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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 10,341 posts (10,900 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 7 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Yeah, Empathy should have been an alternate racial trait or something.

Actually you can do some interesting trick if it is a feat that you can't do if it is a racial trait and still require cha 13.

To get the feat you need cha 13, but that can be achieved trough a headband of alluring charisma. And if you get it by using a magic item you can deactivate it by removing it. Taht should remove both the benefit and penalty.

Liberty's Edge

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As the title say, some people think it is not necessary to maintain a grapple to be able to rake or use other abilities that require you to have a grapple to use them if they are a free action.

There are a few example in that thread.

Who agree with that?

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FAQ wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?

You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.

Always singular, like the text in the ability description.

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: If I use spell combat, how many weapon attacks can I make?

You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon. For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1), you could make two weapon attacks when using spell combat.

Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that spell combat did not allow the extra attack from haste (because spell combat was not using the full attack action).

"That weapon", not weapons.

Conclusive evidence? Not at all, but that is a problem of the description of the kasatha race, not of the magus. Simply the rules are written for a race with 2 hands, and the kasatha don't change that.

Note that the first FAQ seem to rule out natural weapons, too, so I would say that it limit you to only 1 weapon, regardless of the number of limbs you can use to attack.

Derek Dalton wrote:

Had this argument in another thread. Kasatha have an archtype where they can with hefty minus use two Longbows at once. It supports the theory they can use melee weapons in all four arms with the multiweapon feat. Our group ruled it but a lot of discussion on this site say otherwise. I as a GM allow a Kasatha to use all four arms since the design and intent of the race supports that concept.

An archetype allow you to do something outside the normal rules =/= the normal rule is what the archetype do.

What an archetype get as a special ability isn't an indication of what a character can normally do.

Honestly the kasatha race description is too short to be really clear on how it work. the bestiary example don't make multiple attacks, multy armed say "Multi-Armed (Ex) A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands." and that can be read both ways.

And for the hundredth time, please, read what the multiweapon feat do. It don't grant attacks, it only reduce the penalties.
Maybe Multi-Armed grant them, but having or lacking the multiweapon feat don't change that.

Liberty's Edge

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thorin001 wrote:
Calth wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Rake is a free action, and all are primary attacks, so technically you can rake (free action), release the grapple (free action, and then full attack (full round action). Some GMs may be offended by this, however.

Eh, while I see where you are getting that reading, that's most likely not what the rule means.

The relevant passage: In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.

The "in addition to" is referring to the actions you can make when maintaining a grapple, so I would read it as the rakes occurring as a free action as part of the maintaining action.

Free actions are discrete actions, not part of another action unless explicitly so stated. Drawing a weapon while moving is the only example I can think of that has a free action that is part of another action. Since neither rake nor grapple have such limiting language those free action rakes are not part of the grapple action; they are discrete.

Before you can rake you need to maintain the grapple.

If you don't maintain the grapple the target is released at the start of the turn.
You can't say "I will later try to maintain the grapple, so now I can rake", you need a confirmed grapple.
Similarly you can't move and move your target with you and then confirm the grapple. For that kind of actions you need to have already confirmed the grapple for that turn.

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Yes, you can make diamonds if you can make the appropriate skill check.
Now the problem is what is the appropriate check and the DC.

Probably it is something like a 400 DC profession Engineer skill check.
The appropriate tools add that +390 to the check that a good engineer need to make it in RL. But when you use magic you don't get the equipment bonus, so the skill check is almost impossible unless you have some huge bonus from some source.

Then there is what The Sideromancer said. Diamonds are hardness 10 on the Mhoss scale, but that only mean that they can scratch less hard materials, but that don't mean that they are hard to break.
To use common materials, glass has a hardness of 5.5, iron a hardness of 4. But if you use a hammer of glass on a piece of iron the glass hammer will probably shatter and the iron will surely suffer no damage.

A glass chain, while harder on the Mhos scale would be easy to break, a iron chain work way better.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I like how water is a lot of gold... blood of hells spawn? Negligible. Hilarious.
Not listed is not the same as negligible, which is the reason for the question.

Oh I absolutely agree. Same with celestial. Like the blood of angels is something everyone has for no cost?

I think the reason it's given no price is because the almost certain "my aasimar just bleeds into a bucket. Let's buy that armour!" Comes up.

A aasinmar is an outsider, but lack the good subtype.

A tiefling isn't a devil and don't get the devil subtype.

Both fail as material components for Infernal and Celestial healing.

Eh, that's debatable.

How it is debatable?

Aasimar Medium outsider (native) - no good subtype, required by the spell.
Tiefling Medium outsider (native) - no devil subtype, required by the spell.

There is nothing to debate, the requirements are clear.

Liberty's Edge

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wraithstrike wrote:
Belefauntes wrote:

So, I decided I didn't want to be pissed off on my birthday weekend, so I ignored further responses from the rules lawyers for the remainder of the weekend.

wraithstrike: Thankfully, I don't play PFS. My GM is being a little weird about the True Seeing thing, though. Allow me to explain: This weekend we encountered a group of holy NPCs (clerics and paladins) who had been tasked to "keep trespassers from entering these lands, lest they bring back the dark one." After smoothing things over, we discover they had a caged "witch" whom they were planning to take back to a nearby city for an exorcism. First I use Detect Magic... no results. Then I use Detect Evil. Minuscule traces of evil detected. Then I cast True Seeing. I see a sinister, shadowy presence surrounding, penetrating, and enveloping the "witch" (just an old gypsy who became possessed). With True Seeing active, I turn to my comrades to advise them of what I was seeing. My GM did not permit me to see through the illusions and transmutations concealing the vampire in our midst (which is CLEARLY within the parameters of the spell). Nor did he allow me to see the demons (plural) possessing two of our party members in a very similar fashion. Our party cleric also used the same spells and took the same actions, and he was limited in what he saw the same as I.

