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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 10,103 posts (10,642 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 7 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

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Ravingdork wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

Uhhh, normally your questions are pretty good.

What happened today?

The word "maintain" doesn't even appear in the spell description. So it made me wonder if you even needed to make any such check.

It only talks about checks to deal damage, not to maintain. The spell also says creatures can't move until THEY can break the grapple. That implies that they can only break out on their turn, rather than the caster's turn.

I don't really see it as a poor question at all.

PRD wrote:

Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast.

...
The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling ...
PRD wrote:


Grapple

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.
...
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
...
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
...
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
...

You re grappling at straws, Rav.

Liberty's Edge

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CWheezy wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Locally, rogues just always roll the sneak attack with every attack, and the GM/player only adds it if it applies. Part of it is habit, as forgetting to sneak attack when you can sucks. Other part is when the target is disguised or otherwise unknown to actually be immune to the sneak attack, so the GM may want it rolled so you don't suspect the immunity.
I think if I was a backstabby guy, I would notice if the spot I hit was like, an ooze or an elemental

Some alchemist have a chance to avoid precision damage (and I think a few archetypes of other classes), there are spells and magic items for that, some strange creature (there is a specie of intelligent oozes that disguise themselves ar humans) and so on.

It isn't always so clear cut.

Probably you would notice that the attack wasn't as successful as you thought, but knowing way is another matter.

Liberty's Edge

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This is a AP that has always interested me.
I will think about what I want to do. Sadly the campaign guide is not available for download (I have the printed version), but here are the campaign trait from Herolab. The description is more complete than on D20PRD.

Earning Your Freedom
You’ve been a slave your whole life, and have passed from master to master more times than you can count. Some of those masters were cruel, others kindly. In all cases, you’ve yearned to be free. When your most recent master fell on hard times, he sold many of his slaves to the city government, and as luck would have it, a recent opportunity to earn your freedom has manifested. The Pactmasters of Katapesh are looking to revitalize an old trade route to Osirion, and a band of mercenaries and guards is gathering to go out and supplement forces already in place near the ruined village of Kelmarane, now said to be infested by gnolls. You’ve secured a place among those mercenaries, under the watchful eye of Garavel. If you help in retaking Kelmarane, you’ve been promised your freedom. In any event, your life as a slave has toughened you and made you more resistant to hardship.

Benefit: Choose one of the three categories of saving throw; you gain a +1 trait bonus on all saving throws of that type.

Finding Haleen
You never knew your parents—perhaps they died when you were a child, or maybe you were taken from them and raised elsewhere as a slave. You owe your sanity and your life to a woman named Haleen. She could be your sister or merely a childhood companion, but whatever your relationship to her, she took care of you and protected you. She’s always been a part of your life, and although her temper often kept her from making friends or keeping a job, she’s always been kind to you. Haleen was instrumental in securing your freedom from slavery or making sure you got a good apprenticeship or job in society—but recently, she’d been growing strangely morose and depressed. You and Haleen normally kept no secrets, but whatever was bothering her wasn’t something she shared with you. One night, she vanished, leaving you a brief note, begging you to forget her and to get on with your life, but something about the note bothered you—something in the way she phrased her words struck you as forced. You may be convinced she’d been kidnapped, forced to leave against her will, or even magically controlled, but you also suspect that she left you to protect you from something—that was ever her way. You’re now convinced that it’s time for you to step in and protect her, but you had no idea where she may have gone until recently. Several months have passed since she disappeared, and you’ve spent those months searching for clues to her location, and you’ve finally found a lead—a mysterious note, a strange dream, the result of a back-alley divination, or a report of a sighting of a woman matching Haleen’s description has come to you, placing Haleen in the vicinity of an old ghost town named Kelmarane. What she’s doing there and how she came to be there makes no sense to you yet, but the lead is the strongest one you’ve had. This and Garavel’s advertisement for mercenaries to accompany him to the region is all the omen you need. You joined Garavel’s group and eagerly await the day you’ll be leaving for Kelmarane.

Benefit: Although Haleen chose to become a swashbuckling adventurer, she always encouraged you to seek your own path, and her support is the primary reason you chose the class you did at 1st level. This class is always a favored class to you, and your dedication to it is such that every time you take a level in the class, you gain +1 hit point and 1 additional skill point over and above what you would normally gain. If multiple PCs take this trait, they should be siblings who were both protected and raised by Haleen.

Gnoll Killer
You grew up in rural Katapesh, in a region where gnoll activity was a fact of life. You killed your first gnoll at a young age when a group of gnoll slavers attacked your village, home, or caravan, and your hatred of gnolls has only grown since then. Something in your past fueled your hatred of gnolls even further— perhaps your family was slaughtered by gnolls, or maybe you even served a few harrowing weeks as a prisoner of a gnoll tribe before a miraculous escape. When you heard that Garavel was looking for brave men and women to aid in retaking the village of Kelmarane from a tribe of gnolls in the service of the notorious Carrion King, you knew you had to be part of the group, and signed up immediately.
You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls made against gnolls. If you are a barbarian and you’re fighting gnolls, your rage lasts 1 round longer than normal. If you’re a ranger and you select humanoid (gnoll) as a favored enemy, your trait bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls against gnolls increases to +2. If you’re a spellcaster, you gain a +1 trait bonus to spell save DCs for damaging spells against gnolls.

