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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber. 1,336 posts (1,428 including aliases). No reviews. 3 lists. 7 wishlists. 2 aliases.


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I guess you don't recognize kidding when you see it. :-(


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CommanderCoyler wrote:

I personally don't think craft should exist at all as a skill. It's a purely downtime activity, so shouldn't ever need to be rolled for or can be easily just rolled into other skills. Same with perform.

Lore should also be just one skill, with the redundant uses (magic lore, specific god lore etc) rolled into their relevant other skills

I suspect that Paizo is trying to make downtime a more integral part of the game — as IMO they should. I do recognize that some players think downtime is wasted time, and that *all* their time should be spent in dungeons killing monsters and gathering treasure. Even as a kid, I would have found that to get pretty boring after a while.


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Ghilteras wrote:
Formulas can't be the gatekeepers because any magic item can be reverse engineered to get the formula.

If the GM allows it.

Ghilteras wrote:
A PC that select the crafting must choose which kind of stuff he/she wants to craft, they cannot just craft everything. It makes no sense. Potions must be separate for instance from swords and armor. Wands and Rings can go together, but not with boots or leather armor or bows.

You seem to be suggesting a change in the rules. You're certainly not stating what is now the case, because any crafter can craft any standard item. Magical items require the Magical Crafting feat, and with that feat, the crafter can make any magical item, so long as he provides for the casting of any spells involved and provides any runes required.

There are specializations for crafting, but that just gives the crafter a circumstantial bonus to crafting those items for which he has the specialization.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
On page 392, it is unclear how many items Gloves of Storing can have stored at once.

Only because you wish they could store more than one item. The real question is what happens when you try to store a second item in the gloves. Does the first one disappear into the void, or fall to the floor, or conk you in the head?

Put it another way: the description says "one thing". If it's not limited to just one, then by the description, you can store an infinite number of items there. I sincerely doubt that was intended.


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I think it boils down to what Rysky thinks "their own Ancestries like the others" means. I suspect it means that there should be no reference and no connection to the human ancestry in the description of the half-elf or half-orc ancestry. Perhaps other than that Rysky doesn't care about the mechanics.

These half-breeds (and others) are not a race, and not an ancestry either, since that's just a different name for the same thing. Rather, they hold aspects of both their ancestries. There are a lot more humans than elves or orcs in Golarion (or in most any frpg setting) so it makes some sense to include them there, but what the hell, if it makes you feel better, list 'em on a separate page. Might increase the cost of the book a bit, but nobody cares about that, right?

Y'ask me, half-elves and half-orcs ought to be a lot more rare than elves and orcs, and those ought to be pretty rare in a predominately human world.


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D&D, if you go back far enough, wasn't a d20 system, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.


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And PF 2 is trying - with good reason - to move away from that.


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"Core to the game for decades".

What game? Not pathfinder, that's only been around for nine years. D&D? Well, pathfinder is not D&D, nor should it be IMO.


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Not sure where to put this, so I put it here.

How does one improve one's proficiency with the various armor types (light, medium, heavy). Fighters get boosts to heavy armor up to master level (at level 17), which also give them medium to expert level, but there don't seem to be any general feats to boost armor proficiency, and even fighters don't seem to go beyond trained with light armor. What's up with that? Did I miss something?


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Raisse wrote:
You're still limited by your spell point pool, and elemental tempest burns 2 points per use.

Good point.


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The old prohibition against armor wearing arcane spellcasters was arbitrary and capricious and existed solely to prevent game imbalance. I'm not sure the current "let 'em wear armor" is going to work out without some other way to balance the spellcasters' power, but you have to start somewhere, and for my money it's better than keeping the old nonsense, which is basically just saying "that's the way it's always been, and that's the way it always will be". Which is not an attitude that Paizo endorses, from what I've seen.


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The DM can control what things a crafter can craft by controlling what formulas the crafter is able to find or buy. That said, tying crafting to lore may have some merit.


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In theory, yes. OTOH, the day's not over yet. :-)


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Xenocrat wrote:
The Elemental Tempest wizard power needs to clarify that it doesn't work with cantrips, which are "spells" cast at your highest level, so they provide a really offensive boost if they work with this.

