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Undone wrote:
Errant Mercenary wrote:

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!

Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.
The same can be said about aberrant blood ragers.

Combined, even more. I have been witness. It is not pretty.

Thanks for the answers! Pretty much what I thought too.

Alright, next question:

How does Janni Rush interact with Pummeling Style?

Janni Rush:

When you leap to the attack, your blows are like bolts from on high.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Janni Style, Janni Tempest, Acrobatics 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 8 ranks.

Benefit: While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike’s damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.

You may have 2 styles active with Master of Many Styles.
So is it:
1. Charge, get the Pummeling charge pounce roll the unarmed damage twice (without modifiers)?
2. Only roll the first attack roll twice.

I am very inclined to number 1 because it does not depend on an attack roll. Janni Style mentions an unarmed strike hit, which is what Pummeling Strike is, one hit containing many rolls.
The possible caveat here could be the "and make an unarmed strike.." which could mean just the first hit.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!
Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.

Dex to Damage is just fine. It's much better when it's counted as "precise damage". So things without clear weaknesses dont take this damage. It's been suggested in this thread before.
More realistic and doesnt break anything.

The only "issue" with Dex to damage might be with Monks and light/no armour classes. Monks become a realistic choice and a menace in the battlefield which will be difficult to bring down. Just like any other character.

If you are concerned that dex to damage is a problem, you should very very concerned about the swashbuckler who adds Dex AND level to damage. If swashbucklers are not trumping and walking over STR characters (fighters, barbs, rangers, slayers) then there really is not a problem.

Fair enough, I understand the logic in that. Always been a bit lenient with kensai choices at the table I guess.

The wording on Pummeling Strike has created quite a lot of debating, I wonder if this got given a proper look in the play test.

(For the record, the build wouldve been a MoMs Monk1/Kensai4/BrawlerX or sacred first, with Janni and Pummeling Style. Ran some numbers and it was ok, situational and flashy mostly.)

Undone wrote:

As a general rule here's how feats/spells/exct apply to pummeling style.

If the rule in question references a roll pummeling style is multiple.
If the rule in question references an attack (Not an attack roll) or unarmed strike pummeling style is one single strike.

For the perfect strike question let's look.

At 4th level, when a kensai hits with his chosen weapon

Each part of the flurry hits so it looks like number 1.

he can spend 1 point from his arcane pool in order to maximize his weapon damage. Don’t roll for damage—the weapon deals maximum damage. This affects only the weapon’s base damage dice, not additional damage from sneak attack, magical weapon properties, spellstrike, or critical hits. If the kensai confirms a critical hit, he can instead spend 2 points from his arcane pool to increase his weapon’s critical multiplier by 1.
This talks about damage without referencing for the attack so it falls in 1.

I disagree with this interpretation. I think the difference lies in attack roll and a hit.

With Sneak Attack, and "On Hit riders" Sneak Attack just applies once. The Kensai's ability references hit, nothing about attack rolls.

Disclaimer: I have nothing invested into this working, so while I would like more things working that differ from the "I 5ft step and full attack" drudgery, I am not advocating for it.

So by this interpretation, a kensai cannot chose a Simple Weapon as his weapon focus?

On topic, to echo what's been said, True Strike's "Your next single attack roll" does mean it only includes a single attack roll. If you can make 3 attack rolls with Pummeling Strike, it affects only the first. Many attack rolls, one hit.

How would Pummeling Strike interact with the Kensai's Perfect Strike?

Perfect Strike (Ex):

At 4th level, when a kensai hits with his chosen weapon, he can spend 1 point from his arcane pool in order to maximize his weapon damage. Don’t roll for damage—the weapon deals maximum damage. This affects only the weapon’s base damage dice, not additional damage from sneak attack, magical weapon properties, spellstrike, or critical hits. If the kensai confirms a critical hit, he can instead spend 2 points from his arcane pool to increase his weapon’s critical multiplier by 1.