Missionary
You’ve spent much of the last several years serving your faith, and the conviction and dedication to your church has impressed many.
Perhaps you’ve donated much of your personal wealth or time to serving the church, or you’re the child of a powerful or well-loved member of the church, an orphan raised by the church, or a foundling with a strange birthmark that bears more than a passing resemblance to your faith’s holy symbol. The faith has long supported you, and you are eager to repay the church in some way. In Katapesh, the establishment of a new village is always cause for interest to the nation’s churches, as establishing new temples in villages is an excellent way to expand upon the church’s resources and bring in more faithful. If the Pactmasters’ plans to revitalize and rebuild Kelmarane are successful, the village will need a temple, and your faith is keenly interested in being represented there. This campaign trait is particularly suited to worshipers of Sarenrae, as Kelmarane was founded near an old monastery dedicated to the Dawnflower, and reconsecrating that monastery is of great interest to Sarenrae’s church. Furthermore, a temple dedicated to her once stood in Kelmarane itself, but it has long since fallen into ruin; whispers among the religion tell that the church’s old pastor may have fallen from grace and may even have been part of the cause of the hard times that befell the village.
You’ve joined Garavel’s band in hopes of helping to establish a new temple in the soon-to-be revitalized village.

Benefit:
You’ve been selected for your dedication to the church and your strong social graces—pick one of the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Perform (any), or Sense Motive. You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks using that skill, and it is always considered a class skill for you.

Reclaiming Your Roots
Your interest in the village of Kelmarane is more personal than most of the others who are heading out to aid in the reclamation.
You aren’t seeking revenge against gnolls, glory, money, or anything else—to you, this is purely a matter of honor, as Kelmarane is where you were born. Your were forced to flee the village when you were only a few years old, and you didn’t discoverer this until a few years ago—perhaps you found an old document that revealed the truth, or maybe you learned the news from a relative. Both of your parents are now dead, and from what you’ve been able to piece together, one of your parents actually died in the village when whatever happened there happened. Your surviving parent spirited you away to safety to grow up elsewhere, but never spoke of Kelmarane and always told you that your other parent died when you were a child in a horrific tragedy like a fire or a flood that swept away the body. Now that you’ve started to uncover the truth, you are convinced that your heritage remains hidden in Kelmarane. Whether you just wish to find out what really happened to your parent that died there or you want to rebuild the village in his or her honor is up to you—but Garavel’s caravan to the village is just the opportunity you’ve been waiting for.

Benefit:
When your other parent died recently, among his or her effects was a single item that once belonged to the parent who died at Kelmarane. This item is your most valued possession—a piece of jewelry worth 350 gp, any masterwork weapon or armor worth no more than 350 gp, or a wand containing any 1st-level spell (CL 1st) with only 20 charges remaining. If you ever lose this item, your resulting depression imposes a –1 penalty on Will saves for 1 year.

Seeking Adventure
The Pathfinder Society has long intrigued you—tales of the exotic lands and strange discoveries made by Pathfinders have enchanted your dreams and fired your imagination since childhood. When Pathfinders came through your village or neighborhood, they immediately enthralled you with their stories and knowledge. Yet at the time, you were far too young to join them, and when they left for adventure you had to stay behind. Now that you are of age, you’ve traveled to Absalom to apply for membership. The application process went well, and you’re now a full member. Your first assignment is to accompany Garavel’s group to Kelmarane—the Pathfinder Society has heard rumors of several ancient structures in the area, including a ruined monastery once dedicated to Sarenrae, and would like to learn more about them. Even more pressing is the mystery of what brought about Kelmarane’s ruin in the first place—reports of which are vague at best. If you can determine the cause of the village’s abandonment so many years ago, you’re sure the Society would be impressed.

Benefit:

You begin the game with your own wayfinder, a loan from your venture-captain. You’ve promised to pay your venture-captain 500 gp for the wayfinder some day, but for now it’s yours to use. A wayfinder is a magical compass that grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost, and can be commanded to emit light as the spell (CL 5th) as a standard action. Further details on the Pathfinder Society and wayfinders may be found in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (pages 194–195) or Seekers of Secrets.

Liberty's Edge

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Firearms?
Oriental weapon/armor?
Magus, Inquisitor, Oracle, alchemist?
Point buy or roll stats?

Liberty's Edge

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Bashamo wrote:
There's a FAQ that revolved AoMF with weapon properties affecting natural attacks. It was ruled that a Speed AoMF only granted one extra attack to a creature with multiple natural attacks, rather than giving each weapon an extra attack. It was ruled this way NOT because it was against the wording of AoMF (that wasn't even mentioned), but because it would be way too powerful if it did work that way.

Actually speed is not stackable with any haste effect, speed included, so you can't get multiple speed effects even if you have multiple speed weapons and/or benefit from haste.

FAQ wrote:

Speed Weapons: Can I get two extra attacks per round if I dual-wield two speed weapons?

No. The benefits of speed are not cumulative with similar effects, and "a second speed weapon" is a similar effect.
posted June 2013

FAQ wrote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists: If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an amulet with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?

No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).
posted July 2011

Liberty's Edge

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Each natural attack is a different weapon.
Maezer way is reasonable, but generally one of Pathfinder goals is to reduce bookkeeping for variable effects.
With that in mind I think that it is not meant to work with multiple natural attacks.

Liberty's Edge

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Rub-Eta wrote:
Speaker for the Dead wrote:
Or use the co-operative crafting rules. As long as one person on the crafting team has the spell it's ok.
No. Personal ranged spells can still not be made into potions.

He wasn't suggesting to bypass the personal range limit, he was suggesting to bypass the "not on the alchemist list" limit.

Liberty's Edge

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"Touch" refer to the kind of AC you target, you know, not to the range.

PRD wrote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.

Melee/ranged define the range.

If you want to discuss rules you should learn how some term has different meaning in different contexts.
Trams like touch, level and a few others are used with different meaning in different sections fo the rules.

