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Difficult. You dont want to exploit his weaknesess (will save/sunder) so you are only left with strengths.

If someone builds a potent build I would most times let them do well. A few times? Dominate persom. Kill n ally in a single round. Or throw exactly the same at him.

If this isnt an optiom because it wont be fun, then challenging them ks not what you/Your group is after. If they are making up his weaknesses by good tactics then I would say the are at a sweet spot.

Perhaps use smart enemies that have 1 Level in acebolt/other touch AC ranged options who sniper. Theyd og for the most inmediate threat.

Flyer that uses grab and tosses him somewhere?

It is a really interesting feat, awesome combinations done!
If MoMS had mamy attacks it would be Worth combining Panther, moongoose and Snake style. By Level 8 picking a Third style up.

Seems for most CE seems to be ok as an isolated choice feat (I agree) but is generally despised as a prerequisite for martials (and that int requirement..we dont all play 30 point buys).

However what truly still has me in wonder is WHY? Many threads like this before and the designer's approach is to put more CE and Int requirements in the soup. Why?

I want to hit 100% with my trip so I'll trade hit for AC and dump my dex so I can have 13 int. Thanks. Hey want that Lunging Spell Touch? Better have Heavy Armour proficiency and 13 strength. I think that if you find this silly you ought to find the CE/Int issue silly too.

And no, Improved Bullrush needing Power Attack is not an excuse for CE requirement because both hurt Your to-hit. They are just both poor design choices. And PWA is something someone with a lot of STR (bullrushers will have str) actually want.

Combat Expertise, considered a feat tax which forces martials to up intelligence to 13. Makes you worse at doing many of the feat Chains that it opens (combat maneuvres). Pure feat tax without any reason.

Melee tactics toolbox comes out and I quote:
" Combat Expertise is a useful feat for combatants who qualify for it, either with sufficient Intelligence scores or equivalent class abilities such as brawler’s cunningACG and swashbuckler finesseACG."

I am baffled at this sentence. So they put a book out for martials and they slap CE and 13 int requirements on many feats, then tell you it is a good feat (in fighting smarter section).

Is this feat used by anyone as anything but a feat tax? There have been many posts about this feat so I am baffled Paizo decide to come with it as a banner of good tactics.

Perhaps it is an effort to salvage it? What are the reasons this feat is being forced as prerequisite when it looked like they had unđerstood and abandoned it previously?

Sell it to the highest bidder!

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When comparing to other martials, the Barbarian would pick up the nearest enemy and proceed to murder each of them with their teammate. Those rage powers are CLASSY.

Velxir wrote:
What kind of stuff would Profession Sailor get you? I want to play a heavy armored warpriest that beats people down with an anchor for my pirate campaign I am in

Marlin Spikes. Marlin Frikkin Deadly Spikes.

Hey Bodhizen. First, thanks for the guide and work!

I wanted to ask if you had thought more on the Heretic's Judgement:

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

And how it works -exactly-. It doesnt sound very exact.

I am mostly interested in this one because it could be the basis with a very strong Vital Strike build with the right Domain (Rage/Ferocity) and feats (Moonlight Stalker, Furious Focus Power Attack).

Does it work like Hide in Plain Sight?

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Vod Canockers wrote:
My bard does 5 points of damage every time a party member hits.

Whenever you cast haste that extra attack is your damage - dont ever let them forget that! They are wet towels without us, just average adventurers with airs of grandeur. We make them shine and not die (so often).

We give them attacks, hit, damage, rerolls, funny jokes /perform and make enemies feel insufficient, disorderly and lacking.

They are but our pawns!

What? No why would I do your laundry, wizard. Oh yes right 20 inititive and save or die. Of course your robes will be ready for tomorrow Sir.

Magda, and for the rest of Reach bardbarians out there:

Line in the Sand. If you can somehow get this spell, and get your team to move back with you leaving the affected area just before you, you could reliably use your Charisma for number of AoO, allowing for a focus on STR/CHA vs Dex.


