and it gives you that background but there were quicker and easier ways of doing that.

The actual overthrow of the evil rulers of Minkai takes place in the last 2 volumes. That's not enough time. In Curse of the Crimson Throne and Council of Thieves the whole AP is the build up of the resistance to the evil ruler. By comparison in Jade Regent it's so rushed that it feels like the locals are there going "Rebel? Really? Y'know we never thought of that! That's a great idea! Please lead us to victory random stranger who has zero knowledge of our current situation and has lived her entire life thousands of miles away! It's a flawless plan!"

What's worse is that the plan works. Amieko turns up and wins without much difficulty. It's a bit of an anti-climax.

That said for all my criticism it's not a bad AP it just could have been better.

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My players used the unusual tactic of dying.

Silver Crusade

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If they start doing it to your bad guys have the bad guys do it to them...

Silver Crusade

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Mikaze wrote:

looks at the previous two pages

Guys, seriously, what the hell?

This is like a new record. :(

Not a good record either...

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How long is a piece of string?

I have run, played, completed or at least started every AP with the exception of Reign of Winter, Wrath of the Righteous and Mummy's Mask. That includes the Dungeon Magazine AP's.

What I can tell you from that experience and discussions on this board is that every one of the AP's has it's champions including the so called "poor" AP's.

To clarify of the current AP's the following are the ones I would describe as having issues.

Second Darkness: This one has an utterly awful 5th book that has made a lot of groups rage quit on the spot. If you can rewrite that it's pretty OK otherwise.

Serpent's Skull: Book 3 is an utter mess which is very unfortunate because the events of that book are pretty much pivotal to the whole campaign.

Reign of Winter: Book 5 is a love it or hate it affair. Also some people (myself included) were underwhelmed by the less than heroic setup for the campaign.

Council of Thieves: Curse of the Crimson Throne did this kind of plot a lot better.

It all depends on what you want.

Simplicity:

Rise of the Runelords. It's straightforward, enjoyable and well written. I wouldn't recommend it for kids but otherwise you are set.

Story:

Curse of the Crimson Throne: The best plot of any AP by a wide margin. Great villain, atmospheric setting and a real coherency to the game.

Fantastical/Evocative:

Jade Regent and Legacy of Fire: Both have exotic settings with decent plots and high stakes. Just ditch the caravan rules if you are doing Jade Regent.

Themed:

Carrion Crown and Skull and Shackles: Both of these are very specific types of campaigns and both are decent. Basically if you like traditional horror or pirates then they do a good job.

Player led:

Kingmaker: This is the campaign that requires the most player input. If you like that kind of thing then you are set.

The best thing to do is to talk to your players and have a discussion of what sort of game/plot you would like to do. Then go from there.

Silver Crusade

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I can only go by my experience.

I live in England. All my life I have lived in a system of Nationalised healthcare. No one I have ever met considers the NHS to be anything other than a source of national pride. It was in the opening of the 2012 Olympics for Pete's sake.

When a relative got breast cancer her treatment was free and on the NHS (and successful I might add.) I know people whose children had life threatening conditions at birth, the treatment was paid for. When one of my in laws tripped and broke her hip she was rushed to hospital in a free ambulance to a state of the art facility where she received free care until she was back on her feet and free physiotherapy afterwards.

In our country this is the norm.

On the other hand I have an American friend who last week sent out a request on Facebook asking if anyone knew a doctor who could examine her as a favour because she's felt ill for ages and can't afford to visit one.

Now I'm not saying our system is the best in the world, nor am I saying that America sucks, it does many things better than where I am from. But healthcare is not one of them. You pay more for a system that does not cover everybody and generally offers inferior care to most people.

Honestly in the 21st century free universal healthcare should be a basic right of a citizen.

Silver Crusade

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No.

Silver Crusade **

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Huh...

I'm actually quite surprised. I was expecting an Osirion focus to go alongside Mummy's Mask. Maybe that fits with the events of the latter half of season 5 instead.

I'm happy with this though. Numeria is pretty damn cool.

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Moondragon Starshadow wrote:
HAN SHOT! GREEDO DIDN'T!

Fixed that for you.

Silver Crusade

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Erm... 5 completed adventure paths as a GM with two more almost finished (RotRL book 6 and AoW issue 11) and 3 completed as a player.

Just about fine for me.

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DrDeth wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.

So you have two choices:

Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?

OK the second one is silly. No-one is suggesting that outside Dark Dungeons.

The first one takes some management and doesn't break continuity unless you let it.

Neither is worse than immortal heroes.

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Wow the level of player entitlement on these boards sometimes is unbelievable.

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DrDeth wrote:

For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.

Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”

Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."

The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?

Another point is that the game isn't fun if there is no risk. None of my players like the raise dead merry-go-round it's just part of the game.

