Ummm... what? Don't be either. Rysky was simply pointing out that your assessment that certain classes "cannot make any use of them" is hyperbole at best. It was a valid point. There's no need to disparage him.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Not every spell has to be worth the spell value.
This. Not all spells are created equal. That's just the nature of the game.
I actually DO agree with you, Sinistrad, that this spell does seem to be far less useful than it should be for no reason other than that it hasn't kept pace with newer content. However, that doesn't really make it any different from the multitudes of other spells that are also either useless, or at least extremely situational. Wizards have more than enough utility already without needing to rely on this particular spell. (That being said, I've also FAQ'd.)
There's the shadowdancer, a prestige class that I was once very infatuated with. It seems very underpowered to me now, but it seems to be exactly what you're looking for if you're willing to wait until level 9:
Core Rulebook wrote:
Shadow Call (Sp)
At 4th level, a shadowdancer can create creatures and effects out of raw shadow. This ability functions as shadow conjuration, using the shadowdancer’s level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 4th level, plus one additional time per day for every two levels attained beyond 4th (2/day at 6th level, 3/day at 8th level, and 4/day at 10th level). Upon reaching 10th level, this ability functions as greater shadow conjuration. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based.
There's also the spell "shadow conjuration" that this ability is based off of, which is a fourth level wizard/sorcerer or bard spell.
Mithral agile plate at level 3? How do you plan to afford that?
Yeah, sorry, it's the breastplate at 4400gp. I'm basing my estimation of WBL on this guy's post: link to post. I still don't expect to be able to get it until mid level 3 though.
avr wrote:
You're not going to be able to afford a 750 gp darkleaf cloth whip at level 1 either.
I'd have to wait until mid level 1 (my character is actually already at that point, but I'm allowed to rebuild her before she reaches level 2). Shouldn't it only be 375 gp though? It's cost is per pound, and if it's made of darkleaf it will only weigh 1 lb. In any case, it may not matter; I'll probably spend prestige points on it, so it would cost the same either way.
Edit: I've done some more searching, and I found a mithral specific FAQ that would seem to support using the pre-material weight value. Also, since I'm now probably going human, I'll have a little more strength to spare, so the darkleaf may be unnecessary.
Your other suggestions are great, thank you!
Gisher wrote:
Natural Finesse and Shifting Mind are 3rd party. Definitely not PFS legal.
Argh... I should've known it was too good to be true. I was really excited that kitsune worked so well, too. Guess I'm rolling human.
I've been working on this build for a couple of days now, altered from a concept I've held onto for years. I've always wanted to try a whip/controller build, but it always seemed far too feat intensive to really be effective. I found a suggestion recently to try warpriest, which I hadn't looked at before, and it seems like I might have finally found a viable way to make this a reality. The idea is to have a 15 ft reach/trip fortuitous weapon that threatens 10 ft at lvl 5 (possibly further, see Gear) and 5+ AOOs, so she'll have excellent control of enemy movement in addition to being a decent DPS fighter. She'll also have several options for swift action self-buffing capabilities, along with other spellcasting utility.
I'm looking for any kind of critique really. Will this work? Is everything PFS legal? How useful will it actually end up being in practice? Is there anything I've overlooked that might be a problem (or bonuses I missed)? Are there any other feats that would work really well with this? How truly awesome is this build?
Thank you in advance for any suggestions you have! (Or compliments.) I look forward to reading them.
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Evelyn the Whippista (for PFS play, planned to level 6)
STR (6): -2 DEX (18): +4 CON (14): +2 INT (10): +0 WIS (15): +2 CHA (12): +1
Relevant Traits:
Tomb Raider (PFS): +1 bonus on Perception and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, Perception as class skill
Inspired: 1x/day, free action, roll twice, take better result on a skill check or ability check
(Racial) Low-Light Vision: see twice as far in low light
Natural Finesse: gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at lvl 1
Gregarious: after successful use of diplomacy, target takes -2 penalty to resist any Charisma-based skill checks for next 24 hours
Shifting Mind: A kitsune’s shapeshifting abilities make him resistant to mental attacks. The kitsune gains a +2 bonus on Will saves. Additionally, once per day the kitsune can roll twice when making a Will save and use the better result. He must choose to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.
