I disagree. You may have received special approval to offer the chronicles after their official time window, but that does not invalidate the intention that they are not to be used outside of the original Beginner's Box Bash event. My original comments were directed at the general membership.
Agreed. I went searching for information while Patrick and I were debating, and discovered the December 15th end date on that event. I wasn't even aware of that, or I never would have even asked last fall.
So, I guess it was because I asked nicely. My mother was right. (-;
The only way a player can replay a scenario is if they are necessary to make a table legal (so, they are the third player at a table which already has two plus a GM, or the fourth player at the table thus making the "GMPC" unnecessary). When the player is doing this, he will be playing a pre-generated character that is there simply to make sure the table happens.
So, no, there is no condition or death that can be gained, any more than the "GMPC" can gain a condition or death while the GM is running one for a table. It is literally just there for support, as is the player.
As I recall, the "special" boons with the no cost raise dead ("Death Walker") was specifically for those who played/GM'd all four Beginner Box delves/demo's during the product release "bash". It was not intended to be used after that.
This is not correct, however.
Once again, I was given permission to both run the Bash and give out the chronicle sheets over a year after the initial event. Obviously, it has been eight months since then so things may have changed, but as of last fall I was being allowed to do a repeat of this event.
As you said, you have a horse in this race, so I understand your arguments.
But I promise you it's to be treated like a chronicle. I looked up my instruction sheet, and here is the language they use:
Quote:
We also know a Game Master’s time is valuable. Since those volunteering to make your Beginner Box Bash event a success will not have the chance to play in any demos and complete their demo checklists, be sure to thank them for their time and effort by awarding anyone who runs all four demos (or the same demo four times) a special Pathfinder Society Organized Play Chronicle sheet as well.
Sorry, Patrick, but your argument cuts both ways. And, seeing as you didn't run the demos, you should not have the sheet.
The instructions on handing out the sheet for the player boon also uses the words "Chronicle Sheet." It goes on to instruct me that the only way the players can get them is to play in all four adventures. I am supposed to explain what a "Chronicle Sheet" is, how to earn them, and what the rules are to apply them to characters.
It's even a reportable event that you earn credit for GMing.
I remember the discussions that happened around that time, asking how many sheets you could earn. The answer was the same answer we get when we ask how many chronicles you can get from a scenario: one for playing and one for GMing.
Edit: Now that I think about it, I don't think it is transferable. It says something along the lines of "your adventures and brushes with death have given you the ability to..." I'm pretty sure that's yours and not some random person you want to give it to. I could be wrong, but I know that, as a coordinator, I would be hesitant to sign off on that idea.
That's just fluff, though. For this to be the only non-transferrable race boon, there would definitely need to be an explicit statement about same. To be fair, though, I do have a dog in this race; someone gave me theirs because they couldn't think of anything clever and I'm going to be introducing my new curoromancer soon.
I'd be okay with the rule that you can't have it more than twice, if that were a ruling that was published somewhere, although I'd want to be able to use Dhampir twice, especially since Tiefling isn't a boon race anymore. Specifically, though, I'd be okay with that ruling because I'd enjoy giving my extras away to people who wanted them. But this entire concept is academic, since I'm unlikely to encounter a BBB with boons unless I hit up your store, I think. ;)
I think the problem we're running into is the word choice, again. It's not a boon, it's a chronicle. Unlike the "boons" handed out at convention, you earn this chronicle by playing in a specific event. Thus, like a chronicle given to you after playing in a scenario, it is specific to you. Think of it like the chronicle you get from We Be Goblins. You can't give that to anyone either. Yes, it's different in that it doesn't give an XP, but it is the same in the sense that it is a "Chronicle." That is also why you can only have one as a player and one as a GM.
Make sense?
Patrick Harris wrote:
Side note, where do you download the boon for this? It doesn't seem to be available on the Beginner Box page.
You don't. You have to schedule the event and Mike Brock gives you access to the download package.
Sorry, Drogon, didn't mean to imply that your event was "assembly line". I see I jumped several steps of my so-called "logic" in my post. :)
No worries. I was grouchy, at first, but I knew you were just carrying that thought process out to its logical conclusion. Still gonna ask, though. (-:
Scott Young wrote:
I don't think it's draconian to not let everyone have free raise dead boons... it was a special event, it was designed for those new players and the GMs who helped teach them the game. If it's something that anyone can get without meeting those criteria, I don't think it's a good idea. BUt if they run a eral Beginners' event (with real beginners, not just the regular players filling the spots), then great.
Draconian was probably the wrong word. What I meant was the implication that Paizo was just going to say, "No," out-of-hand to anyone who asked about whether they could do the BBB. If they have a reason to deny the request (there was a time frame when it was valid, much like the Holiday Boons), then it's not a big deal. But there isn't. I think you just need to ask. And have a plan.
