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Danse Macabre

DrDeth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 6,107 posts (6,108 including aliases). 18 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.

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bbangerter wrote:

And its a very fair point for them to make, particularly the GM. We have your side of the story, but as I mentioned in my first post, there is a lot of context we don't have. You've given us what you are able, but the GM's side of the story would provide a lot more. Something you should ask yourself, "Do you trust this GM to make your paladin falling an enjoyable, and good story point?" Or do you feel the GM is simply being malicious?

, "Do you trust this GM to make your paladin falling an enjoyable, and good story point?"

There is no such thing- unless the player agrees before hand.

Do you trust your Dm that destroying your wizards spellbook will make a enjoyable, and good story point?"

Do you trust your Dm that cutting off your rogues fingers will make a enjoyable, and good story point?"

Do you trust your Dm that making your fighter a parplegic will make a enjoyable, and good story point?"

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No, your DM is totally wrong.

Find another group.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Trigger Loaded wrote:

I can never seem to find a good-fitting pair of pants. (Trousers, for those across the pond.)

I have pants that when I put them on in the morning, they feel snug, possibly even tight. But if I don't wear a belt with them (Which I seem to forget/think I 'won't need it' frequently) I'll be hiking my pants up all afternoon, or else walking around with my pants around my knees. And it's rapidly becoming winter up here in Canada.

Cotton stretches as you wear it. I suggest suspenders. :-)

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mark, about Warpriest Sacred weapon damage.

But what is the purpose of this? I mean, I guess if you have a Warpriest wielding a kukri or a dagger it can help, but it confuses the heck out of the one guy I know who runs one.

How, exactly was this meant to work?

Not asking for a rules answer, just how did the designers/writers expect it to work?

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The Sacred Weapon gives a flat dice damage value of the weapon based on 2 and ONLY 2 factors, the size category and the level of the warpriest[b]. What the weapon is irrelevant. The warpriest has the choice of either using the sacred weapon value [b]OR the native weapon value.

I agree. But what the %$#@! is the purpose of this? I mean, I guess if you have a Warpriest wielding a kukri or a dagger it can help, but it confuses the heck out of the one guy I know who runs one.

I know the devs didnt design this with the idea of using the wrong sized weapons, so that's a red herring, even if it is legal by RAW (which I doubt). But that's a side argument.

How, exactly was this meant to work?

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Abaraii wrote:

These are my GM new house rules

are you ravingdorks DM??

Otherwise why Necro this SIX YEAR OLD thread?

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BigDTBone wrote:

Scientific papers was an example I gave because DrDeth tossed out the ole "you haven't done so fallacy.

Scientific papers are different than fiction are different from technical manuals are different from legal briefs and are different from game manuals.

I have co-authored three papers, two game supplements, a couple of briefs, a couple of short stories, a government internal report (Civil Grand Jury investigation) and quite a few internal desk manuals.

Each calls for an entirely different style of writing. If Paizo wrote their game guides like my scientific papers, they'd both have about the same readership....nearly zero. (I am not sure if even all my co-authors read all of the papers they put their name to...) ;-)

So, yeah, if you havent done it , it's OK to criticize but not to say it's easy.

I found writing gaming stuff damn hard. And, it was really bad, too.

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Context really doesn't matter for a general question

Context can matter quite a lot, as not every question has an answer that applies in all variations of the question.

Why are you so reluctant to spell out the issue in depth?

The question is as basic as "Does Pathfinder have a rule for jumping?". You don't need context for why I want to jump, or where. Only that, yes, jumping is a rule.

The question is, "Do you have to use the benefit section of a feat you have? Or can you ignore it when you choose?" Not, "how do you rule this one feat". It is a question relating to ALL feats.

No, because no one would want a PHB edited by a team of lawyers, being 6" think and costing $500. The Devs are human, they left some stuff out when it was just plain common sense.

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Dire Elf wrote:

2. A wuxia campaign (for those who don't know that term, wuxia is Chinese martial arts fiction). Imagine Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Once Upon a Time in China, or any Shaw Brothers flick from the '70s). The PCs would all be disciples of the same martial arts master or members of the same organization, trying to recover a stolen manual of martial arts secrets and defeat the evil sect leader who killed their master.