Cast Line in the Sand. Move action into your song. 5 foot step back.
P for Player, o for no effect, - for Line in the Sand effect.


5ft/move back


I would consider this in hallways for anyone that uses a reach weapon.

As for other reach builds, a Whip with Slashing Grace build should do a lot of damage from very far away.

Thanks for the answer. In the case of Fortune, it lasts 4 rounds on user which is beneficial.

Thank you to the OP for making me aware of this item by the way!

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Self Buffs make sense if you have time for it.

There is something I notice at least with people I play. They charge in to action, they need to get there, they must charge!
If you ready stay in your place and buff, let the enemy cut distance, then you can full attack with your buffs on while your enemy could only single attack you. Works if you are deadly enough with a full attack or if the distance is pretty large.

Also, readied actions.

I'm wondering how this rod would work on Fortune/Misfortune. At level 8 you get to benefit from it for 4 rounds?

Nice! And yeah, the Arcane Duelist is a fantastic bard, my favourite melee one.
It seems like most people are on the same page when playing a bard, everyone's giving out the song. I say the tyburn jig to those that don't.

Please state how many rounds of buffing you're using. The OP mentioned anything after 3 rounds is not useful, however I think we should all give ourselves just 1 round of buffing for the Song and a buff, then a full round action.

While ranged has the advantage of not needing to reposition (most of the times) we can ignore this for the sake of steady, comparable, numbers.

Similary, remember to check in detail what the build includes. Some use a +3 weapon some just a +1 etc.

Joe M: How do you calculate the DPR vs the foe? A simulation, a subtraction from the damage based on hit chance?

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Level 9

Azata Blooded Aasimar

5 feats (1,3,5,7,9):

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Many Shot
Clustered Shot
Deadly Aim
Feat Level 11 or instead of Deadly Aim: Divine Protection (Cha to saves)

Favoured Class Bonus:
Bard, Aasimar (+1/2 total level to one song..Inspire Courage making us count as level 13, for a +3)

15 point buy: :

Str 10
Dex 15 +1 (4th) + 2 (race)= 18
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 9
Cha 15 +1 (8th) + 2 (race)= 18

Conductive Bow +1
No extra items, no headbands or anything

The action: We assume 1 round of buffing because we have a team that needs those juicy songs. We use a Standard Action to buff with Haste a Move to start a song. Next round full attack.

To hit::

Bab: +6/+1
Dex: +4
Rapid Shot: -2
Song: +3
Weapon: +1
Haste: +1


Deadly aim


Pbs: +1 (within 30 feet)
Weapon: +1
Song: +3
Conductive: 1d8 + Cha (Once a round, non errata version, errata version is better)

Single Attack
1d8 + 5 + (once a round: 1d8 + 4)
1d8 + 9 (deadly aim)

All hit:
(1d8 + 5 x 4) + (1d8+4) = 5d8+24
DPR 29 - 64, AVG 46,5

All hit Deadly Aim:
(1d8 + 9 x 4) + (1d8+4) = 5d8 + 40
DPR 48 - 80, AVG 64

Note: Not using any + stats items, but counts Haste+Song (1 round of buffing)
Advancement to be put into Charisma and Dexterity, Weapon Focus and anything that gives you to hit.

Sound Striker using conductive ranged weapon. Will throw a build later on. I imagine you do not consider multiclassing/dipping within the rules, for a 1-2 level dip? It wouldn't be a bard challenge anymore.

Interesting to read that about APs. I personally found more daunting having to come up with a campaign setting, a score of NPCs (mildy interesting at least), enemy NPCs, an interesting story line, stat up NPC humaoids that took class levels, etc, rather than have all of this printed and omit/included what you (don't)like. Perhaps because the comparison I did wasn't with short modules and one off sessions, in which case, yeah I agree with you.

On the checking the AP behind the GM. Better just ask the GM how many there were. He can show you the page. If you just read what's stated, why bother playing at that table.

The printed APs as is are not very difficult for 4 optimised characters. However with 3 and not very experienced, some parts will be mince grinders.

