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Captain Zimri wrote:
Alternatively, in Pathfinder, if a PC were to attempt the exact same strategy, what is there to give besides a bonus, the amount of which you need to determine on the spot? How would you calculate a bonus or penalty in such situations?
I don't know if this was carried over into the Pathfinder rulebook, but in D&D 3e there was a guideline of giving characters a +2 or -2 modifier to a roll if the GM wasn't certain what value to give for a situational modifier.
Attempting to distill the opening post to its thesis sentence:
Neal Litherland wrote:
In short, I feel that too often we, as players, forget that having PC levels doesn't give our characters legitimate authority in the game world.
It's long been a trope in adventure fiction that the hero takes on what the local authorities can't, or won't. It's no surprise that we want to bring that into our adventure games. [I'm also currently binge-watching Arrow, so it's on my mind.]
I'm starting to think RP are a bad method of measuring races, honestly, but I'm not sure.
You are far from alone in that belief.
Some 3PP construct races you may not have looked at:
I have no opinion on how powerful or suitable they may be. I'm sure I missed some.
If one wishes to combine Psionics Expanded and Psionics Expanded Work in Progress, it goes up to 271 points. Between that and potentially ignoring paper minis, you may add Kobold Quarterly 20 (51 points), Bullet Points: 12 Alternatives for the Fighter's Bravery Class Feature (49 points), and Bullet Points: 7 Sinful Feats of Lust (49 points). There are four other products in the 45-47 point range: Houserule Handbooks-Spell Points, The Midgard Campaign Setting, the Genius Guide to Horrifically Overpowered Feats, and 15 Specific Weapons, Volume 3. Don't ask me why volumes 1 and 2 didn't do as well as volume 3.
The first two (or three?) Psionics Expanded parts came out this year, too, and got a few points (not included above). I think Way of the Wicked got through book 5 this year, but only 2 got on the top 10 list.
Top 10 Publishers of 2012:
If one wishes to remove Pathfinder Paper Minis from contention, add Jon Brazer Enterprises (50 points) to the list.
This is the year Open Design changed their name to Kobold Press. There was about a month gap between the last OD product and the first KP product; part of the name change? Little Red Goblin Games owes many of its points to its Legendary Levels books. Again, even less dominance by SGG; more publishers are getting more points, it seems. I can't remember if I've heard from Headless Hydra or Abandoned Arts recently.
I'm saving updating the all-time lists for when I'm done with 2013 and 2014.
Now incorporating 2011, and all of 2016 so far:
Top 10 Products of All Time:
If one wishes to disregard the paper minis, add Undefeatable 1: Wizards & Sorcerers (108 points) and Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building (106 points). The Genius Guide to the Godling, Kobold Quarterly 9, and Making Craft Work all clock in at 105 points.
Top 10 Publishers of All Time:
If one wishes to combine Super Genius Games, Rogue Genius Games, and Otherworld Creations, then SGG gets a total of 3359 points. Combining them, and/or ignoring Pathfinder Paper Minis and Big Finish Productions, would lead to adding on Expeditious Retreat Press (333 points), Purple Duck Games (301 points), and Jon Brazer Enterprises (251 points).
If one wishes to combine Tome of Horrors Complete and Tome of Horrors Complete: Unlimited Edition, then it jumps into 2nd place, at 164 points. Psionics Unleashed opened the year big, owned the top spot for three months, stayed in the top half through May, dwindled away for a couple of months, then came back and brought Psionics Expanded with it.
Top 10 Publishers of 2011:
If one wishes to disregard Pathfinder Paper Minis, add TPK Games (28 points) to the list. Louis Porter Jr. Design just misses out (27 points). Super Genius Games isn't as dominant as they were the previous year; other publishers got in the top 10 more often. Legendary Games shows up this year, in late October. It's the first year for TPK Games, too, in late December.
If one group is running an adventure using triple-gestalt mythic egregiously-overpowered-feats, and another is using core Pathfinder with spellcasting replaced by Spheres of Power, and both groups are having fun, does the power difference matter?