It would seem I'm only permitted to see what is true (including any effects influencing the "soul") if I am explicitly looking for them. That's frustrating, because I'm not going to always know when to look through an illusion or transmutation, let alone when to expressly look into someone's soul.

It seems as if the GM didnt want you to access certain information so he either ignored how the spell worked, which I think is unfair*, or he misunderstood that the illusion should have been a nonfactor.

*Sometimes this happens when GM's run things for higher level parties, and are not ready when they have an easy way to unravel whatever he has planned.

Or the demons/vampire have Mind blank and (maybe) Non detection.

I am not convinced that Non detection work against True seeing, but some GM think so.

Liberty's Edge

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:
SKR comments that you can't grapple something you can't hold — a gas. Elementals are not gaseous, and a person affected by Windy Escape is gaseous only briefly, which puts it in the realm of GM ruling as to whether that is sufficient to foil a grapple.
Great suggestion! As a GM I'd be inclined to allow it against grapples wholesale just to speed the game, keeping in mind that it's an immediate action to cast 'just' before the attack/grapple reaches you. Another way I'd consider is to make it a 50% miss chance on the grapple (akin to how Blink works), depending how my players feel about it (most of my players would prefer the former as it advantages the PCs).

I would easily agree that if you avoid all the damage from an attack a grapple/grab attempt fail, but only if you avoid all of it.

Windy escape don't give 100% protection from an attack, so it shouldn't give 100% protection from effects not listed in the spell description.

Liberty's Edge

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Nefreet wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
1) someone under the effects of gaseous form?

No.

Nefreet wrote:
2) an Air Elemental?
Yes.
These cannot be different answers.

Why? Because you are imposing your rules?

They can be different, they are different.

Gaseous form "a creature in gaseous form can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists.

Air elemental: that text don't exist.

Invisible Stalker: N Medium outsider (air, elemental, extraplanar)
i.e an air elemental is often summoned to retrieve objects.

Aerial Servant: Medium outsider (air, elemental, extraplanar)
Again, an air elemental, it has grab and constrict.

Belker: Large outsider (air, elemental, evil)
another air elemental
It [b]need[/b[] a special ability to become gaseous!

Quote:
Smoke Form (Su) A belker can switch from its normal form to one of pure smoke or back again a swift action. It can spend up to 20 rounds per day in smoke form. In smoke form, the belker acts as if under the effects of a gaseous form spell, except that it retains its natural fly speed of 50 feet (perfect).

So Paizo think that air elementals are solid. They need a special ability to take a non solid form.

Your problem is that you have decided unilaterally that air elementals aren't solid, while Pathfinder rules assume the opposite. so far you have been unable to prove that there is some rule supporting your position, while I have show several examples where air elementals need to be solid to do what they normally do.

Liberty's Edge

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Detect magic detect the aura of magic items and spells, the golems are creatures.

Liberty's Edge

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_Ozy_ wrote:
Unless storms are dramatically different in Pathfinder, was it historically common on sailing ships that riggers fell about once every two minutes during stormy ocean travel here on earth?

Captain Bligh: "Mister Fletcher, go help with the rigging."

A few rounds pass:
SPLAT!
End of the Mutiny on the Bounty.

A fine Monty Python sketch, not a block buster with Marlon Brando.

It was something I wanted to say for at least a couple of days.

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Ascalaphus wrote:
I suppose it's a workaround for various barbarian PCs too. 99.99% of all nice character art features barbarians in minimalist armor. The majority of barbarian PCs still try using real armor.

Fortunately I was wearing my armor

:-)

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I want to point out a different part of the FAQ Nefreet cited:

FAQ wrote:

Sleeves of Many Garments: Are the effects of sleeves of many garments illusion or transmutation?

The effects are illusion (glamer) like the glamered weapon and armor properties. This means they can’t be disbelieved like a figment could, but they do not actually physically change the clothes. The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects.

The FAQ explicitly say that they can't be disbelieved, so the OP question is resolved. There is risk of having the glamour discovered when a guard grab someone wearing a glamored armor as there is no way to disbelieve the effect.

With an appropriate perception check against the bluff of the person wearing the armor (or some other appropriate skill use) the guard can notice that there is something strange, like the person weighting too much, but that will not allow him to pierce the illusion, it will only make him suspicious.

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I "love" these posts where people try to say that some condition remove the reflex save to use them with the pit spells.
Unless something say it explicitly, nothing remove a reflex save.
Avoiding the pit spells require a reflex save, not a jump or move action.

Just to put out the opposite argument: the pit spells create a extra dimensional space. It don't lower the existing floor. The person hi by the tanglefoot bag is glued to the original floor.
So when the pit is created, what happen to the original floor?
a) it disappear, so the person is no more glued to it;
b) it is somewhat deformed in a forth dimensional space and go to form the border of the pit, so the glued person is glued outside the pit.
c) it go to form the floor of the pit and all stuff that is part of the floor go with it, so the glued creature don't take falling damage as he is moved together with the floor.

All the interpretation above are as credible as the interpretation "you are glued to the floor, so you can't get a reflex save, but when it is the time to fall being glued has no effect".

