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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 8,500 posts (8,585 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dave Justus wrote:

Diego,

In your interpretation, is their any difference between what you believe it says and if it said it without referencing charge at all? For example it didn't say it was a 'special charge' and if it just gave you an attack, rather than 'an attack normally allowed at the end of a charge'?

If their is no difference, do you have any explanation for why the charge term was used?

Attacks allowed at the end of a charge and available in Ultimate combat:

Pounce, bull rush.
Attacks not allowed on a charge: ranged attacks, most combat maneuvers.

It is a way to limit what attacks you can make.

If it allowed "an attack" I could fire a bow, make any combat maneuver and so on. I couldn't make a pounce attack.

Now it allow Pummeling charge as it say:

Pummeling Charge (Combat)
Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

a attack specifically allowed at the end of a charge.

On the other hand it will not activate Rhino Hide as it require a charge attack, something that you aren't making.

@LoneKnave
Avoid insulting people.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wraith, it don't say that it is a charge. it say that it is "a special charge".
What is a special charge? Undefined.

If it is a charge it work like a charge in all respects.
If it his kind of action it work as his description say ti work, and it description say: "Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge."

No mention of any other effect of a charge. No mention of any bother benefit or drawback of a charge.

It is very simple:

- if it is his kind of action it has the limitations that are born from the step you take making the action, i.e. using abundant step/dimension door to move, attacks allowed at the end of a charge.

- if it is a charge it must respect the charge rules.

You want to read more into the feat description, but it say exactly what you can don do. Wanting it to do something different don't change the feat text.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dave Justus wrote:

The attack normally allowed on a charge is indeed a charge attack and would follow all the rules and penalties enumerated under 'attacking on a charge section' in pathfinder. The character making it would gain the quasi-condition of 'charging'.

The 'Movement During a Charge' section is of the charging rules is superseded because this feat (and the spell) have specific rules for movement that override the general rules for both movement and charging movement.

Point me to the piece of the feat that say that. You either are using an ability that do exactly what the feat say you do, allowing the attack that are allowed at the end of a charge, without any other drawback and benefit or you get the full package, as it is a charge and it should follow all the limitations of a charge. You don't get to chose, "I pick this unmentioned benefit, I lose this unmentioned drawback and I pick two of those benefits as they are neat."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

[qyite=PRD]Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

The benefit row is very clear: You move up x2 your current peed and make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

I fail to see where it say: "you get all the benefits and drawback of a charge".
You guys are adding something that isn't in the text of the feat.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sling bullets too would have "only" a 30% miss chance. A small advantage of the sling over the crossbow, Not much, but together with the simple fact that it will benefit from your strength bonus to damage without the need for a special version of the sling it make it a interesting secondary weapon for people that don't know how to use bow.

Almost all my characters bring one with them for hunting purposes. It don't do anything useful in game terms but it help explain how you use survival for foraging, when needed, without depleting your arrow reserve.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
It bypasses those because it is a 'special' charge. You're using Dimension Door or Abundant Step to teleport to your intended target, and wallop them, as opposed to closing the intervening distance normally. So, yes, that thirty foot chasm between you and them means exactly nothing.

Not if it is a charge.

You want to argue that being a "special charge" mean that it is a charge when it is useful for you, but mean that it is not a charge when it is an hindrance for you?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

For feats the main things to check are the benefit and, if present, the normal rows.

What it say us:
- it is "a special charge" (and that is pretty indefinite in his meaning)
- it allows you "to teleport up to double your current speed and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge"

For it mean that you move up to twice you speed and then get all the attack allowed in a charge (pounce, pummeling charge, etc.). It don't say that you get the other benefits and drawback of a charge.

Let' see what happen if you read it the other way and treat it as a charge.

The most limiting requirement to make a charge?

PRD wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If Dimensional assault is a charge it is subject to the same limitations. So you can't use it to get behind an opponent (for flanking purposes), bypass a chasm or an elevation change or a wall and so on, bypass a enemy or ally that is in your path.

To me that seem to defeat the benefit of using this feat to attack someone. If you are limited by the same things that limit a charge I see very few advantages in using the feat instead of a regular charge. sure , you would avoid a few AoO, but it is enough?

Liberty's Edge

Rule Lawyer 6 Houseruler 4

Puzzled look.
"What is offensive in saying that I will not abandon a lover for another at the drop of a hat?"

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:

There should be ways, like stealth, to get the mobs to turn their attention away from you, and there could also be ways to get them to turn their attention toward you, like some come-at-me-bro type attacks or utilities or maneuvers, but to have them just go after the first person to shoot at them is pretty ridiculous.

"Hey, he shot Fred! Let's get him!" "What about those other guys?" "Leave them alone! Just go after the one that shot Fred!" "But they're shooting me now." "FOR FREEEEEEED!"

Players focus fire, I don't see why mobs shouldn't do it. Sure, it the can't do any damage or are running in circle after someone while shoot at, they should change targets, but they should try to focus fire.

In reality it is not done as one good hit will put a target out of a fight so it is better do target different enemies with each attack, but in a game with hit point, it is better to concentrate the attacks.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:


If it were in areas that were possible to skirt, it would probably be a great draw for hunters (of All types). ;)

Around Keeper Pass you had ogres almost to the door of the settlement. With a bit of planning it was possible to "harvest" the yellow and red ones even with a small group people equipped with T1 +2 gear.