Liberty's Edge

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Chess Pwn is right. The damage stack. Then when you attack you use your abilities, and those include the ability to deal sneak attack to a target with conceal but not full concealment.

Liberty's Edge

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eriktd wrote:


Consider this from the other way, perhaps. Suppose a magus casts scorching ray using the Close Range magus arcana. Do we agree that this does not make the spell a touch spell simply because it changes the ranged touch attack to a melee touch attack?
PRD wrote:
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.

What it say? "as melee touch spells".

Yes, it make them touch spells. You lose the ability to affect multiple targets and you don't provoke for making a ranged attack.

Liberty's Edge

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When you cast a spell normally you do a single caster level check against all targets SR. I would say that if a target has different spell resistances, you still make a single caster level check to bypass them and apply it against all the resistances.

Liberty's Edge

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:


The formula is below.

D = R * arccos(R/(R + h))

D is the approximate distance to the horizon, R is radius of the planet in question and h is height of the observer.

Some things that will effect this is how close the planet is to a perfect sphere and the opacity of the air.

A Wizard with a high enough intelligence and a Knowledge (Enginneering) skill would be able to derive the necessary knowledge enough to give an "objective" destination from his current point in space as a point of reference.

Just do the math, really. Once that is done, you have a fixed destination and layout of empty air is no different than the layout directly around the caster.

That is an interesting way of interpreting the spell. It makes teleport considerably more powerful than my own interpretation.

I think I would be okay with using your method for interplanetary teleportation but not for regular teleport or greater teleport.

Interplanetary teleportation require the 9th level spell

Interplanetary Teleport

Liberty's Edge

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KunoichiSong wrote:
First of all, provided that I do not cast a spell for the entire day after making the Familiar hold a spell, could I make a familiar hold onto a Touch spell until the next day?

Ask your GM. I wouldn't allow it to hold the spell so long without accidentally touching something.

Remember, an accidental touch discharge the held spell.

KunoichiSong wrote:


Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?

No, it is a ranged spell when launched and should immediately resolved as such.

Liberty's Edge

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Shadowlord wrote:
...also seems to be a completely new class of abilities...

Fully agree with that.

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Okay so what happens if you want to teleport to 1,000 feet above a town they have visited once? Does it make any difference if they were in the town when the sky was clear but now the sky is stormy?

1.000' seem relatively close to a well know point, so:

The teleporting guy has seen the town from 1.000' in the air?
If not false destination/never seen.
Seen once? "Viewed once".

A stormy sky shouldn't make a difference if you are using the "Viewed once" line.
If you have seen the town several times from that vantage point bad weather conditions could move the conditions to a worse row.

So "very familiar" could move to "studied carefully" if you are teleporting at night or with a light mist, to "seen casually" during a violent storm and to "viewed once" during an hailstorm that is breaking tiles and flash flooding the streets.
A whirlwind uprooting or demolishing houses could change it to "false destination".

There is no absolute rules, mine are personal opinions, not official rules.

Liberty's Edge

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:


That seems like a reasonable interpretation. How do you decide whether a caster can accurately define a point of reference? Also, how do you decide on the chance of success?

I probably would base it on how clear would be the reference if I were to navigate there physically in real life without a GPS or a map and doing some calculation.

"800 meters in that direction" I can get within 50 meters from the intended target.

"8.000 meters" and my error probably will be in the half kilometer range.

"80 Km ..." the error would be horrible.

"50 m above the rock that resemble a stag" is ok.

"5 km south of the hamlet of Ham" and the error go up. It is the center of the hamlet? from the church? Etc.

The difference in the quality of the destination description will affect how well know is the target area for the destination purpose, and I would allow it only if the teleporting guy already has seen the area.

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For me instead the meandering path don't count for anything. What matter is the end effect. You are using a magic item to cast a SLA. And using a magic item to cast a spell, in my opinion, don't count for a feat prerequisite.
If you remove the magic item you can't cast it, so it isn't an inherent ability.
The enhancement from belts and headbands, instead, is explicitly part of the character permanent abilities (see the glossary).
From my point of view you need an explicit permission to count something coming from a magic item as part of your character inherent abilities.

Our positions are too far apart to be resolved without an intervention from the PDT.

Liberty's Edge

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mishima wrote:
Surprised this hasn't come up with me before, but since wizards and other prep casters are allowed to leave slots open to prepare later, would they be able to prepare slots they obtain from gaining a level during the day?

No. Most of your abilities "charge" through 8 hours of sleep or (for divine spellcasters) at a specific time of the day plus whatever form of preparation you use.

Even if your potential maximum number of spells increase later on the day (as an example, by donning a more powerful Headband of Vast Intelligence), your new slots aren't charged, so you can't fill them.

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Many of the Paizo modules don't give enough gear or gold for players that don't die. I like the method of new characters starting at lower levels, but the GM needs to adjust the loot to reflect the suggested gold per character level for fresh characters. Especially when players are getting lots of loot that no one wants or can use, so it's being sold at half value. Consumeable items shouldn't grossly impair the party by making the overall loot diminish.

I also highly recommend low level random encounters so lowby members of the party have chances to gain xp while facing enemies of their level. Side quests are also a good option when the party just isn't up to the next part of the module or when new characters need to build comradery with the surviving party.

Modules generally are fairly generous, AP a bit less, but they still give approximately enough for the appropriate WBL +20/30% for expendables.

You will have some problem with WBL if:
- you have more than 4 characters in the group;
- you miss some of the loot (sometime that can be a problem, as some loot is well hidden or require a behavior that is inappropriate for your class or alignment.