Saying "you get the normal save" is way simpler and less confusing.

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Let's try with another creature with multiple grab attacks and constrict:

Giant Crab CR 2

Typical values:
hp 20 AC 14 primary attack +4 secondary attack +3 average damage (for a creature with high damage) 10 Primary ability DC 13 Secondary 5 Best save 5 worst save 1

Giant Crab:
hp 19 AC 16 claws attack 4 average damage 18 Saves fort +5 Ref +2, Will +1

HP CR 2 AC CR 3 Attack CR 2 Damage CR 4 Saves Cr 2

With only 1 constrict:
Damage 13,5 CR 3

So for the crab the damage is "only" 2 CR above a typical exemplar of a CR 2 monster, but it has no value below that of a CR 2 monster in any field and the AC of a CR 3, so I think we can consider it a a powerful exemplar of a CR 2 monster with only 1 constrict, with two it move in the CR 3 field.

I think it has been demonstrated that the ability to do multiple constrict in a round is well worth a Cr increase.

feel free to suggest other creatures for this test.

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Sigh, why it has refreshed and deleted everything?

Let's check the Giant Octopus against a typical CR 8 monster

Typical values:
hp 100 AC 21 primary attack +15 secondary attack +11 average damage (for a creature with high damage) 35 Primary ability DC 19 Secondary 12 high save +11, low save +7

Giant octopus - CR 8:
hp 90 AC 18 bite 13 tentacles attack 11 average damage , 81,5 Poison DC 17 fort +11 Ref +12, Will +7

HP CR 7 AC CR 5 To hit, CR 8 Damage CR 17 Saves CR 8

Now the same but with only 1 constrict attack:

Giant octopus CR 8:
hp 90 AC 18 bite 13 tentacles attack 11 average damage , 50 Poison DC 17fort +11 Ref +12, Will +7

HP CR 7 AC CR 5 To hit, CR 8 Damage CR 11 Saves CR 8

The potential damage of a giant octopus that constrict with each attack is that of a CR 17 monster, constricting only once it is that of a CR 11 monster.

Ever assuming that its attack bonus will keep the damage down when it meet higher CR characters the damage is out of scale for a creature of its CR.

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Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Y there's always that pesky rule that says the DM is the final arbiter on how many free actions you can do in a round. ...
However, he better be constant on how many free actions he allows or else face mutiny.

Not at all. Free actions aren't a fixed number and the number of free actions allowed can vary greatly based on the kind of free action you want to perform.

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ChaosTicket wrote:


generally speaking I pick neutral so i play as I want, not forced into being something I dont want to be or into situations that would get me killed rather than follow common sense.

Sound more like CN.

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Claxon wrote:


Currently I'm playing in Hell's Vengeance, an evil aligned campaign and we have a party of 2 clerics of LE gods, and a Tyrant Antipaladin (among others). We haven't been mean to anyone, trying to resolve everything as amicably as we can (while still following the law). From the outside one might say we're being good, which would be a violation of my Antipaladins code. However, our GM understand that we're simply being nice because walking in and killing everyone isn't a very "good" plan. You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. Our goal is prevent rebellion and get people to willingly comply with the laws, not to rack up a body count. But our GM understand that we're playing intelligently and not being "nice".

You don't. :)

Catching flies

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There is no permission to take the action "jump" into the spell.
To jump you need:
1) to have at least 5' of movement, so if you have already moved your full movement you can't jump;
2) even if you have movement left you don't have the action to use it;
3) after a successful save you require people an acrobatic check to benefit from it, with a DC that go from 10 (5' jump with no running start) to 30 (15', if the only open space is at the other corner of the square).

So essentially you think that the simple phrase "jump to safety" mean that we should break a lot of rules about saves and acting when it isn't our turn.
The other interpretation is that it is simply descriptive text and don't mean to introduce new rule mechanics.

What is the more credible option?

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Sledgehammer wrote:

I have a Paladin's warhorse in PFS and it is a horse from the animal companion list with a advantage template.

A "Heavy horse" is distinctly different to a "Horse". In the same way a "small cat" is distinct to a "large cat". Check out the Bestiary. They very definitely different.

But it is different from an animal companion. If you get a heavy horse it isn't an animal companion and can't benefit from the divine bond.

You are applying the wrong set of stats.
Check with a VC, but you risk problems when you change tables if the §DM check your character sheet.

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You guys are trying to add an effect on a spell on a successful save.
The effects are very simple:

- Saving Throw Reflex negates
- Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space

Neither say "provoking an AoO"
Spells do what they say they do. Adding effects because you like to make them more powerful is a bad idea.

If your idea that "jump to safety" is some form of movement, a creature that has used all of its movement the previous turn can't make the save? It can't try it if it has used a 5' step? If it is unable to jump?
If it is unconscious? Helpless? Pinned?
None of the above negate the ability to try a reflex saving throw, albeit at high penalties. But they negate the ability to move.
So if we assume that "jump to safety" is a form of movement, de should suppose that you need to be able to move to try the save, something that contradict the rules.

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Quantum Steve wrote:

Ask your GM.

Many things aren't covered in the rules, so the GM has to decide on a ruling.

Different sources, Steve, so you kept them separated.

One is the weapon, one is the flaming effect, one is shocking grasp.

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Different kind of damages, with potentially different kind of resistances, aren't added together.
Each separate kind of damage is halved separately.

