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Kaigon the Miscreant

Durngrun Stonebreaker's page

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Furyborn


Threeshades wrote:

So I want to get this right, my lvl 3 Kensai magus can

-As a standard action cast daze and deliver it two-handed with her katana
-As a full round action make a one-handed attack at -2 to hit and cast daze and deliver it with an additional one-handed attack at -2 to hit.

But she can not as a full round action make a two-handed attack with her katana at -2 and cast daze and deliver it with another two-handed attack.

Is that right?

Yes


Quark Blast wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Also, pretty much everything bad has higher chance to happen to low-income people, since a higher income gives you more means to avoid the bad stuff.
Wait, are you saying that pornography is bad stuff? If so, one more for the Destructive Entertainment camp.
You put words into people's mouths almost as well as Peter North puts.... you get the idea.

Is there a point to this red herring?

Or do you just like to obtusely beat up on honest expression of opinions?

Or is it you like the easy pickings of verbally slapping a minor on a public forum?

And people wonder why I'm cynical. Pfft....

No one cares why you're cynical.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
WHY DO YOU HATE WEALTHY MAGICIANS SO MUCH!!!
Because the universe explodes is the PCs go 1GP over the WBL...wait...no it doesn't. Why are people so clingy to this again?
It is for the safety of the group. If you go over WBL for too long some men with a purple golem on their shirts take you away, and you never come back. We are just looking out for your well being. :)

They're coming to take me away?


The paladin is not casting the spell. He is using his lay on hands to revive someone as if the spell had been cast.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM Barcas wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
DM Barcas wrote:

Looks like predictions of "Obama winning the round" were premature.

I'm just glad Bergdahl didn't sign the letter. The administration might claim that that he didn't serve with honor and distinction.

Do you not see a difference between writing a letter to the president and writing a letter to a foreign head of state undermining the president?
The audience was the same for both letters: the American public, seeking to put pressure on the administration.

I'll take that as a "no," I guess.


Just to note: if you don't like Gnomes, you could use Human, Half-Elf/Orc, or Aasimar (with Scion of Humanity) and Racial Heritage.


Bard was by far my favorite class until the Alchemist came along. The great thing about the bard is not only do they do so many things well, but they make everybody else better at what they do.


If you're looking for a sneak that uses magic to increase his sneakiness, may I suggest Saboteur (Alchemist)? It can combine with Vivisectionist for sneak attack abilities.


Khara Thrust wrote:

I wonder if the opposite would work?

FAQ wrote:

No.

Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
If you START with a regular attack of an unarmed strike/armor spike/whatever, the language in the FAQ suggests your hands are free to swing the greatsword as an "off-hand" weapon. Your penalty might be a bit higher and you'd lose the 1.5 damage...

You cannot make an off hand attack with a two-handed weapon as they require a primary hand.


Gauss wrote:
You don't have to answer every question, but quoting someone's questions (Endoralis') and then asking your own without answering his is rude and baiting. It is why nobody responded to your questions. If you won't have common courtesy to respond to someone's questions when you quote them why should they respond to yours?
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
the question was asked; is Channel Energy one ability or multiple abilities. I bolded the section that refer to channel energy abilities (plural)


Was I the only one who thought Sylar had Peter's power and accessed it through serial killing?


Gauss wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
I've never thought of asking questions as being adversarial. I feel as though I've answered questions if not directly then in general. I would say I have at the very least made my position known.

So, you answered Endoralis' questions? Interesting, I only saw you quote his questions (not an answer), post a quote on Sermonic Performance (not an answer), and then post a setup and a question (not an answer). That is not answering his questions. You have done this repeatedly.

You may want to be more specific about your answers, they seem to have gotten lost in your questions.

I would refer you to my last post and also I don't feel I'm required to answer every question to participate in a thread.


Dekalinder wrote:
The solution to all this is that they should stop putting fluff text into items and abilities descriptions. There is always someone that will hung up onto them.

I would say more often people dismiss text as fluff that later gets held up as an actual rule.


Just to point out, in my "baiting" post, the question was asked; is Channel Energy one ability or multiple abilities. I bolded the section that refer to channel energy abilities (plural). You say the cap is to indicate the total math where I might argue it reinforces the idea that you cannot get back what an archetype trades away.

I would offer as further evidence:

Quote:

Monk: Can a qinggong monk take a second archetype if the character doesn't swap out abilities the second archetype requires?