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:


I don't allow teleportation to fluid locations like patches of sky or bodies of water. I figure you can't visualise something that is constantly changing and teleport is a powerful enough spell without that extra functionality.

I agree with Boomerang. Teleportation say "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." A patch in the sky don't seem to fulfill that request.

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Quantum Steve wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Thaine wrote:


Question 2:
A level 1 wizard gets a wand of fly with 50 charges. Does the wand allow the wizard to put points in the fly skill?

Does the answer change if it was a rogue with a high use mage device skill?

PRD wrote:
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).

"Every day" id different from "for a limited period", even if that period is relatively long (like 50 days for a fully charged wand of fly).

Winged boots or other similar items that can be used every day? Fine, you can take the fly skill. Something with a limited number of charges: you can't.

Note that as a GM I would ask the player to spend his daily use of the ability at some time during the day, either while adventuring or before going to bed.
I wouldn't require a spellcaster to memorize fly every day, but memorizing it and using it most of the days would be required.

If the group has a long period of downtime I would allow it off screen. I would even allow the rogue to learn the fly skill by buying at least 2 fully charged wands of fly and training for 3 months, or by paying the daily casting of fly for 3 months. Sadly in most campaign 3 months of downtime aren't common. With a cost of 16,000 gp for the boots and 11,250 gp for a fully charged wand, the boots are way better.

Essentially. ask your GM.

What's the functional difference between casting Fly not every day, but most days, to fly around for a few minutes and using a wand of Fly not every day, but most days, to fly around for a few minutes? Both characters have spent exactly the same amount of time flying.

If you require downtime training for skills, that one thing, but making a Rouge train for 3 months flying for 5 min per day to learn fly, but not making a Wizard train for the same 5...

The rules say that you need to have a way to fly every day so RAW a wand will never do.

I, as a GM, will be a bit more lenient, allowing it after a long period of training even if you don't have a way to do it every day after the training period (if you have read everything I wrote, I said: " I would even allow the rogue to learn the fly skill by buying at least 2 fully charged wands of fly and training for 3 months, or by paying the daily casting of fly for 3 months.").

With a pair of winged boots (or several other items, included the glider that BNW cited) you can get the same result without the need of a long training time.
The reason of the long training time is that the character that is using a item with limited charges will do that only for a limited period, while the guys with a way to fly daily will do it off or on screen for their whole career.

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Thaine wrote:


Question 2:
A level 1 wizard gets a wand of fly with 50 charges. Does the wand allow the wizard to put points in the fly skill?

Does the answer change if it was a rogue with a high use mage device skill?

PRD wrote:
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).

"Every day" id different from "for a limited period", even if that period is relatively long (like 50 days for a fully charged wand of fly).

Winged boots or other similar items that can be used every day? Fine, you can take the fly skill. Something with a limited number of charges: you can't.

Note that as a GM I would ask the player to spend his daily use of the ability at some time during the day, either while adventuring or before going to bed.
I wouldn't require a spellcaster to memorize fly every day, but memorizing it and using it most of the days would be required.

If the group has a long period of downtime I would allow it off screen. I would even allow the rogue to learn the fly skill by buying at least 2 fully charged wands of fly and training for 3 months, or by paying the daily casting of fly for 3 months. Sadly in most campaign 3 months of downtime aren't common. With a cost of 16,000 gp for the boots and 11,250 gp for a fully charged wand, the boots are way better.

Essentially. ask your GM.

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Vatras wrote:

Your negative result comes from the fact that the -5 hp/negative level are higher than the average 4.5 from the d8 HD.

I believe that you should have at least 1 hp/HD left, but it can be read as if you could be killed that way...or put into a coma.

That limit exist if your constitution score change, but not for constitution damage, as it don't change the score.

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Someone want to make a FAQ out of this? We have two strongly polarized camps and only a FAQ would resolve the issue.

@Darksol: even if a VC has approved adding Heroism as a second level spell in a ring it don't prove much. VC are experienced GMs, but they make errors as all other human beings. If you read the Society section of the forums you will see plenty of examples.

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I think there are at least 3 FAQ:

Direct access to spells or spell like abilities trough feats count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(Almost certainly yes, barring very specific wording of the prerequisite requirements)

Having a item that give access to spells or spell like abilities count as meeting a prerequisite for feats?
Almost certainly no)

Indirect access to spells or spell like abilities trough a feat, like Teleportation Mastery(Item Mastery, that require a specific item or class of items to work count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(I think not, others think yes, that is the whole point of this thread)

And those FAQs can be repeated changing feat prerequisites to prestige class prerequisites.

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Saldiven wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Because it's not just about making something taste bad, or cooking it too long. It's about handling the knife poorly. About bumping into people, and pretending you don't hear the "music of the kitchen". It's about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and pretending that you don't know where to look to find an ingredient, or pretending you don't even know what the ingredients are.

In my mind, to my somewhat-trained eye, the difference between watching a professional chef pretending to be bad and a true novice would be palpable and obvious. But it's because I know my way around a kitchen.

How is a non-trained chef going to recognize any of that?

The average person has no idea whether or not you're handling the knife poorly if all you do is slow down. The average person has no idea what you mean by "music of the kitchen."

I stand by my earlier assertion that Bluff might work in some cases, but in a case where a person is trying to demonstrate lack of knowledge or ability at a profession, the more appropriate skill to tell is that very same skill.

A trained chef can tell when another trained chef is sandbagging, while the average person would have a significantly more difficult time.

When you are peeling the potatoes and you leave more potato on the peel than on the part you keep people see that you are misusing a knife.

Plenty of other similar examples.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

James Risner has it right. They're the same spell. If I perform a Spellcraft check to identify Heroism being cast, then I shouldn't get two different results. It's either Heroism, or not Heroism. It can't be both, or some inane, yet almost identical result.