Like this:
Scott Young wrote:
I do think the BBB is a good idea, though, even without the Chronicle: we're using it (well, the GenCon Kids' Track, but we're calling it a beginners' session since it's not just for kids) in all of our cons this year as our intro table. Guess I should ask Mike if I can award a Chronicle for them - it was just going to be done for its own value.
This is an excellent reason to use those boons. I don't see why he would say no.
And, by the way, veteran players have a place at a BBB game: they are there to show the new players what it's like to really role play and get into the game. Don't sell that short. If they're willing to sit through a level 1 game and patiently explain how the PFRPG works to new players, there is no reason that they shouldn't get the boon.
Scott Young wrote:
And... what bet? Did I miss a post somewhere?
Patrick pointed it out. [shameless plug] I think it's worth pursuing. You have access to the super secret boards, and I'm sure you are aware that this kind of thing can only help grow the game. So, a little help?[/shameless plug] (-:
Patrick Harris@SD wrote:
It's a transferrable boon like all other race boons--I'm not aware of any specific requirements re: applying it. Can you apply it without playing a Tiefling or Dhampir? That would be the only good way to spam free Raise Deads.
Sure, it's transferable. But you can only apply it once. Just like any other boon. Once you've assigned, say, the damphir boon to a character, you cannot subsequently apply the tiefling boon to a different character. Likewise, you will not be able to apply the raise dead to a different character than the one you applied the race boon to. If, on the other hand, you apply the raise dead boon to a character, you do not have to apply the race boon. The race is a "may" ability, to borrow a phrase from Magic.
Edit: Now that I think about it, I don't think it is transferable. It says something along the lines of "your adventures and brushes with death have given you the ability to..." I'm pretty sure that's yours and not some random person you want to give it to. I could be wrong, but I know that, as a coordinator, I would be hesitant to sign off on that idea.
It was only available for the launch of the Beginner's Box - it is no longer valid.
BUT: maybe it should be, as part of the Kids' Track/Beginner's Box system, now that there is such a program? Perhaps only applicable to someone's first character, to avoid the "everyone-plays-BB-twelve-times-to-"legally"-get-free-raise-deads" we ran into the first time...
EDIT: Missed Drogon's point there - unfortunate. It was designed to help new players survive, not let experienced players save money on raise dead. (Although the racial boon is one that should be released separately, then.)
Out of curiosity: what about my post makes you think I was setting up an assembly line situation for veteran players to get their free raise dead boons?
Patrick Harris@SD wrote:
Hmmm. I could have sworn I received an official answer somewhere that the Beginner Box Bash was no longer a thing, but now I can't find it anywhere.
Maybe it was just that I asked nicely?
It seemed to me, considering his reply, that he was thrilled that an organizer would want to continue to introduce new players and prospective RPGers to PFS via the Beginner Box Bash model. I asked him last fall if I could still schedule it and he said, "Absolutely." I asked him if the boon was still available to GMs and players, and he said, "Yes."
At the time, I was planning on filling a hole in my schedule with a "Learn to Play RPGs" day, and the Beginner Box Bash is a perfect model for that. I was also going to do some D&D Encounters, and some Mouse Guard sessions. Basically, kid and new player focused. Enticing GMs with that boon is a very powerful tool, and Mike seems to agree with that thought. Ultimately, I scrapped it because of something that got in the way (I don't recall what). But I've always kept it in the back of my mind, and will certainly ask him the same questions in the future.
Killing promotion by being draconian or exclusive seems like a poor way to market a company. I have seen no indication from Paizo that they operate that way. Quite the contrary, in fact: ask them for help and they gladly provide. It is why I champion their company at every chance I get.
Edit: And is why I think I will win my bet with you. (-;
Another Edit: I also recall when I first ran the BBB that the boon was like any other chronicle: a player could have it once, and a GM could apply it once. No "repeats" for this one, any more than there are "repeats" for Holiday Boons.
Seems i should have reported those^^ Went through the trouble running my girlfriend through it along with some of her friends, which was really difficult, but still fun. If it´s Tiefling, it doesn´t matter anyway, since those are open.
If you schedule it with Mike Brock he will still give you the package for the event. Keep in mind that he will want it to be more visible than a single table you run at home. So, an all day store event or a time slot of multiple tables at a convention. I know he will because he has given me permission to continue to hand out the boon if I run an event (not that I've taken him up on it, recently; I should).
The GM boon is two things.
1 - your choice of a race: tiefling or damphir, the latter of which is not available otherwise.
2 - A free raise dead that you can use without worrying about what Fame level you've achieved.
The players who participate in all four parts get a boon, as well: the free raise dead.
I make no argument there. It's just something that was mentioned by my store; in part because of the habit WOTC got into of sending extras with their Encounters set-up.
Ah, so you mean to ask if Paizo is going to send out packages for stores to use to promote PFS. That's different. I thought you meant a reward for hosting.