Almost like farming starting goblins :P
Not a good thing.

One of my characters was in the 10 man group moving from Phaeros to Keeper Pass. It was interesting. We were able to keep a decent pace, but we were 10 combat ready characters.
Gathering would have been impossible.

I tried passing through with a gatherer with the travel domain, pioneer armor, agile feet and minor cure but only 2 in stealth.

As long as I was in the plains it was feasible, but when I started moving in the mountain hex with the restricted terrain it did become impossible. I died 4 times, all in the last hex. 2 times for respawning to close to NPC groups.

Interesting but frustrating.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As I read it, it is not a charge, so magical items and other things related to the charge action (included the to hit bonus/AC malus) don't work, but it allow all the attacks that can be made when using the charge action, so it allow pounce and attacks allowed by Pummeling Charge.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As I see it, Disjunction can't be dispelled. It is not an effect that overlay something on the magical item, it is an effect that remove something from a spell or a magical item.
It temporarily or permanently remove the magic from the items and spells.
Using another effect that temporarily remove the magic don't change that.

To make an example, it is like throwing a large object in a shallow pond. Some or most of the water will be pushed away and it will not reappear instantly even if you remove the object. After a time the pond will refill naturally but using another method that remove water (dispel magic) will not help it refill more speedily.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Submission
Karl Lawbringer

Abilities:

Karl Lawbringer
Human (taldan) cleric of Abadar 1
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +9
Aura deflection aura (2 ft.)
—————
Defense
—————
AC 16, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +1 shield)
hp 13 (1d8+5)
Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +7
—————
Offense
—————
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee morningstar +2 (1d8+2)
Ranged light crossbow +0 (1d8/19-20) or
sling +0 (1d4+2)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 3/day (DC 10, 1d6)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +7)
D Domain spell; Domains Protection (Defense subdomain), Travel

—————
Statistics
—————
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Scribe Scroll, Toughness
Traits - custom trait -, desperate focus, eyes and ears of the city, natural-born leader
Skills Craft (sculpture) +4, Diplomacy +4 (-1 to improve other creatures' attitudes towards you), Heal +8,
Intimidate +0 (-5 to improve other creatures' attitudes towards you), Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception
+9, Spellcraft +6
Languages Common, Hallit, Orc
SQ agile feet (7/day), condescending
Combat Gear acid, alchemist's fire, healer's kit, oil (5); Other Gear scale mail, light wooden shield,
crossbow bolts (20), light crossbow, morningstar, sling, sling bullets (20), backpack, basic maps (major
landmarks only), bedroll, belt pouch, brush, shaving (0.1 lb), buttons (0.1 lb), candle (10), chewing stick,
comb (0.2 lb), conditioning oil for leather (0.4 lb), cup, shaving (0.2 lb), file, small (0.1 lb), flint and steel,
flint and steel, hairbrush (0.3 lb), hemp rope (50 ft.), holy text, knife, utility (0.5 lb), leather paring knife
(0.5 lb), leather straps (0.4 lb), mess kit, mess kit, metal polish (0.3 lb), mirror, nail file (0.1 lb), pot,
scissors (0.3 lb), sewing needle, shaving powder (one shave) (0.01 lb) (50), soap, soap, soft cloth (0.1 lb)
(2), spell component pouch, sponge, straight razor (0.2 lb), surgeon's tools, tindertwig, tooth powder (0.1
lb), torch (10), torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, waterskin (2), whetstone, wooden holy symbol of
Adabar, 11 gp
—————
Special Abilities
—————
Agile Feet (7/day) (Su) For 1 rd, you ignore difficult terrain.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (3/day, DC 10) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the
undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Defense)
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of
travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Condescending -5 to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to improve others' attitudes toward you.

Deflection Aura (1 rounds, 1/day) (Su) 20'r aura grants +2 AC and +2 CMD

Natural-Born Leader: Your cohorts, followers, and summoned creatures gain +1 vs. Mind-affecting effects, +1 Leadership score if you have the Leadership feat.

Sorry, the abilities aren't in the format you used, but I wanted to put this submission in the forum now. The important thing is the background, let's me know if it is acceptable.

Background:

Native of Korvosa, Karl was born and raised in the church of Abadar. His mother and father were faithful followers and lay priests of the church and followers of the Prophecy of Kallistrade.
They always treated Karl fairly but they had little emotional investment in the child, their 3rd son.
Karl studied with the church and learned to be a cleric.
While a cleric of Adabar he is not a follower of the prophecy.

He was disgusted with the chaos in the city during and following the events of Curse of the Crimson Throne and the weakness show by the church of Adabar there (it is only a background thing unless the GM want to make it relevant in the adventure).
He decided to leave the city and go in a location where he could help the spread of civilization as currently he can't influence his native city politics.

Trunau seem the location where he can gain influence and power fast, getting a chance of shaping the community.

