Dissinger's page

Resilience: Allies gain DR /- equal to the Chaplain's charisma modifier that stacks with other such abilities. (Such as Barbarian Damage Reduction)

No way would I ever let that fly, People would start with DR 5- and get it up to DR 10- for the whole party.

Reason I feel this won't get out of hand is they don't have spell casting, so Charisma is NOT the primary stat for this class, despite everything keying off it. They will require strength or Dexterity to actually accomplish anything. If they DON'T then they will really only be talking characters. This is designed to be a frontline leadership style character. Like a Bard that doesn't cast, but mroe ont he reasons behind that later...

Awareness: Allies gain the aura bonus to Perception, Survival, and Initiative Checks. This aura lasts for one check per charisma modifier. (Minimum 1)

If this is not constant then this is useless

This is more to put it in line with other Auras, being able to have this as a constant aura is kinda something I could get behind, but then unlike other auras this one would be a weirder one. It does seem kinda clunky there.

Battle: By shouting words of both encouragement to allies and hate filled vitriol at the enemy a Chaplain creates a dominating presence on the battle field. Add the Chaplain's aura bonus to all Attack, Damage, and Save rolls made by allies. Allies must be able to hear the Chaplain in order to benefit from this aura.

Need to be 3 different abiltys way to strong

Inspire Confidence, and the bard still has spell casting and the same armor proficiencies. I don't see this as being a problem for a character that has these auras, a few supplementary abilities and basically has the option of full attacking or trying to bolster his allies with temporary hit points.

Auras (Su): Starting at first level the Chaplains presence on the battlefield presents a tangible aura of energy that inspires and bolsters allies while occasionally hindering and consuming enemies. These are represented in the auras a Chaplain can call upon when on the field of battle. Auras are always 30 foot range unless stated otherwise and activating an aura is a swift action. A Chaplain can change auras as a swift action, but this counts against the daily allotment of auras. Unless otherwise noted auras last only until the battle they are activated in ends (GM discretion) and affect only the Chaplain and those he considers an ally. These are considered sonic effects and are nullified if allies cannot hear the Chaplain. Only one Aura may be up at a time.

Need to clean this rule up and make it round based this is pathfinder not 4th ed.

That doesn't mean making things last for a battle is a bad thing. Saying that this isn't fourth edition doesn't really help me, other than to show your dislike of a mechanic that is actually okay. The problem with Fourth Edition is the over standardization in my opinion, and the streamlining that seems to have stripped away the flair. NOT the duration of abilities. If you have some other reason for it that's fine, but saying don't use a fourth Edition mechanic doesn't help me. It merely tells me you don't like fourth ed. I also point out that the Cavalier used to have their challenge work the same way.

Did you look at the battel herld Class in the APG?

Yes, and I didn't want the bard casting. While this has bard elements I don't wish to create a bard hybrid. I wanted something almost religious rather than arcane.

I like the base idea but the rule or clucky at best.

Also Full BAB no 3/4 and D8 hit dice not D10

If they had some other way of operating (I.E. spells) I could agree but this build implies front to mid line fighter which means that more hit dice and BAB is going to be more helpful than anything else. Hence the decision for full BAB and D10 Hitdice.

I'm not shooting down your suggestions I'm merely saying I need more argument before I'm just going to change things. Your arguments seem to be more of a because I said so than any real discussion of mechanics.

First off, I apologize in advance if I am not as...vigilant about answering things that crop up. I intend to try and be a sort of guy answering questions on the class I'm about to lay down. Following in the vein of the Gunslinger, the Ninja, and the Samurai, here is the Chaplain, and alternate Cavalier;

Chaplain

BAB: Full
Fortitude: Good
Reflex: Bad
Will: Good

Description
1: Aura +1, Auras 2/day, 1st Aura, Devotion
2: Devotion Ability
3: Die Hard
4: Auras 3/day
5: Aura +2, Fiery Oratory
6: 2nd Aura
7: Auras 4/day
8: Devotion Ability
9: Litanies of Hate
10: Aura +3, Auras 5/day
11: Stalwart
12: 3rd Aura
13: Auras 6/day, Master Orator
14: Carry the Colors
15: Aura +4, Devotion Ability
16: Auras 7/day
17: Heroic Defiance
18: 4th Aura
19: Auras 8/day
20: Aura +5, Avatar

Role: Chaplains form an elite fighting force designed to function near the front lines of battle. If the Chaplain is not leading the charge into battle, he is directing the charge. His role on the field of battle makes it such that he often serves as an inspiring symbol on the battlefield, his firebrand oratory heartening his allies while hindering his foes. Chaplains are often the most charismatic members of their task forces for the fact that they often also serve in a spiritual role, guiding those about them as a shepherd leads the flock. Chaplain is an alternate class for the cavalier.

Alignment: Any
HitDice: d10

Class Skills: The following are class skills for the Chaplain; Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (Religion), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis)
Skill Ranks per level: 4 + int modifier.

Class Features

The Following are class features of the Chaplain.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A chaplain is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor and shields. (Except for Tower Shields)

Auras (Su): Starting at first level the Chaplains presence on the battlefield presents a tangible aura of energy that inspires and bolsters allies while occasionally hindering and consuming enemies. These are represented in the auras a Chaplain can call upon when on the field of battle. Auras are always 30 foot range unless stated otherwise and activating an aura is a swift action. A Chaplain can change auras as a swift action, but this counts against the daily allotment of auras. Unless otherwise noted auras last only until the battle they are activated in ends (GM discretion) and affect only the Chaplain and those he considers an ally. These are considered sonic effects and are nullified if allies cannot hear the Chaplain. Only one Aura may be up at a time.

Starting at 1st level the bonus these auras grant is a +1, at 5th level and every five levels thereafter this Aura Bonus increases by a further +1.

These auras can be used twice at first level and for every three levels thereafter gains another use of auras. At first level a Chaplain manifests their first aura, at 6th level and every six levels thereafter the Chaplain learns another aura from the following list;

Battle: By shouting words of both encouragement to allies and hate filled vitriol at the enemy a Chaplain creates a dominating presence on the battle field. Add the Chaplain's aura bonus to all Attack, Damage, and Save rolls made by allies. Allies must be able to hear the Chaplain in order to benefit from this aura.

Vigor: The Chaplain calls upon his allies to greater haste and creates a sense of urgency in allies. For cha modifier + aura bonus rounds all allies are under the benefits of a haste spell. The Chaplain must be fifth level before he may select this aura. Allies must start their turn within the aura's sphere of influence in order to gain the benefits of this aura. If an ally moves beyond the range of this aura they retain the benefits until their turn ends.

Resilience: Allies gain DR /- equal to the Chaplain's charisma modifier that stacks with other such abilities. (Such as Barbarian Damage Reduction)

Awareness: Allies gain the aura bonus to Perception, Survival, and Initiative Checks. This aura lasts for one check per charisma modifier. (Minimum 1)

Resolve: Allies gain the aura bonus to Concentration Checks and Saves versus Fear, Sleep, and Paralysis.

Spite: Allies gain the aura bonus to caster level checks to overcome SR.

Devotion(ex): At first level a chaplain chooses a devotion that defines how he goes about the battlefield. These devotions grant a bonus feat at first level and abilities at 2nd 8th and 15th level. These Devotions are detailed at the bottom of this page for ease of reference.

Die Hard(ex): At 3rd level the Chaplain gains Die Hard as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for this feat.

