Dyvynarth's page

I have to believe that Lisa, Ryan, and the team they are assembling have taken a good hard look at the financial realities of creating, publishing, and supporting an MMO. The fact that they've decided to go forward indicates to me that they have a strategy they believe will result in victory, profit, and a seriously awesome game. Do I think the announcement was a bit premature? Yes. But I look forward to seeing their vision in the coming years.

This in a nutshell. Were we a bit premature? By other company's standards, sure. But if we held onto this news much longer, word would have seeped out. We would be talking to people about investing. We would be hiring folks. And word would have gotten out. Rumors and half-truths would have been given free reign. And that is just not how we want to run Paizo. We like to let our customers know what we are up to before the rest of the world does. So we let the cat out of the bag much earlier than other companies would have. We know that. There is a downside (ie. we don't have much to tell or show at this stage). But the alternative was worse in our opinion.

As for all the doomsayers, all I have to say is, "Give us a chance." Nothing is changing at Paizo. We will be making all the same cool products you have come to love. If MMOs aren't your thing, then that is great. Enjoy your regular Pathfinder game. We aren't and can't make an MMO that works for everyone. We know that. We are happy with that.

Also, we are aware of what has come before Goblinworks. We know what has worked and what hasn't. We aren't going to spend bajillions of dollars. We have a plan that is pretty savvy and innovative. As we get further along, we will share that plan. Until then, have some faith. I wouldn't do something stupid and wasteful. Many of the comments I've seen are similar to ones posted after we announced the Pathfinder RPG. That turned out pretty well considering all the doom and gloom.

Pathfinder Online is a baby. Heck, the baby isn't even born yet. It is in its early gestation period. There is a ton of work needed to get it to market. We want you along for the ride and we want to be upfront about it. So take a deep breath and sit back and relax. I think many of you will really like what we have planned. Some of you won't, and that is totally cool also. We can't be all things for all people. Just like the Reaper minis or WizKids minis or even PaizoCon aren't for everyone, so Pathfinder Online won't scratch everyone's itch. For us to be successful, it doesn't have to.

Trust. That is all I am asking for right now. :)

-Lisa

I could care less about the rule set that an MMO follows. They are not the same and you should not aim for it. Pathfinder is a turn-based tabletop RPG. As a rules set for a TTOP RPG, it works quite well. However, a MMO is not a tabletop RPG. The people who think it should work like that do not get the design issues and probably never will.

I already know that the devs know this – but many of the fans here just don’t get it . Persuade your fans as to why – and with patience, the persuadable will be persuaded. However, some of these fans are NOT persuadable under any circumstances. That’s life. Keep selling them books and they will still be your customers, just not your online players. That’s okay. Let ‘em rant, because that isn’t Pathfinder.

I do see, however, a number of things that CAN work and DO feel like "Pathfinder,” to wit:

1 - Class Abilities: Pathfinder has improved upon and developed a number of class abilities that serve to distinguish the class from others. Those abilities should form a tangible aspect of a class design.

For example, we know what Paladins are. A Pathfinder: Online Paladin should have auras; smite evil, and have the ability to confer those benefits to others. Similarly, we know that a Witch has a familiar, can fly, and can cast hexes like misfortune and deep slumber. Alchemists in Pathfinder throw bombs and can use mutagens to increase their stats and body size. While something like a Vancian based arcane bond is not likely to matter in PF: O, Wizards should be able to throw a weapon and have it return to their hands. They should get some sort of metamagic and should be able to craft magic items. They should get a scorching ray and get multiple numbers of them as they advance (never mind what damage they actually do or how often it can be used) Barbarians are all about rage and DR. Gunslingers are all about guns, deeds, and grit, Ninjas can vanish, etc..

Keep the recognizable iconic abilities of classes and make them do similar sorts of things which are somewhat intuitive and recognizable to a player. The underlying math, lethality and so forth is irrelevant. Let the computer game designers of the MMO be computer game designers of an MMO. Nevertheless, some of the iconic powers of a class need to be represented and unique because that’s what fans expect and that’s what keeps up the verisimilitude of the Pathfinder brand.

2 - Look and Feel: Pathfinder has a distinctive art direction to its characters and many of its monsters. Some of that is going to work well in a computer game -- and some of it is not. Cut the stuff that will not work for polycount and animation reasons and do it without remorse.

But when you get right down to it, Pathfinder is Wayne Reynolds' art style. Make that come to life? You are golden in terms of art direction. Fail to deliver it and you dropped the ball and will alienate customers. Sorry – but in many respects it really IS that simple.