This seemingly positive attitude has some problem:
- Karl is humanocentric, he think that humans are the best race in the universe, and that those of Taldane blood are the best humans. He will not persecute or mistreat elves, half-elves, dwarfs, halflings or gnomes but he feel that they are inferior.
Half orcs are a dangerous abominations, thankfully one that will correct itself, as either the orc blood will thin with subsequent generations and disappear or tick and make the descendant of the half orc true orcs, only worth to be killed.
He has no problems with abortion or infanticide in the event of a orc raping an human (and he will always assume rape).
- he is convinced that the rapid breeding rate of races like orcs and goblins is a real and immediate danger. Only the savage ways of those races and the lack of knowledge in the arts of healing keep their numbers in check.
A single misguided cleric of Sheyling teaching a tribe orc how to prevent disease and how to increase the survival rate of babies and mothers could change that, creating unstoppable hordes of orcs, capable to overwhelm any defense. So those races should be exterminated.
No mercy should be show to womens and children as they will only grow to generate new enemies.

His opinion and project on how to do that is relatively simple.
He count to start in a small city willing to do what should be done, i.e. Trunau.
He would gather power and resources, until he will be capable to create expendable troops: undeads. Ogre skeletons seem the optimal choice. Those skeletons will become the first line of defense against the orc hordes, fearless and remorseless.
If and when the number of undead become too large, approaching the maximum number that can be controlled, managing them will be simple: send some of them away in the direction of the nearest orc village, with the order to slay any orc they encounter. Wait a couple of days and then release them from control. Is still operative they will be in enemy lands and will continue to kill enemies until they are destroyed.

After further rising in level this tactic will be refined, making bone constructs instead of undead. If properly made they will be way more reliable than undedad even if a bit more costly.

A perfect LE scheme.
Karl currently has really meet very few orcs and half orcs and hasn't done any of the above he is LN. His future actions will show if he will fall or redeem.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tacticslion wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Prepared casters can easily have any spell whenever? Wizards can easily cast any cleric spell and vice versa? (Spell research, with GM permission, isn't quite the same thing.)

By the time an oracle can? Yes - anything they'd want for an adventure or downtime.

Not by having them prepared and cast, mind - the access is different for the different casters - but for most purposes, there isn't much they could want that they didn't already have access to.

The flexibility is that they either have access to the entire spell-list already plus some that weren't on it (clerics) or could learn every spell and make scrolls for any time (wizards) and they had plenty of tricks (mostly summons, but not exclusively) to access other spells from other lists.

This is in addition to the research spells (by GM permission).

But as for this FAQ? If it was for the purpose of curbing power, it doesn't do that much to do so (simply limits which classes and choices you make to attain it) and it does so in a way that's counter-intuitive and boring.

And if it wasn't to curb power creep? It still makes the game more boring (more mechanics, less purpose) and it serves no real purpose other than to say "No, you can't do that." which, in the end, is needless. It's time and energy wasted that does nothing but shut down doors that required a lot of time and energy to open and were good for a few specific builds for no purpose.

thejeff wrote:
I don't have any problem with them wanting to make it clear that it was never intended to work like that.

I don't have a problem with it either. It just doesn't do anything like they wanted it to either way you cut it (or if it does, it's boring, confusing, and annoying).

EDIT: Also, I have an emotional response in addition to the logical one above.

This FAQ in particular feels (intentionally or not) like Devs saying, "This is our thing for us; you can't touch or play with these kinds of...

I see we have a very different opinion of the game. For me every one of the options you have listed as wonderful and sorely mis was something clearly stretched beyond the intended limits and extremely annoying.

For me removing them didn't make the game boring, it made it better.

If we give emotion replies we should realize that not all people share our opinion and that some people will feel very differently from us.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

randomwalker wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:

The number of items gathered is weighted by the current stock of those items.

Source, please, as that is the main argument against my hypothesis, but I haven0t seen any post by a developer saying that.

Absolutely right, Diego, this is the crucial point!

At the bottom of the post i quoted above, Lee hides this little nugget:

Quote:
So if you were to go up to a Forester hex you would have a 650/3900 chance of getting yew, a 1200/3900 chance of getting pine, etc. These numbers change as the ratings change. Every 15 minutes there is a chance equal to (current value/original value) that the resource will increase an amount equal to 1% of it's full value. So if Pine was harvested down to 960, there would be an 80% chance of restoring 12 points on the next 15 minute check.
It's not very explicit, but that's what I base my statements on.

Ok, it seem the Developers have thought about that problem, then and dealt with it.

As it is one of those things that is easy to overlook while programming I thought it was worth checking.

Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quintain wrote:
Quote:


DC 10 "A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship's rigging"

And as you know, no one has ever fallen out of ships rigging...

That's the problem. Take 10 eliminates risk.

On the other hand sailors weren't dying every fourth climb up the rigging. Falls generally were born out of drunkenness, bad weather, tiredness or other external cause.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
And long streaks of unlikely outcomes are astronomically unlikely to the point that I would suspect the RNG long before I believed that something as improbable as majorly unequal depletion happened with stocks starting around 500 of the rarest.

I shouldn't have used the word "streak" as sequence of lucky rolls is not needed. You only need to have the "lucky" rolls to outnumber the "unlucky" rolls for a period long enough to change the ratio between the two items, then the different regrowth rate will do the rest.