LazarX wrote:


You said that your GM had only been GMing for two months. That's a bit wet behind the ears for taking on an AP, and Runelords is not a gentle AP. With such a novice GM, he simply may not have the learned skill for a party that doesn't meet the AP's minimum expectations.

I would suggest that the GM wet his chops with smaller things. I would highly recommend the following for practise.

Silverhex Chronicles

and The Disapeared.

These are all PFS chronicles, the first is a free download and the rest are 3 bucks each. You do not have to be members of the campaign to homeplay this.

AP's are fantastic to guide new GMs into GM'ing.

To quote the relevant rules, in Combat, Reposition maneuver states:

"You cannot use this maneuver to move a foe into a space that is intrinsically dangerous, such as a pit or wall of fire."

As to why, I guess it's to limit casting True Strike then throwing the bad guy into said lava, making the encounter a, well, non encounter.
It's silly. If the GM puts the bad fella in a bridge and fire to each side, it's obvious he's prepared energy resistances and levitate at least.

Since you're playing S&S I imagine it's a house game. I strongly suggest not using that rule.

Note: Bullrush does not mention anything about dangerous squares.

This AP is ideal for a brawler with witty bad intentions.

Many humanoid enemies to grapple. Repositioning in dangerous squares isnt allowed I think, neither with bull rushes, but a swift houserule changes that. Even the AP itself skips over it, a mayor NPC bullrushing people off the ship in the first book.

I'd suggest having a look at Grappling Style in the style feats and really really hammering down grapple rules because they are finicky.

The Resetter

The GM is writing the plot as it goes and in comparison the Illiad is a light after tea reading. It is so large he keeps losing the story within the sea of plotlines. Assures you he'll fill you in the world's details but that went to hide with wherever this-time-this-canpaign-reset-is-for-real's plot went to in vacation.
Youre always level 3-7 and a few sessions later youre low level again. Hey it lets you try out character builds.

Suggestion: Get the group an AP until that gm's gotten some order/energy.

Good times in nightclubs which we don't talk about?

A fantastic niche in fantasy, really portrays the intelligent resourcefulness that seeks to 1. Make things go BOOM or 2. See the applications of alchemical tinkering.
Extremely flexible in how you build it too.
It delivers the "I'm smart enough to solve any and every problem you throw at me" flawlessly. One of the best designed classes in Pathfinder.

Found something! Blood Armour spell makes you stronger the more hits you receive.

Blood Armor

School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, bloodrager 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2, witch 2

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level


Your blood becomes as hard as iron upon contact with air. Each time you take at least 5 points of piercing or slashing damage, your armor gains a +1 enhancement bonus to your AC. An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. This enhancement bonus stacks with itself to a maximum enhancement bonus of +5. This spell has no effect while underwater or in environments that lack air.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide

rungok wrote:

I was wanting to make a character that is pretty decent on average, but really shines the more beat down and overwhelmed he is. I guess the anime/manga hero who has that indominable spirit to rise up again and again, hit harder, and not give up no matter how badly things are stacked against him. Usually his spirit and determination is an inspiration to his allies.

Is there any way to build a character that can fulfill those 'themes'?

Problem in Pathfinder is that in 3 rounds you're dead or they are dead. Anime character style stuff goes on for 26 chapters and counting. So not many options are geared towards that.

Death or glory perhaps, though mechanically different, could fit in with that.

Relevant rules:

"Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus."

Aemesh wrote:


So now your reach is X, here's the real giggle; Someone charges you while you have, let's say, dex 18, reach weapon, lunge and longarm(spell), your reach range is 20ft, without moving around the environment. By the time said (medium sized critter with no reach of its own) gets to you, he's entered and departed several threatedned squares : from 20 to 15', from 15' to 10', from 10'...

I dont think that's how it works, you only get 1 AoO from movement. You only provoke once for a particular action, in this case, the opponent moving.

Presentation alone is grounds for an applause. Hope it gets added to the stick "guide to classes/builds".