I'm also considering Deific Obedience (see below) and Additional Traits (also see below). I've already looked into serpent lash, improved trip/disarm, and combat patrol, and I personally don't feel like they're worth it.
Gear:
Originally my character will have a whip and hide armor, but will replace it with mithral agile plate at the earliest opportunity. Second will probably be a Belt of Incredible Dexterity. Then a +1 Fortuitous whip. Beyond that, in no particular order: Ring of Spell Knowledge I for storing the Long Arm spell (reach +5),Ring of Protection, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor.
Note that I will probably not be getting a handy haversack. It will bring me too close to incurring medium load penalties on my character even after I get the mithral plate, and I will be playing with a sibling each time onto whom I can offload any extra weight. The only other use I have for strength is swim and climb, so I'd like to keep it as low as possible (I may drop it to five, see below).
Stats at level 1:
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Speed 30 ft w/ armor; Init +4; AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 dex)
HP 10 (1d8+2); Fort +4; Ref +4; Will +6 (+2 and roll twice 1x/day from racial trait);
CMB -2 (+5 trip w/ whip, +7 disarm w/ whip); CMD 12 (-2 str, +4 dex)
Melee whip, AB +5, 1d6+4 dmg, 15 ft reach (AB +1 weapon focus, +4 dex; dmg from sacred weapon, +4 dex)
Trained Skills Diplomacy +5 (additional +2 after successful use), Perception +7, Spellcraft +4
Special
Spellcasting, 3 orisons & 2 prepared lvl 1 spells, DC 13
Blessings, 3x/day
Charm Blessing: Touch, lasts 1 minute, functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks an opponent, the effect ends with respect to only that opponent.
Luck Blessing: Touch, target rolls any one ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check twice and take the better result. Once 1 minute passes, the effect ends.
*Note that until level 3, I will be unable to do damage vs armored units, and will be focusing mainly on tripping, disarming, buffing/spellcasting, and blessing.
At level 2 I receive Fervor: 3x/day, swift action cast self buffs (divine favor, magic weapon give +1 AB/+1 dmg each)
Sacred Weapon/Sacred Armor give extra enhancement bonuses as swift actions at later levels
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I also wouldn't mind your opinion on the following:
- Charming Presence (the lvl 1 charm blessing) states that I can "touch an ally" and bestow a special sanctuary spell. Can I target myself as well?
- I really want to be a 'face' character, or at least the best one possible without conceding my other utility. Thus, I'm considering dropping STR to 5 and bumping CHA to 14. Thanks to weapon finesse and slashing grace, and the sibling who's willing to carry my extra crap (or I could just drop it in combat), the only thing I really need STR for is swim, climb, and carrying armor/weapon/magic items. I could just barely scrape by without encumbering myself at 5 STR with leather armor and a darkleaf whip. The difference is -1 AC (until I get mithral agile plate at level 3), and +1 to all CHA skills. Plus I get the thrill of living dangerously, which is almost enough incentive by itself. What'd'ya think? Great idea, right?
- As part of the above desire to be a 'face' character, I'm also considering the deific obedience feat, which for me means +4 on all charisma checks on a person that "could be sexually attracted to me". (Plus spell-like ability options at lvl 12 like suggestion 1x/day or divine favor 1x/day. That would be seeker status in PFS though, and I'm not sure how that works.) Worth it?
- Is the Fate's Favored trait worth using a feat to get and use with stuff like Jingasa of Good Fortune and the Divine Favor spell? (I'll probably be using Divine Favor a lot.)
To best insure that your question gets the attention it deserves I've flagged your post to be moved over to the Rules Questions Forum.
Thank you!
Hmm wrote:
It's still worth looking at this lovely archetype, even without that particular hex.
Honestly, after thinking about it more, I think you're right. The flexibility alone makes it worth it, and the Life and Lore Spirits especially are pretty good (even without the extra wizard spells). Plus, I mean it's ten dollars, and it supports Pathfinder.