That's kind of what we're talking about in that other thread. Sure, the subject is rewards for GMs, but Paizo would need a way to distribute them, and organizers are the perfect method, as it would involve the whole chain. If a VC, VL, or store organizer were to hand out packages and rewards to GMs, they would naturally do it during game days, so everyone would be able to get in on the congratulations. I would hope that they do this, at least.
But, to be clear, WotC has never rewarded me, as an organizer, to run stuff for them. It is an inherent understanding that, if I run Friday Night Magic, for instance, I get FAR more players in on a Friday than if I simply ran my own thing on Fridays. And they are right.
Likewise, I get a ton of Pathfinder players through my doors, in part because I am one of the largest presences in Colorado for PFS.
And, yes, I make sure to reward my GMs with my own efforts as partial thanks for what they do for my business. (-:
On a similar point to this, and the Tier bennies thread... what are the chances of seeing some sort of kickback/benefit for established shops that let us run PFS?
Speaking as one of those shops, this is not something that should be expected. As I've tried to illustrate several times, running organized play is in the best interests of a publisher (Paizo) and the stores who host. Players in chairs translates into sales of product. That's the kickback/benefit.
I get huge numbers in the store from Meetup groups. Not RPGs, though; board games. I'll get 25-35 people in on any given Saturday night, and Meetup is how they connect. And they play a lot of fun, cutting edge games, not the typical stuff you see everywhere (and thankfully I was carrying a lot of the titles, already, so they really like me).
Beyond that, though, I don't have anything meaningful to give you. Sorry.
To reiterate, though: I'm not really complaining. I just don't expect a lot of action from any of them. They have GenCon on their plate. Getting involved in a discussion like this is not a simple "yes/no" thing. I get that. So, it is something that can be backburnered until there is more time to really hash out details and ideas. Assuming they are even interested, of course.
I'm bummed I don't have you in my area, Doug. I'm a coffee shop in addition to the game store (and we've won awards for the coffee, by the way). Seems like we'd be a perfect fit. (-:
I set the store up to be a social environment. Simply offering games for sale is no longer enough in this era of online sales, big box discounters, and Kickstarter packages. Organized play is a pretty important aspect of that social atmosphere, so I care quite a bit about how OP systems are implemented. If you have a good one, you'll get my full support. Anyone who organizers a system for me by scheduling game days, tournaments, or leagues gets 20% off on the product they are organizing for. Because Magic and Pathfinder are the two biggest sellers in the store I end up doing the coordinating for them, myself (I can't afford to give up all the discounts I'd end up giving; besides, these two games are my favorite games, which likely explains their position as my best sellers).
At any rate, I'm always looking for new ideas. And I'm always willing to share my own. If you think your store's owner is after advice or has questions about the benefits of something like this, I'd be happy to help.
By the way: to accomodate your newer GMs do what lastblackknight alluded to and offer what we refer to as "Slot Zero" runs on new scenarios. For instance, you know two new scenarios come out on the 29th this month. Schedule them for the following weekend, for GMs only. This runs them through the scenarios, and makes it far more likely that they will be willing to run them in turn.
I think they're just too busy to pay attention to things like this, and don't want to take the time to analyze whether something like this is worth it, or even viable. But, until Mike, Mark or John chimes in on a topic like this, it will forever be dead in the water, and an academic discussion at best.
This thread started to heat up while Mike was on vacation and is now traveling and gaming in Europe. While it may be true that he has been busy, he's always been very good at paying attention to all threads.
I agree. That's why feedback from him (or Mark or John) is the next step.
I'm certainly not holding the fact that they are busy against them. There just isn't a "next step" that can be taken (beyond more debate) without input from Paizo.
PS - Considering what I've read of his plans in various blogs, I suspect Mike will be nearly incommunicado for much of the foreseeable future, and that this isn't isolated to this time frame. Which, again, I do not hold against him. That, too, is an important part of a successful organized play system's marketing.
I think they're just too busy to pay attention to things like this, and don't want to take the time to analyze whether something like this is worth it, or even viable. But, until Mike, Mark or John chimes in on a topic like this, it will forever be dead in the water, and an academic discussion at best.
For the last year this has been my GM announcement for my game days:
Spoilered for length:
Hello, all,
It is that time, again. I’m looking for GMs for next month’s games at Enchanted Grounds in Highlands Ranch. This is not the open call for those games; that will happen next week after I have all the GM spots full. Watch for it then, if you are not going to GM. If you are interested in GMing for me, read on.
First, I would like to outline the benefits of GMing for Enchanted Grounds:
1. I can get you the module for free. If requested, I will provide a physical copy of it, along with faction missions and chronicle sheets. In certain cases, I can get you an electronic copy, but those cases are necessarily rare and must be discussed.
2. You will earn a $10 gift certificate to the store for each game you GM. This helps offset any cost you incur purchasing the scenario or the supplies to run that scenario.
