We probably won't do dinosaurs, so it's safe to cross them off any wishlists. Huge slots are so precious that it doesn't make sense to use them on creatures that are so easily represented by a plastic toy. And honestly, it's possible to get dinosaur toys with really great paint jobs relatively cheaply, so these creatures are, alas, never going to be a priority for the Pathfinder Battles line.
Froghemoth is an obvious one I'd really like to do. I think the elementals would sell well, but you'd need to do four of them so the packaging is a little strange. Two sets of two?
Dragon Turtle is one I'd like to do, probably paired with some other sort of aquatic dragon.
Elephants and mastodons fall into the dinosaur category for me. We could do them, and I'd do them sooner than dinosaurs, but I'm certain there are decent enough proxies out there.
I think the retriever is probably too associated with D&D, and I try to be very cautious with regards to respecting that sort of thing.
Glad people are digging this two-pack. It's a bit of an odd duck due to the circumstances surrounding its birth (one pick up from an earlier set, one a really cool but fairly obscure monster), but both of these figures look absolutely great, and I hope you really like them when you have them in hand.
Mystic Lemur wrote:
The classes themselves will not be subbed out. Elements of their implementation can and will be changed as a result of constructive playtest feedback.
Theoretically, this could include "how exciting they are," but since that's highly subjective and likely differs from gamer to gamer, it's very difficult to be specific--that's where your feedback comes in.
As the "no-portmanteau" guy, I guess I should chime in here.
The most important part is that Jason and I don't always agree on everything. I wanted to call the magus the warlock, but we argued about it for a couple of hours and he won the argument, mostly because there was a popular D&D class with that name that worked differently, and in the end we agreed it would cause too much confusion to call it that.
The second most important part is that "warpriest" doesn't really ring my "BS Bell" the same way that "warmage" does. I can't quite explain it, but it just doesn't bug me that much. Sorry.
The third part is I don't like "bloodrager" either, probably for the same reasons you don't. That said, it's pretty obvious what it is mechanically from the name, and thematically it does tie into magic blood, which is something we don't really have in the real world (that I know of). So I let it slip by.
The classes themselves are unlikely to change. The book will have 10 hybrid classes, roughly similar (if not quite similar) to the presentation in the playtest document.
That said, Paizo is committed to a full, interactive playtest for these classes. The book is far, far, far from 90% complete. We are making every effort to take player comments to heart, and many changes will be made to the classes based on feedback during the playtest.
Our last playtest received valid criticisms about the amount of hands-on designer involvement and communication. We are committed to making sure that this is NOT the case with this playtest. I think you can see by the interaction Jason and his team have brought to this effort that they are committed to reading comments, responding frequently, and making changes if necessary.
Zombie Ninja wrote:
Yep, I really disagree with Jason on this one, but since the book is already laid out and likely mostly written, the designers are not going to go back to the scratch on some of the class abilities. Hopefully the'll keep this in mind, new stuff is cool too. Balance isn't everything.
To be clear about something, the book is not even remotely "already laid out." The PLAYTEST DOCUMENT, which is to say the ROUGH DRAFT of these classes is laid out, but that's a completely different animal than the book itself.
When _that_ process begins, several months from now, it will begin from scratch as an entirely different document. The fact that our art team spent a day dropping the text without art into a design template has no relationship whatsoever to the final book.
This is all essentially correct. It's a mile-tall tower erected by the archmage Nex as a Siege Castle during his unsuccessful attack on Absalom centuries ago. The Spire houses a collection of demiplanes Nex used to draw semi-corporeal shades of creatures imprisoned within. It is connected to his palace, the Bandeshar, in the city of Quantium, and contains many wonderful things.
We printed the standard number of copies for an volume in its sequence. If anything I think we were more concerned that conservative tastes in fantasy would depress the sales of an experiment like this. The fact that the opposite occurred is frankly a fantastic development in our understanding of the audience, since it encourages more experimentation and funkiness every once in a while. The most significant development is currently the upcoming Iron Gods Adventure Path, which may not have happened had this adventure received a more tepid response based simply on the concept of taking a step outside sword and sorcery.
That Brandon turned in a marvelous volume (because he did way more than just the adventure in this one) certainly helped, of course.
