Donny_the_DM's page

This is an interesting topic, took long enough to reach the end though...I'm not going to be melodramatic, but I am leaving these boards. I don't expect to be missed either.

First it was 4E, then it was the same 3 or 4 ignorant fools that can't keep their contempt for a dissenting opinion in check. I would have thought it would be obvious when the same poster gets multiple threads modded or locked. I won't name names, because this entire thread is about the same (again) three or 4 people.

To answer the OP, yes, it IS going to flaming hell. The mods are afraid (yes afraid) that heavier handed moderation will chase some of their precious fanbase away. I don't disagree, it is what it is.

I'm no angel, and have toed the line a time or two myself, but I'm tired of it. I'm abandoning this place. Good luck paizo, and I hope crusader of logic is consumed, slowly, by rabid fire ants.

Donny_the_DM wrote:

No reason actually. Other than it's been that way for near a decade. The first one comes early, the others much later.

Now I'm really confused. I thought they came at +6, +11, and +16 ever since 3.0?

oops...blame my clock watching, almost time to go home. 5, 10, and 15 "feel right" with some REALLY cool ability @ 20? So many options!

Sorry about the mixup.

Dice pools would make this sooo much easier eh?

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement.

the issue of the decreased challenge of foes to the player characters.

Well, you may believe it wasn't in need of improvement. A lot of others don't like playing Clerics because "all they do is heal." One of the two Clerics in our local groups wants to switch to a Duskblade (or Fighter/Wizard type) away from Cleric because all she does is heal. The other Cleric is in another game group and loves the Cleric but he has prestiged out and the Cleric is a glorified spell list since his Prestige Class is more levels than his bas Cleric level (6 Master of Radiance/5 Cleric.)

There isn't much trouble on the decreased challenge. Most good DM's need to operate off the "CR Charts" anyway, since their parties aren't always matching the CR they should be. In other words, for my 13th level group I need to throw CR19 encounters finely tuned for them to present a challenge. Granted, they are a 9 player party, but they are also quite skilled strategically. If I threw CR13 mobs at them, each encounter would last 2 rounds or less.

and no wonder! 9 level 13 players makes a CR 13 (first four) +1 for each additional for a CR 18 party! Problem is, they are still only 13th level, and so have "glass jaws" against the higher level stuff. Try a band of 7 or so CR 13 bad guys, and see how it goes.

Donny_the_DM wrote:

What about full bonus, but iterative only come only at levels 5, 12, and 20?

I can't quite figure why those levels. 7th, 13th, and 19th might make sense, from an "orderly progression" point of view (wasn't it something like that in 1e? Can't remember now).

Aha! Characters get feats at odd levels, so getting iterative attacks at even levels instead might be a good thing. But then why 5th?

No reason actually. Other than it's been that way for near a decade. The first one comes early, the others much later. Every 6 would work too, as they are "dead" levels for traditional fighter.

Donny_the_DM wrote:

we had houseruled out iterative attacks, and added fighter level to damage as an untyped bonus.

I like that. I'd maybe not remove iterative attacks, but rather I'd like to see them get full attack bonus, instead of the progressive "I can't hit anything with my 4th attack, ever" one. Even more than that, I'd like them to be able to trade attacks for movement, and use both as immediate actions in response to enemy actions.

On top of that, a damage bonus of maybe 1/2 fighter level as a class feature would sure be nice(keep attack bonus as the current weapon training feature).

good call! I knew there was a reason I kept coming here :)

It has been mixed in results. Things tend to get wonky when you start messing with the mechanical underpinnings. I agree though - Iterative attacks should all be at highest bonus, or the full attack option should always be available as a standard action. These alone would make for a nasty bump in the fighter's abilities.

EDIT: What about full bonus, but iterative only come only at levels 5, 12, and 20?

As to the OP, while I am fine with the "power" level of the fighter class as-is, It would be cool to see second tier feats for Iron will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude that are not epic. The fighter's low as hell WIll save is the classes biggest weakness.