**EDIT** Posted too soon. Whoops.

PRD wrote:
Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level

Actually the Bard version is easier to identify.

And:
PRD wrote:
Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music).

Not relevant to Heroism, but that make some bard spell different.

The spells are different for some thing, identical for others. Until we get a official list of the thinks in which they are different it is the job of the GM to decide.
This GM think that for a ring of spell knowledge they are different.

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_Ozy_ wrote:

The wizard can't supply a level 2 Heroism spell because when he casts it, he must use a level 3 slot.

If he is supplied with a level 2 Heroism spell source, such as from the bard, then he can scribe the scroll using that source.

Stone shape is a level 4 wizard spell, and a level 3 cleric spell.

If the cleric uses scribe scroll to make a scroll of stone shape, what level is it? What about if the wizard does it?

Not sure what you mean be 'breaking', there is no breaking involved.

So the two spells aren't identical and my initial argument stand.

You can't support both position, either they are identical for all purposes or they aren't identical.

_Ozy_ wrote:
James Risner wrote:

Reading words not there is as bad as inserting words not there.

We understand from context that if the spell isn't the same as a spell on their class spell list, you add a level. A 2nd Bard Heroism isn't the same as a 3rd Sorcerer Heroism.

If you ignore context (and most all of the FAQ answers are compensating for ignored context), then you might conclude no level adjust.

If you consider context, you add 1 level to the 2nd Bard spell because Sorcerers don't have 2nd version of Heroism on their list.

What are you talking about? There is no such spell called "2nd level Heroism", there is a spell called "Heroism", and various casters can cast it at various levels.

Both Bards and Sorcerers have the exact same spell on their class lists, that's why they can use spell completion to use wands crafted by the other person.

It's the same exact spell.

Given your first sentence, I really don't understand why you think 'context' means inventing words that aren't there. Heck, you've completely changed the magic system if you are claiming that a Bard's Heroism is not the same spell as a Sorcerer's Heroism. You just broke it.

So now they are again identical in all respects? Choose a position or admit that they are not always identical, please.

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_Ozy_ wrote:


It just doesn't work that way. Your haste example is not a good one as you can get haste effects from different spells as well as magic items.

Darksol example. And he forgot that bonus of the same kind don't stack, regardless of the source. so 2 heroism effects can't stack as the bonuses are all morale bonuses.

_Ozy_ wrote:
It's not only counterspelling, it's spell completion and spell trigger items.

Ok.

_Ozy_ wrote:


If you had a bard supplying the level 2 heroism spell, sure you could make a Level 2 Heroism scroll.

If it is exactly the same spell, what stop a wizard from scribing a scroll of Heroism level 2?

Limitations of scribe scroll:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."

So if Heroism level 2 bard = Heroism level 3 wizard, why the wizard can't write either versions? or make a wand of either versions?

If they are different we have problems with spell completion and spell trigger items use and with counterspelling.

Either way we have to houserule as something break.

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N N 959 wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


You keep dwelling on that phrase. My use of it is just because although I do believe it is against the rules as a technicality, I also think that reasonable GMs would allow it in most situations. So I'd consider it a blue law in respect for the rules.

I understand. I am simply trying to make the counter-point that when we examine the rules with a magnifying glass and focus on being hyper-technical about what the rules allow and don't allow, the rules allow it.

Think of it this way:

- We both agree that two characters should be able to swap places in a round given some combination of actions.
- You're pointing out that the technical and limited nature of the rules would actually prohibit this.
- I'm pointing out that if you truly get technical, to an absurd level, the rules allow it.

They can do it, what they can't do is to do that while both using a 5' step to move.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Please tell me you're not serious. PLEASE tell me you're not seriously saying that the Heroism from a Bard and the Heroism from a Wizard are not the same thing.

If so, then I can stack Haste from a Summoner and Haste from a Sorcerer all day long, because you're telling me they're not the same spell. Or other "same source" abuse, which is clearly not intended.

PRD wrote:
Multiple haste effects don't stack.

It don't care about the source of the haste effect.

The counterspell argument is a good point, but then we get the opposite point: if they are exactly the same spell, a wizard can make a scroll of Heroism, level 2 spell?
After all if they are exactly the same spell and he has his version of heroism memorized he is fulfilling the crafting requirement when he make the scroll.

Or the same wizard can copy a bard made scroll of heroism level 2 in his spellbook? And what version of the spell he will write, the level 3 version that is in his spell list or a level 2 version that he can't memorize?

As often happen the situation isn't back or white, but nuanced.

When making a scroll, making a potion, putting a spell in a ring of spell storing, learning a spell from a scroll and (I feel) using the ring of spell knowledge, the list from which the spell is coming matter.

For counterspelling it shouldn't matter.

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N N 959 wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


That said, I also think it is very technically against the rules. There are feats for this, if you want to do it within the rules.

"Technically" it's not against the rules.

1. The rules unequivocally state that you cannot end your movement in an illegal space.

2. Technically, the rules don't stop you from beginning a move into an occupied space, the rules stop you from ending your move in an occupied space.

3. Technically, the readied action allows D to interrupt T after T has started moving into D's square, but before T stops moving.

4. Technically T is in D's square but D moves into T's vacated square before T ends T's movement because that's exactly what the Readied action can do, as demonstrated by interrupting spell casters after they start casting the spell, but before they complete it. It is the very example of using the Readied Action to disrupt a spell that allows us to technically swap places be having D move before T technically stops moving.

