I do like the comment earlier about having generic ancestry feats to cut down on repeated feats (such as darkvision or flight) and just have a list of these generic feats with the level they are available to that particular ancestry.
I too feel that some of these feats don't seem to match the power level of SF vs PF, given the early flight expectations etc. It would have been nice to see one of the really strange ancestries rather than these two relatively normal ones, but ce la vie.
Ah, I was wondering if/when new Lost Omens books would be released in special editions. At least I won't have to wait for a year after release to get the special editions for the new books.
Neat. I have a time travelling adventure that spans Avistan and parts of the other continents nearby and have been thinking about altering it to not use Golarion stuff, but now I won't have to alter that so much.
Having designed an ancestry with four arms, I just ran with it like starfinder where you can have more things ready, but you still only have the 3 actions to actually do anything.
When I heard about this, I imagined something that was able to gain some form of monsters abilities, even if only for a short time (void adaptation, starflight, trample, etc).
After reading it just seemed like a complicated mess that didn't really have a strong idea of what it was about. I agree with some of the points above on this. I just wanted to be able to grow wings, extra arms and so on.
I would suspect it would not include any changes from the AP as this was intended to come out at the same time or thereabouts and they have only update source books with the edition change so far (at least as far as I am aware).
My 'ancestries' I've made for ghouls and vampires have rules for both a versatile heritage for someone 'born' or starting as one. The other way is an archetype for those that become undead later on.
Sounds interesting! Would you happen to have a link for them?
Not to derail things I won't include a link, but if you look for Liber Genus by me in the 3rd party section here there will be a link to it. Just the ghoul for now, the vampire is the next one I will be releasing once I take a second pass at the feats and set it all up properly.
My 'ancestries' I've made for ghouls and vampires have rules for both a versatile heritage for someone 'born' or starting as one. The other way is an archetype for those that become undead later on.
For spontaneous I believe One of the Js mentioned in a reddit post that yes you can use higher slots to cast lower level spells without heightening etc.
I have a feeling that the author didn’t realise that ghost touch is only melee in PF2 unlike PF1 and figured it would work for both ranged and melee. Personally I would just allow it, no real harm in the end.
Axiomite
This seventh installment brings the mathematical axiomites to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 3 heritages focusing on particular rigid professions as well as 12 ancestry feats and 1 magical item.
The Planeswalkers. A book about the planes giving some more in-depth information about some of the larger planes and a few of the rarer demiplnes. Can include rules about underwater combat, aerial combat, exploring bizarre locations, dealing with various ‘outsiders’ and so on.
Classes:
Kineticist - fairly obvious
Arcanist - had some aspects that related to creating weird planar rifts and so, so can build upon that.
Souleater - consuming souls or part thereof to absorb some of their powers
Well, there hasn’t been any mechanical differences between sizes to the same degree as in PF1 - no bonuses to stealth, AC increases/decreases etc, just reach differences.
I'm making playable ancestries for some of the intelligent monsters that you may like to play as. I'm intending on doing those that Paizo would be unlikely to make (he he, I started making a Pixie/Sprite/Grigg ancestry then Paizo announced they would make their own, grr). So far I've made 6 that are available on DriveThruRPG for your pleasure.
Medusa
This first installment brings the ever lovely medusae to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 2 heritages focusing on poisons and the snake-covered head that typifies medusae as well as 11 ancestry feats and one magic item.
Sahuagin
This second installment brings the ferocious sahuagin to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 3 heritages focusing on their underwater skill and mutations represented by those iwth extra arms and spines along their back as well as 12 ancestry feats, one precious material armour and one weapon.
Nymph
This third installment brings the hauntingly beautiful nymphs to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 3 heritages focusing on three of these fey (dryads, lampads and naiads) as well as 10 ancestry feats and one magic item.
Archon
This fourth installment brings the lawful archons to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 4 heritages focusing on their virtues such as justice and courage as well as 12 ancestry feats.
Werecreature
This fith installment brings the cursed werecreatures to the table, with rules on how to create a character as a versatile ancestry as well as an archetype anyone can take. Incorporating 1 versatile heritage as well as 6 feats shared between the ancestry and archetype, 2 focus spells and a ritual.