The wizard , more often as not, can hold his own, as long as the combat is "somewhere else". HIS job is to get into the air and relatively safe from melee. The fighter's job is to encourage the heart of the combat to be away from the squishies in the back.

The wizard can be a badass - IF and only IF he has adequate prep time, or a penchant for burning half of his spells every morning before camp is broken. This severely limits their utility in the ongoing "work day". I have personally found that using metamagic enhanced buffs to supplant magical items to be problematic at best. It always comes back to running out of spells too soon.

So, OP, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The fighter IMO, does need a little something else to offset the cubic assloads of damage that higher level monsters are capable of. I would actually reccommend giving the fighter a d12 hit die to offset the fact that all of his decent damage has to be in melee.

A decent dragon fight is good proof of this, a single full attack will drop almost anyone. Period. Same for most of the actual challenging opponents of CR 12+. Before switching to 4E, we had houseruled out iterative attacks, and added fighter level to damage as an untyped bonus. It sped things up a bit, and in conjunction with some of the cool stuff his greatsword was enchanted with dealt...lessee...2D6(base)+8(Str)+4(enchant)+2d6(vicious)+2d6(holy)+d6(thun dering)+15(level) soooo...min/max of 34-69 per round. Not a boatload, but with 18-20 crits, and the absolute nature of physical damage, it made the fighter an irritant that needed to be reckoned with immediately - freeing up the rest of the party to be all strategic and stuff. Problem is, a CR15 dragon full attack is NASTY. Without serious support, he is only a threat for two rounds - tops.

Then again, maybe better HP wouldn't help that much. Go figure.

/sigh.

Upon entering into a very much mutual ignorance pact with an unnamed hostile entity, overt hostilities have ceased. Special ops forces DID however plant one last mine in aforementioned hostile entities front lawn.

Overt action will now cease, and policy of mutual ignorance will be allowed to assert itself. It is better for the children this way.

@kirth - Our DM was nasty that way. It was in retaliation for when he sent us back in time, to save the daughter of the goddess of healing from being destroyed at birth - Unknowingly having the assassin along with us as a party member. I hated that guy, but strangely enough, never missed a game.

I think one of my old PC's is still in the belly of the Tarrasque, inside a resilient sphere...at least his mummified corpse still is.

Zombieneighbours wrote:

Real people do not choose to sleep on a bed roll in the heart of a city when there is a nice bed in an in room they have already payed for.

See my post above. If I'm playing a guy with an 18 intelligence, I make sure he plans ahead a bit. If I'm playing an 8 Int barbarian... not so much planning, then. So, the measure of how the wizard "should" act is not so much what most people would generally do, but rather what highly-intelligent people in dangerous professions would do (Cf. Eric Bana sleeping in the closet, in Munich).

Of course, one could make a case for sharing a room with the party, and/or keeping a watch. Alarm spells are much cheaper than and extended rope trick as well.

I remember a 2nd ed. game from ages ago, where a rogue reverse pickpocketed a dimensional mine into the wizards robe. The rope trick that night sent us to the astral plane. Good times...kinda.

After re-reading the thread, I am curious. Did you actually have a point? I see a ton of worthless fighter this, and worthless crusader that, and a lot of wizards rule, but notice the...

My question remains unanswered by said troll.

I'd insert something about your mother here, but a gentleman never tells.

Oh noes! CoL found me out! how...inconsequential. I just wanted you to stop misusing the argument. Bringing it up 17 times in one thread redefines anal, but to each their own I guess.

EL, CR, all just abstracts. To try and say a 5th level fighter needs 3 buddies to take down another 5th level fighter is...silly.

As to trolling, It is not possible for a troll to call troll. It's in the rules.

Implying that politeness and pleasantry is wasting time shows us that maybe you are on the wrong boards. If we are so aggravating go somewhere else. Being a decent human being is not a waste of time. Defending your snarkyness has wasted more time than all the pleasantries you could have possibly thrown out there.