Powers don't have needs. :-)

An evocation spell (not a cantrip) cast at the caster's highest level would seem to suffer from the same "problem". Do you suggest that Elemental Tempest shouldn't work with those either?

Okay, cantrips are "unlimited use" in that they don't consume a spell slot. Is that the problem?


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Zwordsman wrote:

On the topic of Alchemists.

I do feel they should take a step back from Bombs, and should be allowed to craft many other things using their skills.

Such as.. snares.
Allowing snares and most things via the formula would allow a viable nitch for them. if theyr'e suppose to be the mundane tool user, make it go full tilt on it..

Plus, things like snares and alchemical items are just so expensive they'll never honestly see use. They're listed.. in terms of gold. Some of those items are worth more a quarter or more of the starting funds.
Ranger does boost the.. sorta. not really.. so just.. let the alchemist be the item master. Allow for creating any formula item with the time limit effect. Well not any, like.. it would be squiffy if they could daily make a plate armour that just falls apart at night or something..

Not sure what you're asking for here. Crafting is a signature skill for both alchemists and rangers, and snare crafting is a first level feat available to anyone trained in crafting. As for pricing, all the first level snares cost 2 gp, which is 20 silver, to craft. The formula for a first level snare is 10 sp, hardly "a quarter or more of the starting funds". The things (snares or formulas) that cost that much aren't available to and can't be used by first level characters anyway. The same appears to be true of alchemical items, though I didn't look as closely at those.

Bombs aren't the only things alchemists can make at low levels. There are elixirs too. Do you want mutagens at level one? I think delaying that until level five is a fine idea.

The one thing I would change here is the "revert to the full crafting rules" if you want to pay less than the full price for setting a snare. I can set a snare in one minute if I want to pay full price, otherwise it's going to cost me at least three or four days? That doesn't make sense.


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I would add that falchions, rapiers, and scimitars are somewhat specialized weapons. The falchion is a thick-bladed single edged shortsword; the rapier is a thin bladed shortsword designed for thrusting; the scimitar is a single edged shortsword with a curved blade. Like the sabre, it originally evolved as a weapon for mounted combat. The other swords in the current list are basically "not from around here" - that is, not in the European tradition.


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It seems to me that the morphology problem with swords in PF is created or at least exacerbated by the game's complete disregard for the historical (on earth) evolution of the weapon. Perhaps the nomenclature would be better defined as:

shortsword: A one-handed sword with a blade 2 to 3 feet long, single or double edged, usually with a sharpened point. Designed primarily for slashing, but those with a point can also be used for piercing. Weight 1.5 to 2 lbs.
longsword: A one-handed sword with a blade 3 to 3.5 feet long, usually double edged, often with a sharpened point. Designed primarily for slashing, but those with a point can also be used for piercing. Call it an arming sword if you like. Weight 2.5 to 4 lbs.
bastard sword: A longword with an extended grip, to allow for two-handed use.
greatsword: A two-handed sword with a blade more than 4.5 feet long, possibly as long as the height of the wielder or slightly longer, double edged, possibly with a sharpened point. The hilt will be some 10 or more inches long because the sword requires both hands to use. Weight 4.5 to 7 lbs.

NB: I'm a layman in this area. You experts will probably object to this nomenclature, or at least parts of it, but I'm just trying to make sense of what some people who are probably less concerned than I am with any kind of historical accuracy (<cough>game designers<cough>) have promulgated. And I daresay even the experts don't all agree in this area.

Note that historically, these things evolved, at least on Earth, over a period of several centuries at least, if not millenia.


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Got my book.

<spock>Fascinating.</spock>


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Scythia wrote:
I take it you haven't seen an infrared security camera?

No I haven't. Thanks for the link.


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It does not make sense that a Paladin would get Lay on Hands at level one, and then not be able to use it until level 2. Either that power should not be available at level one, or the "rounded down" text is in error. I vote for the latter.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Darkvision is infinite range now.

That's ridiculous.