You don't need to get 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
1,8,6,2,9,1,7,10, 1, 10 will do. The total is 55 on 10 rolls for an average of 5.5, exactly the norm. But we have got three 1, three times the normal result. If the change of getting the rare resource is 1:10 we have already started to build up an imbalance.
We are all gamers and we know that that is a common event.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

The number of items gathered is weighted by the current stock of those items.

Source, please, as that is the main argument against my hypothesis, but I haven0t seen any post by a developer saying that.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:


Yes - if you have an extreme lucky strike like winning the lottery and only get rare resources a few times then it can become a problem. But getting 7 coal and zero iron in a row is as likely as winning the lottery - and this would only apply when you are low on resources anyhow.

but someone win the lottery. So far my best result has been 4 units of a single rare material.

Thod wrote:


My advice - stop gathering once you spot any non-true coal.

Good advice, but some people will not follow it. And sometime the gatherer simply will not notice that he is gathering inferior material.

Thod wrote:


Hexes do recover from 40% to full in a day - they take 2 days from 16%. You don't want to go below that - but you would do a lot of inferior gathering before that happens.

Most hexes sustain easily 3000 gathered resources a day. This is massive with the current server population.

"Current" is the key word. How long the current system will be in use against how fast the current population will increase?

Hopefully the population will increase at a good rate, so the second current will last a relatively short time. no idea for the first current

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Randomness don't even out if the earlier result influence subsequent results and there is a maximum to the positive results that you can get.

The big question that Lee posts don't answer is if the change of finding a rare resource is modified by the current units available in the hex or not.
We already know, from one of his posts, that the quantity of a rare resource that will gather isn't modified by the quantity available. it is only capped by that number.

To explain my problem better, as I am not native English speaker and it is a complicated concept, an example (I am using 100 and 10 as the starting numbers of units as they make the problem more evident, but with 1000 and 100 you would get the same result, it simply need a longer streak of lucky rolls, but that will happen sooner or later):

Starting condition of the hex 100 units of A, 10 units of B.
When I gather from a node several dices are rolled.
Fist: quantity (we know that there is a variable there as we get from 2 to 8 items)
Second: chance to find 1 or more rare items (again a variable, as we get from 0 to 2 rare items of the same kind and something several different rare items [I have got up to 4 different kinds of items from a node]).
Third: the leftover units of gathered items are covered by common items.

If it work that way, a possible scenario is:
1) roll how many items there are, let's say 2.
2) roll a 9% chance of a rare item twice (9% because a 1:10 ratio is the same as having a 9.0909% of a rare item).
If you roll 9% or less you get 1 rare items, if you roll 9% or less a second time you get 2 rare items.
3) you gather what was rolled.

Now let's change the starting conditions to a semi depleted hex with 60 units of A and 6 of B.
1) roll for number of items, again it is a 2.
2) roll for rarity, a 9 and an 92. 1 A and 1 B.
3) gather your stuff.
Now the situation is 59 A, 5 B, almost exactly a 1:12 ratio or we can say that the item B is 7.8% of the total items available in the hex.

As we are still finding the best version of the items we continue gathering.
1) always 2
2) here is where I see the problem. when we roll for rarity, against what number we roll? If it is 7.8% there is no problem, the resources will drop at the same ratio.
If it is against 9% the resources will start dropping at different rations against the actual distribution, with the rare resources suffering a higher rate of depletion.
A few lucky rolls against that 9% and resource B will disappear while resource A will still be available.

Let's say that an unfriendly group has decided to destroy your economy and razed a hex, gathering all the material in it.
The hex has 0 of A and 0 of B.
After some time we have got back some of the material. We get our materials back as a % of the initial numbers, so we get have got back 2 unit of material B and 20 units of material A.

Enter Uniformed Mike and gather from the hex.
He roll his lucky 9% and gather 1 of A and one of B. All low quality.
"Damn, I should leave this hex alone."
But now the available material is 19 A and 1 B and the chance of regrowth is 19% vs 10%.

Some more time pass and we get more material back. As the chance of getting new material is based on the % of the original material present in the hex a item with a 19% of his original value will grow back as a higher rate than a item with 10% of his original value.

So now we have 39 units of A (2 successful rolls out of 10) and 2 units of B.
Simpleton Bob enter the hex and start gathering. "Damn, low quality ore. I wil gather it the same, I only need to move it 1 hex, the city is near and I need only a few units."
Our friend go and gather 11 units of material, 10 A and 1 B, then he go his happy way.
Now we have 29 units of A and 1 unit of B or a regrowth rate of 29% against 10%.
So A now is regrowing back at a rate 3 times higher than B. If A and B are depleted at the same rate but regrow back at different rates B will never really recover.

I hope that I was clear.

Tl;Dr
If
the chance of gathering rare materials in a hex is constant there is a concrete risk of getting common and rare items out of sync, at the disadvantage of the rare material.
If it is a variable based on the current availability of the rare material there isn't that risk.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Maybe it has been discussed in the other forum, but, if I get exactly how the resources are replenished I think that rare resources in a hex will never have a chance to recover after they are depleted.

I remember a note in one of the Goblinwork blogs (but I can't find it) say something like "automatic replenishment of the resources at DT will be removed in one of the future iteration of the game". Actually I am not even sure if there is now a automatic replenishment of the resources at DT.

