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Dire Lion

Dire Mongoose's page

2,545 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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I think the rarity even made the problem worse -- because now, once you've played a 1E/2E melee character who had a girdle, every melee character you play thereafter is going to mechanically pale before them until the next time you find one. It's such a huge bonus that it really skews the balance of the game.

You'll think, "Oh, my 16th level fighter can handle this, my last 13th level fighter could beat these enemies." Not while doing half the damage despite being several levels higher he can't.


Honestly I much prefer 3.X/PF's version of the item to 1E/2E's -- back in the day, whether or not you had a girdle of giant strength was much much more important to how dangerous your character was in melee combat than almost everything else put together.

And really, how much fun is that?


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Clectabled wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher
Hmmm That's interesting, a d6 character with 11+ HP / level. That would give him a 24-26 con to average 230 HP. (assuming he rolled an average of 3.5 on the die roll)

Don't forget favored class bonuses and Toughness. And full HP at first level, for that matter.

This is also assuming that we're just talking base HP and glossing over the fact that wizard or sorcerer can pretty quickly keep False Life up permanently, etc.

Between those and being able to craft a +CON item for cheap it's not uncommon for me to play something like a wizard and have the highest HP total in the party quickly. Not that a barbarian or whatever couldn't be built to go higher but more that they tend to have different item priorities.


setzer9999 wrote:


Any thoughts? Official input?

I go with your reading of it, but that's mostly because

1) This is only really worth a feat if you have Sneak Attack, and

2) Rogues are reasonably feat starved, and

3) I personally view Combat Expertise as a punishment feat. (That is, it forces you to have a stat high on a character that you probably don't want to have to spend the points on, it forces you to take a feat that is also weaker than most other feats, and it's a feat you need for other feats which actually are cool).

So I look at this and think: semi-auto flanking at the cost of two feats on a rogue? Yeah, that's not breaking the game.


Numerian wrote:
The Soulcatcher and the Howler are interesting, fun characters, or Shivetya. I don't remember others that well. I think Malazan surpassed its inspiration considerably.

Man I soooo disagree with that.

If anything I think Malazan took the wrong lessons from Black Company and not the right ones.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

If it was 15 point buy I'm sure someone would suggest

Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18+2
Wis 7
Cha 7; and vehemently defend it as the absolute best distribution.
It's not. You've crippled yourself in several areas just to keep that 20 Int.

None of which hurt you as much as 20 INT helps you.

If we are talking about optimization, which in this case we are.


Black_Lantern wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?

More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.

If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.

I understand why people do it. I know the class is good.

Okay, then why did you ask a question you already knew the answer to? :P


AdAstraGames wrote:


False Life is a bad choice for most sorcerers (unless you're doing something thematic)

I go the opposite way on that one: the human favored class bonus for sorcerer is so good you'd have to be crazy to not pick it (from an optimization perspective, anyway), which means you're potentially a very low HP character, relatively -- even the party wizard's probably taking an extra HP every level. To slightly offset that and milk the sorcerer's versatility, you pick False Life and pretty much keep it up for life.


Black_Lantern wrote:
Why would you ban one of the most flavorful classes in the game?

More than just about any other class, you need to build encounters specifically to challenge a summoner. That pretty much means you can't run any of the older APs (for example) with a half-competent summoner player unless you feel like rewriting huge swaths of the adventure.

If you're a GM with a limited amount of prep time or energy it's easier to just ban the class and call it a day.


In general, I think the APG staves are much more reasonably priced than the CRB staves.


One angle that works pretty well as long as you don't overuse it is to introduce encounters where winning or losing isn't precisely about the PC's survival. That is to say, they can all survive and still lose the encounter.

Maybe the PCs encounter an enemy first as part of a tournament or contest with combat that isn't to the death.

Or, maybe the bad guys' henchmen beat the PCs to the dungeon and they're trying to run off with the loot. The challenge isn't not to die -- the henchmen are mostly just trying to make a run for it -- but to keep them from escaping.

