Erasmus

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Pathfinder Modules Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte 629 posts (4,550 including aliases). 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 29 Organized Play characters. 13 aliases.


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The Exchange

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We are pretty early yet but....does it seem to anyone else that auto-confirming criticals are adding a wildly swingy amount of damage to the game?

It really feels to me like the flow of any given battle is a lot less predictable and a lot more likely to go sideways. Enemies intended to present a challenge crumble under the weight of rogue crits (is it intentional that SA damage now doubles on crits?) and speedbump creatures like centipedes now can pose a life-threatening challenge. Seems like it will be hard to present a predictable level of challenge.

What's other peoples experience here?

The Exchange

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I agree with this.

I realize it makes it a bit easier to engage in things like social combats or chases but even just in prepping for the game I am finding the idea of having to be engaging with a subsystem at all times to be exhausting.

I do think this is an area where rules have been added that nobody asked for that make the game run more clumsily.

The Exchange

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D20 system is frankly way too swingy to NOT overload with bonuses.

Crit failures/successes just exacerbates what is already a mathematically poor chassis.

The Exchange

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WatersLethe wrote:

One thing I'm curious about, is why there was such a big push to get more damage dice rather than boosting static modifiers? Is rolling handfuls of dice for every melee attack really that important?

I kind of feel like they could have off-loaded a lot of the potency rune damage into proficiency. In fact, I wouldn't mind if it all came from proficiency and you only had to worry about neat effects on magic weapons and armor.

Either way, if damage increased with static modifiers it would be much easier to have different sources contribute without exploding the number of dice and damage.

They've taken a lot of d20s out of players hands (a number of playtest GMs literally pre rolled a very largr number of our skill checks) so I suspect they wanted players to get the satisfaction of rollibg large numbers of dice somewhere.

The Exchange

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I'm not wild about this honestly.

It feels more strait jackety than I would like compared to the free wheeling multiclassing of PF1.

It 'fixes' MCing for spellcaster but completely ruins it for martials.

Mostly it just doesn't feel like multiclassing. It does sort of feel like archetypes I guess.

I hate having to basically choose between multi classing and archetyping. I love being able to do it all.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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I am always ALWAYS hyped to go explore the Mwangi

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

Its not very strongly suggested at all by the normal course of the adventure. You have to hear rumors of the place being haunted (not guaranteed) and/or decide the evil presence is undead and then independently decide to consult some priests.

I didnt give a gold penalty either.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I also did not count the talk with Eylara against their time for similar reasons.

Our table let poor Colson die!

They were so beat up from the Banshee fight (they lost multiple party members to the wail after failing to stop it from getting its wail off) and the fight with the Gardners at half strength after failing to diplomacize their way out of it that they decided to just try to escape.

Even the fight with Citizen Dread at the end was a tactical retreat from the word go, just trying to get away from her.

I had never seen a scenario go quite as sideways as this and having such a brutal encounter first completely shaped the party's approach for everything else.

It was a nice scenario with a great mix of challenges and unlike Salvation comes by its difficulty honestly.

Well done all around.

PS - Maldris is SO dumb.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

That's a tad silly but okay.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I also have a question, what if the players go for the infiltration right away I.e. when its still night.

What do I do with Maldris?

The Exchange

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Oh hey look a caster class that actually functions well finally.

The Exchange

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Could one of those Highdelves be for Core credit?

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

My main issue is that this basically DOES seem to be the intent.

It is exceedingly rare to see a Large or Huge sized weapon that you would want to downscale and also pretty rare to see items that are specifically small sized.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I too am still missing 3 sessions.

I will try to gather what information I can, but I have already done so.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

Gino Melone wrote:

Please contact the Origins Leads with specifics on the tables that weren't the best. The organizers are always interested in knowing areas that need improvement.

I actually already did, and was satisfied with the response.

I am considering going to Gen Con (I do have the days off) but I am loathe to go to a second con in a row without my wife (and she does not have the days off, plus I doubt they still need HQ help).

I may buckle though.

The Exchange

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I am not much of a fan having to spend 2 actions on item usage with fixed effects.

I do find it interesting that we have damage effects mitigated by Fort saves now though

The Exchange

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You REALLY need to simplify these RP expenditure/action expenditure rules for item usage.