After re-reading the thread, I am curious. Did you actually have a point? I see a ton of worthless fighter this, and worthless crusader that, and a lot of wizards rule, but notice the title of the thread?

We need CONSTRUCTIVE solutions for making fighters better, not more reasons why everyone should just play wizards, druids, or clerics.

meh, it's the best edition so far (IMO) unfortunately YMMV. One thing for sure, I will never go back to the torture of 3E encounter design...ever.

Don't know what yer talking about mr. OP, I LOVE 4E. My prep time has practically disappeared, Character creation is a snap, Encounter design is a breeze, and my players (all rabid 4E haters) now love it!

Let the haters hate, it's what they do.

It's because no other class outside of Paladin even channels energy.

It CAN be removed from your game if it is causing issues.

Lets not talk Druid buffs please, CoL will be back, and when he gets angry, eyes bleed!

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

Crusader of Logic wrote:

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

For something like a golem guarding a room from intruders wouldn't a suddenly appearing wall be reacted to as an intrusion? It can't reason but it can see something appearing where there wasn't something before. Wouldn't it then begin "smash it to pieces" mode?

Only if it also attacks its master's Wall of Stone.

How would it differentiate? It's mindless. Perhaps its programming is "destroy any intruding creatures or objects except those bearing token X."

I just hate the idea of a low-level illusion being a foil for an iron golem. It goes against the grain.

Ruling against something just because you don't like it. Tch. See what I mean?

Selk wrote:

I brought up the golem scenario as an example of interpretation being a key factor in playing 'overpowered' classes. It's not worth belaboring when everyone is certain they're right.

Personally, it just clarifies the type of player I'd like to have in my group. Aubrey and Kirth types, yes. Crusader types, no. And I'm sure people would hate to have me (and my interpretations) in theirs.

If Crusader's solution in his own group is to not include fighters, but they work fine in other groups, perhaps this isn't an issue? I don't know if the gap between optimization and traditional game flavor is one I want to see closed.

If the fighter has to become a tripping, flying, taunting, spell resistant blaster to keep up with the new realities of combat, I'd just rather encourage minor fixes, deal with a little imbalance, and trust my group to respect the spirit in which it was intended to be played.

Edit

*drinks* Damn you Strawman!

My solution is to allow the issue to be self correcting. My players are welcome to play Fighter types. They can have any gear they can afford any time they're at a place where it can be bought or made. Unless they try to bring in a Ubercharger or some other Theoretical...

Maybe yer doing it wrong.

illusions are mind affecting things. Mindless gives immunity to them.

EDIT: Hmmmm...too slow.

You guys are missing the point. CoL is simply saying that in order to provide useful information, we ALL need to be condescending, whiny, jerks.

That way, we're ALL trolls, so nobody can complain.

I find it absolutely hilarious that 1 in 4 of his posts end up being responses to insults (if not insults themselves) why don't you take your "precious" time somewhere that fits that model a little better?

Nope, instead you will thread crap all over this great board and waste a bunch of everyone's (supposedly precious)time. Lame.

BTW - The Zerg rush is a useful and usually sound tactic that gets results. Since you don't bother actually LISTENING to any of the nice people asking yu to tone it down, there are few other options...Col-land sounds pretty lame tell the truth.

over at my site, http//thefineartofthetpk.com (and affiliate of rpgbloggers.com) I'm just wrapping up our second RPG carnival. There is 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition stuff all over the place. Truly a place where the grognards and newbies can sit together in peace.

Come check it out, and laugh at the silly ads google has seen fit to put there!

These are the folks that convinced me to at least give 4E a chance before trashing it up and down. And you know what? They were right. Haven't had a single argument or flame in the three months I've been up.

Good call Horus. I am ashamed at being baited to the level of said troll(s).