3. You will be given access to the schedule ahead of the general announcement. For each table you GM I will allow you to take a player seat at another table. This seat is guaranteed, as you will be signing up ahead of the open call.
4. If you GM ten games at the store I will give you an Enchanted Grounds Pathfinder t-shirt.
5. As Phil McMahon once said so well, you "get to play an ass-hat that everyone can't stand for the entire night; one that everyone gets the satisfaction of killing at the end of the game." Don't sell that short. It's an invaluable benefit, and one everyone appreciates.
6. All of the inherent benefits of GMing PFS scenarios (character credit, advancement on the GM "star" tier, access to chronicle boons when made available, etc.).
So, with all that in mind, I would like to ask for GM volunteers for the following dates and scenarios:
Point number 3 is pretty important at my events. They fill up fast, and with GMs getting first crack at the list I have created a lot of demand for players to take turns behind the screen. It also serves as a limiting factor, keeping people from burning out, as they end up GMing twice a month, at most, and then play during the other two game day slots. That works out nicely.
I am about to run out of t-shirts. I'm unsure if I will make more or go the dice bag route.
The $10 gift certificate is generated by charging players $2 to play at each slot. That money is all used to buy the gift certificates. It also gives the games a "value" and thus cuts down on the no-call no-shows, as people won't simply sign up on the off-chance that they'll be able to attend. They actually plan it when it's going to cost them money (even if it's as small an amount as $2).
Everett Morrow (the VL in Colorado Springs) hosts a GM-only scenario once a month. I've thought about doing that as well. My biggest issue is finding a scenario they all will be able to play. I run the newest stuff in the store, and holding one back to give to the GMs would make my player lists difficult to fill (we have a large group, but it's been active for four years, now, so the new scenarios need to be a part of the rotation). How has this been working for you?
I'm also thinking of holding GM "clinics." The GM 101 course is an inspiration for that. And I'd love to see a local version of the "Iron GM" contest I've heard about at GenCon. I think our core GMs would really get behind that.
The single largest organized play system ever developed for a game is The DCI for Magic: the Gathering. It is massive, and continues to grow by leaps and bounds every year.
Do you really think the only reason it is so large is because people just want to judge and organize for it for the fun of it?
Do you really think that the rewards they offer are the ONLY reason people judge and organize for it?
I have to admit to being a little startled at the assumptions people are making. On both sides, by the way.
This is far beyond comparing apples and oranges....more like comparing apples and turtles.
Not really; each is an event put together by organisers for the benefit of a community.
Most Magic tournaments I've seen are put together by for profit groups in an attempt to make a profit, not as community benefits.
Like conventions for gamers? Or stores trying to sell products to the players of said game? Completely accurate.
Except one company makes cards and the other makes books and pdfs. That puts in some clear differences with access to organized play system product rewards.
Are they differences that can be overcome with a calculator and some rigid guidelines? Definitely!
I honestly think the only thing it does is broaden Paizo's options. If you reward a Magic player/judge with anything other than a Magic card, they complain.
Give a PFS player/judge access to an exclusive t-shirt, boon, button, character folio, dice, special avatar on the boards, PDF, book, or even just an autographed picture of Mike Brock holding up a sign that says, "This player gets a free reroll because I say so (once per session)," and I think that guy is stoked.
Paizo has a ton of options. Many of them wouldn't cost them much at all. Many of them could even be PROFITABLE.
I'm a little better than 50% in terms of running Season 4 at my events. Of the 78 tables run so far in my store this year 50 of them have been Season 4. Most of those have been from the scenarios released since the end of December. We ran all the early Season 4 scenarios during the fall events.
I don't think there will be any impact. Honestly, I see a lot of confusion about earlier story lines, and the coordinators in my area have been plotting ways to get newer players exposed to those stories in ways that make sense.
I think Deane meant in terms of the nature of the games.
In Magic it's a small request to gift judges a new card which may only be worthwhile from a collector's point of view. Maybe 20c lost by Wizards?
If Paizo gifts GMs pdfs or even books they lose $20 or more. The product line and emphasis on big valuable products makes it tougher to start a freebie service.
Not an accurate comparison, at all. For one thing, it costs more than that per card, for sure, simply because they spend more than that on the price of the stamp to send it to me. Then there's the envelope, and the packaging, along with the "thank you" letter. And they have more than once stated that the cost to produce a promotional card is not "cheap" by any stretch. They feel the cost is offset by the goodwill that is generated.
For much of what people in this thread are proposing for Paizo, there are offers to PAY for the item, and even if it's a profit point for Paizo, they would be happy with it.
I am comparing the willingness of the two companies to do these things, and what it means to their organized play systems. The game that is being played really has nothing to do with how the volunteer organization that sets it in motion is run (and rewarded).