This ability replaces spell recall.

Fire As She Bears

Edit: Might not fall under all categories afterall.

There is Ultimate Equipment, all the splat books, and everything added later that was done before ACG. I think it would be a little uptight to not let some of those items work with class features these hybrids posess (i.e. scaling monk unarmed damage on sacred fists) due to the item being an old entry.
It would be very unimaginative to say the least.

vikingson wrote:

Or try to get a hold on one of these

A Sea of Words, which adds correct interpretations to the entries and explains most shipboard proceedings rather well to the "landlubberly".

The above entry is nice, but there are some inconsistencies and errors... not that most people will notice^^

I wanted to thank you for the Sea of Words recommendation. Mostly for general knowledge and english sea vocabulary!

Stand Still could be an awesome feat for this.
Perhaps Long Arm spell too if you get the chance.

Roaring in anticipation. Thanks!

Interesting thread. I made a spear hurler from a Sohei (you can make anything out of a Sohei..). Many attacks, good move, can still wear armour if you cant invest in Wisdom, very good saves, good initiative, weapon training and flurry with whichever weapon you chose.
After level 6 dipping or continuing in other classes works well, such as Barbarian.

Off topic In Topic...It is strange to me, perhaps for not being from the American continent, the touchiness of certain words and allusions. The faster people are ok with terms such as "spear chucker" and do not associate it to old racial slurs, the faster the whole thing will be forgotten. Make a tabboo out of it, persecute it when it wasnt said as a racial insult, the more fire you're throwing at it and the more staying power those words will have. You're prisoners of your own words and your PR world.

I would suggest a dip into another class. Monk for Wisdom to attack.

There is also the Guided enchant substituting strength for wisdom to attack/damage apon-property---guided

Or Guided Hand, a feat revolving around religion and wisdom for Wis to attack

The problem with them derailing what is written is quite strong through the campaign.
So far I'm solving it by adding sidequests, such as raiding a Pirate Captain's fortress instead of Tidewater, and introducing some NPCs and fleshing out some of the unused Captains given later in the AP.

The Shackles is a very cut-throat place, where not only the strongest, but the smartest, prevail. Stealing ships is something that seems very doable. I will see how my players handle a couple of incidents of it, in very different manners.

Now, for the "solution". Have you got access to Divination? Scry on an object or person, such as the ship or someone from the crew you know was in the deal.

While spies and such might not be your thing, focus it this way: what you will do when you have the opportunity to take it back. Just take the ship back? Crush the fleet of those that did? Plenty space here to do it in a short, cruel way that denotes how your character has been mulling about this.

BadBird wrote:
... and you've essentially got full iterative strength-based two weapon fighting with a whole package of extra attacks...

Do Unarmed attacks and Natural Attacks really work in combination? What about in a flurry? Can you point to the clause of it please?

Brilliant thread, entertainment factor above 7 tons worth of canned herring.
Thank you for your post, OP.

I have similar problems to you actually, I want it all and end up too thing. I solve this by making 3 versions of the same character, or break it down to 2-3 very different builds.

Hexcrafter magus. Just "to help" with indecision...

Hex Magus (Su)

At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch’s hexes. The hexcrafter magus picks one hex from the witch’s hex class feature. He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level.

This feature replaces spell recall.

I blotched up quite a few things in the build write ups. No flurry for MoMs sadly.

As the AP goes on, Profession checks are more background, with a few point being important sometimes (ship combat etc). Never like at the beggining, make them SWEAT those rolls. Even if it's not that much fun failing a Prof Sail check to climb the rigging it adds a lot of value to the game later on.

When they are full fledged captains scourging the Shackles they'll remember damn well how they had troubles climbing the rigging that one time.

mplindustries wrote:


But Janni Rush is a pretty good find, though. I would say it's definitely stronger for the charge part, but Dragon Style/Ferocity is better overall, because you won't ALWAYS need to charge--some of the time you can just hit them normally.

