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Considering that spellcasters are bit of "game changers", I think its fair that spellcasting prestige classes give a little less spell levels :P
Tier envy is such a thing that even The Order of the Stick references it. But that's hardwired into 3.x, and I don't think nerfing the options for the higher-tier classes is the answer.
Basically I think you are making big deal out of something that not everyone even considers a problem.
You're talking to the guy who wrote a thirty-page guide to a particular prestige class. I'll answer to "mildly obsessive". In a good way, of course.
I've been following the Diabolist on these forums since I started writing that darn Guide back in 2012, and I've probably talked to... I don't know, a couple of dozen people who've played or GMed one. It's not just "powergamers don't play it". It's "everyone likes it, nobody thinks it's unbalanced or OP". Right now, it's exactly what a PrC should be: people play it and enjoy it, but nobody's rushing to play it in order to abuse it or powergame. People play it, have fun with it, and move on.
Taking the two feats: on one hand, I appreciate that they came up with a fix for the lost levels. On the other, it's a little bit like cutting off my foot and then saying, oh hey, there is the option of this awesome prosthetic! I mean, yes the plastic foot is better than no foot, so thank you for that, but why did you have to cut off my foot in the first place?
But this is veering towards a general discussion of PrC design. That's a topic I have strong opinions about (if you can't guess) but OT for this particular thread.
James Jacobs wrote:
I understand that, but please consider the possibility that you're taking it too far. Too many Paizo PrCs are /bad/ choices -- suboptimal, mechanically weak. I understand the history; I'm old enough to remember the wince-inducing excesses of 3.x, with its ridiculously overpowered prestige classes. But the pendulum may have swung too far in the opposite direction.
Bringing it back to the Diabolist specifically: I have probably given more attention to the Diabolist PrC than any human being on Earth alive today. I wrote the Guide To The Diabolist which is, in its current edition, nearly thirty pages long. (I freely acknowledge this is excessive, but the damned thing just grew. It started out at maybe a quarter that size, but, well, it turned out to be a deep topic.) I looked at how it interacted with other classes, how best to play it, feats, spells, best races, flavor stuff, you name it. Why? Well, at first because I was one of the editors of the Way of the Wicked AP, and that got me deeply engaged with how to design and play evil PCs. And then I came to realize that the Diabolist was a really good Prestige Class: flavorful, fun, and balanced.
It was balanced because it avoided most of the problems that plague other PrCs. On one hand, it didn't force the players to make annoying, limiting choices like giving up caster levels. On the other, it did place important limitations on them (alignment, damnation) with interesting consequences. It gave benefits that scaled with level (the imp companion, the Cha bonuses) but that were inherently limited by being thematic, aligned, or specialized.
We can see that it was balanced because powergamers were not flocking to play Diabolists. I've been talking to people about their play experiences with Diabolists for nearly five years on these forums. People generally enjoyed playing them, sometimes a lot -- but nobody, player or GM, ever said the Diabolist was OP, dominated the campaign, or was unbalanced. It was a fun, well designed PrC that neatly filled a thematic niche without being overly strong or annoyingly feeble.
It wasn't broken. It didn't need fixing.
For purposes of the opposed charisma checks for binding, is there any sort of way to substitute intelligence for charisma for these checks?
None that I know of. The Diabolist PrC can get up to +6 on those checks when binding devils, and if you check out DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist there are a bunch of tips in there about other ways to raise your Cha check. A couple off the top of my head:
Amulet of the Spirits [Heavens variant] -- “Whenever the wearer can see the open sky at night, she can add her Wisdom modifier to her Charisma modifier on all Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks”. So if you have a positive Wis modifier, install a skylight in your conjuration chamber.)
Circlet of Persuasion -- a flat +3 on Cha checks.
Stone of Good Luck -- +1 to checks including Cha.
The Glory domain. This is normally only available to clerics and the like... bu-ut, if you take a familiar and use the Emissary familiar archetype, your familiar can get this domain and use its power on you. If the DM allows it, this will give you a truly sweet boost to your Cha roll.
Digging deep into the archives, here's a character concept I came up with years ago: Straight Charlie, the accidental paladin. If that seems like it might work for you, please take it away! You might want to add another paladin level or two -- it's really up to you.
Adam, everyone, thanks very much for the additional information! It sounds like this was atmospheric, creepy, and stressful -- exactly what you'd want for a romp through Lovecraft-land. Having a PC crack under the strain (and maybe change alignment?) is also totally appropriate!
Your add-ons (lighting and wind sounds) sound awesome.
One further question. Were you players actually able to get enough sleep? 68 hours of play in 108 hours... in theory, that leaves you just enough time to eat, get eight hours of sleep, and maybe check your e-mail. In practice, though, were you guys getting a bit worn down by the end of it? And if so, how much of that was "we're playing a long time and very intensively", and how much was this particular module?
Daniel Scholler wrote:
It's a short video, and it really isn't a spoiler...
There isn't actually a Necronomicon! But there are a bunch of interesting stories by HP Lovecraft. (Note: People, even people who really like Lovecraft -- no, /especially/ them -- disagree sharply on which are the best. Don't want to threadjack, so won't get into it here, but don't be surprised if different people give you dramatically different reading lists.)
gustavo iglesias wrote:
I'd be more interested in SS than in Second Darkness or WotR, to be honest
Firm agreement. WoTR has an excellent opening and there's much to like in the first half. By the back half, though, the Mythic rules really turn it into rocket tag -- and if the players are competent, then it's rocket tag that they're always going to win.
Adam Smith wrote:
Based on what you both are saying and what I've seen on the boards for SS, it seems that there might be some interest in seeing an AP that the community finds difficult to run as-written, played in its entirety by a group that specializes in running material as such?
Well if that's what you're after, there's always Second Darkness...
