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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 7,609 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Its up to the GM to decide how far away you can hear said Yeth Hound through a closed door.

Only in 1e/2e. By RAW, in 3e we had the Listen skill instead, and in PF we have a skill called Perception, which includes DCs for hearing stuff, with modifiers for distance, intervening doors, etc.

Just as, when a character climbs a rope, it's not up to the GM to decide if he/she falls. It's decided by rolling a d20, adding the Climb skill modifier, and comparing to the listed DC.

Technically true but I don't know of a GM who is going to have a player roll a Perception check every 10' with increasing +1 DC until they succeed. Instead the DM is going to decide how far the PC may reasonably not be able hear the source and call for the check at that point.

Agreed, it would be madness to penalize the characters with the better perception.

To me making a successful perception check is more than simply hearing something. It implies having an idea of what you are hearing or seeing.
That noise in distance can be the Hound of Baskerville, a Hound of Tindalos or a normal hound. With a successful perception check you are capable to dismiss the normal sounds that aren't relevant.
Same thing for seeing something. That dot in distance is a elk, a centaur or a lamia? You need to concentrate on it or it is meaningless?

I agree with OldSkool, if you see or hear the creature you fear the panic resume. It don't matter if the panic was originated by a visula, sonic or spell effect.
After all if we are made fearful by a spell we don't see the spell being cast again the next round. The origin of the fear is the creature, not the effect that originated the fear.

@ AJAG
I am happy to see that we have cleared the misunderstanding.

questions wrote:


I don't know the Emoticon for smily face on this website but if I did I would insert it here.

We use :-) or :)

AFAIK there are no emoticon in this forum.

On the other hand I don't think that being a jerk to a jerk will "cure" him. Probably it will make him even more of a jerk.
:(

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It provoke, but the medium creature with the reach weapon can't attack unless he has some alternate weapon.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree with Calth for the inquisitor. I am less convinced for the druid.
I am not sure if choosing a domain as your nature bond count as having the domain feature.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

I'm a little bit confused now - does the item have a stat block? If so, could anyone quote the full rules text? :)

EDIT to the edit: Ahh, that makes sense. Does either the gown or the bodice of resistance get a stat block? I'm more of an AP guy so I haven't read many modules - not sure how they are typically written.

No stat block. They read "(as cloak, but shirt slot)" for Bodice and "(functions as a cloak of resistance +4 that takes the body item slot)" for the Gown. I take that as meaning they follow the normal rules for the item with the exception of slot used.

EDIT: Oh, I see. Herolab has an entry for it. That makes sense then. Archives of nethys didn't have anything on it either so I has to pull out the books.

I hate to give incorrect informations, so I searched for the module.

Again, graystone is right.
The entry is:

gown of resistance +4 (function as a cloak of resistance +4 that takes the body item slot)

I should have checked the source, not a second hand reference.

BTW, from which book come the bodice?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:

The adventure actually lists a gown of resistance +4, not a Bodice of resistance +3. pg21 tomb of the Iron Medusa

Not sure where the Bodice of resistance came from.

[Blush]

You are right, I was going from memory and, as the adventure is locked away, I checked Hero lab to find it faster. I did find the bodice and I assumed it was that the item and I was misremembering it being a gown. Curiously it don't cite the sourcebook. Unusual from Hero lab.

The gown entry (again, from hero Lab, the module was published just before I started the subscription):

Gown of Resistance, +4
These garments offer magic protection in the form of a +1 to +5 resistance bonus on all saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will).
Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's
caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Price
16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Appears In : Tomb of the Iron Medusa

Nothing really change, beside the aspect of the item.

Both items are missing from the D20SRD. The bodice (I think) is from one of the companion books, I recall seeing it but I have no idea where, the gown from Tomb of the Iron Medusa, a module.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DJ_Dust wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Shadow

Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 15

Can it even carry anything?

First, let's clear the air about incorporeal creatures: No incorporeal *monster* has a strength score. It's simply in their rules.(Universal Monster Rules) This is because they do not possess PHYSICAL prowess on the normal world.(you would not BELIEVE how many times I've had to go over that with people T-T)

Then, as per the definition of ghost touch, "The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time." ( http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#_weapons-ghost-t ouch) Therefore, it can WIELD the weapon (by extrapolating from the Construct Monster Creature Type and the fact that they use a Con score of 10 for any stat that makes it necessary) at an equivalent Strength score of 10.

However, CARRYING (on it's person without being wielded) is something I don't know and whether or not the shadow (or other incorporeal creature for that matter) can carry it on its person WITHOUT wielding the ghost touch weapon is another question entirely. This is a question that I have already pondered and I will ask as soon as I resolve this matter. Currently, in order to circumvent that mechanic, I carry the GT spear while my Shadow runs around through walls and uses its touch attack, having it regroup with me to wield the spear, dropping it should it need to go back to the touch attacks/flying through walls.

Sorry, but it don't work. There is no rules that say that the shadow use a strength of 10 for wielding weapons or armors, unless they have the ability cited by Eltacolibre.

Gosth touch say:

PRD wrote:

Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons.

The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time.
A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes.
Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

1) "The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time."