@vhok
You add only the kinds of damage that share the kind of damage of the weapon, like precision damage and sneak attack, separate kinds of damage are kept separated.

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PRD - Familiar wrote:


Monkey CR 1/4
N Tiny animal
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5

It is not a chimpanzee or a mandrill. It is one of the smallish versions, the kind you keep on your shoulder. It is neither strong enough or large enough to recharge a human sized crossbow.

While there aren't specific limits to the strength needed to recharge a crossbow, both the light and the heavy already require mechanical assistance. For a tiny animal using a human sized lever or crank would be problematic. Even a small version would be difficult to use.

BTW, no reach, so it has to be in the same square of the crossbow to reload it.

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_Ozy_ wrote:

Can you expand on the lesser Jabberwock example?

How does the 'weapon's damage dice', taken literally, make it useless?

Would you allow someone holding a charge of Vampiric Touch to use the vital strike feat?

The tactic suggested in the module for the lesser Jabberwock is to use it on the eye rays.

It work perfectly on its bite. The eye rays ... well, it all depend on your definition of "weapon's damage dice".

Vampiric touch is a problem. I see it as a touch attack that deliver 0 damage plus a rider. So the damage from the Vampiric touch spell wouldn't be multiplied by vital strike, like precision damage and other form of added damage aren't multiplied.

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PRD wrote:

Vital Strike (Combat)

You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

I don't see any "natural attack" requirement.

You are required to use an attack action. Not a weapon or natural attack. And you can take a attack action with any kind of attack.

The "weapon's damage dice", it taken literally, would make it useless, but there are a few creatures using energy attacks that benefit from it (at least reading their tactics in the modules). The lesser Jabberwock is an example.

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Ravingdork wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The black tentacles spell says that the tentacles deal damage with a successful check to maintain the grapple. It never really says that the tentacles let go if they fail the check though. So...are the victims only able to escape on their turn?

Uhhh, normally your questions are pretty good.

What happened today?

The word "maintain" doesn't even appear in the spell description. So it made me wonder if you even needed to make any such check.

It only talks about checks to deal damage, not to maintain. The spell also says creatures can't move until THEY can break the grapple. That implies that they can only break out on their turn, rather than the caster's turn.

I don't really see it as a poor question at all.

PRD wrote:

Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast.

...
The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling ...
PRD wrote:


Grapple

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.
...
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
...
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
...
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
...

You re grappling at straws, Rav.

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This is a AP that has always interested me.
I will think about what I want to do. Sadly the campaign guide is not available for download (I have the printed version), but here are the campaign trait from Herolab. The description is more complete than on D20PRD.

Earning Your Freedom
You’ve been a slave your whole life, and have passed from master to master more times than you can count. Some of those masters were cruel, others kindly. In all cases, you’ve yearned to be free. When your most recent master fell on hard times, he sold many of his slaves to the city government, and as luck would have it, a recent opportunity to earn your freedom has manifested. The Pactmasters of Katapesh are looking to revitalize an old trade route to Osirion, and a band of mercenaries and guards is gathering to go out and supplement forces already in place near the ruined village of Kelmarane, now said to be infested by gnolls. You’ve secured a place among those mercenaries, under the watchful eye of Garavel. If you help in retaking Kelmarane, you’ve been promised your freedom. In any event, your life as a slave has toughened you and made you more resistant to hardship.

Benefit: Choose one of the three categories of saving throw; you gain a +1 trait bonus on all saving throws of that type.

Finding Haleen
You never knew your parents—perhaps they died when you were a child, or maybe you were taken from them and raised elsewhere as a slave. You owe your sanity and your life to a woman named Haleen. She could be your sister or merely a childhood companion, but whatever your relationship to her, she took care of you and protected you. She’s always been a part of your life, and although her temper often kept her from making friends or keeping a job, she’s always been kind to you. Haleen was instrumental in securing your freedom from slavery or making sure you got a good apprenticeship or job in society—but recently, she’d been growing strangely morose and depressed. You and Haleen normally kept no secrets, but whatever was bothering her wasn’t something she shared with you. One night, she vanished, leaving you a brief note, begging you to forget her and to get on with your life, but something about the note bothered you—something in the way she phrased her words struck you as forced. You may be convinced she’d been kidnapped, forced to leave against her will, or even magically controlled, but you also suspect that she left you to protect you from something—that was ever her way. You’re now convinced that it’s time for you to step in and protect her, but you had no idea where she may have gone until recently. Several months have passed since she disappeared, and you’ve spent those months searching for clues to her location, and you’ve finally found a lead—a mysterious note, a strange dream, the result of a back-alley divination, or a report of a sighting of a woman matching Haleen’s description has come to you, placing Haleen in the vicinity of an old ghost town named Kelmarane. What she’s doing there and how she came to be there makes no sense to you yet, but the lead is the strongest one you’ve had. This and Garavel’s advertisement for mercenaries to accompany him to the region is all the omen you need. You joined Garavel’s group and eagerly await the day you’ll be leaving for Kelmarane.

Benefit: Although Haleen chose to become a swashbuckling adventurer, she always encouraged you to seek your own path, and her support is the primary reason you chose the class you did at 1st level. This class is always a favored class to you, and your dedication to it is such that every time you take a level in the class, you gain +1 hit point and 1 additional skill point over and above what you would normally gain. If multiple PCs take this trait, they should be siblings who were both protected and raised by Haleen.