Edit: And, by the way, Judge promos are usually highly sought after cards, and not just from a collector standpoint. The ones they award judges at large scale events often range in price from $100 to $200 on the after-market. Cards don't reach that level of pricing unless they are highly desirable (which means they are playable in many formats). These particular ones are, of course, only awarded to high level judges (think 5-star GM level).
The single largest organized play system ever developed for a game is The DCI for Magic: the Gathering. It is massive, and continues to grow by leaps and bounds every year.
Do you really think the only reason it is so large is because people just want to judge and organize for it for the fun of it?
Do you really think that the rewards they offer are the ONLY reason people judge and organize for it?
I have to admit to being a little startled at the assumptions people are making. On both sides, by the way.
This is far beyond comparing apples and oranges....more like comparing apples and turtles.
I run a $750,000 business that requires both of these organized play systems to run in perfect order. I get hundreds of players for each system through my store each month. I am a level one judge and working on my level two for magic, along with being a Premiere level store for The DCI. Paizo makes it fully apparent how much experience I have with PFS. I promise you I'm not comparing apples and turtles.
The single largest organized play system ever developed for a game is The DCI for Magic: the Gathering. It is massive, and continues to grow by leaps and bounds every year.
Do you really think the only reason it is so large is because people just want to judge and organize for it for the fun of it?
Do you really think that the rewards they offer are the ONLY reason people judge and organize for it?
I have to admit to being a little startled at the assumptions people are making. On both sides, by the way.
One other thing I'd like to address from Mr. Collins' post:
Delbert Collins II wrote:
They support this great forum and their staff is constantly reading and responding to the posts and have taken into account the feedback from the participants on a large number of issues and are constantly looking for ways to make the campaign better.
This reminds me of something that's been bugging me: We're a full week into this thread, with 145 posts, and it was spawned from another thread that ran 267 posts over 10 days. There has not been a single Paizo representative checking in to say something like, "We're listening." Or anything else, except "I removed some posts."
Man, I've got a whole year. Don't get cocky on me, yet; it's only been a week.
Delbert Collins II wrote:
Like I said if you want recognition or boons, prizes it is best done at the local level, not corporately. Come to SCARAB and volunteer for me and I'll take care of you.
It is offensive to me that you are devaluing the work done to support the campaign because someone is earning a living doing it while simultaneously saying that your work is somehow more valuable because to do not get a pay check to do it.
Delbert, I am going to respectfully ask you to read three posts:
The reason: I don't think anyone here is DEMANDING that their efforts be recognized. They are certainly saying it would be nice if they were. And I think what you see in someone like Doug is what Paizo can accomplish with everyone here, if just a little extra effort is put forth on their part. And, once again, many of the options being discussed are cost neutral (boons), or are even being floated as a potential profit point for Paizo (t-shirts for purchase).
I'm only asking you to look at this, and consider what I'm saying, because I want you to have a little perspective shift. In other words, I just don't think you should be offended.
I have been running games and coordinating game days for 3 & 1/2 years, now. I have purchased every single PFS scenario out there. I even subscribe to the Adventure Path line so that I can get a 15% discount on those PDFs (even though I could get the APs at cost; thankfully Paizo offers an awesome discount on the AP line, and the PDF makes it worthwhile for me).
I print out all my scenarios for my GMs.
I lend them minis, maps, and materials when needed.
I bought a bunch of t-shirts that I give out to GMs when they hit 10 games in my store.
I have given away books, dice, miniatures, food, and drinks as prizes at various events and for various accomplishments (JP's fifth star, for instance, earned him a $50 gift certificate from me).
I am considering getting dice bags for them (again, at my own expense).
I have spent, and will continue to spend, a ton of money on this organized play system. Why? Because it makes my store money. Paizo is in the same position. Goodwill is in their best interest, just as it is in my own best interest.
And, if Paizo chooses not to do anything, I will continue to do these things. I think most of the GMs here will, too. There is no need to be contentious about this.
There should not be a canned email message. Your VC or VL should do it. Honestly it takes 5 minutes at the most to fire up your email and say awesome job.
The canned email should absolutely go to your VC or VL, however. I can assure you that I have no idea how many stars most of my GMs have, and I doubt my VC is any more aware of them than I (likely less, as she's rarely on the public boards - and even then she'd only get exposed to the four or five of us who post). THEY need the email so they know who to congratulate. Otherwise GMs are forced into acts that make Matthew Pittard's eyes roll.
See, things like that is something we should be investing in. Areas that know each other. I know its harder to do in areas that are far apart, but it allows open communication amongst an area.
Now I am blessed, and come from an area where we all talk to each other regularly. If not though, we wouldn't know each other very well and the loneliness would be worse. Having good lines of communication, even if it's just to boost each other up, does wonders in keeping players, GMs and leaders in the game..
This is just my 2 cents. So long as appreciation is being shown, I don't care what the goodies are.