At level 8 MoMS you get to combine Pummeling, Janni and Dragon, as a free action (Combat Style Master), leaving some space for TWF feats if wanted.

Though at my table I'd rule that if you do Jump during a charge you get to benefit from Death From Above. You'll need to tell me how high and far you can/want to jump to see if you can make it though.

prototype00 wrote:

I'm... not sure death from above applies. You have to be charging an enemy from higher ground (which isn't jumping) or from above while flying (which also isn't jumping).

If you have frequent access to airwalk, it is a cinch to activate, but otherwise, not so much.


What is the point of jumping when charging then? Obstacles, flying enemies? If it's so, fair enough. Shame, such a fun feat that -could- have made Martials a little more flavourful at doing something maybe a little cool.

Anyways, this is the literal Flying Side Kick the OP requested.
A note on the Kensai's Perfect strike. It can be ruled that since Pummeling Style is one attack (ergo only 1 application of Sneak Attack would be applied for example) then Perfect Strike Works. If it is ruled that it does not work, then pick Ninja Scout instead and then Sneak Attack DOES apply per attack available. Win win.

In fact, I've fleshed out a build. Note that depending how the Kensai Perfect Strike (Ex) ability gets ruled, it can be very different. So some builds:
Straight Monk, level 6 (human)
Master of Many Styles, Qin Gong
1 F: Death from Above BF: Pummeling Style
2 BF: Pummeling Charge
3 F: Janni Style
5 F: Combat Style Master
6 BF: Janni Rush

Strength of 18
IUS: 1d8 + 4
Charge: 100ft
#attacks: Flurry 3 + 1 ki swift action
To hit: +4/+4/+4/+1 flurry, +5 DFAbove, +4 Str: +13/+13/+13/+10
Damage if all hit: 1d8 *2(janni) + 4 (str) * N(hits) = 8d8 + 16
max: 80, min 24.

No magical equip, no external boni added.
At level 8 you can start playing with Dragon Style.

1 Kens F Death from Above Human: TWF
2 Kens
3 Kens F Janni Style ARC
4 Kens
5 MoMs F Pummeling Style BF Pummeling Charge
6 MoMs F Combat Style Master BF Janni Rush

Strength of 18
IUS: 1d8 + 4
Charge: 60ft
#attacks: 2 (TWF)
To hit: +2/+2 + 1 (wfocus kensai) + 5 DFAbove + 4 Str= +12/+12
Damage if all hit: 1d8 *2(janni) + 4 (str) * N(hits) = 4d8 + 8
Always max (precise strike): 40
With FrostBite cast, Magical Knack trait: 40 +1d6+6*2 = 52+2d6
Just to show Kensai possibilities. You can play around a lot with being a magus, with Arcanas for example.
IF your GM rules SPell Combat = Full Attack Action, Add an extra hit with max Unarmed damagex2 + spell you are casting.

As it proceeds it gets much better. Level 5 kensai yields another feat (ITWF), more spells and damage from them, more arcanas.

Alternative: At Kensai4/MoMS2 start going Warpriest for Flurry of Blows.

Totally Unfleshed..just for reference
Maximum attacks, Level 7
- Warpriest (Sacred Fist, x)
- Monk (MoMS, 2)
- Magus (Kensai, 4)
1 Kensai FEAT: ?
2 Kensai
3 Kensai FEAT: Janni Style ARCANA:
4 Kensai
5 MoMS FEAT: Death from Above BONUS FEAT: Pummeling Style
6 MoMS BONUS FEAT: Pummeling Charge
7 Sacred Fist FEAT: ?