Gnoll Killer
You grew up in rural Katapesh, in a region where gnoll activity was a fact of life. You killed your first gnoll at a young age when a group of gnoll slavers attacked your village, home, or caravan, and your hatred of gnolls has only grown since then. Something in your past fueled your hatred of gnolls even further— perhaps your family was slaughtered by gnolls, or maybe you even served a few harrowing weeks as a prisoner of a gnoll tribe before a miraculous escape. When you heard that Garavel was looking for brave men and women to aid in retaking the village of Kelmarane from a tribe of gnolls in the service of the notorious Carrion King, you knew you had to be part of the group, and signed up immediately.
You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls made against gnolls. If you are a barbarian and you’re fighting gnolls, your rage lasts 1 round longer than normal. If you’re a ranger and you select humanoid (gnoll) as a favored enemy, your trait bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls against gnolls increases to +2. If you’re a spellcaster, you gain a +1 trait bonus to spell save DCs for damaging spells against gnolls.

Missionary
You’ve spent much of the last several years serving your faith, and the conviction and dedication to your church has impressed many.
Perhaps you’ve donated much of your personal wealth or time to serving the church, or you’re the child of a powerful or well-loved member of the church, an orphan raised by the church, or a foundling with a strange birthmark that bears more than a passing resemblance to your faith’s holy symbol. The faith has long supported you, and you are eager to repay the church in some way. In Katapesh, the establishment of a new village is always cause for interest to the nation’s churches, as establishing new temples in villages is an excellent way to expand upon the church’s resources and bring in more faithful. If the Pactmasters’ plans to revitalize and rebuild Kelmarane are successful, the village will need a temple, and your faith is keenly interested in being represented there. This campaign trait is particularly suited to worshipers of Sarenrae, as Kelmarane was founded near an old monastery dedicated to the Dawnflower, and reconsecrating that monastery is of great interest to Sarenrae’s church. Furthermore, a temple dedicated to her once stood in Kelmarane itself, but it has long since fallen into ruin; whispers among the religion tell that the church’s old pastor may have fallen from grace and may even have been part of the cause of the hard times that befell the village.
You’ve joined Garavel’s band in hopes of helping to establish a new temple in the soon-to-be revitalized village.

Benefit:
You’ve been selected for your dedication to the church and your strong social graces—pick one of the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Perform (any), or Sense Motive. You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks using that skill, and it is always considered a class skill for you.

Reclaiming Your Roots
Your interest in the village of Kelmarane is more personal than most of the others who are heading out to aid in the reclamation.
You aren’t seeking revenge against gnolls, glory, money, or anything else—to you, this is purely a matter of honor, as Kelmarane is where you were born. Your were forced to flee the village when you were only a few years old, and you didn’t discoverer this until a few years ago—perhaps you found an old document that revealed the truth, or maybe you learned the news from a relative. Both of your parents are now dead, and from what you’ve been able to piece together, one of your parents actually died in the village when whatever happened there happened. Your surviving parent spirited you away to safety to grow up elsewhere, but never spoke of Kelmarane and always told you that your other parent died when you were a child in a horrific tragedy like a fire or a flood that swept away the body. Now that you’ve started to uncover the truth, you are convinced that your heritage remains hidden in Kelmarane. Whether you just wish to find out what really happened to your parent that died there or you want to rebuild the village in his or her honor is up to you—but Garavel’s caravan to the village is just the opportunity you’ve been waiting for.

Benefit:
When your other parent died recently, among his or her effects was a single item that once belonged to the parent who died at Kelmarane. This item is your most valued possession—a piece of jewelry worth 350 gp, any masterwork weapon or armor worth no more than 350 gp, or a wand containing any 1st-level spell (CL 1st) with only 20 charges remaining. If you ever lose this item, your resulting depression imposes a –1 penalty on Will saves for 1 year.

Seeking Adventure
The Pathfinder Society has long intrigued you—tales of the exotic lands and strange discoveries made by Pathfinders have enchanted your dreams and fired your imagination since childhood. When Pathfinders came through your village or neighborhood, they immediately enthralled you with their stories and knowledge. Yet at the time, you were far too young to join them, and when they left for adventure you had to stay behind. Now that you are of age, you’ve traveled to Absalom to apply for membership. The application process went well, and you’re now a full member. Your first assignment is to accompany Garavel’s group to Kelmarane—the Pathfinder Society has heard rumors of several ancient structures in the area, including a ruined monastery once dedicated to Sarenrae, and would like to learn more about them. Even more pressing is the mystery of what brought about Kelmarane’s ruin in the first place—reports of which are vague at best. If you can determine the cause of the village’s abandonment so many years ago, you’re sure the Society would be impressed.

Benefit:

You begin the game with your own wayfinder, a loan from your venture-captain. You’ve promised to pay your venture-captain 500 gp for the wayfinder some day, but for now it’s yours to use. A wayfinder is a magical compass that grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost, and can be commanded to emit light as the spell (CL 5th) as a standard action. Further details on the Pathfinder Society and wayfinders may be found in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (pages 194–195) or Seekers of Secrets.

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For me instead the meandering path don't count for anything. What matter is the end effect. You are using a magic item to cast a SLA. And using a magic item to cast a spell, in my opinion, don't count for a feat prerequisite.
If you remove the magic item you can't cast it, so it isn't an inherent ability.
The enhancement from belts and headbands, instead, is explicitly part of the character permanent abilities (see the glossary).
From my point of view you need an explicit permission to count something coming from a magic item as part of your character inherent abilities.

Our positions are too far apart to be resolved without an intervention from the PDT.

