Eric Tenneson's page

If you are just going to take all the wealth away, why give it out at all?

I would not try it.
If you succeed they will be upset.
If you fail they will just have more wealth than you intended for them to have, and at high levels it is harder to control PC's.

Three things come to mind:

1. The barbarian will have to be close to people to break their stuff. What kind of fight set up are we looking at with the barbarian? Is he starting 20 feet away? Does he charge and hit someone first round? Does the party have a wizard or is sneaky?

2. My players (and I) would not have fun in a game where I spent a long time writing up magical items to have one (or more) of them destroyed in the first encounter.

Or to put it bluntly: If I asked you to spend 2-3 hours making a cake, and then threw it on the ground (giving you a chance to catch it), would you have a good time?

3. Are you going to tell the players that sundering will be a main aspect of this game? That will make them knowledgeable and less likely to be angry.

1. Order a delicious pizza.
2. Inform the players that the rules for the pizza are as follows: Whenever a PC kills an enemy, that player gets to have a slice. When an enemy kills a PC, the GM gets a slice.
3. TPK the PCs.

Evil, eh? Alright.

As GM, tell your players to create the most powerful characters they can imagine, no limits, for an epic game you're planning. They can use any material they want.

On game day, ask for all their character sheets, pass them their new sheets (a party of level one kobolds) and tell them that they must defend their warren homes from invading god-beings.

Also... pugwampis...

Post on a forum about a Jade Regent campaign, telling people to get characters made up for it.

Help them create incredible backstories and interesting characters.

Have all of your players drive up to/ride the bus about 10-20 miles to get there.

When everyone gets there, bait and switch to a Vampire the Masquerade campaign instead.

Get pissed when no one else wants to play and proceed to waste everyone's time when *GASP* you don't have the Jade Regent AP and nothing is prepared.

Sadly I was a player in this game that never was, taking the bus about 15 miles to get there. Luckily I got a ride back.

Sunder/disintegrate the gear at every opportunity. Cut limbs. Rape the female characters. Do I really need to go on?

Quit in the middle of an awesome campaign in which all the players are very engaged and involved.

Telling a Wizard that all spells he gets is 2 per level, and that there are no magic item shops in the game, proceeded by handing out uber-useless magic items. Of course, that goes great with banning crafting feats.

My ruling would be no.

And if he pressed on, my explanation would be: imagine you're suddenly full of hot air. You will float above the water, and if you're submerged you will be pushed up until you get to the surface.
Now, a waterfall is pushing you down, and the water at the bottom of it is falling at (45.49*H) feet/second, where H is the height of the waterfall. 60 feet per round is 10 feet per second. Unfortunately, the waterfall is pushing you down way faster than you can move up.

Question: Can a cleric casting water walk go up a waterfall?

Think of it this way. You have legs that work pretty well walking on ground just as water walk allows you to walk on water.

Every try climbing an avalanche?

I am just hoping that there are enough people interested in this that they decide to continue the whole solar system and eventually we have a hardcover book like the Inner Sea Guide for the solar system. That would be awesome, and then an AP on the red planet and then an AP on the green planet... And then...

Can't wait for this and everything that comes out after it.

I'm all for more description and campaign background over yet another "playable" race.

I think 'lack of official Paizo psionics rules for Pathfinder' may be one of the major reasons for not including Lashunta stats. The race is psi-focused, and the rules for that aren't out yet (though I hope they eventually come out). This argument doesn't really hold for the other races (unless they also require rules expansions to build), and it would be nice to see stats for them, but I think this book is still going to give lots of awesome info on the various planets.

TheLoneCleric wrote:

I wonder how they are going to represent Castrovelian psionics.

I assume by mentioning that they have them, but without any details.

Exactly. There are a lot of things in this book--psionics, new races, etc.--that are mentioned or described without presenting all the rules and statistics. There are some new rules and new monsters, but really, this book is a gazetteer overview of the system. As folks have pointed out, there's just not enough room to do everything in a 64-page book! That said, I really tried to jam-pack this thing full of inspirational ideas for GMs to explore on their own, so hopefully everyone will feel like they got their money's worth. (I imagine folks will find the Advanced Race Guide quite useful in designing playable aliens....)

I preordered mine on Dec 7.

Yeah they will mention they have psychic abilities and that will more then likely it except maybe telepathy or telekinetic abilities.

I wonder how they are going to represent Castrovelian psionics.

I also find it telling that the OP did not want to GM Pathfinder originally, but was apparently shoehorned into doing so. If you aren't happy GMing the system, don't. Tell them that you want to GM GURPS or 4e or AD&D, whatever system you like. They can either play that system or one of them can GM Pathfinder and let you play a character.

I've been in this exact situation with a group before... here's what I did:

"Hey guys, I'm getting kind of bummed out about our gaming because [explain how I personally am losing enjoyment of the game because of specific behaviors that are happening and the looks of disappointment I get to see on the faces of the non-dominating players' faces], and if we can't fix this, and quick, I am just going to stop running this game."

That's what it took - the idea that if they didn't start helping to make the group as a whole run like a well-oiled-machine and help to make each player, myself included, enjoy the game to the fullest possible degree that they would not get to play the game they enjoy at all.

Just play Munchkin until they decide to work as a team.