Adam Smith wrote:
1) Souls for Smuggler's Shiv is amazing. There's general consensus on this. It's one of the best AP modules ever, and might be the best Volume 1 of any AP. The only reason I say "might" is because there are some players who won't love the hardscrabble, bare-hands aspect of the first half of the module, where you're starting with no equipment and have to worry about stuff like diseases and tropical rainstorms. But IME those guys are a minority, and anyway this module offers so much more -- cool encounters, all kinds of tropes. It's just really solid and well done.
AFAICT this is the general consensus on the forums: most people like SfSS a lot, and many people absolutely love it.
2) BUT. BUT BUT BUT.
The rest of the AP is a very, very mixed bag. Volume 2 is (IMO) okay to good, a race against rival factions across the savannah of not-Africa to find a lost city. But after that it gets wildly uneven and famously grindy. There's some good stuff in there, including a cool fight with, basically, King Kong. But pretty much everyone agrees that there are also major flaws. The back half in particular is notorious for being super grindy.
Again, AFAICT this is the general consensus on the forums: many people like SS, but a large minority are very critical of the later modules.
3) My understanding is that you Amber Dice guys run the APs absolutely straight, as written, with no DM adjustments or tweaking. If that's how you plan to play it, then ask around first, because a lot of people think the latter part of SS, as written, is... troubled.
Whatever you do, I'll be watching with great interest!
Here's a system I posted back in November on the Strange Aeons subforum. I used it IMC and the players liked it. YMMV.
* * * * *
Before starting, I'm going to tell the players that they have six Starting Points, which they can distribute among four categories: Stuff, Physical, Mental, and Fugue. They can spend up to three points in each category -- so, for instance, a PC might start with Stuff 2, Physical 3, Mental 1, and Fugue 0. What I'll tell the PCs: "Stuff 3 means you start with lots of stuff. Physical 3 means you're in great physical shape, Mental 3 same. Fugue 3, you have the least possible effects from the fugue. Lower numbers are less good." No details beyond that.
So what will these mean? Well:
Stuff 3: You find all your starting equipment in the first room. Since your character used to be a favored servant of Lowls, I will add a useful item of up to 2,000 gp value into your stuff... a magic weapon, minor magic item, a spellbook with extra spells up to fourth level, or the like. Your stuff will also contain a clue to your past (embroidered initials on fine clothing, or some such.)
Stuff 2: You find all your starting equipment in the first room. It's the normal equipment for a 1st level PC, with no clues.
Stuff 1: The DM determines one item that is definitely present -- a weapon, spellbook, or holy symbol, whatever the character most needs. Everything else, have the player go down his character sheet and roll: 50% chance it's there, otherwise it's marked "missing". Missing items will be found with Winter and the refugees, and can be claimed as soon as they trust the PC (attitude friendly or better).
Stuff 0: You got nothin'. You'll find one critical item (as above, weapon or spellbook) in the possession of the first ghoul or doppelganger you encounter in area B. After that, the refugees may have some of your stuff: roll for everything else, 50% there, 50% lost forever.
Physical 3: You were dosed with a powerful stimulant that will temporarily increase either your Con or your Dex by +4. The stimulant wears off four hours after you wake up.
Physical 2: You're fine.
Physical 1: You have an injury (half your hp) that also affects your movement: either one arm isn't working, or you're at -10' on your move. The latter effect will disappear once you have healed the hp AND have a night's good rest (i.e., in the chapel... there's no good rest anywhere else).
Physical 0: You have the Sickened condition, and will have it until you have a night's good rest AND someone makes a DC 15 Heal check on you. You also have either a disease or an addiction (DM's choice); if a disease, you're already past the incubation period.
Mental 3: You awake with your mind strangely clear and strong. You are immune to San damage for the next four hours. If not using the Sanity system, then you gain +4 on Will saves for the next four hours.
Mental 2: You're fine.
Mental 1: You're disoriented and distracted. You are at -4 to either Wis or Cha,and whenever confronted with a stressful situation (such as combat) you must make a DC 15 Will save in order to place yourself in danger. (If you fail the Will save by 5 or more, you can do nothing but cower.) You can retry the Will save each round; once it's made, you can act normally for the rest of that encounter or situation.
Mental 0: You seem fine at first, but in fact you have gained a madness as per the DMG -- either paranoia, mania, or phobia (DM's choice). The madness DC is 15. The madness passes if you can get a good night's rest and then make the Will save, OR you get a good night's rest after someone has made a DC 20 Heal check on you. The Heal check DC is reduced by 1 for every ten minutes the healer spends sitting with you and speaking calmly.
Fugue 3: You still get occasional flickers of memory from your past life. The DM may use this to give you hints or clues at any time during the first two modules. Additionally, during the first week after waking, you may reroll up to three attacks, saves, or skill checks, as the fading memories of your past self briefly inspire you to greater competence. These rerolls are a limited resource; once you've used them, they're gone.
Fugue 2: As per normal.
Fugue 1: You no longer remember your name. The DM or the other players will give you a name based on some characteristic ("Scarface", "Twitchy", or the like). Also, some of your memories are slow to recover. Whenever you attempt to attack with a weapon, use a skill, or cast a spell, there is a 20% chance you are unable to bring those memories to the fore. For a weapon or a skill, you are treated as non-proficient (-4 to attack rolls, no +3 bonus on skill checks). For a spell, you are unable to cast it, but you do not lose the spell or slot. Once you have used a particular weapon or skill, or cast a particular spell, you no longer have to make this roll. You can try to reroll a failed roll after at least ten minutes have passed. This condition passes after a good night's rest.
Fugue 0: As above, except the failure chance is now 50%, and you don't remember how to read or how to speak any languages but Common. The condition persists until you can get a good night's rest and then make a DC 15 save, OR you get a good night's rest after someone has made a DC 20 Heal check on you. The Heal check DC is reduced by 1 for every ten minutes the healer spends sitting with you and speaking calmly.