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PRD wrote:

A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.

Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).

Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.

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You attack are aligned if you have a alignment subtype.
I.e. an Angel has the subtype "good" and his attacks are good aligned.

PRD wrote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction).

Same thing for the other alignments.

A few classes get the ability to apply an alignment to their weapons unarmed strikes included) but generally that last for a short span of time.

If you are large you can't pick up a small paladin and use him as a improvised good weapon ;-)

The level of "alignment" of a typical player character is too small, even when it is a paladin, to say that his body is made of "aligned" material.
Outsiders instead are made of their plane basic material, so they are made of aligned material.

Adding some template can infuse a PC or NPC with aligned materials, so that he will count as made by that material.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

No point in buying a bane cold silver or iron arrow.

you need +1 before you can enhance the ammo

bane increases the + by +2, resulting in a +3 weapon.

+3 weapons overcome cold iron and silver.

Sometime you need them to stop regeneration. A +3 weapon bypass DR, but it do nothing for regeneration.

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Buri Reborn wrote:

Unfortunately, that wording implies that it has a static appearance that is the same for all observers. This spell is a glamor. The type of illusion you'd be looking for appears to be a pattern.

Quote:
Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

I think you are replying to something different from what he asked.

@potent: Yes, you can have character A appear to be an ogre, B a elf, C a rat and enemies 1 and 2 dogs and 3 a cat. As Buri said that appearance is the same for all observers, but you can select a specific appearance for each target.

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Xuldarinar wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Quote:

Alarm says...

...Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space

I would have to say it does not move with the room.

So we define an area as a fixed location in space, which makes a planet's movement something to ignore or something to consider. The former is unrealist (though it is a game afterall), and the latter rapidly complicates things.

Generally it depend on the kind of room and the GM.

With me as a GM:
A tent? No, if you pick it up and set it down in a new location.
The internal of a carriage? Probably yes.
A ship cabin? Surely.

If the "room" is something reasonably permanent and well defined for me it is a valid area for alarm even if it move.
If it is something that collapse on itself and then is put up again, like a tent, if is a valid location only as long as it stay in the same location.

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
Gauss wrote:
CRB p208 wrote:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.
Right there, if there is no harm, it is not an attack.

If I cast Harm on an enemy, not knowing that he's a vampire/lich/some undead that doesn't necessarily LOOK like a bag of bones, is it not an attack because he benefits? Same for hitting a golem with a spell that would, in fact, heal it?

PRD wrote:

Attacks of Opportunity

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.

No mention is made of enemies, just combatants near the provoking character

PRD wrote:

Threatened Squares

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Here it DOES mention enemies, but still, two separate paragraphs on the same rules say different things.

It is not "two different paragraphs that say different things", it is a single rule where the second paragraph specify how it work.

By your logic I can take the first paragraph of most feats and say that the feat work differently.
"I throw away the part I dislike" isn't how rules work.

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
Threatened squares talks as if only enemies can provoke, but attacks of opportunity talks using the more generic term "combatants". The problem is the wording of the rules is not quite internally consistent.

Only if you want to have it work another way. The rule is clear: "An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you."

Reading something different in that phrase from what it say mean that someone is purposefully misreading it.

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Protoman wrote:
Slithery D wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Constructs can drink potions and benefit from it.
Can they? They only semi-applicable rule I can think of is the Iron Body spell, which says you can't drink or benefit from potions in that condition.

While the bestiary just says "Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep" that doesn't include drinking.

Advanced Race Guide has some additional info on that: "Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that a construct can drink potions to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required to survive or stay in good health."

And potion rules has: "Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion or use an oil."

So as long as the potion/infusion spell effect could affect golems: no issues with spell immunity/SR; doesn't have to only affect living creatures (cure X wounds for healing), and if requiring a fortitude save for whatever reason would also affect objects or is harmless; the potion/infusion ought to work.

I think that the rule from the ARG you cite applies only to constructs created using that book, not to the Bestiary constructs.

I see it as a exception made for the benefit of playable races, not a general rule.

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Domestichauscat wrote:
I did this once. One time I played a Hellknight and our chaotic bard was falling into some death water off the boat we were on. I asked the gm if I can hit him as an attack of opportunity for him losing his balance and falling off the boat. He said yes. I proceeded to smite him with the blunt sides of my spear like a baseball bat and he fell back onto the boat unharmed from the death water, but bruised. Was one of my favorite moments of the game.
I would have allowed instead an immediate action and improvised rules as needed to cover the mechanics of what you wanted to do. That way I don't get the Combat Reflexes wonk who says that he could do what you did multiple times per round.

That, especially if you were out of combat.

Having a GM mean that he can rule about this kind of action. As an heroic action it well within the spirit of the game to find a way to allow it.
"Breaking" action economy allowing it to be done regularly isn't.

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Snowblind wrote:
VRMH wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
If the caster threatens with a natural or unarmed attack then they can deliver with that.
Yes but you don't threaten an ally, now do you?
There is a majority consensus in this thread that by strict RAW you probably do threaten an ally.

To be precise: you threaten the square, but only actions by an enemy provoke an AoO:

PRD wrote:


Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
There is a majority consensus in this thread that by strict RAW you probably do threaten an ally.
Quote:
An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
Bolded for emphasis. You do not.
You've taken that out of context, though. The only time the entire section mentions enemy is that one sentence. The rest of the time it is much more generic. Also, many people have said that you should be able to declare someone an enemy if you choose and then an ally if you choose. I'm in this camp. It opens up tactics that you didn't have available before.

