Dragonchess Player's page

I'm looking for ideas on building a Warrior/Mage. I'd like to stick to Pathfinder Core rules, standard 15 point buy, etc.

What are the different approaches to this archetype? There's the classic Fighter/Wizard/EK, of course, but what else? Fighter/Sorcerer/DD/EK? I might be able to swing the "base monk stuff on Int instead of Wis' feat from Dragon Compendium, so how would a Monk/Wizard go?

For melee focus, a bard/fighter/eldritch knight can make a good choice for those more interested in battlefield control and buff/de-buff spells than blowing things up. Your BAB is high enough (especially with heroism), that you can hold your own in combat. Being able to cast spells in light armor (i.e., mithral breastplate) and while using a shield (without needing to take Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats) helps you keep your AC fairly high, as well.

A bard/dragon disciple (or even bard/fighter/dragon disciple/eldritch knight) can also be a decent melee combatant. Your BAB won't be quite as good, but the draconic bloodline powers can add to your damage-causing options and you gain a few extra hit points.

IMO, the "classic" fighter/wizard/eldritch knight can make a pretty good caster and light combatant, but gives up too much in the way of BAB to shine in melee. Likewise, a sorcerer/dragon disciple also gives up too much when it comes to either BAB or spellcasting to make a really effective warrior/mage.

For a ranged focus, the fighter/wizard/eldritch knight works fairly well.

Another option for a ranged combatant is arcane archer, although you are limited to elf or half-elf and need to make some hard choices between BAB and spellcasting (maybe fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 3/arcane archer X?); a bard, bard/fighter, or bard/ranger could also work as an arcane archer.

Yeah, but he has a freaking gee-tar in a dungeon.

It mostly depends on the group, but I've encountered/used the following methods:

1) No party fund, magic items assigned/chosen by an agreed on method (i.e., consensus, pick in random order, etc.), money split equally.

2) No party fund, shares based roughly on the value of magic items vs. money (or even more basic such as "permanent item and no money, consumable/charged item and half share of money, or no item and full share of money").

3) No party fund, shares based strictly on monetary value of all treasure.

4) As 1), 2), or 3), but with a party fund of some agreed upon amount (10% of money only, 10% of total value of all treasure, an equivalent share as if the party had one more person, etc.).

5) Items assigned/chosen by an agreed on method, party fund is all money found on adventure or gained from the sale of unwanted items.

6) All items and money are considered property of the group as a whole.

In all cases, the way the party divides treasure should be something the players decide before they start adventuring, probably during character creation, or by the end of the first session. If there is a party fund, there should also be agreement on how it can and can't be used (healing potions/wands for common use, spellcasting services in emergencies, interest-free loans to be paid back as soon as possible, etc.).

I got bored and decided to create a tailored party for the adventure path. 15 Point Buy with traits (one of which must be a campaign trait); tieflings allowed, but they must take Infernal Bastard and roll on the Variant Tiefling Heritages, Abilities, and Features tables in The Bastards of Erebus (the tiefling feats on pg. 66 are also allowed).

Manius Crispin, N(G) Male Tiefling Bard, Chelaxian (pale, slightly clammy skin, blue/green eyes, black hair); traits Charming, Infernal Bastard; feat Fiendish Facade (Human); Qlippoth Spawn, communicate telepathically by touch, Ears-Other; I had to think about this one a bit, but after remembering some of the background on marsh giants and Dagon I decided to have his family as originally coming (escaping?) from a small coastal town of demon worshippers (ears are fin-like). A budding actor (ranks in Perform (Act) and (Sing)) with a checkered past (ranks in Climb, Disable Device, Perception, and Stealth), Manius wishes to make Westcrown a beacon of art and beauty (worships Shelyn). A smooth-talker (ranks in Diplomacy*) who "keeps an ear to the streets" (ranks in Knowledge (Local)*), he may consider the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class (possibly taking 2 levels of rogue for the extra skill ranks) and/or a political career. *-These ranks are from 12 Int and the favored class bonus.

Eudocia Lux-ex-Tenebrous ("Light from Darkness"), LG Female Tiefling Paladin (Iomedae), Taldan (bronze skin with metallic highlights, yellow eyes, brown hair); traits Deft Dodger, Infernal Bastard; feat Weapon Focus (Longsword); Demon Spawn, +5 ft base movement, Other-Androgynous. A foundling/orphan raised by the church of Iomedae, she wishes to reform Cheliax, starting with Westcrown, into a more just and tolerant nation. A healer (ranks in Heal) as well as a mighty warrior (16 Str), she is also a student of faith (ranks in Knowledge (Religion)) and people (ranks in Sense Motive). She may consider the Inheritor's Crusader prestige class.

Pellius Ambusta, NG Male Human Ranger, Chelaxian (pale skin, hazel eyes, dark brown hair); traits Armor Expert, Shadow Child; feats Exotic Weapon (Whip), Weapon Finesse. A native Wiscrani, he wants to restore safety and a strong sense of community to Westcrown (worships Erastil). Skilled with the bow, rapier, and whip (16 Dex), he's a hunter of beasts and monsters (ranks in Craft (Bows), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, and Survival) and a bit of a swashbuckler (ranks in Acrobatics and Climb*). He will definitely consider the Duelist prestige class. *-12 Int and favored class bonus.

Ostarian Alazarin, LN(N) Male Human Wizard (Conjurer), Chelaxian (pale skin, brown eyes, thinning brown hair); traits Diabolist Raised, Hedge Magician; feats Point Blank Shot, Spell Focus (Conjuration). A cynical, slightly greedy man, he wishes Westcrown to be more stable and conducive to trade so he can open a magic shop (worships Abadar and Nethys). A shrewd (16 Int) judge of value both mundane and magical (ranks in Appraise, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft), he's also a skilled arcanist (ranks in Craft (Alchemy), Linguistics, and Use Magical Device) with a tendency to browbeat others (ranks in Intimidate). He may consider the Loremaster prestige class.

<my play-style is the One True Way>

<shrug>

Whatever.

Here's the thing, though. Based on the average advancement, you are saying that essentually you can devote 10% of your total treasure for consumable spell items, (potions, wands, and scrolls). However, you are looking at 1.) 13 encounters per level (so basically every single level you own "the bank" an additional 30% of what you should have made and yourself have 0 GP and also that you are counting on being extremely lucky and gaining all the items (scrolls, wands, etc. . .) that you need to burn through almost daily.

In fact, going by the rough estimate of a 12th level character using ~11-12K gold on consumables (out of 108K gold using the Wealth By Level guidelines, about 11%) for eight CR 12 encounters (averaged among the combat encounters), that same character (in a party of 4) would earn approximately 8 * 4,800 = 38,400 XP. Since the game isn't only about combat, there will also be "... traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters..." (PF RPG, pg. 399), as well as the possibility of Story Awards.

Again, if the 12th level character "spends" 12K gold for a return of 18K or 27K gold, many would consider that a profit. Even if the character goes through three iterations (Medium advancement) to gain a level, the character is up about 18K gold. The gain on the Wealth By Level table is 32K gold; if the character has some item crafting feats (in addition to Scribe Scroll), that gap is easily overcome.

Also, read pg. 400. "Table 12-4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level... It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls)... Table 12-4 can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level... For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items."

The Building a Treasure Hoard section is another worthwhile read. Specifically, coins, gems, fine artwork, jewelry, and treasure maps/other intelligence can all be sold at full market value. It's only masterwork tools, mundane gear, and magic items that need to be sold at half price (if they aren't useful to the party, in which case they will be kept).