So the shadow can pick it up and move it but it still has ha strength of - . What is its carrying capacity? 0
At best it will suffer the effect of moving more than its maximum load:
PRD wrote:
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

There is a possible interpretation that can allow a - strength creature to carry items:

"a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal."
The incorporeal ability in the glossary say that incorporeal creatures have no weight. If we extend that to incorporeal items it would allow the shadow to carry the spear.

2) "A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes." Any incorporeal creature can move the weapon, but only ghost can use it.
Strange.

3) The shadow isn't proficient with the spear. That is a -4 to hit. AFAIK it has no way to get the needed feat. A shadowdancer get a standard shadow with specific changes. You don't get to change its feats nor it get additional feats.

- * -

I suppose you gave the shadow the spear for the reach, but its strength draining touch is stronger against a lot of enemies. It can attack while hidden in a wall, gaining a noticeable bonus to its AC.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think many players (or even the GM) would want to sacrifice the opportunity cost for some minor levels of utility. Not having a Cloak of Resistance really hurts, especially in the mid to late levels. Spending 14,000 for the level in which it can be constantly used may not be worth in comparison to having some pluses/properties on weapons or armor, or even a stat item.

From tomb of the Iron Medusa:

bodice of resistance wrote:

These garments offer magic protection in the form of a +1 to +5 resistance bonus on all saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will).

Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's
caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Price
9,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

A official body slot item that give resistance from +1 to +5.

I wasn't aware of the bodice of resistance before now - could you break down or quote the pricing model? None of the resistance cloaks have a price or craft price of 9000 GP.

Thanks!

Sorry, I should have cited the header of the item too. The one in the adventure is a Bodice of resistance +3.

While the item description don't say it explicitly, I suppose it follow the same pricing of a cloak:

PRD wrote:

Cloak of Resistance

Aura faint abjuration; CL 5th

Slot shoulders; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5); Weight 1 lb.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That don't work, it should be a spell memorized by the magus in a magus spell slot.
It don't work with spell from magic items, SLA or spell from other staff unless you take the Broad Study arcana.

See FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?

The relevant text of the ability is:

"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."

The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)

The spellstrike ability ahs the same text:

PRD wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think many players (or even the GM) would want to sacrifice the opportunity cost for some minor levels of utility. Not having a Cloak of Resistance really hurts, especially in the mid to late levels. Spending 14,000 for the level in which it can be constantly used may not be worth in comparison to having some pluses/properties on weapons or armor, or even a stat item.

From tomb of the Iron Medusa:

bodice of resistance wrote:

These garments offer magic protection in the form of a +1 to +5 resistance bonus on all saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will).

Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's
caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Price
9,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

A official body slot item that give resistance from +1 to +5.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AJAG wrote:

*FACE-PALM*

The difference between shaken and panicked is quoted in your own post!
OK dude you win! I must admit that I struggle in a discussion with someone who disproves his point with his own posts.

Again, PEACE!

AJAG wrote:


So, Daz Display has the shaken effect, not panicked, frightened or fear!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Again you reiterate your opinion that things with a duration don't have a duration.
Wonderful.

Beside that:

AJAG wrote:
So, Daz Display has the shaken effect, not panicked, frightened or fear!
PRD wrote:

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

I.e.. shaken si a fear effect.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

Grab a copy of the GameMastery Guide. It has charts that break down which weapons and armor are constructed of which materials.

It even shows that Bucklers can be made of wood or metal (a highly debated topic until the book came out).

Many thanks from my druid.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Shadow
Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 15

Can it even carry anything?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You are seriously trying to argue that a effect with a duration end as soon as the source stop, regardless of the duration?
I would hate to be a bard with lingering performance in your games.
Or someone with dazzling display intimating a target for more than 1 round.
Wait, dazzling display is a full round action, so its effect stop as soon as I end it. So the target is intimidated only during my round? After all at the end of the round he isn't seeing the display anymore.

And barred door don't stop sound, especially the sound of a ability that can be heard at 300'.

- * -

The source of a effect is the creature using it. Or you are trying to argue that a vampire dominate ability don't work because the source of the domination is the dominate ability, not the vampire?

- * -

And last but not least: "once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear" is inclusive, not exclusive. You check both things. You should be out of sight and out of hearing of the source of your fear to be able to act normally.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:

I would say Elementals- No. I agree with Treatmonk here.

I have more problem with the material components for fire and water elementals.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:

So far we all seem to be in agreement here.

If anyone reading this disagrees, don't be shy, I would love to hear your opinions. Would love for some discussion/debate on this topic.

When it comes up in other threads, there does not seem to be any consensus on this!

Mojorat wrote:
The problem with elementals is they are not defined well for manipulative digits. Though I think the consensus is they can wield weapons and cast spells.

Wait...did you say "wield weapons"?

So a fire elemental, as in made of fire can pick up and wield a sword?

When did we get consensus on that?

Probably in the thread where some people agreed that a fire elemental is unable to put an object on fire (but he can put a creature on fire with a successful attack and a failed ST) and it don't emit light.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:
My opinion would be that if you make a character who IS a Royal Naga, your character can cast spells. If your character takes the form of a Royal Naga, you would not (unless using the Still Spell feat or a spell without Somatic components).