SONG OF THE HORIZON WALKER
I was totin' my pack along the dusty Lamasara road,
I've been to:
I've been to:
I've been to:
I've been to:
(I've been everywhere)
I had some free time today, so 2011 data has now been sent off. Just from a rough review of the data as I was pulling it together, two things I don't see changing are the number 1 product and the number 1 publisher(s). But we'll see if my assumptions are borne out.
This will take me a while to get to.
Marc Radle wrote:
I'm still trying to decide what to combine, and what not to combine. Should Path of War Expanded and Path of War Expanded - Work in Progress be combined? What about things like The Book of Heroic Races Compendium and the individual releases that combines? [At least, I think there were individual releases.] What about Strange Magic and its contents, which I think have had three or four different versions? And I'm still not sure exactly what to do about OWC/SGG/RGG.
I'm looking for suggestions. And I'm strongly leaning towards combining Open Design and Kobold Quarterly. I have to figure out how to do it cleanly without damaging the integrity of the data.
In the previous Top 10 Products of All Time list, I accidentally conflated One on One Adventures (283 points) and Spheres of Power (243 points). Since you are all keeping detailed records of this, please insert One on One Adventures into 2nd place, and change Spheres of Power's total to 243 points. Thank you.
Here are the current running totals with 2010 added in:
Top 10 Products of All Time:
Despite the enormous success of OtherWorld/Super Genius, none of their products made it on the top 10 list. It was the large number of products that continually showed up on the list that scored big for them. The only new product is a set of paper minis. If one ignores paper minis, the list changes a bit: add Path of War Expanded-Work in Progress (109 points), Undefeatable 1: Wizards & Sorcerers (108), and Genius Guide to the Godling (105). Aha! There's a genius guide! If Path of War Expanded and Path of War Expanded-Work in Progress are added together, they end up with 148 points, and jump up, barely, to 6th place.
Top 10 Publishers of All Time:
Yes, OtherWorld Creations and Super Genius Games, individually, beat out our previous first-place publisher, just considering the year 2010. If one wishes to lump together OtherWorld Creations and Super Genius Games, and/or ingore Pathfinder Paper Minis and/or Big Finish Productions, add on Expeditious Retreat Press (283 points), Purple Duck Games (213 points), and Rogue Genius ... wait. And Fire Mountain Games (174 points), and add 213 more points to the OWC/SGG/RGG conglomerate. [It's over 2000!] Adding together Open Design and Kobold Press gives them 844 points, and moves OD/KP to 4th place.
The number of points each title is getting is lower than in 2009, despite 2009 not being a whole year. There were 83 distinct products listed in 2009, and 99 in 2010. There were 95 in 2015 (the only other year I have complete data for as of now).
One might also surmise that the Advanced Player's Guide came out in 2010.
Considering the titles we have going on up there, guess who's going to be on the Top 10 publisher's list?
Top 10 Publishers of 2010:
Did you guess correctly? Yes, indeed, the #1 and #2 spots are taken by OtherWorld Creations and Super Genius Games, for essentially the same product catalog. There's a significant drop between #2 and #3, a drop between #3 and #4, and a precipitous fall from #4 to #5. Many, many weeks were mostly OtherWorld/Super Genius, with a few Open Design, and an occasional guest appearance by one of our other contestants.
If one wishes to lump OtherWorld Creations and Super Genius Games together, and/or ignore Pathfinder Paper Minis, add Dreamscarred Press (28 points) and Louis Porter Jr. Design (21 points) to the list. Yes, Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed was ... unleashed ... in 2010. But, it only came on the list in the middle of December.
GM Rednal wrote:
*Imagines a group of magical girls who were empowered by Pharasma, and act as vigilantes within the city to keep the undead down*
One doesn't actually need to be a Magical Child Vigilante to play a magical girl ... and your description closely matches a character idea I have.
Distant Scholar wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Open Design is Kobold Press. The company simply stopped going by Open Design and is now know as Kobold Press.
Purple Duck Games wrote:
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming was purchased by Purple Duck Games.