I've been on vacation for the last week, so I'm just getting back to the messageboards.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

So, is a 17th level cleric really going to use his one 9th level spell slot on a Quickened flame strike (where the mystic theurge cast the fireball/flamestrike combo up to four times per day)? Not to mention that the mystic theurge can pull off the two spell trick using 6th level, 7th level, etc. spells without a 75,500 gp Quicken metamagic rod or a 170,000 gp greater Quicken metamagic rod.

No, but that's because Flamestrike is terrible. There are lots of second to fourth level spells worth Quickening, and the MT can't really afford to use its few high-level spell slots to do that. The MT does get the signature schtick of casting two seventh-level spells at once, but it can hardly afford to do so very often.

The 16th+ character level mystic theurge can afford to double-cast 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells more often than a single class caster can afford to prepare Quickened versions of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells. There's also the issue with how combat effective (damage, battlefield control, etc.) most cleric spells are in relation to sorcerer/wizard spells (and flamestrike is a decent 5th level damage spell, mostly because half of the damage isn't subject to elemental resistance/immunity).

Quote:

Please re-read the rules on Use Magic Device (PF RPG pg. 108-109) the DCs are quite high for a skill that doesn't allow you to take 10. It's a major investment that doesn't become a worthwhile regular action (90-95% success rate on the easiest checks) until you can attain a +17 or +18 on the skill check (probably around 12th-13th level, without an investment in the feats Magical Aptitude and/or Skill Focus).

Coincidentally, right about the same time that the MT comes into its own. (And the feat is worth it if you're lacking a pure spellcaster of some sort, especially with PF's cheaper feats.)

Quote:

All of which is based on the assumption that 1 min per level spells can't be cast outside of combat and that there's no "down time" between adventures (and scrolls can be scribed very quickly at 1,000 gp market cost per day, 2 hours if 250 gp or less). This is a GM fiat/play style issue, not a RAW issue. Leave it at that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing I said was predicated on the assumption that scrolls cannot be cast out of combat or that there's no downtime between quests. I simply pointed out that you've made a character who burns 15K gold a week to be, at best, marginally inferior to other characters, under the strict circumstances that best favor the MT.

If your playstyle is the most favorable possible to the MT, it's almost a level-appropriate melee combatant. You'll make the monk jealous.

Apart from the fact that the ~16K gold specified included a ~4K gold mithral breastplate, burning 12K gold for a payoff of 18K gold (Medium advancement) or 27K gold (Fast advancement) could be considered by many people a decent return. As far as "marginally inferior" goes, I have yet to see anything in system mechanics showing the "overwhelming superiority" of the cleric in the same role, nor has anyone refuted the post regarding a mid to high level party with access to a variety of divinations being in a position to gather enough data about the location and its inhabitants to be able to prepare for the majority of encounters; and no one has showed a cleric that is a better combatant than a fighter specialized in the same fighting style (melee or ranged). If you want to be a "level-appropriate melee combatant," be a fighter; if you want to be a so-so melee combatant who can cast spells, there's not a lot of difference between a cleric and a prepared mystic theurge.

But thats if you build it starting at level 12 (and I'm not so sure that is accurate). Earning those levels means your spending most of your money in order to make and buy those scrolls, wands, etc. . ., not to mention that you are not counting all those wizard spells you probably want to buy to scribe, material components, the fact that when you trade in an item for a better one you are not getting full price value, and a lot of little things that already weigh-down the single class caster.

"wizard spells" - The wizard starts with all 0-level spells and 3+Int bonus 1st level spells and gains two additional spells per level of casting ability (all at no cost, see PF RPG pg. 79). A cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6 automatically has all 0-level, 5+Int bonus 1st level, 4 2nd level, 4 3rd level, 4 4th level, and 2 5th level spells of his choice, just from advancing in level. The spells I named are: 1st- enlarge person, shield, 2nd- blur, false life, 3rd- greater magic weapon, haste, heroism, 4th- stoneskin, 5th- overland flight. That still leaves 3+Int 1st level, 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level, 3 4th level, and 1 5th level spells to be determined.

"material components" - the material component cost for stoneskin was included in the scroll creation cost (as per the scribing rules). None of the other named spells requires costly material components, so a 5 gp Spell Component Pouch is all that's required.

"selling items at half value" - that is already a consideration factored into the Encounter Reward system and the Wealth By Level guidelines.

What level are these characters? I'm wondering, with those stats if they can honestly even cast their upper level spell slots. Unfortunatly, that MT just has no money to purchase (or make) a +Wis or + Int item, (and very likely has run the entire party into a deficet).

If the Wealth By Level guidelines are followed, the cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6 above still has almost 92,000 gp unallocated. Are you assuming that a 10,000 gp market price (5,000 gp creation cost) headband of mental prowess (+2 Int, +2 Wis) is unaffordable? Unless the campaign is using the Slow advancement rate, the mystic theurge can afford to re-scribe all of the scrolls and create/purchase additional items.

I think the overall point is that doing so consistantly is pretty unreliable and terribly noncost effective.

"Terribly noncost effective," now: The mystic theurge spent 11,817 gp, 5 sp on consumables; over the course of eight Average (Table 12-1, PF RPG pg. 397) encounters, the party earns (Table 12-5, PF RPG pg. 399) 48,000 gp using the Slow advancement rate (slightly better than breaking even, assuming a party of 4 and the use of all consumables), 72,000 gp using the Medium advancement rate (6,000 gp ahead), and 108,000 gp using the Fast advancement rate (15,000 gp ahead). It all depends on which advancement rate you use; if you are using the Slow advancement rate, then heavy use of consumables is not that useful, but it can be in the other two rates.

<ability scores>

Human Cleric: 12 Str (2 pts), 10 Dex (0 pts), 14 Con (5 pts), 8 Int (-2 pts), 16 Wis (5 pts; +2 racial bonus), 14 Cha (5 pts); switch Str and Dex for a bow-wielding cleric; all ability score advancements in Wis; favored class is cleric (+1 hp per level); skill ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and Use Magical Device.

Human Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge: 12 Str (2 pts), 10 Dex (0 pts), 14 Con (5 pts), 14 Int (5 pts), 15 Wis (3 pts; +2 racial bonus), 10 Cha (0 pts); switch Str and Dex for a bow-wielding cleric; split ability score advancements between Int (+2) and Wis (+3) over 20 levels; favored class is cleric (+1 skill rank per level); skill ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Linguistics (when Int hits 16), Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.

The problem with relying on buffs, in particular ones you pay for is sometimes you don't get a chance to apply them, or sometimes you burn resources when you don't need to. Buffing before an encounter starts is valid but it's only situationally good. You are essentially expending a bunch of resources to catch up to what a fighter can do out of the box.

Even if you can outdo the fighter in some situations where you have the time to buff your baseline is so much lower you are better focusing on things which are good at.

There's always The Final Wish cover. Although Jhavhul's character shot hides the gore on the front cover, the picture is reproduced in full in above the Table of Contents.

Although there's less gore, the art for Malebolgia in Book of the Damned, Vol. I, Princes of Darkness may help sate your ghoulish craving for violence. And speaking of ghoulish craving (from Carrion Hill)...

Bill Dunn wrote:

The real danger in common message board usage is belief that there's any single way to optimize. All optimization is toward a goal and all optimization involves some kind of trade-off. You can't optimize toward every goal when there are a sufficient number of choices available.

