Disenchanter's page

Disenchanter wrote:

A mixture of unresponsive and ad hominem arguments.

I'll simply say that I see no reason to expand on my existing responses.

That is because they have no bearing on the discussion at hand, that you can't even see anyway.

Thanks for playing, enjoy the the home game on your way out.

So, basically, the short answer is "nothing". So how does this academic exercise contribute to a discussion of balance (which is where we began, after all)?

Let me see if I can't end this cat and mouse game.

Please go back to my original post in this thread... No, wait. I'll save you the trouble.

I can only add a little to the discussion, but I can say it is fairly easy to spike your AC - given enough funds, and time.

Admittedly, this is from memory, and worse - 3.0 rules...

But we had a party member who had a ridiculous AC of 60 some odd at around 20th level. And if he wanted to reduce his attack chance, he could push it above 70....

But it was overshadowed... Believe it or not, it hardly ever mattered... But that is a story for a thread that points out how the 3.0 spell system really needed the fixes 3.5 put in.

But it did bring up the issue of tactics.

Even with a 70+ AC, that character was extremely vulnerable to grapples.

Now, I figured this community didn't need to have it spelled out, but I was wrong. I tend to forget that I need to write for the least common denominator on the internet.

But let me translate.

"I can only add a little to the discussion,"

What I am about to write has very little to do with the current discussion.

"but I can say it is fairly easy to spike your AC - given enough funds, and time."

If allowed to, a player can easily increase their AC much faster than their attack bonus. (I mean really, do a "price is no object" build for attack, and see how sad it stacks up to a similar build for AC.)

"Yada. Yada. Yada."

Just some background to give a taste of where my upcoming point is comming from.

"But it did bring up the issue of tactics.

Even with a 70+ AC, that character was extremely vulnerable to grapples."

Ahah! Eureka! The point.

Tactics can, and often do, balance out any perceived problem.

Anything after that was from a misunderstanding I had with Saern's post, which I took as a question of how it happened, rather than what that post was meant for. (Which I still don't fathom, but is very irrelevant at this point.)

As far as balance, Jeremy Mac Donald asked if any one else noted the trend of AC boosting being easier than Attack boosting. And I seemed to stay on that topic.

And as long as you want to wave the "default D&D" stick around, let me retort with this:

3e in general, and 3.5 more specifically, shifted the focus to character (and therefor party) survival. It is quite intentional that Defense increases are more prolific, cheaper, and easier to acquire.

So then, there must not be any balance issues to discuss - right?

Note that if you are wearing armor, the monk's belt does precisely nothing, so the Armor bonus, at least, seems suspect.

Fair enough. Even if I give you that you can't have +5 Bracers of Armor +8 (which I, personally, believe you can - or should be able too), that takes away 5 points and adds 8, increasing the AC total to 70 without even scouring extra books for obscure published material.

You've spent 32 points on raising both DEX and WIS to 18 at character creation,

Ah... But you are assuming point build, and not ridiculous rolling methods

and you're taking a double bonus from the same source (two Defending weapons).

Not quite, the description of Defender states that its bonus stacks with all others, strongly suggesting that it can even stack with itself.. Munchkining? Sure. But quite within the rules.

And how much money did this character spend for this AC?

I never claimed it was cheap, nor appropriate. Saern, thinly veiled a challange to me to "prove" my claimed AC values. There were no limitations on how. I even stated that this was based on tremendous money expenditure.

Even without the problems with the build, what, exactly, does this character do besides raise his AC? How can he usefully contribute in a 20th level group?

Well, to be fair, this was based on a 3.0 group where only 2 characters contributed to the group. The typical encounter went:

Round 1
Sorceress takes out all supporting enemies (3.0 Time Stop + 3.0 Haste + three to nine overlapping area of effect damaging spells)
Cleric (me) takes out BBEG (3.0 Harm + sacrificial dagger {+5 Dagger of Speed})
Round 2
Barbarian cries because we didn't leave him anything to fight again.
Ridiculous AC guy "Good. Again I didn't even get dirty."

They don't reflect anything that would arise in actual play and they rely on a DM with limited reading ability, no spine, and no common sense.

No, there you are transferring your values of game experience onto everyone else.

In the above game, it was a "fun, free-for-all, hack n' slash game." The GM even challenged us to break the game as best we could.

And we did. And had a blast doing so.

Which was good, because when 3.5 came out shortly afterwards, we knew exactly why the spells and abilities were changed the way they were.

But more to the point, just because you believe that it doesn't make sense to have Flaming, and Frost on the same weapon - doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you. It is magic after all.

Now, there have been claims about ACs in the 60s and 70s on this thread, but the only ones proven with build writeups have been in the 30s, some touching on 40. Valegrim had a thread about high ACs months ago, in which I believe someone got 51 AC, assuming no wealth guidelines, and even that was questionable because of some of the stacking the guy used.

I'll take this as an indirect challenge to me to "put up, or shut up."

So I broke out my 3.5 DMG and PHB, and started taking notes. I did have to touch upon Complete Adventurer for one of my examples... But I am fairly certain I could come up with a Core example if need be.

Keep in mind, this is based on the idea that if the GM is fairly lax about magic item availability, that the same holds true for other things - like attributes.

20th level character AC bonuses:

Base - 10 points
Attribute - +22 points (+12 from Dexterity [18 base, +2 racial {Halfling or other}, +5 inherent {Tome / Manual}, +6 Enhancement, +3 level bumps = 34 Dex) (+10 from Wisdom {1st level Monk, or Monk's Belt} [18 base, +5 inherent {Tome / Manual}, +6 Enhancement, +1 level bumps = 30 Wis) (1 level bump not assigned)
Competence - +5 (19th level Scout, for example)
Deflection - +5 (Ring of Protection +5)
Enhancement - +15 (+5 to armor, +5 to natural armor, +5 to shield)
Other - +10 (Fighting with 2 Defending Weapons)

And that gets me to a 67 AC without even adding in any actual Armor, Shield, or Natural Armor values... And I haven't even touched on Alchemical, Circumstance, Dodge, Insight, Luck, Moral, or Profane / Sacred (Assuming that the GM wouldn't allow both at the same time) bonuses yet.

Given enough Gold flow, and unrestricted access to items, it is quite possible to get an insane AC by 20th level.

I can only add a little to the discussion, but I can say it is fairly easy to spike your AC - given enough funds, and time.

Admittedly, this is from memory, and worse - 3.0 rules...

But we had a party member who had a ridiculous AC of 60 some odd at around 20th level. And if he wanted to reduce his attack chance, he could push it above 70....

But it was overshadowed... Believe it or not, it hardly ever mattered... But that is a story for a thread that points out how the 3.0 spell system really needed the fixes 3.5 put in.

But it did bring up the issue of tactics.

Even with a 70+ AC, that character was extremely vulnerable to grapples.

If you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it.

Hell, if you have any idea on how to make Pathfinder a better fit for your store, I'd love to hear it.

--Erik Mona

Top of my head idea:

"Vendor Codes."

A series of codes, one for each copy of Pathfinder you sell a vendor. At least 3 sections to the code, the vendor ID, the issue ID, and a (at least semi) unique section. For more security, add multiple unique sections.

The vendor has the right to hand these codes out as they see fit... Paired with hardcopy, individual sale, combo deal.

The receiver can submit it online to Paizo for a PDF copy of the issue of Pathfinder. (Or, at least a discounted priced PDF.)

One submission per code.

If you suspect a Vendor of "cheating," just block the vendor ID section.

It isn't perfect, but it at least is a good starting idea. Someone make it better for me. ;-)