I offer apologies to any who may feel offended, as it appears my verbiage got a little...carried away.

Obviously, my anger at the fools perpetuating these silly 4E attacks seems to be baiting them even further. I will stop arguing with people who wouldn't know 4E from Synnibar.

Again, apologies.

Oh noes, I'v ebeen analyzed and found wanting...by a limey no less. Pardon me if I decide not to pack up my laptop and hide in a corner.

For starters, I made no huge assumption, I simply read your previous posts (between fits of laughter). The assumption apparently being...what? Oh! that you actually care about WotC's marketing moves. You say you do, but last time I checked, runequest and hackmaster (your apparent preferred mashup) isn't a WotC product. So not being what would normally be called a customer, where DO you fit into this? I name thee CONCERN TROLL.

Also, having been on these boards )with alts) for about 18 months now, I see the same old names over and over again. Refusing to buy from WotC ever again in protest. At this point, the lines have been drawn. WotC has nothing to lose in riling them some more. NOTHING. Only the ignorant would think that a cartoon expressing, what? Sympathy? would magically win anyone back. You cannot "mend" a burnt bridge, it has to be rebuilt as it is GONE.

..."4e uses mini's waay too much"..."It's too combat oriented"..."There's no roleplaying anymore"...whine, whine, whine. Ever think they just wanted to let folks know they won't magically undo 4E and call a do-over? Maybe they are just tired of being flamed and baited, and insulted by the ignorant. After reading your previous posts about 4E's lack of roleplaying, I am not surprised you don't get this. You can have this point...go on take it...I'll give it to you because it isn't worth my time arguing.

As to therapy, the fact that you are even disputing my distaste of an argument in which you have gotten all a**hurt about a 2 minute cartoon featuring a dragon crapping on a whiney forum troll says volumes. The fact is you are whining about dragon poop. This would lead any reasonable person to conclude that therapy is needed.

3tards, that's new. If not, you can chalk it up to the fact that I don't go to 3E boards to whine about 3E. I leave them to play their game in peace. Still waiting to hear why you go out of your way to go to a forum for an edition you dislike, just to bait an argument about dragon poop. And really, do I actually have to link it? Should
I hold your hand and wipe your pasty bum too? I've been up to my armpits in this rancorous crap for months, even razz had more style than what I'm seeing right here.

I'll assume that the reason you decided to bring up CWM is...I really don't know. Since you didn't answer the question at all, I'll assume that no, you havent actually played 4E. Typical. A flame baiter coming to the 4E boards criticising the game for vague reasons, completely absent of fact. Smug and assured of his superiority and such. You are a bore. Go spam the pokemon boards, they seem to be more your element.

As to making 4E fans look bad...???...how was this accomplished? I refuted a fool posting silly generalities about something he has no ken or interest in. Doesn't even play a system he dislikes, and can't answer direct questions...you seem to be a bit confused...again, try the pokemon boards, they are probably more your "style".

Donny_the_DM wrote:

So what, you will now buy LESS than NO products from them? Bellyache and whine to MORE people about how "betrayed" you feel? Sorry, but that is just lame, and guess what? WotC knows you aren't coming back and DONT CARE.

Never say Never. There's always 5e.

AAARRRGGHHH!!! Knew I missed something :)

Good point, but we have at least 2 or 5 years to worry about that. Besides, my money in on all the haters coming back if the game "does it right" whatever that means.

There will be all kinds of reasons why they come back, "they fired X", "They brought back X skills", "They listened to MY ideas", but come back they will. Nothing wrong with this, but it should be definitive proof that you can't make everyone happy all the time.

I am just sick to death of all the garbage going round these days. You hate WotC - Fine. You hate 4E - Fine. But why come to a 4E friendly board and make a bunch of piteous noises? It makes no sense.

Wow...that was a good laugh. Been awhile it has.

So, back to the subject at hand, the "offensiveness" of WotC's "attack" on people criticising 4E's...everything evidently.