QFT.

However, "the goal" in creating a character can vary widely, depending on the individual, the type of character desired, and even the campaign (setting background/specific rules). Some people are very skilled at choosing the type of character and fitting the character into the campaign and system mechanics to meet "the goal." Some people are less skilled. Some deliberately weaken the character in terms of system mechanics to meet "the goal." Some define "the goal" purely in terms of system mechanics.

IMO, most of the conflict is more over "the goal" than the methods.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Of course, at level 16, the mystic theurge gains Spell Synthesis. So one level before the cleric can cast miracle, the mystic theurge is casting two spells with a single action (for example, a CL 15 flame strike for 15d6 and an Empowered fireball for 15d6, a Combined Spell version of black tentacles plus acid fog which the mystic theurge surrounds with a 20 ft radius blade barrier on the next round, etc.).

And the cleric has the high-level spell slots to be Quickening spells, whereas the MT mostly doesn't.

the real value of the MT is not scroll/wand access (which is had cheaply with a one-level dip or skill investment in UMD).

<blah blah blah>

Farabor wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

One more time: If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.

You have not refuted any system mechanic argument in this thread with anything other than GM fiat or playing style restrictions. Let us know when you actually want to discuss system mechanics, instead of just spouting off without proof.

I'm curious, can you cite a reference/reason why you believe the CR system has as a baseline assumption that you can cast minute per level buffs before each combat?

We seldom buff ourselfs before combat, because we seldom know when combat is comming. But then again some GM allow rogues to take 20 on perception ALL the time. Searching a room, cave or a whole dungeon using "take 20" is not really realistic, nor is buffing before every fight or even before most fights.
/IMHO

As far as CR system assuming 1 min per level buffs, it comes down to the original "resource use" definition in the 3.5 DMG on pg. 49-50, Easy, Easy if Handled Properly, Challenging, Very Difficult, and Overpowering. Easy- "The group should be able to handle an almost limitless number of these encounters." Easy if Handled Properly- "There's... a trick the PC's must discover to have a good chance of victory... If not handled properly, this kind of encounter becomes challenging or even very difficult." Challenging- "The average adventuring group should be able to handle four challenging encounters before they run low on spells, hit points, and other resources." (emphasis mine) Very Difficult- "One PC might very well die." Overpowering- "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose." The "[running] low on spells... and other resources" can come from expending buff spells, combat spells, healing spells, or all three; for some groups, it's one specific category; for others, it's all three. Considering that many of the 1 min per level buffs are 1st or 2nd level, those spell slots can often be more usefully expended as buffs than as combat or healing spells as you move into high level play. Also, various discussions on high level play state that the majority of encounters assume a prepared party. In fact, that's one of the key gripes about the CR system in high level play: it's "swingy;" a challenging encounter for a prepared party can easily result in a TPK against a party that hasn't had a chance to prepare fully; conversely, a challenging encounter for an un- (or under-) prepared party is a cakewalk for a prepared one.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

6. If you look closely at the new divine power you will notice the bonus is no longer from strength, it's a luck bonus to attack/damage rolls. This means a level 20 cleric wielding a greatsword gets a +6hit/+6damage, not +6hit/+9 damage. This means with a bow you get the same bonuses +6hit/+6 damage and don't have to have another mighty bow. This is I think the new best tactic for a damage dealing cleric. You can use a buckler with a bow and have really nice AC. With medium armor you're going to want a mithril breastplate and 20 dex(modified) which qualifies you for all the archery feats. I haven't tested it yet, but IMO will be very powerful.

I won't argue with you about archer clerics, though; cleric archers leave non-caster archers very far behind, as always.

To dungeonchess

You've suggested the fighter gets mithral gear. I agree that is a good tactic. I don't think it beats the overall versatiliy of the cleric, which is more powerful than the MT going back to the original thread. Being able to debuff enemies before slaughtering them I think is where the cleric pulls ahead of the fighter.

Anyway, the 12th level mystic theurge with Magical Knack (cleric) (cleric CL 11, wizard CL 9; access to 5th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells), Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery obtains the following gear: mithral breastplate for 4,200 gp and a primary combat weapon (probably a heavy mace or their deity's favored weapon). Next, the mystic theurge scribes the following scrolls: two magic vestment (CL 8) for 300 gp each (600 gp total), two freedom of movement (CL 9) for 450 gp each (900 gp total), two flame strike (CL 11) for 687 gp, 5 sp each (1,375 gp total), eight enlarge person (CL 6) for 75 gp each (600 gp total), eight shield (CL 6) for 75 gp each (600 gp total), eight blur (CL 6) for 150 gp each (1,200 gp total), two false life (CL 9) for 225 gp each (550 gp total), two greater magic weapon (wizard, CL 8) for 300 gp each (600 gp total), eight haste (CL 6) for 225 gp each (1,800 gp), two heroism (CL 9) for 337 gp, 5 sp each (675 gp total), two stoneskin (CL 9) for 700 gp each (1,400 gp total), two overland flight (CL 9) for 562 gp, 5 sp each (1,125 gp total), and one teleport (CL 9) for 562 gp, 5 sp (making sure that there is a "very familiar" location, such as a home church or sanctum, as a destination within 900 miles). So far, the mystic theurge has spent 16,017 gp, 5 sp (plus weapon cost) on gear, only about twice as much as the 8,517 (plus weapon cost) spent by the cleric; a difference of 7,500 gp out of 108,000 gp (if the Wealth by Level table is followed). The mystic theurge also has available duplicates of all long-term buffs, in case they are dispelled or run out, and the teleport scroll to instantly return the party to a safe location if necessary (with only a 3% chance of error).

The mystic theurge casts greater magic weapon, magic vestment on the mithral breastplate, and overland flight from a scrolls, preserving his prepared spell slots. On reaching the adventuring location/cave/dungeon, the mystic theurge casts false life, freedom of movement, heroism, and stoneskin from scrolls, again preserving his prepared spell slots.

The mystic theurge's baseline is AC 18+Dex bonus (and DR 10/adamantine) and an attack roll +10+Str or Dex bonus (+10/+5 on a full attack) with the weapon (damage X+4+Str bonus); the mystic theurge also has +1d10+9 (avg. 14-15) temporary hp, a +2 bonus on all skill checks, a +2 bonus to saving throws, flies at a speed of 40 ft, and retains all prepared spells. The cleric, to recap, has a baseline of AC 23+Dex bonus and an attack roll of 12+Str or Dex bonus (+12/+7 on a full attack) with the weapon (damage X+3+Str); the cleric has also expended two 5th level spells and two 4th level spells.

If given 18 seconds to prepare, up to 5 minutes before the start of a combat, the mystic theurge can cast blur, enlarge person, and shield from scrolls, giving him +4 AC (for AC 22+Dex bonus), +2 Str, -2 Dex, large size (dropping AC to 20+original Dex bonus), and an effect that causes 20% of all attacks to automatically miss; again, expending no prepared spells. At the start of every combat, the mystic theurge casts haste from a scroll (on himself and the rest of the party) for +1 AC (for AC 21+original Dex bonus), +1 on attack rolls (+11) and Ref saves (stacks with the +2 from heroism), an extra attack on a full attack (+11/+11/+6), and +30 ft to all movement (70 ft fly); since divine favor (a 1st level spell) still provides most of the same benefit as divine power (a 4th level spell) at CL 11, he also casts divine favor for +3 on attack rolls (+14 total or +14/+14/+9 on a full attack, plus original Str bonus, with a melee weapon; +12 total or +12/+12/+7, plus original Dex bonus, with a missile weapon) and damage (large weapon damage Y+8+original Str bonus; if the weapon is used with two hands, which the mystic theurge can do without losing the AC from the shield spell, that's Y+7+1.5 times total Str bonus). The cleric, recapping again, casts divine power to gain a +4 on attack rolls (+16 total, or +16/+11 on a full attack) and damage (X+7+Str bonus).