Fiery Oratory(ex): At 5th level the Chaplain learns to draw out the hidden wellspring of stamina and vigor even his flock did not know existed. once per day as a standard action the chaplain may begin a fiery oratory designed to renew the spirit of his comrades and help them renew the fight against the enemy. The Chaplain and Allies within 30 feet of the Chaplain gain temporary hit points equal to your Chaplain levels. If they are below half their maximum hit points the number of temporary hit points doubles. At 14th level a chaplain gains a second use of this ability, and at 20th level he can preform this deed a third time.

Litanies of Hate(ex): At 9th level a Chaplain learns that even the strongest of warriors can fail. In channeling and directing their hatred he creates a warrior that will not give up simply because his first attempt failed. Whipping his flock into a frenzy the Chaplain leads the charge using a curt phrase or stern admonishment to cause his allies to fight on with greater fervor. A number of times equal to your charisma modifier each day, a chaplain can, as an immediate action, allow one ally within 30 feet to re-roll a single failed attack roll. You must take the second result, even if it's worse than the first, and you may not use any other ability that grants re-rolls to roll the dice a third time. The ally is so consumed by rage and hate that they are unable to reason until they have ended the attack.

Stalwart(ex): At 11th level the Chaplain learns to use his hate and fury to focus his mind and cleanse his body of sinister magics. Anytime the Chaplain succeeds on a Fortitude or Will save that has a lesser effect upon success (such as disintegrate) they instead suffer no ill effects. If they fail they still suffer the full effects of such spells.

Master Orator(ex): At 13th Level a Chaplain doubles the temporary hit points gained through the use of Fiery Oratory.

Carry the Colors(ex): At 14th level the Chaplain is granted the ability to carry the colors of their organization. Such an honor is not without it's burdens as the chaplain must protect the colors they bear to battle as dearly as their own life. A chaplain that represents an organization may receive a standard from their superiors or if they belong to no organization create their own battle standard by spending 1,000 GP on materials. The standard may be born to battle, taking up one free hand to do so. As a standard action a Chaplain can plant the colors, granting all allies with line of site to the standard the Die Hard feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. The chaplain has decided this is where he shall make his stand, and this is where he shall die if fate should decide it.

An enemy may attempt to spend time pulling the standard out of the ground and throwing it to the floor. This is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If the Chaplain (and only the Chaplain) connects with an Attack of Opportunity, this defeats the attempt to lower the standard.

Heroic Defiance(ex): At 17th level, Chaplains gain Heroic Defiance as a bonus feat, even if they do not qualify for it. (See the Advanced player's Guide for information on this feat.)

Avatar(Su): At 20th Level the Chaplain has become his organization incarnate. Taking the teachings he has devoted his life to, it has allowed his to transcend normal mortal flesh and to ward off the effects of even the most devastating magics. The Chaplain is immune to Death Effects and Aging effects. When the Chaplain has reached the end of his life, he still dies, he merely does not experience the downsides of aging. (He does experience the positive effects) His devotion also grants him an ability that recreates him as the crowning pinnacle of his devotions.

Chaplain Devotions

Chaplains devote their entire lives to a cause, never once questioning their faith. While others may have petty things such as doubt, the Chaplain knows that to wander from the path is to invite destruction. A Chaplains devotion cannot be changed, and if the chaplain suffers from a lack of faith, he may lose access to his devotion's abilities until such time as the spark is rekindled.

War Devotion

Chaplains or the War Devotion gain Knowledge (History)(Int) and Perception(Wis) as class skills.

Bonus Feat:(ex) At 1st level Chaplains gain Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.

Chosen of War:(ex) At 2nd Level a Chaplain of War may spend a standard action to allow an ally to attack a target next to them. The ally must spend their immediate action to do so, but the opponent is considered flat-footed as the Chaplain shouts down the enemy, creating a small opening in the enemy's defenses. Allies must be able to hear the Chaplain to benefit from this ability.

Champion of War:(ex) At 8th Level the Chaplain learns tactical precision needed in the chaos of war. By spending a standard action the Chaplain grants the use of a single Teamwork Feat to his allies for Charisma Modifier rounds per day. As a free action on your turn you may instead of spending a round of duration end the effect. These rounds need not be consecutive, and each activation of this ability allows you to select a new Teamwork Feat. Allies must be able to hear the Chaplain to benefit from this ability.

Herald of War:(ex) At 15th Level the Chaplain learns to lead the charge into the throngs of the enemy. Once per day by spending a full round action the Chaplain calls the charge and invites other allies to join in. If an ally spends an immediate action, they can join the charge so long as they can make a legal charge to the enemy. Once this is accomplished resolve the charges as normal, and all allies gain your Charisma modifier as a morale bonus to the damage dealt. Allies must be able to hear the Chaplain to join the charge.

Avatar of War:(ex) At 20th level as Chaplain of War has seen everything war has to offer, and still cannot get enough. A chaplain of War is considered proficient with every weapon in existence, and even improvised weaponry. Nothing in his hands could be considered a nonlethal weapon, and his expertise is such, that they become Immune to Disarm attempts as well. All critical threats automatically confirm.

Pestilence Devotion

Chaplains of the Pestilence Devotion add Knowledge (Dungeoneering)(Int) and Heal(Wis) to their class skills list.

Bonus Feat: (ex) At 1st level Chaplains of Pestilence devotion gain Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat.

Chosen of Pestilence: (su) At 2nd level Chaplains of Pestilence are immune to the ravages of nature, and even those of magic. They gain Immunity to disease.

Champion of Pestilence: (su) At 8th level a Chaplain of pestilence exudes an aura of foul disease. This aura is separate from the auras a chaplain has access to and does not count against the one aura limit at a time. This aura affects friend and foe equally, and were it not for the immunity to disease a Chaplain of Pestilence enjoys, they too would be more prone to illness.

Infectious Aura - Creatures within infectious aura suffer a penalty to fortitude saves versus disease equal to your aura bonus.

Herald of Pestilence: (su) At 15th level a Chaplain of Pestilence is further blessed, learning how to bring about pestilence in his foes. Choose a disease, this choice cannot be later changed, when you strike your opponent with a melee weapon you expose him to this illness. Additionally for every strike that hits that turn, the DC of the Fortitude save to resist increases by 2, and culminates in one fortitude save taken at the end of your turn. At the end of your turn, this bonus to the save DC resets.

Avatar of Pestilence: (su) At 20th Level a Chaplain of Pestilence creates an aura of infection about him. This speeds up the process of disease and those struck by the Chaplains Herald of Pestilence ability find the disease strikes much faster. Incubation times from your Herald of Pestilence strikes are reduced to 1 round, and each round you may change the disease you inflict upon your target.

Famine Devotion

Chaplains of the Famine Devotion gain Knowledge (Nature)(Int) and Survival(Wis) as class skills.

Bonus Feat: (ex) At 1st level Chaplains of the Famine Devotion gain Endurance as a bonus feat.

Chosen of Famine: (su) At 2nd level Chaplains of Famine find that their need to eat has been entirely removed, and that less sleep sustains them. Chaplains of Famine need not eat, and only require 2 hours of sleep each night rather than the full 8 hours of rest.

Champion of Famine: (su) At 8th level Chaplains of Famine gain the Consumptive Aura. This aura is added to the list of Auras a Chaplain may manifest, and follows all rules for auras. (Except for the exceptions noted in its entry.)

Consumptive Aura - A Chaplain of Famine may create a consumptive aura in a 20 ft. burst centered on him. Any creature that begins its round in the consumptive aura must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 chaplain levels + Charisma Modifier) or suffer 1d6 nonlethal damage and fatigue from extreme hunger. This Aura lasts 3 rounds before dying out. Creatures immune to starvation are immune to this aura's effects.

Herald of Famine: (ex) You gain the Rogue Trick Crippling Strike, and may make use of this trick in any circumstance that sneak attack damage would apply.