If you do use it, please let us know how it works out!
Here's my own version, spinning off the half-demons from Demons Revisited. Start with the standard half-fiend template, then modify as follows.
* * *
Type: The creature’s type remains the same but it gains the shapechanger subtype. Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Armor Class: Natural armor bonus improves by +4.
Defenses/Qualities: Gains darkvision 60 feet; DR 5/ good or piercing; and SR equal to creature’s CR + 11 (maximum 25).
Speed: No change; the creature does not gain a fly speed.
Melee: A half-rakshasa gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. Damage depends on its size.
Special Attacks: A half-rakshasa does not gain Smite Good or any other special attacks.
Alternate Spell-Like Abilities: Instead of Darkness 3x/day, Enlarge Person or Reduce Person (either) once/day. Instead of Desecrate, Detect Thoughts 3x/day. Replace Unholy Blight with Suggestion. Replace Contagion with Lightning 3x/day. A half-rakshasa gains no spell-like abilities for having more than 10 levels or hit dice.
Abilities: A half-rakshasa gains Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2, and Cha +4.
Shifter: The half-rakshasa gains the SQ change shape (any humanoid of its own size category, alter self), with the limitation that it can only change its shape up to 3x/day
Deceiver: A half-rakshasa gains +4 racial bonuses to Bluff and Disguise checks.
Vicious Heritage: Once a half-rakshasa reaches 10th level, it ceases to gain spell-like abilities and its SR can no longer increase. However, if it seeks out and kills an actual rakshasa with at least as many hit dice as the half-rakshasa, then it takes that rakshasa's place on the Great Wheel. The half-rakshasa immediately becomes a full rakshasa (keeping all its earned experience and character levels), while the rakshasa is reborn as an ordinary mortal.
* * *
Notes: Trying to use the Paizo half-demons as a model here. This guy has no fly speed and no smiting; to balance, he gets better SLAs than most and a nice natural armor bonus. The "enlarge/reduce person" SLA is a nod to Ghatotkacha, the most famous half-rakshasa from the Mahabharata. The Vicious Heritage is my own addition, but it does help explain why there aren't a lot of these guys around, and it gives many (though not all) of them a built-in motivation. A sufficiently arrogant rakshasa might deliberately spawn a half-breed to be a terror to his relatives or rivals, and the Fearless Rakshasa Hunter may actually be a half-rakshasa with an agenda of his own...
I'm considering adding an evil human wizard to the hobgoblins' force pool. He should be MUCH too tough for the PCs -- at least 7th level, maybe higher.
In this scenario, we still have the ballista, but what cripples Aubrin long-term is the wizard strolling in and zapping her with Bestow Curse. "-4 on everything" or "50% chance each round to do nothing" are good starting points, but I'm pretty sure a creative DM can come up with a curse that would effectively incapacitate here. Here's one possibility: whenever Aubrin attempts to do anything other than take a move, free, or immediate action, she must make a DC 20 Will save or be Nauseated for d4 rounds. That means she can't usually fight or cast spells, but can still serve as a backup healer and advisor. That's a first pass; I'm sure you guys can come up with something even better.
Your Phantom, Doctor Lomar, is a unique Dedication phantom. He has all the usual powers, with the following modifications:
-- His skill is Heal. Obviously his ability to actually heal is limited when he's incorporeal, but he can still make helpful suggestions (Aid Another).
-- He has more free will and autonomy than a normal phantom. His alignment is Lawful Neutral and his motivations are to guard the asylum, fix whatever is wrong with it, and help the patients. You can command him like a normal phantom, but if you instruct him to do something that goes against his alignment or motivations, he'll resist, and you'll have to win a contested Cha check. You don't know what will happen if you fail the Cha check.
He also has a personality: he's a bit fussy and pedantic, and a bit bossy and superior. He's a doctor, young lady. Pushing him around in ways that are not consistent with his personality may get his back up and force a Cha check.
-- You can ask him questions about the asylum, patients, etc., but his memories have been damaged. Not as severely damaged as yours, but something crushed in his skull. (This is also why he has a working Int of 7.) You notice how his speech was becoming confused towards the end? He doesn't like to admit it, but he's missing a few pips on his dice. So, his ability to answer questions may be limited.
-- Spiritualists are not a common class, at all; most people would have no idea that such a thing even is possible. Also, you're in Ustalav, where pretty much everyone has excellent reasons for being paranoid about the occult.
-- If you don't like this, you can (at this point) cast him out. You know that you can say, "I revoke my invitation!" or words to that effect. This means rejecting the Spiritualist level. It may not always be an option, but it is right now.
As it happens, we had a conversation about building the good Captain over in the campaign's discussion thread. Here are the relevant posts.
Designing Captain Odenkirk (Mechanics):
The original Captain Odenkirk was a Neutral Evil barbarian. No change there. But he needed a significant power-up and redesign to give him a chance to face this party. With eidolon, dog and ogre you have a total of nine characters who can act every round. That tips the action economy far in your favor. So I knew that mechanically I'd have to build him carefully if I wanted him to last past the first round.
I made him a Bbn 8 / Expert 1. The Expert level was to reflect his captaining skills and long experience at sea, and also to nudge up his skills and Will save. His feats started with the usual barbarian trio Toughness, Power Attack and Cleave. I gave him Iron Will because I knew he'd be facing a lot of spells targeting his Will save, and also because it was thematically appropriate.
After some consideration, I gave him Improved Sunder. The Sunder CM doesn't get a lot of play because it's so cruel -- it targets your beloved weapons, and leaves the fighter types standing helplessly with nothing. But the Captain *is* a cruel bastard, and I felt it would be totally consistent for him to smash your weapon, render you helpless, laugh at you, and then kill you. I gave him an adamantite axe so that he could sunder all day long and, well, you can see how that's worked out.