Or, maybe the PCs are trying to rescue children from a burning orphanage with fire elementals and the like inside torching the place. They're in some danger, sure, and they'll do some fighting, but winning or losing that encounter isn't really about their survival, it's about the children's survival. For more mercenary PCs, maybe they're trying to rescue a guy with information they want instead. Oooh, I'm sorry, as the burning building fell on him because you were too slow, it crushed his skull beyond Speak With Dead being possible.

You get the idea.


houstonderek wrote:
I blame, in part, Tim Armstrong and Green Day for that.

Wait, we're not talking trash about Operation Ivy, are we?


The NPC that you start the adventure working for is ethnically Varisian despite being in Katapesh (I don't think I'm spoiling anything that doesn't come out in the first five minutes of play) -- maybe you're Varisian too and a distant cousin come to help her out.


Alch wrote:
Klebert L. Hall wrote:
The rules contradict him in any case. Not only is the example mace flanged but the description of mace specifically mentions an ornate head. That is hardly a ball on a stick. He also abandoned the discussion when it was shown that his points were nothing but hot air.

This is the perfect example for what I mean. Instead of accepting that someone else has a different opinion, some people need to badmouth others behind their backs, even after they have left the discussion.

You can have a different opinion. What you can't typically do (or, at least, and get away with it) is assert your opinion as fact when other information contradicts it.


Galnörag wrote:
I was always partial to Jacqueline Carey's "The Sundering", which is a two novel series, Banewreaker and Godslayer which is kind of the standard fantasy trope told from the bad guys side and leaves him as a rather sympathetic character force by the "evil" good gods to be the antagonist.

I was thinking the same, although depending on your point of view it doesn't fit the bill.

Basically, it's Lord of the Rings told from the side of Sauron's guys. Carey isn't exactly ripping off LotR a la Sword of Shannara; she makes it so obvious she clearly wants you to know and make the connection that she's riffing on it.

I might also add R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing to the list; things go rough for the only character I could make a serious argument for having a Pathfinder-style Good alignment, and mostly it's like a sociopathic character scheming against other sociopathic characters, evil political opportunists, and, hey, some monsters that are like Cthulhu monsters, if Cthulhu monsters had an overdeveloped sex drive, with a psychopathic murderer as one of his closest allies.


Sissyl wrote:
This will be controversial... I really think A Song of Ice and Fire has gotten its death toll on characters overhyped.

Maybe, but

A Game of Thrones Spoilage:

I can't think of anything else I've read where the author sets you up to see a character as the protagonist of the series, then abruptly kills him 2/3 of the way through the first book.

I've yet to meet anyone who read AGoT when it first came out, i.e., before anyone or anything or internet memes or HBO could spoil it ahead of time for you, and who didn't get to the chapter where Ned Stark died and actually believed he was dead right there and that it wasn't some kind of crazy trick or plot twist. Because the protagonist obviously can't die right there...

There are other kind of shocker moments, of course, but that one I think remains the biggest gut punch because you just don't see it coming.


Alienfreak wrote:

So in which AP is it bad to play a Paladin because the enemies are mainly neutral and seldom Outsiders/Undeads?

Every AP ever released is PERFECT for Paladins... some more... some less...

Either English isn't your first language or you didn't really read what he wrote...


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about fighting one guy with your primary hand and another with your off hand. For some reason, the guys I game with think it's cool.

Okay, so: the problem isn't that two weapon fighting is inherently silly, it's that the guys you game with are inherently silly. :)


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Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
All those examples are of people wielding two weapons against one target. I'm not talking about that. That's fairly realistic. What I'm talking about is the nonsense of some guy with two swords or two pistols fighting two guys at once. I see it in films all the time, and it's usually how I see the fighting style used in D&D, and it just isn't happening. Concentrating on one opponent is one thing, but on two simultaneously? No. Even IRL fighting styles that teach fighting multiple enemies teach you to go after one at a time.

So what you're saying is... people play D&D and take one hand's attacks against one enemy and the other hand's attacks against a different enemy rather than focus fire on one until they're down?