I don't think it's fair to say that Paizo is too big to listen to product problems. You've got the direct ear of one of the company's senior executives addressing your specific gripe directly on a public messageboard.
In many, many cases when our customers have issues with something we produce we move heaven and earth to address them specifically. For example, when the Pathfinder Battles line started, many customers were dissatisfied with the packaging so we worked with WizKids to address that issue specifically.
I can assure you that we will do everything we can to make sure that the pieces of larger miniatures fit together well. The wings on the last two dragons have been tricky, but I have them fully assembled in my office with no use of glue, and lots of folks are likewise using them without a "permanent" solution.
There were, to my knowledge, no problems with the multi-part Rune Giant, and really I haven't heard too many complaints about the fit of the Gargantuan Blue in Shattered Star, either.
For what it's worth, I haven't noticed any problems after assembling multiple production-run copies of the Gargantuan Green Dragon from Legends of Golarion, either.
It's not that we don't listen, it's that we cannot solve every single issue to the satisfaction of every single customer in every single instance.
Then you're probably out for a lot of these big minis, unfortunately, because they will often be shipped in multiple pieces. This reduces the cost of both the product itself and of shipping (because the box is smaller), and it makes the figures more durable and less likely to break in shipping.
The figures are not supposed to require glue. Sometimes a joint doesn't fit perfectly, and you may need/want to glue it together to make it fit. That's far preferable, at least to me, to charging $50 per figure and replacing a third of them due to breakage.
If losing your business on these large figures is the price to pay for that, I think we're going to have to live with it.
Thanks for the honest feedback. It's pretty clear we could have been more communicative regarding the wind-up of the Mythic Adventures playtest, and I apologize on behalf of the company if you feel that your efforts were wasted. We will endeavor to improve communication on the upcoming Advanced Class Guide playtest. This thread has provided a lot of good food for thought on that score.
Thanks for sticking around and using a frustrating experience as the basis for providing constructive criticism.
Would it earn one more lame in that last sentence if I told you that Legends of Golarion was originally supposed to come out _before_ Skull & Shackles?
Because, honestly, I feel like your post was missing just one more smidgen of disappointment, and that could really push it over the edge into something truly special.
It's a balor, drawn from the image in the Bestiary Box. For that Pawn set, we re-ordered some art that we didn't like for whatever reason or (as in this case) art that originally had a more "horizontal" composition that wouldn't easily fit on the "vertical" pawn.
Other figures shown in the pictures above include (from left to right) Serpentfolk High Priest, Queen Ileosa, King Irovetti, Hellknight Signifer, and Thrune Agent.
Guys, let's ratchet down the confrontation going on here. Past surveys and threads here have made it clear that there are a lot of metal heads that play Pathfinder, an we thought that this band and song were a good fit for the material. It's all subjective, of course. Different people like different things, and that's ok. We'll likely do more of this type of thing in the future, and we'll likely go with different music then. Since it did take us something like five years to do one video, folks who would prefer a video with classical, country, klezmer, or whatever are encouraged to use the community use rules to make their own.
That's all Jenny is engaged in, here. A little friendly encouragement.
Please feel free to leave your feedback. We're always listening and we'll always take your feedback into consideration as we move forward.
So thanks for the feedback. But let's not get into any fights over music in this thread.
Because if we do, I GUARANTEE you the soundtrack will be speed metal, and apparently some of you won't like that! :)
I'm not interested in seriously engaging when is a good time to do a new edition, if we'll do a new edition, etc., but I did want to say that we've sold more Core Rulebooks than the year before every single year since the Core Rulebook came out*, so we're not exactly looking at a precipitous decline like you might imagine. Or even a decline, period.
* This was not the case the year after the launch, for obvious reasons, but has held true since then.
I've looked into it, and for right now the costs associated with building molds for this type of thing means we'd need to sell several thousand of each figure (likely more like 10 or 20 thousand), and that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
I want Pathfinder action figures too (and I know Lisa does as well), so in the meantime we're doing everything we can to grow the size of the Pathfinder audience in general to the point where something like this becomes more feasible.
We _are_ producing some Pathfinder Mini-Mates with our partners at Diamond Select Toys, with the first set (featuring Merisiel, Harsk, Valeros, and a Goblin) coming out some time around Christmas. Mini-Mates are about 2 inches tall, and come with swappable equipment, hair, and outfits, so it should be pretty cool and a nice way to pass the time until genuine action figures are a real possibility.