Just make sure it comes with the "usable once a round" clause and "as a standard action". Or just "you get the benefits of Vital Strike". About 5000 would be a good price, considering it isn't a superior feat as pointed above.

Otherwise, as worded above, you are doing probably 1/3-1/2 extra damage on a martial character from just a +1 on a weapon on a full attack. You, do you think you're a wizard? No, then put that down and be sensible, here, fail this will save.

In a more exotic way Calistria fits slightly, with the taking revenge part. Justice can be a sort of revenge.

As posted above Sarenrae is quite feasable..though the old testament god didn't have time for those sissy "second chances".

Also it's tough to be a god so don't expect perfection.

That feat does not exist. Burn it. Ignore it. What were you talking about again?

Edit 1: VITAL STRIKE TYRANOSAURUS you better have some Vital Strike build or threads out or I'll be very disappointed, the kinda where King Kong is disappointed with Godzilla, I'm checking right now.

Edit 2: King Kong is pleased. Very pleased. #VitalStalker tal#8 6

Edit 3: About Combat Expertise, we substitute a different feat for a prerequisite. Sometimes it's dodge, sometimes power attack, and if not, "+1 bab" or some such. Uninteresting Feat Taxes are just archaic design.

Lunge is more valuable if you already have Reach. Adding another 5 ft really does a lot for crippling enemy action economy.

Example. With 10 ft Reach you hit. They 5ft step and full attack you.
With 10ft Reach and Lunge, you hit from 15ft. They need to move 10ft, cant full attack you.

Also, remember you have your own 5ft step, backwards, to increase this further.

Edit: As already described above :)

graystone wrote:
OMG... Wall of text... Eyes bleeding... Have mercy... Paragraphs... Please think about the paragraphs...

Hurk, that had me laughing loudly for a while

c873788 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
c873788 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
so any more news on this front.
Yes please. A gentle reminder Paizo, can you please keep us updated even if you just jump in to say "we are still working on it". That is always better than a wall of silence.
It's still as before; it's past the design team and is continuing onward. Since my team is through, any other update from me would be functionally identical, more or less.
Thanks for your comments Mark.

Thanks for the reply. We're all looking forward to any news and fixes.

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Still not seeing those op builds some say exist. I am curious. As ravingdork or any single level wizard ever proved, it aint about broken options.

Guy above with the parapahrasing and the /dropmic, +10 broken build points, hilarious :)

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Fergie wrote:
Errant Mercenary wrote:

Edit: /EndRant

Just out of curiosity, do you think posts like yours help the designers make a better game and encourage them to interact with the community, or do you think they have the opposite effect?

Thats a fair point and I was more abrasive than I should have.

I buy the products and get disappointed when I see parts that arent their usual fantastic standard. It looks like it is more an issue with editting than designing perhaps.

However my statement, if id would reword it more maturily would retain its message. More important things to rule-fiddle than a year old rule that may or may not need tweaking but was at least functional. The examples of which litter the forums.

I get upset when i open the book i paid for and I have to open the browser instead because the part Im interested in is unusable. At this, I stumble at what to expect.

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To the above about type of players, winning, flavour etc.

Its about PROFESSIONALISM. The one where you release a book that costs a lot of money for which youve had a "playtest" with sloppy written rules (archetypes), when they were told in the threads setup for that what the problems were.
Then they ignore the honestly embarassing work quality (regarding some edit/writing of rules, other parts are splendid) and refuse to answer their blunders.

Then spend time changing a rule. Then, instead of spending resources into fixing their badly written expensive rules (archetypes out there that dont even work) they fumble with what in theory they already spent time THINKING about and revert.

NO PAIZO, NO. Priorities.

Edit: /EndRant

Those are good questions. The level scaling is definately intriguing.

Any Scientology in the book too?

I thought it wouldnt be the case, but examining this:

"Requirements: All ki powers have a minimum monk level requirement to select them. A monk who does not meet this requirement cannot select that ki power."