Avatar of Famine: (su) When using the Herald of Famine's ability, you may target any ability score, not just strength.

Death Devotion

Chaplains of the Death Devotion add Knowledge (The Planes)(Int) and Heal(Wis) to their list of class skills.

Bonus Feat: (ex) At 1st level Chaplains of Death gain Toughness as a bonus Feat.

Chosen of Death: (su) At 2nd Level a Chaplain of Death is under the effects of a Deathwatch spell permanently, the effective caster level is equal to the Chaplain's level.

Champion of Death: (su) At 8th Level the Chaplain gains the Gaze of the Grave. Activating the Gaze of the Grave is a swift action, and the Chaplain may use this gaze attack For charisma modifier rounds a day. These rounds need not be consecutive. Ending the gaze is a free action at the start of the turn.

Gaze of the Grave - Cower d2 rounds, 30 ft, Will DC 10 + 1/2 Chaplain Levels + Cha mod. Mind Affecting, Fear, Supernatural

Herald of Death: (su) You are under the effects of a permanent Death Ward. Additionally, 1/day you may channel slay living through your weapon as a full round action that does not provoke. The Save DC is based off your charisma, and the caster level is based off your Chaplain Level.

Avatar of Death: (su) You have ascended beyond the petty concerns of the flesh. You are immune to ability damage and drain, and are immortal.

Heroes Devotion

Chaplains with the Heroes Devotion add Knowledge (History)(Int) and Acrobatics(Dex) to their class skills.

Bonus Feat: (ex) Heroic Chaplains gain Iron Will as a bonus feat.

Hero of Fate: (ex) At 2nd Level Heroic Chaplains know that there is nothing to fear, and therefore fear nothing. Heroic Chaplains are Immune to Fear Effects.

Hero of Time: (su) At 8th level Heroic Chaplains can attempt to save others through their sheer determination. When a Saving effect includes the Chaplain in its area of effect, a Chaplain may spend an Immediate action to grant allies to choose between taking his save, or their own. This choice must be made before they roll, they cannot change their mind after wards. They may use this ability Charisma Times per day.

Hero of Destiny: (su) At 15th Level when Planting the Banner, you cannot die from hit point damage. So long as the battle continues any hit point damage is still kept track of, but is ignored for the purposes of staggering or incapacitating you. So long as your standard remains up, this effect continues, or until the battle is over, whichever occurs first.

Hero of Legend: (ex) At 20th Level when Planting the Banner you may as an immediate action make use of the Step Up and Strike feat in reaction to anyone attempting to attack an ally, or knock over the standard. This counts for the Chaplains ability to foil attempts to lower the standard.

Noble Devotion

Chaplains with the Noble Devotion gain Knowledge (Nobility)(Int) and Bluff(Cha) as class skills.

Bonus Feat: (ex) At 1st level Noble Chaplains gain Mounted Combat as a bonus feat.

Noble Scion: (su) At 2nd Level Noble Chaplains gain the Cavalier's Mount special feature.

Noble Paragon: (ex) At 8th Level a Noble Chaplain gains Leadership as a bonus feat.

Noble Exemplar: (ex) At 15th level a Noble Champion may make a noble sacrifice once per day. When an adjacent ally would be the target of a spell or attack that requires an attack roll or CMB check, you may switch places with them, and suffer the effects of the attack or spell. You may declare this after the hit, but before the damage or effects are resolved. This is a free action.

Noble Avatar: (ex) Noble Chaplains know that their cause is true and that their faith is infallible. You gain Immunity to fear effects and in addition, never fail a save on a roll of a 1. If you fail to meet the save DC you still suffer the ill effects, but a roll of a 1 is no longer automatic failure.

Ex-Chaplains

Ex-Chaplains are the bane of existence. When someone so devout falls, it invariably corrupts them against their former devotions. However, some Chaplains return to their devotions after a time, the disillusionment being seen as nothing more than a test. A Chaplain that breaks from their devotions in a rather flagrant way loses access to their Auras, Fiery Oratory, Litanies of Hate, Carry the Colors, and Avatar abilities. Further their devotions cease to empower them as they used to, and so they only retain the class skills and bonus feat of their devotions. If they atone for their loss of faith and go an entire month devoting themselves to their old cause, they may regain their lost powers. This use of attonement does not require a quest.

The ring doesn't allow you to choose any more than the armor does.

I'd assume the text was erroneously omitted from the armor writeup.

Sorry didn't have my APG next to me at the time, if that is the case, then yeah, level requirement would probably been ommitted by memory lapse. Its possible two different people wrote up the items and one thought that level appropriateness was implied.

Now that I read daylight and deeper darkness more closely, I find out that the two spells don't overlap each other (as I thought it did), and that they remove each other completely. That makes sense now, thanks!

What if its a shadow evocation spell that emulates daylight to light up normal dark light? Do people inside the daylight spell get a will save to see if they can see the place light up?

In this case you would be following the normal rules. Note that a person can always elect to fail a save.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html

Look up Voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

I'd say you would be right. It would have a random mystery that is hardcoded into the armor, and grants it regardless of level. Because of that it is a pecific armor than probably should be hardwired to be unchangeable. Since the ring allows you choose it of course has a level restriction on it. The Chainmail, cannot change what it grants.

What about this line?

"Non-damaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect."

Read it again it says if the attack has a special affect other than damage, it is less likely to occur.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/shadowEvocation.html

COnsider the spell to always pass it's save and that it is 20% likely to have any tangible effects. The natural effect of daylight to counter deeper darkness would be a special effect in my book.

Deeper Darkness is in effect.

Player 1 summons a Shadow Demon.

Player 1 has the Shadow Demon cast Shadow Evocation, emulating Daylight, in the area of Deeper Darkness.

What happens RAW? What happens RAI?

As written? You roll a 20% chance that the spell is real enough to affect deeper darkness (since even on a passed save the spell is still twenty precent real. This means that someone who disbelieves a shadow conjuration web still has a 20% chance to being caught)

As Intended, the same happens, its only quasi real so you have to hope and pray that the Shadow Evocation is real enough to break the darkness.

Kommadore wrote:

Sarrion wrote:

Kommadore wrote:

A steadfast gun, +4 enhancement bonus, reduces the misfire chance by 2, minimum 0, that means the gun never explodes

No, it reduces the misfire chance by 2 AFTER it gains the broken condition, bringing it down to 3 with a pistol.

So your odds to have it blow up during a full round attack are quite high and your rate of return is quite low when compared to a +5 Bow which will cost slightly less.

I'm pretty sure that it applies whether the gun is broken or not, so a non broken gun will not misfire, but if the gun otherwise becomes broken, such as using the gun while not proficient which increases the misfire by 4. I really don't think they would have made a +4 enhancement bonus as useless as you described.

Unfortunately it really is that useless...

** spoiler omitted **

As an aside, read it again, you're actually wrong...

It states the modifier is applied AFTER all other modifiers.

When placed on a normal weapon, that weapon has no modifiers, and therefore cannot misfire. The only time your situation applies, is if someone tries to sunder it and only manages to break it instead fo actually destroying the gun.

As was pointed out earlier, if you took the grit class feature out and added in bonus feats it would be a reskinned fighter.

That's what Paizo did, if you look at every deed as essentially a preselected bonus feat, and the fact they get slightly more of them than everyone else, the Gunslinger falls back in line as a more indepth Fighter.

As for the argument that Samurai = Fighter...no it doesn't. Cavalier is the only class other than paladin that has the concept of a code of honor, and repercussions for failing to uphold it. If you played rokugon as much as you claimed, you knwo for a fact that the code of Bushido is first and foremost in a smaurai's mind, be it throwing the code away when necessary (such as with the scorpion clan) or adhering to it to your detriment. (such as the crane or lion clans)This entire argument is not feasible on the ground that these ARE archetypes just with a bit mroe added and subtracted for ease of use.