Technically, the rules allow this. GMs can ignore this technicality and invent rules like claiming that trying to move into an occupied space is illegal, because technically, there is no rule that states this. This action does not duplicate the feat. The feat allows D to swap places by expending an immediate action while retaining full movement. Without the feat, D has to use a Standard action and cannot move beyond the 5' step.

Technically there isn't a time in which T square is empty but he hasn't moved in D square.

So all you argument is invalid.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.

Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).

Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.

The level bump only applies if it's not on your spell list. Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list, just as a 3rd level spell. It doesn't matter if it's on his list as a 4th level spell, 5th level spell, or even a 10th level spell (which is impossible, but still); if it's on his list of spells he can learn as a Sorcerer, then the level bump for storage or casting requirement from not being on his spell list would not apply. Full stop.

The ultimate question stems from whether he would cast it at a spell level it's cast as (in the case of Heroism, Haste, etc.), or if it defaults to what his spell level is if he already has it on his spell list.

**EDIT**

@ Gilfalas: As Ferious Thune states, spells like Cure X Wounds do appear on the Bard and Witch spell list, so you could learn up to Cure Serious Wounds as a 4th level spell from the ring, but it's not particularly worth it. Which is why I was more curious about things like being able to cast Haste or Heroism as a 2nd level spell, and not having a level bump because the spells are still on your spell list.

A little cheap and munchkin-y, though being able to apply sweet buffs sooner, at the cost of ~6,000 gold, spell slots, and a valued Ring slot, should be a fair trade...

No Darksol, a spell isn't simply "Heroism", it is its full description.

Heroism - level 2 bard spell is different from Heroism - level 3 wizard spell and Cure light wound level 1 bard is different from Cure light wound level 1 cleric. Sometime they even have different components.

If you have a ring os spell storing, minor, you can put a bard heroism with a CL of 4 and a Bard clw with a Cl of 1 in it or a wizard heroism with a CL of 5.
Those spells use the same description for space reasons, but they are different spells in different lists.

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N N 959 wrote:
Numarak wrote:

Declaring something that you can not do is either not legal or has not effect.

If a turtle falls over a cliff, and declares she flies, the GM should say 'Ok." and she will keep falling. The same way, if a character declares she moves into someone's square, as that is not a valid option of movement, she will move as much as the falling turtle flew, nothing.

That's a disanalogy. An accurate analogy is the turtle flaps its arms and then suddenly finds it can fly. T initiates a 5' step into D's square. Before T's movement ends, the square is unoccupied. Nothing illegal happens.

Numarak wrote:
To accomplish the "Swap places" feat, get the Feat

The feat is not simply for swapping places. 1 - the ally moves as an "immediate" action, and 2 - the movement doesn't count against the ally's movement for that round. Neither of these is true without the feat.

Just as the Two-Weapon fighting feat isn't needed to fight with two weapons, the Swap Places feat is not needed to swap places, it simply allows you to do it with less cost/penalty.

If D space is empty before T move end, T starting square is not empty has T hasn't yet moved from it.

2 characters 2 occupied spaces.

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cuatroespada wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Movement, not turn!
Nobody ends their movement in an occupied square. That's already been covered. There is no rule that says a character can't initiate movement into an illegal square. RAW says you can't "end movement." If you want to be hyperpedantic, then the rules work against you.
You read "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" as a permission of moving in a illegal square. You are really incredible.
as far as i know, there is nothing that stops you from declaring your intent to move into a square that is currently occupied if you know that it won't be when you get there. it, admittedly, gave me pause, but unless you can cite the RAW that forbids it, it's legal.

You need a RAW that say that you can't voluntarily move to a invalid square?

The checks is simple:
- when you move the target square is a valid square for teh kind of move you are takin?
- reply: No, it is not a valid target for a 5' step as it is occupied. It is a valid target for the first square of a regular move as you can continue your movement after entering it.

Look how it work:
D take a 5' step in T square
T has a readied action to move in T square as soon as it is empty
D complete its 5' step, verify if the movement is valid, it isn't, and he is moved back to his starting square
Even if T has a readied action to move to D square as soon as it is empty, that square become empty only after D 5' step has been completed, but the completion of D move is the check if he end his movement in a valid square, so D starting square is never empty.

Now bot D and T go to D starting square

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PRD wrote:

A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.

Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).

Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.

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N N 959 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Movement, not turn!
Nobody ends their movement in an occupied square. That's already been covered. There is no rule that says a character can't initiate movement into an illegal square. RAW says you can't "end movement." If you want to be hyperpedantic, then the rules work against you.

You read "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" as a permission of moving in a illegal square. You are really incredible.

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N N 959 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


RAW don't allow it and my common sense say that you can't do it without provoking unless you have some specific training i.e. the appropriate teamwork feat).
Switching you position with another person while fighting with someone isn't easy at all. common sense say that, differently from our characters, people don't have 360° vision, so checking your ally position and movement expose you to your enemy attacks.

None of this is based on RAW, so you're entitled to your opinion.

But for the record, athletes in team sports frequently swap positions in less than 50 square feet of space, it's called switching a screen in basketball and that happens in less than a 10' square. Football defensive line men perform"stunts" in which they swap places after the ball is snapped. The corresponding offensive linemen sometimes do the same swap. So common sense says it's not an issue for trained soldiers. You don't need 360 degree vision to hear/feel/sense someone is behind you. Characters don't fill up a 5'x5' square, they tactically control it. So T has plenty of room with which to enter D's square unless D is a gelatinous cube, proven by the fact that I can move through an ally occupied square without issue, regardless of what direction I am approaching or whether the ally is engaged in combat.

A playing field is "a little" more safe than a battlefield and way smoother, but players are still tripping, losing the ball or having it stolen. And how many hours of training they do playing together exactly those moves? That is special training in doing exactly that. Most team players have the equivalent of several teamwork feats.