Yes. However, the other archetype takes priority over the various abilities granted at each level, and the character can't delay taking an ability that the other archetype replaces—he must allow the second archetype to replace the standard ability at the standard class level.
For example, the monk of the healing hand archetype (APG) replaces
wholeness of body (7th level)
diamond body (11th level)
quivering palm (15th level)
perfect self (20th level).
A qinggong monk who also wants to take the monk of the healing hand archetype has to let the healing hand archetype replace all four of those abilities at those specific class levels. The qinggong monk is still free to replace any standard monk abilities at the other class levels listed in the qinggong monk archetype (slow fall at 4th, high jump at 5th, and so on), so long as selecting those abilities doesn't interfere with acquiring the healing hand abilities at the correct levels.
Note that if the second archetype replaces a standard monk ability, the character cannot select that replaced ability at a later monk level. For example, the qinggong/healing hand monk can never select wholeness of body, even at a level higher than 7th. In effect, the character has selected wholeness of body at 7th and immediately replaced it with a healing hand ability; as the qinggong archetype only lets you select an ability later if the character "selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability" (which didn't occur), that option is not available for the character.


I've never thought of asking questions as being adversarial. I feel as though I've answered questions if not directly then in general. I would say I have at the very least made my position known.


I think the thread is about using magical knack to qualify for arcane strike but I could be wrong.

As for your question, it depends. Can the caster level from magical knack power arcane strike if it doesn't qualify for the feat requirements? Pure RAW would say yes. You have the feat legally and (I'm assuming) an arcane caster level from magical knack.


Race is protected from discrimination on the federal level. Sexual orientation is not.


I'm a fan of the Socratic method.


Gauss wrote:

Armor Training is built like any other ability. It is a single ability with 4 stages (determined by level). As with any other ability each increase can be traded away.

Archetypes could trade away ability increases for Wild Shape, for Channel Energy, etc. Would trading away an increase for Wild Shape prevent you from increasing it via some other means? No.
Why? Because you still have the ability.

The sash increases the level of Armor Training (treats his level as 4 higher for the purposes of Armor Training). Since the level determines the ability granted you gain anything commensurate with that level.

Dragoons do not progress past level 3 for Armor Training. This is because they have traded away their level 7, 11, and 15 advancements. However, they still have the ability Armor Training, they have only lost the 3 advancements.
This makes them eligible for abilities and items that increase Armor Training.
Thus, with a Sash, they can reach level 7 (4 higher than normal) and thus, as per Armor Training, they gain certain abilities at level 7.

For the third time...

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Endoralis wrote:

Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?

Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.

Quote:


Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?


DM Barcas wrote:

Looks like predictions of "Obama winning the round" were premature.

I'm just glad Bergdahl didn't sign the letter. The administration might claim that that he didn't serve with honor and distinction.

Do you not see a difference between writing a letter to the president and writing a letter to a foreign head of state undermining the president?


9 people marked this as a favorite.

So it's no big deal because you don't belong to any group small enough to be discriminated against without consequences?


tchrman35 wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
So my buddy and I are both 3rd level Fighter(Dragoons). On Level-Up Day he gets to pretend he is four levels higher, I actually get to be four levels higher. He gets an ability that I cannot get?

Well, he doesn't pretend to be four levels higher. He goes to the same class you go to. But the effect of the sash is that he has a deeper (magical) understanding of the materials covered. (If he were to later take off the sash, he would lose that magical understanding.) And yes, he gets an ability that you cannot get, because he has an item that you don't.

If you have a ring of feather-fall, and you both run off the edge of a cliff, he will fall to his death. You will not. You will have an ability he does not have, since you have an item he does not.

edit: "cannot get" is deceptive. You can't get that ability until you buy the sash. But once you have it, you can get and use the ability simply by putting the item on.

Quote:

SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION

Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

Treats his level as 4 higher, not advances Armor Training by four levels.


Gauss wrote:
He can purchase a Sash too. Nothing stopping him.

/facepalm


tchrman35 wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?

Magic :)

Seriously, that's how. Magic. It extends the armor training knowledge you already had magically, rather than through actual training. The fact that the Dragoon will go to a different class on Level-Up day does not negate the Armor Training knowledge he already has, and the sash works on the knowledge he already has.

So my buddy and I are both 3rd level Fighter(Dragoons). On Level-Up Day he gets to pretend he is four levels higher, I actually get to be four levels higher. He gets an ability that I cannot get?


How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?


Gauss wrote:


Durngrun, you have been very frustrating. Even after other people explained it to you you STILL don't understand the debate. You wouldn't respond in a reasonable manner to many of my posts, instead focusing on whatever point you wanted to make. But, I apologize if I came off negatively.