I can honestly say I've never seen someone do that, and I've seen hundreds of 2WF characters across multiple editions.


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booger=boy wrote:

Do you guys think we pfinders obsess too much over race and class balance?

Nope.

The base game should be as balanced as we can make it. If individual groups want to deviate from that and let people play crazy crap, more power to them, but the baseline should be a game in which all the players get to contribute without the GM having to go out of his way to make it happen.


I'd pretty much round in favor of the demilich kicking ass. Maybe not only does it get to eat an eidolon, but that summoner doesn't get to have an eidolon until they kill the demilich and set it free. Etc.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

It's basically the same. N***** being evil doesn't let the paladin outshine the barb. It just lets the paladin catch up.

+1.

Smite's a really good ability, and the Pathfinder paladin may be the first version of a D&D paladin class that isn't either A) a trap or B) really, much better as a dip than a straight class or both -- but it's still not like it's always the paladin's time to shine.

As number of encounters per day goes up, the value of smite goes down. As the number of non-evil or morally ambiguous (e.g., casting detect evil in combat is not worth your time) enemies goes up, the value of smite goes down. As the number of enemies per encounter goes up, the vlaue of smite goes down. Etc. etc. etc.

If I was trying to find things I thought were too good or gamebreaking, the paladin wouldn't even make the list.


Hyla wrote:

How often gets a ranger to use his maximum favoured enemy boni? Maybe 20% of total fights? Maybe even 10% or less.

Once they make it to 3rd level spells, favored enemy applies in 100% of fights that really count.


I have to say Wizard just because they have that much broader of a spell list (even factoring in that Witch gets some nice things that aren't on the Wizard list). There's just too much good stuff that's only on one or two Patron lists, and you only get to pick one.

I don't think the Witch is in any way a weak class and in many encounters I wouldn't be surprised to see it outperform the Wizard -- but when push comes to shove I think the Wizard is still king..


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Jeranimus Rex wrote:
I would like to mention that any DM who has issues w/ hitting AC should just start rolling behind the screen and then say hit or miss depending on the die roll and not the modifiers.

Maybe "if the DM has to cheat to make it competitive, it's overpowered" should be the threshold. :P


Nemitri wrote:
Spontaneous spell casters having to wait 1 more level to gain new spell levels compared to prepared ones.

Technically, that's a rule you don't like, not an option you don't like.


Paul McCarthy wrote:

R Scott Bakker's stuff. Some good ideas, but the books are just painful to read. Way too much philosophy pushed on the reader. Tried three times to read The Darkness That Comes Before, but gave up each time.

FWIW, I struggled a bit with TDTCB but pushed through it for some reason, and sometime through the second book I was hooked.

Paul McCarthy wrote:


Steven Erikson. There's some good writing and ideas there, but really not worth wading through all the dry sawdust.

The thing that gets me about Erikson is this:

If you've ever gone to a major gaming con (say, GenCon or Origins) for the full duration, at some point, a gamer you haven't met before or at least don't know well will try to relate the events of their home campaign to you. It is clear to you that, to them, this campaign is the coolest thing ever, but, to you, it just kind of sounds cheesy and lame. These PCs died, but came back as gods for no good reason? And X, Y, Z ridiculous things? Okay, whatever.

That's Gardens of the Moon for me: a thin novelization of someone's RPG campaign that probably seemed cool as hell to the people in it but doesn't have the same charm for me.


Luminiere Solas wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:

Count me in the pile of human being the best race.

Maybe if you have a GM that allows all the Bestiary races for PCs (and I never have) it's too easy to find something that outshines the human for most characters, but using just the core races I'd pick human most of the time.

the only truly overpowered bestiary races are stuff along the lines of the drow noble and svirfneblin.

For Example, The Ifrit fire sorcerer may have a higher effective casting stat, but the human sorcerer will know more spells

The Aasimaar cleric may have bonuses to wisdom and charisma with no penalty. but channeling isn't so important for a cleric, and strength would be a better stat than charisma to invest in.