By preparing for each combat a few minutes ahead of time and spending one extra combat round to cast haste (benefiting the entire party), which the extra movement (70 ft for the hasted mystic theurge vs. 20 ft for the cleric wearing a breastplate) more than compensates for in most situations, the mystic theurge ends up with an AC of two less than the cleric (unless the cleric is punching enemies with his defending gauntlet, which reduces base weapon damage to 1d3 and reduces attack and damage bonuses for each "plus" used to boost AC), has DR 10/adamantine, has 20% of all attacks against him miss automatically (which more than compensates for a 10% greater chance of being hit from an AC of 2 less), hits 10% less often (20% less often with a missile weapon) per attack (but gets an extra attack at the highest bonus), and does more damage on a successful hit. Even if the cleric casts righteous might (a 5th level spell, of which the cleric only has two prepared slots left, plus a domain spell), the cleric is still about the same as the mystic theurge (except for movement, where the cleric doesn't even come close, even with air walk): AC 21+original Dex bonus for both, cleric DR 5/evil vs. mystic theurge DR 10/adamantine, cleric gains 24 hp vs. attacks against the mystic theurge automatically miss 20% of the time, cleric melee attack roll of +17 or +17/+12 (plus original Str bonus) or missile attack roll of +14 or +14/+9 (plus original Dex bonus) vs. mystic theurge melee attack roll of +14 or +14/+14/+9 (plus original Str bonus) or missile attack roll of +12 or +12/+12/+7 (plus original Dex bonus), cleric weapon damage of Y+9+original Str bonus vs. mystic theurge weapon damage of Y+8+original Str damage or Y+7+1.5 times total Str bonus).

This is one point I haven't raised explicitly, but deserves mention: I have been showing the mystic theurge as mainly using 1 minute/level spells only on the sorcerer/wizard list when preparing before each fight. The reason for this is to highlight the difference between the cleric and the mystic theurge. The cleric can use a variety of 1 min/level buffs to prepare before combat if he wishes (i.e., aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, etc.). However, the mystic theurge probably already has access to all of those spells (possibly even on both spell lists). Apart from a few combinations (such as antilife shell for an archer cleric), they either can be by both the cleric and the mystic theurge when preparing for a fight (having no effect on the relative "power level" between the two) or are high level spells that can't be cast for every fight (and the cleric is probably better off using one or more magic items to gain the same or equivalent effect, rather than expending limited spell slots).

Also note that once the cleric gets miracle at level 17 he can cast any spell the mystic theurge can at level 20.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

When people start recycling debunked arguments, you have to wonder about their reading comprehension. I have already addressed that 1 minute per level duration spells are supposed to be cast before initiative is even rolled.

And then you were laughed out of the room.

You have not refuted [b]any/b] system mechanic argument in this thread with anything other than GM fiat or playing style restrictions. Let us know when you actually want to discuss system mechanics, instead of just spouting off without proof.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Ahem. Who is the one who posted the following regarding divine power?

Someone who was talking about something relevant to this thread, in context, no doubt.

Ok we're going to take a level 12 non-multiclassed cleric (or magical knack cleric with 2 levels multi-classed), full casting and we'll see if you're right that he can't keep up with the fighter or mystic theurge.
assuming 12 cleric access to 6th level spells
Buckler 4 shield AC(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
breastplate(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
weapon(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
+1 defending gauntlet(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)

The cleric's AC is 23+Dex bonus weapon/buckler or 22+Dex bonus weapon/gauntlet and his total attack bonus is +12+Str bonus for a melee weapon (damage X+3+Str bonus) or +12+Dex bonus for a missile weapon (damage X+3; if the cleric uses a bow built for Str, then add the Str bonus), +11+Str bonus (+8 if using the defending ability) for the gauntlet (damage 1d3+3+half Str bonus; 1d3+0+half Str bonus if using the defending ability), full attacks with weapon for +12/+7 (plus Str or Dex bonus) or gauntlet for +11/+6 (plus Str bonus; +8/+3 if using defending) or with both weapon and gauntlet for +8/+3 and +3 (plus Str bonus; if the cleric has Two-Weapon Fighting, that improves to +10/+5 and +9 plus Str bonus; if using defending, reduce it to +0 or +6). Divine power adds +4 on attack rolls and damage for +16 or +16/+11 (plus Str or Dex bonus) with the weapon (damage X+7+Str bonus) and +15 or +15/+10 (plus Str bonus; +12 or +12/+7 if using defending) with the gauntlet (damage 1d3+7+half Str bonus; 1d3+4+half Str bonus if using defending).

Even if I'm misreading what you are intending, attacking with just a gauntlet while using the buckler, that's still AC 26+Dex bonus and total attack bonus of +13 or +13/+8 (plus Str bonus) if using defending (damage 1d3+4+Str bonus).

To buy these benefits would cost the fighter the price of the masterwork items + 9K for the +3 buckler, 9k for the +3 breastplate, 18k for the +3 weapon, and 50k for the gauntlet

So, the fighter's AC is 25+Dex bonus and has a total attack bonus of +19+Str bonus with his longsword (damage 1d8+9+Str bonus), +18+Str bonus with his shield (damage 1d8+6+Str bonus), full attacks with both longsword and shield for +19/+14/+9 longsword (plus Str bonus) and +18/+13 shield (plus Str bonus), and +14+Dex bonus with his bow (damage 1d8+2+Str bonus).

On the first round of combat, the fighter drinks a potion of haste, gaining +1 AC, +1 on attack rolls, an extra attack at his highest bonus with a full attack, and +30 ft of movement (60 ft total). He then can charge (moving up to 120 ft, gaining +2 on the attack roll and -2 to AC) and attack with a shield bash (gaining a +2 bonus on the free bull rush). Then, he starts full attacking with longsword (+20/+20/+14/+10 plus Str bonus) and shield (+19/+14 plus Str bonus), using the free bull rushes to shove his opponents around and set up AoOs. Alternately, if the opponents are flying, he can either attack with his bow or drink a potion of fly to engage in aerial battle. The potions of growth are used when facing tough opponents or when wishing to maximize AoO potential (reach + Combat Reflexes).

Do you want me to post an archer focused fighter to compare with the bow-using variant of your cleric above? Without any additional bonuses from feats or Weapon Training, and giving up a +1 on the weapon enhancement bonus, the fighter still has a total attack bonus of 2 less than the cleric with divine power and only does 5 points less damage per hit. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Training, in combination, grant the fighter 12 a +4 to attack rolls and +6 to damage rolls on their primary weapon choice.

Your MT is casting enlarge person. Second round Your MT is casting shield. Your MT is casting haste. Your MT is wondering what happened to all the enemies.

what I am boggled by, is why anybody would want to spend 5-6 spells trying to be frontline combatant when your party members are crying out for healing or fireballs.

