Silver Dragon

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Goblin Squad Member. Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 3,196 posts. No reviews. 29 lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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I have never in my 30 years of playing DnD given the rulebook to a new player and said, “Make a character.” One always learned from an experienced player.

The rulebook has always been a reference book, first. Now I do think there needs to be a way to bring in the new player, but making a reference book, into something like the Beginner Box, while a nice idea, is one goal too many methinks.


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Well said, Jeff.


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Then there is the grandfather of modern gamer types, the Bartle Test. I also suggest checking on Koster’s Theory of Fun book(his website is a treasure trove of game theory btw).


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Thank you for sharing Endz!! I look forward to this list every year :)


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Yep! Agreed. Thankfully we have them now, and if I wasn't playing virtually all of the time, I would probably print them out and put them in my hardcopy of the ACG *grins*


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Basically, I consider Legendary Games' PF supplements to be part of the Core rules.


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bugleyman wrote:

I can see making the case that a given class feat might really belong in the general feat pool. But the implicit argument being made here -- something that wasn't "class-locked" in 1E becoming so in 2E is inherently problematic -- is specious.

The system is class-based for a reason.

Finally, "locked" is a bit of an overstatement given the class dedication feats.

Pretty much what I was thinking.


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Davor wrote:
To the question: "Why should I make the move to PF2?", the answer is: You shouldn't. The game isn't even out yet. Heck, they just started their open playtest! If you're interested in influencing development and providing feedback on the current state of the game, then you should give it a shot, but I wouldn't hard switch to a new system that isn't even finished yet.

Exactly what I was thinking.


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Thanks for reasonable first impression, B. Paizo's livelihood depends on getting this right, so I feel pretty confident that they will do what they need to do to find the sweet spot.

Side note, given some of the posts in these forums, perhaps Paizo should alienate some of them. *coughs*


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Just received mine in Boston! I have to say, this is a great looking product and it is "just" the Playtest! Wow! Big time kudos!


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Marco Massoudi wrote:

Vic Wertz, you are incredible!

I hope you get to live a hundred years in the best possible health.

There are not many people who handle issues like this in such a great manner - and that on a free weekend too.

If i'll ever meet you, i'll buy you a drink. :-)

My thanks to all the other people involved too (like the guys handing out the store credit and the people who made sure that the downloads worked so well and such).

Gen Con is always a tense time and i fear next year will be no exception.

The good thing is, the playtest wasn't only a test about the rules, but also about the shipping of the (physical) rules, so when PF 2.0 ships in august 2019, the process should hopefully run more smoothly.

Well said, Marco! I COMPLETELY agree, and will gladly join in buying drinks for Mr. Wertz.


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Cool!


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To be fair, this is a playtest document and is far from a finished and polished product like the PF Beginning Box.

Still, there is value in the general feedback.


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bookrat wrote:

Heck no.

Let's players build their PCs.

I'll just throw a number that works on my monsters without having to ensure it adheres to some forumla. So long as the numbers I assign are within tolerance of the power level of the PCs, it'll all work out.

If there's a chart of what numbers work with what levels best and the math is all in the background, all the better. Makes my life easier and I can focus more on the story and less on the math.

Exactly.


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Dmw,

Despite some of your initial reaction, I hope you are in it for the long hail. Your approach to analysis has been valuable to the process, and I think it has the potential to make the ruleset better. Thanks.


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Kudos indeed!!


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Gorbacz wrote:
Lots of numbers. No female nipples.

THAT'S IT!!! I QUIT PAIZO!!


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Just wanted to pop in and say the download was VERY fast!


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Just a quick thought magnuskn, I'm thinking the idea of "nerf" really only works in virtue of the system itself. So, I suppose you are viewing the idea of "nerf" here according to PF1 (a ten year old system). Once you have a chance to play IN the system, my sense is that it will feel different.

Just thinking out loud, as it were.


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Salut!


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Excited!


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Thank you for the head's up! I can imagine this is quite an anxious time for all of you! Thank you for the great customer service and the gift!


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Thanks for the update! The navigation menus are an improvement. Methinks, the web team will not be getting sleep over the next 72 hours :) Good luck, and may you have plenty of coffee and snacks.