This is all about people who aren't willing to support each others' fun and recognise that this is a Co-operative roleplaying game.

If I ended up with players who weren't willing to support each other I would try to find better friends.

Everyone in your group is failing to be supportive of other peoples' fun: how awful!

Which diamond spray spell are we talking about here? The one on the d20pfsrd.com? It's not much different from fireball except that the target has to be a lot closer (only a 20 ft range) so that shouldn't be a game breaker.

As far as ray of exhaustion (don't forget the Fort save for fatigue instead of exhaustion) and diamond spray, at 5th level, the most he's going to have (most likely) are 2 3rd level spells. Hit the group with another couple of encounters during the day and he doesn't have them available to him. If he's got a lot of utility spells, great. He won't be dominating in combat.

If the undead get to be a problem, sic the Pharasman inquisition on him. The church of Pharasma is sure to take a dim view of necromancers running around with undead creations. Paladins of Iomedae and Sarenrae are likely to be trouble too.

As far as the oracle goes, either you're pretty generous on points, he rolled well, or he has something he has dumped. Don't be afraid to go for his weaknesses.

The oracle's color spray may be pretty good now, but it will decline in effectiveness as the PCs level up. Granted, he'll probably have other tricks up his sleeve then, but that one comes with an expiration date.

People have mentioned hitting them from range. Most of the spells you've mentioned are short range, not even the calculated range but finite and absolutely short. Melee support close.

There's not much you're going to be able to do about the two players being better or cleverer players aside from giving the other 3 players more opportunities tailored just for them - elements from their background that drive the main campaign story arc or are the main hooks for the adventures. That might help them feel more ownership of the campaign. If they're particularly passive about pursuing this, then there's not that much you can do. Perhaps you should mention that to them when they complain.

As far as all this goes, you've got 2 types of players - Min-maxers and non-minmaxers. Ideally, the min-maxers should tone things down since they make up a minority of the group. Telling them in no uncertain terms to do so isn't being arbitrary. It's getting group members on the same footing. Dominating players can be trouble if the rest of the group is too passive. That would be true with 4e as well because they'd have probably distributed their standard array more effectively and would be milking the rituals for every advantage they could find. Push the other characters to perform at a higher level and talk to the other two characters about leaving niches for other PCs to shine.

Well one thing I have learned is you can't change people. If people like b%^&*ing then they will. No amount of sympathy or fixing of problems will stop it for long before they find something new to b%^&* about. It's how they were brought up to act and it's how they influence others. The most effective tactic I have employed against such people is silence. Ignore them when they b%^&*. Another tactic if they are better friends is to admonish them for being hurtful over a simple game.

Apologies if I miss something or repeat something someone else has said, I am noticing people are posting to this as I type.

I am a GM of 10 years and numerous systems. A while ago my group ask me if I would run a Pathfinder campaign and I said I would look into it. I read the rules and said no, the game isn't balanced and you have already proven I can't trust you guys to not to have a campaign degenerate into interpersonal conflict when a game isn't balanced.

Well I did a different campaign instead, the plot lasted for 5 months and ended over the holidays. They bugged me to start a new campaign and ask to play pathfinder again and I caved.

The players made the following party and all are now level 5:

Gnome Oracle (Heavens)
Human Wizard (Necromancer)
Human Cavalier
Half Elf Rogue
Human Ranger(Guide)

The Gnome Oracle and Human Wizard are the problem. Not just in combat but I will start with that.

First, a question: what's the theme of your campaign? Is it urban, wilderness, dungeon crawl, planewalking, etc.? That might help us provide some more specific suggestions suited to your campaign (and/or highlight more why certain PCs are shining more than others).

Knowing what books you allow might be helpful too.

And finally, as someone noted--it may be worth sitting down and having a chat and asking the Oracle and Wizard--who sound like more experienced players--to tone it back and also talk to the other three players about how they can think more tactically.

Some more specific stuff follows.

Firstly the Gnome Oracle has Charisma 22,

How and why? Was there a very generous point buy allowed or did he roll well? High point buys tend to favor SAD classes like spellcasters because they can become solid in all stats but then still be able to boost their primary stat way up. Just a note, may not be able to change it now. I suggest going light on stat boost magic items becoming available.

Awesome Display, Eschew Materials and Improved Initiative. The majority of encounters effectively end when he casts his DC 18 -6 effective HD on the targets Colour Spray. Sure its not technically over, there are usually a few enemies not caught in its radius if the encounter is outdoors but this takes the sense of urgency out of any fight. Before you even start on the subject of using enemies that are blind or immune to mind-affecting, I already am and there are only so many of those that can be shoe horned into an adventure they don't thematic belong in. Its at the point other players have commented on only being their to knife the throats the a unconscious seizureing enemies so the Gnome doesn't need to get his hands dirty.

The "they don't thematically belong" is exactly why we need to know more about the nature of the campaign.

As others have noted, you need large numbers of mooks and terrain where everyone isn't close together so that when he casts his spell, there are a lot of foes outside the area of effect of this spell. Interestingly, this gets easier as they get higher level, because you can have a lot more creatures that add up to the party's relative CR.

Color spray is also a relatively close range spell. Make it so he has to traverse difficult terrain or provoke AOOS to get into position to cast the spell.