My interpretation of the rules, too. You learn to cast your spell with your normal form. A human use precise movements of the hands for the somatic part. A naga use precise movement of its body, tail and tongue.

an amorphous blob use vibrations of its body and bubbles in its gel.

In past editions of the game I had players capture a dragon spellbook. They had to "translate" the movements of paws and wings in hand gesture to use the spell within.

Material components have a similar problem.
Example:
identify: Components V, S, M (wine stirred with an owl's feather)
Gargantuan creature with wizard levels will have a hard time stirring some wine with a normal howl feather.

Some spell ask for a pinch of powder. A pinch for a gargantuan creature is very different from a pinch for a diminutive creature.

So all components of a spell are different for differently shaped creatures and even for differently sized creatures.

Learning to cast spells in a form that isn't yours will reacquire training and it would be almost equivalent to re-learning your class level again.

Note that that can create problem when you consider creature that often shape change, like some dragon, but that kind of creature generally ahs a long lifespan, so they had the time to learn to cast spells in different forms an I would say that they have problem casting spells in forms to which they are unaccustomed.

To learn how to do that druid need to take a feat and are a class that has the innate advantage of a very long lasting change of form.

There is a big difference in learning to cast spells in animal form when you can spend 1/minute level in animal form for each polymorph spell you cant and being someone that can spend 1 hour/level in animal form 1 or more times in a day.

Andoran

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AJAG wrote:

@Diego Rossi,

Sorry, not to argue, just to point out that I said "innate to Yeth Hounds", now in essence I agree with you that animals can be trained to do more than just open doors, but that said, how many DM's will grant that innately or even at all to your Druids companion, a familiar or an Eidolon. Some DM's will and some will not. Unfortuantely it is not specifically covered in the rules to my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

But, and this is just 'my' opinion, a savage Yeth Hound would fail at opening doors, intelligent as it is, and without any indication of such training in the RotRL AP, makes no mention of it.
Would Nualia train them to do that? Perhaps! Again, up to the DM.

However,

Diego Rossi wrote:
The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.

OK, that seems pretty clear to me, but I understand how and maybe why you feel the 'panicked' rules do not work that way, but the RAW is fairly clear about "once they are out of (hearing)".
So if the Yeth is not howling and the PC's cannot hear it, it would seem to imply the effect wears off, or more specifically, "they can act as they want".

Now, I agree in that if you are facing a Yeth Hound and are struck by this panicked effect, it would continue to affect you as long as the "Source" of that threat is present, however, a threat on the other side of a door does not to me in and of itself cause you to keep running IMO.
I understand if you wish to adjudicate it this way but I think it could be a little bit harsh, and I suspect most players would agree.
I conceed that many would not play it this way, but according to the RAW, it could and probably should be implemented like that.

This could use some clarification from the friendly staff at Paizo.

Sorry, Diego, again, I am not arguing with you, I would still...

Your words (bold mine):

AJAG wrote:
My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.

The rules:

PRD wrote:
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. [Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

"They can act as they want" is very, very different from "the panicked effect would have effectively ended." plus "being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated."

The source of the fear is the Yeth hound not, the howling. And panicked don't require you to be out of sight and hearing of the source but of any danger. and the panic effect resume as soon as you see or hear any source of danger, not only if you see the Yeth hound.

And another citation for you, from page 563 of the CRB, exactlya bove the one you cited:

PRD wrote:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

plus

PRD wrote:


Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

The Yeth hound bay has a duration, its effect don't end because the hound has stopped baying.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AJAG wrote:

Just to note this: from the CRB 563

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and
they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as
they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than
running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them
rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of
sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as
they want.
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented
from fleeing.

Of course, GM's can interperate this any way they want, but unless the Yeth was continually howling or you had Line-of-sight to them, I am thinking that your "vindictive DM" (your words not mine!) made sure that you couldn't close that door, otherwise you (being out of sight=yes, out of hearing range=maybe) could have tried to hold that door and then after the seven rounds of panic were over, act as you like.

My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.
Each DM to their own, but I try to make low level adventures fun but not deadly. Seems like the DM was having a bad day!

@questions, don't give up on Pathy, it is a good system with some flaws, but I believe this TPK has more to do with the way your DM wanted that encounter to go, rather harsh, I feel! Sorry, just my opinion.

Now another thing, a 6 Intelligence creature is smart compaired to your average animal, but does this necessarily mean that they know how to open doors? I don't think that knowledge is innate to Yeth Hounds!? I know this didn't happen but you mentioned it, so just say'n! This is arbitted by your respective DM, I think...

Cats and dogs know how to open doors. A barred door would have blocked the yeth hound if he was unable to break through it, but a simple door with a handle can be opened by several animals, albeit probably it would require at least 1 round and some dex based check.

An animal with 6 intelligence will be capable to open it.