My players have just refused to have their 18th level characters raised. These players played their characters from 1st level but are refusing to have True Resurrection cast even though they know someone who can cast it. Why? Because they think that it is cheap. They would rather bring in new characters for 2 levels because they feel that the integrity of the game suffers from deus-ex-clerica.

Silver Crusade

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DrDeth wrote:

For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.

Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”

Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."

The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?

Only assuming your players are cheesy enough to do something like creating the same character over and over.

The only times I have seen that is Knights of the Dinner Table and the second Gamers movie they were supposed to be critical satire of this type of behaviour.

Silver Crusade

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Rikkan wrote:
I'm not sure, IIRC the shadow demon is incorporeal and can cast Magic Jar. I believe it bypasses the receptacle completely I'm not sure if that unwritten rule is a feature of it being incorporeal or specific to the creature.

Spell like abilities do not require components.

Silver Crusade

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Ross Byers wrote:

It's not handwaving: raise dead is hard. And, as part of the world, you're right than canny murderers will do things like steal jawbones to prevent speak with dead from turning up a witness. And clergy can, and will, use it as leverage to affect the behavior of the ruling elite.

Is it too easy? I don't think so, but if you do, you can just add a zero to the cost (putting it out of reach of most NPCs), or ban the spells entirely.

The problem with making it more expensive or banning them is that the system is built with the assumption that raise dead is available. It gets to crazy levels of dangerous if these spells are not available.

The only way to remove them is to rewrite the system. I've tried making these spells more difficult to obtain, it doesn't work.

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ryric wrote:

Yeah, I actually don't see the problems others have with raise type magic.

-It generally requires 9th+ level casters, so we're already in fairly crazy land for what can be done magically.

A facility which (under the rules) is available in any town with more than a couple of thousand inhabitants isn't exactly rare or unusual. It's pretty much as common as having a cinema is in our world.

Quote:
-The individual has to want to come back, which many won't.

I get that some people are ready for death but most people aren't and want to do more. Otherwise how do you explain the popularity of Sun Orchard Elixir in Golarion?

Quote:
-It's crazy expensive unless you have a kingdom or adventurer level budget. Bob the farmer might want to bring his wife back, but his 5 sp of on-hand cash doesn't help him get the required diamond, even if his church is willing to cast the actual spell for free.

I get that Joe Bloggs the farmer isn't going to get raised, that's obvious. But "kingdom level wealth" isn't necessary to get 5,000 GP's worth of wealth. A galley full of wheat works out at being 3,000gps for the cargo alone, the same galley full of iron is a whopping 30,000gps.

Or put it this way. A luxurious suite at an inn is 32gps a day. if it were occupied for only half a year that's enough money to pay for a raise dead. Just for one suite. Even an average quality inn with say 12 decent rooms can clear over 7,000gps a year quite easily.

So successful business owners can afford this kind of expense easily. That doesn't even touch nobility.

Quote:
-Let's say the king is assassinated. Break out the treasury and have him raised, right? What if his heir doesn't want that? The kid's the new king, maybe he think dad should enjoy his heavenly reward and let junior do the ruling.

Sure that's a possibility. But equally possible is that the cunning king has already pre paid for a raise dead. Or maybe the heir doesn't want to rule just yet? Or plain loves his father? All those are equally likely.

Quote:
So for adventurers, death is a minor inconvenience. This is a good thing as it prevent a player from having to sit out or make a new character who may be less invested in the ongoing plotline. Even Conan in the 80s movie was returned from the dead, and that's a fairly low-magic setting.

And rare. In the movie it was a plot point, a major focus of a substantial part of the story.

Raising the dead in Pathfinder on the other hand is a simple case of visiting a decent sized town. Meh.

Worse it cheapens death. Death should not be a minor annoyance. In Pathfinder it is.

Quote:
For NPCs, there are all sorts of ways to justify why they might not be raised. It's up to the GM to decide if they need to come back.

Sure but verisimilitude must be maintained. If a merchant can do it why not (say) a Baron with significant resources and many friends?

As a GM I can make up whatever rules I like but they have to be consistent with the setting I place them in.

This is like Final Fantasy VII. Aeris dies (I'd say spoiler but seriously the spoiler statute of limitations has expired on this one by now.) So why don't you just use phoenix down?

Because reasons, that's why.

If you make Resurrection this easy to obtain then it is part of the metaphysics of the world. In that case anything you do to try to hand wave that is irrelevant. That is simply how the world works.

I can make up excuses as to why not but at the end of the day that's not addressing the issue. It's the world building equivalent of healing a decapitation with a band aid.

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Absolutely.

One of my major problems with the system is that death is easily reversed and doesn't mean anything.

There is a PFS scenario where a major character gets killed and stays dead. Why? Under the rules any settlement of reasonable size (including the one where he got killed) will have someone who can cast raise dead. So it's ridiculous that he wouldn't be able to just pop back to life. Anyone playing that scenario didn't think "Oh my god they killed him off!" they thought "Erm... can't we just fetch a cleric?"