If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. However, if you can't back them up with system mechanics, or they can be proven incorrect using the RAW, don't expect people to respect them.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

the fact that it's mechanically possible by the RAW is enough to disprove the premise "the mystic theurge cannot be an effective combatant."

Except that nobody but you has been arguing about that premise this entire time, and everyone has been pointing out to you "Those circumstances are really specific and unlikely so they don't really matter and unless you have those circumstances the MT blows at melee."

Theurges are not good at hitting people in the face and expending resources to try and do that is a bad idea as a theurge, nine times out of ten.

If what you meant was "the mystic theurge can't count on being able to buff up before every fight," I would have agreed; your statement reads more like "the mystic theurge sucks at combat and trying to fight with one is a complete waste of time."

Even without those pre-combat opportunities, the mystic theurge with false life and heroism up, in addition to magic vestment and greater magic weapon is not far behind the straight cleric (less than 10 hp difference on average between 8th-14th level and +1 behind on the attack bonus during 11th-14th level). Given that divine favor (+1 per three caster levels on attack rolls and damage rolls; max. +3) gives almost the same benefit as divine power (+1 per three caster levels on attack rolls, damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks; max. +6) until CL 12, the combat effectiveness is pretty much the same, too. At 9th level, the cleric gets righteous might, which is a bit nicer than enlarge person because of the DR; however, at 10th level the mystic theurge gets stoneskin.

Quote:

2) Your interpretation of CoDzilla (magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power) does not "outshine the fighter" in... blah blah blah

This would be the (bad) arguing about single-class comparisons to which I was referring.

they'd spend one round casting a buff to allow them to leave melee classes completely in the dust, then go ahead and smash faces.

I went back a page or two to find where people pointed out to him that heavy pre-battle buff stacking isn't the norm, but then I found a post where he suggested that someone might cast Bigby's Interposing Hand and got sidetracked by giggles.

Now shush, you're arguing (badly) about single-classed comparisons in a multiclassing thread.

1) Using the buffs available from both spell lists, the mystic theurge can be roughly equal to (or possibly better than, in some aspects) the cleric in combat ability at 8th-14th level. A mystic theurge can cast almost every buff the cleric can (and with the trait Magical Knack, which can be found in the free Traits PDF under Pathfinder Resources, the mystic theurge can cast them with almost the same CL) plus several additional buffs that stack. Whether it suits an individual player's style or the style of the group is a separate consideration; the fact that it's mechanically possible by the RAW is enough to disprove the premise "the mystic theurge cannot be an effective combatant."

2) Your interpretation of CoDzilla (magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power) does not "outshine the fighter" in pure combat ability (i.e., attack rolls, weapon damage, AC). Even the addition of righteous might does not make the cleric tremendously overpowered compared to a fighter with cheap potions of enlarge person. The analysis above disproves the premise "a fighter is overshadowed in combat ability by a cleric using just magic vestment, greater magic weapon, divine power, and righteous might."

Dragonchess Player wrote:

A somewhat clever (but only somewhat) comment that is completely irrelevant to the point: is pre-battle preparation the norm or the exception. Considering that all of the suggestions are about changing the way GMs operate, that's a strong indication that buffing before a battle is the norm.

You argument that pre-battle buffing is the norm consists of "People have offered reasons why pre-battle buffing doesn't work."

So, yeah.

If the party/someone in the party is constantly casting all his 1min/level buff spells in anticipation of combat, and ending up more powerful than the DM feels is balanced, the canny DM can quickly curtail this by simply creating fake combat threats.

Or by setting a faster pace, or by hiding enemies, or by threatening to have enemies prepare similarly if the party stands around playing with themselves or by sending skirmishers out or any number of other ways.

In fact, the CR system assumes that the party does prepare before most fights. This is one of the reasons that high level play is so "swingy."

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Magic vestment and greater magic weapon, by your own admission, provide enhancement bonuses equal to what a character of that level would have using the Wealth By Level guidelines (+2 at level 8, +3 at level 12, +4 at level 16, +5 at level 20). Net effect on combat ability (attack rolls, damage, AC)- none.

The point of these spells is that you cast them instead of spending money to gain these bonuses.

Convincing DCP is hopeless, but I hope nobody takes his bad advice on points such as this.

We're discussing the straight combat ability of a cleric compared to an equal level fighter. The point is that magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power only make the cleric roughly equal to a fighter of the same level (and actually slightly behind when it comes to using their primary weapon choice).

I am not arguing that these spells are worthless. What I am arguing is that these spells by themselves do not make the cleric a better combatant than a fighter. Even adding righteous might, the cleric is not tremendously more powerful than a fighter who drinks a potion of enlarge person (a 50 gp item!) at the start of each fight.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Curious that all of the ways that people have put forth to prevent pre-battle buffing start with the GM changing the way they run things, then...

It does not impress the ladies if you need to stand there playing with yourself for half a minute to get it up.

Try to keep your posts meaningful to the discussion.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

Divine power > weapon training

Perhaps. But the cleric starts far enough behind the fighter that divine power simply gets the cleric close to the fighter's combat ability. Consider that at its best (18th level) divine power gives +6 on attack and damage rolls; that's just enough, with Weapon Focus, to put the cleric's attack bonus (+13+6+1=+20) on par with an equal level fighter that has Greater Weapon Focus (+18+2=+20); the fighter also gets to add up to +4 on top of that from Weapon Training (+20+4=+24). Similarly, the +6 damage from divine power lags behind the fighter with Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training (+4+4=+8).

You are incorrect on the power level of a cleric. He gets up in the morning, straps on his armor his buckler and gets out his bow. He pops out 2 extended magic vestments and an extended greater magic weapon and now his mundane armor buckler and weapon have the bonuses of about max what a character of that level should find. He invests that enchantment money in useful items. When he gets in a fight He casts divine power and gives himself a luck bonus to hit and damage that stacks with his enhancement bonus. Add righteous might and now he has DR and natural armor added as well, and here's the deal, when the cleric casts divine power on himself, he enhances HIMSELF. The fighter has only one type of weapon, when the cleric switches from ranged to melee, he still has the benefit. Versatility is why the cleric is so powerful, not dropping everything into critical feats and improved critical kukri and blinding everything you come across.

Edit: oops I forgot he can greater magic weapon his +1 defending armor spikes when he gets up.

As shown above, divine power just allows the cleric to get close on attack rolls (at best, +1 over the fighter's BAB; with Weapon Training, the fighter will have at least as good of a chance to hit, even before calculating ability bonuses and feats) and possibly an advantage on damage (depending on how many weapons the fighter has taken the Weapon Specialization or other damage boosting feats for and which weapon the fighter uses). Net effect- it depends on the circumstances; the cleric may have an advantage when you get to third and fourth choices of weapons, but the fighter will most likely have the advantage with the first and second choices.