For barbarian powers I gave him Defensive stance to nudge his AC from bad to mediocre, followed by Spirit Totem and Superstition. If you're following along, this meant that his Will save would gain up to +2 expert +2 Iron Will +3 Superstition +2 rage in addition to the normal +2 for a barbarian and whatever his Wis bonus is. His other saves would also be respectable. Very important when facing four spellcasters at once! (I don't love Superstition for the same reason I don't love Haste -- it's so good that almost everyone takes it. But, hell, you guys took Haste. What's a DM to do? It's an arms race, you gotta keep up.)
He got some special powers from his connection with the Kraken. After some consideration, I decided that (1) he would get regeneration like a troll as long as he was near salt water, and (2) he'd get a better version of Spirit Totem -- among other things, it has a 10' reach and does 2d4 instead of d4.
There was no way to make his AC better than so-so without redesigning the whole character. Ultimately I shrugged and decided that he'd rely on Toughness and raging to bring him through.
He has a 10 Int and only put a single rank in Sense Motive, which meant that -- up until the final boss fight -- you guys were able to scam him pretty effectively. This was deliberate. If I'd made him smarter or cranked his Sense Motive up to the max, he might have seen through you, and that could have been lethal. Putting you on a boat with a powerful hair-trigger paranoiac who was *also* incredibly sensitive and perceptive would have been unfair.
Now, Bag'o'Bones had a high Sense Motive. Luckily for you, you decided to kill him as fast as possible, and his lizard too. (Yeah, the lizard could have been trouble.)
Designing Captain Odenkirk (Roleplaying):
One thing about running an evil campaign is that you guys get to spend a lot more time in the company of evil NPCs. In a standard campaign, you'd just be killing them. Here you get to hang out with them first. So, I've been trying to present different kinds of villainy for your consideration. The Cardinal, Tiadora, Irin, Zargo, and now the Captain... they're all evil, but they're evil in very different ways.
The Captain was mostly straightforward, but there were subtleties. I made him cruel, domineering, paranoid, violent and greedy. Not randomly or recklessly so -- he'll keep his oath to deliver the weapons, and you, to your destinations -- but he's ultimately too selfish and greedy to be trustworthy. In other words, pretty much pure Neutral Evil. Displaying his character to you was a mix of "show" (his constant brutality towards his sailors) and "tell" (the kraken backstory with him sacrificing a shipload of refugees, Nimpy's story, the first mate).
Does the Captain have positive aspects? Well, he's utterly fearless (as seen in the encounter with the Mountain That Swims). And I did give him a faint hint of a softer side: his melancholic yearning for Homeland. He loves his cruel, savage native land. But his brutality and violence got him exiled, and his greed means he'll never pay the blood-prices that would let him go home. So he's really a man trapped by his own character. You could almost feel a tiny bit sorry for him. Of course, this just makes him more violent and cruel. So, maybe not so much.
The Captain's drinking was almost a throwaway line -- he goes onshore sometimes and drinks, but not on the ship because it makes him ill tempered. (As opposed to his normal kindly mild-mannered self.) You guys somehow got the idea of a drinking contest. That's a common fantasy trope, it's true, but not in this case. The Captain is not a social drinker! Quite the opposite.
Anyway. I wanted him to be a fairly well realized NPC; and then I wanted you guys to be wary of him, if not outright frightened by him. You can tell me how well that worked or not.
Depending on your party, you may want to adjust the details. For instance, if you have a standard party of four (mine was six), then lose at least one level of barbarian. But the Captain's low Sense Motive means a clever party *should* be able to get him into a bad situation, and then action economy takes over.
Thank You For Sailing Frosthamar Cruise Lines!
A data point: yesterday there was a special election for the Connecticut State Senate. It was for the 32nd District, which is the reddest district in an otherwise purply-blue state. The 32nd is rural and exurban, and demographically it's oldish and very white. It hasn't sent a Democrat to the Connecticut State House since 1891.
(Why do I know this? Because I used to live in that district, and I spent some time phone banking for the Democrat over the weekend.)
Nobody expected to win this one -- and we didn't. However, the numbers are interesting. In November, the 32nd District went 66-34 for the Republican State Senate candidate. Yesterday, it went 55-45. That's an eleven point swing. This is the second special election in two weeks, and the last one (in Delaware) also saw a swing towards the Democrats. In that case, the swing was about seven points; since it was a purple district to begin with, the Democrat won comfortably.
Special elections happen all the time, and usually nobody pays much attention. But over the next few months, they're going to be a lot more important. If you live in Pennsylvania or Louisiana, you have special elections coming up in March; if you live in Alabama, Kansas or Georgia, you get your chance in April. The Kansas and Georgia elections are for the US House of Representatives, so they'll get extra attention.
Throw a few bucks at a candidate, sign up for a phone bank and make some calls, maybe go knock on a few doors. What the hey.
Meanwhile, let me try to answer your questions.
-- How quickly can you do the opposed charisma check? I would say immediately. In fact, my interpretation is that it MUST take place immediately. Otherwise, the balance of the spell tips in favor of the caster, who can leave the creature stuck in the circle for ten minutes while he goes to powder his nose and cast a bunch of buffs on himself.
-- What kind of action is it? Normally this is not an issue. Planar Binding takes ten minutes to cast, so whether you do the subsequent check as a free, standard, or full-round action is pretty irrelevant. However, the Blood Summoner's Fiendish Calling Ability happens in a single round, so now time becomes a concern. If you can do it as a free action, that's great. If it requires a standard, then effectively this spell requires two rounds (one to call, one to do the check), making this ability almost useless outside of combat. RAW gives no guidance, so you're on your own here.