Having a one trick pony can prove to be problematic to the player, eventually. Depending on the campaign, there should be enemies who get wise to the fact that "the damned gnome will cast an illusion to stun everyone first." If he really is doing it all the time, the enemies should begin to be prepared. Give them potions that boost their Will save or other disposable items that give them temporary resistance versus the gnome's opening gambit. Make sure you have someone shout -- "there's the damned gnome, don't get too close, or he'll zap you with those pretty lights of his, just like he got Bob!" before they wail on him with ranged weaponry. Make it clear they know he does this all the time and his lack of creativity in fighting is becoming a liability.

(The reason I say disposable items is because you don't want to give the party an amulet that makes you immune to illusions or what have you; on the other hand, their getting a few potions of owl's wisdom isn't game breaking. Plus, disposable items are cheap and should be well within a CR 3,4, or 5's treasure allotment)

Where appropriate, foes could occasionally have their own spellcasters (or outsiders with SLAs--those can start showing up) stay out of range and target the gnome oracle's likely low Fortitude saves. And nothing stops you from giving them Improved Initiative as well.

Secondly the Human Wizard, generally anticipates what he needs prepared in terms of utility spells but more on out of combat later.

Then you need to be more creative with the kind of "utility" that is required of the party. You mentioned the cavalier doing well outdoors, so I assume you are in the wilderness some. Start playing with weather and terrain effects --- these can create "utility" situations that the wizard shouldn't immediately be able to fix. For example, terrain that you can traverse well only if you have good Acrobatics (then the Rogue gets to shine), weather that forces a concentration check to cast spells, generally difficult situations that let the ranger take care of the party, high altitudes and extreme temperatures that force Fortitude saves, etc. etc. etc.

He is currently in command of several Undead that made up the "immune to mind-affect" enemies the party has fought.

Correct me if I am missing something, but Control Undead (per the necromancer ability) allows you to control, per the PRD, "any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your [wizard] level." This is at most 5HD of undead. Even low level undead usually have at least 2 HD, which leaves him at most, about 2 minions. Useful, but this should not be game breaking. If they're skeletons, then 5, but 5 skeletons are 5 skeletons.

Secondly, Control Undead works as command undead, which lasts only 1 minute per level, or 5 minutes for your wizard. Assuming an Int of 18 or 20, he can attempt to Control Undead 7-8 times a day, thus for a total of at most, 40 minutes per day. Presumably once he ran out of the uses of the ability, he should not be able to command them anymore, and they would either attack the party or wander off.

Diamond Spray, Scorching Ray and Ray of Exhaust are the only combat spells he ever bothers with.

I cannot find a spell called diamond spray in the Pathfinder rules. If you're importing broken stuff from 3.x splats, no wonder your casters are dominating. I might rethink that--at least for your next campaign. If I misunderstand this, then I apologize.

Scorching ray and ray of exhaustion are both nasty -- but especially by the party's level, there should be some foes that have high touch ACs that should make it harder for these spells to be successful. Hitting the wizard with effects that lower his attack bonus also works. Not to mention things that block line of sight.

For the former, enemies with fire resistance (again, disposable potions of resist energy should be easily available to appropriate foes) should also help keep that from being a win button. For the latter, high Fort saves should help.

The rays are also, IIRC, single target spells. Again---lots of enemies. So that even if he knocks someone down, someone should still be standing.

Also, I think doing these things shouldn't gimp the casters--just force them to come up with new strategies, which is good for everyone involved.

Rarely has more than 2 Prepared because of how effective they are. There has been 3 instances of encounters ending on turn 2 because helpless creatures with Dex 0 can't pass Reflex Saves worth a damn due to a Colour Spray + Diamond Spray combo.

Don't know how you can work it into your campaign, but a pair of assassin vines would be an interesting fight. Again, you mentioned there were some wilderness fights, so I assume they could be in a wilderness scenario somewhere. The right CR, they have to get close to see them for what they are, by which time the casters are in range of the vines' entangle ability (which can be activated as a free action!). It will be immune to color spray (and I assume, diamond spray, whatever that is), and it has good Fort saves to reduce the effect of ray of exhaustion, and fire resistance to reduce the effectiveness of scorching rays (but it will still work, but that makes the wizard feel useful--just not as effective as usual).

It would be worth looking at constructs and oozes.

And again, if they have repeated enemies or enemies from the same organization/group, word of how they fight should spread. If the same spells are being spammed over and over again, enemies should have a chance to get wise to that and prepare accordingly.

Out of combat the Gnome Oracle dominates social encounters given their maxed out diplomacy modifier.

Not all social encounters should come down to Diplomacy. It can help, but there should be things where Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive should also be important.

Both the Oracle and Wizard also dominate in the problem solving department between their spells and tbh being smarter than the other three players IRL.

That isn't an issue of game imbalance, that's an issue of two players being more experienced/tactically oriented than the other three. That's not something that can be fixed in game. This is where the talking comes in, both to ask the vets to back off a little and talk to the other three about how they can improve their tactics.

Maybe run an unofficial "training session" with the other three players to give them a feel of how to work together without the other two stepping on their toes. Shouldn't count as part of the main campaign, basically it's just a practice session.