Cat opening several doors

- * -

The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

- * -

Put aside the above points, from questions report the problem is the GM, not the rule system. It seem that he was gunning for a TPK.
Problem GM are problem GM, regardless of the system.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The downtime rules are very abstract. The 8 hours a day is an approximation because they had to write down how long a work-day is. In short, a downtime day is a downtime day - ignore the '8 hours' part. The idea being, that even though you are working 8 hours a day, and sleeping 8 hours a day, you also have to eat, deal with personal care issues, and general time wasting that is required to remain sane.

This ^

A day of work is the full day for the downtime rules.

and:

PRD - Magic Item Creation wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

You can devote 4 hours day to crafting magic item while adventuring, not while working at another project.

The way in which you spend time while adventuring is different from the way in which you spend time wile working.

If you are fighting someone generally it take little time, even exploring a dungeon take little time (for a old timer like me, too little time against the kind of exploration you do [I have done some spelunking, you spend a lot of time even exploring a small cave with 200' square feet of floor space]). Traveling from a place to another while adventuring can take a lot of time, but usually you have plenty of interruptions that will allow you to do your enchanting. If youa re doing a forced march I wouldn't allow you to enchant something the same day.

Working generally keep you occupied for 8 solid hours, with relatively short interruptions.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
questions wrote:
Everyone was level 2 at this point so failing was either a 50/50 chance for the group

4 characters with an average +1 to the save, DC 12.

50% chance to save for each one is 6.25% chance of all of them failing the save. Bad luck.

You GM was right about you being unable to close a door behind you.
When panicked you use whatever method you have available to flee and yes, that include casting spells and using items. Note that the character would be unable to use any ability not directly related to fleeing, so a GM could reasonably argue that he is unable to make a concentration check to avoid an AoO.

questions wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
Yeah... couldn't close the door. Sucks, but mechanically true. How many CR 3 Yeth Hounds was your group of level 2s facing?
2, the problem was that we had to make a will save for both hounds, half of us made it for the first hound then failed on the second hound.

That change things. It mean about a 30% chance of the whole group failing the save.

that can easily generate a TPK.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A rapid check give me a maximum strength of 39 while raging under the influence of monstrous physique II and with a +6 strength item. You have some inherent bonus to strength?
Or you are getting some bonus to strength from other sources?

Note that two or more enhancement bonus to strength don't stack, even if one is Ex or Su.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Flying-Toaster wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Also on the side of your GM, it seems like you know the rules better or have played more then they do. And so they feel that things that are "too strong" must me against the rules. Go easy on them. Rule mastery leads to strong things that others feel can't be right.
I have only been playing Pathfinder for a month, but i've spent 50 hours reading up on rules specific to the build i'm trying to create over the last week. He's been a GM for Pathfinder for years.

Before trying to apply the "great" build that you have found on Internet it is a good idea to learn the basic rules.

As it has been explained you can't mix two polymorph effects on the same character, even if they are from supernatural abilities.
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the build did violate some other rule. The Internet is great to find information, but the errors are repeated as often as the valid informations, so you need to check if the build is valid comparing it to the actual rules.

Andoran

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JoeJ wrote:

Now I'm imagining an inquisitor carrying a dummy into a dungeon and punching it every few seconds just so they can keep a judgment going.

The inquisitor judgments require one or more foes, a training dummy isn't a foe.

PRD wrote:
Starting at 1st level, an inquisitor can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action.

Andoran

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

My major problem with uses per day isn't so much the fluff (of which I shall keep my opinion on it close to the vest, though it seems to differ from many in this thread)... It's the gameplay consequences.

In short.. It reinforces the fifteen minute work day. At least from what I've experienced. I know very few who would actually want to be the truly epic big damn heroes that continue on despite being tired and worn out.

I can understand resting for HP... But when entire parties are resting because people are out of x/day (this includes x/rounds, x/anything, x/etc), despite having good HP and casters still have a handful spells left... Totally breaks my verisimilitude.

I can get the tactical advantage of fighting the BBEG at totally topped off everything... But there's no effing thrill to the story when the heroes plow through a dungeon, rest for a few hours inside said dungeon, then go off to fight the final boss as pristine as the day they left town! And usually, due to how most of these 'Boss Fights' are designed, these fully fresh characters often trounce said boss... Because there's nothing in the module that states the boss would rather harass them while sleeping, than sitting in his sanctuary wringing his hands evilly and twirling his mustache.

Don't believe me? I've seen it, I've been in parties that do it. Several times. One of my worst groups would practically boycott and derail the game until they got to do it, which is not a good experience for a new GM (who was only doing it because none of the usual GMs wanted to, despite only having been playing for a year beforehand), which made her vow never to GM again, mainly due to the fact, that they vehemently argued with very raised voices they 'Should' be able to ONLY so the casters can re-prepare their spells, and the barb can get rage rounds ("By not letting us sleep, you're just trying to pull a TPK!"). After only ONE and a HALF combats at level 2 (they retreated, and the nature of the dream labyrinth prevents things from...

Puna'chong wrote:

My groups know that if they try to take a nap in the dungeon they're probably going to get ganked. So they've all got it in their minds that their shot at the haunted castle or enemy lair is either a full attack or they'll need to find a way to retreat. Which makes them conserve resources and use them smarter, and also gauge whether they need to beat a tactical withdrawal.