I had a primo mobility based tank, a Warblade/monk, with maxed Acrobatics. We watched a wuxia film once, and everyone was going "Kane could do that.... Kane could do that, also. Not even Kane could do that!". It was fun.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Skeld wrote:

I don't get why people try to drive a wedge between "old school gamers" and "modern gamers." I started gaming in 1985 and I run games basically the same as I did then. The mechanics are different, but we had different games with different mechanics back then, too.

The things that have changed for me are:
Time - I have a lot less of it, so I leverage published adventures/campaigns instead of creating my own stuff;
Money - I have a lot more of it and I can afford to buy gaming books, miniatures, maps, tools, etc.;
Technology - I have a tablet that I can store all my books on and access the internet.

Beyond that, I still use pens/pencils, paper, dice, and imagination. That's like 95% of it.

Same here, but I started in 1974.

Oh there have been a few small changes, but it's about the same.

Pathfinder has given up on the diabolical Gygaxian traps that we loved back in the old days. I miss those.

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BretI wrote:

In my experience, large gaps in character power lead to TPKs.

If what the game master has to use in order to challenge one character will wipe out every other character in the group, there is most likely a problem. Some groups might still be alright if they aren't looking for challenging encounters, but it is likely someone at the table will feel useless.

The details may change based on game system, but this problem is not unique to Pathfinder.

Yes, this is a issue.

If you have a group of Optimizers, playing "rocket tag'- as long as they are having fun, more power to them! For them, they are certainly playing the game "right".

If you have a group of low op Roleplayers- and they are having fun- For them, they are certainly playing the game "right".

But mixing the two can be bad.

Like one time the DM let a player do a Vampire in out 3.5 game. With that +8 LA, any game that was a normal challenge for the party, he'd just walk thru.

But other stuff- like a walk across the wilds by day- was not easily surmountable.

It's tough both on the player sand DM to have a issue like this.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Oh, thank goodness. I'd miss the lil' bugger.

I missed him too, but that was due to his small size......


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:

To me there's three classifications of optimization.

1. There's the people who couldn't care how powerful they are. They just make something they feel might be fun.

2. There's people who try to make as good of a character as they can, within reason. Such people, and I put myself in this category too, view roleplay to be just as important as character effectiveness. Thus they may make objectively bad choices just because it's something their character would do.

3. There's the people who try to squeeze every possible erg of power from the game. They spend vast amounts of time theory crafting and studying the game. They try finding all the little loop holes and how to minimize any drawbacks they might have.

4. The player who has a fun concept, but makes sure his PC can fully contribute to the team.

I agree, #3 is hard to play with, unless the whole table is that way.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Johnnycat93 wrote:

I've seen snarky comments one way or another, but I've never seen anything that can truly be described as "demoralizing a power gamer".


Yes, I have never seen anything close to "a lot of people mistreat players who want to optimize their character's."

Snark, some condescending remarks maybe, but I would say those are mistreating.

And of course, some give RPers a little bit of a hard time, too.

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I have a little grey on the sides but not much* on top.

* hair, that is! ;-)

1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Yes, the shield bonus remains, since you still have to hit him where his shield aint.

You might as well say the Goblin should lose his armor bonus as there are places not covered by his armor and you'd hit there.

That's not really how shields work. They're an active defence. You block with them.

Not in D&D.

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Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Were there ever printed rules to describe how thieves vs. non-thieves interacted with tasks that appear on the thief skill list, like the one you mention? 'Cause I can see DMs ruling them several different ways...I wonder how the mechanics worked for DrDeth's thief(s)?

Thieves had skills in slots like wizards had spells. They fought on the cleric chart, ie, second best.

So, a level one skill slot might be "pick locks". This would allow the Original Thief to simply do so. Period. No rolls needed, and over and over. Other characters had to break down the door or use a spell. Disarm simple trap.

Higher skills slots might be "Pick magical locks". Disarm complex trap. Even higher might be disarm magical trap- I think that was a 3rd level ability.