Otherworld Creations was the parent company of Super Genius Games. Ask Owen Stephens for further clarification. Oh, which also means that most of the Super Genius Games products are now under Rogue Genius Games.
Dang it; I was hoping Owen would chime in on OtherWorld Creations first. I missed the hat trick.
The :-) was there to indicate that I actually knew what happened to the old companies. Thanks to y'all for spelling it out, though; there are probably folks here who didn't know.
Top 10 Products of 2015:
If one wishes to ignore the Pathfinder Legends series, add In the Company of Gelatinous Cubes (50 points) to the list. If that one was free, and you wish to ignore free products, add Everyman Unchained: Monk Archetypes (47 points) to the list.
Looks like this was the year for Spheres of Power. It's had success in 2016, but not as much as in 2015.
Top 10 Publishers of 2015:
If one wishes to ignore Big Finish Productions, add Ascension Games (61 points) to the list.
Since I don't have complete information for 2014, I haven't compiled a list for that year yet.
Here's what things look like in 2016:
Hooray for Kineticists! Hooray for One on One Adventures! Hooray for the Trickster! Hooray for assorted Dreamscarred Press projects! If one wishes to lump Path of War Expanded and Path of War Expanded - Work in Progress together, it goes up to 45 points, and swaps places with #5.
Top 10 Publishers of 2016 (so far):
Well, would you look at that #1 finisher. Rogue Genius is mostly Talented Witch, I think. Rite is probably In the Company of Dragons. And, as always, Expeditious Retreat Press is all about the One on One Adventures. Goodman Games came from their GM Gems early in the year.
And now, for the current running totals, with 2009 added in:
Top 10 Products of All Time:
An interesting mix of old and new. If one wishes to combine Path of War Expanded and Path of War Expanded - Work in Progress, Path of War Expanded jumps to 6th place (148 points). If one wishes to ignore the paper minis, add Kobold Quarterly 9 (105 points) and Path of War (98 points) to the list.
Top 10 Publishers of All Time:
If one wishes to ignore Pathfinder Paper Minis and Big Finish Productions, add Fire Mountain Games (174 points) to the list. I also feel compelled to point out that Kobold Press has 162 points.
A new set of lists!
I've compiled the data up to the 16 April 2016 (today!) "This Week in Paizo" e-mail. I also have the 2009 data that has been sent to me by Sethvir (thank you!). I've made changes in how the spreadsheet has been set up, so that it doesn't take so long to re-calculate everything. The original link should take you to the new spreadsheet, but I'll put a link to the spreadsheet here anyway.
I've also categorized things by year, so there will be more lists. I won't be repeating the yearly lists once the year is complete. They're aren't being presented chronologically, so read carefully!
Here are the new lists, starting with a blast from the (recent) past:
People sure liked their paper minis. If you don't, and want to ignore the game aids (minis/terrain/character sheet), add to the list Undefeatable 2: Clerics (68 points), Kobold Quarterly 10 (55 points), Undefeatable 4: Barbarians (41 points), Undefeatable 5: Fighters (35 points), Hungry Little Monsters [d20] (34 points), Curse of the Moon [d20] (33 points), and Darkness without Form: Secrets of the Mimic (32 points). I skipped over 2 more game aids on the way down.
A special note: Pathfinder RPG products didn't start showing up until late August; that may be one reason for the popularity of the game aids. Also, the lists started in April, so 2009 isn't a whole year.
I never saw an Undefeatable 10: Rogues for 2009; maybe it came out in 2010? If not, Louis Porter Jr. Design has some work to do...
Top 10 Publishers of 2009:
If one wishes to ignore Pathfinder Paper Minis and WorldWorksGames (Pathfinder Terrain), add Radiance House (37 points) and The Shining Jewel (19 points) to the list. Expeditious Retreat Press then just misses the list with 18 points for One on One Adventures, still on the lists today!
Adamant Entertainment is on there for their Fell Beasts series. And once for Tome of Secrets, although that's listed under Cubicle 7 Entertainment the rest of the times. Radiance House is on their for their d20 Pact Magic stuff. I understand that they've done (or are working on?) the Pathfinder version.