Also talk to the three about what kind of challenges excite them and what they are good at, and make sure you include challenges like that in your sessions.

The Gnome Oracle is also the best roleplayer and knows all of the best questions to ask of npcs,

"Knows all the best questions to ask NPCs" doesn't sound like "best roleplayer" to me. It sounds like best metagamer. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but is it appropriate for the character to be asking the questions he does, or is he using player knowledge to influence his actions? That's metagaming, and that should not be tolerated in cases like this.

the Rogue really feel useless sharing it. The rogue is still getting the opportunity to RP but it feels redundant.

Work in some stuff with black marketeers speaking Thieves Cant (requires Bluff to understand and communicate in). Or something like that.

The other players are asking me to do something about them being useless in combat but for the life of me I can't think of anything I have already done. Every solution to the Oracle and Wizard either makes them totally useless and/or hampers the entire party (anti-magic fields turn off the other players equipment as much as the casters spells). Having more outdoor encounters than we already have to kept AoE from beign as strong will just make people b@+$+ about the Cavalier being give to much of an advantage.

Ranger should have an advantage too, outdoors, and Rogue in a wilderness area should have room to flank and/or shoot things, so if they really feel this is a problem, again this is something that needs to be discussed -- and the three non casters need to have a long chat about improving tactics.

Taking away the Wizard's ability to have undead minions both invalidates his character concept and taking away colour spray goes against the intended design of the Oracle class (given Awesome Display was intentionally meant to go with this spell).

You shouldn't have to have take them away, but they have in built limitations I think you are not either aware of (a la Command Undead) or using (color spray is Will negates, close range, and in a limited cone area).

Seriously how do you people play this game with players of differing skill levels? If I just arbitrarily come down on these players I am just being a s$$$ty GM to them as much as letting it go unhindered is beign a s&++ty GM to the others.

In the worst case scenario, you have two players with a very set way of playing who are very tactical, and three different players who have a different play style and aren't very tactical. If they cannot adapt to work with each other, it might be best for you to run the group of people you are happiest running the game for, and telling the others they need to find a GM who can meet their needs more easily.

I second archers and mobs

Talk to your players - explain how you experience the situation . Ask them what they think about it. Listen to what they say. If no solution can be found, stop playing pathfinder and change system.

All systems favor some concepts over other concepts. When the group is of the same creative agenda, this is not much of an issue. However, when you have optimizers mixed with non-optimizers, it becomes a problem.

Discussing the issues with everyone should help. Are the non-optimizers not optimizing because they do not know the system well enough? Ask the others to help them out. Do they have specific concepts in mind? Again, ask the others to help them meet their concept and stay relevant. Do they have some other reason for not wanting to optimize? See if all of you can find some common ground where everyone can enjoy the game.

If I might ask, why are you running games for them at all when it doesn't sound like they get along and your not having any fun?

If not everyone is having fun, talk to the two players and ask them to tone down their characters.

This works no matter what amazing build a player comes up with and does not lead to an arms race with the GM. If they refuse to listen, they risk alienating the other players and losing a GM.

1. The first range increment of the common shortbow is 60'. A 5th-level caster of color spray throws a 35' cone. Start more fights in big rooms, long corridors, or the great outdoors.

2. Anything that has SR 6 or more compels your oracle (and wizard, when he's casting) to make one more roll to succeed.

3. Your party's necromancer is in for a truly nasty surprise the first time he comes up against an evil cleric who took the Rebuke Undead feat...

4. Using the same signature attack over and over is going to come back to haunt both characters soon: I refer you to the Clr4 spell spell immunity.

5. Employ more monsters that nauseate, entangle, grapple/pin, blind, etc. - and if they're smart enough to know who the real dangers are, make sure they beeline for the casters, regardless of AoOs. (If the martial characters intercept the monsters, that still suits your long-term goal of "make the other characters feel useful.")

6. Don't be afraid to put in plenty of low-level enemy spellcaster support: acid arrow, glitterdust, magic missile and silence are all solid ways to make things uncomfortable for casters. I've also had PCs blow a surprising amount of first-round spell resources on what turned out to be a minor image...

7. Sounds to me like the party is suffering from 15-Minute Work Day Syndrome (i.e., the spellcasters can stop and rest as soon as they've used up their best spells.) There are several other threads that discuss fixing this problem.

8. Introducing contacts specific to individual PC can help with the social situations. The cavalier might know a nobleman who trained with him, while the rogue knows an information broker in the city who can find out just about anything... for the right price. Giving everybody, including the oracle & wizard, a contact will help avoid the impression of playing favorites (even if the non-casters happen to have slightly more useful contacts.)

9. Lastly, there's the away-from-the-table solution. Privately ask the players of the Oracle and the Wizard to concentrate a little less on immediate overwhelming force and a little more on making sure the majority of the players are having fun? Reserving their best tactics for times when the other players can't handle the fight will make them much more popular...

> How Do I Prevent These Two Players From Dominating The Group
> Without Arbitrary Gimping Them?

Talk to them.

As soon as I saw the 'wizard has undead minions' I thought of this.

If not everyone is having fun, talk to the two players and ask them to tone down their characters. Let them know that it's great that they want their time to shine, but so do the other people playing at the table.