These rules otherwise seem really solid but like...I feel like I need to bust out the formal logic rules to find out how to use some of this stuff and that's with a lifetime of experience playing RPGs.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

I had a great time at Origins this year (though it was my least PFS centric con attendance since the early 2010s because I only volunteered to GM enough to get my badge)

I had what I would describe as a pretty lousy time playtesting 2nd edition as the very first thing I did at the con, and had a pretty rotten time playing at the one PFS table I had as a player and consequently devoted more of my time to other hobbies this time around.

I GM'd 3 amazing tables, two with same set of 6 who had clearly come to the con together and had amazing chemistry roleplaying together, cheers to you guys, you really did make my con.

I did make sure to play some starfinder and the special and holy crap that was well done. The atmosphere for the Scoured Stars special was phenomenal and whoever did the overseer role was just stupendous as Luwazi Elsebo. I didn't think I could still be impressed with a special after the multi-table spam of the small cons these last two years but this was pretty above and beyond, excellent work all around.

Sunday morning I was a standby GM and got to play a table of Beyond Halflight path with Gino and his daughter running the game as a tandem and was the perfect sleepy way to end the con after a long 4 day run on little sleep.

Overall pretty good con, see ya in two years (I rotate origins and gen con because money).

The Exchange

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Warped Savant wrote:

Having ran a game where the party used CLW 37 times in a single session (granted, they were down the healer due to him calling in sick) I can honestly say that I'm glad used it so much.

If they hadn't done that they would've all died many times over or would've had to have at least 3 different 15 minute adventuring days.

This is the whole ball game.

The Exchange

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After talking with Ladile, I have decided I will join you!

Due to the fact that my -20 I used for this character was originally a character I tossed together for a Wounded Wisp table I will have to make an alias.

The Exchange

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I know that I personally am holding off on several potential games until I hear back from a couple lotteries and see if a 5-6 CORE table of the special turns up.

The Exchange

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Deadmanwalking wrote:


It's not broken to have to make actual decisions regarding investing resources into healing like you have to into basically every other thing you can invest resources into.

This is where we are disagreeing.

Investing into healing isn't satisfying. It feels punitive to have to dedicate build space to being able to function of a basic level. I see it as EXACTLY the same sort of thing as being forced to devote build space to stat boosts, +x weapons and armor, and save cloaks, all of which was just rightly built into the game and removed. I am honestly not sure why you don't but at least that's a clear point of disagreement.

The Exchange

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Good enough to be the healer on what scale? A 2 hour playtest game with Mark Seifter?

That's hardly enough data, and considering that we only have Mark's word for it....

The Exchange

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Each of those would need to be viable.

Given just how little resonance there is to go around, there really is just one choice unless skill healing is SO GOOD that it renders this entire discussion moot.

Either way, these aren't interesting choices. They just aren't. The whole point of this was to inject more interesting choice into the game in the form of magic items that aren't REQUIRED.

The decision to put downtime healing onto an RP cost scale undermines that entirely and results in what is effectively the same system - you get to own maybe or two interesting character specific items and the rest goes into healing yourself.

This is an easy fix and your insistence that its actually better the broken way boggles my mind.

The Exchange

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It was a worse way to play and I kid you not, this means enough to me that 5e starts to look REALLY attractive in comparison if they really insist on going this cumbersome and utterly pointless route.

This game has PLENTY of choices.

If you can choose to have healing or no healing in between combats thats no choice at all. You are going to choose healing. You keep on asserting its going to open up this magic well of interesting choices when there simply is not any choice involved here.

Its invest in a way to restore HP or die. Its as much a valid choice as building a specialized archer that lacks precise strike in 1e.

The Exchange

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Milo v3 wrote:
Why would you "NEED" to have the best wand money can buy?

Because with resonance cost you are going to want the most bang for your charge.

Like I said, this is the portion of the game that is like least fun and most cumbersome for this entire concept. Just steal resolve from Starfinder or steal 5es short rest system and call it a day.

The Exchange

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
eddv wrote:
It's literally EXACTLY the same. You no longer NEED to buy the big 6 but you will NEED to have the best wand money can buy. This is a 0 difference situation.

No. It's not. If you have sufficient in-party healing, you can skip the aforementioned Wand and have significantly more Gold for other stuff. Having a Cleric or other serious hit-point healer in the party is thus actually useful rather than completely superfluous.