I'll be honest: I suspect there are a reasonable number of GMs who have no idea how many stars they may have (just as there are a good number of them who never come to these boards). Our own area has very good communication, and Jacque is very good about saying "thank you." But it would be cool if Paizo alerted her to when a GM got a star so she could point it out for the rest of us at a game day. Because, like I said, I'm willing to bet that it is not irregular for people to not know, themselves.
There should not be a canned email message. Your VC or VL should do it. Honestly it takes 5 minutes at the most to fire up your email and say awesome job.
The canned email should absolutely go to your VC or VL, however. I can assure you that I have no idea how many stars most of my GMs have, and I doubt my VC is any more aware of them than I (likely less, as she's rarely on the public boards - and even then she'd only get exposed to the four or five of us who post). THEY need the email so they know who to congratulate. Otherwise GMs are forced into acts that make Matthew Pittard's eyes roll.
It's telling that there's such a wide range of motivators. These messageboards are just a small sample of the active GMs out there. Can you imagine how hard it is for the campaign leadership to upgrade the GM Rewards model without disappointing some of us? I think the Stars next to our names have been very effective. You can tell by every time Matthew rolls his eyes ;) that peer recognition is a huge motivator in PFS. Sure, players saying "Thanks for the game" has gotten many a GM to their first star. But what keeps the donkey pulling the cart for 30-40 scenarios? It's the enticing carrot dangling a mere foot ahead of it.
To be clear:
Paizo does not HAVE to dangle anything in front of my face to get me to continue GMing. I would be willing to bet that the majority of GMs feel the same way. We love what we do, and will continue to do it because we love it. Alternatively, we know we're needed, and are not the kind of people who will walk away from that need. Or, frankly, the rewards that ARE offered (in the form of character credit) are sufficiently motivational for the remainder of us (which is fine).
But I would be willing to bet that you don't simply expect your wife to love you just because you love her. You tell her in lots of little ways, just as she tells you. Are those things necessary to maintain your relationship? Maybe not. Do they help keep your relationship as awesome as it is? Absolutely.
We are on these boards pulling for Paizo all the time (and, as you pointed out, that is a tiny percentage of the people who actually play Paizo's games). The rest of us are out and amongst the gaming community telling people how awesome Paizo is. They, too, are constantly discussing the merits of Paizo's products with anyone who will pay attention. As GMs, all of us are regularly making sure that people are enjoying Paizo's game. WE are the face of Paizo for the vast majority of people.
Does Paizo have to pat me on the back every now and then to keep me doing that? No. But if they did, my vigor and zeal for doing so would be redoubled.
And, Doug, this response is not targeted at you, specifically. You just asked the right questions to get the above response out of me.
Doug Miles wrote:
What has gotten you to this point as a GM?
What could Paizo dangle in front of you to get you to GM another 30 scenarios before GenCon?
NOW you get the direct response. (-:
What has gotten me here is a desire to see my store recognized as the best of its kind. Not only is the environment one of the best environments you can find in a gaming store (seriously: it comes with an award winning coffee shop and cafe attached), but the people involved in the store are among the most personally accessible people you will ever find in a gaming environment. I like setting the example, and want my staff and those who volunteer to GM for me to have something to aspire to.
Also, to be blunt, by being awesome as a GM I create a lot of repeat business for myself. It's the most fun I have marketing any of my products.
As for getting me to do another 30 scenarios before GenCon? Paizo would actually have to offer something pretty extreme. I have a lot of things to pay attention to, and while I love me some Pathfinder, shirking those other duties to the exclusion of PFS would end up in Very Bad Things(tm) happening.
But that's just me.
I can easily see some sort of incentive like a race boon dragging many of my GMs from the fringes and getting them clamoring for more tables to run. And I would love to see that, because it would mean Paizo cares as much about setting the example as I do.
How about a community-based, informal difficulty rating system that would provide difficulty levels for each tier?
That would be kinda cool. I dont know how well it would work on these forums since it couldnt be constantly updated, unless a Paizo employee did it for us.
If this did work, this would be a way to do those spoiler type tags (heavy RP, heavy combat, puzzles, etc) that someone suggested be added to scenarios awhile back.
I was actually thinking of an off-site Google Doc, much like the GM resources database. It would have, in the backend, a form and a spreadsheet. I'd be willing to set something up if there's interest.
Why don't you get together with PFCBG and get it placed on the GM resource page?
Or would that keep players from seeing it? Is that a goal? Not sure, here...
Paizo has gotten where it is today by being tight-fisted. With John Compton being brought aboard as a PFS Developer, I am encouraged that the campaign is providing Paizo with a return on its investment.
Doug, they've been the #1 selling RPG on the market for the better part of two years. I can give you actual numbers for Paizo sales at my store, and I know there are thousands of stores that carry the product. Moreover, every time I purchase something from their online store (about once a month) the ticket number has moved ahead by 10s of thousands.
There comes a point where you have to stop being tight-fisted and start being the industry leader.