Guess what? If you took offense at that silly little cartoon you are someone who was already boycotting their 4E line anyway. I grant one or two exceptions here or there, but I would opine that I am in essence, correct.

So what, you will now buy LESS than NO products from them? Bellyache and whine to MORE people about how "betrayed" you feel? Sorry, but that is just lame, and guess what? WotC knows you aren't coming back and DONT CARE.

They has every right to crap on people who accuse them of the awful things they are being hit with. People are getting indignant at being called on their own jackassery!!!!! What kind of fool actually defends trolls anyway?

I mean really, whining on a forum about being offended by seeing a troll get pooped on by a red dragon? (pardon another fit of laughter here.) Go see a therapist, because that goes well beyond the realms of silly human idiosynchracy, and off the deep end of pity parties and professional victims.

IT. IS. A. GAME. Play whichever one you like, with whomever you like, when you like, how you like. The only people who have the "right" to be offended by any of this are the people who decided to give 4E a chance and GASP!!! Enjoyed it, since they seem to be the ones being attacked here. 4orons, anybody?

Calling them fools, WotZis, retards, or any of the hundreds of little backhanded patronizing things I have seen on these boards is IDIOCY in it's vilest form.

So Rockheimer, Do you play 4E? I will assume you do since you have gone out of you way to post in the 4E part of the boards. This assumption being made because only a true Jackhole would willingly come over here just to whine about how offendede they are about the latest ad for a product they hate right? Yup, none of them around here, right?

Folks, isn't it time to let this go? WotC hasn't "seen the light" and decided to cancel 4E. In fact, it would appear a new and more permissive GSL in on the way, several core books are in process, and more 3pp's are signing on as time goes by. It is here to stay...for better or worse. Going online to complain about it is one thing, but when does it end? What do you hope to accomplish? That is, besides turn into yet another internet anonymized idiot, spewing thread-crap all over people who just want to talk about their game - Whatever that game is.

/EndRant

PS - Frankly I don't give two farts in the wind what edition you play, since yes, it IS all D&D.

Cheers!

..."fairly standard complaints"...I'll get back to you when I can get my laughter under control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You almost had me interested, until you completely discounted the fact that 4E DID fix this.

Having to crunch variable mathematical expressions during a supposedly "dynamic" combat is lame. Adding additonal layers of complexity to a complex game is also lame.

Kudos for the effort, but it is misguided. The problems with the class are much more deeply rooted in the core mechanics.

Good luck with that, I'm just gonna go "slide some mobs" because it's fun, and because I can.

Donny_the_DM wrote:

so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.

Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?

Grow up. Really. Just grow up.

sung to the Toys 'R Us theme

I don't want to grow up, I'm a Trolls 'R Us kid...

:)

Beautiful...and appropriate :)

so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.

Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?

Grow up. Really. Just grow up.

LOL! So here we are seeing that they actually DID make the fighter capable of controlling enemy movement...in 4E.

I'm gonna beat on that horse a bit, because that is something the it does right. Isn't it bordering on ridiculous that every single time a mechanical problem pops up in 3E the solution is "create ANOTHER feat" has that helped to this point? OK, maybe here and there, but wow, how many "core" feats are there gonna be? What will THEY unbalance?

I had a ranged fighter in a game not too long ago. He whined and whined about being lame. Finally, I allowed him to bring a single feat from some cruddy splatbook in - Ranged Opportunity Attack, I believe it was. With a 24 Dex he was able to pull off as many as 10-14 attacks per round due to now threatening a 100' radius, as well as haing combat reflexes.

One teensy little feat, and my game balance was GONE. I worry more about the fix than I do the problem.

This is why I switched. 3E was not discontinued, it was abandoned. The fix for this is gonna have to be a complete mechanical rewrite. Bye bye backwards compatibility.

Of course, A bunch of the previously listed examples are using the spell compendium and MIC as source material. BAD IDEA. Those books are as evil as any 3rd party munchkin maker out there.