That's a big change. It means that healing, like most other things, is now a matter of tradeoffs, where you can focus different types of resources in different amounts towards it.

Yes it is. The cleric using their channels OUTSIDE combat means they don't have them for use DURING combat.

This is a no difference situation other than that you might get some poor suckers to use their channels to save you a couple of RP at their own expense later.

Healing is not this like Super Fun portion of the game that is in dire need of preservation. Just a necessary one where once upon a time most tables began with trying to bribe someone into playing one because healing was both Not Fun and Necessary. Wands made it possible to get by without that and it was a MASSIVE INCREDIBLE IMPROVEMENT TO THE GAME.

You want us to go back to the dark ages because you thing Mr. Religious Crosses Magoo waving his magic hands to heal everyone is better than using item healing and I just don't get it. At all.

The Exchange

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
eddv wrote:

And this change addresses that how?

All it does is increase the amount of budget the party has to devote to healing. It literally more or less leaves the AMOUNT of healing (i.e. to full or full-ish hp) constant.

The change and difference between something being available for free (or a gold amount so low as to amount to free, which is what Wands of CLW are pretty quickly in PF1) and something being available if you invest a significant chunk of resources into it (which seems to be how PF2 will work) is actually quite large.

The latter is much easier to balance things around.

.

It's literally EXACTLY the same. You no longer NEED to buy the big 6 but you will NEED to have the best wand money can buy. This is a 0 difference situation.

The Exchange

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And this change addresses that how?

All it does is increase the amount of budget the party has to devote to healing. It literally more or less leaves the AMOUNT of healing (i.e. to full or full-ish hp) constant.

The Exchange

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The wand change is a nice benefit of it, as it forces players to not rely on the weakest healing spell in the game for their whole career, and instead requires them to invest in resources appropriate for their level.

I literally do not understand what the virtue of this is.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Given that there is SO much interest and that I would be burning a star, I will bow out

The Exchange

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I think in PF2 you can ABSOLUTLEY dump int/wis with little to no consequences. Wis its just Will Saves (not the end of the world to fail one of those now and again, especially if you go with a class that has strong will save proficiency), perception/init (decently needed but not vital) and clerics/monks needing it for class features. With Rocket Tag being diminished, the VITAL need to go first has been lowered for everyone besides rogues who get a free sneak attack out of the deal ( nd who will likely generally be using stealth for initiative anyway).

Int: Just lowers the number of skills. Not the end of the world if youre partying with a rogue.

Mental stats are INHERENTLY dumpable for non-casters. It's just how it is.

The Exchange

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willuwontu wrote:

Or you know, instead of crying over the loss of clw spam, we could move onto the fact that higher level wands are now affordable (at least they seem to be) and that you should use them instead of a 1st level spell for your whole career to heal up.

A lot of the whining over mandatory healer seems to be out of place.

Given that they seem to have designed the resonance system specifically to eliminate wand spam, it seems odd to say the very least that the solution is 'a small number of hits with a large wand' vs 'a large number of hits with a small wand' I just....dont see the point?

The Exchange

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Reading that wand thread I think the biggest issue is how often people think the game is designed around attrition.

Attrition is not especially fun and only a good concept to use in Moderation. moreover, its not actually a concept paizo even employs in their AP design for the most part. I just ran the first 4 books of Hells Rebels. In that AP, you mostly have single encounter adventuring days until youre tackling the end of book mini dungeons in which time is not usually an actual factor, with the sole exception of the endstage of book 4.

Youre right that nothing was gained by them having cure wands; they could have just rested for 8 hours. The fact that they COULD heal to full hp while proceeding with diminished every other resource meant that they did. It really is basically the sweet spot. Remove easy HP recovery and the desire to play cautiously does amp up. No one wants to lose a character they have shepherded from level 1

Don't like the happy stick? Then give up the ghost that any player is ever going to go into combat at anything lower than max or near-max health. I dont care if you dont like it Jason, that's just the way the game is played, so build it into the system.

The Exchange

The mayor prepares and serves coffee, the same rich brew as berore but she seems troubled and distracted the entire time.

When it rains it pours..
she muses missing the pun in her words entirely.