Personally, I think requiring a standard or even a FRA is completely reasonable. Yes, it nerfs the Blood Summoner a bit. You know what? The Blood Summoner is pretty cheesy to begin with, and Fiendish Calling is super abusable. Requiring a round of bargaining isn't going to break it -- you can still require your called creature to stick around for days, after all.
-- "If you can immediately make a check is the trap even necessary?" Yes, because if you FAIL the check, the creature is then free to do as it pleases -- attack you, teleport away to wreak chaos on the material plane, or simply roll its eyes and plane shift back home. The trap prevents these things... the creature is stuck for up to days/level, and you can come back and attempt a new check every day.
Note that this is another reason not to use the Blood Summoner's ability in combat. In a normal planar binding, you can accept a failure chance of (let's say) 30%; if you fail, you just try again tomorrow. Use Fiendish Calling in combat, and that's a 30% chance that you've just added another enemy.
-- "So, is the trap part of the magic of the binding, or is it only highly-advised?" The latter.
-- "And what if you want to call a creature, but not bind it (e.g. an allied outsider from a different plain, or a creature that you worship)? Can you in this case leave the trap away?" Normally that's impossible, because a normal Planar Binding selects a random typical creature of that particular type... you get a randomly selected ice devil or whatever. The only exception is if you have the creature's true name, in which case you can summon it again and again.
-- "Does the creature have to inform you when its task is done? Can it not inform you and stay on the current plain indefinitely?" -- Oh, clever. Well, let's see: the duration of the spell is days/level, so at that point the spell would expire, sending the creature back home. Most called creatures WANT to go home; they have lives and jobs, and they don't want to hang around on the material plane. But, okay, there will be exceptions. Presumably most summoners will include a "report back promptly" instruction, but this is not required. So *if* the summoner forgets or neglects to include this instruction, and *if* the creature has some reason or motivation to hang around on the material plane, then yes, it could stay here for up to days/level of the caster.
-- "What does unreasonable mean here? Such commands that are not logically consistent? Otherwise what marks an unreasonable command?" The RAW is not clear. However, one definition of unreasonable is "extreme". IMO, this includes commands that would cause the creature to die; or to have a very high likelihood of death; or that would cause it to violate its alignment.
Good questions. The Planar Binding spells are not very well written, and the Blood Summoner just adds another level of complication.
I addressed most of these questions in DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding, which can be found here and also here (second part) Where rules and FAQ don't give clear answers, I try to fill in the blanks as best I can.
If you're looking for things to call with the Planar Binding spells, google "Crowdsource Planar Binding" -- there are three threads, one for each of the PB spells, with dozens of creatures discussed. If you're playing at high levels, or planning to, google "miniguide Gate".
@Douglas Muir there are also the Caller's Feathers which are one-use items that can boost your HD limit. At 2,000 GP or 1,000 if crafting it, it's a steal at 15th level. There also racisl traits that augment Planar Ally such as the Aasimar's Planar Negotiator, which reduces bargaining prices by 10%, or the Drow's Blasphemous Covenant , which specifically targets demons, but reduces the cost by a whopping 20% on top of giving demons you summoned via Summon Monster additional health.
Someone has read my Guide to the Diabolist!
Or if you haven't read it, and you knew that stuff anyway - then go read it, please, and tell me if you have any comments. Well-informed input is the very best kind.
Just realized something (again); this was probably coincidental and a bit of a reach, but due to the charisma dependency and the fact that you can use the Void domain, you can also specialize in Planar Binding spells.
Wait, the Void domain gives you *all three* Planar Binding spells?
Oh hell to the yes. Suddenly this Archetype makes all kinds of sense. Right now, all the core planar binders have a problem: wizards usually have crap Cha while sorcerors are handicapped by their low spells known. And clerics, of course, can't use planar binding at all -- they're stuck with the distinctly inferior Planar Ally spell instead. But this cuts right past all those problems. AND you have access to the human or tiefling FCB, which lets you pretty much ignore SR! Sweet. Sweeeet.
I suspect it will never be particularly optimal, but a Cleric (Elder Mythos Cultist) / Sorcerer (Aberrant, Impossible, or Ghoul Bloodline) / Mystic Theurge would be thematic as hell.
Oh, heck yes. A Bad Touch Cleric with a 10' reach? SAD everything on Cha, go Aberrant. Yeah, you have to wait until 8th level before you get your Theurge on, but you get oh, so many spells to play with. Even if weakish as a PC, you'd have an awesome NPC cult leader or something.
Slight tangent: I was inspired to come back to PBP and run this particular AP because I ran a short Lovecraft-based campaign that was a tremendous amount of fun. Well, a tremendous amount of fun for me. Most of the PCs died. But the players also seemed to have fun!
Anyway, I mention this because it was FTF - tabletop using the 5e rules. And one of the players was a relative newbie who decided to compensate for his lack of gaming experience by reading the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and DMG very carefully. Bless his heart.
So they're nearing the final session, down in the basement of the museum, near the pulsing heart of the madness, the portal to Aucturn torn open by the mysterious artifact unearthed from the tomb. And they've been dealing with a lot of fungal-themed craziness, because the Fungi From
And now, as they approach the final room, the door swings open... and into the room slides a pygmy- or halfling-sized idol from the Mwangi Expanse, its dark wood covered with alien mold, its head removed and replaced with a pulsing human brain, also covered with mold. The idol is legless, but it's sitting on a bronze shield, using it like a sled. The shield/sled is being pulled by half a dozen rats like little sled dogs. Each rat has been infected by an alien fungus and has a mushroom growing where its brain should be. Long strands of fungal filaments connect rats, sled, idol and brain together, entwining them into a single composite organism.
So when I'm done describing this, there are several seconds of silence... and then New Guy suddenly bursts out, "That's not in the f~$#ing Monster Manual!"