I for one support our new Paizo overlords ;)

To Dissinger:

What do you think the Ninja did in order to be taught how to assassinate someone?

Sleep-walker, it is quite obvious you convinced yourself that you are right and I am wrong. This argument has left the realm of logic long ago and has probably entered the Protean Realm of Limbo exactly five posts before you threw out this farce of an argument.

If being trained in how to kill required you to actual kill someone, then the US Army would have half the numbers it currently does, because half the recruits would have to die, to effectively train the other half how to kill under your lunacy that you call training.

Ninjas don't HAVE to do anything, in fact they were often deployed against Samurai who had taken their position of power over the peasants and abused them. Many ninja were in fact peasants who the samurai caste had abused as well for this very reason. No character HAS to do anything, they can always chose not to and deal with the repercussions.

Just like you can always choose not to kill someone just to get an assassin guild's attention, but no matter how hard you try, your GM should never allow you to become an assassin because you have skipped a pivotal part of the process.

However that prerequisite is your resume to the assassin's guild. When you become an assassin you are not only saying killing is alright, but it is something you want to make a career out of. No other class in the game other than the Anti-Paladin forces this kind of moral choice. There is a reason Anti-Paladin's are evil too.

You want to hear something entirely legal yet letting your character be showered with gold?

From Serpent's Skull:
1.) Serpent's Skull Player's Guide: "Boarded in Cheliax" Campaign Trait -
"You begin the campaign with...200 gp worth of mundane equipment to aid in your exploration of the jungle."

2.) Advanced Player's Guide:
p. 330, "Rich Parents" Social Trait - "you enjoy a one-time benefit to your initial finances - your starting cash increases to 900 gp."

So that's a perfectly legal 1,100 gp's worth of equipment, only 200 gp of which must be "mundane" (i.e., no tanglefoot bags?) but enough to fabulously equip any character with a horse, saddlebags, and a cart full of adventuring equipment along with masterwork artisan tools. Plus some decent masterwork armor and weapons.

You're only scratching the surface there bucko, you can take a trait to double your starting wealth. Rich Parents can double to 1800.

So would you allow a Ninja in your games who used poison and assassinate to be goodly aligned?

I think the biggest problem here is actually the Evil only requirement of Assassin and not the Ninja at all.

I'm going for bold here to underline what everyone is completely ignoring in favor of this.

Yes, i would allow good aligned ninja, because being trained to kill does not equate to evil.

The Assassin is evil because you must kill a sentient being for no reason other than to join the assassin's guild. That's right, there is no greater good as a part of it, you are committing cold blooded murder for no reason other than to get the assassin's guild to look at you and say "hey he's a good guy to enlist". You are committing cold blooded murder premeditated and everything, just to get into the prestige class. Emphasis mine.

It's amazing what DM's hand wave without considering the implications of. If Assassin loses it's alignment restriction you better drop the prerequisite as well, because you WILL not keep that neutral alignment if you consider killing someone for no reason other than presenting a resume to an organization an acceptable idea.

What about an assassin that dedicates his life to infiltrating the strongholds of tyrannical leaders and warlords in order to assassinate them for the good of the people?

Like I said, neither assassins or ninja should have an evil only restriction in my opinion.

Non-good? Maybe ... but not evil only.

You'd have a good point...

...except for the prerequisite to take a level of assassin.

You must kill a sentient being for no other reason than to join an organization that will teach you how to become an assassin. You know, that little thing that most DM's hand wave?

GMW doesn't care about masterwork.

GMW can also be used on a bow, do the same damage have a slightly lower crit modifier, fire more times per round without feat expenditure or using up a pool of resources, and potentially add most if not all of your strength modifier to the damage.

Arguing that Greater Magic Weapon makes ammunition awesome isn't an argument, because I could argue that a bow is more effective a use for this than the gun. Especially since a shopkeeper isn't handing out free scrolls of greater magic weapon with purchase. Your argument doesn't make it easier for the shopkeeper to buy the ammo from you, it only makes your position more tenuous as now you're relying on even MORE expendables to justify the shop keep buying ammunition for a weapon he might rarely if ever see an adventurer using.

Sleep-Walker wrote:

The method an assassin uses could be evil or neutral. All of these arguments back up my main point.

So my goodly aligned ninja with holy weapons, celestial armour, poison, and assassinate doesn't bother anyone??

Here's an interesting question, If the ability had other flavor text, instead of the word "assassinate" how would everyone view it? Monk's have Quivering Palm, wizards have Power Word: Kill. Does having the ability make you evil, or is it how you use it?

If it was simply called "Quickened Coup-De-grace" would it still have the same stigma?

I always pegged Assassins as evil, as their life is dedicated to the cold blooded murder of their victims, and the prestige class is based on that central idea.

If a Ninja chose to do the same, then that ninja would be evil, but I wouldn't say the CLASS was inherently evil. There are many other types of ninja's and I think the proposed ninja class is varied enough to not require an evil descriptor

+1

Assassin is focused almost solely on the death attack mechanic. The Ninja has it as an aside, but by no means is it the focus of the class. Poisoner rogues have poison use as do alchemists but they are NOT evil as well. Its about the central focus of the class. An assassin is dedicated to the quick and effortless elimination of the opposition. A ninja is dedicated to being the perfect tool for their "master".

You tell me where the difference lies and then tell me again why the alignment restriction is deserved.

I still say that shop keeps wouldn't buy ammunition for guns. They'd SELL it sure, but buying it? They can't be certain of the quality, nor of the safety of their shop by buying gunpowder and bullets from a random adventurer. They'd have a little on hand for just in case, but never too much, because it's stock that doesn't move fast.

Dissinger wrote:

Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.

How so? Rogue adventurers are lining up to buy this stuff.

A couple of pistols with magical bullets and a quick-draw feat together with the sniper goggles makes for a nice way to open combat.

Magical Bullets require masterwork ammunition, the feat doesn't make masterwork ammunition, only normal ammo. Try again please.

It's ludicrous for a shop keep to keep mundane weaponry that most adventurers would bypass for a +1 ANYTHING else.

To expand upon this, the ammunition doesn't move nearly as fast as a quiver of arrows. The shop keep would be taking a bet that someone would come to buy the ammunition. Seeing as how you're a gunslinger and selling the ammunition, obviously you don't need it, so the only guy he's seen so far isn't buying ammo anymore, that makes it hard for him to justify buying the item from you.

Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.

Oh, that's one of the things I would look forward to doing as a Gunslinger... but you would need to rebalance most everything, and with more low level options, I'm sure the Shoot Unattended staying at a higher-ish level wouldn't be a huge ordeal. As it stands now, how many of the deeds are things you would be super excited to use, aside from targeted torso shots? Heck, one offsets the crummy misfire/broken mechanic at cost of grit, and one lets you go prone for grit... (Devs specified that dive for cover being free was a typo - it's supposed to cost a grit.).

Sorry to get off the original topic... I just really love the flavor of the Gunslinger, and hope a full rewrite happens to make it playable on top of fun.

I think we can all agree this class is under the harshest scrutiny.

Is the base combo laid out broken?

Nope, not at all. I demand any of you to justify a shop keep to buy ammo for a weapon so exotic in this time and age that they would be willing to buy ammo at half cost to resell. If you are in a steam punk world, this is easier to justify, but in a normal fantasy realm, gunslingers will be so few and far between they would be seen as a curiosity.