Serpentfolk
This sixth installment brings the secretive serpentfolk to the table, with rules on how to create a character as an ancestry. Incorporating 3 heritages focusing on mental or physical prowess as well as 15 ancestry feats and 2 magical items.
There will be more to come, with the specifics depending on what I like and what others may want to see.
I have forcefields active constantly and only drain charges once hit and begin regenerating the temp HP. Otherwise it never gets used in my experience.
I ran my players through a mech combat last week. They were level 8 and I wanted a single pilot mech for each of them. Using the build rules (see my other thread for my thoughts on the process) I could not make 5 tier 8 mechs for my players (there are 5 of them) with the points allowance, so I just gave them 160 MP to make a tier 8 mech for each of them. My players were a technomancer, operative, mystic and an envoy. I put them up against the CR 12 AHAV as that is within the increased capabilities of mechs according to the rules.
Base Speed: 30’, fly 60’ (average); Strength: +4; Operators: 1
Lower Limbs: Agile Biped; Upper Limbs: Assault Arms; Power Core: Dynamo mk2
Plasma-Shock Circuits (Aux):
Systems Jammer (Aux):
Unbreakable Armour: +1 KAC, Fort
Reinforced Frame: Base HP +5, HP advanced +1
Lower Limbs: Fast Biped; Upper Limbs: Tough Arms; Power Core: Eternal mk3
Teleporter (Aux):
Thrusters (Aux):
EMP Cannon (Aux): target EAC, Fort DC: 19
Enhanced Shields: x2, +16 SP
Reinforced Frame: Base HP +5, HP advanced +1
Attack Bonus: +9 + BAB/Piloting ranks
Laser Rifle (lvl 8, frame)
Spear (lvl 8, upper)
Due to the story I was running the initial plan was for all 4 mechs to me remotely piloted, but the technomancer wanted to be in the field as he could then use the remote operation spell to control another mech if needed. The spell seemed like it could and should do so, so I allowed them to do that (not that they ended up doing it during the fight).
I started the fight 1000' away from the AHAV as it was breaking out of the ground where it had laid dormant and they were approaching it. This is where we come to the first point.
1. Weapon capacity seems pointless
Since most of the guns have a capacity of 10 with 2 reloads, a lot of my players decided to just take pot shots from that extreme distance. They figured that since they had so much ammo it was worth it to fire with such a poor chance of hitting. Even with the odd full attack, none of the mechs ran out of their first magazine. Saying that, that has been my experience with normal combat, but considering this appears to be for the odd usage like ship combat, it seems odd. Maybe just allow infinite attacks and only the special attacks have a limited fire like missiles/torpedoes in ship combat.
So, everyone continued moving up. The operative was in the sharpwing, so was double moving constantly to get into melee range. The rest were just moving and then shooting at the AHAV. It was firing at them and got some good hits in, taking out shields. However once it got through the shields, it didn't seem capable of doing a lot of damage after the 4 hardness.
2. PCs didn't appear to be close to being destroyed
A couple of PCs used the shield regen action to get more shields back, but as the GM, I felt that I wasn't really doing enough to truly threaten the mechs. Granted I had 5 tier 8 mechs vs a CR 12 creature and maybe this is just needing to fiddle creature I put against them. Near the end I did have my AHAV grapple the sharpwing mech just to change things up from just shooting and the players got worried, but realistically even succeeding the second time and having them swallowed and having some damage didn't really do much.
So, the players moved around, took shots and some used their special abilities. Dual strike was used several times to get lots of attacks off and the EMP cannon on the charger was used a couple of times. Since their enemy was a creature and not a mech, but was a construct I had to quickly make up some rules for its impact considering there was nothing in the playtest rules (gave it a -2 attack for the weapon EMP effect).
3. Rules for mech effects against creatures
There are several mech specific rulings in weapons/abilities that seem like they should have an impact against construct creatures (and maybe others) but technically would not impact them because they are not mechs. I suggest these are either added with each ability, or a rough guide elsewhere as to what effects they may have. Home games it can be ruled by the GM but if this is used in SFS then specific rulings will need to be made anyway.