I hate it when (in LFR) I get someone at the table who just massacres everything in round 1 and the DM calls the combat. I want to do stuff too, dang it! I don't care that the combat was finished in that first round. That sucks and isn't fun for anyone except the one PC who did all the damage dealing.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Again, here is the RAW:

[snip]

Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.

Yes, it is the RAW (scroll down to "Manifesting and Augmenting").

Bwuh? I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but here's the text of Overchannel <snipped>.

OK, my brief explanation wasn't completely clear the first time(s), so hopefully this will be clearer:

A 1st level psion with an Int 18 (or even Int 20 with a +2 racial bonus) has 2 base pp + 2 bonus pp. The Psionic Talent grants 2 extra pp/day (now 6 total); the Overchannel feat increases his effective manifester level to 2nd when it's used, but he does not receive any bonus pp/day for this raise in manifester level.

• Manifesting mind thrust, the overchanneling psion can spend up to 2 extra points to augment the effect by an extra 2d10 to 3d10 total; doing so also increases the DC to 16 for an 18 Int psion or DC to 17 for a 20 Int psion.
  
• Manifesting daze/telempathic lash, the overchanneling psion can spend up to 2 extra points to augment the effect to effect a max 6HD creature for 1 round -OR- a 5HD creature for 2 rounds or a 4HD creature for 3 rounds; doing so also increases the DC to 16 for an 18 Int psion or DC to 17 for a 20 Int psion.

After either manifestation, he has only 3 pp remaining, so assuming he doesn't drop from hp loss, he can repeat either of the above one more time, which will very likely leave him dying.

Here is her example:

Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...

And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.

(emphasis mine) The psion can manifest powers with augments based on his higher manifester level, but after burning all 6 of his pp on augmented/overchanneled mind thrusts, he will have run out of pp before he can manifest either of the daze/telempathic lash powers.

...

(And this part isn't directed at you, Hogarth) And that disregards that the psion now needs to have a party member to burn a cure light wounds spell/potion/wand charges or channeled healing to keep him alive.

Whereas a 1st level sorcerer with an 18 or 20 Int, automatically gets a base DC 15 or DC 16, 4 or 5 1st level spell slots, the damage for those spells scales automatically with additional levels, he still has two free feat slots, he gets better spells to choose from, and he takes no hit point loss from simply casting.

If the psion is "broken," what does that make the sorcerer?

hogarth wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Again, here is the RAW:

[snip]

Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.

Yes, it is the RAW (scroll down to "Manifesting and Augmenting").

Bwuh? I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but here's the text of Overchannel.

Overchannel [Psionic]

You burn your life force to strengthen your powers.

Benefit
While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage. At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective manifester level by two, but you take 3d8 points of damage. At 15th level, you can increase your effective manifester level by three, but you take 5d8 points of damage.

The effective increase in manifester level increases the number of power points you can expend on a single power manifestation, as well as increasing all manifester level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming power resistance.

I am a psionics fans myself, and everytime myths get shot down it always falls back on "well I just don't like it so I won't allow it anyway".

My response is this:
If you just don't care for then that is all you have to say. Don't go and try to knock it down so it looks bad to others. The same statement goes for ToB as well.

Matthew Morris wrote:

...Myth, busted.

Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...

And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.

It is still broken, just not as insanely broke as it once appeared.

No myths busted.

Again, here is the RAW:

...it is critical to remember that a manifester may not spend more power points on a power than his manifester level. This includes spending power points augmenting the power, using metapsionic feats, or effects that result in needing to pay an increased power point cost to manifest a power.

For example a 5th level manifester may only spend a total of 5 power points on any single power, while a 19th level may only spend a total of 19 power points on any single power.

Effects that allow a manifester to increase this effect, such as the Overchannel feat or a wilder’s wild surge, do so by increasing the manifester’s effective manifester level - they are still bound by this rule.

Again, myths busted.

I honestly am not going to scour that text to prove points to you. You obviously do not care to debate it, only to prove me wrong - which you have not.

Later folks. Enjoy your thread.

Look, no one wants to cram psionics down your throat. You don't have to like the system, and feel free to rule it out in your games. But you can't claim it's broken when you don't grok the RAW.

Moved from previous thread, and ninja'd by Matt

Your examples are full of rules misunderstandings. For anyone interested:

Biofeedback - DR 2/- for 1 min per level at first level.

This is a 2nd level power for psions. Psychic warriors get it at first level, but they are expected to be primary meleers at medium BAB, and at first level know only one power and have one pp/day base. Biofeedback is nice for a meleer, but it's nowhere near great or a must have, let alone "broken."

Daze, Psionic - ability to daze an 8HD creature at first level.

(Renamed as telepathic lash) By RAW, a psionics user can only spend 1 pp at 1st level to augment a manifesting power. So you are only looking at a DC 15 (for an 18 Int psion) to a 5HD max critter -OR- a 4HD for 2 rounds for a power that still has to get through spell resistance, and a successful Will save completely negates all damage (many races get bonuses or immunities to resist mind-affecting effects). Again, nice when used selectively, but not broken.

Mind Thrust (18 stat psion) - 4d10 damage with a DC of 17 at first level.