No Bob, he is right. The rule is very clear, you threaten, but only an enemy action provoke an AoO.

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wraithstrike wrote:

Where/what is the rule option for magically hardening walls?

It is not something I would use all the time, but there are times it would be nice to have.

The one I have found first is here: walls but I am fairly sure it exist in other section of the books with the same or similar text.

PRD wrote:

Walls

The walls that guard castles and cities are sturdy fortifications, usually constructed in a series of 5-foot squares. A square of wall has an AC of 5, and hardness and hit points equal to its type.

Squares of walls can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating wall squares costs 500 gp per wall square. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat walls.

When a wall gains the broken condition, its hardness is halved, but the wall is not breached. Only destroying a section of wall allows it to become breached. When a square of wall is breached, any sections directly above it fall onto the missing section of walls. Doing this reduces the falling wall section to half its current hit point total –1, which applies the broken condition to that square of wall.

Then there is the hardening spell linked a few posts above.

My take is that the hardening of walls described above is more of a enchanting or alchemist process than casting a spell.
I recall readying somewhere (probably in the 3.0 ed. Strongholds book) that it require the Craft wondrous items feat.

Edit: Pizza did find the reference about the Craft woundrous items.

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Ravingdork wrote:
I imagine the characters are not stabbing at the padlock (that's silly), but sticking it in between the lock bars and prying, similar to an indestructible crowbar. Ergo, the inappropriate weapon rule probably should not apply.

Improbable. A dagger has a short handle, you can't get the leverage.

What you do is to cut way the bolt or the hinges.
It work even if not perfectly, it still is a tool made do different things. An adamantine chisel would be better.
both solution leave a broken lock/door behind.

To the OP: Beside all the other considerations, look the rule about magically hardening walls. 500 gp for a 10'*10' area, an increase of 10 points of hardness and double hp.
That would make stone doors immune to the adamantine items ability to bypass 20 points of hardness, and the cost is relatively low for the NPC you encounter in a high level adventure.

"Mundane" locks, doors and chests shouldn't be a problem for adventures of even middle levels, they are speed bumps, meant to deplete part of the duration of round/level and minute/level spells, not obstacles.

Those that are meant to be obstacles should be hardened end enhanced appropriately.

Pizza Lord wrote:

Making a material that bypassed all hardness was one of the most short-sighted ideas that came along. A material that ignored half the hardness of any material below 20 would have been just as awesome.

It don't "bypassed all hardness", it is "bypass any hardness lower than 20". Big difference in a game where most magically enhanced items get an hardness of 20+.

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Forseti wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

After a couple of seconds it deposit on everything, even the invisible person. But there is a big difference between what stick to a moving creature against what fall to the ground.

You have ever seen one of those graduation ceremonies where students throw handful of flour against the one getting his degree?
They are throwing flour directly against him, but unless he/she is wet very little stick to the target. And they are throwing it directly against him.

I've seen pictures (and video) of Kim Kardashian being flour-bombed. She was covered in copious amounts.

Diego Rossi wrote:

In this situation you aren't doing that, you are throwing your flour in the air or on the ground trying to cover the whole square.

so it do [b+exactly[/b+ what it say it do. It "momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there".

you see, there is a rule,it say exactly what it do. Arguing that it "logically should do" something different as no place in this section of the forum.

There's no doubt in my mind that there will be significant amounts of flour on a creature if there was enough flour to outline it. The invisibility mentioned in the powder entry is referring to the general concept of invisibility, as mentioned in the glossary. (Which, incidentally, includes this snippet: "One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).")

Diego Rossi wrote:

So for you, how long is "momentarily" and how you read "reveals if there is an invisible creature there" is the same thing as it is cover it and make it visible?

That's another problem right there. "Momentarily" is not specifically defined in the rules so anyone's interpretation of how long this moment lasts is valid. Anyone's interpretation that's not ridiculous is valid and a correct way to handle the powder issue in the game.

Also, who's to say that the interpretation of "momentarily" we're supposed to apply here isn't its...

PRD wrote:
One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).

Object, not a creature, for the simple reason that you aren't throwing some flour in its general direction, you are coating it.

Coating something in flour is a bit more thoroughly than simply throwing the flour in its area and hoping that enough will cover it.

And, just for the record, a unit of powder is 1/2 lbs, about 230 grams. In a 1,5*1,5 meters area.
About 1 gram for square cm of the floor. Way kless when you consider all the vertical surfaces. "significant amounts". Not really.

You are missing the not insignificant point that you are targeting the square, not a creature.

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Forseti wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Forseti wrote:
Only one of those options makes sense and the answer that makes sense is always the one you pick when rules don't deal with the question.
You would think, but some explicitly believe otherwise. They make up rules about what happens when the rules are silent... the text does not say creatures get covered so by magical default rule #77, they do not.

The rules don't say anything at all about what happens to the powder when you throw it at the square. When Diego writes: "you are creating a cloud of calk or flour in the square and you see the empty outline of the creature", that's not in the rules either. He made that up. But it is what you would expect when you throw around generous helpings of powdery substance. It makes sense in the imaginary world.

Filling in sensible specifics where the rules fall short is something everyone does all the time. It's such a natural thing to do that Diego probably didn't even realize that he criticized me for making something up while the whole scenario he paints is one he just made up himself and has just as little grounding in the rules as written as my version.