I mean, I'm not a total jerk and I will let them rest on occasion, especially if the dungeon is large and they've got an area relatively secure, but I also run my encounters with the idea that they're resource tests. If you blow all of your abilities on an encounter you're going to have a hard time on the next one; if you don't have abilities to blow that entire attrition factor goes out the window.

This ^

Maybe it is because all of the players in my group have learned to play with 1st ed. AD&D but we assume wandering monsters, the need to end a fight or retreat to a secure position and to have resources to fight at least one more time during the night or while returning to our secure base, but we rarely play the 15 minute adventuring day burning all our resources in 1 or 2 battles.

Infinite resources without limitations will be used every round, to the point that they will become very boring to use.

Infinite resources with a recovery time (think alchemist mutagen) will become use it in a fight, rest till you recover.

1 use for battle will have the players used as an example by Artemis argue that running out of the room/sight of the enemy and returning 1 round later is the same thing that entering a battle anew, so they should be able to use their powers again.

Problem players are always problem players.

Andoran

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PRD wrote:

Musket, Axe: This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.

It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon.
If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

I notice that no one cite the bolded part.

The axe musket is a double weapon for purpose of enchanting. Being a blackblade include a form of enchanting and a axe musket, being a double weapon isn't suitable for that specific form of enchanting.

Andoran

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Ipslore the Red wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?
For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.
I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

The problem with wyroot is a badly thought out item. It is better than the capstone ability of the black blade and only cost a few thousand gp.

Andoran

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Kysune wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's look it this way:

You Y
your Friend F
the Enemy E

are placed this way

YFE

You are behind your friend, it seem counterintuitive that you can interpose your shield or your weapon between the enemy and your friend.
If you have a reach weapon it work, because you can use the businesses end of your weapon to menace the enemy, forcing him to be more cautious in his attacks.

I don't see it as counterintuitive if you're behind your friend. In a realistic setting, the enemy is swinging their sword into "F's" square, attempting to hit "F". You're shield has a 5ft reach and you're thrusting your shield into "F's" square as a reaction to their attack. Thus, 3 things are now in "F's" square - F, enemy's sword, ally's shield. If a straight thrust from the sword, maybe the shield is getting thrusted in front of F. If the sword is being swung to the left or right at F's side, the shield is being thrusted to either side to hopefully block the attack. I don't see how you'd have to reach "E" if you're trying to block an attack in "F's" square since "F" is 5ft, your shield has more than enough reach.

I also see how a reach weapon is logical as you're distracting, discouraging, or possibly deflecting an attack with the weapon but in that regard you're reaching into "E's" square whereas when "E" attacks, the weapon is effectively reaching into "F's" square to hit "F".

This is my reasoning for "Why do I have to threaten the enemy to defend them via Bodyguard, where Bodyguard doesn't state I need to." I also pointed out that the standard Aid-Another action refers to distracting/interfering and you could argue that interfering = blocking but I also feel that blocking is a different category in itself and that the standard aid-another is not taking into account "Bodyguarding" as that is feat required. (Also, Bodyguard requires Combat Reflexes so there is a bit of feat tax for this, unless you're building a reach fighter then it's an easy pickup.)

Sure, bumping your shield in the should blades of your friend will help him greatly. In getting hit by the enemy.

Andoran

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It require the use of a AoO, to get an AoO you need to threaten an enemy.
The normal version to Aid another require you to threaten the enemy, not to be adjacent to your friend.

While that isn't definitive evidence, the feat change specific things about using aid another to improve someone AC:

1) it allow you to use a AoO instead of a standard action;
2) it require you to be adjacent to your friend.

Nowhere it say that other things are changed, it can be an oversight but I think that you need to threaten the enemy.

Let's look it this way:

You Y
your Friend F
the Enemy E

are placed this way

YFE

You are behind your friend, it seem counterintuitive that you can interpose your shield or your weapon between the enemy and your friend.
If you have a reach weapon it work, because you can use the businesses end of your weapon to menace the enemy, forcing him to be more cautious in his attacks.

On the gripping hand the feat is clear about the action use, you use it off turn consuming an AoO. There is no text saying that you use your next round action.

Andoran

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There is a simple reason for this limitation:
the characters and the NPC are limited by the grid in how and where they can move. If you use templates for the area of the spells but force the character to move along the grid the casters and creatures with powers with an area effect will get a noticeable benefit. so you either use the grid for all stuff or you use actual measurements for all stuff.

Andoran

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And you still use a spell slot to cast them. so if your friend has 9 hp of damage you generally don't use a cure moderate wound that will cure an average of 13 hp at 4th level, you use CLW that will cure an average of 8.5 hp.

Andoran

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AFAIK, a metamagiced cantrip isn't a cantrip anymore and he can't be cast an unlimited number of times, even if it stay a 0 level spell thorugh the usage of some trait or ability.

Andoran

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Squiggit wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Magus. A personalized spell list and he get almost nothing at a lower spell level (nothing with the spells in UM).
The summoner is a 9 spell levels class masquerading as a 6 spell levels class.
Yeah. I know the magus gets stuck with only 6 levels of spells... but that's not really relevant when I'm comparing it to the summoner or inquisitor (done on purpose because summoner and sacred huntsman inquisitor both do the hunter's job better than the hunter).