Now, back to the discussion at hand, I would like to see them make use of more abilities that require you to have grit, rather than spend it. I think this would add to the flair of the gunslinger, as when a gunslinger runs out of grit, it really begins to sink in. Suddenly he's drained, stuck in a place he really doesn't want to be, and his head just isn't in the game. It creates an interesting momentum with the character that forces the player to DO something or risk their character being horrendously gimped over the course of the next few rounds.

If you notice, Pathfinder has a habit of hitting "I Win" buttons with the nerf bat. It's why CODzilla is resting in peace. Why so many save or dies are now save or take an uncomfortable amount of damage, and why the melee classes are almost equal to spell casters. (There is a number of things a spell caster can do to keep ahead of melee types, but the gap did narrow considerably.)

I honestly believe this is a Magus case, where they are purposefully starting weak and seeing what the class NEEDS to thrive, rather than starting too powerful and worrying that changing ONE mechanic makes the house of cards come crashing down.

That starts getting into just how 'powerful' the capstone ability is... which frankly, I find to be a bit sad... as your ultimate ability at 20th level, you get to do what you can gain at level 11 as a feat, albeit 2x? Really? Definitely somewhat lackluster... especially since most deeds aren't exactly 'powerful' perse.

I would even go so far as to think that maybe a new 20th level ability is called for, and that a 'slinger can choose one particular deed to mark as signature at every level where new deeds are gained... not to mention introduction of a LOT more deeds and rearranging the power level on some of them. (Shoot unattended object and blast lock at level 11? Seriously?)

Blast Lock I agree, but when you can disarm someone with a shot to the arm, then shoot their weapon away from them, it becomes a serious problem. As a swift action you take aim, and shoot the two handed sword out of the barbarian's hand, then you scoot that sword off a cliff. Sure I got an angry barbarian looking at me, but his damage production just went down the toilet without me taking more than a full attack. Especially if you signature deed lightning reload.

EDIT: As for the capstone, I'm more than certain this is a repeat of the Magus class, where they are purposefully undervaluing the Gunslingers abilities to see what is too much for the power curve, far better to start weak and grow stronger than start stronger and grow weaker. Probably the reason why Grit is so limited, because it activates all their worthwhile class features.

Atop this you could have taken deadly shot and been getting +2 damage per shot, when you make touch attacks in the first range increment it doesn't matter if you miss out on the +1 for being within 30ft. I would rather have something like a 16 dex, take a -1 still have a +3 vs. touch AC and 1d8+2 damage.

With Heirloom weapon you could have had a +5 versus touch instead (+1 for masterwork +1 for heirloom weapon -1 for deadly shot for 1d8+2 damage, again I can't impress the importance of this feat.) and been solidly hitting. If you had played a wizard you'd be hard pressed to do that much damage, but then again you'd also probably have taken color spray to instant KO opponents for at least one fight that day in a 15 foot cone.

Edit: Edited to account for the fact the guy wasn't completely crazy.

I might have also taken something like

Deadly Aim
Rapid Reload

I think that would have been okay for you, and you'd be saving your grit to keep your weapons from blowing up on you. When you get a feat, you could then take extra grit or progress into working through point blank's tree and into improved precise shot, then ricocheting shots around corners and ripping people apart when they aren't invisible.

.

.

Some idea's

• Let the gun cause a saving throw vs Reflex. If you fail your saving throw, ignore Dex, Armor, and Shield AC on the attack roll. ((I would still allow Dodge feat +1 to AC, since you paid a Feat Tax for it)).

So wait, this is an attack like a save? What is the save? Bab 1/2 bab 1/2 hit dice? Whats the damage? If it's too low you're better off grabbing a sword, if it's too high you're effectively turning a fighter spell caster by having him grab one of these.

Everyone in a 25 foot radius of shooter, has to make a Will save (except shooter), due to the loud sound. Those who fail there save are "Shaken" for the remainder of that round. === New Feat: Accustom to guns: You have grown up around guns, and used them so much that you are no longer bother by the loud sound and smoke of guns going off. You do not have to make a will save vs being shaken, due to the sound of guns going off.=== Can be added to off set this feature.

No feat tax for something like this. Make it a trait. I shouldn't have to take a feat because one of my party members decided to play with a new mechanic. That is bad game design.

Damage should be keep small = Ball 1d4, Copper jack slug 1d6, Copper jack with gun cotton 1d8. Then if you want to, you could add extra like Exploding +1d4, Exploding Shrapnel +1d6, Armor Piercing +1d8 and no reflex save vs bypassing armor, automatic. The extra's would be military issue and not for local purchase... could find on black market.... depending on local laws. ((example: You got a Copper Jack gun cotten Armor Piercing bullet for 1d8 + 1d8 damage and Armor/Dex/Shield AC does not apply))

At that point you're basically creating the mechanics for a class. Once more I know you're throwing out ideas, but really the problem is when you have to write a book for something so simple as a single weapon, you're breaking of the the very precepts of the game. Keep it Simple.

Range should very between 50 for early models, up to 200 for the very advanced version. Then you could add Scopes for +50, to +100 onto rifles to be a better snipper.

range increments being played with I could see. I understand you are throwing out new mechanics but from the standpoint I see there is no reason to implement some of them, unless you want to recreate the 3.5 warlock, just call him a gunner. That would probably be a better way to go about it than the convoluted mechanics you just described.

Like Ogre said, you can create and design rules, but the more complex they are, the less likely anyone other than you wants to work with them. Its the reason i prefer Pathfinder over my friend's "Edge" combat maneuver resolution bunk. I hear it and I just want to groan.

But is there any official word on if Clerics are the only ones to get the sub-domains? I mean I, perhaps hastily, assume that anyone with access to domains can take them, am I right?

Panda40 wrote:

Amazing. Major creepy....

Where has this location appeared in before? Mikaze mentioned the mod 7 Swords of Sin...

It's located in Varisia, a bit north to and in-between Magnimar and Korvosa. It's only been featured specifically in the module Seven Swords of Sin and in one of the fiction pieces(The Pathfinder Journals in the AP volumes). It's also one of the city-states that make up the centers of power in Varisia, but Kaer Maga's influence is simultaneously less(in that it doesn't have outlying holdings like Magnimar and Korvosa) and further-reaching(Kaer Maga draws a LOT of strange folk from far-flung places. It's a haven for outcasts, strange cults, smugglers, and all sorts of unscrupulous types).

It's a very likely locale to turn up for people playing in adventures set in Varisia who do a good bit of travelling. (Being purposefully vague to avoid spoilers, of course)

I thought of it as having a Mos Eisley crossed with Sigil's Great Bazaar, from how it was described in other sources.

It also briefly is featured in book 4 of Curse of the Crimson Throne. More of a stop off on your way to reaching somewhere else.

No. There are points were the game cannot be fun for everyone evenly at all times. The golem is a perfect example. In the real world. Alternating extreme heat and cold causes metal to become brittle and break down. Attacking an iron golem in Pathfinder with this method simply slows the creature and wastes spells. Do I need to complain because fireball is not the OPTIMAL choice every single time? Heck no, I need to diversify a bit. What makes your rogue so special that you have to use the same 'tried & true' method of sneak attack and when that fails a player is allowed to call foul? Pure rubbish. Multiclass into a martial class, take ranks in use magical device, carry potions and vials of acid or flaming oil. Try to envision your character in a different way instead of just having tunnel vision and trying the same approach. Casters have been doing that since the game started and have thrived because of it.

One would argue then that the Wizard casting fireball repeatedly does the same thing over and over, while the rogue has to find the weak spot and exploit it, perhaps in a different way each time.

Also one would argue the rogue is in by far a less optimal position as his answer to the golem puts him right in attack range, while the wizard has the best ac in the game, not being around to GET hit.