As for solutions, I got nothing. Then again, if you read my earlier posts, I'm no sure the "problem" here extends much past that groups DM.

In my most long-running 3.x campaigns (one 3.5, the other PF), I have players with characters in the 10th level range and I yet have to see any signs of melee characters being outpowered. In some encounters magic played a big factor (especially on the area of dispelling enemy effects, like fear, confusion and so on) and some casters took down quite powerful enemies. But the key fights have always come down to sword (axe, whatever) swinging.

Clarification: I run a MGP Drow War campaign in 3.5 (right now beginning Book 2) and a PF Rise of the Runelords (midway through Fortress of the Stone Giants).

You must be a little short of power gaming build-monkeys. I feel there really is no "optimal" build for all occasions. Otherwise we would ALL be playing wizards right?

Arguments like this seem to boil down to "I am smarter than all of you because I have found all the proper exploits and loopholes." It sucks. This isn't WoW. Not everyone wants a "perfect" character.

Likewise, I have never had a PC character of any kind outshine the party to the extent being portrayed here. While that is indicative only of MY experience, evidently, I am not alone in this. Every group I have played in fr 16 years has had a fighter in it. There has always been a plae for him. Ironically, it is almost never standing in front of the wizard either. The fighter charges and becomes the focal point of the enemy thrust.

@Crusader - Thank you for the correction. It was mainly the mindless undead and the gut wrenching variety of their builds and tactics I was pointing out.

You are correct though...I forgot to include the ghost though. If it goes incorporeal, IIRC he can see invisible as well. I'm not saying Logicninja's build is BAD, just that it serves a different purpose of the party fighter.

Man, would you guys knock it off? You've turned a decent conversation into a circus of trolling, insults, and more. Grow up, all of you.

To try and bring this conversation back to a semblance of topic based discussion, I would ask a question of the LogicNinja.

I see a pretty hefty achilles heel to your "wonder" wizard build. He seems fairly useless against undead. Considering they seem to make up close to 20% of all the bad guys in the monster manuals, that's a pretty big deal. Add non-golem constructs, and plants, and suddenly we have issues.

Ironically, these are also the areas where a fighter class excels. Undead are generally low-HP, with attacks that tend to target Fort and will saves. Unfortunately, your character build doesn't include any party buffs either (did I miss them?)

At my table, this character would be immensly unpopular. At the first sign of trouble, he flys off and does "his own thing" leaving the party on their own. I feel that this "build" is simply another rules exploit. It betrays the team spirit of the game. This isn't D&-every man for himself-D, it is a game where everyone brings something to the table.

I mean no insult to you, but it just feels a bit "off". I would opine that if this was the end all be all of wizard builds, everyone would be doing it. The fact that they are not speaks volumes.

The OP's question was along the lines of seeking a fix for a perceived shortcoming in the rules. I would say that this is false. It pre-supposes that every class should be capable of doing the same things equally well. That is not the case at all. Your wizard, for all his coolness, would be dismantled in a grapple attack. At 10th level, the party has probably started encountering demons - most of which have dispel or see invisibility as either at-will or X x per day.

Before you go off about having to pull rare creatures out of the woodwork to make a decent challenge for you, I would ask how that is different from pulling creatures with damage immunities up to slow down the barbarian and such. The Barb does a LOT of melee damage...does this mean he is fundamentally broken too?

The fighter is the tank/defender/meat-shield/general melee guy. The wizard is a controller/artillerist/buffer. The roles are so completely different, that this conversation is pointless. Why not debate the poor melee abilities of the wizard? We all know how terible a shot he is with X-bow and ray against higher level opponents right? We are comparing rats to weasels. They are both rodents, but the similarities diverge from there.

This whole discussion is one of the big reasons I ditched 3.5. 4E is by no means perfect, but you will not see any "discussions" like this over on the 4E boards, nor will you. Munchkinism, build optimization, power-tripping, whatever = gone. It is all about teamwork now, as it should have been.