Makes it sound like all you need is to be high enough level to take previous powers, so you may substitute your higher level abilities for lower qinggong ones.

Hey all, I'm not well versed with witches.

Wondering if by using Hex vulnerability and Fortune straight after together with Cackle, you are able to use Fortune as many as Caster Level (hex vulnerability) times.

Hex vulnerability



How would Soothsayer interact? Cast Fortune with soothsayer at the beginning of the day. Battle starts some hours later. Example:

Round 1
You cast Hex Vulnerability on yourself. Say CL = 11.
Round 2
You decide to use Fortune on a single attack roll (Triggers Fortune cd/Soothsayer effect), you reroll the attack, then Cackle as a move.
Round 3
Attack (reroll from Fortune), Cackle.
Rounds 2-11 Fortune/Cackle is mantained due to Hex Vulnerability (11 rounds)
Round 12
Hex vulnerability wears off, you may not benefit from Fortune again.

Hex vulnerability is often used to heal oneself with Healing Hex more times in the day.

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On the core class ban, he does not want to face any Paladins. Understandable as an evil party.
If you had access to Forced Repentance that would be a very funny way of bring a character to his knees.

On tactics, as mentioned above mounts are very powerful. Specially for your 2nd level character, he's going to need all the help he can get.
I suggest Pit spells and/or Obscuring Mist. The latter will give you extra time to summon monsters if they cant see you.

A mounted cavalier to share a teamwork feat with all your summons. Or a bard Aasimar (=+2 on song with the Aasimar bard favoured bonus).

Summoner is probably the best bet there for one of your fiths.

For your other roguish character, take Ninja and take one level of Waves Oracle. That gives you vision through fog. Cast Obscuring Mist. Use a reach weapon if possible. You have concealment, total, from them at 10ft+ and you can see them no problem. Sneak Attack guaranteed. Battlefield control. Add Skulking Slayer for d8s and Steal maneuvre instead of sneak (Holy Symbol? Mine. Spell book? Mine too. Through the mist.)
This guy can also cast bless to benefit all your monster.

r1: Ninja Obscuring Mist
Summoner summon

r2: Ninja Bless or Position+attack if others moved
summoner keep on summoning
cavalier position/tactician/get ready to charge lance anyone outside of Obscuring Mist when most of the enemy party is inside already. Probably their caster stays outside. This guy ready actions to interrupt casting.

r3: Summons and Ninja make mince meat of whatever is in the cloud. If they dont come in, throw another Obscuring Mist at them directly. No targetted spells are working on you since no line of vision.

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Humphrey Boggard wrote:

For an upcoming one shot (Ruby Phoenix Tournament) we've decided to put together an all monk party. The character I have in mind is a chubby human monk with a lisp and a tendency to stutter, which is why our party is registered in the tournament as the "Five Fifths of Fa-fa-fa-fury".

I'm leaning toward a sensei build but I'm not seeing what I should do with him in combat aside from give my fellows advice. Also, if it helps one of the other players is playing a Zen Archer monk so I'd prefer to stay melee-oriented.

Many good suggestions already given. However having a Sensei in a monk party is absolutely GOLDEN. You're all looking to +hit as monks, so that's the most valuable resource.

Sohei Monk wielding a Nagitana/longspear or similar, staying out of reach and pumping damage. Or high crit weapon? Anything really, they do damage with reliable saves and decent skills.

MoMS. Dragon Style combined with a few others can be very potent (if you can multiclass into Sacred Fist or Brawler, Dragon+Pummeling is good). Gives you a lot of flexibility depending on what you want to build. Damage Dragon Style, or AoO master with Panther+Snake+Crane/Dragon. This guy fits in Anvil too.

Weapon Adept. This one can pump some damage too, with weapon spec and Perfect Strike. Less mano a mano, more cleavy slashy.

If getting to level 11 or starting there, a Four Winds monk is fun. Grab Vital Strike, Dragon Style, Marid/similar and twice a day punch someone to oblivion in a single turn with that stop time ability.