Let's hypothesize a hex with 1000 iron and 100 coal.
It is harvested to the point at which both resources are partially depleted, to 500 and 50.
The chance to recover is the same 50% for each resource and both resource recover the same % of the original value, so it seem that both resources will maintain the same ratio 10:1.

Enter my gatherer. I get from 2 to 8 of 1 or 2 resource in one go (miner 6). I suppose the chance to get coal instead of iron are 1 to 10.
Again it seem that the ratio is maintained.

But what happen in reality?

I get 2 units of iron, the chance of iron re-spawning is now 49.8%.
I get 1 iron and 1 coal. The chance of the iron re-spawning is now 49.9% and that of the coal is now 49%.
I get 2 units of coal, the chance of coal re-spawning is now 48%.

A few lucky rolls (and sooner or alter they will happen) and the two resources will go out of sync, with the coal quantity becoming less and less as its chance of recovering decrease way faster than the chance of the iron recovering.
As people will come to the hex to harvest all mineral resources, people hunting for iron will keep the coal in the depleted state, with little or no chance to rise above the minimum value.

Maybe someone with better mathematical skills than me can put that in mathematical terms.

It is possible that the assumption that you get materials from a node based on the starting ratio for the hex and not with the current values is wrong but it seem simpler to have it work that way.

Liberty's Edge

Rule Lawyer 6 Houseruler 4

If no one has noted that, Julius is fond of creating complex scenarios that rarely find a confirmation in reality. ;-)

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

I was attacked by bandits while entering Hammerfall. The Thornguards didn't responded at all even if I was adjacent to them. It is an intended behavior?

I don't know whether it's intended or not, but Thornguards only protect PCs from NPCs in NPC Settlements.

Before the patch I had a very fun incident with some claw mercenary: I triggered a large group that was near a player settlement. When they charged me I retreated and accidentally brought them in the aggro range of the Thornguards.

The Thornguards started to fight them.
Then the claw mercenaries returned to the camp with the Thornguards pursuing them.
When the mercenaries reached the camp the Thronguards started to return to their post, but at that point the mercenary aggro did reset and they started to case the Thronguards.
As soon as the Thronguards reached their starting position their aggro reset and they attacked the mercenary.
Rinse and repeat.
I was on a side watching this back and forth while killing mercenaries with my bow when they weren't invulnerable.

As one of the mercenaries got struck in mid leap I was unable to complete the escalation location. I returned there after an hour and was able to repeat the effect again, this time intentionally.

I can't be 100% sure that some of the mercenary hadn't switched from me to the Thronguards as targets, but from what I did see, the Thronguards decided to attack the claw mercenaries by themselves, not because they were attacked.

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"If deployed near a Settlement, the Smallhold’s vault access is the same as the bank in that Settlement, so you can get to your vault when you go to your Smallhold."

This mean that what is in the bank is in the Smallhold vault and vice versa?
I don't see any advantage in having a separate vault if it is the same as the bank vault.
I was interested in placing a smallhold in a settlement as a way to get a separate storage space for those items that I want to keep and that will only clutter my bank deposit (like the researched prophecies, recipes I can't jet use and so on).

Sharing the Base Camps storage with your party mean that:
- as soon as I log off it will not be available
- I can't use it to trade items with other characters in the same account.

that seem fairly big limitations.

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I was attacked by bandits while entering Hammerfall. The Thornguards didn't responded at all even if I was adjacent to them. It is an intended behavior?

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Lune wrote:

@Seth & Grey_Mage: But that isn't all that Aid Allies says. It says, "...the ally receives a +3 bonus". It is an unnamed bonus that comes from a different source. One source being Aid Another, the other source being Aid Allies.

That is the way I see it anyway. I can see both perspectives and originally thought the way you did. But after more carefully reading it and comparing it to other abilities it looks distinctly and purposefully different in that it lacks the "instead of" wording.

If I understand it correctly you do not believe that distinction makes a difference while I believe it is intentional and deliberate. I think it was put there to show that unlike everything else that it is not "instead of". I can see your point of view. Unfortunately it isn't official. I would ask that you hit FAQ so that we can all get an answer. Thank you both for sharing. :)

If we follow your line of reasoning, he is using the Aid allies action, so he can't get the Aid another bonus as he isn't using that action.

You are either using the Aid another action and substituting the bonus as the source is the Aid another action or you are using a different action that is the source of a different bonus and so don't benefit from the Aid another action as you aren't using it.

You can't argue that it is a different action from Aid another and so a different source but that it is the same action as Aid another and so it should grant the aid another bonus.

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<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

First things first: They should not bring in ammunition until they have fixed other things:

As a rogue, if they are going to make me manage the use of my primary weapon, they need to have fixed the other rogue features so they work properly first, so I do the damage I am supposed to do.

If I am going to have to carry 200 arrows, they need to sort out gear that can improve encumbrance (quivers, packs)

Are you aware that currently we have x2 base carrying capacity because the containers aren't in game.

I don't think we will become capable to carry more when the containers become available, unless there are T2 or T3 containers.

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The resources in the nodes have been changed in the last patch and apparently they will be changed again, so, beside the common items, nothing is sure about what node drop what.
In my area the mineral nodes stopped giving gems with the last patch. The only place where I find gems is from trash nodes in a cultivated area.

