DudeMonkey's page

CEBrown wrote:

I've seen 3e (and older) players taking the mere existence of (or ANY postitive feedback on) 4e as a direct insult too - it's probably the biggest thing keeping me from utterly hating 4e; when people get that bitter over something that doesn't exist yet... well, I just don't want to be one of THEM...

You can't glorify an extreme by pointing out the shortcomings of the opposite extreme.

He's not glorifying an extreme. That's an intellectually dishonest statement. What he's doing is trying to inject some reality into a situation that has basically turned into a large number of people putting their hands over their ears and screaming, via internet messageboard post, at the top of their lungs.

carmachu wrote:

Are 4e fans that thinned skinned?

Some seem to be. I have seen it several times: You criticise the game or its creators, and some 4e fans consider it a personal insult.

One of the biggest complaints about 4th edition is the WotC marketing tactic of suggesting that there might be problems with the 3.5 system, which some 3.5 fans seem to consider to be a personal insult. Hmmm. Are all the anti4e fans so thin skinned?

Just sayin

Same-same here in South Korea.

When I lived in Seoul, I couldn't get anything shipped to me because no one could find my address. If you ask ten koreans how to get to the building down the street from you, you'll get 8 different answers including at least one "you can't get there from here."

One thing that people don't think about when they think about the basic D&D rules is that when you factor in weapon mastery, dominion rules, skills, all the new classes/weapons/rules from the gazetteer and box sets, the Savage Coast/Red Steel rules, Voyage of the Princess Ark articles that had even MORE rules ... that game was orders of magnitude more detailed, specific, and complicated than the inappropriately (at the time) named "Advanced" D&D. Hahah.

With the Sea People, Night Howler, and Orcs of Thar packages, you had probably 50 playable races (okay, they functioned like classes in that game), and with the gazetters you probably had 20 or 30 playable classes, including 6 or 7 "prestige" classes.

Seriously, though, the world that was developed through that game (which eventually became Mystara) would be perfect for a 4th edition campaign. Lots of space for adventure, lots of room for DMs to put interesting locations, fantastic terrain, and cool names for the locations. It was great!

That ruleset was an AWESOME sandbox ruleset. It was the "Grand Theft Auto" to 3rd editions "Call of Duty". They're both fun, but your assessment that they seemed to have different goals is correct.

Yes!

What nobody has mentioned yet is how we're aiming for more of that classic 1e feel in Guide to Darkmoon Vale by having me do all the interior artwork (all black and white, of course). It veers just a little bit from that true nostalgia feel, though, in that my drawing style has a strong anime influence. On the plus side, though, it's not very good, so it should look pretty comparable to those pieces you mention.

If you ever draw an anime-style Froghemoth, let me know. I'll definitely want a framed copy.

One +4 back-scratcher coming your way!

I was 10 when I got the AD&D books with those cartoons in them, and they warped my sense of humor for life.

If I have half as much fun with 4th edition as I had playing the game with the box set rules, I f**king promise to buy every 4th edition book that comes out.

Those box set rules had some pretty serious flaws, but my friends and I spent entire summers playing D&D with them.

Paizo would have to, somehow, make 4th edition look and feel like "classic D&D" in order for me to buy the core books (at least round 1 of the core books) from them at a 15% discount.

You mean fill the pages with confusing and often contradictory rules, pencil drawings by an eleven-year old, and comics that aren't even funny to drug abusers coming out of a coma? Ah, the nostalgia!

(Personally I never understood why WotC didn't make a 3.x Unearthed Arcana a yearly book, chock full of OGL monsters, spells, classes, and mechanics from 3rd party publishers. Heck if a 'pocket PHB' sold, what's sauce for the goose is good for the gander)

Same here. I don't have access to any of WotC's business information, but I'm going to guess that they make most of their money selling rulebooks. That's why they produce 20 of them a year.

Assuming that's correct, making MORE of their stuff OGL is the way to go because it makes it more useful (and therefore more valuable). Yes, WotC comes out with a couple of good adventures a decade but they'll never be able to pull off something on the scale of Age of Worms or Savage Tide or Rise of the Runelords. Why not make MORE of their rules/classes/monsters/feats OGL so that they're more valuable to talented adventure designers?

It seems like WotC started to change direction at some point and almost seemed like they regretted divesting any responsibility to other groups. When I saw that they were bring Dungeon and Dragon magazines back "in house", I thought that was probably the worst idea I ever heard. There was an entire company optimized to produce those two magazines at a high level of quality and a low price point, and WotC just doesn't have that capability. Clearly.

I think 4th edition is probably going to be one of the best RPG rule systems we've ever seen because it's made by people who play more D&D in one year than most of us play in 5, but it's potentially going to be lost in some of the other decisions WotC is making.

Anyway, that was off-topic.

1. I will convert if my gaming group goes for it. We've got a lot of money invested in 3rd edition and there's also some inertial resistance against it. I suspect we will eventually convert.