Quote:

If you can't come up with a way to beat an enemy, then come up with a way to bypass the enemy. I don't see why the game has to be dumbed down such that bull-headed players can ALWAYS beat every creature they happen upon. This isn't 4E.

And I don't see why you should make a class 100% useless because you decided to use one of the one in four monsters that make it impossible for a rogue to do meaningful damage.

Also, I wouldn't flame bait 4th ed like that. People round here don't do the editions wars anyways.

Yes, you caught me... a rogue killed my father and I'm on a mission to get the class removed from the game, hence, it's a matter of my hating rogues not a matter of my taking issue with rule changes I fail to see a worthwhile reason for.

And there we go, you admit to anger towards rogues. Admission is the first step towards acceptance. If you felt the rule change wasn't needed, you are perfectly free to house rule it away. No reason to act so confrontational about it.

"It's a matter of my hating rogues not a matter of my taking issue with rule changes I fail to see a worthwhile reason for."

Screams that you've made up your mind. There will be little to no chance of changing your mind.

Dissinger wrote:

Joints hold the bone in place, if you shatter the joint, no movement can occur with those bones. If you're going to argue that medical truth, let me take a sledge hammer to your knee caps and lets see how well you walk away from that.It goes beyond the tendons that make it move, the joint is the fulcrum upon which the force must be applied to move in the first place. It is the hinge that allows your leg to extend or bend.

What joints? Undead skeletons are held together by magic - the same thing that makes a stone golem able to bend its stone arms.

And you'd be wrong, skeletons are ANIMATED by magic. They are held together by completely natural means. Hence why so many skeletons still manage to stay together, despite long since having their skin rotted off.

Also it could be argued that a golem should be covered in runes and sigils that animate it. If you mess with those, you'd be just as likely to interfere with the magics running it, as the fighter who bashes it to tiny bits.

Deanimating it is yet another means of overcoming the challenge.

Which you seem to be all for, the overcoming challenges outside of normal means.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

eh first off ya need to bypass the DR 10 not always easy without weapons made for that, so your Rogue say level 9 when this guy would be a challenge is doing..humm 5d6 or so. I am not a great math guy bu thats around 17 hp+ weapon..yeah congrats ya did 9 hp or so unless your packing +4 weapons ya have issue

So one vote for "it made rogues cry". Not all parties had a rogue to begin with, and it wasn't critical hits that were key to taking down enemies in the first place. If golems were proving to be too difficult to beat it would seem more rational to REMOVE the DR in favour of straight HP (thus, combat would involve wearing them down) instead of just making all constructs suddenly vulnerable to criticals and sneak attacks.

I smell a fair amount of anger and resentment at rogues in general.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

You know where your arm connects to the shoulder? Hit it there enough and the arm comes off. As for a skeleton, are you serious? Take off its head! Break its spine! Shatter the right bone and make it fall over, render it unable to walk! The only thing that really makes sense to be immune to crits are elementals and incorpereal beings. Things that are pretty much made up of one type of matter, be it ectoplasm, fire, or ooze.

Oh really? Are we cutting the tendons that don't hold an undead skeletons arm on? What is it you imagine sits between a skeleton's arm and a skeleton's shoulder to keep that arm in place, exactly? Do you envision a series of ropes keeping an animated statue's lower leg attached to its upper leg? How exactly is a skeleton's head more vulnerable than its foot? Because it holds its EMPTY EYE SOCKETS that it somehow needs to see, or its empty cranium in which its especially vulnerable lack-of-a-brain sits?

Tell you what. Take a steak knife and then take a WHOLE WEEK to examine a local marble or metal statue for its vulnerable point, and then make it crumble in three stabs, please. Maybe try that at the local dinosaur museum on the skeleton of a massive extinct beast of your choice. Obviously a...

And we just hit a 10.0 on the anger meter.

Joints hold the bone in place, if you shatter the joint, no movement can occur with those bones. If you're going to argue that medical truth, let me take a sledge hammer to your knee caps and lets see how well you walk away from that.It goes beyond the tendons that make it move, the joint is the fulcrum upon which the force must be applied to move in the first place. It is the hinge that allows your leg to extend or bend.

But you don't really care, if you did you wouldn't be confrontational, and also wouldn't act nearly as snide.

You're crying over a rule change that most likely caught you off guard, and you want Paizo the big bad meanies that made your ability to screw over rogues limited, to undo the "unfair" and "unnecessary" change.

I just don't get the rogue hate. Its as if rogues aren't magically lumped in with all the other melee classes and sucktastic after level 10 in 3.5. Its like rogues have the panacea that makes melee not suck anymore, and therefore the fact that casters dominate the game with their ability to control the battlefield, MAGICALLY stops working after level 10 with a rogue in the party.

meatrace wrote:

Disenchanter wrote:

Then I am later shown to have a clue about what I speak...

This part actually hasn't happened.

You keep saying that the rules don't say WHEN you have to choose a feat,

Selective reading at its' finest...

What I have been saying, is that the rule isn't clear enough to assume that everyone can simply understand from constantly quoting the same damn rule.

Try catching up this time.

Actually, what you've been saying is the rule doesn't say when you have to make a feat selection.

Way to move the goal posts.

KaeYoss wrote:

Speaking of D&D Dragon deities: Isn't Bahamut as a dragon god also pretty much D&D-specific? Because there is a Bahamut in various Final Fantasy games, where you can summon him and he has the form of a dragon (or a draconic warrior that can transform into a dragon-shaped fighter jet). And the first FF also had a five-headed dragon called Tiamat apparently.

Apparently (says Wikipedia) Bahamut was a giant fish in Arabic myth... Also, D&D predates FF by a number of years, but references to it can be found in many FFs (mind flayers even showed up once). The Japanese seem to have particularly enjoyed early D&D mythology (see, for example, Record of Lodoss War, where the characters can almost be directly associated with D&D classes, not to mention the elves & dark elves)

For the official record. Record of Lodoss War was actually a direct copy of a DnD campaign that occurred. I forget the official term, but essentially its a DnD campaign made into an anime.

Here is my take on the situation.

No, you cannot delay taking a feat.

You can delay leveling up, but not a feat selection.

Confusing? Let me explain.

The leveling up process is one complete cycle. When you initiate it, you cannot continue play until you finish it. That means simply that if you want to delay feat selection, you cannot have the other benefits of leveling. The rules for leveling up are written in such a manner that there are steps and rules to leveling up. Once you have finished the process your character has leveled and is legal for play.

When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.

Bolded for emphasis.

The first part of this section states clearly that to add a level to your character sheet, you must take the following steps in order.

This reinforces the imperative that feat selections must be made immediately upon leveling, as it is now listed twice in the same area.

This makes it different from the ranger. Also its asinine to assume that since the ranger is worded in such a way as to emphasize from choosing from the two styles in the main rule book, that the APG will not include wording that invalidates that single line. Further, that its most likely a case of ranger cut and paste from the 3.5 SRD.

If they talked about choosing from the many ranger styles would you start barking about how there are only two and two doesn't constitute many?

Probably, because you're merely trolling because you like to feel important by pushing as many peoples buttons as possible.

Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.

You.

Me.

Babies.

Now.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

How does a bridge pervent goats from crossing? Wouldn't a bridge enable the goats to cross?

Not if its a construct built to look like a bridge that then proceeds to crush said goats upon attempted crossing.

As long as the gorram DM doesn't make a combo encounter with both a bridge AND a gazebo. Killer DMs. Sheesh.

C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

That said, the ratio of insight to vitriol is extremely low on the Den, I understand if people think it's not worth digging through, but the OP asked a simple question and that thread at the Den answers it: this is what Pathfinder's detractors got to say about it as a system.