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Byakko wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Byakko wrote:

1. Normally I'd let someone do a free action during their move, but the rules on touch spells specifically call out when you can use this technique, as bolded in your first post. Short answer: no.

However, I don't feel it's clear cut, especially when you start talking about touch spells with multiple targets such as communal protection spells. These spells almost require you to make multiple touches during movement in order to function.
PRD wrote:

Full-Round Action

Use a touch spell on up to six friends

It is a full round action, so you get only a 5' step. You can touch people in the before and after making it, but you don't get a full move. So there is nothing murky here.

That bit about touching six friends as a full round action is under the heading "Holding the Charge" which is when "you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell". Thus, it remains murky for when you're trying to apply it in the round it's cast.

Anyway, that's an entirely different can of worms. Let me refer you to this other thread if you're interested:
Multiple Target Touch spells impossible to use?

It is the Actions in Combat Table under full round actions.

Then in the magic section:

PRD wrote:


Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

The table make it very clear: a full round action. You don't get to take a full move when casting and touching multiple guys.

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zza ni wrote:

im pretty sure i have seen in one of the Q&A about touch spells that some1 can cast , move through his friends area up to an enemy,touch him and move back to his starting place even if the area he touchs the enemy is used by a freind. if he has enough move.(was a 30 efat move caster who cast the touch spell,move 15 feat. into a place held by his friend and touch an enemy.then move back to his original space.)

this ws to show that you can move and act through a friends place as long as yo uiddn't end turn there. but the touch attack was put there as well. and that one was at a nenemy even. not a friend.

if pressed i think i can also find the link. was in one of the Q&A from a specific book which i can't recall.( u know like hte core book Q&A or the class one)

You can do that with Fly by attack, as it explicitly allow you to act and take a standard action mid flight.

Or with a held spell and spring attack.
Not with regular moves.

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deusvult wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
deusvult wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal,

Once you break it, you have to fake it.

(wax seals are often accompanied by ribbons or such; you don't just lift the wax off the paper)

I have several examples at hand in the archive of the library where I work, and I am fairly sure that even those with the ribbons can be opened without breaking the seal.

There are ways to make that more difficult, but an expert can open and reseal them without leaving a trace and without the need to remake the seal.
And the thread has been about which PF skill covers the knowledge said expert is using. I've been saying Linguistics. Not only to convincingly repair it should you break it, but to open it w/o breaking it in the first place (if even feasible).

The relevant rules have been cited several tiems:

PRD - Linguisti wrote:

Create or Detect Forgeries: Forgery requires writing materials appropriate to the document being forged. To forge a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person, you need only to have seen a similar document before, and you gain a +8 bonus on your check. To forge a signature, you need an autograph of that person to copy, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. To forge a longer document written in the hand of some particular person, a large sample of that person's handwriting is needed.

The Linguistics check is made secretly, so that you're not sure how good your forgery is. As with Disguise, you don't make a check until someone examines the work. Your Linguistics check is opposed by the Linguistics check of the person who examines the document to verify its authenticity. The examiner gains modifiers if any of the conditions are listed on the table above.

There is nothing in them about opening or resealing wax seals.

Opening or resealing a wax seal isn't a forgery.
So I don't see what basis you have for your position.

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Bandw2 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
IQuarent wrote:

I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.

I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":

Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.

These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.

While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.

If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).

There is only a problem:

The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.
he could just melt the wax with a new seal...

Craft jewelery to make a new signet ring from scratch.

Linguistic to find the right kind of wax (the King use purple wax, not the common red one ...)
Disable device to place the new seal so that it cover the sign left by the old one.

Making a new seal isn't easy at all.

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deusvult wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal,

Once you break it, you have to fake it.

(wax seals are often accompanied by ribbons or such; you don't just lift the wax off the paper)

I have several examples at hand in the archive of the library where I work, and I am fairly sure that even those with the ribbons can be opened without breaking the seal.

There are ways to make that more difficult, but an expert can open and reseal them without leaving a trace and without the need to remake the seal.

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IQuarent wrote:

I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.

I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":

Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.

These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.

While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.

If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).

There is only a problem:

The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.

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StabbittyDoom wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
I think the issue with using Linguistics in this case is that you AREN'T forging anything! You're not making a seal, you're just bypassing it without being noticed. You don't even care what the seal looks like except that it looks untouched.
And what skill would be most appropriate for ensuring the seal looks untouched? That's kind of the OP's entire question.
Sorry that I didn't repeat it in that post: Disable Device. It's all about bypassing security measures without being noticed.

But Disable Device specifically mentions "You are skilled at disarming traps and opening locks. In addition, this skill lets you sabotage simple mechanical devices, such as catapults, wagon wheels, and doors."

Notice, there is nothing there about "security measures," with or without notice.

Are traps and locks not security measures now? Also, I would argue that the primary usage of the "bypass" option for traps is to not to be noticed after-the-fact.

Though I will admit that I thought there was a bit about leaving behind marks if you fail an Open Lock check...

And a wax seal is a form of lock.

Historically it was done with a heated stiletto and a steady hand, from what I know, so disable device seem a good solution.