Legends of Golarion was originally intended to come out _before_ Skull & Shackles, so had my original plan happened as conceived, you'd have received two of your listed choices prior to Seltiyel and Lirianne.
Incidentally, I included Lirianne in this set because I think her aesthetic fits with the pirate theme, and the set already has some gunslingers in it so people bound to freak out about that would have already gotten in out of their system. :)
Legends has exactly none of that stuff in it, I'm afraid. It does contain Lini, who is a gnome druid, but overall it's pretty low on PC types who are not also Eagle Knights, Hellknights, etc. And there aren't very many shorties in the set.
You will likely be pleased to know that I am currently gathering all of our good dwarf and gnome PC art, however, as I feel these races have been under represented in the line so far and I'd like to do something about it as soon as I can.
In the 1990s, in addition to regular games of D&D and other systems, I played extensively in TSR's RPGA network, traveling all around the country to dozens and dozens of conventions. I literally played D&D with _thousands_ of people of all different types, from casual gamers to hard-core completists to guys who fell asleep 10 minutes into the adventure. And you know what I learned during that period?
Different people like different things.
Some people love tactical play like dungeon crawls. Some people would prefer to never leave the tavern, loving the play-acting element of the game and not really caring much at all about the rules or combat.
Most people fall somewhere in the middle, but even then they might have very different ideas about what's cool, about things like genre mixing, or about nearly every element of gaming.
Someone's personal taste does not make them stupid or immature simply because their taste differs from yours. It's certainly not a solid basis for slinging insults or getting bent out of shape about it.
Your tastes (or my tastes, for that matter) are no "better" than anyone else's. It's all subjective. Again, different people appreciate different things. That's simply human nature.
It's also human nature, or at least gamer nature, to minimize the value of those who disagree, or whose tastes are different from ours. We can say their preferences are immature, or stupid, or regressive, or whatever. It's all just internet posturing, really. Pointless internet posturing, at that.
Pathfinder has been around for nearly 80 volumes. Most of what we do lies in that sweet spot in the middle that appeals to the widest variety of gamers. A little dungeon crawling for the tactical-minded players, some cool roleplaying for the play-acting crowd. Most gamers don't draw the lines so distinctly, and appreciate a nice mix of different elements. Sometimes, as in the case of Rasputin Must Die or some of the big dungeons in Shattered Star, we'll nudge the pendulum a little further in one direction, hoping that some folks will really appreciate it. And since we usually do the extreme stuff relatively sparingly, at least those who don't care for extremes can be relatively sure that things will swing back to normal relatively shortly.
In 80 some issues, there are bound to be some Pathfinder adventures that swing out of your comfort zone a bit, or that simply don't appeal to you. That's natural, and it's true of all of us. You can't tailor a mass-market product to every potential customer all the time. It's just impossible.
On the other hand, if you've been checking out Pathfinder for 80 issues and can find nothing to like and only things to complain about, it's likely the case that the product simply isn't for you.
That doesn't make you objectively wrong, or stupid, or childish, or superior. It just means you like what you like, and there's no shame in that.
There are plenty of RPG products out there these days, so the good news is there's bound to be someone out there making products that match your personal tastes very closely. If Pathfinder doesn't fit the bill, I'm confident one of those other games will come closer to the mark.
One of the reasons we expanded the Pathfinder Modules format was to give us more room to tell cool higher-level stories while dealing with the sprawl of high-level stat blocks, which can chew through enough of a 32-page module that it's really hard to have much description or depth otherwise.
We'll definitely be doing more high-level adventures in this line in the future.
This is a great thread.
My Emerald Spire level will add some interesting information to this thread, that's for sure.
And the Last Azanti thing in the Thornkeep level is an indirect reference to a major Aroden thread in my personal Kings of Absalom campaign, which I hope to publish some day. Lots of stuff in there about Aroden, his role in the final days of the Empire, his magic sword, and other interesting bits, including magical "flashback" scenes that take place during the era of Old Azlant itself.
We are a ways off on the Test of the Starstone, probably as in "years from now". That is a hugely ambitious project, and to put it simply we aren't ready for it yet. Mythic rules probably qualify for what I was talking about in that old post in terms of power level, but to be honest I'm fine with it just being a 20th level adventure, the capstone to a "normal" campaign.