Y'ask me, "Vision" is about ambient light bouncing off objects, entering the eye through the pupil, and impacting on the retina, which generates an electrical signal the brain interprets as whatever objects are involved. "Low light vision" just means the critter's retina doesn't need as much light impacting it to generate a viable signal. "Darkvision" means the critter can see in what a human would call the "infrared" part of the light spectrum, so it's a little different, it can see heat (which might be generated by a living creature). Not "black and white" but more "black and red". Note that if everything is at the same ambient temperature, darkvision would not be able to distinguish individual objects from the general background - which could result in a dwarf running full tilt into a stalagmite (or a stalactite if it extends close enough to the floor/ground). Kinda nerfs the ability in some ways, but so what?

Okay, not canon, and Paizo is not likely to adopt it. But... if darkvision sees in black and white, what things show as black and what as white, and why do they show that way?


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"You need… the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items" (under Craft, page 148).
"Many magic armors and weapons are created by etching runes onto them." (under Armor and Weapons, page 377).

So I conclude that a smith who wants to add potency or property runes to a weapon or armor needs to have the magical crafting feat. Izzat right?

I note that Magical Crafting is a 2nd level feat, but it requires Expert Crafting, which afaik isn't available until level 3. Also, Magical Crafting gives you formulas for four common magical items of level 2 or lower. The lowest level for any rune is 4, so this "benefit" is no help. :-( There aren't very many common magical items of level 2 or lower, but I suppose it is what it is.

Expert Handwraps of Might Fists with no runes added are level 2, and the descriptionn says all handwraps have the Magical trait, but are these really magical?

Is there a way to get expert crafting and magical crafting by second level?


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How would a level 10 PC gain legendary rank in Craft? Doesn't that only come in at level 15?


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Draconis381 wrote:
The Basic crafter’s book is only 1 sp.

Yes. the 10 sp (not 5) is for a blank formula book, which you will need for expert and higher level formulas.

Starting out as a trained smith, you need the crafting skill, trained in that skill, the basic crafter's book, and the standard artisan's tools. The cost of the latter two comes to 51 sp, about 1/3 of your starting money.

Blacksmith background gives you two ability boosts, one to strength or intelligence, and the other free. You also get Specialty Crafting (Blacksmithing) which is why you need to be trained in crafting, and you get a plus two circumstance bonus when using that skill to craft "durable metal goods, including metal armor".

You can increase your crafting skill to Expert at level 3, at which time you'll need a set of Expert artisan's tools, which will cost you 200 sp.

You probably also need a repair kit (30 sp) and eventually an expert repair kit (150 sp).


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Darkorin wrote:
In fact, I think everything that is cast with spell points is a power (they really should be renamed power points).

Maybe.


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that's what I meant by "obtained in game".


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A wizard's starting spell book contains 10 cantrips and I think 8 first level spells. As the wizard increases in level, he adds 2 spells of any spell level he can cast. Does that include cantrips? IAC, any spells not added to the book in this way must be obtained somehow in game, or perhaps via a feat. Seems like a waste of a feat, if it can be done, but what do I know?

Am I missing anything?


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I would think that specific rules from the adventure would override the more general rules in the rulebook. OTOH, it's all playtest stuff, so who knows what Paizo intended.


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Got my July sub authorization email on July 12th. My shipment arrived today, 29 days later. Not up to Paizo's usual standard, but with all the other crap going on now I'm okay with it. Besides, I got my pdfs a week or so ago. :-)


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"Powers are a special type of spell that you can learn only through special class features" -- Playtest Rulebook, p. 193.

Channel Life is not a power, as it's not listed in the spell descriptions in chapter seven. It's a Paladin class feat that has a power (Lay On Hands) as a prerequisite. The feat gives the paladin the ability to use spell points to cast a heal spell even without the Spellcasting ability.

At least, that's how I read it.


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sadie wrote:
Monks were some of the most creative people in medieval cultures. Weaving clothes, brewing beer, etc were things that monks and nuns could do in relative isolation and use to support the community. This of course depends what sort of monk you're playing.

"Monk" in the European tradition is a very different animal from the "monk" of the oriental tradition. Which is not to say the latter were not good crafters. They probably were.