Again by RAW, you are instead looking at only 2d10 or 11 hp average at DC 15, still have to worry about spell resistance, successful & Will/mind-affecting save completely negates. Nice when used selectively, but not broken.

Entangling Ectoplasm - ranged touch (easiest in game), -2 attack, -4 dex, any spell cast is 15+DC concentration check for 5 rounds in any environment at first level. Unable to break once the person is hit with it... As a side note, Entangle from the druid's first level spell is an AoE - which can cause issues for friendlies, has a save or check to break free every round, and can only be used outside where there is a reasonable amount of vegetation.

By RAW, one medium or smaller target only, a DC 15 to escape. Good but not great, and a druid's entangle hits multiple targets.

Let's move on please as I am no longer going to defend a position so adamantly defended in other posts :/ That is just 4 first level abilities. The book is broke.

If you play by RAW, it isn't broke - it's very balanced. But just like classic Vancian spellcasting, the GM and players have to know and understand all the rules.

From the Rite giveaway thread:

I will respond only this last time as I do not want to derail this important thread, but to answer your question...

Biofeedback - DR 2/- for 1 min per level at first level.

For one combat, blowing your bonus PP reserve. Unless you spent a feat of course. Also for Psychic Warriors only.

Daze, Psionic - ability to daze an 8HD creature at first level.

Nope. Metacap: you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level

Mind Thrust (18 stat psion) - 4d10 damage with a DC of 17 at first level.

Metacap.

Entangling Ectoplasm - ranged touch (easiest in game), -2 attack, -4 dex, any spell cast is 15+DC concentration check for 5 rounds in any environment at first level. Unable to break once the person is hit with it.

As a side note, Entangle from the druid's first level spell is an AoE - which can cause issues for friendlies, has a save or check to break free every round, and can only be used outside where there is a reasonable amount of vegetation.

Hmm, Range Long vs Range Close, one target vs a 40' radius spread... Reflex save vs ongoing effect vs ranged touch, Entangle renders the terrain difficult, slowing you even if you make the save.

Yes, EE is so much more powerful than Entangle.

So we have two powers that are OMG AWESOME when you ignore rules, one that is a first level power for psychic warriors, 2nd level for psions (We'll call this the hideous laughter of psionics) and one which may be situationally better than a spell, but can also be much worse.

Myth, busted.

I didn't like the 3.5 system.

Please note this isn't based on the mechanics of it (my only issue there was just how hard it was to shut down a psionic compared to a spell caster), instead it was on the approach.

For me the 3.5 system of psionics was... too much like the magic system. Spell levels, spells known, DCs... et al was just too close to what the psionic system did. I would rather have seen a more... talent approach to the system... maybe even more skill based instead of specialty based as it was.

I think I would prefer more of a branching out from a single power approach to psionics than the 'grab bag' method that in my opinion works better for magic.

That said I am not against psionics making their way into pathfinder, ambivalent yes, but not adverse. I just would like to see something more than what felt like 'more of the same' that 3.5 did.

Psionics is as medieval and fantasy as swords or dragons. But why it doesn't seem so is the historical oddity of Europe being under the control of a monotheistic religion which didn't allow for alternative belief systems. Essentially psionics are how people who have monist elements to there belief systems explain the occurrence of controllable supernatural happenstances.
Sufism, Yogis, Gnostic Christians, Buddhist all fit well with in the psionic realm.
As far as adapting psionic to be a variety sorcerer that just seems to be cruel. Those who use psionics have always had there own system, which in itself expresses psionics better then to the vancian system. To others less concerned about flavour it provides opportunity to play a non vancian caster.
I can understand psionics not being everyone’s variety of fun. But it is my variety. And has just as much place as Rakshasas, ninjas, splint mail, wish spells. All of which are non european but have found an unquestioned home in the game.

Yawn The Psionics are over powered again?

Let's see... Psionic powers can't be heightened so your globes never get old.

If see's example of Telepaths getting Dominate earlier than Wizards is an example of 'broken' Then I guess he's terrified of the mighty bard. After all hideous laughter comes to a bard at first level, while the wizard needs to wait until 3rd. OMG, bards are over powered.

As was pointed out above, 25k GP adds up quick. Not to mention the spell caster has his (free scaling) 1st-8th level spells still.

Oh, and don't forget, psions can only apply one metapsionic feat, two if they burn other feats.

I understand the worry that a balanced, scalable system might appeal overpowered to people who don't understand it. For the rest of us, it's a beautiful system.

Psi has no real relation to sci beyond the one people make of it. In fact, psychic powers are a concept that has been around at least as long as magic and has a place beside it given a chance. There is no reason to assume that psychic powers are sci in any form.

For example, all the powers associated with Indian and Tibetan yogi's.

Considered to be the Warrior Siddhi Powers:

Trikalajriatvam - knowledge of the past, present and future.
Advandvam: to be beyond pleasure-pain, cold-heat, soft-hard. Non-duality.
Parachittadyabhijnata: knowledge of dreams and the mind.
Pratishtambah: control of effect of fire, wind, water, poisons, weapons, and the sun.
Aparajayah: Victorious. Not able to be defeated.