It is good you have furnished us with supplies. Our cleric tells us that a major storm is breaking off from the Eye of Abendego in defiance of normal weather patterns. For now...you may rest here...or in the foundation of that building your employee has worked on. First light...its all hands on deck. Help us prepare to get smacked by a Typhoon.

The Exchange

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Except its 2 cure spells because you only have 2 resonance to spend on it.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Daedalus rocking a lot of the same suggestions I had been mulling over.

Make the system feel rewarding (and seriously look at Daedalus suggestions for some ways to do that) instead of punitive and I think this becomes a rocker of an idea.

The Exchange

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I do think a lot of the problems here come from a percieved/actual assault on downtime healing and to some extent the 'wand spamming is dumb' mindset that Jason Buhlman shared when this all began.

I think Resonance* is overall a good system in need of some tweaking (wands and staves feel bad at the moment but could potentially be awesome) the place where it gets messy is not even so much consumables as consumable HEALING. Just make it so a 'short rest' restores all hit points. Most adventuring parties are just gonna take 8 hour rests to sleep if you dont anyway so I see it as necessary for avoiding the 15 minute work day and its why people spammed wands in the first place. Just cut out the middle man and eliminate the issue by just cutting the necessity of downtime healing in the first place.

*though for the love of god as hmm and bretl pointed out use a different word that starts with a different letter. This system is basically 3.5s incarnum subsystem on overdrive so maybe borrow that word if its not copywritten)

The Exchange

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:
These whole new rules might take some time to learn properly...
Streamlined Simplicity at it's finest....

The new rules are very game mechanicky. They may be fun or sort of interesting but what they arent are any of the following:

Intuitive
Logical
Simple
Streamlined

Paizo may want to avoid using those words to describe it.

The Exchange

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I would make a comment on this post, but I have already made 6 posts using my cell phone today and lack the RP to use my phone again.

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This is so horribly tempting but i need to make sure I still have a star to burn....

The Exchange

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@Captain Morgan

There are things worth devoting actual book space for and real Archetypes are ABSOLUTELY one of them.

Sure, archetypes took up just a single page in the Starfinder rulebook. They also were complete trash that no one used.

This is not a sufficiently good reason to murder off the most successful concept in 1st ed.

The Exchange

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NorthernDruid hit on what I think is at the heart of this - Archetypes probably seem okay if you're assuming the average character is getting to adventure all the way to level 15 and that all things are equal.

For those of us used to our character really coming together by level 5 or so this is just one more setback. I don't really want to return to the days of 3.5 where everyone pretty much agrees the game is pointless to play at level 1-4 and level 5 is where you start feeling like you're actually playing the game.

The Exchange

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Kalindlara wrote:

I do like this system all right, though as others have said, they're less "archetypes" and more "special feat chains". Looking forward to actual class-altering archetypes in the days to come.

Still, though, looks solid. ^_^

This is the real hotness.

It just feels like they are replacing something really cool with something way less cool and just calling it the same name.

The Exchange

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This feels REALLY underwhelming and also REALLY easy to screw up on the design end, much like the utter failure that is the Starfinder archetype system.

I am getting to the point where I just want them to get rid of this particular version of the class system altogether in favor of full modularity if this is the approach they want.

This just feels like it is trying to be half and half. The result is a system that feels strictly worse than going full modular or full pre-selected.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

Thank you Tonya.

David, I look forward to working with you.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

That would be more believable to me if Ghol-gan Heresy weren't already announced so quickly after Bloodcove Blockade released.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

James Anderson wrote:
Sorry, but I am so done with the Kadoddi set. We already went there and sealed it up. We already messed up the economics so the aspis would stop poking at it. Yet here we are patching up the same problem a third time. It makes it feel like the last two times we were there were pointless.

On the one hand, it IS a little frustrating that it keeps coming undone and that nothing we could have done in Bloodcove Blockade could have shaped this.

On the other hand, ASURENDRA DUDE

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

It may not be Seers of the Drowned City being sanctioned, but honestly I am so exciting about Ghol-Gan Heresy that it doesn't matter.

The Exchange

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Any word at all on if this is ever going to be PFS sanctioned?

I finally bit the bullet and purchased it anyway but I have been on a huge modules kock lately and can firsthand report that the PFS sanctioning slowdown has been disappointing

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