2. I would happily buy any high quality 4th edition adventure path and, in fact, that would provide a lot of momentum for our group to convert. If I'm DMing and I've got an AP that I really want to run and it's 4th edition, we're pretty much going to start playing 4th edition.

3. If my group stays with 3.5 and Paizo stays with 3.5, I'm your guy.

I would say I have seen 5 different trends :

1) People who will stick to 3.5 and will cancel (most of / or all of) their subsription(s) if Paizo goes 4E : I'd say about 40%

2) People who will go 4E and will cancel (most of / or all of) their subsription(s) if Paizo sticks to 3.5 : I'd say about 32,5%

3) People who will lean toward 4E OR stick to 3.5 but will keep their subscription : I'd say about 12,5%

4) People who will wait the rules before deciding ; most of them intend to buy Paizo products : I'd say about 10%

5) People who will eventually change to 4E but are still playing an AP / PF adv path / GMM or Dungeon adventures and will not change until the beginning of 2009 (to mid/end-2010) : I'd say about 5%

Curious as to where you got those numbers.

You're right he didn't specifically say any of those things. Many of them were implied if you take his statements to their logical conclusion. He did make it sound like their would be little risk of serious consequences for doing stupid or rash things. He also made it sound like previous editions didn't allow for characters to do many bold or heroic things and survive. The out of control mine cart and darkmantles going splat on shields do pretty much scream DM fiat to me. There may be rules for this (or more likely helpful guidelines), in 4th edition. If so, he should have had the good sense to mention that since it does seem like nothing more than interesting storytelling.

Almost none of those things are implied if you take Chris's statements to their logical conclusion. They're all implied, however, if that's the only thing you're looking for when you read articles about someone having fun during a playtest of 4th edition.

However, I'll give you that there aren't rules for super-cinematic effects in most previous editions. If you want to jump off a volcanic crater and try to land on the back of a flying red dragon and start stabbing it with your sword, you're going to need a cool DM in order to make it happen.

DudeMonkey wrote:

The "Worlds and Monsters" preview book was the most entertaining RPG product I've read since "Age of Worms" (which is still the best RPG idea I've ever seen in terms of innovation and fun).

Wow, if that was the best thing you've read since "Age of Worms" I think I may pity you.

Age of Worms was awesome.

Worlds and Monsters was awesome.

I'm comfortable with that.

I'm looking forward to 4th edition for a number of reasons. It's a fresh start, for one. Some of the 3rd edition books were poorly thought out but it's really tough to take something away from players once they've used it and like it. The only book we've been able to effectively ban from our group was the psionics book, which ruined D&D for our group for a whole year.

I think they're taking the game in a fun direction. I like the idea of a character's race being a more meaningful thing from a game mechanical standpoint. I think that's a great idea and I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle it.

I don't mind the power creep since I think we're going to see the most balanced rule system yet. What I'm reading indicates that this is the most well-thought out RPG system, probably ever. I'm willing to at least give it a shot.

The ideas they have about changing the settings are all awesome, in my opinion. The "Worlds and Monsters" preview book was the most entertaining RPG product I've read since "Age of Worms" (which is still the best RPG idea I've ever seen in terms of innovation and fun).

Third edition D&D was a giant leap forward for the game, and I think 4th edition is going to take the game to a new, more fun level. It's disappointing that this community largely sees the advent of the new edition as a bad thing, but it's not going to discourage me from giving it a try. The reality is that most of the more vocal naysayers are likely to be playing 4th edition by this time next year. I understand the reluctance to leave one's comfort zone, but to get discouraged based on internet speculation and weapons-grade misinterpretation of the few pieces of information that have leaked about the game doesn't make much sense to me.

It's not hard to imagine that some of the same things that happened to 3rd edition that made it unwieldy and dragged down the speed of play will happen to 4th edition. I'm okay with that. We'll all grow though the game like we did through 3rd edition. And I am fully aware of the business case for an eventual 5th edition. I'll cross that bridge when it comes.

There are some interesting conclusions being drawn...

... by whom? People in the gaming industry who have seen it, or people who have internet access and a bone to pick?

The thing is they're in a Catch-22 situation - keep going with d20 and risk everyone either going to 4E or just dropping the game, or go with 4E and risk losing your shirt if it tanks.

Planning for 4e "tanking" isn't likely to be worth a significant effort. In general, when the industry leader moves in a certain direction, the industry is going to follow. There are always stragglers but they are not usually the more successful group.

New editions of products let people create some drama. Then when the new product comes out, everyone moves to it over the course of probably about a year and that's that.

The decision to make such massive changes to the Realms right from the start is puzzling. This new edition is great for homebrew campaigns (I run one and this is why I'm so stoked for the new edition of the game ... it can really help provide an interesting, exciting underpinning to a world in which I have complete creative control) and should be good for Greyhawk campaigns that are done in the style of Age of Worms and Savage Tide (two of the greatest D&D ideas with some of the best execution I've seen in a D&D related product). I don't know much about Eberron, so I can't speak for that, but I know that the Realms is almost fundamentally incompatible with these new ideas.