Based on y'alls' input so far, I'm not expecting the GM to rule it my way, but I think I'm going to go for the archetype, and if a GM does rule it my way, that's cool too.
I've got a question about the Spirit Guide Archetype for the Oracle.
The archetype:
Spirit Guide Archetype
Class Skills
A spirit guide gains all Knowledge skills as class skills. This replaces the bonus class skills gained from the oracle's mystery.
Bonded Spirit (Su)
At 3rd level, a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman's wandering spirit class feature (see page 37). She must make this selection each day when she refreshes her spells. A spirit guide cannot bond with a spirit that is incompatible with her alignment, ethos, or mystery (GM's discretion).
A spirit guide gains one hex of her choice from the list of hexes available from that spirit. She uses her oracle level as her shaman level and her Charisma score instead of Wisdom for the purpose of determining its effects.
At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit's spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only of spell levels she can cast. At 7th level, she gains the spirit ability of her current bonded spirit. [At 15th level, she gains the greater spirit ability of her current bonded spirit.]
This ability replaces the revelations gained at 3rd, 7th, [and 15th] levels.
The spirit I'm going for is Lore, which has this hex:
Arcane Enlightenment (Su):
The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
I'll be paying pathfinder society for the first time, and I don't want to buy the book just for this ability and have it not work. The only problem that could possibly exist that I can see is from the text "add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list... to the list of shaman spells she can prepare." Technically, oracles don't prepare spells, they have spells known, so I would assume they would simply be counted as spells known. I would also assume that because I would have to re-pick the Spirit each day, I would re-choose the spells that I want on a given day as well.
I can't rely on the GM simply telling me, because I can't expect the same person reach time. My question is this: Can I count on my GM to read this the same way? For those who are GMs, how would you rule it?
BadBird, I would love a look at sword fu and whatever other suggestions you have. If you could direct me to stuff about that, it would be much appreciated. Thanks for the suggestions everyone!
Here's my build for a monk so far. I'm looking for any advice on places I need to shore it up and ideas on how to make it better. (Also feel free to check my math. Adding all if these modifiers reminds me if doing taxes. Never was my strongest suit.)
Evelyn the Inebriated
Human Monk (Drunken Master & Qinggong Archetypes)
STR 13 (+1) DEX 13 (+1) CON 16 (+3) INT 10 (0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 9 (-1)
(Using a 15 point buy)
Favored class bonus +1 Ki/4 levels
Traits:
Inspired: (1×/day), roll twice on a skill check, take better result
Quain Martial Artist: +1 damage to all unarmed attacks
Class Abilities:
Level 1: Flurry of Blows
Stunning Fist
Unarmed Strike
AC Bonus
Level 2: Evasion
Level 3: Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Drunken Ki (dm)
Level 4: Ki Pool
Barkskin (qinggong)
Level 5: Drunken Strength (dm)
Feather Step (qinggong)
Level 7: Wholeness of Body
Level 8: retrain Feather Step into Dragon's Breath (qinggong)
Level 9: Improved Evasion
Level 10: retrain Wholeness of Body into Ki Leech (qinggong)
Level 11: Drunken Courage (dm)
Level 12: Abundant Step
Level 13: Drunken Resilience (dm)
Level 15: Ki Shout (qinggong)
Level 17: Quivering Palm (qinggong)
Wholeness of Body or Diamond Body (qinggong)
Level 19: Firewater Breath (dm)
Level 20: Perfect Self
In order bought:
Belt of Mighty Con (by level 3, for fast drinker feat), 4k belt
Amulet of Mighty Fists (merciful), 5k neck
Monk's Robe, 13k body
Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor, 24k slotless
Stats by level 5: (+1 STR @ level 4, +2 CON w/ belt)
I expect to have a total AB of 2 (which seems pretty good to me, considering I'm using flurry and fighting defensively) and a grand total of 1d8+1d6+3 nonlethal damage with three attacks/round (by spending Ki) plus stunned and shaken effects each round (Stunning Fist & Enforcer). I should have an AC of around 21 after Barkskin, +4 AC with an ally caster using wand of mage armor, +4 AC if spending 1 Ki, and an additional +4 AC against one attack per round (19 touch AC, 16 flat footed w/o mage armor). About 43 HP (training up to max 60 HP during downtime). Saving throws: fort 8, reflex 5 (plus evasion), will 6. CMB 7, CMD 19.