Open Design, OtherWorld Creations, 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming ... I wonder whatever happened to those old companies? :-)
For me, the tricky/annoying ones are the name collisions/near-collisions.
Name collisions are almost unavoidable, but I seem to find a lot more of them in Golarion than in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.
The sad thing is that most people don't realize that, if you argue in bad faith, your not actually arguing at all and essentially handing the argument to the opponent.
If one is making an emotional appeal, rather than an intellectual argument, arguing in bad faith might give one the emotional edge. Many (most?) people these days respond more favorably to an emotional argument than an intellectual one, which I think is unfortunate.
If one can argue on an emotional level, but force one's opponent to argue on an intellectual level, so much the better (apparently).
At least, if the end is to achieve something through discourse, then it serves both parties to argue in good faith.
Unless the end that one is trying to achieve is social dominance over the other party, or some other goal that isn't directly about the topic of discussion. Some people do that, which I think is also unfortunate.
Of course, these are debate tactics, and not good rules for an actual, constructive discussion.
The Dungeon Master's Guild (used to be D&D Classics) has at least some of the PDFs for sale; $5 each.
Owen KC Stephens wrote:
Yeah. Something with a huge spike of popularity, but no sales for quite some time after, will show up, but not as a big deal. Something with almost enough popularity may never show up at all, even if the total sales are large. The products that would seem to do best by this metric are the ones that are quite popular rather often. Which, to be honest, happens to be exactly what I was interested in. :-)
I was more getting at the idea that the thrust of the thread initially seemed to be identifying the most popular 3pp products for PF, and that seems to be getting mixed a bit with identifying the most successful company, and these can be two very different things.
That's one reason why I made both lists.
I certainly can't claim to know the answer to either, but I just thought it was important to clarify that the metrics being used don't really account for all the variables in either question, and the answer to one isn't necessarily the same as the other.
I, as the collector and analyzer of the data, hereby solemnly swear that the metrics I'm using hardly account for any of the variables in either question. But, it's what I got.
If the retailers would like to send me all their information about how much of what products were sold when, I will gladly accept it. I promise I won't tell anyone.
I'm wondering what sort of crazy time-travel loops he's been through to get 117 years of experience in the RPG industry.
Marc Radle wrote:
It has been about a month, hasn't it?
I've compiled the data up to the 5 March 2016 "This Week in Paizo" e-mail. I haven't done anything with older data yet. The original link should take you to the new spreadsheet.
Here are the new lists:
If one wishes to ignore the Pathfinder Legends series, add Path of War (69 points). There have been some small changes in points (and 4 and 5 switched places), but the big new book is Kineticists of Porphyra.
Top 10 Publishers:
If one wishes to ignore Big Finish Productions (makers of the Pathfinder Legends series), add Purple Duck Games (114 points) to the list. The top 10 are identical, but some publishers had a jump of 30 or more points. Again, Purple Duck Games' Kineticists series brought them almost to the top 10.
The Power What Be at Paizo are of the (probably correct) opinion that the many, many campaign settings of 2nd edition AD&D is why, at least in part, TSR went under. They're not going to make another campaign setting.
On the other hand, with distant planets and alternate dimensions, it's not too hard to go somewhere quite different and still remain in the same multiverse.
Thanks for all the encouraging words. The data I'm using aren't the best for determining such things, but I don't have access to the best data, so one does one's best.
I wonder how much the top 10 list changes daily though. Since the emails are weekly, if there's a lot of day to day variation, then the weekly snapshots could be only 1/7th of the dataset. One way to check this would be to look at the top 10 list daily for a few weeks and see how much things change.
I'm assuming that the weekly list is the total over the whole week, rather than the daily snapshot for that particular day.
Is there a daily list? I don't recall seeing one.
Rite Publishing wrote:
That's an alternate way of doing it. I'm not convinced it's better.
Rite Publishing wrote:
But if you dont' think the biggest sellers are Frog God Game and Kobold Press your crazy.
I'm crazy! Crazy!