Righteous might is a decent spell, but the fighter can get the most important benefit from potions of enlarge person at 50 gp each: large size (reach, increased weapon damage). Righteous might grants +4 Str (size), -2 Dex (size), +4 Con (size), +2 natural armor (enhancement), and DR 5/evil (10/evil after 15th level). Enlarge person grants +2 Str (size) and -2 Dex (size). However, the fighter will almost definitely have higher base Str and Dex and possibly a higher base Con (a bit of a wash) and both will almost definitely be wearing an amulet of natural armor (which grants an enhancement bonus; i.e., doesn't stack with the bonus from righteous might). The DR is nice, but isn't overwhelmingly powerful in comparison to an adamantine breastplate (+10,000 gp, DR 2/-), adamantine full plate (+15,000 gp, DR 3/-), a 1 time per day stoneskin item (22,580 gp, DR 10/adamantine), a ring of spell storing with stoneskin cast into it by a friendly wizard (50,000 gp plus 530 gp for spellcasting and material component), or a ring of regeneration (90,000 gp, regenerate 1 hp per round). Depending on the opponents, the DR x/evil can be either useful (no evil-aligned weapons or supernatural evil creatures using natural attacks) or meaningless (evil casters with align weapon, unholy weapons, supernatural evil creatures bypass it). Even at 15th level and up, the benefit is uneven (better when it works, but opponents that are able to bypass it are more common). Meanwhile, the fighter gets Armor Mastery (DR 5/-) as a class ability at 19th level. Net effect- slight advantage to the cleric on defense, depending on the circumstances.

I will say it again: CoDzilla was never just about long term buffs and divine power/righteous might. It was about long term buffs and short term buffs capped off with divine power/righteous might.

It requires contrived circumstances to allow min/level pre-buffing, not contrived circumstances to prevent it.

Basically, DCP is assuming that there's some value in being able to stand around casting scrolls on yourself, and that this is worth two feats, some traits (whatever those are), and three levels, instead of just using UMD.

I would suggest taking his advice with a very large grain of salt.

It's just a playing style. I never stated it's the "one true way," but rather a way to get certain results within the RAW.

Enchanted armor gives more of an AC benefit (both on a per cost and a maximum possible basis) than bracers or robes. Spending a feat or two to help maximize your AC while still allowing you to cast arcane spells without a chance of failure is a trade-off; acceptable for some, unacceptable for others, and vital to a character that wants to cast and fight.

Casting scrolls you prepare yourself (at 1/2 market price) doesn't require Use Magic Device checks (which require some pretty hefty DCs, so success isn't necessarily a given*). It's a relatively inexpensive way to expand the number and type of spells you can cast per day (another trade-off; increased versatility and spell uses for less money invested in permanent items).

*-especially since, per PF RPG pg. 109, "You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check." Let us know at what level your cleric has a +18 total on Use Magical Device checks, so that he has a 95% success chance on the easiest (DC 20) uses of the skill.

Seabyrn wrote:

What would you do in that situation (flying, wind-wall casting opponent)? Let the fighter lose interest in the game completely? Tell him/her to play a wizard next time if he/she wants to have fun?

Redesign the game so that players don't sit out the game because they picked the wrong class.

Heck, throw in a potion of invisibility (300 gp) or a ring of invisibility (20,000 gp) and the fighter can play the "flying, invisible opponent" game that some wizards are so fond of, too... and they can deal a lot of damage at high level when they full attack a single target; even more after using a simple potion of enlarge person (50 gp).

The caster level issue can be mitigated (in one class) by the use of the Magical Knack feat

Even under those conditions and with all the GP needed for wands and scrolls, I honestly think any straight caster (maybe not the Bard?) would still be better served than multiclassing. For their spells, the duration and additional level based affects are generally better than the extra different spells, and for scrolls and wands, one level of wizard (if your a cleric) does pretty much the same thing, but you are not taking the greater BaB, Saves, and HP hit. Depending on the classes, possibly also skills and feats. But also the few class features. In my experience, it just isn't worth it, and is also a lot harder just to survive until the level you can actually get into MT, that the lack of later insentive at that point makes me want to just kill the character off.

Age of Worms spoiler below

Quote:

"I can't win the argument without redefining it, so I declare it meaningless."

Thank you for playing.

I believe his argument is (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you've declared the Mystic Theurge "good" at something that all casters (including even the worst of casters) are good at. That is, the situation where they have several rounds to cast spells before immediately entering combat. If you have several rounds to cast short term buffs every fight, then yes, the Mystic Theurge is as good as the other casters and can probably do it slightly longer than the party can continue on that day.

But also keep in mind that any party willing to pay what you've claimed your Mystic Theurge can pay per fight can do the same thing he can *and* be a useful contribution to the party. And by any party I'm obviously excluding the all non-caster, no-UMD having partys. I thought I'd point that out though since other obvious points seemed to have been missed along the way in this thread.

Where CoDzilla really gets its power is from the ability to stack long-term buffs and short-term buffs like other casters, and then cast divine power and righteous might in combat. It's in the stacking of long-term and short term buffs that the mystic theurge has an advantage, because their access to two different spell lists allows them to find more spells with effects that stack. The caster level issue can be mitigated (in one class) by the use of the Magical Knack feat (the +2 caster level means the mystic theurge is only one caster level behind in that class, instead of three); if you want the mystic theurge to be able to CoDzilla, then cleric is the obvious choice for the Magical Knack.

Finally, who said the party was paying for the mystic theurge to buff him/herself? If the mystic theurge uses scrolls of shield (scribe cost 12 gp, 5 sp per minute) from 8th-11th level, instead of the +1 animated heavy wooden shield (market price 9,157 gp) that the cleric uses for the same AC bonus (with a casting of magic vestment), that frees up plenty of funds for other scrolls. The mystic theurge could ask for (and the rest of the party might even agree) the group to split the cost of the scrolls of haste, since the entire party benefits from those. A mystic theurge could also take the Craft Wand feat and ask for the group to split the cost of wands of cure light wounds (used to heal all party members), which many parties do, and wands of various buff spells (to be cast on all party members before combat), which increases the combat ability of the entire party.

Someone implied that driving a motorcycle isn't dangerous if you know what you're doing. I disproved it.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

Zark wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]

What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.

wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.

Belt of physical perfection (+6), divine power, and righteous might is still a pretty nasty combination: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, up to +6 (at CL 18) on attack rolls and damage rolls (on top of normal bonuses from Str/Dex), large size. The thing to keep in mind is that a cleric 18 has a BAB of +13 vs. a fighter with a BAB of +18; plus, the fighter has all sorts of feats and Weapon Training, so a fighter with the same belt and a potion of enlarge person can probably be just about as effective (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, large size; the fighter probably has a higher base Str and Dex, also).

Divine power > weapon training

Dragonchess Player wrote:

They are designed to be cast while preparing for a fight, instead of after initiative is rolled.

At which point casters win every fight where they are allowed to prepare like this, even if they're bards or adepts.

I completely understand that this is what you are saying and I've understood it the entire time. I've denied that it is practical or that it matters or that being better at it is terribly useful.

Thank you for playing.

The part of VoN/VoPeace that got me was the "if anyone kills a helpless target within 120 feet of you they take -1 morale penalty to attack for 1 hour per each level the Vow's holder has as they are wracked with remorse, no save, which stacks with itself and resets its duration to the beginning if they do it again". Somehow I can't see the NE bounty-hunter ninja or the LN Whisper Gnome with "Profession: Assassin" ranks as being wracked with remorse over much of anything, much less doing so with no save.

Just because someone is NE or an assassin, doesn't mean they lack emotions or even compassion/love (possibly limited to a small group or a single individual). People are much more complex than that.

Scott Betts wrote:

Talek & Luna wrote:

I am sorry that you have such a self loathing for your fighters because they don't have the "flashy, sparkly powers" of spellcasters. I never treat my martial companions like hired help. They are invaluable allies. That would be like the QB dissing his offensive line in football. Who cares how great you are if no on blocks for you.