Grappler Tetori. These are vicious. Pick two people never let them go, oh baby never gonna let you down, never go away and...ahem

Maneuvre Master. As above but with trips, disarms.
Flowing Monk. If you will fight a lot of people at once this is great.

Far Strike Monk. Works well enough, has versatility. Throw Chakrams at them with Flurry or move and shoot to kite.

Zen Archer. One of the best archers in the game. Look at the "One" guide for this archetype.

Sensei/Ky Mystic. As written above, a facilitator. Please, pick Qinngong with this too. You may also become a Blaster then (Scorching Ray) if in a pinch.

Slap Qinngong whenever you can, be it for Barkskin, True Strike (trip/grapple) or any other great improvement.

Gisher wrote:

Evil Eye doesn't work with conductive weapons, because it isn't a touch attack or ranged touch attack. And Enforcer requires non lethal damage, so you either take a -4 penalty to hit or you need a merciful spear.

And anytime you are using Enforcer, you should follow up with an attack from a Cruel weapon to add the sickened condition.

Ah good catch on the Evil Eye. However, Frost Bite does non-lethal damage, triggering Enforcer. Unless your DM rules it is exclusively weapon damage that needs to be the non lethal, which I see no reason for.

Edit: Additionally Conductive has the once per round clause, making the AoOs a bit weaker. Back to the drawing board!

You could also have fun as a spear debuffer - ala bad touch but with a stick.

Hexcrafter Magus One Hit debuffer

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Spear Dancer, Rime Spell, Enforcer
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy, Hex (Evil Eye/any debuff), Accursed Strike, Hex (Cackle)
Weapon enchantment: Conductive
Extra gravy/build variations: -PWAttack, Furious Focus- -WF, Weapon of the chosen (normal, improved, greater).

Round 1
Get into a medium range position, between your main line and your back line. Spell Strike Frost Bite (Rime), Swift Arcane Accuary. Reach, with Lunge is 15ft. Free action Enforcer. Free action Spear Dancer dazzle. Conductive weapon Evil Eye (-hit, level 8)
Result: Fatigued, Entangled, Shaken, Dazzled, Evil Eye = -9

Round 2
Move: Either move positions if threaned, or use Cackle on whoever.
Spell Strike Bestow Curse, because they still dont think they have enough penalties. Rest as above.
Result: - 15 hit.

Meanwhile, being out of reach means you're either safe or enemies are provoking AoO's from you (which leads to the results of round 1, -9 for everyone you touch).

You rely on AoO and on that one hit - investing into Weapon of the Chosen is costly but fun. Also, mix in Warpriest for Gentle Repose you can get them Staggered a few times a day with Conductive.

Weapons: This works better with a whip, more feat costly. It's just another way of fighting and providing good battle control. Note that Evil Eye and Bestow curse and other effects can also affect saving throws, etc. -6 int damage to a caster means they lose A LOT of high level spell casting.

Edit: Frigid Touch is also a good Spell Strike debuff.

For the Dancing section, the Artifice Domain of the cleric has the follwoing:

Dancing Weapons (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the dancing special weapon quality for 4 rounds. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.

Hey nice guide! A good use I see is to find ways to pump up that Courageous enchantment on the weapon.

Here's another one:


Ki Weapon (Su)

At 4th level, as a swift action, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant any weapon he wields (including his unarmed strike) a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, increasing by +1 per four levels after 4th to a maximum bonus of +5 at 20th level, until the end of his next turn.

This ability replaces slow fall and abundant step.

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I wonder if they keep releasing vague rulings to keep us interested in the message boards. What would be of our evenings without these conundrums. Damn marketing team knows what it's doing.

Everything clear and minor opinion differences. Thanks for the monk thread discussion though, it had been a while and was already missing them, bet Rynjin had been craving for one too :)
(will add your house rule - the half I liked - into my table!)

Rynjin wrote:

You mean 19-20? Good point...I keep seeing those feats for unarmed strike that do wonderful fun things...on a critical strike. I skip those.

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