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Charlaquin wrote:
What I don’t understand is why it’s so important to so many folks to have an archetype, seemingly just to have it. In my view, the point of Archetypes is to allow you to further customize your character by trading in base class abilities for some other abilities. But, like, you can just do that without an Archetype now. Every class has that modularity already built in, and Archetype is now ultimately just a keyword meaning “Class Feat any Class can take.” Whether the example is Pirate, or Samurai, or Gladiator, or whatever else, you don’t need the Archetype of the same name to express that concept. The only reason to dedicate Class Feats to an Archetype is if that Archetype’s Feats better suit the character you want to play than your base Class Feats.

That is more or less how I’ve been thinking as well with this system.


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Chaotic_Blues wrote:
I can't say that I'm a fan of this idea. It feels like it's pandering too much to power gamers.

Funny I had the exact opposite reaction *chuckles* In all my years of playing multi-classing has typically caused more trouble than it was worth. Typically those in the party that didn’t multi-class felt their value diminished in the face of multi-classed characters with the sudden power boost and versatility.

I am looking this new approach. Looks like it may curb some of the issues I have seen, at the same time allow for quite a bit of diversity.


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Looks good to me. Again I am liking the modularity. With the separate pools of feats, I can see this working well.


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Gorbacz wrote:
I plan on playtesting Age of Worms using 4e rules and I hope Paizo will take my feedback very seriously and include my name in final credits.

My life would be less without regular consumption of The Bag's wit. Thank you.


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I dig what I am seeing. Tons of flavor built in with the Orders, and I can see how that design space will be able to extend, which is very cool. A part of me, wanted you to simply fold the shapeshifter into the druid ... full on, but perhaps an archetype will do that.

Looking forward to building a druid!


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I disagree.
You can disagree all you want. I have played 4th ed with mediocre GMs who used the table to make the game less fun than it otherwise would have been.

To be fair, a “mediocre” GM is going to make any type of ruleset “less fun”.


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Unicore wrote:

I have missed a couple of pages of posts here, but I am confused as to why people think that the flexible DC chart was designed around creating DCs around the party’s level and not the level of the situation’s creator/intended difficulty? Is the issue the column names? When I read this post, It read to me: here is a flexible chart so you can figure out what the most difficult DC effect a certain person can make and a couple of less difficult options, and you, as GM, can decide the level they invested into it.

I guess one tricky situation for some folks is “what level is a lava field?” But set DCs for every conceivable challenge a party might face are making that decision for a GM, and I am ok with those kind of situations having more built in flexibility

That is how I read it.


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Awesome! Thank you again for sharing! I truly appreciate the care and respect you show in your gaming. A great example of an RPG party. Keep on, keepin' on!


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I appreciate the ranges for DC in a table reference. I can see this being quite useful. Will definitely need it on my GM screen!


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Voss wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I feel like Paizo has learned NOTHING from 4e and I am very disappointed that you have decided to go this route. This will get a gut reaction that is strongly negative. People will not see how the game is actually trying to work and are the DC's not only going to be reviled as arbitrary, but you are going to do a poor job of teaching new GMs how to create DC's as they will simply do the lazy option and go to this table.

I'm honestly not following you. They did it the right way (and not the 4e way) by having static DCs that don't advance. Yes, there is a table for reference... that isn't a bad thing.

Your 1' increments for jumping aren't appropriate for levels in any way at all, just better jump checks (and training).

Absolutely nothing will stop folks from being lazy, but providing guidelines, a table, and reference points for things that don't magically scale (and therefor make leveling pointless) is absolutely the right way to approach this. It lets them ground the DCs and provide a frame of reference alongside the raw numbers (which are also useful to have).

I actually feel a lot better about PF2 for seeing this approach in print.

@Voss, I don't often find myself agreeing with things you say on the forums, but I am finding myself agreeing with these points.


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Marco Massoudi wrote:

@Logan Bonner

You mention the "Pathfinder Playtest Bestiary" - when is that coming out and why wasn't it mentioned somewhere before?

I am under the impression that Doomsday Dawn has it's own monster stats, as do the Pathfinder Society adventures 01-04 and wasn't expecting a seperate Bestiary book for the playtest...