Comparing the spell list of a class with 6 level of spells to that of the summoner will always give you the impression that the other class spell list is lacking, but that isn't a problem of the other class spell list, it is a problem of the summoner spell list. 45% of the spells in his spell list in the APG are at a lower level than other classes.

Use the bard as a comparison, he only get 12% of his spells at a lover level than other classes.

Andoran

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Squiggit wrote:


As for the hunter. I think it's being underappreciated, but I do see a few things that irk me with it.
-Not having a custom spell list really hurts: Summoner and Inquisitor get their own spell list, which means they get thematically appropriate 7/8/9ths on their list. Hunter just draws from the Druid list, so he's stuck at real 6th level stopping point. Not gamebreaking again, but can hurt later on

Magus. A personalized spell list and he get almost nothing at a lower spell level (nothing with the spells in UM).

The summoner is a 9 spell levels class masquerading as a 6 spell levels class.

magnuskn wrote:
Which is where I see the problem with the class. It completely misses all those critical "+ to hit" buffs other casters can get, at least where spells are concerned. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Bless, Prayer, Haste, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Good Hope and Wrath are all not available to the Hunter.

Again Magus, beside haste he miss all those spells and he is a good melee fighter.

Andoran

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magnuskn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

I fail to see how "I need to choose between several options to see what swift actions I should use. " is worse than: "My class has no class based uses for a swift action."

Having ways to use your swift action is a strong action bonus, not a penalty.

I have a hard time seeing how having good swift action bonus is a drawback.

The problem is that you can't use the "not as good" ones, because you need the swift/immediate action for the stuff which really helps. Doubling your precision damage on one hit is not as good an option as having had to use Charmed Life or Riposte when it was not your turn. For that matter, Riposte is not as good an option as having Charmed Life available. Things like Dizzying Defense, Dodging Panache and Menacing Swordplay are just not usable class features, because you need the swift action for simply more important stuff.

Mythic gameplay (grantedly a corner case) just excerbates the problem.

Your immediate action reset at the end of your turn. Sure using it eat the next swift action, but either you use it every round or you have your swift available during your turn and it still reset after you have used the swift action. Either way you use a swift/immediate action every round. Plenty of classed don't get to do that.

Andoran

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I fail to see how "I need to choose between several options to see what swift actions I should use. " is worse than: "My class has no class based uses for a swift action."
Having ways to use your swift action is a strong action bonus, not a penalty.

I have a hard time seeing how having good swift action bonus is a drawback.

Andoran

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Woolfe wrote:


Ipslore the Red wrote:
and the only major nation in the world other than America is China, and maybe Russia if you want to be generous. Every other nation is nearly irrelevant.

Actually china does use metric, they metrificated in 1925, and Russia was 1918. Like many metric western systems there are still residual usage of their original system in general use.

And I like how you write off the second largest market Paizo has for Pathfinder (EUROPE) as irrelevant. LOL as I said it was the reactionary attitude to having multiple versions.

He isn't speaking about the adoption of the metric system or the market share, he is speaking about the US and China being the only powers worth of notice in the world.

He even has some basis for that position, the only problem is that the US power has degraded a lot in the last 20 years.

Woolfe wrote:


And I like how you write off the second largest market Paizo has for Pathfinder (EUROPE) as irrelevant. LOL as I said it was the reactionary attitude to having multiple versions.

If Pathfinder follow other games trend probably Germany is the non English native country with the largest market share, and there is a good number of countries where German is a common second language.

- * -

Using the feet measurement is ingrained in the game and changing that could generate difficulties, a 1,5 meter step is awkward, a 4,5 meter cone or 6 meter sphere are a bit unwieldy and the conversion is easy.
Inches too, you round them to 2,5 cm and you go from there.

Lbs are so/so, you can approximate to a decent degree and work with fractions/multipliers for the other measurement.

On the other hand the Fahrenheit system and the volume measurement are horrible.

For anyone that isn't used to the Fahrenheit the system is hard to translate. Awkward reference points (freezing point of brine? unless you live near a sea in a cold climate you don't have an intuitive reference to that, human body temperature is a bit better but still variable), and a difference of 1 F° is almost meaningless. 1 C° is almost double that and a difference of 1 C° hard to notice without a thermometer.

When we speak of a gallon we are speaking of a imperial, US or dry gallon? And why we use a measurement system with a 3,7 liter unit? 1 liter is a minimum water ration in a moderate climate. Both the US and the UK have the quarter, 1/4 of a gallon, that "curiously" is a measure close to a liter.

Andoran

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Nefreet wrote:

Are there any Rays that don't "only deal energy damage"?

Admonishing Ray comes to mind, but its damage is superior to anything on the Sacred Weapon chart already.

PRD wrote:

You blast your enemies with rays of nonlethal force.

...
This is a force effect.

Not energy, but it doesn't deal B/P/S damage.

Or maybe they do B damage:

PRD wrote:


The rays hit about as hard as a punch from a strong adult human, and can knock away unattended objects weighing up to 10 pounds if that amount of force could normally do so.