Above all, keep the cartoony look to your characters. There are strong benefits to this. On a technical design basis, it reduces polycount. As we move forward in the next five years, PC Gaming threatens to go off a cliff and the desktop will not be the primary platform for this game. Accordingly, anything that reduces graphical overhead and makes it more laptop friendly is good. Any CTO who tells you what the GPU capabilities are of the expected users of this game 4 years from now is making it up. He doesn’t know. That’s an ENORMOUS tech risk, so the engine and art direction has to be HIGHLY scaleable.

If you went for something like the CANVAS engine for your art style? You would not go wrong in terms of artistic impact (tech/economic feasibility is another matter). Apply the CANVAS engine's style and Wayne Reynolds art and color palettes and tell me you wouldn’t drool to play that game.

On a less technical basis, cartoony designs also serve to make the game look unique. The problem with realistic 3d models , shaders and middleware environmental options all designed to operate within the tech limits of the hardware platform of the day is that it all ends up looking the same, from game to game. Seeing as you are likely to have to use middleware for much of your environmental organic effects, anything that serves to distinguish the look of the game from that produced by others enhances the value. In this case, it also delivers on the expectations of fans – so double down on Wayne Reynolds' iconics and cartoony goblins.

Blizzard made the right call with WoW. Some people hated it and it turned them off -- but you cannot argue with that level of success. I can confirm that there was a significant debate within BioWare as to whether to go cartoony with SW:ToR. BioWare decided to go a little cartoony with their art direction in TOR too -- and it was the right call. Some people complained sure, but some people always complain.

3 - Golarion: At Paizo's current publication rate, it is likely that there will at that time of PF:O's release be more game material written about the world of Golarion than any other fantasy world in the history of RPGs. Even the FR (and that's saying something, damn it).

That is a VAST treasure trove of IP. It's the one thing Paizo brings to the table which it does BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, in or outside of the computer development field. Do not sacrifice this on anybody's sandbox altar. Dance with the girl that brung ya.

That's what a Pathfinder: Online is to me. It's not rolling a 20, it's not Vancian Magic, longswords which do 1d8 or even magic missiles.

Gimme a Witch that hexes with a fox familiar, a chance to interact with the iconic characters which LOOK like Wayne Reynold's art come to life -- all set in a believable slice of Golarion.

That's a Pathfinder MMO to me.

I hereby give Paizo/Goblinworks permission to place the Aberzombie as a hidden boss monster easter egg thing in the game. That may be the closest I'm ever able to get to it.

Thanks for all the great comments in this thread! I'm reading each and every one and a lot of other threads as well.

There have been a lot of questions asked, and I wanted to give you all some background on how we'll be handling communications with the community going forward.

This is a quote from the business plan:

"UNDERPROMISE AND OVERDELIVER

Too many video game projects create a false understanding in the minds of their customers of the game’s design goals and ultimate deliverable by talking about what could be instead of what will be for certain. After players have pictured an ideal in their mind, they can be confronted with a depressing reality when the actual product doesn’t live up to their expectations—and then the game becomes a source of complaints and negativity.

When in doubt, err on the side of silence."

We're going to have a very progressive and open design process with the game and we're going to share a lot of material with the community so you can provide feedback and suggestions. But we're only going to talk about things we have a very high confidence will actually be in the game when it launches or that we can put a firm release date on for an update once we're live.

Right now we're doing 3 very important things: We're finalizing our middleware (the tools that we'll use to build the game and its servers), we're building a team of rockstars to develop the game, and we're putting our funding together so that we won't have to worry about money (excessively) while we build the game.

That first decision will drive a whole lot of other more substantial responses. Until we have a signed contract with our middleware vendor we're not going to talk too much about technology. We have several options on the table and each has its own unique aspects.

For that reason we're not able to say much about the game itself beyond what's on the Goblinworks website. This issue will be finalized fairly quickly and then we'll have a lot more to say about the technology and how the game development will progress.

RyanD

Odd question. (TLDR version: does Paizo intend to retain control over this product, its design and development, it's operation, and its support?)

I've seen behind the curtain over years worth of MMO development. Is the role of Goblinworks that of a development house or that of a publisher, or both?

The context of this question is really about that "publisher" word. I get it that Paizo is a content-creator as well as a publisher with regards to written material. I'm very... concerned... regarding the role of a publisher in this particular title.

In my NDA-laden experience, publishers (of MMORPGs) are dangerous, dangerous organizations. Development houses can be 95% complete on a product and due to turnover in their publisher's staff, forced to redesign the goals, structure, code, assets, and features of the product. There is a reason why so many games end up years late. Hint: it's usually not the coders or the artists.

It's the suits that screw this stuff up.

So I'm asking. I'm begging. Please tell me this "click her to be an investor" thing stands absolutely no risk of this project falling under the control of an outside publisher party.

Paizo's role is is twofold. We're the licensor, which means we ultimately have approval on how our intellectual property can be used. We also have ownership, and that means we have a voice on how Goblinworks is set up and run. Outside investors in Goblinworks will not constitute a majority.