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Thanks, Diego.


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I wonder. Did Kwai Chang Caine ever complain about a "feat tax"?


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Just placed this order. Looks like it's going to ship asap, instead of waiting for my August subs shipment. That's fine. The order includes the Paizo exclusive version of Worldscape Volume 2, which I ordered because the non-exclusive version is listed as unavailable. So I'd like to have that non-exclusive version removed from my sidecart, please.


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I get a sense that what some people want here is for all skills to be learnable to the legendary level. There's a way to do: play Harnmaster. :-)


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So I was looking at the alchemist earlier. At first level, an alchemist gains Alchemical Crafting, the prerequisite for which is "trained in Crafting". But the alchemist doesn't need to meet the prerequisite. So apparently it's possible to have an alchemist who is untrained (and so gets a -2 to his craft check) even though Crafting is a signature skill for him. Have I got that right?


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I'm finding it very difficult to find things in this book. :-(


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RafaelBraga wrote:
Monks should be renamed "Goku" in this version.

I might agree if I knew what that meant. :-)


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I think I have it figured out now. Powers are associated with a spell pool, and clerics, druids, monks, paladins, and sorcerers can gain such a pool through either a class ability or a class feat (depending on the class). Once you have the pool and a beginning spell power, other powers are gained through class feats. So it seems that alchemists, barbarians, bards, fighters, rangers, rogues, and wizards don't get powers or a spell pool. Unless there's some other way to get them or I missed it in the class description.

Innate spells come, it says here "typically from your ancestry or a magic item". Haven't checked magic items, and didn't see anything about innate spells in the ancestry chapter. Did I miss it?

I think I was confusing powers and innate spells, and thinking there was a source other than through "special class features" for powers but I see now that's wrong. I think. :-)


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Okay, Lay on Hands is something a paladin might do. Doesn't mention paladins in the description. Advanced Domain? Where is that description? I found the Litanies, but the others don't seem to be in there. They're in the Cleric class description? Oh. The Paladin class description doesn't say so. Very confusing. Also, how do we know that these are the powers the paladin gets, and not others from the spell descriptions? Either I'm missing something obvious, or the folks who wrote this book did.


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Paladins have powers. It says so in the Paladin article. What it doesn't say, unless I missed it, is which powers a paladin has. The article refers the reader to the chapter on spells, and powers are listed in the alphabetical list of spell descriptions in that chapter. However, there's no list of which powers a paladin might get, and some don't seem appropriate to the class. There's also nothing in the powers' descriptions that refers to paladins. Apparently there can be other sources for powers, though I haven't run across any yet. So are the powers described in the spells chapter all available to all paladins, and no one else (unless there is some other source for them somewhere), or have I missed something?


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"It's that way because I say so, now shut up." -- Gary Gygax, on why the D&D magic system works the way it does.

The Shadowrun system has already been mentioned. Here's a couple more:

Harnmaster: every spell is a separate skill whose "mastery level" ranges from a base (usually somewhere around 15-18) up to 100+ that base. Casting, rules wise, involves rolling 1d100 against mastery level. Casting causes fatigue. You can be too tired to cast a spell, which could cause a critical misfire (not a good thing).

Authentic Thaumaturgy: "A spell is a process, not a thing". What process: that of putting yourself in a psychological places that gives you access to your innate psychic abilities, and it is use of those abilities that allows you to cast a spell. Fatigue is again an issue.

In all the above once you learn a spell, you know the spell. None of this "spell slot" business. In Harnmaster, if you don't use a spell, and neglect to study it to refresh your knowledge of it, over time your ability to use it may decrease (your "mastery level" may drop) but you can't completely forget it (barring something unusual happening).

IMNSHO, any of these three is better than what I've seen in D&D or either version of Pathfinder.


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BretI wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Few RPGs I've come across model degrees of language proficiency, however. The idea of a single skill point granting complete mastery of a language always rubbed me the wrong way, but attempts at house ruling an entire new subsystem and tacking it on to languages met with at best mixed success and was abandoned.