Thank you for your time.

Marco, I believe the Bestiary was mentioned the first day the playtest was mentioned. See the playtest page.


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Steve,

Thank you for bringing up something that no one has really been focusing on in all of the talk about rules.

I think these questions are important, but in all honesty, I wonder if there was anything we could say that would give insight that 10 years of hard data wouldn't already give?

I'm not saying this in a negative way or anything, just thinking about it.

I do hope, in fact, that they offer surveys on this topic. I just am being realistic about how much perspective these answers would offer compared to the data. Would be interesting to see how the population of survey respondents answered versus the data of the last 10 years.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Thank you for bringing it up!


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Interesting take, and I am glad to see the design impetus to give Bard a more defined role.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
edduardco wrote:

If it is not possible to research rare spells, does that mean that research and development is no longer allowed?

How those rare and unique spells came to be? Were they spontaneously generated somewhere? Or does it mean R&D is something that only NPCs can do because reasons?

So if a player has an idea for a spell they want to create and they have the chops to pull this off, we can work together to come up with the rules for the spell (per rules for this when they exist).

If a spell already exists in a book somewhere, and it's marked as "rare" I would require the character to have some idea that the spell actually exists and what it does before they can research it. Spells which have been sealed in some Runelord's vault for several thousand years are spells that a character has no reason to be aware of before cracking said vault.

If a player read about a rare spell in a book and wants it for their character, they can let me know and I will try to work it in somewhere. It's not fundamentally different from when the fighter says "I'm looking for magic fauchards".

So if a player has an idea for a spell they can research it, but if it is already printed they need to justify why they can research it?

If I have an idea then that can be treated as my character inspiration, but if I read it somewhere it can't? what about a spell I read about in another game? or an effect I see in a film? does my character have to justify that too?

The general answer to you questions is - Ask your DM.

The more specific answer I would provide is, does it make sense for your character to know about it? If so, great, let's work out how the research will look and how that will contribute to the game.


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JRutterbush wrote:
I did my pre-order through Amazon directly, and I haven't received anything about the order being charged, and no charges have been made to my card. Will my delivery be delayed since I went through Amazon instead of the Paizo website?

I would think you would want to ask Amazon support.


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gwynfrid wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
gwynfrid wrote:
This is one of those ideas that are unexciting at first glance, and, on second thought, seem so obviously necessary that the question becomes, why didn't we think of that ages ago? Which is another way of saying it's genius in its simplicity.

Personally I feel a decent number of us did something of varying degrees like this before, which is what puzzles me to see it actually formlized. Did this really need to be written down? I guess it did but eh, just weird to see.

A lot of the systems coming down the pipes are things I can't easily ignore or have to work hard to fix for my games. This? Meh. I don't see it having an impact on games I run.

You're saying this as an experienced GM. There's also a decent number of beginner GMs that don't have the time or expertise to do this organically. Even for me as a fairly seasoned GM, I find this mechanic very convenient as a shortcut for party creation, then leveling. Instead of listing a whole bunch of books that are accepted / banned in my game, I can just say, for example: You get unlimited access to Common options, and up to 2 Uncommon ones provided your backstory justifies them in some way; more will become available during the course of the campaign. This saves me quite a bit of work (and debate time, too, with certain types of players).

Most importantly, it's forward-looking: It covers not only the present books, but the ones that will be published during the course of the game.

Bingo. gwynfrid said it perfectly.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

A lot of people, and probably the majority of more experienced players, like to plan their builds out in advance. It certainly makes for a more effective character to do so. This system is going to make that hugely frustrating and complicated for such players if a ton of stuff is now suddenly locked behind GM Fiat by being listed as uncommon.

First, DnD has always been, at its core, GM fiat. Everything is GM fiat.

That aside, everyone will have access to all of the same material, so there would be nothing holding back the planning of a character. If something seems to holding back a character, just ask your GM and they will be able to guide you on what is allowed in their campaign.

I think it will be much easier, if a GM says, “use common as the baseline, and these few uncommon things that make sense for the campaign.” Bingo, yoi are
Good to go. Anything else and you discuss with the GM.


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Dragon78 wrote:
Personally as a DM I would prefer to be the one to choose if something is common, rare, etc.