I'm not a big fan of any campaign setting so this doesn't upset me, but I can see why it would bother others.

If I'm WotC, I roll out 4th edition and continue to push out these setting-neutral products that use the Points of Light idea as their foundation. Then you put setting-specific conversions on the website. Everyone comes out relatively okay. The tough part is planar adventures, but that's always tough anyway.

I think 4th edition is taking D&D back to its roots in a lot of ways ... back to a time when there was adventure around every corner on the DM's handdrawn map. But this time they really bring 30 years of experience with the game, the settings, the monsters, and the PCs place in the world, and they do them in an intelligent, cohesive manner.

I'm glad most of you can see the fun in this thread.

I figured that we could all use a bit of perspective, so I thought I'd start a thread about some other things throughout history that people hated as much as people seem to hate 4th edition:

computers (programmers in India used to have to have armed security guards)
beer
rock and roll
hip-hop
the idea that the earth goes around the sun
coca cola
free trade
Elvis
George Carlin
democracy
the automobile
VCRs (there is almost no footage from the first two super bowls because they thought that no one would EVER want to watch a show that's already been on)
skirts that *only* came down to women's knees
France

this is just what I could come up with in 5 minutes. Anyone else?

Company after company appear to be winding down popular and successful D20 Dungeons and Dragons lines. While there's always the urge to be up ahead with the current trends, do they really think that everyone's going to drop 3rd Edition D&D like a hot potato come the summer?

Even if 4th Edition D&D is as good as Wizards seem to think it will be, it's going to take time to percolate through the gaming community; while a lot of people remain ready to be convinced that the switch is worthwile at all.

Please, publishers, do not slam the door shut...

Historically speaking, that's what happens. People "upgrade." Sure, there's tons of people upset about it beforehand and they all say they're only going to upgrade when froghemoths can fly, but the vast majority of people move to the newest version.

I'm a business analyst in the tech industry and this is how it goes there, too. The gaming industry is just maturing in a similar way to how the tech industry did 15 years ago.

WotC has a lot of momentum behind them and can change the industry on their own. They're basically big enough to create their own gravity, so to speak, the way Google, Sun, and Microsoft can in the tech world. WotC decides to push for 4th edition, the 3rd party publishers (typically correctly) assume there will be a lot of people upgrading over the first year that the new version is out, some people upgrade enthusiastically, most of the rest upgrade when they realize that the new stuff that they want is only compatible with the new version, a few get into the new game without historical knowledge of the previous versions, and a few never upgrade.

The gaming industry is interesting right now because of the quality of product that Paizo is putting out. That gives them a certain amount of ability to hold on to 3rd edition for a while if they want. Truth be told, they are likely to have to move forward, too, for one reason or another. I think there are enough businesspeople at WotC who realize that getting Paizo on board with 4th edition is going to make their lives so much easier. In fact, if I were a business analyst in the gaming industry, I'd be taking the Paizo people out to dinner, giving them sneak previews of 4th edition, sending flowers to their mothers, and doing everything I can to get them to have an AP ready to go for the release of 4th edition.

I realize that the gaming industry is very different from the tech industry, but I would be willing to bet that it's fundamentally the same from a high-level point of view. For those of you who read Ryan Dancy's articles about the OGL and the d20 system back in 2000, this is what he was going for.

The good news for everyone is that, by doing these kinds of things, WotC is basically able to pay people to play DnD a whole lot and spend even more time thinking about the game and all it's moving parts. They found some things that were really awesome about the game and some things that really just killed people's fun, and I think 4th edition is an attempt the make the game as fun as possible for as many people as they can.

I, personally, am looking forward to 4th edition. If my group doesn't want to buy into it right away, I'm looking forward to running Age of Worms, Savage Tide, and Rise of the Runelords for them ... three products that made me want to DM again after 20 years as a player.

I'll also be curious to see how many Over My Dead Body Gamers choose to convert anyway.

I'll be surprised if less than 75% of the "I'm never playing 4th edition" were still holding out by June 2009.

I realize I'm in the minority here, but I'm really excited about 4th edition. Third edition was a HUGE step forward for the game and I think 4th edition does away with a lot of things that just flat-out weren't fun (for most people) about the game. Your race will matter for the whole campaign, you're not going to get killed with one bad die roll, DM prep time should be easier, and the game was developed by people who play the game FOR A LIVING.

When 3rd edition came out, there was just as much rancor about the game as we're seeing now and just about everyone eventually switched. The same thing happened when 2nd edition was released, but the rancor was on Usenet and the letters page of Dragon instead.

It will be interesting to see who's playing 4th edition a year from now.

No one's saying it's going to be perfect, and your favorite gaming world eventually dies a horrible death (I was a fan of Mystara until the 2nd half of the Gaz series came out and it turned too "sci-fi" for me). Change is just kind of a fact of life.

You're going to like what they do with Giants in 4th edition, then. They talk about exactly what you're saying here, that giants should be ... well ... giant.