The next are considered only to occur as the heart begins to purify and flower:

Anumimattvam: hunger, thirst, grief, sorrow, infatuation, delusion and confusion of the mind, old age and death do not harm the body.
Doorshravan: to hear, sitting at one place, speech from however distant a place.
Dudarshan: to see simultaneously events and things in all the realms.
Manojava: the body can travel at the speed of thought to any place.
Kaamaroopa: to assume any form. Shapeshifting.
Parakayapravesh: ability to enter into another's body, whether they are dead or alive.
Swachchandamrutyu: to die at one's own will, death having no control over one.
Sahakridanudarshanam: to see the sports of gods in heaven and have capacity and prowess to participate in it.
Yathaasamkalpa samsiddhi: to attain whatever is desired.
Ajnaapratihataagatih: whereby one's command and movement have no obstruction

These are considered to be the highest siddhi powers:

Anima: the reduction of one's form to one atom. Invisibility
Mahima/Garima: the body can be made to be very heavy.
Laghima: the body can be made to be extremely light
Prapti: abilty to acquire objects of sense pertaining to the respective organs.
Prakaashya: to see invisible things in other realms.
Ishitaa: to stimulate bodies and creatures Control of forces of nature.
Vashita: to have control or dominion over the senses.
Yatkamastadavasyati: To obtain joy by willing it so. The cessation of misery and desire. This is considered to be the highest state of bliss

Looks a lot like the powers and abilties of magic.

see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.

Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.

P.S.: Your average lvl20 psion can cast Reality Revision (psionic Wish/Miracle) 27 times per day. Your average cleric/wizard can do that about 5 times. With greater technical limitations like verbal/somatic components and being identified on sight. GG!

How often do level 20 clerics/wizards actually need/want cast Wish/Miracle five times a day? What's that? The answer is "almost never, outside of pumping intrinsic bonuses, which is done in noncombat periods anyway?" Even with the 459 power points it'd require, casting Reality Revision 27 times in a day would consume most of a level 20 character's expected wealth. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that when people draw up level 20 characters, they don't plan on putting most of their wealth into a single crazy day of frantic wishing. If the worst thing that anyone can think of for psions to do is to break the wishes/day cap, I'm pretty comfortable with that.

Really, anybody who wasn't misunderstanding the psionics rules (a lot of uncareful readers during 3.5's heyday missed that you can't spend an unlimited number of points at a time) and who has actually played with psionics and magic at the same table (that is, basically everyone who's ever played with psionics) knows that it isn't at all the case that "hilarity ensues". Psionics is neither objectively nor - and this is more important - observationally less balanced than the core magic systems, except maybe if you consider the ability to cast undetected to be the be-all and end-all of what a caster could hope for. If you're penalizing conventional casters two spell levels and two feats for silent and still on everything because obviously in real play every arcane caster applies those metamagic feats to every single spell they cast, because casting without being detected is important in every circumstance ever and also because non-detection is the only beneficial effect that those two metamagic feats have, then yes. I fully concede that a psion outclasses a wizard who applies silent and still to all of his spells, but most things do. If you pick out the exact set of advantages that psions have - and suppressing manifestations is one of them - then sure, psions are better than wizards at doing that. I don't think that anyone would argue that there are zero things that a psion does better than a wizard.

A class can be better than another class at an area without being hilariously overpowered. A fighter and a monk fill generally similar roles. The fact that a fighter would have to spend tons of character options to be faster than a monk doesn't mean that I'm banning monks from my table for making the fighter useless.

One thing I'm happy to concede is that psions benefits even more from a 15-minute adventuring day than conventional casters.

Free bonus tip to people without experience with the psionics system but who wish to make it sound unbalanced: check out the metapsionic feats. It's easy to make all kinds of really nutty-sounding claims with those bad boys in the mix.

Yes, but your Scorching Rays, Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Chain Lightnings and other low level damaging spells (or save-or-suck spells) will hit for lols and giggles on any CR 17-20 due to DCs and resistances.

Low level spells will succeed only on a natural 1 roll on most respectable monsters.
The magic system makes most low level spells useless in high level gameplay. In psionics, most powers can be augmented and made viable at high levels.
From a strategical point of view, will you cast a 4th level Enervation for 1d4 levels drain (that might be stopped by technical stuff like Globes of Invulnerability)... or start right off the bat with the big psionic guns (and keep on using them until depleted) that hit for 20d10 untyped damage / 40d6+X area of effect energy damage / Will for instant death or Xd6 damage / 1d4+1 per 2 points area of effect negative levels / other powers that turn the tide of battle in a single manifestation ?

Using psionic-magic transparency (the default of the psionic rules) augmenting a low level power does not change the level of the power. So, a 1st-4th level power, even one that a psion spends 20 points on, is stopped dead cold by a globe of invulnerability. That includes a pretty large majority of those energy-based powers.

Master Arminas

see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.

Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.

P.S.: Your average lvl20 psion can cast Reality Revision (psionic Wish/Miracle) 27 times per day. Your average cleric/wizard can do that about 5 times. With greater technical limitations like verbal/somatic components and being identified on sight. GG!

Egads! Your average psion can spend 17 power points 27 times per day! That is 459 power points. Base power points for the psion class (3.5) are 343 at 20th level. If he has a 32 Intelligence, he gets 110 bonus PP, putting him at 453. Hmmm. We still aren't there. And quite frankly, having a 32 Int (in 3.5!) is kind of a stretch.