Or a scroll of mending and UMD.

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Byakko wrote:

1. Normally I'd let someone do a free action during their move, but the rules on touch spells specifically call out when you can use this technique, as bolded in your first post. Short answer: no.

However, I don't feel it's clear cut, especially when you start talking about touch spells with multiple targets such as communal protection spells. These spells almost require you to make multiple touches during movement in order to function.
PRD wrote:

Full-Round Action

Use a touch spell on up to six friends

It is a full round action, so you get only a 5' step. You can touch people in the before and after making it, but you don't get a full move. So there is nothing murky here.

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Jiggy wrote:
The Fox wrote:

3. If I hold the charge on a touch spell, can an ally touch me to gain the benefit of that spell as a free action on their turn?

Can I cast cure light wounds and move 30 ft. toward the barbarian who is 50 ft. away, then allow them to move 20 ft. toward me and touch me to gain the benefit of the spell on their turn?

There's nothing in the rules to suggest that the "freebie" touch works for anyone but the caster (in fact, after that first turn, it's not even a free action for the caster anymore). So the ally definitely can't call it a free action.

However, since the rules explicitly say that even an accidental touch can discharge the spell, and there's nothing physically stopping someone from coming over and grabbing your outstretched hand, it's definitely possible. It's just a matter of what action it would take.

And since if you were holding out an item in your hand, I could grab it as a move action, then I'd have a hard time believing any other action type for doing the exact same thing for a touch spell charge.

Actually, the rules are very clear and I have bolded the relevant part:

PRD wrote:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

You, the caster, need to touch the thing or person, not the other way around. The spell don't discharge if you are hit by an arrow or sword, nor if you are grappled, or any other kind of contact initiated by another creature.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

One think we need is containers to sort our stuff.

I am a collector and have a large number of researched pages that I don't want to use or trade away. But they clutter my bank and make finding green items harder. A container for them would be a good thing.

People playing alchemist and apothecaries will need them even more to separate the different kind of items they produce and they would be a great help for bank characters.
A "for Gunther" container would make their life way easier than having to check the request rooster in the forum.

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Diego Rossi wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:


Though considering how an awful lot of people seem to have put DTs in the enemy camp I am still concerned it is opening up a big can of worms compared to company vaults.

Source for that statement?

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

GW is SELLING Camps and Small Holdings.

Why would they neuter those sales by offering the same effect for free?

Because they've said they won't let anyojne get anything with cash that they can't functionally match with in-game resources. Off the top, Camps and small-holdings don't have to be bought, they can also be built.

What Caldeathe Baequiannia said, plus the brought items will survive forever. If they are destroyed you get them back after waiting for a few days. The crafted version would have to be remade.

And I think (not sure about that) that until you deploy them they are a token with 0 weight, while crafted camps have a weight (or at least the basic camp had a weight during the alpha testing).

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Neadenil Edam wrote:


Though considering how an awful lot of people seem to have put DTs in the enemy camp I am still concerned it is opening up a big can of worms compared to company vaults.

Source for that statement?

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The way the Stingchucks damage his target is a bit weird, but the alchemist bonus should apply.

Raging brutality: first, you need to have a way to apply power attack to throw weapons. That can't be done normally at is say: "You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack".
Then there is this other piece of power attack: "The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks" and splash weapons make ranged touch attacks.
I don't see how it could work.

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Azure_Zero wrote:
Ravenlute wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Base Camps, Campfires and Small Holdings will impact Power regen. But they aren't being deployed for EE3. You are seeing the tip pf a very big iceberg.
When you say Campfires are you talking about Engineer crafted camps?
Given the words, I'd assume the premium ones, and maybe the crafted ones.

From what I have read, the basic camp crafted by the players will allow to rest in it to regain power. You will be capable to deploy it even into the wild.

More advanced structures will give limited storage capability.

Edit:
campfires seem to be something different. Maybe locations you can find in some hex?

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Lisa Stevens wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

b) taverns appear in settlements other than Thornkeep, and your character is inside one

My understanding is that all player settlements will have a tavern added as of EE3.

Lisa

We wouldn't have to build them? I am unsure if I am happy for the added function or sad for a lost crafting opportunity.

After the end of the war of the towers they will be removed and become a players crafted item?

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KarlBob wrote:
Yrme wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
Training in all four combat roles, a crafting skill, a refining skill, and three gathering skills, on the other hand, is a bad plan. (Yes, you'll lose your hat.)
+1 for Girl Genius reference.

Thanks. I figured someone here would recognize it.

For those who didn't, the relevant dialogue from Girl Genius (Note - Misspellings indicate outrageous fake German/Eastern European accent):

"Dis is turnink into vun of dose plans... Hyu know, de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people?"

"It is?"

"Uh huh. And how do dose alvays end?"

"De dirigible is in flames, everyboddyz dead an' I've lost my hat."

"Dot's right. Und any plan vere you lose you hat iz?"

"A bad plan?"

"Right again!"

Jäger are Jäger.

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DominusMegadeus wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day.

I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.

Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group.

Because it is the first reason for all the "spellcaster are overpowered" threads.

Their power is limited if the can't go nova and the regain all the power without any in game hindrance.