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O'Mouza wrote:

So... by the rules:

1) Two PC in a closed room 10x5 can't swap their place. They will be forever in the square they are in the beginning. Right?

You miss a few words: "During combat", "without any way to leave the room" and "without provoking".

The right phrase is:

"During combat Two PC in a closed room 10x5 without any way to leave the room can't swap their place. They will be forever in the square they are in the beginning."

The question is who or what they are figthing. A swarm?

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N N 959 wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:
right; a GM can allow something the rules as written don't allow... but that doesn't change that RAW there is no way to do what you're talking about. a GM can rule that it's fine, but anything that goes back to rule 0 is a thing you can expect table variation on.

The rules do allow it. I'll repeat the steps that are 100% RAW.

D readies a backward 5' step before T attacks E.

T takes a 5' step and then attacks E.

D's readied action is triggered after T's 5's step, but before T actually attacks.

Neither character ends their turn in an occupied square.

PRD wrote:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

Movement, not turn!

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Melkiador wrote:
You just ready to 5 foot step into your ally's square when he leaves his square. Then your ally begins a move through your square, then your readied action resolves and the ally chooses to end his move in your old square as a 5 foot step.

You can't decide that your move action is a 5' step after starting it as a move action.

And you can't start a 5' step if it put you in a invalid square.

You can move only 5' with a move action, but it is still a move action.

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N N 959 wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:

no, the point is RAW does not allow this, but we can all agree that any GM enforcing that is being overly pedantic.

edit: see my last post before this one for phrasing to satisfy such a GM.

RAW does allow the swap. Insisting on interpreting the rules in a way that imposes discontinuity when one would not logically exist is in violation of designers stating that the rules are to be interpreted with "common sense."

D readies an action to move before T attacks. T takes a 5' step and attacks. Neither character finishes their turn in an occupied square.

RAW don't allow it and my common sense say that you can't do it without provoking unless you have some specific training i.e. the appropriate teamwork feat).

Switching you position with another person while fighting with someone isn't easy at all. common sense say that, differently from our characters, people don't have 360° vision, so checking your ally position and movement expose you to your enemy attacks.

As was said be a few posters D would have to leave his square before T can step in it. And D can't end his move in D square he can't take a 5' step (AFAIK you can't take a 5' step in an invalid location on the basis of "but special circumstances will make it a valid location after I have moved"). So, unless there it another valid square he would have to start a normal move, so that he can reach a square behind D (if he take a 5' step he end his move in a invalid square and return immediately to the starting square).
After he has vacated his starting square T can take his readied action of "when D square is empty I take a 5' step to fill it (eventually together with a standard action)".
That action interrupt but don't end D movement, so after T has make his 5' step he can complete his movement in the square he prefer.

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Snowlilly wrote:

Fighter Training says magus counts as having fighter levels for feat acquisition. The question I have is, does the magus also count as having fighter levels for resolving how those feats function. This was an irrelevant question prior to the Armor Mastery guide, but becomes relevant with the introduction of feats that scale according to fighter level.

In the more general, with the purpose of clarifying how newly introduced rules mechanics interact with preexisting class features not specifically addressed in the newly introduced mechanics.

If a class ability states a character counts as another class of level X for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites, does the character also count as level X for purposes of determining the effects of those feats.

From Armor Master's handbook.

Armor Mastery feats - general rule wrote:
Armor mastery feats are a new type of feat that require armor training as a prerequisite. They count as combat feats for all purposes, including which classes can select them as bonus feats. You gain the benefits of an armor mastery feat only while wearing armor with which you are proficient and only while wearing a type of armor that matches the feat’s armor proficiency feat prerequisite, if any. Armor mastery feats without armor proficiency prerequisites can be used while wearing any suit of armor. Characters who lack the armor training class feature can access armor mastery feats by taking the Armor Focus feat, presented below.

That say no.

On the other hand I don't recall a Paizo product called "Armor Mastery guide", so maybe I am missing something.

Checking the feats in the Armor Master's handbook I don't see any feat that has an effect that change based on the fighter level of a character. Can you link, or paste an example?

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wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

If one wants to be pedantic the item casting the spell means you still get to do stuff, but we know that is not going to fly if the PDT steps in. The items is the one supplying the spell, and you are still going to get stuck with the penalties associated with it. You do not qualify for.

Staves have a similar affect. They allow the user to activate a spell, while not being the actual caster, and he is still stuck with any penalties such as losing his movement after using DD. He can not however use the staff to qualify for any feats since he is only activating an item.

Otherwise someone(fighter, rogue, etc) could get a staff with arcane and divine spells and qualify for Mystic Theurge(Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.)

If we want to be pedantic that way, you use the action to activate the item, but then it has to act to cast the spell ....

So, when is the item turn?
What is initiative modifier (generally items don't have a dexterity stat, so - should be treated as dex 10 or dex 0?
How do it know where you want to go (most items have no intelligence)?
Etc.

Are you saying Paizo intended for staves to let you qualify for prestige classes?

No, that if someone try to use the pedantic reading that it is the item that cast the spell, so the character won't lose the rest of his turn, I would use the pedantic reading that the item would use its initiative and not that of the character, as it is the item than act.

The character use his action to force the item to obey him, but the item act at its initiative.
Both interpretations are false, but sometime it is worth pointing out the effect of this king of twisted reading of the rules get you.

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The spell count at its modified level for the wand cost and maximum spell level capability.

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Frosty Ace wrote:

So really the argument is "casting" vs creation of a spell through your own will power, because without you the effect would otherwise be impossible (As in a bard can't grab your ring or sword and do it), and at your will you can make the spell whenever you want (With limits, no different from any wizard or monk).