To hit on charge: +3 Bab, +1 Wfocus, +5 DFAbove: +9
Attacks: 2 Flurry:

Janni Style! (Moms) Roll damage on a charge twice!
Kensai 4! MAX damage with chosen weapon (unarmed)
Death from Above! +5 to attack on jumping charge (which Janni Style lets you do)

Fourshadow wrote:
So does the "no bonus attacks" mean that a natural weapon character (claws) does NOT strike any of these foes TWICE? One claw attack per foe, correct?

Yes one attack per enemy strictly.

Thanks for the answers again. I imagine swift actions lie either before or after the WWAttack action too.

I hope this ship still is sailing! Could you send it to me too?

pelayosecades AT gmail DOT com

About bonus or extra attacks, found a 2010 necro'd in 2012 that says "Bonus" should be "Bonus Attacks" due to avoiding old d&d exploit rulings.

Edit: Thanks for the swift reply! They are very explicit mentioning "foes you threaten" etc that when I read something like this it makes me wonder.

I have some questions on Whirlwind Attack, as I find the wording confusing. I am GMing a group and this will come up soon.

WhirlWind Attack:

Whirlwind Attack (Combat)

You can strike out at every foe within reach.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Reach vs Threatened:
You attack each opponent WITHIN REACH.
Does this means that if you have a reach weapon you can also attack those at your 5ft squares, not only those at 10ft squares?
Case Study: Boarding Pike of Repelling from Skulls and Shackles extends to 20ft as a swift action. Does it mean said character attacks everyone within 20 ft? Just those at 20ft?

Forfeit any bonus or extra attacks:
Does this refer to boni such as Bless, True Strike, Weapon Focus, Power Attack? Or is the bonus just redundancy with extra, refering to attacks?

Any help, I cant find anything in the forums, very underused feat.

Playing a combat cleric a little different:
Divine Strategist cleric (plus to initiative, lvl 8 +int bonus to AoO and flanking)
Animal, Feather Subdomain (i.e. Ra, I like the desert theme)
Animal Companion: Wolf/hyena/anything works
Manacing Weapon
High Int High Str
Improved Innitiative
Level 8 flanking: 6 (Bab) + 2 (flank) + 2 (outflank) + 2 (menacing) + 4 (int, minumum) + 3-4 (str) = +20 before buffs to hit

Add buffs (Divine Power, Bless Ferovr, Magic Wep, greater), perhaps reach, kirin strike, monk level (flurry) if you want more attacks.

Huh a quick search doesnt yield me anything either

redeyes9411 wrote:
you should just switch to a elven archer unless your dead set on a dwarf then just roll through the tough spots

I think at this point it's just necromancy that we're looking into

Is it just me finding this item disastrously overpowered for when it arrives?

It's a lot of fun, and I'm encouraging my group to use it. However with enlarge, maybe a bloodline that extends reach or similar and some of the AoE feats, it's quite crazy.

Ill_Made_Knight wrote:

Ok so I have been working through this since I am going to be hosting a party of six. I have the Wormwood Mutiny done.

So here it is

Ill_Made_Knight's GM Guide to Skulls and Shackles for Six Players .

Did you ever get further?

I had a frontliner bard and main damage dealer of our campaign for a bit.
Arcane duelist archetype with a Nodachi
1 level Unarmed fighter
Feats: Tiger Style, Crane Style (before "revision")
Fought defensively and used power attack and crit like a truck.
He had a no point waiting attitude, ready to accept duels and prefered to go out in glory and gore than grow old and bored.

While your stats are not good for this (Cha), check this:
Phalanx figher 3
Sacred Shield 2-4
Oracle War X
Inmediate charges that reduce the damage your group takes. Dragon breaths fire? Inmediate charge (Oracle) to your group for decreased damage (Sacred Shield).

Otherwise have a look at the Combat patrol feat line. Perhaps the Overrun and improved overrun to get to enemies fast if your group is that mobile.

Works, thanks! This will be useful, started the campaign last week.

Hm I cant seem to open it. Am I being daft?

I'd like to see this too :)

Thanks for the ideas! Well clerics are versatile by nature. The ones i see do mot eapexialise much.