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Jeff Merola wrote:


In fact, I'm probably going to reintroduce the Cure Minor Wounds spell in the next game I run.

Have pity of the poor caster sore throat. ;-)

Make it a cantrip that give fast healing 1 that last as long as you concentrate and touch the target creature.

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James Risner wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
This guys DM is already confirmed to be okay with this as long as the rules say it's okay. The rules say "Whatever the DM says goes".

The GM is free to allow the item, but you will never see any item like this printed. The boots of Fast Healing 1 is the closest to this item you will ever see made by Paizo.

WotC made a Belt of Healing in the MIC that was 750 gp and had 4d8 once a day or 6d8 if you used 3 standard actions. So a max of 6d8 healing a day for 750 gp.

Out of combat healing that isn't a wand is strongly discouraged. It breaks all kinds of parts of the game. It allows parties to not need a Cleric/Druid/Bard to use the Wands. An At Will item of healing isn't something I would ever allow in any game I ever played or GM.

Or wizard/sorcerer et c. with infernal healing if we go beyond the CRB.

Or a witch.

"Playing a healbot" don't exist in Pathfinder unless someone want to play it.

Healing is part of the resource management, and that is part of playing the game. Remove the need to use resources to heal and you change some of the basis of the game.

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Baron Ulfhamr wrote:
So accordind to the item creations rules, it seems that my over 3 necromancer can craft a wonderous item that casts Cure Light Wounds all day for 2000gp (spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 2000). The party bard is assisting the crafting by casting the spell. This feels cheap somehow, but is it legal? The gm will allow it if rules support it.

1) Generally items that cast instantaneous spells have a number of daily uses, not a unlimited number of uses.

2) unless it use a body slots there is a x2 multiplier

3 and most important) Always compare what you are crafting to an existing item before using the table.

4) It should be a command word item, not a use activated, so the base is 1,800, not 2,000.

- * -

Existing cure X item:

Strand of Prayer Beads
Bead of healing Wearer can cast his choice of cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, or remove disease.
Each special bead can be used once per day,
bead of healing –9,000 gp
CL: 5th (healing),

Reverse engineering of the price:
1 day use converted to 5 daily uses = x5 = 45,000
no body slot used converted to slot use = /2 = 22,500
3rd level spell, CL 5 =3*5 = 15 (you can cast only 1 of the 3 possible spells in a day)
22.500/15 = 1,500

It seem they are giving it the discount for "several similar abilities".
So, to remove the discount: 1,500/75*100=2,000

Personally I will not give the "several similar abilities" to a item like the Prayers beads, but I would consider it a command word item. The difference is relatively small.

So your item pricing:
5 daily use CLW item with a CL of 1
2,000 *1 * 1* 2 (no body slot) = 4,000 (2,000 to make it)

(later Edit: I hadn't read all the thread when I did make the post, your item use a body slot, hands, so it don't get the multipler. On the other hand, hands items use both hands, even if they are 1 single glove)

Depending on the campaign, it can be worth it, or not.
A CLW wand price is only 750 gp, crafting it is only 375 gp and it has 50 charges.
But it require a UMD check to use it if you don't have CLW in your class spell list.

The item cost a bit less than 5 CLW wands, so your campaign will last long enough that you will use it more than 250 times?
The added benefits for your necromancer to be able to use CLW without a UMD check is worth it?

I had already examined the possibility to make a similar item for my magus, probably it is not worth it money wise, but even with maximized UMD it is not guaranteed that I can make the UMD check.

A way to reduce the cost is to make it a wearable item (like a bracelet or some such, depending on what is your class).
A price of 2,000 gp and a production cost of 1,000 make it more interesting.

As I said above, I will make it a command word items, so 1,800/900 is mi final price.

- * -

Edit:

The usual citation:

PRD Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Pricing New Items

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.

- * -

Boots of the earth:
I think they are a badly thought item.
Fast healing 1 when standing still for 5,000 gp is too good.
Especially as there is no requirement to touch earth/rock at all.
You are on the 3 level of a tower, on a wooden floor? They work.
So that "of the earth" si a misnomer.

The only question is if that "move action to plant your feet" should be repeated every round. But that is irrelevant for out of combat healing and would be a big hindrance for in combat use. Trying that to reduce their benefits would only make them even more of a "out of combat" healing item.

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FAQ wrote:

Temporarily gaining abilities: If I temporarily gain an ability that is limited in its uses per day, am I limited in my overall uses of that ability if I can temporarily gain it more than once?

Yes. You are limited by the ability in the same way as a character that has that ability permanently. For example, if you have an ability that allows you to gain the Stunning Fist feat for a limited period of time and you use it 3 times. Those uses count against your total number of uses should you temporarily gain Stunning Fist again later that day. This limit also applies to abilities that grant additional uses of another ability (such as Extra Channel). Once used, they are consumed for the day, even if you gain the ability again.

I think that this FAQ show that daily use of a ability are limited to that number of uses in a day and you can't gain them multiple times in a day.

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You can give me the name of another resource that share the coal advantages?

Restricted area where you can harvest it;
needed in great quantity;
hard to transport.

So, why whoever control the NW corner of the map should have a virtual monopoly of a vital resource while no other piece of the map can get it as there is no resource with the same advantages?

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