I would limit the sacred weapon bonus to things that do B/P/S damage.

Andoran

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wakedown wrote:
anlashok wrote:
It can be good against metamagic though, since metamgagic explicitly does not increase the level of a spell, only the level of the slot it takes.

Such is not the case in games we're playing, as we're using this FAQ which indicates the spell is indeed higher level.

I agree though, the arcanist class and counterspell exploit are amazing in a GM's hands, as the arcanist will be spending immediate actions to negate the party spellcaster's standard actions for at least the first couple rounds of combat. :)

FEAR THE ARCANIST BBEG!

Kyle Baird: Make this happen.

I think you have misread that FAQ.

First, the question:

FAQ wrote:
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

It give a specific list, it is not for everything.

Then:

FAQ wrote:


In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Being counted as a lower level spell for counterspelling is the more disadvantage for the caster interpretation for the caster.

You should read the threads that spawned that FAQ. People trying to recall a empowered magic missile with a qst level pearl of power and claiming that was what the rules say.

Andoran

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LeesusFreak wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
LazarX wrote:

And raise dead won't bring you back.

of course one has to ask what kind of GM is hitting first level characters with neg level effects.

Is there some provision where you can like also do an immediate casting of Restoration or whatever to remove the negative level or am I thinking of something else?
I'm guessing something else, because RAW is pretty flat that as soon as you take the effect, if your effective level falls to 0, you outright die. Like dying from having 0 CON (not sure if you can be brought back by any caveats from that, though).
I meant immediately casting Restoration right after like Raise Dead or whatever.

Oh, no, yeah, you're right, and I'm wrong!

It does seem like it takes two clerics to do it, though, since Restoration has a casting time of 1 minute, and the spell needs to take place the round after the creature is revived.

It has been changed to 3 rounds, but still a long time. Restoration +raise dead require 2 clerics or some some nifty maneuver with UMD.

Andoran

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Mm... Not quite sure where you're getting "both simultaneously" from.

From here:

Artemis Moonstar wrote:


Basically, her idea was to play a Rondolero Duelist utilizing the Falcata and Buckler, but also wield another Falcata in the buckler hand. Utilize the two weapon fighting feat chain with the shield bashing goodness that lets her make a shield bash when she scores a critical hit... On the Falcata's 19-20/x3.

2 weapon fighting with two falcata while wielding a buckler at the same time.

Artemis Moonstar wrote:


Mainly was asking for this here. Free Shield Bash After a Crit! .

Seems I forgot to put that in the OP. Silly me X_X.

[quote=PRD[Bashing Finish (Combat)

You follow a powerful blow from your weapon with an opportunistic bash from your shield.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the same target using the same bonus as a free action.

Use the PRD when possible.

If the character is using the falcata in his off hand he is not using the buckler, so he can't sue the buckler to attack.

Andoran

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SRD wrote:

Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.

Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

Buckler Bash - that is a specific exception to the rules, as you normally can't make shield bash with a buckler.

Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

He the problem start. You need to wield both the falcata and the buckler. Wield isn't used with perfect consistency in the rules, but generally it mean "actively use". For a shield like object it mean using it to increase your AC or to make a shield bash. If it is on a arm that is used for other things you aren't wilding it.

You can have a buckler strapped to your arm while wielding a falcata in the corresponding hand. but when you attack with the falcata you aren't wielding the buckler. The archetype don't change that (at least the two abilities cited don't do that) and the text of the ability implies that you are using both hands.

With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.

Actually this is redundant as it is something that you can do normally (if you can make attacks with the buckler). If you have iterative attacks and you are using them you can use weapons in different hands, as long as you use a different iterative with each hand and you aren't using two weapon fighting.

This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

It isn't two weapon fighting. It replace weapon training 1 with a bonus specific set of weapons.

èquote=FAQ] Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
posted November 2011

PRD wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

It is possible to argue that the character in question can make a shield bash with his off hand as one of his attacks instead of attacking with the falcata in his off hand and so wield the buckler, but as soon as he use the falcata in his off hand he change the weapon he is wielding, like a person that drop his mace to draw a sword with quick draw and use it for an attack. So he don't get to wield at the same time 2 falcata and a buckler, he get to wield 2 weapons while using to weapon faithing, it is his choice what pair of weapons.

Andoran

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Don't work.
Two weapon fighting is a full attack that require both hands. At that point your shield arm is used and you can't use it again to wield both a buckler and a second falcata.

Andoran

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dragonhunterq wrote:
KestrelZ wrote:

Not certain of the question here.

Apply maneuverability when it says you can. In the case of wildshape, you gain the basic creature's maneuverability.

In the case of the Fly spell -
You add (or subtract) the maneuverability as a miscellaneous bonus. The caster bonus is bonus from another source (power of the spell rather than from the maneuverability). This means the two are cumulative. Not that overpowering as people under a fly spell shouldn't be dogfighting in the air for long anyway.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Fly spell isn't natural by any definition of the word i'm familiar with, and you only get the maneouverability bonus with a natural fly speed.

The mention of maneouverability in the Fly spell seems redundant as it does nothing to change the rules of the fly skill.