I have to disagree about the racial Favored Class bonuses for humans and tieflings. +1/level against Spell Resistance is flat-out amazing. As a very general rule, outsiders have SR that's around your level +10, so that you have around a 50% chance of getting through. So once you hit +10, you can _pretty much ignore SR_. This is totally worth 10 hp or 10 skill ranks! Think of it this way -- you can get +1 hp/level from Toughness, but you'll only get +2 against SR from a feat (Spell Penetration). So this Favored Class bonus is like getting Spell Penetration over and over again every two rounds.
It's great for any cleric, but it's *even more* great for you. Evil outsiders are like your whole thing! You'll be probably be going against them even more than normal clerics. So anything that gives you an edge is solid gold.
Oh, and here is another question! How can contract devil go onto Material Plane to contact party?
Contract devils have Plane Shift plus Greater Teleport as SLAs. In fact, this devil has a lot of SLAs that are designed to help it find people. Behind the scenes, it can work like this:
-- Contract devil gets a notice from Hell's bureaucracy that someone is abusing the Summon Accuser Devil spell in [location of PC]. The notice includes whatever the accuser devil knows about the PC, which presumably would include a name and basic description.
-- Devil plane-shifts to Golarion (or wherever), then use its Locate Creature SLA to get the PC's precise location. Then it uses Teleport to move close to PC.
-- Devil can now use Arcane Eye to spy on PC, or Vision to get information about PC's needs, desires, and vulnerabilities. If you really want to twist the knife, have the devil bring an accuser devil along with it -- this bends the rules slightly, but you could IMO justify it, and now the contract devil has a little invisible flying scout. This is not strictly necessary, but you want to see the look on the player's face when the accuser devil that it's been summoning materializes on the contract devil's shoulder, or crawls into its lap to be petted like a cat...
-- When the devil is ready, it uses its at-will dimension door, i.e. to PC's room a few moments before PC walks in.
-- Once negotiations begin, don't forget the contract devil has Detect Thoughts at will and +26 Sense Motive (but is itself completely immune to enchantments, suggestions, and all other mind-affecting effects).
-- If the PCs attack, remember this is a CR 10 creature with a lot of useful SLAs, including a 50% chance to summon a bone devil. In fact, if the PCs seem likely to challenge the accuser, it might use its summons ability in advance, and then have the bone devil lurking invisibly nearby -- bone devils have good Stealth and quickened invisibility as a SLA. Alternately, it could use the bone devil as part of a "good cop, bad cop" act -- bone devils are vicious torturers and inquisitors, after all. If negotiations go very badly, the devil can just shrug, drop a delayed blast fireball (13d6 damage, DC 23 save, and the devil itself is immune to fire) or a bestow curse, and teleport away.
Some of the Paizo fiends are kind of goofy, but the contract devil is actually pretty well designed -- its SLAs work neatly with its game function. Also, they have Int 24 and Wis 23, so you're justified in playing them as smug know-it-all bastards who always have a backup plan. They're a lot of fun IMO. Good luck!
Wannabe Demon Lord wrote:
What are a Kudimmu and a Shrike Worm?
The kudimmu is a large CR 16 plant, a giant evil tree-thing with interesting undead-related powers. It's loosely inspired by Mesopotamian legend. It's used as an encounter in the module, but would actually make a pretty interesting and unusual boss foe for a group of 12th-13th level PCs.
The Shrike Worm:
Large CR 15 aberrations, the shrike worms are based on the Cambrian creature Hallucigenia, only big and evil. They have a suite of illusion and hallucination related powers, and also will impale you on their back spikes.
I'm less enthusiastic about these guys, if only because I wanted Hallucigenia to evolve into a race of gentle, brilliant poets and philosophers. Surely Anomalocaris is all the Cambrian monster you could ever want!
Scratch off a day's worth of rations. The rat is large and hungry, and what it cannot eat it will carry off, Pizza Rat style.
Feeding the rat will allow Kyleen to ask it questions equal to her Cha modifier -- in this case, +2. Once it has answered those to the best of its ability, it will depart. Note that it's still an Int 2 animal, and it's spent a lot of time cowering under a boiler, so don't be surprised if it doesn't have anything terribly useful to say.
Actually, I'm wondering why people even bother negotiating with outsiders at all when you can simply cast geas/quest on them. There is no save, and since they are going to be stuck in the circle for a while, the 10-minute casting time is not a problem. If you fail to penetrate their spell resistance, just try again.
1) There's nothing to stop the creature from teleporting or plane shifting away and finding a suitably powerful caster with Remove Curse. Yes, it'll have to pay that caster, or owe it a favor, but that's probably preferable to being compelled by you.
2) There's also nothing to stop the creature from teleporting etc. to the nearest Magic Shoppe and picking up a couple of wands of lesser restoration. At 4500 gp each they're not cheap, but they'll fend off the effects of the geas until its duration expires.
3) If it comes to that, there's nothing to stop the creature from teleporting etc. to a safe quiet place and then just gritting its teeth and eating the ability score damage. -12 to all stats is pretty brutal, but the damage can't reduce its stats below 1 or kill it, and the spell only lasts day/level, and after the end of that period it will heal the damage normally. For an immortal outsider that's probably the equivalent of a couple of work days lost to a really nasty flu.
Now, here we may go down the still-unresolved rabbit hole of whether a creature under a geas MAY choose to refuse and eat the ability score damage, or whether it MUST try to comply, only taking the damage if it is prevented from compliance. AFAIK this has never been FAQed or otherwise resolved. Someone asked James Jacobs and he replied, "Perhaps". So it's a more or less official area of doubt and uncertainty!
Speaking for myself, I think geas is pretty OP to begin with. Yes, it has a ten minute casting time, which means it's not a combat spell. But extremely powerful effects + no hit dice limit + no component costs or other limiting factors + ***no saving throw*** = cheese with a side order of extra cheese, IMO. So in the absence of an official ruling, I think the course of wisdom would be to go with the interpretation that makes this spell slightly less fromage-tastic.