Seven minutes later...

Gauss wrote:
Durngrun, please read our positions again. When you can repeat back what my position means (especially the part in the parenthesis) we can continue.

Yeah, my bad for ignoring that.


Gauss wrote:
Durngrun, *sighs* look, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion.

Then stop with the condescension.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gauss wrote:
Durngrun, everyone else understands what the focus of the debate is about except you. So, I guess I will continue to discuss it with them. I am sorry you don't see it.

Oddly enough, most people seem to agree with me. I'm gonna say you don't understand what the focus of this debate is about. Perhaps if you went back and reread you might be able to understand.


That honestly wasn't even my point. I was saying just because Christianity didn't consider being black as sinful, what if other religions did? Should they be able to discriminate against black people under the guise of freedom of religion? Are you only allowed to discriminate against gays or are Christians the only ones allowed freedom of religion?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Endoralis wrote:

Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?

Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.

Quote:


Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?


It is condesending (as you continue to be) which comes off as arrogant. The discussion is about the item. I stated how I felt the item worked. You said I was wrong. I asked you how you thought the item worked. You are now responding with "I'm not talking about the item." If I failed to understand your argument it is because you decided not to talk about the item at hand while not mentioning you were not talking about the item at hand. When you decide you wish to talk about the item at hand, I will be happy to continue that conversation.


Gauss wrote:

Yes, that is the general topic. But the sticking point, the point we disagree on, is how it applies to the ability. That is the section of focus. Not the sash. The item could be ANY item that adds levels.

How a magic item that raises Armor Training by 4 levels is not in question.
Whether raising Armor Training by 4 levels provides a benefit to a Dragoon IS in question.
In other words, the magic item is irrelevant. I thought you understood that but it appears you don't.

Again just arrogance. It doesn't make you right. I'm talking about the item. The item does not "raise Armour Training by 4 levels." The item treats your level as four levels higher. If you do not understand that I am talking about the item, and what effects the item has, I do not know how else to explain myself.


I'm talking about what benefits a Fighter(Dragoon) gets from wearing a Sash of the War Champion. I do not know how to have that discussion without talking about the item. If you are not referring to the Sash and what benefits it provides then I'm not sure what you are trying to add to the discussion.


Gauss wrote:
Durngrun, please read our positions again. When you can repeat back what my position means (especially the part in the parenthesis) we can continue.

If you don't wish to continue the discussion, then don't. I don't feel I have to prove myself worthy enough for you to merit your continued presence in this discussion.


Gauss wrote:

And that is why you don't understand my position. You keep focusing on the Sash rather the difference between our positions regarding Armor Training. That is the difference, not the sash. The sash is the item, the debate is the Armor Training.

Your position: No amount of levels will ever give a Dragoon Armor Training 2 because he traded it out.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as it's own special ability.)

My position: The Dragoon traded out the advancement in Armor Training that is called "Armor Training 2". That does not preclude him from acquiring said advancement somewhere else.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as just a name for the level 7 increase in the ability Armor Training.)

If he traded out the advancement why would an item that does not grant the advancement give it back? I don't understand how we can have a discussion about an item without talking about the item. Without the item he clearly does not get the advancement. You say, with the item he does. How is that not related to the item?


Honestly I feel Gauss is the one being rude and dismissive.


I believe I understand your position. I believe you are wrong. I have been trying to explain why I believe you are wrong. You are saying the sash increases your Armour Training by four levels. I feel the item gives you four "virtual levels," for lack of a better term. Take a 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon), add four real or virtual levels, what is his Armour Training ability?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aranna wrote:
littlehewy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
littlehewy wrote:


It's been brought up numerous times, but why is it not okay to discriminate against someone of a different skin colour, but okay to do the same on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identification?

There's a problem with your question.

To a libertarian there is a difference between "Something is ok to do" and "something should be LEGAL to do". It is entirely possible that discrimination is seriously not ok, but that its still not as not ok as government intruding into how people conduct their business.

Let me then restate:

Why should it be illegal to discriminate against someone of a different skin colour, but legal to do the same on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identification?

The religious reasoning is obvious. Nowhere in the Bible does it say being black (or any other race) is being sinful against God. It does actually say that about Gays. I am not saying I agree with refusing gays service. But one of the core principles of the nation is freedom to practice your religion. All this law does is keep that ideal safe. It is a good law. Let public outrage work against the tiny few who would take advantage of the law to actually discriminate. I trust that good will win in the end.

You realize there are other religions than Christianity, right?


Gauss wrote:

I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.

He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.