I hope the RPG does not end up suffering from diminished resources (time, money, resources, creativity,etc.) because of the online project. A drop in quality for the RPG will be crippling for the game and Paizo. I think it will be a fine line,even though you have formed a new company.

Good luck!

We're going to be very, very, very, very, very careful about this. One of the reasons we set this up as a completely different company is so we do not drain resources from our tabletop projects, which are doing great.

BUT, lets not be all derogatory towards those who have a somewhat different playstyle preference. From what I've read they will be looking for some balance, weighted a bit on the sandboxy side.

Hear, hear. Since I'm pretty much the poster child, I suspect, for the "carebear" type of player in an MMO... that term tends to raise my hackles.

Personally, I'm hoping there'll be draws for BOTH types of MMO players in this game.

This was predicted in years past...

"Special Abilities

Create Company (Su): With this ability, Lisa can create companies at the blink of an eye. Each company created has the ability once every five years to create a gaming phenomenon as a free action"

From Lisa's profile here:

http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens

It has been five years since the Pathfinder RPG, hasn't it? :)

-Lisa

MRblahface wrote:

One think you said in the Blog post is that you want Investors, But it just so happens that I don't have a spare $100,000 lying around. So would you guys be willing on starting a Kickstarter or something of the sort so most of us could pitch in? Like, If you donate this much you get a shirt, or Donate this much you get (blah) and so on? Like early access to the beta or special in game items?

I'm not in the market for this type of thing, but honestly that seems like something that could be best pursued by starting an independent investment entity which is owned by Paizo fans who pitch in sub-100k amounts... Possibly even before 100k is reached it would make sense to start talking with Paizo if they would be amenable to this group investing (if you reach 100k). If they don't like the idea of a bunch of PRPG fans invested via such a vehicle, all the money would be released to everybody (or more likely, it was just in escrow until it was clear whether the investment could go thru).

We intend to keep the number of shareholders fairly limited, as that makes a lot of things much easier.

However, we *do* have ideas that line up nicely with MRblahface's desires... but you probably won't hear more about that until early next year.

Honestly my reaction is one of very heavy skepticism. What makes Pathfinder good is how well it works out for a tabletop game. I suppose it could also work in a CRPG (ala Neverwinter Nights). However, unless you are somehow going turn based/pause button, too much has to be modified/sacrificed to get it into MMO form. SO much in fact that it resembles the rule-set in only superficial ways. See DDO as a classic example of this.

Also, every MMO has started out with the exact same hype I am hearing here. How players are going to make a difference, shape the world, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before and nobody has really delivered that I know of. While I wish you success in this endeavor, until I hear how exactly you plan on achieving this, I'm keeping both feet firmly on the ground.

That was my exact reaction when first approached about this. I've since changed my opinion. But I realize that MMOs aren't for everyone. Pathfinder will still be here to satisfy those folks who like to game the way we always have. I know that I will be doing both.

-Lisa

Wow, just wow! I was not expecting this.

All I have to say is MMORPGs are the toughest games to pull off well. I hope that you guys break the mold and do something really cool. Completely different than a pen and paper game, completely.

Here's hoping! Very cool news.

We aren't going to follow the path others have trod. We will blaze new frontiers like true Pathfinders do. There will be innovation. There will be coolness. Can't wait!

-Lisa

Hey y'all:

Remember, we are REALLY EARLY in the process. We don't have many answers to your questions. Normally, we wouldn't even announce something like this as early as we have, except we knew that word would leak out. And we are always up front and straight with everybody about what we are doing. Give us a few months to get our funding, hire some folks and have some brainstorms. Then we can perhaps answer a few of your questions.

One thing I do want to make clear. Goblinworks won't have any negative impact on Paizo. Separate company. Separate staffs. Paizo is going to stay focused on what we do best which is making awesome pen and paper RPG products. Goblinworks will focus on the MMO. This is just like our relationship with Reaper or WizKids or any other licensor.

Now if this is successful, it will impact Paizo is a positive way, which is good. But we won't have a lot of skin in the game. Our money is going back into making awesome products for you guys.

I think you guys will be excited about Pathfinder Online. We have some really innovative things in mind. It will feel like Pathfinder.

But we aren't turning away from what got us here. Far from it!

-Lisa

We understand that MMOs (or even video games) aren't for everybody. Rest assured, we'll still be releasing Adventure Paths, hardcover rulebooks, and expanding the world of Golarion for tabletop roleplayers!

Just +1-ing what Liz said. This venture does not mean any sort of slowing to our current publishing operation. In fact, with the successes we've been having, expect plenty more exciting news in 2012.

I'm so relieved I don't have to keep this a secret anymore!

Consider me extremely interested, in both a personal and professional capacity. I would love to lend my cartography skills to the endeavor if needed. :)