Now sure, the DM could ask the player to play it out or even say "This trap is so fiendishly complicated I will require a roll".

But it made opening routine doors and disarming simple traps very quick and easy.

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Quark Blast wrote:

One (very early) experience with 3.PF - my rogue PC successfully snuck up behind a goblin, who was watching the battle elsewhere, and the GM gave the goblin his shield bonus to AC because "facing doesn't matter according to the rules". Also, because the goblin was already (technically) part of the battle, he had a slot on the initiative order and so, even though my rogue got the first attack, there was no surprise attack on the part of my rogue because (technically) the goblin wasn't surprised!

That same goblin, believing himself to be safely out of melee, is no easier to hit in total surprise from behind than if my dwarf was standing in front of him shouting a warning challenge before engaging in combat.

Really? Yep, really. The goblin even retained his shield bonus against the (theoretical) surprise attack!

That's just dumb. What's the point of the rogue's sneak and hide skills if your opponent's AC remains the same?

Well, if the goblin didnt see you, you were "invisible" thus sneak attack.

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Sissyl wrote:
So you're the guy responsible for all the underpowered rogues out there? =)

Naw, that's Paizo, pre Unchained. ;-)

The Thief was pretty powerful and very very necessary, esp in those days of diabolical Gygaxian traps. They were't just "make a reflex safe and take 5d6 damage". You could be Tported naked, or trapping in a pit with a Gelatinous Cube or lose life levels, etc.

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Jiggy wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
I had been under the impression that "grognard" was a dismissive and somewhat ageist term, and thus I try not to use it. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are mistaken, it is a badge of honor.


Sure doesn't seem that way when used by folks who don't self-identify as such. But I'm glad to see this thread is going in a more positive direction than I first feared when I saw the thread title.

Carry on, then.


Anything can be used as a pejorative by those not in the group- "New school gamer" "raised on video games", "powergamer" "roleplayer". etc.

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Jiggy wrote:
I had been under the impression that "grognard" was a dismissive and somewhat ageist term, and thus I try not to use it. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are mistaken, it is a badge of honor.

I am a Grognard.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You are both Grognards! (Gives secret handshake)

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:

Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.

Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.

Because that's the OP, Jessica: "Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))"

So, if I answer the OP by saying yes, as I did- am I "congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups" or just answering the OP's question?

The OP is not a "discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women" it is a question- by a female note- as to who "has a girl in their group". She asked a reasonable polling question, and many of us are simply answering it.

This doesnt make us sexist or presumptuous or speaking for the other sex. It means simply we respect the Op and are answering her query.

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You are part of a group of henchmen, hirelings, 1st level types, working for some experienced and powerful adventurers. You are left to hold the horses outside the dungeon.

Suddenly there's a cloud of rank dark smoke and four pairs of smoking boots appear- and a evil laugh....

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Smarnil le couard wrote:

Greyhawk had two republics, complete with elections, representatives, etc.:

1) Perrenland (loosely based on switzerland, including export of mercenaries) ;
2) and the Yeomanry, with a government of the warrior people by the warrior people.

Not en expert on FR or Eberron, but it seems that "never any republic" in classic D&D settings isn't factually correct.

And the City of Greyhawk itself was run by the Directing Oligarchy, aka the guilds.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Keep in mind that both the Roman and Greek Republics weren't democracies as we understand them today. To be a Senator for example in Rome, you were the head of a powerful family. You weren't "elected" to the position by the plebian population.

But the Plebes did elect the Plebian assembly and most of the Officials. The Plebian Assembly and the Tribunes had a lot of power in the late Republic.

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HyperMissingno wrote:

I have an Empiricist Investigator who dips one level into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, and I'm on a 10 point buy. What reason do I have to not go 9, 14, 14, 15, 8, 7 for my stat array (the +2 goes into dex here.)

So, if your DM gives you a 10pt maybe you dont run that combo. Wait for a 20 pt campaign.

I mean if your DM gives you a 0 point build, maybe you do dump.... that DM.....