I would much rather have a system whereby any form of resurrection is at least an 8th or (preferably) 9th level spell. To compensate for that there should be spells available that prevent you from dying for x number of rounds. That would be a better system for me.

Silver Crusade

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
LazarX wrote:
1. Don't make the assumption that your "experience" is typical.

The same could be said for your stance.

35 years of gaming (on both sides of the gm screen) and discussions with other players from all walks of life (over that 35 years) says my experiences are the norm

My 30 years of gaming (on both sides of the GM screen) and discussions with other players from all walks of life (over that 30 years) says that your experiences are not the norm.

Silver Crusade

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O.o

That's... harsh.

Not cool at all. If you die by your own action then that's fine but death by GM fiat? Not good.

I've also run this bit of Age of Worms, it's made clear that the whole point is for some fun roleplaying and the player should not be punished for saying yes to this.

Protest to your GM. (S)He is being unreasonable.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Belkzen: Uh...orcs. no real-world equivalent.

Head into any British city centre after 11pm on a Saturday night. You'll see quite a few Orcs at that point, trust me...

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...My wife is running.

(seriously she's like the grim reaper of character sheets...)

Silver Crusade

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+1 For Game of Taldan Thrones...

Personally if we are talking Mythic then epic sea journey around the world akin to Jason and the Argonauts. A race around the world to prevent Rovagug from awakening!

(or something. Just so long as there is an epic journey of awesome I'm good.)

Silver Crusade

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Orthos wrote:
Unless I'm confusing you with someone else FoC, in which case apologies =) It's hard to keep track of all the different people with a beef against this particular campaign, since as I said, it was a pretty controversial event.

No need to apologise Orthos it's all good :).

That said this isn't actually my problem with it. My favourite AP is Legacy of Fire which has significant similarities and also has plane hopping. I'm an old 2nd ed. Planescape fan so plane hopping is fine by me :).

My objections are actually as follows:

Spoiler:
Firstly you are forced to work for Baba Yaga through magical enforcement. That's not great. Most players want to do things through their own choice, magically forcing them to do a campaign is a recipe for player resentment.

Secondly, you have to stop the big bad by releasing an even bigger bad. Yes Baba Yaga has some moral ambiguity in the legends about her but on Golarion she is directly responsible for Irrissen a land of persecution, evil and fear. In this setting she is a pure villain, in the same way Nex and Tar Baphon are and releasing her only perpetuates the suffering.

Third, plane hopping is great but only when you get to immerse yourself in the culture of the setting. Book 4 is excellent, it does that, but 3 and 5 are merely dungeons in interesting places. Setting book 3 in Iobaria is pointless when you are not going to actually use the setting. It's kind of like setting a scenario on the Enterprise D but then spending the entire time in the holodeck doing a Dixon Hill program. Iobaria is mere window dressing, frankly the whole scenario could be set in Irrissen without changing virtually anything.

Book 5 is slightly different but it's still just a dungeon in an interesting setting. How much cooler would it have been for the players to infiltrate Stalingrad in 1942 disguised as Red Army soldiers? Or steal the item during the October Revolution in 1917? Or the Eagles Nest in Berchtesgaden in 1944? Or the Kremlin during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962? You could have gone to town here, Thule Society, Nazis, Indiana Jones expys, the works. Instead they play it safe by tucking it away in Siberia. Missed opportunity in my opinion. My problem is not that they used an Earth setting but rather that they didn't do enough with that opportunity.

My final issue is that there's not much heroic in taking three books to collect a bunch of feathers and rocks. It's a glorified series of fetch quests, go to x, pick up y, rinse and repeat. For three books. To me that's just padding.

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Guys. Seriously let's stop the negativity before this gets unpleasant.

I'm sure the Paizo staffers have better things to do with their time than patrol the messageboards to keep order. It's a thankless task I'm sure.

I'm sure that they have also taken note of the OP's concerns and the responses to it.

Can we all just move on? Or is that too much to ask?

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I'm pretty sure Mike Brock is not going to come abseiling in through the windows with the PFS swat team for not reading the flavour text. :)

Silver Crusade

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To be honest I have to think back quite a while to remember the last time I was in a game where a character died.

Thinking hard I reckon it must be at least 19 maybe even 20 hours ago...

All joking aside wand of cure light wounds have an important role in Pathfinder as they remove the necessity for a dedicated healer.

Why is this important? Because it means that people are not pressured into playing a role that they don't want to play. Playing a healer therefore becomes a choice rather than the punishment for being the last person to create a character.

Silver Crusade

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Curse of the Crimson Throne or Reign of Winter?

That's the equivalent of saying which boxer would win in a heavyweight contest: Joe Frazier or Woody Allen.

CotCT is supremely brilliant from start to finish. RoW... well it isn't..

Just my opinion but basically you are comparing one of the best with one of the worst.

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