Hero System (the rules underlying Champions) used a language chart that showed languages with common roots. It made other languages from the same family easier to learn than completely different ones.

Something like that might be made to work in PF2 if we were given enough resources to purchase multiple languages. I think the UTEML proficiency system could be used as a basis but it would have to use a different resource for languages separate from the current skills.

Ya'll might be interested in the Harnmaster system from Kelestia Games (or Columbia Games, but I like the former version better). Check it out. Everything is a skill, including languages. Some skills are innate (native language, for example), some can be learned just by trying them (using a weapon), some must be taught (casting a spell). "Mastery level" (ML) ranges from a minimum called "skill base" to 100+skill base, and is tested by a d100 roll. Language families are a thing, so learning some languages can be a bit easier if they're related to one you already know. BTW, reading (and writing) a script is a separate skill from speaking the language. You don't master a skill until your ML is more than 70 or so, so if you only know say, French to ML 50, you're by no means fluent.


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James Jacobs wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Have you seen Castle Rock yet?

Yes. Love it!

It being on Hulu was also the spur in my side that I needed to finally get rid of cable TV and switch entirely over to just using internet for my entertainment. And in so doing, saving myself about $160.00 a month in payments to Comcast. WOO HOO!

Congrats. I need to do that myself. Is Comcast your ISP, or do you use another?


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Physician. Or First Aid. Or both.


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There was an interesting little comment in, I think 1632, the first novel in the "Ring of Fire" series. Seems an entire West Virginia town (the whole town, not just the people) was transported back into the middle of the Thirty Years' War (hence the title). Early in the book, they rescue a man and his daughter from some bad guys. Later, he reveals that he speaks fluently and reads (I think it was) eight languages, and doesn't really get how folks from the future only speak and read one.

Magic might skew things a bit, but I suspect a lot of people on Golarion, not just PCs, should be expected to be fluent in several languages (including sign languages).

In another game, there is mention of a mage whose "spell book" was a necklace of small jade figurines that only he could "read". Humans are pretty darned inventive, aren't they?

In second and third grade, and later eleventh and twelfth, I studied French. I've had very little occasion to use it since, but I can still get by in it, thought I'm by no means fluent. Later, in my 30s, I studied Japanese (lived there three years) but I never achieved fluency, and I only remember a few words now. Can't read it at all any more. Point is, study languages early in life, especially if you immerse in them, and you'll be able to pick up several and retain them.


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There is this thing I vaguely remember from high school biology (I'm a physicist/engineer, not a biologist). Something about cross-species mating possibly producing offspring, but not offspring that can reproduce. For example, mules. It's always seemed to me that D&D and its ilk (Pathfinder, for example) kind of hand-waved that away, treating the major PC races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling, orc, gnome) as different species, but allowing cross-species mating between at least human and elf or human and orc. I don't recall any other cross-species (among these races - there are tieflings of course) hybrids. I like the way David Weber handled this in his tales of Bahzell Bahnakson, Paladin of the War God Tomanak: there are five sub-species of human; humans themselves, elves, dwarves, halflings, and Hradani. Since they're all of the same species they can interbreed and produce offspring that can reproduce — though the idea of a halfling-Hradani crossbreed boggles the mind. :-)

Note: I say they can interbreed, but Weber has not, so far as I know, provided any examples of that, so maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, the thought that they're all the same species is what piques my interest.


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Steven Constant wrote:
Charts scare new players, tbh.

I've never understood people like that, or people who 'hate' math, or numbers, or anything that even looks like it might involve math. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. <shrug>


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In humans, at least, the pupil of the eye is invariably black, because it's a hole. Specifically a hole in the iris whose purpose is to allow light into the eye so it will impact the retina, which is how one sees. Assuming eyes work the same way in the other humanoid races, the "elves have multi-colored pupils" thing makes absolutely no sense. OTOH, if elven, or dwarven, or whatever, eyes work differently, then the question becomes "how do they work?" I can't answer that, and Paizo hasn't, to my knowledge.

Edit: I see James has already explained that it's not the pupils that are colored. :-)


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And you can guarantee this because?

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