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HeHateMe wrote:

Not to derail this thread, but alot of times the Inquisitor has to fill the rogue role, so Dex becomes very important. Same with Wisdom, you need it not just for spells, but Perception, Survival, Sense Motive, etc.

Any skill monkey type class has to spread their stats much thinner than a full caster or heavily armored martial. If I want to be successful doing all the things a skill monkey is expected to do, Charisma is getting dumped.

If you are making your Inquisitor fill both the tank and skill monkey riches, then sure, he's gonna need a lot of good stats.

Make your wizard a gish who will fill both the warrior and spellslinger roles and you know what...?

Clerics who have to fulfill tank and divine spellcaster/healer roles have to have good stats in many abilities.

Filling any two niches- need five decent abilities, in general.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Are you saying that the rude, ugly boor with bad breath interrupting him with 'Gives us a bargain you snot nosed creep or I'll chop you wit dis axe" will only help?

If you want people to face the consequences of what they have their characters say and do, that's fine. But you don't get to decide how other people's characters act and then expect them to face the consequences of what you invented.

Someone who tries to play other people's characters according to their own vision and then expects the other players to be penalized for it has no right to be at the table.

EDIT: As an aside, the appropriateness of double-dipping CHA penalties wasn't even my main point. It was that the act of trying to help a tablemate was being labeled "metagaming" by the person who was himself acting on knowledge of game statistics. The irony and hypocrisy there is astounding.

OK, so the rude, ugly boor with bad breath and poor speech can say whatever the players wants him to say. He is still a rude, ugly boor with bad breath and poor speech and he's not gonna "help".

The guy with the 6 str isnt gonna help the guy with 18 strenght - if that's what the DM rules. The DM can assign a + or - 2 penalty at whim, based upon circumstances. It's in the rules.

I dont see how that is ironic or hypocritical, the DM can't metagame. He is the Dm.

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HolmesandWatson wrote:

4d6 and drop one - totally forgot about that. I think that's actually my favorite method.

4D6 drop one, re-roll ones.

3 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:


If the players or characters call themselves this, I dont want to play with them.

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DrDeth: OD&D then AD&D Necromancer. Slightly undead. Grew to be archmage and Coroner of Greyhawk. very dry and black humor.

Kane. BoNS Warblade, 3.5 . Fighter with massive mobility skills, could do a lot of wushu moves.

Jack. Jack was the Jack of Diamonds from Wonderland. Totally insane. Carried *THE* Vorpal blade.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Many, many years ago, at Kennedy's Historical Models & Games, I ran what might have been the first: "you wake up naked in the dungeon and have to get out" campaign. It was very popular, had to run it two nites a week with two large groups.

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Cerwin wrote:

He started out as a fairly easy going or at least as much as an inquisitor of Gorum could be. But after his best friend in the party was brutally murdered in front of him he has kind of going to a dark place. And is now looking for someone strong enought to kill him. And as such he is going to fight every fight to the death. (and I have told the GM that this is his way of thinking after the last time he forced me to stop a fight before the enemy of my character were down).

So I missed the last session and I get a text from the GM that my character fought the guy to a draw and then got drunk with him to celebrate a good fight with a worthy opponent. And at level 1that might well have been what happened. But now with his only goal to die honorably in combat he would not fight to a draw and then go drinking with the guy.

That's pretty small potatoes.

and your stated goal is not very campaign friendly. Maybe you should rethink it. Just mellow it some. Good character, other than that.

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I know: "It's what my character would do!"- but who designed that character, gave him his alignment and his motivations?

Dont design a jerk. Dont play a jerk. Dont play with jerks.

Sit down and talk this out like adults.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Niztael wrote:
Way back in the day, the party or people seeking someone to be raised from the dead in any fashion required more than just money. From Raise Dead to Resurrection, a service was required to be performed for the church or entity using such magic. At the 3.0 and on is when it only became a matter of money.

As I posted before:

For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”

Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."

The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, , why do you need a investigatory phase? Just send them down into the sewers or dungeons and let them kill stuff.

Tell them OOC that by not having those skills, they are losing out on a lot of stuff.

When the level, they can make that choice.

Maybe they just wanna kill monsters.