The point isn't that the bestiary races are truly overpowered; the point is that with a much wider variety of races to pick from, you're more likely to find a race with +2 to two stats that you care about and -2 to a stat that you don't care about.

For some characters you can do this with the core races; for example, if I'm a non-melee bard, I care about my CHR and CON and I don't care about my STR, so gnome looks pretty good. For all of the characters where the stat setup of elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome doesn't give you +2 to two stats you care about and -2 to a stat you don't care about, the human (and half-elf/half-orc, to some degree) setup of +2 to whatever stat you want and no negatives looks better, especially when you factor in that their racial abilities/penalties tend to be better for most characters as well.


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Count me in the pile of human being the best race.

Maybe if you have a GM that allows all the Bestiary races for PCs (and I never have) it's too easy to find something that outshines the human for most characters, but using just the core races I'd pick human most of the time.


DeathSpot wrote:
The RAW never once says that a fighter cannot cast spells. It never says that a wizard cannot channel energy. Obviously, this is because pathfinder is a permissive ruleset. Just as obviously, we need to read the rules with some common sense, or we end up with the interpretation that you cannot use any feats when you're mounted (which, by the way, I did not claim). That's where the disagreements show up, of course (and that's, by and large, a good thing. Everyone in lockstep makes for a poorer game, I think). But when you require two different sides of an argument to adhere to different standards, you remove the point of the discussion. We have a couple of mechanisms in Pathfinder for that, too: developer rulings/errata and GM fiat. However, neither of these (yet) applies to this discussion, so we're left with either no discussion, or all sides agreeing on a set of rules for the discussion.

To be clear, when people point out what you're saying is ridiculous, the correct response isn't to try to make arguments that are more ridiculous.


Trinam wrote:

Never, EVER take Disruptive or Spellbreaker. They're wasted as feats and even more wasted as rage powers.

Would you mind going into more detail here? I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.


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DeathSpot wrote:

I completely agree. The mount charges. The rider doesn't. Both Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge use the phrase 'charge action.' Neither feat says 'when you charge,' which is the text Pounce uses.

I thought I knew what ridiculous was, until this day.


Hyla wrote:

AND (important) it takes him at least one round to get there before he gets a full attack.

Nope. There's lots of ways to fix that. Honestly, a level 20 martial character that doesn't is intentionally choosing to play a mechanically weak character -- like the guy who rolls up a pacifist fighter or the cleric that doesn't like metal. Which, hey, it's a roleplaying game and that's fine, but let's not pretend he's not intentionally gimping himself.

Laziest two solutions: mounted skirmisher or a sorcerer cohort with spells like teleport. (The now-iconic AM BARBARIAN has a mount cohort, so it's not like we're comparing apples to oranges here.)

Hyla wrote:


No 1: why +24 for the smite - it should be +20 for a lvl 20 Paladin.

Silver smite bracelet. He did call that out specifically.


IMHO: the value of channeling depends a lot on the size of your group.

4 PCs, including you? Channeling becomes mostly a way to save spells or wand charges between combats.

9 PCs including you? Channeling starts to look really good a lot of the time, and Selective Channeling starts to look like a must.


Noir le Lotus wrote:
Th'at's right, but there's a lot of 3rd level spells that are still useful, even when you can cast 9th level spells. If Ring of Wizardry I & II are not so great, Ring of Wizardry III is a must have to every wizard/witch/sorcerer.

Eh... I don't agree with that.

You might convince me that a Ring of Wizardry III is worth a ring slot to every wizard/witch/sorcerer, but 70,000 gold? There are so many better ways to spend that much cash. To put it in perspective, that's basically what a Vorpal weapon or a Cube of Force costs. A couple extra third level spells just isn't on par with a chance to instantly slay most enemies each time you swing or the ability to keep out all things.


EWHM wrote:

Doug,

To beat trolls at 1st level, what you really need is strong missle fire capability and extreme mobility. How fast are trolls anyway? 30' by my check, with no speed enhancing abilities. If you've got any movement enhancement at all (or you're mounted), you can probably just kite them around while you whittle them down. Their reflex and will saves are pretty rotten too, and their AC isn't great. My prescription involves tons of arrows or crossbow bolts, mounts, and greek fire for finishers.