Just ask Microsoft, Apple, Starbucks, Sony, etc.
And they're making steps; don't get me wrong. Co-sponsors for GenCon, expanding Paizocon, creating new gaming companies, and making new moves into proven markets.
Now it is time for them to start creating more Doug Mileses. Seeing as you were the 1st of many different things, those avenues are no longer available. But showing appreciation via various methods (some of which people have even offered to PAY FOR) will create legions of people like you, who appreciate what Paizo has done for them and will continue pushing the Paizo experience.
Sheesh, we'll help get you that 4th star...so that you have the privelige of running us through even more content! :)
I suppose there's the problem, its 'easy' on paper to get one star, or maybe two, but what percentage of the PFS player base has one or two stars, and if they do have two, how many just keep right on GM'ing onwards? I'd wager that if you spent enough time to go get two, you are probably a committed GM.
Even the one star wont happen by 'accident'.
I would largely agree with this. As best as I can tell, my local lodge has one three star GM, one two star GM (me), and about 5 one-star GMs. Stars aren't as common as they appear to be on the boards.
No, they really aren't.
Locally, we have around 300 players who have participated (at least once) in PFS. Probably half those participate regularly enough for me to recognize.
We have one 5-star GM (JP Chapleau) and two 4-star GMs (me and Dave the Barbarian). I can name three 3-star GMs (Kerney, Everett Morrow - a VL - and Todd Lower). There are likely a few others, but I do not know for sure because I never see them on the boards. There are scads of 2-star and 1-star GMs, and double that who don't have any stars, at all, but do GM occasionally.
To sum up, we're a pretty good area with a very deep GM pool. I see two of us on the boards regularly (though a third has begun nosing his way in, lately), and three more occasionally. The others? Pretty much never.
And I think that sums up PFS players pretty well, by the way. The VAST majority don't touch the boards, much less know where they are.
Man...I make a bet with Patrick and he goes and starts doing all the work for me to make him lose. I need to invite you over for poker, sir. (-:
1970Zombiel wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know, the only GM reward for stars is access to run the Season's Exclusive Scenario upto a year before it is released if you have 4 or 5 stars.
Yep. 100 games and you get to GM the "cool kid" scenario.
Which is fun, admittedly, and a nice little something to look forward to. But I think if people had something to look forward to for their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th stars, then there would be a lot more incentive to GM more often.
Magic gives out promotional cards to their GMs (a packet every year based on what level judge you are, and another packet at Christmas). WotC also used to send stuff to their DMs for LFR/Encounters (D&D Tile sets, initiative trackers, special modules - the Tomb of Horrors reprint was AWESOME).
There are myriad options, and I don't even think Paizo needs to get as pricey as what I listed above. As others have mentioned, even if you give me the option to PURCHASE something like a cool 1-shot module or scenario written by, say, Jason Buhlman, I'd be pretty happy. Then they could even make some of their money back.
As for those who say they are happy with what they have, that's fine; so am I. But wouldn't you smile just a little bit if Paizo sent you something fun in the mail one day? Wouldn't you feel just a bit more appreciated, and thus more pleased about the effort you expended on behalf of PFS? WotC didn't need to give me all that stuff, either. But man was I excited when I got it in the mail. And when I told other players about it, they all wanted to know how they could get in on the "gravy train." Which was an easy answer: start judging/DMing.
This is only true until someone doesn't think it's "right" or "fair" to not have something others do.
Those words have been used over and over and over in every single argument for more, More, MORE! since this all began. Currently, they're not being used because, well, everything is fair.
Edit: Again, don't misunderstand me. I am largely on board with this idea. I just don't want it to be character credit driven.
Meaning: vanities are an excellent idea. Generic credits are an excellent idea (depending on what they go toward). I just want the focus to stay there.
Make enough noise about it and it will get heard, Netopolis. Paizo has demonstrated that multiple times.
I think the main reason is actually work overload and the amount of new work necessary to introduce a system like what we are talking about. And, frankly, the amount of work necessary to introduce "generic" chronicles for credit equals that. So, the two discussions can be housed in the same location.
I'm just going to say bluntly that it is not good to have a system of reward (stars) that doesn't actually reward. That needs to change. So, I'm making noise.
If the two groups were equivalent and movement between the two groups was closed, then these would be valid questions with hard answers. However, a lot more people want to play than to GM, which requires incentives for GMs and to get those incentives all a player has to do is GM. I.e., there is nothing stopping a player from GMing a table other than themselves. The race boons are gained by GMing one slot at a con with them, which isn't hard to do. Even at home games people buy beer and whatnot for GMs.
I do see your point. And, for the most part, I agree with you.
But I wasn't asking the questions to get answers for myself. I was asking the questions that (legitimately) get asked by players already. Imbalance in the methods of earning chronicles will create imbalance between the two groups feelings of accomplishments. Players who have no intention of GMing no matter what the incentives are (and there are plenty of them) will begin clamoring for more. And they would be justified. Just like when GMs couldn't earn everything on a chronicle as a GM they clamored for more, and were justified in doing so.