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MichaelCullen wrote:

The Ranged Tactics Tool box brings up the topic of Scry and Teleport as a recommended tactic.

Here is what it had to say on the subject.
ranged tactics toolbox wrote:

Scry and Teleport: The combination of divination

(scrying) and conjuration (teleportation) spells can make
for a potent offensive option. Scrying can provide vital
information about a foe’s vulnerabilities and defenses
before the spellcaster teleports in to strike at the most
opportune moment—provided she carries off her plan
before the scrying sensor is noticed.

That's not errata.

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Lemmy wrote:

These statements are usually made just to poke fun at the rules and their flaws. There are plenty of cases where the rules either make no sense or just contradict themselves... The sun might be exaggeration, since that thing is many times bigger than Earth. But what about clouds? Chances are they are impossible to see as well, according to RAW. XD

tl/dr: It's just a hyperbolic joke being used to make a valid criticism. Humor has always been used to criticize real issues, after all. ;)

There's no valid point here, at all. The rules here do make sense and do not contradict themselves. (and in fact the rules rarely do so)

"Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment."

The sun is not a "fine detail" nor are clouds. There is no need to make a perception check in the first place.

The issue is that people just are not reading the rules.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Is there any way to get this ability without this Fighter archetype? I want a inquisitor to have it.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
So, TOZ, in your games, casters dominate play? No use playing anything but a full caster? Or have you "fixed" it?
I haven't run anything but organized play in three or four years, so yes, yes, and no.

OK, then, good example.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lissa Guillet wrote:
Privilege is weird. It specifically involves many things you probably aren't aware of. Many little things; tiny little bits that on their own don't amount to much if anything but over the course of a lifetime can have a profound affect or none at all.

Sure. But all of us who live in the USA- or in any First World nation- are "privileged" beyond the fondest hope of someone in Bangladesh or Sudan can even hope for.

And, even those of us who are white, "cis', middle classed, etc have issues- like being overweight or a Senior Citizen or health issues or many other things.

Can I, a overweight "senior" with Rheumatoid Arthritis and Prostate cancer say "Check your Privilege" to a 20-something with perfect health?

"privilege" is so very relative that saying "Check your privilege' is pretty darn insulting.

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Rynjin wrote:

The thing about the whole "cis good or bad" debate that gets me all rustled is people like Lazar acting like turnabout is fair play there.

The term "cis scum" is fine to use because trans people have had slurs thrown at them for a long time...and somehow that makes it okay?

That kind of double standard makes communication difficult as well. I don't call black people the N-word or gay people the British word for cigarette because those are appalling words to call people, and they just help to promote racial and social tension among groups.

So deciding that, for some reason, that standard doesn't apply to the other side is baffling to me. It's still a terrible thing to do, and promotes that same social tension.

There's too much of this attitude that payback is inherently righteous in these social justice conversations. Yes, someone called you a bad word. That doesn't give you a chit you can cash in to call someone entirely unrelated a bad word for every time you've heard it.

A lot of these Tumblr blogs and whatnot seem to operate entirely on this principle.

Saying "F&%! all trans people, kill 'em all" is clearly f~#&ing horrendous.

"Die cis scum" and "Kill all men/white men" are somehow then rallying cries, not only acceptable but LAUDABLE (and as many are saying right now in regards to that second, my mere bringing up of this fact merely reinforces the idea that it is a necessary and good idea to spread.).

This is far more of a problem when it comes to these issues than "Talking past people". Talking past someone merely prolongs the discussion, sending it in circles. No progress is made.

The double standards, meanwhile, regress the discussion instead. Negative progress is made. Everyone comes out of the discussion MORE convinced for LESS REASON that their side is right and the other is insane.

Look, I agree with Rynjin! ;-) It's not so much that "cis" is horrible nasty and always a pejorative. It's that us caring and progressive people have learned that when a group tells us "Hey, please dont use that term" we now respond with "Sure, if that's what you want, Ok by me." Often with a qualifier like "Do note, we didn't mean anything pejorative by that term, we used it without meaning offense, sorry."