That thread you linked ended up alot like the one in the GitP forums. FatR spouting how the game wasn't what he wanted, and people basically bashing Paizo for not coming up with their ideas for the perfect fix.

In short they were player's telling the GM he's wrong and that the GM should die in a fire for thinking he could do something right.

I think I can easily show some of the larger issues I had with the thread;

This is quite true. However, I think the problem is that they initially began using Pathfinder to refer solely to their own campaign setting, with a series of adventures for 3.5. They then hit upon the idea to make a "just different enough to avoid copyright infringement" version of 3.5 as their own system, and whether through idiocy blinding them to the fact that it's not 3.5 anymore, or possibly legally having to make greater differences, they don't see it as different from 3.5. Soon, I believe, Pathfinder will refer solely to their own campaign setting, but still be proclaimed as being Backwards Compatible with 3.5.

I just want to point out, this guy obviously has no clue as to what the OGL was and furthermore seems to think its perfectly okay to lambast anyone who makes use of it.

The thread is so full of trolls as to make it a horrible way to present your case Wind. I might suggest another thread with a bit more civility, especially when some of the people don't know what they are talking about. It creates two potential situations;

1) The player believes the lies sewn into that thread about PF and chooses not to play a system, knowing only half the truth because these Grognards didn't know the truth themselves...

2) The player decides not to believe anything in the thread and makes an uninformed decision based on the fact that the flagrant flaming in that thread made him disbelieve the argument being made in the first place...

I personally don't care if you wave a list of problems with the system at the OP, but making him put on hip waders to go through that flame fest in order to find a nugget or two is a disservice to your cause.

Awesome! But jeez, 9 characters and you added a summoner! The management of that alone impresses me to no end.

I think it works mainly because the party has become more of an adventuring company, than a true blue party. I'm sure there is a few "core" members of the team, but the supporting cast seems to switch in and out.

In that case, I'm betting that only about 6-7 are present at any given moment, and that these guys are good enough to their DM to let him know who's coming in advance.

If this is the case, its alot easier to manage than 9 PCs plus eidolon.

The tarrasque isn't a very good monster for an epic Adventure Path at all. He's only CR 25. He's PERFECT for an end-game boss against a group of 20th level characters, though.

You heard it here folks, level 20 AP coming soon!

;)

Dissinger wrote:

pres man wrote:

I will say the biggest "problem" with PF for me, is the fact that it changed the rules just enough that a person with a PF rulebook couldn't sit at my 3.5 table and play. That rulebook would be ultimately useless to them, and it would have been better if they printed off the 3.5 SRD. This created a situation, either I force everyone in my group to toss their 3.5 PHBs and all purchase PF's, or I bid PF good luck on its voyage, but remaining on the shore as it sails away. I chose to stick with 3.5.

So your problem is that the base rule system of a game based on 3.5 but considered an evolution of those rules, can't revert to the older system it evolved from? Wasn't that the same problem 3.5 had with 3.0? I mean yes, there was a lot of compatibility but it also took some work if you wanted to use 3.5 material in a 3.0 game right?

Yes, it is a similar problem, and luckily the people I gamed with hadn't invested heavily in 3e before the switch over, most didn't even have a 3e PHB and were sharing at that time. The same can't be said now of 3.5 in my group. My group has invested more heavily in 3.5. Still there was room for more core books, as the DM and host, I am always on the look out for a new core book in case someone forgets their's. And there is still a player that doesn't have one, using a printed out copy of the SRD, it would be nice to pitch in and get them one for christmas or their birthday, like we had done in the past for a player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought. I was just pointing out its not the first time such a thing had occurred. It's also not exactly a complaint about the system so much as a complaint about it's existence. That's more what the OP was referring to IMHO.

Dissinger wrote:

I mean, I get that you don't want to force your group to choose, but I don't see how you are complaining that a revamping of the rules means they are fundamentally different than the rules they changed. Perhaps complain is the wrong word here. I can't think of a word to describe the situation, so complain is the best this lexicon of mine can come up with.

I guess beef would work too, at least that doesn't have a whiny connotation.

Basically I am just asking, is your...problem with PF based on the fact that the rules changes were so much that you can't use a PF book to play 3.5, and if so, why so surprised?

I am not sure where you are getting all of this negative emotion? Surprised? Who is surprised? Whinying? Why is it whinying to respond to the OP with the problem or issue, I have when that was pretty much asked for?

1) More an externalization for my thoughts to show you I don't think you're a whiner, just have a lack of a better term for the situation.

2) I thought this was an honest critique of the system, not a complaint that it exists, which your main problem seems to stem from.

I understand if my "issues" are not your "issues", I've read posts where people have said they are buying everyone in their group a PF core book and are also buying themselves multiple copies. I think that is great, if you have the funds for that good for you and your group. It just isn't really an option for my group.

Again, I thought the thread was for the debates about the mechanics of the system, not a grounds to say "It sucks that Pathfinder exists because if someone wants to play pathfinder I can't support them."

Your problem seems more to stem from that than any mechanical problem, at least as far as you have said in this thread so far.

I will say the biggest "problem" with PF for me, is the fact that it changed the rules just enough that a person with a PF rulebook couldn't sit at my 3.5 table and play. That rulebook would be ultimately useless to them, and it would have been better if they printed off the 3.5 SRD. This created a situation, either I force everyone in my group to toss their 3.5 PHBs and all purchase PF's, or I bid PF good luck on its voyage, but remaining on the shore as it sails away. I chose to stick with 3.5.

So your problem is that the base rule system of a game based on 3.5 but considered an evolution of those rules, can't revert to the older system it evolved from? Wasn't that the same problem 3.5 had with 3.0? I mean yes, there was a lot of compatibility but it also took some work if you wanted to use 3.5 material in a 3.0 game right?

I mean, I get that you don't want to force your group to choose, but I don't see how you are complaining that a revamping of the rules means they are fundamentally different than the rules they changed. Perhaps complain is the wrong word here. I can't think of a word to describe the situation, so complain is the best this lexicon of mine can come up with.

I guess beef would work too, at least that doesn't have a whiny connotation.

Basically I am just asking, is your...problem with PF based on the fact that the rules changes were so much that you can't use a PF book to play 3.5, and if so, why so surprised?

I've heard the caster level is equal to the summoner's caster level.

Can you give an eidolon a high level spell-like ability if its base Charisma is NOT high enough, but then becomes high enough due to a headband of alluring Charisma or similar item?

Doing it that way? No.

Putting it on before the morph THEN adding the SLA? Yes.

Difference is, one has to prepare ahead of time as opposed to creating currently, then making it retroactively legal. If the headband goes away then the SLA would probably be unusable till such time that he could again.

SO with that, its feasible to have someone create an eidolon, only give two stats to cha, making it a 13, pay 36k for a +6 cha headband, then give it wish 3/day.

Then at 20th level make themselves into a duplicate of the eidolon and cast wish five times rapidly to get +5 to all his stats.

Does the Augment Summoning feat also provide its bonus to the eidolon?

The eidolon isn't considered summoned, but rather called through the one minute ritual it takes to bring it to the world. Because of this Augment Summon doesn't work.

Ah, I didn't think it was referring to the class feature but an actual judgment.

I ran her tonight, unfortunately for me, the greater invisibility monk and the cavalier made short work of her initial form. I kinda figured that would happen, but I hadn't expected it to essentially happen first round, so I learned a bit about encounter design. I did however work into making her into a Drider. I had basically built the encounter over a fleshwarping vat and planned on having her try to fall in when she "died".