I guess that works if you encounter trolls while mounted and prepared for combat while on a featureless plain, but in something like a forest? I just don't see it happening. They can literally run you out of arrows.


Nightskies wrote:

That article reminds me why some tournaments make me mad. They have a word for people who aren't scrubs by his definition... an abuser. Here we might call them munchkins. I do not tolerate abuse of the rules as GM, as a competitive player, or observer. Game theory then becomes about the ways to abuse the game. I'm not talking about things that can be reasonably nixed. I'm talking about the lesser Akumas that require a risky counter.

The thing that I would hope people would get out of it is: generally you want to try to deal with a game as it is rather than soft-banning things you think are "too good", because:

1) They're not perfect, they do make mistakes, but generally speaking, the game designers know more about what balances the game than you do. Trying to "patch" the game on your own, you're usually at least as likely to break things worse than fix things. For example, all the people arguing in another thread a month ago that rogues would be crazy broken if you let them sneak attack more than once per round, which they disallowed in their games.

Even if you correctly identify something that's too good, it's very easy to lose sight of the bigger picture or issues around changing it. To keep with Sirlin's Street Fighter example, maybe you decide to soft-ban throws, but you've completely lost sight of the issue that throws were meant to address/fix.

2) The only way to learn how to deal with something is to play with it. If you knee-jerk ban lance pouncing, you'll never realize the dozen reasons it's actually not as good as you first thought it was. Meanwhile, other people have moved past it to figuring out what beats it to figuring out what in turn beats that.

And maybe you're a person who doesn't like the tactical side of the game at all, but then at that point, where do you draw the line? Maybe in those games the PCs win all the time and it doesn't really matter. I don't even know.


Hyla wrote:

I really don't know if its insulting or amusing that you infer from my comments that it is not clear to me that a lot of full attacks are good.

Feel free to take it however you want.

I'll say again: pick a level at which the spirited charge / full attack combo is possible. If you can't come up with ten more game-breaking characters at that level, you aren't really trying.

It may be errata'd. It may not be errata'd. That's pretty meaningless to the discussion. If you don't understand why, maybe we'll have to agree to stop talking past each other and disagree.

If there's a less arrogant-sounding way to tell you that you're completely out-in-left-field wrong, feel free to suggest it and I'll consider it in the future. I think I can gracefully argue with someone who's wrong in a "I think black is white" sense but not someone who's wrong in a "I think black is pickle" sense -- the latter case seems so orthogonal to the topic to me that I honestly don't know how to respond to it in a non-condescending way.


Hyla wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:


Basically you're arguing about the balance of a game that you don't really understand, and like a guy arguing that baseball stadiums need to be twice as big because home runs are overpowered, you seem silly to people with a stronger understanding of the game.

Yeah clearly - anyone who doesn't spend weeks to find gamebreaking, cheesy character concepts (which I admittedly do not), doesn't "reallly understand the game".

Could be the other way round, you know?

BTW: Playing 3E since 2000, having fun since 2000. But no, don't really understand the game. Like, at all.

Some people. *shakes head*

That's just it -- you don't need to "spend weeks to find gamebreaking cheesy character concepts." If it's a big stretch for you to put together, "Hmm. Melee characters do a lot of damage if they can full attack, and not so much damage at higher levels if they can't full attack. If I put together a character that can full attack a lot, that'll be way more effective than one that can't." then... yeah, mechanically, you don't really understand the game. That's 3.X/PF Martial Characters 101.

Lots of people play Monopoly without the auction rules and putting all the cash on free parking and believe that's how the game is supposed to be played. Whether or not they have fun doing so in no way speaks to how well they understand the game.

Also, while I understand that Pathfinder is generally not a competitive game, I'm still going to leave this here, because I think you can learn something from it.


Hyla wrote:

This is clearly cheesy as hell and the monsters in the Bestiary are not designed with that kind of damage potential in mind.