The technomancer wanted to use one of his teleport abilities to get inside the AHAV and do stuff to it from within. I allowed it since he is a spathinae and he started to mess with it using his spells and engineering/computers checks to give it penalties similar to the critical damage table for mechs. Afterwards we discussed how some spells might interact with mechs.
4. Spells and mechs
Mechs are vehicles and so spells that target vehicles can do so to mechs (this has already been covered elsewhere with the example of the spell that completely disables a mech for a minute). Some things brought up were if you were able to use supercharge weapon to make your gun do more damage, especially useful in a multi-person mech. Since some if not most guns appear to be built into the mech, that seemed reasonable, but something to consider. Transfer charge was also brought up, to switch charges from one energy weapon to another energy weapon, getting extra reloads for a specific gun. If ammo was removed as above, then that wouldn't matter. But could it also be used for power points or shield points? Presumably they are holding a charge, so could you move them around between mechs? And then teleport. We used it to get inside the AHAV, but could you do so to get inside an enemy mech? Is there sufficient room? Something like Pacific Rim has masses of room to teleport in, while gundam style there would be much less. I guess getting into GM decisions there, but again something to consider.
So, the PCs destroy the AHAV and win the fight. Afterwards, the players said their characters had little impact on the fight.
5. Character abilities have no impact on mech combat
A bit hyperbole there since BAB/pilot skill has an impact, but putting it this way: I had a new player join that session and came to build his character while we had the fight. I had him join anyway since he could put 8 ranks in piloting and now had everything on his character sheet he needed to play as a mech. This has been mentioned elsewhere here before but nothing of their character mechanics wise had an impact. You could say that for ship combat, but there are a few abilities that interact directly and a few that do so indirectly. I presume there will be similar class abilities or modifications of existing abilities in the final run, but right now it is basically "Throw away your character sheet, here is a new one to use."
Which leads onto my final point:
6. Mech combat doesn't feel special
Yes we have cool abilities and interesting creation stuff, but when it comes down to the combat it just feels like normal combat, except not playing as your character. There doesn't seem that much difference between this and giving all your players power armour and the proficiency to use it, except players can use their own abilities in power armour. Maybe having facing would make it feel different enough, with features that fitted into that would make it feel a separate type of combat like in ship combat, although maybe on a square grid to make it different from that.
So it seemed to be enjoyed and worth having, and I will probably use it again in my own game, but it definitely seems to be lacking something to make it special.
I made 4 mechs for my starfinder group to play with this weekend. Going through the process of making these mechs I had a few thoughts, some of which I've seen here already.
I made my 4 mechs to be different from each other and to be single pilot mechs (I can give stats later when I have my sheet with them on). I did intend on a 2 seater but I got burned out designing 4 in a row.
1. Mech Points and distribution
My players are level 8. That gives them 120 MP each. For these purposes I wanted each to have their own mech, so that leaves each with a Tier 6 mech. Mechs supposedly give the user a 3 level boost for CR and fights (according to the rules, although that does mention for mechs with a tier equal to the players level), which means their fighting ability is not that much better than without their mechs (supposedly). I understand that I can merge the points for a bigger multi seat mech, but that wasn't my purpose here.
I ended up building each mech as a tier 8 mech. Without massive in depth analysis, my personal feeling here is to just allow players to build a mech with a tier equal to their level and give each MP as per a mech of that level. If they wish to be able to use multiple people in one mech, give them 1/4 - 1/2 of the individual mech points to account for this.
2. HP progression
There has been mention of it elsewhere here, but just adding for completion. There are two parts. First, calculating HP was a bit complicated. Increasing the amount of HP you get for each level geometrically means it is a drawn out process to work out the HP when creating a mech at higher levels. There is no simple Y x tier. Its not hard (I used a spreadsheet to do it quickly) but it is annoying.
Second, HP Advancement/Hit Point Progression. Two terms for the same thing. One from frames the other from limbs. Rename both to one or the other.
3. Flight vs Recon frames
As others have mentioned, recon is pretty much straight up better. Aux slots (to me at least) appear much more useful than frame slots.
4. Limbs
Lower limbs are good. I had no real issues with them. Upper limbs were not too bad. A couple of points linked to points below, mostly costs of some weapons and being able to get extra upper limbs through an aux slot.