So for those interested I'll also throw that one up. The stats changed of course, and what I did for the attributes was took the Drider's base stats, then used the template for adding class levels(+4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2), and re-added the 12 levels she's supposed to have. That turns her into a CR 14 Drider with class levels and I felt that was rather fitting. Perhaps her initial form could have used some fleshwarps, I realized that AFTER I got there and was looking through the 4th book. I felt the potion of Greater Heroism I gave her was kinda wasted...

Breathless Reborn (CR 14)
CE Large Aberration
Female Drider Bard 8/Rogue 4
Initiative: + 4 (4 dex)
Senses: Darkvision 120 ft., Detect Magic, Detect Good, Detect Law, Perception +17
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Defenses
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AC: 28 (10 + 4 Dex + 6 Armor + 1 Dodge + 8 Natural – 1 size)
Touch: 14 (10 + 4 Dex + 1 Dodge – 1 size)
Flat-footed: 23 (10 + 6 Armor + 8 natural – 1 size)
HP: 252 (21d8 + 84)
Fort: + 11 (2 Bard 8 + 4 Con + 1 rogue 4 +1 Resistance + 3 Drider)
Reflex: + 18 (6 Bard 8 + 4 Dex + 4 Rogue 4 +1 Resistance + 3 Drider)
Will: + 16 (6 Bard 8 + 2 Wis + 1 Rogue 4 +1 Resistance + 6 Drider)
Defensive Abilities: +2 vs. Enchantment, +4 vs. Bardic Music, Sonic effects, and Language Dependant Effects, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion
Immunities: Sleep
CMD: 36 / 48 vs. trip (10 + 18 BAB + 4 Dex + 3 Str + 1 size)
SR: 23 (11 + 12 character levels)
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Offense
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Speed: 30 feet (6 squares), 20 climb (4 squares)
Melee: +20/+15/+10 +1 Elf Bane Rapier (1d6 + 5) Crit 15-20
and +15 Bite (1d6 + 1 plus poison)
Ranged: +19 Hand Crossbow (1d4) 19-20 crit
Special Attacks: +19 Web (DC 24)
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Statistics
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Str: 17 (+3) Dex: 19 (+4) Con: 18 (+4) Int: 17 (+3) Wis: 14 (+2) Cha: 26 (+8)

BAB: +15/+10/+5 (+3 Rogue + 6 Bard +6 Drider)
CMB: +18 (+15 BAB + 3 Strength)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Brew Potions(1), Eschew Materials(3), Combat Casting(5), Defensive Combat training(7), Mobility(9), Improved Critical (Rapier)(11)
Skills: Appraise + 17, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +21, Knowledge (Local) + 21, Bluff +17, Perform (Oratory) + 20, Craft (Alchemy) +17, Spellcraft +17, Perception +15, Sleight of Hand +11, Stealth +15
SQ: Poison Use
Bardic Music as a move action 23 rounds a day
Bardic Knowledge +4 (Bonus to knowledge checks, may make them untrained)
Lore Master 1/day
Sneak Attack + 2d6
Trap Sense +1 (Bonus to reflex saves and AC against traps)
Find Traps +2 (Bonus to perception checks to find traps)
Finesse Rogue – As Weapon Finesse Feat.
Combat Trick – Bonus Combat Feat (took dodge)
Poison (ex) – injury, save DC 18 Fort; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 str damage; cure 1 save. Save DC is con based.
Combat Gear: +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Elf Bane Rapier, Potion of Heroism, Cloak of resistance +1
Other Gear: Headband of Charisma +2

Spell Like Abilities: (CL 12)

Constant: Detect Law, Detect Good, Detect Magic
At Will: Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire
1/day: Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Dispel Magic, Suggestion, Levitate, Deeper Darkness (DC 19)

Spells: (CL 8)

0 Level Spells (6 known / At Will) – Lullaby (DC 18), Mage Hand, Open/Close, Read Magic, Message, Prestidigitation
1st Level spells (5 Known / 6 a day) – Hideous Laughter (DC 19), Silent Image (DC 19), Ventriloquism, Grease (DC 19), Cure Light Wounds
2nd Level Spells (4 Known / 6 a day) – Heroism, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Mirror Image
3rd Level Spells (3 Known / 4 a day) – Good Hope, Haste, Confusion (DC 21)

Bardic Music Known (23 Rounds a day) – Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate (DC 20), Inspire Courage +2, Inspire Competence + 3, Suggestion (DC 19), Dirge of Doom

But when I was looking over the Inquisitor (Thinking of pulling one together to get a feel for the building of one.) I noticed under True Judgment it mentions that while it eliminates the bonuses of all your judgments, that the Slaying Judgment doesn't get reduced.

Is this supposed to reference the Smiting Judgment, or was the Slaying Judgment removed and this is now a bit of dead text?

Here are a few other questions I have after taking a closer look at negative levels.

One, are ongoing spells (those with a duration other than instantaneous or permanent) effected by negative levels (by way of the level variable penalty)? For example, would a wizard's mage armor duration be shortened if he was hit with negative levels after it had already cast it?

Two, what state of life or death is a character who is reduced to 0 or lower HP by virtue of the -5 HP penalty? It is entirely possible that a character could have his total HP reduced to 0 or less without actually having the negative levels equal his class level (ie a wizard who averaged less than 5 HP/level, say a 5 level wizard with 19 or 20 HP normally, hit with 4 negative levels). Are they dead? Dying? How can they be healed/raised? Do they get another save as the negative levels aren't permanent.

I know I can rule however I want in my game. I'm just curious what others think. Your thoughts?

Cheers

1) It is just like a wand. The caster level is set at the time of casting, and does not change in the interim even if the source of the spell (I.E. the caster) suddenly becomes less powerful.

2) As for the HP problem? Treat it like Normal HP, its possible that a person just doesn't have enough willpower to fend off the negative energy and it eats him alive. While not damage per say, its still affecting you as if you were damaged.

Indiana Jones and the temple of Mwangi.

Serpent Folk based AP with Eando Kline if I remember correctly.

So how long have you been playing for - I agree with the old school game store attitude - Going to a Games Workshop store scares the crap out of me they have to be pumping their sales people full of something because they dimension door towards you and hit you with a sales pitch of power.

As a former GW employee, I wish I could say we didn't have to do that.

The truth is we do. Kinda sucks and its part of the reason I'm a FORMER employee. I also hate some of the company policy.

As for what I see, we started out in a 4th ed gaming shop. The guys who run Fourth are actually an awesome group of guys, and starting in February they're going to devote a table to Pathfinder Society. It may not be much, but it is a start, and perhaps over time we'll convert the whole group. I also note some of the bloat books are beginning to be packaged together for 4th ed. Buy 2 get the third free to clear up some 4th ed space.

Being from Alaska, I had never actually seen or tasted Wonder Bread until I joined the Army. Blech! Sourdough is what I was brought up on and it's my favorite to this day.

Being a Californian, HEAR HEAR!

I ran it as written. I didn't have time to rewrite it. And from doing so, I saw that 4 and 5 need to be heavily rewritten.

4 is not nearly as bad as 5. 5 takes a lot of effort and requires you to be on your A game to role play it and NOT need a rewrite.

I say this because it HEAVILY relies on you conveying the right information during the meeting with the queen. Fail to do so, and the PC's are left with a huge question mark over their heads.

Dissinger wrote:

Using Spectral hand however to get a free grope on a few women of good repute on the other hand...

Do you actually receive the "touch" sensations through a "Spectral Hand"?

If so, I may need to take my Wizard out shopping.

If not I know that the book of exotic fantasy has a spell called grope that does...

Voted for...

Chymick
Ardorwesp
Skintaker
Ossuary Golem

I did avoid this thread until I had voted, and barring a gun to my head, they won't change by Monday.

Using Spectral hand however to get a free grope on a few women of good repute on the other hand...