The Razi wrote:
Now annalyze the data from drivethrurpg and similar services... that could give an insight on the profile of shoppers here and there.
Is that data easily available?
Wolfgang Baur wrote:
...and I notice it only goes back to October 2014...
If I had earlier data, I'd use it. If someone found it for me, I'd incorporate it. [I've tried to find it, and failed.]
Due to random curiosity mixed with insomnia, I've created a list that (very) arguably presents the most popular 3PP products. Behold!
I found all the "This Week in Paizo" e-mails that I managed to save, and looked at the "Top Downloads from Other Companies" list. I gave 10 points to first place, 9 to second, all the way down to 1 point for tenth place. I added up the results. The lists contain the 10 products and 10 publishers with the highest scores.
There are many:
Link to Data:
You can download the Open Document Spreadsheet of the data, and my analysis, to work on it yourself. I intend to keep it updated as new information (or old information) comes in.
Top 10 Products:
If one wishes to ignore the Pathfinder Legends series, add Path of War (69 points) and Advanced Bestiary (67 points) to the list.
Top 10 Publishers:
If one wishes to ignore Big Finish Productions (makers of the Pathfinder Legends series), add Green Ronin Press (68 points) to the list.
I still believe that teamwork eliminates any "bad feelings" that come from the disparity, which addresses a good portion of the complaints.
I'm currently in a play-by-e-mail 3.5 game. Our 15th-level party recently came across a room containing nine nagas (it was a big room). My character, a psychic warrior/elocater with a touch of barbarian, is very fast, and rushed into the room towards one of the nagas, struck it with is giant sword, and wounded it! Next up, the wildshape ranger/master of many forms used a blade barrier SLA, and the druid cast arc of lightning. Six of the nagas died.
I was seriously considering having my character mope in the corner after that one.
This anecdote certainly isn't the be-all and end-all of the experience, but hopefully it illustrates that "bad feelings" aren't necessarily eliminated by teamwork.
Oh, and there's this, too: my nephew (who is playing the master of many forms), when we saw the set-up in the room, asked, "So, you're going to run by them and whack them all with your sword, right?" Something that's consistent with the power level of a 15th-level character, completely in character for my PC, perfectly sensible to my nephew as a player, and not allowed by the rules.
Rocket Surgeon wrote:
Look back through threads like this from the last 6 months. It's the same 4-5 people who join the thread to write long posts against the need for a new edition. They usually re-use the same old arguments, along the lines of "backwards compatibility and dollers spent."
Just because they're old arguments doesn't make them invalid arguments. :-)
I'd be up for a re-organization of the rules, but not a new edition (a la D&D 2->3, 3->4, or 4->5).
Meanwhile, the store I go to has an entire section devoted to Pathfinder and has more books for older editions than it does for 5e.
How many books are out for 5e? I don't actually know.
Here's a link to some traditions (and a different multiple traditions rule) I've come up with. The intention is to have many small traditions rather than far-reaching traditions like arcane magic or divine magic.
There are only four traditions in the document right now, but I'd like to have dozens of them, and would encourage players to make their own.
Clearly, Battleship was the best movie of 2012.
I was skimming through Spheres of Power yesterday (I still haven't read it thoroughly yet), and a thought for a campaign world came up: What if everyone in the world had Spheres of Power-style magic? And I mean every sapient being has at least a little bit of magic, and other styles of magic/spellcasting aren't available.
Would one be able to make pretty much general PC character type with just the eleven base classes in the book?
I'm a bit concerned about skill-heavy characters, or if concepts like "raging" or "nature warrior" are covered, or even if they are necessary. But, like I said, I've only skimmed the book. Maybe all the needed stuff is there. It might even be covered in the "Using This Book" section. [I do know about the conversion archetypes, but I'd prefer to avoid those, if possible.]
I'd probably want to make an NPC class (or three—commoner, expert, adept). Other than that, what might be needed? What might be useful? I'm sure some of you are far more familiar with Spheres of Power than I am.
If there seems to be enough interest, I might do some sort of play-by-post here using the idea.