The HangOver cleric is also a fantastic cleric that plays alittle different.

Ps I meant Divine STRATEGIST in my previous post. Also the Feather subdomain thouhh fur is good if you have free actions.

I would like to see a Magus style cleric, but very limited to a couple spells or doing witha shield (ala skirnir). Think there is an archetype somewhere but it isnt a main bool.

I am also looking for fun clerics. This is a cleric that I have not se en played often:

Divine Tactician archetype. Lvl 8 int to hit on AoO/flanks, plus amazing initiative.
Fur (animal) domain. Gain a companion.

Relevant feats:
Outflank (teamwork, extra +2 attack bonus on flank)
Pack flanking (teamwork, adjacent counts as flanking)
Improved spell sharing (teamwork, divide spells on companion)

Posible feats:
Evolved companion (give evolution to pet, like reach)
Kirin style, Kirin strike (x2 int to dmg as a swift)
Warblessings (get minor blessings)
Legendary teamwork
Two weapon figting

Menacing weapon enchantment


This gives a first action cleric that can move into position and gain amazing flank bonuses (int +2 flank + 2 outflank + 2 menacing. Crank int up a bit and you have +10-12 easy).
He is a buffer that when he self buffs he also targets his pet, doesnt need wisdom except for minimum casting.
Round 1 buff, move. As 2 you Will get AoO so you wont be wasting much time by buffing.

Strength, Int, wisdom con, dex, charisma. Int and str especially.

Posible advancement:
Cleric twf: amazing to hit makes twf viable. De have few feats though
Cleric reach: get a reach weapon and reach evolution.
Cleric tank: bolster con, give pet tanky feats, buff and go in first, making a good frontline of 2.

Still unsure what to do here...cleric casting is good.
Monk: flury of blows, Wis to ac (if you have good wis).
Magus: spellcombat, level 3 arcanas to either add int to hit or armour. Other int stuff.
Witch: prehensile hair uses int to hit/dmg! But 1 min/level and los base dmg

Yeah I do love the concept (I go with Mobility, Spell Dance, etc to get the flavour going. Also Arcana that adds Int to hit is great in the magus build.) but with some explanation it goes. If you see this going on for the first time youd just think it too complicated.

For all the skeptics about Action Management: Combat Style Master. Your styles do not take swifts anymore!

I play something similar with Panther, Snake and combine it with Monk (MOMS2/flowing monk) and Magus(SpellDancer/kensai). Add Rime Spell to Frostbite and you do what you are saying + Fatigued + Entangled + Denied dex to AC. It works well but..can be a lot of rolls and tracking per turn.

If you add another step (swashbuckler parry) you might provoke AoOs from more dangerous foes, your friends at your table, cause man does it get micromanagement like.

Good luck though :)

With my build you can take the Panache Arcanas and get Precise Strike as a Magus.

Imbicatus wrote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Now, as a swift when you take that single shot you also add double int after you see it hits.

...after two rounds of setup and wasted swift actions.

Round one: Swift Action enter Kirin Style
Round Two: Swift Action Identify
Round three: Swift Action apply 2x INT Damage on a hit.

It's a Trap. By the time you can apply the damage, it's not needed.

Combat Style Master helps a lot. If you do go this route, you need to be dedicated however.


I made this build to shoot once during combat and buff/position with the rest of the actions. Can work with any ranged weapon, though I built it to be used with a crossbow (repeating heavy if possible). d-ideas#75

Alchemist X/Barb 2/Wizard 1
vital strike, bombs, intelligence based mostly.

Combine Spring Attack with Snake Style. Now they are both down to Standard Actions since the spring attack forces the other to move, but as he receives a blow (oberyn) he can use Snake Style to negate it.

So crank that Sense Motive. I think it fits well.

edit: and as bignorsewolf suggests, put in Combat Reflexes.

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