If he started with an 18 Int, put all five of his level ups into it, paid out the butt for a +5 inherent modifier, and had a +6 stat booster, he could conceivably have had a 34. But having a starting 18 in 3.5 wasn't certain by any means, AND the people I play with didn't usually invest in Tomes and Manuals that heavily.

And remember, each use of reality revision cost the psion 5,000 experience points. So, yes, he could manifest this power twenty-six (26) times per day, if he were willing to blow 130,000 experience points. Hmmmmmm? It was 3.5, so at most, a 20th level psion could only have 210,000 XP. Using all of that would drop him clear down to 13th level. BUT HE CAN'T. You can't spend XP that would drop you a level. So, if he was 1 point shy of 21st level, he could manifest THREE uses of reality revision and remain a 20th level character.

Not seeing the brokeness here.

Master Arminas

First off, I would use magic in sci-fi, psionics in fantasy, and both in either.

I don't like 3.5 Psionics because its big selling point was the spell point system and some psuedo science and new age terms thrown in for flavor. I did find the Wilder and improvement over Psion and Psychic Warrior but the only class I actually liked was the Soul Knife. Why should I car about a class that's big selling point is a different spellcasting system when I could just hack the system so that all the D&D classes can use spell points and still have character?

Also the races didn't do anything for me either and were designed specifically for psionics, which made them more attractive to do than say a Gnome Wilder.

As for Dreamscarred Press, their book seemed mostly like a update of 3.5 Psionics. I would have rather that they put more of their own ideas in. I bought it based on hype and was disappointed. I would much rather see Paizo do their own version of psionics.

In order to cast Dominate Person across a ballroom without any obvious spellcasting requires an Int 20 enchanter — a wizard specialized in mind magic — a 7th-level spell slot (5th plus one each Silent and Still spell), which means he will be at least of 13th level. The enchanter can cast that modified spell twice a day.

A telepath psion can do the same by spending 7 power points and making a DC 19 concentration check on Mind Control, a check which he will make 100% of the time at 13th level with an Int of 20. At that level and intelligence, he has enough power points to manifest this power 25 times a day.

I'm sure some psionics fan will come along and use pure white-room combat examples concentrated on blasting to explain how the systems are balanced, really. But it's been understood for a whole decade that the power of casters in 3.x does not lie in blasting.

Few things.

1)I see no reason why the wizard would have to be an Enchanter.
2)Metamagic rods, man.
3)Psionic abilities have displays, which means when he manifests Mind Control everyone in the vicinity "hears" the mental display. Not exactly hidden as you'd like us to think.
4)Yes, a Telepath is better at mind control than a wizard. Psionics have to have SOME niche.

Personally I wish that regular magic functioned the same way and I think I'm not alone in that desire.

Unearthed Arcana had a spell point system if I remember correctly, but it's not as well thought out as power points were. If spells could be augmented like powers, I would probably try it out.

Aranna wrote:

and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities.

It might just be me, but how is having low-level abilities stay relevant a bad thing?

It's not. It's great, and XPH Psionics is an exceptional system that allows for precisely that. However, that does look too good to some people compared to normal slotted magic.

It is better, from a versatility standpoint, but that's not a reason to ban it IMO. Personally I wish that regular magic functioned the same way and I think I'm not alone in that desire.

I am not familiar with Dreamscarred's work. My biggest issues with Psionics in the systems I am familiar with is that they made a Psion able to use any sort of magic they wanted from healing to blasting, they made it easier to use via power points, and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities. In other words it was broken when compared to the built in magic system. I even tested my theory once with a group that enjoyed optimizing and power gaming. I opened up psionics for use and every one at the table everyone made a psi powered character. If you decide to use them you may as well throw away all the other classes in the game. Not saying it wouldn't be fun as a one shot, but I would miss all the other classes long term. So I wouldn't recommend they make any psionic rules official. Best to let third parties play around with them.

You know that psions are restricted in the number of powers known: 36 over 20 levels. Psychic warriors only get 20 over 20 levels. A Wizard gets 38 free spells from 2nd level onwards (not counting his starting 1st level spells and cantrips). He can add more to his spell book by scribing. A Sorcerer gets 43 over 20 levels (not including cantrips).

Psion's got to make choices. Yes, they have blasting, healing, utility, charm, summoning, and buff powers on their list--but they don't have enough powers known slots for all of them.

Psionic powers do not automatically scale with levels gained. You get a 3rd level power that does 5d6; it always does 5d6 unless you spend more power points (and you can only spend power points equal to or less than your manifester level on a single power). Yes, a 20th level psion can do 20d12 (with a will save to negate) with a 1st level power (mind thrust), but it costs him 20 power points to do that, with a 9th level power costing a base 17. That means a psion burns through his power points fast.

Admittedly, I don't like that aspect of the psionics (3.5 or DSP) as written, which I why I am trying to change the nature of psionics in my rewrite (see a post above if you are interested).

Psionics have never replaced arcane or divine users in my game, even though they are allowed. Part of that reason is that there is NOTHING in the game even remotely as versatile as a Wizard. Clerics and druids are the closest, but they are second-tier. Believe me, once the novelty of the class wears off, most of your players will switch back.

Master Arminas