I suppose this is going back to that "don't fear the future" and "I wasn't here, then" stuff.
Look, I think it's reasonable to step in at this point and say "Enough is enough." As a GM I have absolute flexibility in applying all the rewards from a chronicle in whatever way I see fit. Once. Just like a player does. I am fine with that equality, and don't feel a need to carry my "rights" further.
And if you don't think that isn't already slightly disproportionate in the GM's favor, I would like to point you at the chronicles for Bonekeep and Eyes of the Ten. As a player it is nearly impossible to earn everything on those chronicles. But GM it and you get it all without risk.
From the standpoint of fairness, there is no longer any justification in asking for more character credit than is already given to either side of the screen.
If this conversation is about incentivizing GMs (or new GMs) to run things more often, let's get that on the table WITHOUT going to character credit. It just isn't necessary. Give me a target as a GM to hit (hey, look, there are stars next to my name - what do they mean?) and tell me I get something every time I hit a target number. If repeating scenarios is what is necessary to make this work for some of us, then make that target number something that can't be hit unless they are running something they've already run for character credit.
@Drogon: I think your concern about people asking fro the option for replay credit, and trying to justify it with "GMs can get additional credits for running a scenario again!" are baseless. All that campaign leadership has to say, in order to pull the rug out from under that argument, is that GMing a scenario, and playing a scenario are like apples and oranges. The differences outweight the similarities, and that includes the differences that almost certainly make giving GMs the ability to gain multiple GM credits for a scenario different enough to not be of any use in trying to justify giving a player credit for playing a scenario multiple times.
I will agree to disagree with you.
I will throw in a side argument to go with my main stance, however: why should players be treated differently than GMs? Why should GMs get better treatment than players? And why would the campaign leadership ever want to invite that argument into the fore?
I already said I don't doubt the replay point will get raised due to re-GM credit. I also think more "Why do GMs get the cool race boons?" style questions will get asked if re-GM credit is allowed. I don't think there is any reason to invite either attitude to the table.
Make the credit independent of character advancement and you'll get me on your side.
Would you be happy if at your table the whole game was stopped because n one in the party could make the DC 26 sleight of hand
No, because that's terrible encounter design. Just like I wouldn't like any encounter that required a DC 28 will save from everyone to make it past whatever mind control spell the BBEG threw at you.
Keeping that from happening is on the writers and on the development team. But being told that social encounters are a waste of time won't help them try to find out a way to build them in a fun way.
Dennis Baker wrote:
I'd love more PFS scenarios where role playing is a bigger part of the scenario, I love writing them. I also love non-combat encounters, but they tend to get a lot of hate on the forums.
I don't believe they are getting any more hate than the uber-deadly encounters that currently exist out there are getting.
Once again: I think these types of scenarios already exist. The results of failing the social encounters are simply not being realistically enforced.
I should note if the success or failure of my mission depends on a single skill check or multiple successes something may have gone horribly wrong.
The success of your current missions depends on multiple successes (to hit rolls) and often on the back of a single skill check (saving throw). Why can't social encounters be engineered the same way by authors and developers? And why can't players be expected to approach them the same way they approach combat?
Yes, but combat and skill checks are very different things, even if they are both controlled by the mighty D20. One of the bigger differences is in combat you can win without rolling anything (Witch/wizard for instance, make everyone else roll.) All characters have a use in combat also, though some are better than others at certain things.
However, if you lack a party face and fail the whole mission because of this...
I think social encounters can be prosecuted the same way that combat encounters are. The NPC has a DC (the number you need "to hit") and can be assigned a number of successes necessary to overcome (just like hit points). All characters can contribute to the encounter, depending on their skill set, just like currently happens in combat. At the end of it all, you get to move past the encounter.
Let's examine the reverse of your "lack of face" concept: what if the entire party that shows up for a game of, say, Severing Ties, is a group of socially optimized diplo-monkeys. They'll tear through the opening sequence, then run into the <you know what> and all die after failing their FORT saves. I don't see that situation as any different than a group of all fighters failing miserably at the "Infiltrate the Cult" mission because they couldn't get anyone to believe they were just a bunch of down-on-their luck thieves looking for a good score of drugs.
Edit: Heh. I'm sorry. There is a difference: the fighters will all live and get to try again in the next mission.
The only fault is in what I said: peer pressure against the GM to let the kill, Kill, KILL! table still "win" when everything is dead.
MrSin wrote:
I should note if the success or failure of my mission depends on a single skill check or multiple successes something may have gone horribly wrong.
The success of your current missions depends on multiple successes (to hit rolls) and often on the back of a single skill check (saving throw). Why can't social encounters be engineered the same way by authors and developers? And why can't players be expected to approach them the same way they approach combat?