5. Power Cores
Until I see play with these, the numbers and differences are a bit esoteric. However I did notice that the special power cores didn't really enthuse me. The aeon core was the most interesting, but the others were meh. But others may like them I suppose.
6. Weapons
First main issue I had. I was making mechs with different limbs and I wanted my flight one to be gundam like with a sword and shield. I was going with powerful arms to get the strength boost for the melee, until I realised that for whatever reason the only shield required 2 slots. That meant I had to go with the only upper limb with 3 slots.
Next up, again something that has been mentioned, there is no generic melee attack for mechs. For some of mine I added a hammerfist just in case. However it would seem more elegant to allow mechs to have a generic slam attack. This also leads to most melee weapons having low damage. I feel this is because they add strength to damage where guns do not. Again without in depth analysis I can't comment specifically, but it seems like this was mostly because of special options each has.
Thirdly, I do like the idea of varying weapon costs based on the level of their weapon which is independent of that of the mech. No weapon used extreme damage, although I imagine this is just because this is the playtest.
In general the weapons seemed reasonably interesting and a mixed selection of abilities, although since I was planning on a single enemy encounter I focused more on those types of weapon.
7. Aux slots
Interesting and I can see their utility in the future. I'm seeing them as part expansion bay, part extra systems from starships. For those who would want 4 arms etc, I can see this being a good spot to add that option in. However, it seems that not all the frames have unique options, either due to this being the playtest or because nothing came to mind. This does mean that certain frames become more enticing with these slots.
So in general, I enjoy the mech building rules but there are a few spots that seem unnecessarily complicated. I will return with feedback after my players have had their fight.
Interesting, but personally I tend to dislike books for a single character, especially to write in - seems like sacrilege to do so. Plus, a new character then requires a new book to be bought.
You could have an inverse volley trait where the gun has -2 to hit beyond the first range increment. From my admittedly small knowledge of these era guns, they were pretty inaccurate I believe.
For the crit specialisation, maybe something along the lines of deafened or stunned or similar to account for the surprise and noise guns make.
Personally I prefer messageboards to discord. Its great for connecting with friends to chat, but to track discussions and so on it is a massive nightmare.
Per gaining loot while returning items, maybe relics could be used here? Items that increase in power as they level up, but being powered by a deity or other powerful figure or some such. Still getting the 'new' magical item paradigm, without actually necessarily getting more items.
Could tie into the returning artefacts to return the celestial lock to full power, which also powers up these items that have been bequeathed to the players to help out.
I have made a cursory glance through the copyright stuff at the end of the books and specific monster names haven't been PI, just place names like Golarian and Varisia, or specific NPC names. I could be wrong, but that has been my impression so far.
Of course with the Mezlan, I'm wondering if I should wait until its in print for PF2 or do it earlier considering it was in Bestiary 6 for PF.
Well, I've made my first two ancestries for Medusas and Sahuagins and will hopefully be visible on DriveThruRPG soonish. The Axiomite should be ok namewise that I have planned. I am also thinking of a Mezlan and that is also a Paizo only monster but again I'm thinking the name should be fine.
Trying to explain the types of gods they might worship without actually naming them can get tricky.
We fought the ooze in Plaguestone. After realising we were struggling to damage it, we closed the door and set up a trap involving large cauldrons in the previous room, putting a dead body within to lure it in and drop one on top of the other with glue to seal it. Then we rolled it into the mudpit found previously.
Hmm, a grig as a player ancestry huh. I had made a design for sprites with grig and pixie as heritages, thinking that Paizo would never make a creature like that an ancestry. Will be cool to play as one of them methinks.
I’ve made a few monstrous races into PC options (medusa, axiomite, archon, nymph, Sauvignon/sea devil) and the difficulty comes in making the ancestry feats. Making sufficient to give choices while also being of a similar power curve and trying to match the race abilities from the bestiary entry is a tricky thing.
You could also look at the Paizo run adventures on YouTube (Oblivion Oath and Knights of Everflame) to see how Jason Bulhman runs his games of PF2 with their expectation of rests after encounters. From what I remember most of the time they had for at least one if not a few 10 min breaks before moving on.