Nothing stopping you from doing that with this particular feature. It is always up to the DM no matter what is in a book.

I just see this as a huge timesaver. I can also imagine that there may be times where, given my campaign, a different designation is required, but that is as it should be and always has been. I can imagibe, as blog hinted at, that there will be all sorts of creative designations with this system to fit different campaign atyles.


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edduardco wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
edduardco wrote:
What about Research? There will be a Downtime option to Research Spells and Formulas similar to Crafting items? And if yes, would a PC able to Research Rare Spells and Formulas?

With the way rare is defined, I'd probably guess "no." Rare stuff seems to require explicit interaction with the GM, rather than being something you can do on your own as part of a general rule.

And to be fair, I personally kinda like that. After all, it lessens how special a rare spell is if any wizard can spend a week in the library and just happen to perfectly recreate the secret spell of an ancient runelord which has been lost for ages...

This is roughly accurate. Now, if you found a few rare scribbled notes that weren't the whole lost spell but enough to begin the process of research? That's a whole different animal!
This is exactly what I feared from this, I don't like systems that rely on GM fiat.

Then you are playijg the wrong game. DnD has ALWAYS depended on GM fiat. ALWAYS. With that said, different GMs may handle that resposibility differently.


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Patrick McGrath wrote:
This feels like a codification, possibly over-codification, of what is common sense / GM fiat. OK...I guess.

In a certain sense I think you are correct. But I look at the extensibility of this codification. In the years ahead we will see many books with many options, this codifications assists me as the GM, to more easily adjusdicate available options. In some cases I will scan all of the options, in other cases maybe just a certain category. Either way, it is, potentially, a huge time saver for me as the resident DM.


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Kaemy wrote:
Talking about monsters rarity, I would personally really appreciate if the Monster Entries in the books included the Rarity, used Knowledges for identifying them, and their DCs. How is that not a thing?

I have been wishing for this, forever!


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Wultram wrote:
Seems decent enough. Though there could have been a lot more meat to this blog post, how hard would have it been to give a good amount of examples. That being said my major concern is the return of. "Oh yeah this npc totally gets to do this thing, and no you can't learn it." Now just masked as rarity.

You act as if they is inherently a negative thing. It isn’t. There are some(maybe many thibgs) that an NPC knows that a PC will never be able to know. I could see a great many things taking a lifetime to learn, or many years and access to great libraries, etc.

I guess I just don’t even get this comment.


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As the resident DM, YES! 100% YES! I appreciate that this is being baked in right from the beginning. I would imagine every DM already does something like this, and I see this as
being a HUGE help in facilitating the preferred style of campaign.


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I like the embracing of Bloodlines, very cool! Also, evolutions!!


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Ultra-excited to see the email! I cannot believe we are so close to the beginning of the Playtest.


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graystone wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
PFS
You do know that lots of people play the game and aren't people you play with in PFS right?

You and Diego beat me to it. Thank you for voicing this. PFS is not PFRPG. PFS has its own specific “houserules” in order to make its style of play work. We should not be using PFS play as the measuring stick. It is cool for what it is, but it can always “houserules” the system to make it work.

Let’s make a great new edition and then worry about what is needed to tweak for PFS play.


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Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

What if PCs want to jam the pit door to walk across?

The lid wasn't built to support their weight, so they would still fall, though it would probably break the lid at that point and leave it exposed like if they had removed it.

That seems fine as an off the cuff ruling, but nothing in the trap description indicates that. And indeed, that the door is 'making' a reaction to open and dump them implies it can their support their weight for some amount of time.

Also not included: a minimum weight to set it off (because properly paranoid adventurers will test the limits of that sort of thing), or how to deal with it once 'disabled,' ie, opened: still a big open pit, which is still a hazard. And yeah. Not responding to non creatures seems like an oversight. For one thing, it makes 10' poles useless.

------

Are you complaining that they added some extra detail, but you want to see more? Most traps I have seen, and those that I gave a cursory glance at on the PRD, didn’t include a minimum weight to set it off. Just seems a bit over the top response. I guess if they don’t

Include a page of minutia for each trap, then they just haven’t done this bew edition its due??

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