Fighters in 3.5 were given no way to "block" anyone. In that respect they are worth little more than a peasant with a sword and shield. Furthermore, no spellcaster worth his salt needs blocking. Past 7th level, the spellcaster is flying, is invisible most of the time, and has any number of magical protections that completely obviate the need for a meatshield to stand in front of him.

Monsters don't care about fighters. Why should the spellcasters rely on them when not even the monsters view them as a real threat?

They do block monsters because moving past a fighter porvokes AOO'S. I don't think most monsters appreciate 2D6+6 damage at low levels and I don't think they appreciate it at high levels. Plus monsters that just run by fighters tend to set them up for flansk and sneak attacks from other party memebr.

In addition to that most dungeons do not have ridiculously large rooms that allow for mobility every single time. Even when they do that monster is spending it's time moving around the fighter, thus the fighter is a problem for it.

In Pathfinder, a fighter has the feats Stand Still and Shield Slam (a free bull rush with a shield bash). With Combat Reflexes, a fighter can even block more than one opponent.

Dennis Harry wrote:

He roleplayed it brilliantly quite frankly and there was a LOT of tension with other party members over their use of violence. However, when someone has a Vow of Peace their companions dealing lethal damage does not (or at least in my opinion) should not break that players vow. There should certainly be a great deal of roleplaying generated from other party members that do use lethal damage around the character with Vow of Peace though.

A character that does nothing to restrain the use of violence and death by his comrades has broken his Vow of Peace. A character who continues to associate with wilfully violent comrades also has broken his Vow. The Vow offers some very powerful benefits, those benefits come at a price of a set of restrictions intended to be more of a constraint than even a Paladin's code.

Please read the section Waging Peace (pg. 31), as well.

All I meant was I never see these situations in games I've ran or played, even with players who know what DR a monster has, they "forget" until such a time the characters learn what needs to be done.

Arcana - constructs, dragons, magical beasts
Dungeoneering - aberrations, oozes
Nature - fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin
Religion - undead
The Planes - elementals, outsiders

A check against a DC (10 + monster's HD) reveals a useful fact ("special powers or vulnerabilities"), even if the character is personally unfamiliar with the creature/thing. By the time the game moves into high level play, the characters should be familiar enough with general classes (constructs, demons, devils, fey, lycanthropes, skeletal vs. fleshed undead, etc.) to plan ahead. See my post above: a bludgeoning adamantine weapon for constructs and skeletal undead, a cold iron slashing weapon for fey, demons, and fleshed undead, silversheen and an alchemical silver dagger for devils and lycanthropes, etc. will cover almost all of the bases. Specific cases (silver for some types of undead, align weapon, etc.) can still be an issue, but aren't that difficult to adjust for.

Stewart Perkins wrote:

I must say that just because Book of ED is in, does NOT automatically say that Savage Species to be in. Most groups use what they have. While I may have access to a Savage Species doesn't mean every game group does. If a member of my group picked it up then it is available, with specific approval. My point is, just because there is a "counterbalance" in some other book doesn't make a feat not broken or not a problem or what have you.

Nitpicking doesn't alter the fundamental point that Monks are strongly gear-dependent, even though they don't typically use weapons or armor. Vow of Poverty removes a vast array of magic items that they depend on to get by.

What you need to watch out for is the Vow of Poverty monk who takes the Leadership feat for a cohort that exists simply to cast various buffs and utility spells on the monk.

Secondly I honestly have never seen a monk played using the fighter golf bag of weapons trick. I know that alot of us plan for these things and resort to that, but most people just don't.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Deflection attempt failed.

Falling off a motorcycle moving at 55 mph is dangerous and can result in broken bones, severe bleeding, amputation, or even death. In game terms, operating a vehicle is a skill. By your interpretation, the only people who would be able to operate a motorcycle at 55 mph without making a skill check every 6 seconds...

I guess the guy in my class that drove his motorcycle into a telephone pole and split his head in two breaking his neck and back didn't know about that rule.

I also think it's in poor taste to bring up a tragic real world event in an attempt to "win" an argument over game mechanics that you are losing on logic.

Dragonchess, no offense man, but I think the Man in Black clearly has you beat.

So far, he seems to base his whole argument against the mystic theurge on casting 1 min/level buffs during combat (which I have repeatedly debunked) and an inflated sense of the effectiveness of divine power (which really only levels the battlefield between the cleric and the fighter).

Zark wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]

What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.

wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

both also have the same physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)

No they don't, the theurge can't dump int or cha.

But as long as you're talking about "times per day," you're still not getting it.

CoDzilla outshined the fighter for the entire working day, little to no maintenance required.

On top of this, they'd spend one round casting a buff to allow them to leave melee classes completely in the dust, then go ahead and smash faces.

Your theurgezilla stands there at the start of the fight casting buffs on himself for four rounds. The party shouldn't even give him any loot, he just stood there playing with himself.

"Outshined the fighter for the entire day?" Until the cleric gains righteous might, the best that divine favor/divine power allows is to equal the fighter (remember, the cleric is giving up +2 BAB on the fighter at 5th-8th, +3 at 9th-12th, +4 at 13th-16th, etc.). Righteous might can only be cast a few times per day (and the need to decide between air walk, divine power, freedom of movement, and greater magic weapon when preparing 4th level spell slots limits the number of castings of divine power), so the best that can be said about CoDzilla is that the cleric can outshine the fighter some of the time and equal the rest of the time, which is still plenty.

You are still ignoring the fact that 1 min/level spells are cast before combat, not during. They are designed to be cast while preparing for a fight, instead of after initiative is rolled. Before combat even starts (i.e., the door is kicked down/initiative is rolled), the mystic theurge casts their 1 min/level buffs (as long as the party is not surprised; the straight cleric is admittedly better in surprise situations). In combat (i.e., at the start of combat), the mystic theurge casts haste and divine favor/divine power, which is the same economy of actions as a cleric casting divine favor/divine power and righteous might.

The main difference between a straight cleric CoDzilla and a mystic theurge CoDzilla is the mystic theurge needs to plan better, instead of just "winging it."

You continue to compare many small buffs which are not worth casting in combat with large buffs which are, and persist in comparing everything to the weakest of the big three cleric in-combat self-buffs.

Also, Blur is one of the most underutilized buffs because it is really bad. It is at least the sixth-worst second-level core sorc/wiz defensive buff spell that is seriously how bad it is.

And please explain to me how having 20% of all attacks against you automatically miss, regardless of the number of attacks against you or the number of attacks you make, is "really/seriously bad." As a defensive buff it's far from horrible, especially considering the way attack bonuses increase faster than AC bonuses moving into high-level play; that 20% miss chance applies regardless of the hit chance based on attack bonus vs. AC (i.e., a creature attacking someone they can hit on any roll except a 1 would still automatically miss on 20% of their attacks, before they even get to make an attack roll). I can see where mirror image is preferable, but it's also Range: Personal (which means only the caster can benefit, they can't apply it to other party members). Invisibility is a great defensive spell, but ends as soon as you attack another creature (which drastically curtails its usefulness in combat apart from setting up one surprise attack or covering a retreat; some very specific concepts like a summon monster specialist or a "buff/heal only" caster will find a lot of use out of it in combat).

Dragonchess Player wrote:

the mystic theurge can CoDzilla more times per day

>:|

As long as you're still here, you still don't get it.