I feel like you haven't even looked at the magic item in question. It does not advance the Armour Training ability. It treats your level as four levels higher.


Gauss wrote:

Anyhow, we are back to arguing in circles. While he didn't agree at least Chess Pwn put effort into understanding my position. Something that Durngrun has completely ignored.

My stance: It is a single ability with increases at specific levels. The Dragoon does not get those increases normally but can find other ways to do so (other classes that stack, the Sash, whatever). This is similar to other abilities with increases that get swapped out.

You guys apparent stance: It is 4 separate abilities (something the text does not support in any way especially since you have to use RAI rather than RAW to get there).

No, my stance is that the sash treats your level as four levels higher. A 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon) treated four levels higher should have the abilities of a 7th level Fighter(Dragoon). A 7th level Fighter(Dragoon) does not get an increase in his Armour Training ability.

Edit: Your stance seems to be that it is four different abilities for the class but only one ability when it comes to the magic item.


The speed increase from Haste does not stack with Monk's fast movement.


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker, I have already addressed that..it says that RIGHT IN THE ARMOR TRAINING ABILITY. Is that clear enough for you? Read it again. Read the part where it says what you get at level 7.

Your level is 3. It treats your level as 4 levels higher, 7. What does "Armor Training" say happens? Oh teacher, I know!!
You get everything it says you get at level 7.

littlehewy, you are absolutely correct, if Dragoons did not have Armor Training the sash would do nothing for them. Thankfully, they have Armor Training at level 3. The sash can then raise them to level 7. After all, it's right there in the text. Perhaps you should read "Armor Training". I quoted it up-thread.

If you believe it cannot do that, show me where it states that you cannot apply the Sash to the ability that you get as part of your class.

Then a 7th level Dragoon gets the same ability. As you said, you can't have it both ways.


Gauss wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker,

Either "Armor Training 1-4" is an ability that doesn't exist, or it is referencing the existing text. You cannot have it both ways.

If it references the existing text then you must use those rules.
Ie: You have Armor Training, you do not get the corresponding level increase when you get "Armor Training 2" because you never got that.

That does not prevent you from getting the level increase another way.

As a level 7 Dragoon you never acquired the Armor Training 7th level increase. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your Armor Training some other means.

Please show me where the sash "advances" Armour Training. All I see is treat your level as four levels higher.


It does NOT "raise the effective level of that ability." It treats your level as four levels higher. I'm a 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon), add four levels and I'm a 7th level Fighter(Dragoon). What is the normal benefit I would gain from Armour Training at that level?


I cannot find a rogue archetype that trades out sneak attack. Can you point me to one?


Endoralis wrote:

Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?

Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.

Quote:


Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.

I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?


Quote:

Dragoon (Archetype)

These gallant lancers serve in the vanguard of many armies or as knights-errant. They are born leaders and masters of the mounted charge.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dragoon is not proficient with tower shields.

Skilled Rider (Ex): At 1st level, a dragoon gains both the Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride) feats as bonus feats. This ability replaces the 1st-level fighter bonus combat feat.

Spear Training (Ex): At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon's weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Banner (Ex): At 9th level, a dragoon may attach a banner to his lance. This is identical to the cavalier class feature. The bonuses provided by the dragoon's banner increase by +1 for every five levels beyond 9th (to a maximum of +3 at 19th level). Cavalier levels stack with his dragoon level for determining the effect of his banner, and he can take the better banner progression. This ability replaces weapon training 2, 3, and 4.
Piercing Lance (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action or as part of a charge, a dragoon attacking a mounted opponent can make two attacks, one against the mount and the other against the rider, using his highest base attack bonus. Furthermore, if the mount is hit and its rider attempts to negate the hit with the Mounted Combat feat, the dragoon's attack roll is considered 4 higher when calculating the DC of the Ride check to negate the hit. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Leaping Lance (Ex): At 15th level, a dragoon and his mount suffer no armor check penalty on Acrobatics checks while mounted. When charging, a dragoon may jump from his mount toward his target. If he jumps 10 feet, his charge modifiers on attack rolls and to AC are doubled and he is still considered mounted for lance damage, mounted combat feats, and so on. This ability replaces armor training 4.

Weapon Mastery: The dragoon must select the lance for this ability.

Where does it say his Armour Training "stops advancing?"


Quote:

SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION

Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So if you're a Fighter(Dragoon), do you treat your Fighter level as four higher or your Fighter(Dragoon) levels as four higher? Can you separate your Fighter levels from your Fighter(Dragoon) levels?


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Decorate your beach side tourist shop?

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