Beast shape grants you normal movement bonuses, including natural fly speed, so you should add it then.

The question really should be about the creatures that fly without wings, so for example Kirin, or Air Elementals? FWIW I would say any creature with an inherent ability to fly at will should gain the bonus.

I agree. Some polymorph spell blur that limit as you don't become the creature and you acquire only some of its abilities. .

Nefreet wrote:
This is now the 3rd thread about this exact same question, but I'm pretty sure you're the only one each time that's been claiming you don't get the +4 from good maneuverability.

Actually it is part of what andreww asked in his thread, I simply tried to make the question clearer to be FAQed.

Nefreet wrote:


It's not FAQ worthy. You run it how you want, and I'll run it how I want.

But to simply believe it's a copy/paste error, with no other suggestion from Developers or Designers to point anyone in that direction, IMO, is not how rules should be read.

You have some rule that change the requirement of having a natural fly speed to get the maneuverability modifier?

Something that say that the fly spell give a natural fly speed?

Andoran

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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The fly skill say:

PRD wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.

The fly spell say:

PRD wrote:
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

To me that seem a leftover from the previous edition of the game that has been overwritten by this part of the spell:

PRD wrote:
The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.

Other people feel differently.

Then we have the beastshape spells that give the ability to fly with a specific maneuverability (that change with the different spells). The beastshape spells only give specific supernatural abilities, so it seem that we are speaking of naturals ways to fly, here. And the spells don't give any bonus to the fly skill beside the maneuverability.

So the question is:
When we should apply the maneuverability class bonus? What is a natural fly speed and what isn't?

Andoran

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Nefreet wrote:

So, IYO, a Wizard who has been spending the majority of his 20th level career flying about the world, with max ranks in the Fly skill, who practices every day, several times a day, would not benefit from the +4 maneuverability?

I choose to believe "it's magic" and play the game.

Yes, he would benefit from a +10 from the spell instead of good maneuverability. I would say that he is clearly ahead.

Andoran

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Nefreet wrote:
Unfortunately, as Diego's example shows, you'll obviously encounter table variation regarding the maneuverability granted by the Fly spell. I choose to go by what is written and not assume it is a copy/paste error, while others look a bit too deep into it for my tastes.

To me it is fairly clear that the benefit from good maneuverability has been replaced by the spell bonus.

Note this row in the Fly skill description:

PRD wrote:
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).

It show that the developers feel that there is a clear difference between flying naturally or using the fly spell.

Andoran

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Tom Sampson wrote:
Admittedly that came out more accusatory than I meant it. I was making more of an a observation, really. And frankly, that was the sort of question that indicates inexperience with UMD.

Tom, your replies about UMD show that you don't know its limits.

Using UMD to appear good to an item don't change/remove your original alignment. So using UMD you can convince the gate to work as if you were good, but in addition it still affect you as you were evil too.

You are in the same position of a half elf using a item that will help elves but harm human. You get both effects.

If you use your interpretation it would be possible to sue UMD ti convince a scroll of holy word that your evil rogue is good and so make it immune from the spell when cast.

You tried to patch your initial position changing how your example gate work:

Tom Sampson wrote:


Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.

that could work if you interpret "pass" as activating the gate, depending on how the gate work, but I would require a better definition of the item operation. As written the rogue isn't activating the item at all, so it is a bit of a gray area if he can use UMD on it.

Again, your interpretation would have the rogue able to bypass a Forbiddance spell if generated by an item but not if cast by hand.

PRD wrote:

Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

"You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate." and "The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below."

That table hasn't a entry for "class" so you can't choose to emulate a class.

Tom Sampson wrote:
Diego rossi wrote:
Again: being a divine spellcaster isn't a class feature.
And I'm afraid you just confirmed my assumption.

You did even reiterate it, wile still being wrong.

The feature is spells. Not divine caster. There is no UMD ability that change the source of your spells.
The incense require you to be "a divine spellcaster", show me where the UMD table allow you to change the source of your spells.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Victor Zajic wrote:
wouldn't you need the Hover feat to 5ft step while flying with good maneuverability?

Note that while fly give you a fly speed it is not a natural fly speed, so the modifier for the maneuverability don't apply:

PRD wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.

Probably the part in the spell about good maneuverability is a leftover for the 3.X editions of the game.

On the other hand the creature using the fly spell get a bonus to his fly skill based on the caster level of the spell.

CommandoDude wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:
wouldn't you need the Hover feat to 5ft step while flying with good maneuverability?

1st You can't even take that feat because you need an innate fly speed to take it

2nd No, but if you don't move you have to make a Fly check

PRD wrote:


Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15

5' is almost certainly less than half speed so the flye need to make a DC 10 check to stay in flight.

- * -

On a related matter, if you are flying and try to make a 5' step, you can increase your altitude?
I think it is not feasible, as you have to spend 10' of movement, so it isn't a 5' step anymore.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tom Sampson wrote:
I did read both, although apparently I focused on the wrong line for the ring. (The line I focused on was "Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level." rather than "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.") Kindly refrain from jumping to accusations.
Tom Sampson wrote:


Since you are bothering to make this argument, I am going to assume you have no real experience with UMD.

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