But it's all academic at the moment because we don't have the capacity to give the Test of the Starstone the proper presentation, at least not yet. It will be interesting to see (and here I'm speaking mostly in terms of in-house stuff that you guys never see) how the Emerald Spire superdungeon goes in terms of development, coordination, and editing. I am certain it will be incredibly awesome, but the internal mechanisms of how it gets that way will tell us a lot about how to pull off a huge one-shot adventure with multiple authors, which is one likely (and my favorite) presentation for a Test of the Starstone supermodule.
So seeing how the Emerald Spire production effort goes off and what we can learn about it to make it better is, in my mind, one of the most important milestones we as a company would need to achieve to do the Test of the Starstone correctly.
Don't forget masked elves from the Mordant Spire, who consider the territory theirs to protect.
There are likely numerous bound outsiders from the ancient days still floating around.
Incorporeal undead from the ancient era are a good way to convey expository information while at the same time providing a good fight (and a possibly recurring villain).
Azanti were experts at clockworks, so a lot of those and similar constructs likely abound.
Pitcairn-isle-style meager colonies inhabited by shipwreck survivors.
Lots and lots of sea drakes and dragons inhabiting the choicest spires.
We would love to have him write something for us. Bruce is one of the best adventure writers since the beginning of the business, in my book, and a pal going back to the Ptolus campaign.
Good for Bruce. It's exciting to me to think about what we might get from him next.
I just wanted to drop in and let everyone know definitively that the name of the book is the name of the book, and it won't be changing at this point. We appreciate the comments and alternative points of view, but the sheer mechanics of how books are made, solicited, and sold essentially prohibits a change from being made at this point.
I can assure everyone that the book will approach its subjects from numerous points of view, and that most of the folks who have posted their hopes for the book will likely be pleased by some of the points of view presented in the book. These races have often received short shrift in the past (and even here they need to share the spotlight), and we're going to do the best we can to make sure we do justice to them.
You guise, we will totally get to Razmir. I'm in Jason's current campaign and he has been doing all sorts of awesome stuff about them. Let me just say that after the last few weeks of Jason's game I am 100% confident that I hate the Cult of Razmir more than any of you, and the desire to spread Jason's particular blend of "I am screwing you over right in front of your face and smiling because there is nothing you can do about it" to as many campaigns as possible (i.e. "yours") is overwhelming.
I am certain all of this campaign material will find its way into a Bulmahn project soon enough. He is currently working on Bone Keep for Pathfinder Society, and after that I will start lobbying him hard to turn some of this campaign stuff into a book. It's brilliant and you fine folks really should have it.
We'll get better images later when the production samples arrive. This is the paint master, and it was only in the building for about an hour. We'll try to think of this with the next Gargantuan case incentive mini, though.
For scale it's about the same size as the Gargantuan Blue Dragon from Shattered Star.
I think it makes sense to start the concept and tailor it with "My First Campaign Set" stuff like pawns, encounter-scale Flip-Mats, and mini-adventures to give it out of the box play value. Focus it on the same levels as the Beginner Box, primarily.
If it sold great and could trigger a Magnimar or Korvosa or Riddleport or Kaer Maga boxed set, well, that would be pretty cool too.
A couple of points that might be helpful to remember.
1) Shattered Star was originally planned to be a late 2012 release and slipped to 2013.
2) Skull & Shackles was originally planned to come out in June or July, but slipped to August.
3) Paint quality on Pathfinder Battles is going UP, not the other way around. I approve every paint master in the line, and will not let it slip.
4) The idea of monthly Pathfinder Battles set releases is a fantasy. We literally cannot go any faster than we are currently going.
5) The Builder Series and Encounter Packs are not "auto-purchases" as part of the case subscription, and case subscribers enjoy a healthy discount on them to make them easier to afford.
6) None of the Encounter Packs or Builder Series sets are out of print, and the Builder Series sets are designed specifically to be "evergreen". If money is tight you shouldn't worry about missing one of these if you don't buy them on day 1.
7) Both Paizo and WizKids very closely monitors feedback posted here and elsewhere, so your concerns are definitely being taken into consideration.