8th level - the cleric can cast divine power 2 times per day (assuming an 18+ Wis with one slot used for greater magic weapon; if the cleric wants air walk or freedom of movement, those each take another 4th level spell slot) for +2 on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks and divine favor up to 5 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls; the mystic theurge can cast divine favor 4 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and damage rolls, has scribed four scrolls of divine favor (CL 6) (75 gp each; 300 gp total) for +2 on attack rolls and damage rolls, can cast shield 4 times per day for +4 AC, and has scribed four scrolls of shield (CL 5) (62 gp, 5 sp each; 250 gp total) for +4 AC. Analysis: The cleric can CoDzilla for a maximum of 7 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and damage; the mystic theurge can CoDzilla for 8 times per day for +3 on attack rolls, +2 on damage rolls, +2 Str, a second attack on a full attack action at full bonus (not at -5 as an iterative), is large size and moves at 60 ft in combat, and has better saves and skill checks.
9th level - the cleric can cast righteous might 2 times per day (assuming a 20+ Wis; possible with a 16+ Wis at 1st, both advancements, and a headband of inspired wisdom (+2)) and divine favor/divine power up to 8 times per day (with 20 + Wis) for +3 on attack and damage rolls; the mystic theurge is mostly the same (can prepare an additional 2nd and 3rd level spell as both cleric and wizard). Analysis: The cleric can perform slightly better in some ways than the mystic theurge for two fights per day (+4 Str and DR 5/evil vs. +2 Str, a second attack at normal bonus, and 60 ft movement), but is still behind the mystic theurge for the other six fights (medium size vs. +2 Str and large size).
10th level - the cleric can cast righteous might 3 times per day and divine favor/divine power up to 9 times per day (assume 8, with one 4th level slot used for freedom of movement) for +3 on attack and damage rolls; the mystic theurge can cast stoneskin (250 gp per casting) up to 2 times per day (assuming an effective 18+ Int; possible with a 15+ Int at 1st, one advancement, and a headband of mental prowess (+2 Int/Wis)) for DR 10/adamantine and can cast divine favor/divine power up to 7 times per day (assuming an effective 18+ Wis; possible with a 15+ Wis at 1st, one advancement, and a headband of mental prowess (+2 Int/Wis)) for +3 on attack and damage rolls (assume 6, with one 4th level slot used for freedom of movement; the mystic theurge also scribes 2 scrolls of divine favor (CL 9) for 225 gp and 1 scroll of air walk for 350 gp). Analysis: The cleric gains a slightly better Str for three fights (+4 vs +2), but underperforms the mystic theurge in other factors (DR, second attack, movement) and seriously underperforms the mystic theurge in the five other fights.

Should I continue? Heck, I'll even be generous and substitute a +1 animated heavy mithral shield (10,030 gp) for the mystic theurge instead of using shield spells, if it will make you feel better.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I'm going to say on this one that falling would be dangerous and thus you can't take 10 on a climb check when failure would result in you taking damage. If it's not dangerous you wouldn't be scared to roll the dice. If you had a +19 climbing a dc 20 wall wouldn't be dangerous, but if you add a little ice and raise it to DC 22 it would be dangerous again til you had a +21 climb check.

So, you can't take 10 unless you can succeed (mathematically) on a roll of "1?" The only time you can take 10 is when the only reason you'd fail at all is from the 1's automatic failure?

That's completely perverting the intent of taking 10. There's a huge difference between being "in immediate danger" and doing something that could be dangerous. Hop on a motorcycle without a helmet and take it up to 55 mph. As long as you don't do anything crazy, follow the traffic laws, and keep track of what's going on around you (taking 10), you'll probably be fine (barring a freakish occurrence), even with only a moderate amount training and experience. The way you're interpreting the rule, you'd have to make a check every six seconds to keep from losing control and killing yourself.

That's not what I said at all. You might want to work on your reading skills. I said if you can fall and hurt yourself it is dangerous and thus you have to roll your skill check. You don't have to roll and can take 10 if you'r not in danger. Falling and breaking your neck is dangerous. Also I think rolling dice while riding a motorcycle would be dangerous, but could make a good youtube video.

Falling off a motorcycle moving at 55 mph is dangerous and can result in broken bones, severe bleeding, amputation, or even death. In game terms, operating a vehicle is a skill. By your interpretation, the only people who would be able to operate a motorcycle at 55 mph without making a skill check every 6 seconds would be highly trained people with a +9 skill check modifier (for a simple DC 10). Heck, anyone driving a car at 55 mph while not wearing a seatbelt would be in the same situation. There are plenty of traffic accidents, but not that many (rolling every 6 seconds would result in at least one accident per driver for every minute spent driving at 55 miles per hour, on average). Considering many of the yahoos on the road, can you seriously tell me that every single one of them has the equivalent of a +9 or better on their Drive skill?

Dragonchess Player wrote:

So, the only real difference between the cleric and the mystic theurge is at 7th level and lack of freedom of movement until 10th level. In return, the mystic theurge can cast a bunch of short-duration buffs

You lose 2-3 BAB, 2 HP-ish a level, and 5 AC/two feats, and you don't get comparable combat mojo back for it. (Heroism offsets the BAB some but it's level 10 before you can extend it, False Life offsets the HP somewhat.).

As stated, the mystic theurge has greater magic weapon and magic vestment at 8th level, so is almost exactly the same as the cleric from 8th to 14th level (the cleric can have an extra +1 on attack rolls during 11th to 14th levels and gets a +3 bonus with greater magic weapon and magic vestment at 12th level instead of 13th for the mystic theurge with Magical Knack, that's about it). From that equivalent starting point, the mystic theurge can add blur (20% of all attacks miss), haste (the best party enhancing combat buff), fire shield (any creature that hits you in melee takes damage, increasing your damage dealing ability as a main combatant; if I want to sit back and cast damage spells, I have fireball, etc. from the sorcerer/wizard list and flame strike at 12th level), interposing hand (+4 AC from cover against one opponent, stacks with everything else, prevents AoOs), overland flight (which is a better spell than air walk; 1 hour/level vs. 10 min/level and 40 ft flight vs. "normal movement" of 30 ft), stoneskin (10 min/level and DR 10/adamantine is more useful than DR 5/evil against most typical enemies), etc. A cleric may be able to gain some of these from domain spells, but the mystic thurge can cast them all.

The point of these buffs isn't to cast all of them before or in every combat (although a some, like blur, divine favor/divine power, enlarge person/righteous might, and haste should be staples), but to mix and match these additional buffs to the situation at hand to increase the effectiveness of straight CoDzilla. Personally, I'll take the time in between adventures to prepare myself with some relatively cheap consumable items (scrolls and wands), spend a few actions immediately before combat whenever possible to buff myself and the rest of the party (blur is one of the most underutilized buff spells in most groups, IMO; 4 charges from a wand of blur cost 450 gp to craft and give the entire party 20% more staying power vs. all attacks for that combat), and one extra round to cast haste.

Also, by using low-level and/or long term equivalents (i.e., stoneskin for DR and enlarge person for size in place of righteous might), the mystic theurge can CoDzilla more times per day (at slightly lower power) than the straight cleric, saving the high-powered versions for the tougher fights. How many times per day can a straight cleric cast righteous might vs. the number of times a mystic theurge can cast enlarge person (without even considering a cheap scribed scroll) or righteous might? The CoDzilla cleric still requires divine favor/divine power and possibly righteous might in each combat, so don't try to pretend the straight cleric isn't "touching up their makeup" for each fight just as often as the mystic theurge.