I plan at level 12 to retrain Crane Riposte, Deep Drinker, and Enforcer into the dimensional feats during any downtime in town, so that at level 12 I can make 5 attacks (8 with Medusa`s Wrath and 1 Ki) on any combination of creatures within sight (flanking w/ myself using D. Savant, shaken effects on all via Enforcer). Barroom Brawler temporarily gives me D. Savant, Blind Fight, Elemental Fist, Perfect Strike, Lunge, Punishing Kick, Hammer the Gap, or another feat that I can customize to the combat (not to mention meshes perfectly with my bar-frequenting character). Other features include a massive and constantly replenishing Ki Pool (Drunken Ki and Ki Leech), three AoE attacks at levels 8, 15, & 19 with scaling damage, and I can basically deflect one melee and one ranged attack per round.
My main worry is AB - I've tried to optimize AC and damage potential without conceding my AB, and the idea is that I should throw out enough attacks in a round that some of them are bound to hit and do decent damage. I've only ever played a bard and a rogue before, and that as a newbie, so I'm not used to being effective in combat at all (Heh, perhaps I shouldn't have started with a monk then. :P I only found out about the general disdain for monks after I fell in love with them, and I fancy I've done at least a half decent job at making it a viable dps/tank.) Any advice would be much appreciated!
You're in luck, if you like this idea. I finished creating my Drunken Master archetype Monk just today, I'm actually on the forums to get feedback on it. Spent weeks trying to optimize it, you're welcome to use it or modify it. Don't know if it's what you're looking for though, because she sure as heck isn't a oneshot, but you could mix it up and roleplay a guy who can't hold his liquor. You'd probably want the drunkenness to set in only after combat though (drunken master gains special combat powers from drinking alcohol).
Sorry it's so long. New to the forums, haven't figured out how to hide text yet.
Evelyn the Inebriated
Human Monk (Drunken Master & Qinggong Archetypes)
STR 13 (+1) DEX 13 (+1) CON 16 (+3) INT 10 (0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 9 (-1)
Traits
Inspired: (1×/day), roll twice on a skill check, take better result
Quain Martial Artist: +1 damage to all unarmed attacks
Class Abilities
Level 1: Flurry of Blows
Stunning Fist
Unarmed Strike
AC Bonus
Level 2: Evasion
Level 3: Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Drunken Ki (dm)
Level 4: Ki Pool
Barkskin (qinggong)
Level 5: Drunken Strength (dm)
Feather Step (qinggong)
Level 7: Wholeness of Body
Level 8: retrain Feather Step into Dragon's Breath (qinggong)
Level 9: Improved Evasion
Level 11: Drunken Courage (dm)
Level 12: Abundant Step
Level 13: Drunken Resilience (dm)
Level 15: Ki Shout (qinggong)
Level 17: Quivering Palm (qinggong)
Diamond Body (qinggong)
Level 19: Firewater Breath (dm)
Level 20: Perfect Self
Feats
Level 1: Dodge (monk)
Crane Style
Power Attack (human)
Level 2: Deflect Arrows (monk)
Level 3: Fast Drinker
Level 5: Crane Wing
Level 6: Combat Reflexes (monk)
Level 7: Barroom Brawler
Level 9: Crane Riposte
Level 10: Medusa's Wrath (monk)
Level 11: Deep Drinker
Level 13: Dimensional Agility
Level 14: Improved Critical (monk)
Level 15: Dimensional Assault
Level 18: Improved Trip (monk)
Level 17: Dimensional Dervish
Level 19: Hammer the Gap
(I plan to retrain some feats at level 12 if practical, so I can get dimensional dervish earlier, re-selecting those replaced feats later.)
Must-Have Magic Items:
Belt of Mighty Con (by level 3 to get fast drinker feat), 4k belt
Amulet of Mighty Fists (merciful), 5k neck
Monk's Robe, 13k body
Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor, 24k slotless
Possibly Sipping Jacket