Sure, it wouldn't necessarily prevent them from murdering you, but you can also put in a backup geas saying "You will not intentionally harm me or [list of allies] until [task] is complete" and "You will report to me, then depart to your home plane when [task] is complete."
It's an open question whether you can lay multiple geases on a single target. The RAW doesn't seem to forbid it, but at high levels it can lead to pretty absurd results, and then of course there's the contradicting-geases problem: I geas you to save the princess, and then geas you a second time to absolutely refrain from saving the princess! Bam, no matter what you do you're going to end up with -12 on all your stats, no save. Even for a sixth level spell that seems a bit much. Again, there's no formal ruling on this AFAIK. I'd say that brings us to the "when in doubt, don't make the cheese cheesier" principle cited above.
Still, let's say okay, sure, you can multi-geas. You'll want to lay at least three geases -- don't hurt me or my friends (gotta do that one first), do this task, and then report-and-depart. That's three slots burned and three rolls to overcome SR, so success at one go is by no means assured. Remember that a called creature gets a chance to break loose from your circle once/day, and has a flat minimum 5% chance of success. So, unless you have Fast Study or are willing to burn a bunch of scrolls, you're running a small but real risk of it busting loose and ruining all your careful preparation.
How this plays out becomes a minigame depending on the intelligence, temperament and resources of the called creature. If you're 15th level and you're calling up a couple of barbed devils to keep an eye on your penthouse while you're out of town I'd say, sure, go for it. If you're calling something right around your own CR? I can think of three or four different ways to make this potentially problematic for a PC (and I'm sure you can too).
But yeah, good-aligned casters summoning angels is an odd case. You can argue that a good-aligned caster shouldn't do that, because (1) compelling creatures to serve against their will is pretty close to slavery, (2) it's even worse when you're compelling an *angel*, for goodness' sake, and (3) there's a perfectly good spell (Planar Ally) whereby you pay the angel to serve, no compulsion required.
But if you want to game it out, then (1) Planar Ally is only available to clerics, and hey -- only rich people are allowed to ask the Higher Heavens to help them? and (2) arguably it's cool if you're calling a creature that's on the opposite corner from you on the law-chaos axis. I mean, you're a lawful good caster? Get that azata to stop fluttering around babbling about poetry and do something useful for a change. You're CG? Hey, that uptight archon needs to be pulled out of its comfort zone.
And, as always, repeated use (and abuse) of this spell is likely to attract attention. YMMV, but if you're calling angels to save the orphanage, perhaps Heaven may be willing to accept it as an unusually loud and insistent call for help. But if your justification is "we need more firepower for this level of the Emerald Spire -- a CR 11 angel should do nicely", then your DM would IMO be perfectly justified to say something like "the night after leaving the Emerald Spire, you wake up find three beings standing by your bed. Tall, winged, glowing and gorgeous, they are gazing at you more in sorrow than in anger. One of them holds out a shining parchment towards you. You see that it is a summons to explain your actions before the Merciful But Very Lawful Celestial Court of High Justice. 'Will you come peacefully?' asks the one in the center, while the one on the left hefts a sword whose blade dances with silver flames, and the one on the right raises its slender hands in a gesture of perfect grace and beauty, ready to cast..."
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Yes, he can't cast it secretly while observed. It's one of the WTF were they thinking implications of the manifestations FAQ for traditionally stealthy monsters like these rakshasha, and succubi.
Ugh. Just... ugh.
Not going to play by RAW on those, because this is a case where RAW makes the game less fun and interesting. Raks and succubi are supposed to be creepy, subtle opponents who can read your mind. As to doppelgangers, "you can detect them with an infinitely spammable 0 level cantrip" combined with "you can see when they're trying to read your mind" nerfs them into complete pointlessness.
I generally prefer to run things as close to RAW as possible -- a single unified ruleset just keeps things fair. But there are edge cases where, no, RAW just fails. In the particular case of this module, at least I can handwave "these are weird variant dopps created by interaction with the Dreamlands, so they may not follow RAW". But I won't be using dopps going forward.
I accept the answer as canon, or nearly so. (James Jacobs speaks with authority, but not final authority -- he could be overruled by an official FAQ answer.) But I think it's a really bad answer. Detect Magic is already painfully overpowered for a spammable cantrip; it can be used to detect the presence of invisible creatures, determine when someone is under an enchantment, and effectively detect illusions. Now it can be used to detect shapechangers too? That's just not balanced.
Note that this blows two of the encounters in _In Search of Sanity_ right out of the water.
In Search of Sanity:
There's an encounter early on where the PCs encounter an injured woman, pinned under some wreckage. The "victim" is of course a doppelganger trolling for prey. Judging from the PBPs, most parties aren't fooled, but the trap does usually trigger a lively discussion, with a minority of players either believing the woman or willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Several parties have at least helped the woman out from under the rubble and talked to her before deciding what to do. It's an interesting encounter -- which is of course the point.
This rule interpretation kills that dead. The PCs now stand 30' away and cast Detect Magic. When they get a hit, they kill the doppelganger (which, let's note, is prone) with missile weapons. It turns an interesting encounter into a stupid one.
The boiler room encounter a bit later, same same. Half the interest there is trying to figure out which of the NPCs is the hidden dopp. One cantrip, and the PCs know which cup the pea is under, and can immediately focus all their fire. Again, this turns an interesting encounter with a lot of RP potential into a straightforward and rather pointless combat.
I have to say, _In Search of Sanity_ does not read as if the writer knew that hidden doppelgangers could be revealed by a simple cantrip.
Also, just for fun, see if you can match the archetypes with classic band member stereotypes. No offense intended to any actual band members on this forum...