So then when we ask others to "please dont use that term, it offends me", we expect everyone to be on board with it- with a qualifier, sure.

So then we are shocked when the reply is "you have no right to be offended and we'll keep using that term whether you like it or not- and the fact that you're offended by it means YOU are intolerant" !!

We expect to be treated like we have tried to treat others- and if you're part of a majority group, it doesnt happen.

This just leads to more anger and intolerance.

Thanks for starting this thread, TacticsLion.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Hoover wrote:
Everyone reading this thread that is frustrated with loot remember: crafting mundane items may be slow and boring, I get it, but it's still a decent way to get loot.

Well, maybe. But if your DM is into WBL and cuts back loot as you craft, then why bother?

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This article by the well known author Brynn Tannehill should finalize the debate on the use of "cisgender":
"The use of "cis" and "cisgender" should be carefully examined. There are people who strenuously object to these words being applied to them, even if the words come from an academic background. Just as my feelings on certain subjects should be respected, so should the feelings of people who dislike these labels.

It also needs to be asked what using the words gains us....The conclusion of many organizations is that you should not use either "cisgender" or "cis" in any sort of public narrative. ...Even inside the LGBT community the words have a very negative connotation. When someone is referred to as a "cisgender lesbian" or "cis gay man" by a transgender person, it is often in a negative way. The addition of "cis" or "cisgender" is used to imply a certain level of contempt and a desire that they leave discussions on transgender issues. It also implies that they don't, can't, or won't ever understand transgender issues.

...However, using the word "cis" or "cisgender" is not necessary to do so. Just as no one ever called me "tranny" and meant it in a nice or affectionate way, many LGB people have never been called "cis" or "cisgender" in a way that wasn't accusatory. Therefore we find common ground in disliking a word because its context has always been nasty and demeaning when applied to us personally.....As a result, "cis" and "cisgender" should be used sparingly in public discourse."

I agree with the author "The conclusion of many organizations is that you should not use either "cisgender" or "cis" in any sort of public narrative." and I think it's time the Paizo boards joined this movement.

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How are you guys coming along with Simulacrum, etc FAQs?

1 person marked this as a favorite.
KenderKin wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
KenderKin wrote:

Old school gamers know what a kender is and thus know instinctively not to take anything I say seriously....and to hide their valuables....

New School gamers don't get it

New School gamers welcome their kender friends.
Who wouldn't?

We "welcome" them into the whirling blades of death, followed by the lava pits.


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Digitalelf wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
everyone wanted to play the Thief

Oh come on!

You're just saying that because you're more than a little biased... :-P

So very true.<g> Oddly, I usually played the Cleric.

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thejeff wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Excellent points.

And, since each class has a niche, there hardly any issue about 'class balance". Since the Thief does his job, it isn't important if he's less powerful than the Wizard, as he still pulls his share of weight.

No. They just bongoed about having to play the thief or the cleric, since somebody had to. Granted we usually had someone playing a mage/thief or fighter/thief, so they were more fun.

Clerics didn't have as many multiclass options and were stuck being healbots far too much of the time.

Might not be "class balance", but causes a lot of the same problems. But worse, since you still needed them.

Naw- everyone wanted to play the Thief, or some variation. Cleric was pretty good at hitting things and could whup on Monsters.

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patriarchus wrote:

I see two big differences between 'Old School' and the current ethos:

1) In the Old School, the creativity in the game before you sat down at the table was all in the hands of the DM. ...
2) In the Old School, the 'balance' in the game was calibrated for the party as a whole versus the intended encounters in a gaming session. A DM was expected to put challenges in front of the party that the party could handle by letting each character shine in specific situations (some traps for the thief, something requiring magic for the magic-user, some brutes for the fighter, and no chance to rest/an undead challenge for the cleric). That led to party composition ALWAYS having at least one of the major four classes and exotic parties were those that had the sub-classes while parties that didn't hit the main tent posts were usually annihilated. ...

Excellent points.

And, since each class has a niche, there hardly any issue about 'class balance". Since the Thief does his job, it isn't important if he's less powerful than the Wizard, as he still pulls his share of weight.

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