Just finished reading this enormous story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Very friendly read, good character development, fun meta-crunch. All in all, one of the better stories on these boards. Keep it coming!

Dammit, another awesome story dies a premature death...

Here's a base, if you haven't seen them yet:

http://www.neceros.com/forum/index.php?automodule=downloads&showfile=16

I'm not big on interactive stuff, though. I don't like Acrobat Professional: It's more work that I've already done in InDesign that I have to do all over again. You'd think InDesign would be able to automatically make some of this stuff interactive.

THANK YOU! That is a beautiful character sheet!

Greetings Pathfinder Peoples,

Having just received both of my PFRPG betas, I immediately dove into them, and was a bit surprised to see that it looked almost exactly like the Alpha III.

While I understand that this could be a sign of percieved near perfection, as much as I am loving the new game, I am a bit concerned. You see, while the class reduxes are really cool and all with the low level play being much improved, the high level game still sucks the great wrinkled teat of lameness.

Despite all of the piddly complaints about VERY obscure and niggling rules fixes, the biggest problem in 3.5 is high level play. You folks have mentioned it a couple of times, but I see absolutely nothing that has changed enough to matter.

I would assert that one of the primary reasons that 4E was such a radical departure from the 3rd edition ruleset, is that they realized it was broken beyond the realm of an easy fix or errata update. Add the cash cow prospect of selling a whole new set of supplements and splatbooks and Voila! An edition is born.

You see, I hear complaints all over these boards (especially during the edition wars) about how "broken" the system was. Truth is, the game really does grind to a halt above level 15. I've found that even switching to a mainly cinematic/narrative doesn't help either, because THE RULES DON'T SUPPORT IT. This in turn leads to inconsistent gameplay, binders full of houserules, and I STILL spend hours doing prep and watching a battle go on for hours.

The biggest and most obvious example of this is multiclassing. Yes, multiclassing. I have seen dozens of complaints about how lame the "single and double dip" into rogue or fighter is. Personally, I don't agree, but I digress. You see, the rules do not support an even split multi-spellcaster. I refer to the Fighter/Wizard, Paladin/Sorcerer(personal favorite), and all other incarnations not involving druids.

Some would say that a fighter10/wizard10 should be a fairly badass character. You are pretty well versed in the martial as well as arcane arts. You can swing a sword, throw fireballs, buff yourself and others, etc. Problem is, this character is nearly worthless in a CR20 solo encounter. The average AC for a CR20 solo critter is near 40. With a BAB of 14, a (generous) strength of 22, and a +4 weapon = +25 to hit for primary attack. I hit on a 15 or better AT 20th level. Add DR, and spell resistance that I can never hope to breach on anything better than the same roll, and my "Warrior-Mage" becomes a cheerleader. It improves slightly if the encounter is skewed towards the lower end, that is, say a CR15 BBEG with 8 CR 13 Minions. But that is no fix, assuming you want a challenging solo opponent.

If I wanted to play a cheerleader, I would have played a stupid bard! Flame me all you want about "getting what I deserve" and "Broken builds" and all that crud, but I say that I am being punished by the rules for evenly progressing. Why do the rules tell me what kind of characters I cannot play effectively? I mean really, This isn't some stupid Monk/Druid/Bard randomness, this is a viable character concept. Am I now FORCED to find a flavored PrC to "fill in the gaps?" What if I don't want another class? Where are my choices?

I am trying not to rant or whine, but it just seems silly that Eldrich Knight and Practised spellcaster ar the only things ou there that support this kind of toon. Better yet, Anyone try playing a Ranger/Cleric or Monk/Sorcerer? They are just about as useless using an even split multiclass.

Am I stuck now with single or double dipping? Am I missing something? Help me Obi-Jason-Bulmahn-and-staff-Kenobi, you're my only hope!

good call, disassociate ALL skills from class abilities. It is unfair. No "balance" about it.