Singer / Lead Guitarist -- prima donna, center-of-attention, very outgoing/vocal, prince/princess. High maintenance, sex machine, airhead. Never shuts up.
Rhythym Guitarist -- Loose cannon, crazy, belligerent, energetic. Large ego, unless songwriter, in which case immense ego.
Bassist -- Quirky, obsessive, chill, shy. Chain smokes and does a lot of drugs yet, oddly, may be most responsible member of band.
Keyboard -- the "smart one". Sophisticated, snarky, but secretly just happy to be in a rock band after 14 years of Sunday piano recitals.
Drummer -- Hairy-back dude who left school in 8th grade. Last one to set up, first one to go for a beer, but gets obsessive about arrangements.
Sound Man -- Self-esteem issues, sweaty and nervous. Has facial sores.
That's really interesting. Thank you, Gratz.
I notice that the number who've played a particular module in an AP consistently drops from ~95% for the first module (presumably the other 5% started with a module after the first) to around 30% for the last one. That makes sense, and is consistent with my own experience -- it takes a lot of time, and is not always easy, to complete an entire AP.
Also, some APs are clearly better / more popular than others. For a particularly sharp example, look at the numbers for "roleplaying potential", "combat", "plot" and "would you recommend" for Curse of the Crimson Throne vs. Second Darkness.
...after reading the spells in that book I'm convinced Mrakala was an evil, child-sacrificing cultist. Animate dead? Contact entitty? Black tentacles? Scare? Vampiric Touch? Oh my god. Either he -was- an evil Cultist OR his..future..doppleganger self is/was? My head hurts.
Maybe he just had a deep academic, professional, purely technical interest in... you know, driving people insane with fear, draining their life energies, and then turning them into zombies.
He traces fingers over the mokele-mbembe..he's seen one of these before..or perhaps he only wanted to. He vaguely recalls a dark-skinned, grinning face over his shoulder while the broad, scaled creature leaned down to eat from a proffered basket of greens. These memories..are any of them real?
Seems like a reasonable question.
Turning through the last book, he pauses at the inscription. "V. Jeggare?"...
The Jeggares are a wealthy family of Chelaxian aristocrats.
Storyteller Shadow wrote:
Age of Worms, you are looking for the Age of Worms. It's 3.5 but it is the second AP that Paizo did when they were printing Dungeon and it is a classic.
It starts with a long -- some might say overlong -- dungeon crawl. That's classic, fair enough.
But as a practical matter, you'd have to buy... what, ten back issues of Dungeon magazine? Twelve? They're available as pdfs for a few dollars each, so it's cost-competitive with other APs. And you get a bunch of other 3.5 adventures, some of which are pretty good. However, you'd have to juggle about twice as many pdfs, and there isn't all the support stuff (artwork, pawns, flipmats, etc.) that exists for the Paizo APs.
As I said, I hadn't read it, and was working off an impression. Obviously some people like it a lot. That said, as Gratz points out, it's probably not what the OP is after (even if it's pretty interesting otherwise).
Meanwhile, I'd be interested to see a link to the survey that Gratz cites. IMS there have been several over the years, and I haven't really kept up.
-- And is Iron Gods any good? I can't answer that, because I've only glanced at it. However, I have the strong impression that, as Adventure Paths go, it's considered pretty midlist -- not amazing, not bad. Which would make perfect sense from Paizo's POV. They wouldn't want to put one of the weaker, less popular APs out there (they're using Humble Bundle to try to attract more customers), but neither would they put one of their most popular best sellers up (would cost them sales).
Mind, if money is an object, go to Humble Bundle RIGHT NOW and plunk down $15. That will get you the entire Iron Gods Adventure Path, all six volumes, in pdf format. I don't think it's quite as good as either RotRL or Curse, but it's not bad either, and it's JUST FIFTEEN BUCKS which is amazing.
By way of comparison, sticker price for the pdf of a single module of a recent AP is $18 -- meaning you'd pay $108 for the complete six-volume AP. Older APs are cheaper ($14 per pdf, $84 for a complete set), and Paizo pretty regularly has sales or discounts so you don't have to pay sticker price if you're patient -- they're doing 10% off everything right now (check the blog for the discount code). Meanwhile, the AP collections of RotRL and Curse are $60 for the physical hardcover and just $40 for the pdf. That makes them a very good deal, especially since they contain additional new material from the original modules. But they still can't compare to JUST FIFTEEN BUCKS for an entire AP.
You can find the Humble Bundle offer right over here. It ends in two days, so if you're going to do it, do it soon.
Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne. Both have come out in excellent single-volume upgrades. Both have some really wonderful set-pieces -- I would call out the haunted house and the creepy hillbilly ogres in RotRL, and the plague, the insane "emperor", and the Cinderlands in Curse. Both throw a wide variety of different experiences at the PCs -- a rooftop chase scene, a fight in a glass factory -- while still keeping a very "classic" feel.
I'd say a difference is that RotRL is a classic *adventure*. Curse is a classic *urban adventure* (although 2 of the 6 modules are out of the city). Personally, I slightly prefer Curse because you will meet NPCs at 1st level who will still be important and relevant at 15th level as you race to the finish; this is not really the case in Runelords.
In terms of player engagement, I think Curse pulls most players in more strongly even though the stakes are actually lower. Without spoiling too much, the end goal in RotRL is "prevent this ancient evil from rising and menacing the world again". That's certainly classic! But with Curse, it's "prevent the tyrant from turning your beloved native city into a horrific slave state". That gets players engaged and worked up in a different way.
It's macro vs. micro. If your players are going to get excited about stopping The Mighty Ancient Power That Will Spread Darkness Far Across The Land, then go for RotRL. If they're going to respond more strongly to "your city is a place of fear and oppression, your first grade teacher was thrown in jail and then enslaved, and also your favorite tavern has been knocked down to build a new monument to the Tyrant", then go for Curse.
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