I am frankly astounded why so many of you (maybe a vocal minority?) fail to agree to that.

The disconnect is this: you think this is the only build that can put out ridiculous damage at those levels, so you think that one thing needs to be nerfed to put it back into line.

Whereas the people disagree with you realize that:

1) Lots of other builds can do damage that's on that order of magnitude at the same level, and,

2) If you made a list of the top ten most ridiculous characters you could make, ragelancepouncing barbarian might not even make the list.

Basically you're arguing about the balance of a game that you don't really understand, and like a guy arguing that baseball stadiums need to be twice as big because home runs are overpowered, you seem silly to people with a stronger understanding of the game.


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Krasg wrote:
General Discussion is a MinMaxers paradise and this would seem to detract form having fun and role-playing. Is this a bad or good thing? Lol

That's because it's an internet forum, and it's interesting to talk about what does and doesn't work, mechanically, whereas nobody wants to hear about your campaign and how your half-elf rogue became a god by bluffing the forces of the universe.

Mechanical RAW is one of a very few things that's pretty campaign agnostic.


Honestly, if we're going to look at something like the absurdity that is level 20 to make the case for pounce brokenness... it's just silly.

You could easily make a whole party's worth of different characters who all can potentially move and then full attack in a round. A melee character that can't do it (and also doesn't have some other trick that massively jacks their single-attack damage up to compensate) has ceased to be relevant to combat a half-dozen levels earlier.


DeathSpot wrote:
(NOYOUCAN'TGETMORETHANONEITERATIVEATTACKWITHA)POUNCE.

"Full attack" isn't exactly ambiguous.

As a neutral third party, I have to say that your grasp of the rules in general seems shaky at best. It's not really the best foundation for a theory fight.


Of course, once Instant Enemy comes out, a Ranger can apply his bonuses to nearly any enemy that's important enough.

Who knew the terrasque was so surprisingly human-like? But when it really counts, it turns out it is.


Keep in mind that Pearls of Power are useless to the spontaneous casters, too.

(Although I agree that the Ring of Wizardry is generally overpriced.)


Nope.

I'd give you the long-form arguments for it but I've been burned by too many threads where you're playing self-admitted King of the Trolls to invest the time, sorry.


Ravingdork wrote:
He could also be a stand up guy, whose planning on murdering the bastard that molested his girlfriend.

I don't know about your game, but that wouldn't be evil intent in mine. Neutral, maybe, and depending on circumstances I could make a case for good.


I don't recommend allowing summoner -- LoF skews dungeon heavy, it skews melee enemy heavy, and it skews light on enemies with DR. This means that your typical eidolon (big, high damage, high AC, terrible saves) can spend an awful lot of the AP essentially soloing half the encounters. That is to say, there are a lot of encounters that can only physically attack the eidolon, can't realistically get to any other party member if the summoner is smart, and need to roll a nat 20 to hit the eidolon while it's pouring massive damage out.

To be clear, I think summoner in general is a little (not a lot) too good -- probably it either should have less built in AC or the summoner shouldn't have mage armor and shield it can cast on the eidolon, and that would neatly fix every general problem I've seen -- but LoF's setup really highlights its strengths and avoids its weaknesses.


Frogboy wrote:


You do realize who told you that, don't you? There's a reason that the two dominant parties [if you can even still call them different anymore] are the only ones who have a chance at winning, right?

Yup. That reason is the Constitution. If you look at the way the POTUS election process is set up and think about it for a few minutes it's obvious that it's always going to be a two party race.

Note that I'm not making a case that this is a good thing, but it is what is and ever shall be for so long as the law remains as it is.


My players hit on the idea of using Nefeshti's wishes to counteract Jhavhul's wishes. That is to say, they would burn her wishes to wish that Jhavhul not be reborn in Xotani to try to keep his thousand-wish count stalled.

This seems kind of anticlimatic (it removes the time pressure) and contrary to the spirit of the adventure (high fantasy slinging wishes around) but I can't think of a good reason this wouldn't work other than "because I say so." Am I missing something?

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