Appraise...no opinion, there are two opposing and very good arguments.

as to skill consolidation...tough call. I wouldn't mind fewer, more broad skills, as long as there still remains a decent variety.

I too am curious about the Beta. It doesn't seem that much really changed from the Alpha III. I haven't fine-toothed it yet, but nothing has jumped out yet.

Half dragons.

I swear to the powers that be, if I get stuck with one more party with 3 half dragons in it I QUIT!

Though in general, I've found that banning all LA races is a VERY good thing. If one IS allowed, it requires one full page of background and description to accompany it.

Donny_the_DM wrote:

Personally, I think it looks fine. My 20th level alpha 3 game plays about as well as my 20th level 4e game. They both suck equally in that regard. Than again, I've never enjoyed high level play anyway. To each their own.

Somehow, that doesn't strike me as a good endorsement. "Try Pathfinder - it sucks just as bad!"

LOL! More like it sucks differently.

Wasn't going for endorsement. 3e has a huge problem with high level play, 4E has just as big a problem, It has just been foisted off into different parts of the game.

This is an issue that revolves around becoming too attached to the rules in high level play. Around 15th level, the game HAS to be shifted to a less rulesy more narrative approach...anything else will drown the fun out in rules laywering bile. TOO MUCH! Sure some folks dig that, but some don't.

I have no solution, so I won't waste anyones time whining about it. It's a group dynamic, and as such, will be different to each group.

Post deleted due to having nothing nice to say about a post that is all whine and no solutions.

good call. the character sheet drops...tomorrow? We'll see. It's shameful that with all the "web 2.0" and digital initiative talk, that nobody has commercially released a decent product yet.

And the 3 hours was for all 5. They were done simultaneously. 1st level characters at that.

I hope so! The fans would help, though they shouldn't really have to. This needs to come down from the top, though fan submitted materials would be an awesome place to start.

What about it Paizo? Any plans to pursue the digital RPG market? .PDF's dont count. I'm talking about industry leading "get it right FINALLY" stuff here.

I'm with you Immora, that's not bad design...that's bad playing.

I've been playing 4e now since the quick start was released. It's a fun game. Limited, frustratingly linear, incredibly disaccosiated, but fun.

It's Basic D&D, a great way to get newbies in the fold. As such, I play 4e with my wife and kids.

My real gaming group is all 3.5/PFRPG, Advanced D&D - it's not everyones schtick.

That said, there is no RIGHT or WRONG way to play, the game is pretty self regulating in that respect. Besides, we have all the splatbooks to look forward to! In two years each class will have 100 different powers to choose from, at every level. Hell, they've just nearly doubled the amount of rituals since release.

On another note: Who playtests this crap? NONE of this mountain of errata was noticed during the "exhaustive" closed playtest? I'm returning my core books and waiting for the 4.1 reprint, this is just ridiculous.

Please help us! Sell us a fillable .PDF character sheet that crunches the numbers and looks really nice!

I only say this because I have 3 new and 2 old PFRPG players at my new game. The character creation process took nearly 3 hours! Still WAY too much back and forth through books.

IMO, this is one of 4E's biggest(and almost only)strengths - ease of prep and use.

While we're there, can/will Paizo show WotC the way, and have a good 3rd party make some decent e-tool apps? They are SO needed, and yet the only play they've seen has been embarassingly half-assed.

Hell, your fanbase has the skills, work something out! It just seems silly, that in this day and age, the only decent digital content (and by that I mean INTERACTIVE) is fan based stuff. Where's the beef!

Being as it IS the 21st century, would it be out of line to request that you wonderful people there @ Paizo consider a linked Blogroll? The blogging community has been growing, and requires a tad less moderation than the forums do.

I won't waste everyone's time by harping for 10 pages about it, but I feel there IS advantages that can be gained by assisting this up and coming community.