Am I close? I understand the reasoning, since RAW is God (Praise Shield Master, am I right?), but for it to not allow a selection of the Dimensional feats means that the character isn't casting it, but you want to impose restrictions because they're casting it, but still not casting it enough for the feat pre requisite, which is going both the route of going RAW and ignoring RAW.

Then there's RAI, which, I mean... I'm sure the intention is to have the character casting a spell, right? If the DC is relative to the character, if ever there is one, then the character is casting a spell, unlike say drinking a potion or using a wand. Unless there are instances of stats effecting a DC and it not being because of the character...?

D20PRD wrote:

Teleportation Mastery (Item Mastery)

The gadget spec URL could not be found

You can coax teleportation from conjuration magic items.

Prerequisite(s): Use Magic Device 4 ranks, base Fortitude save bonus +6.

Benefit(s): You can cause an item that has a conjuration spell of 3rd level or higher in its construction requirements to cast dimension door.

You can use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at base Fortitude save bonus +9 and +12.

PRD wrote:

Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

The character with Teleportation Mastery has the ability to cast Dimension door? If you rule that a wand of Dimension door and enough ranks in UMD to activate it count as being able to cast dimension door, you should count Teleportation Mastery as being able to cast dimension dor, if you think that having a wand and UMD isn't enough, Teleportation Mastery isn't enough too.

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cuatroespada wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.
though they do have a spell list. the implement is basically a focus requirement, isn't it?
PRD wrote:

Spells: An occultist casts psychic spells drawn from the occultist spell list, limited by the implement groups he knows. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every occultist spell has an implement component (see Implements). To learn or cast a spell, an occultist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an occultist's spell equals 10 + the spell level + the occultist's Intelligence modifier.

An occultist can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the Occultist progression table. In addition, he gains bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

The occultist's selection of spells is limited. For each implement school he learns to use, he can add one spell of each level he can cast to his list of spells known, chosen from that school's spell list. If he selects the same implement school multiple times, he adds one spell of each level from that school's list for each time he has selected that school. When the occultist learns to cast a new level of spells, he immediately adds one spell of that level to his list of spells known from each implement school he knows (plus any extra spells from schools he has selected multiple times).

At 5th level and every 3 occultist levels thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), an occultist can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the occultist loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level occultist spell the occultist can cast. The spell learned must come from the same list of spells provided by the implement school of the spell lost. An occultist can swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for that level.

An occultist need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

. . . . .

Implements (Su): At 1st level, an occultist learns to use two implement schools. At 2nd level and every 4 occultist levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional implement school, to a maximum of seven schools at 18th level. Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist's spell list. No spells from any other school are considered to be on the occultist's spell list until he selects the associated implement school. He can't use spell trigger or spell completion magic items from unknown schools without succeeding at the appropriate Use Magic Device check. An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Each implement school is represented by a small list of objects. Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows. The occultist needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school. Implements don't need to be magic items, and nonmagical implements don't take up a magic item slot even if they're worn. Implements that are not magic items are often of some historical value or of personal significance to the occultist, such as the finger bone of a saint, the broken scepter of a long-dead king, the skull of a mentor's familiar, or the glass eye of an uncanny ancestor.

Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect. This act is part of casting the spell and doesn't require any additional action. If the occultist lacks the corresponding implement, he can attempt to cast the spell, but must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 20 + the spell's level) to do so. Spells cast by an occultist without the appropriate implement are always treated as if they were cast at the minimum caster level for the spell in question (caster level 1st for a 1st-level spell, caster level 4th for a 2nd-level spell, and so on).

Each implement school also grants a base focus power. This power is added to the list of focus powers possessed by the occultist (see Mental Focus below). In addition, each implement school grants access to a number of other focus powers that the occultist can select from using his mental focus class feature.

See the Implement Schools section for a complete list of implements associated with each school and their focus powers.

You learn the spells based on the implement school you choose and you can cast them even without the implement.

So no, the implement don't impart the ability to cast a spell, as you said, it is simply a focus item.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Act as a SLA =/= you have a SLA

The former explain how it work, the latter say you have it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gilfalas wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

If you have taken a feat but it don't work because you have lost a prerequisite you can't use it as a prerequisite.

As an example, let's say that your strength is 11 but you had a belt Belt of Giant Strength +2 and took Power attack.
Now you have lost the belt, power attack is inactive until your strength value again increase to 13+ and you can't take any feat that require power attack as a prerequisite.

So 'non-intinsic' attribute points are ok to use to qualiy for feats but 'non-intrinsic' feats are not?

I use non intrinsic to mean attribute points or feats that you can have for long term but are not actually permanent in the same sense that base stats, level up stat increases or Inherent bonuses are. Or like feats chosen at character level up.

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Ability score increases that last more than a day count as permanent increases unless you actually lose them.

It is the same as being reincarnated in a weaker race. You were an human and your strength had a permanent value of 13, but you have been reincaranted in a halfling and now your strength score is 11. You lose access to power attack until your strength score go up.

Before the reincarnation you had a permanent score, after it you have a different permanent score.

Your feat is permanent? You can use it as a prerequisite, it isn't, you can't.
Even a feat can be lost, thank to retraining, losing access to it for score changes and so on, but it is still permanent as long as you have access to it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you have taken a feat but it don't work because you have lost a prerequisite you can't use it as a prerequisite.

As an example, let's say that your strength is 11 but you had a belt Belt of Giant Strength +2 and took Power attack.
Now you have lost the belt, power attack is inactive until your strength value again increase to 13+ and you can't take any feat that require power attack as a prerequisite.

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