What makes no sense, is to invent sensible stuff where the rules aren't explicit, but at some point in the narrative arbitrarily stop following through. If you imagine a cloud of powder, the powder is there all the way, and it should behave like a cloud of powder, or your game devolves into nonsense.

Perfect, you throw the powder and it do something, that something is spelled out:

"momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there".
Full stop.

I added an explanation of how it do that, you added something that isn't in that text and actually contradict it.

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Forseti wrote:

So where does all the powder go? Does it disappears completely? Does it settle down to indiscriminately cover anything that happens to be in the square? Does it magically avoid creatures in the square?

Only one of those options makes sense and the answer that makes sense is always the one you pick when rules don't deal with the question.

After a couple of seconds it deposit on everything, even the invisible person. But there is a big difference between what stick to a moving creature against what fall to the ground.

You have ever seen one of those graduation ceremonies where students throw handful of flour against the one getting his degree?
They are throwing flour directly against him, but unless he/she is wet very little stick to the target. And they are throwing it directly against him.
In this situation you aren't doing that, you are throwing your flour in the air or on the ground trying to cover the whole square.
so it do exactly what it say it do. It "momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there".

you see, there is a rule,it say exactly what it do. Arguing that it "logically should do" something different as no place in this section of the forum.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Forseti wrote:
Only one of those options makes sense and the answer that makes sense is always the one you pick when rules don't deal with the question.
You would think, but some explicitly believe otherwise. They make up rules about what happens when the rules are silent... the text does not say creatures get covered so by magical default rule #77, they do not.

So for you, how long is "momentarily" and how you read "reveals if there is an invisible creature there" is the same thing as it is cover it and make it visible?

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Forseti wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
All this talk of "it's outside the rules"? Nope, sorry. The pinpointing rules are clear as day, and do not include any special caveats about items not picked up by the invisible character. Even the ubiquitous "bag of powder" trick only allows pinpointing "momentarily" and only works in a single square, and the rules for that suggest that sprinkling it on the floor and tracking (what do you know, there are rules for tracking invisible creatures, too) is more effective.

The bag of flour trick will work for as long as the creature is covered in it in my games.

Quote:
Powdered chalk, flour, and similar materials are popular with adventurers for their utility in pinpointing invisible creatures. Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints.
That's how the bag works against general invisibility. One manner of becoming invisible is the more specific Invisibility spell, which has its own caveat about how to deal with stuff picked up while under its influence.

Re-read what you quoted, in particular the parts I bolded.

1) you don't throw the bag at a creature, you throw it to a square.

2) it momentarily reveal if there is a invisible creature in the square.

So you are not covering the creature with calk or flour, you are creating a cloud of calk or flour in the square and you see the empty outline of the creature.

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dragonhunterq wrote:

2 things spring to mind, one Earth Glide is the specific ability here as it is clarifying both the spell and the creature.

second, not seeing a conflict with the spell as it requires move earth to be cast on the area, not the creature. It is disrupting the earth the elemental is moving through, which affects the creature, not the elemental directly.

So, yeah critter gets stunned despite the immunity.

Move Earth wrote:

Area dirt in an area up to 750 ft. square and up to 10 ft. deep (S)

This spell has no effect on earth creatures.

1) the spell can't target a creature

2) the spell say that it don't affect earth creatures.

Earth Glide (Ex wrote:
) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

1) Earth glide say that if the creature is in a area targeted by a Move earth spell it the creature can eb stunned.

2) Nowhere it say: "this override specific immunity to stunning" nor "this override the specific limit of move earth where ti say This spell has no effect on earth creatures."

So no, it don't override specific immunities.
It work on druids wildshaped into earth elemental, oracles with the stone gliding ability and any other creature with stone gliding that isn't a earth creature, but it don't bypass specific immunity as stone gliding don't say that the stun effect bypass specific immunities.

To apply "specific beat generic" you need to have a specific that say that it beat generic immunities.
"a fireball deal fire damage" don't beat "immunity to fire", even if that is the specific of the spell while immunity to fire is a a benefit of the generic fire subtype.

Liberty's Edge

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N N 959 wrote:

@OP

It appears no specific rule cover this, but it's unequivocal that if an arrow did stick into a person, the arrow would remain visible per RAW. While it's clearly open to GM adjudication, I would highly recommend GMing the game in a manner as consisted with reality as you can manage. If that means some BBEG gets taken out much easier than you thought...you can always create more.

In real life, an invisible person gets shot with arrows, you're going to be able to at least track the square based on the arrows. So as others have suggested, I'd allow pinpointing without negating the miss chance.

Arrows kill by piercing and sticking. If you're not sure about this, watch a bow hunter reality TV show.

Alternatively, let the wizard spend a round to pull out the arrows.

Then remember to add the encumbrance of the new arrow, the damage to armor and clothing and so on.

"You must be realistic."

BTW: "He has hit me with his weapon, so there is blood on it, I see where he is ..."

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Jiggy wrote:
Covent wrote:
...the ammunition is destroyed after a hit.

Forgot that part! Yeah, that changes the equation.

The player should have used a net instead. :D

Also, wow, it's amazing how many people missed my "ammo is destroyed" error and instead went with the (also wrong) "if it's on his person it's automatically invisible too" answer. And then there's the whole "maybe getting hit doesn't actually mean getting hit because HP might not mean what the CRB says it means" thing. I guess we could all stand to put a little more effort into actually knowing what the hell we're talking about.

So! Let's put it all together! Walking through it step by step:

We know that the damage dealt from the arrows was piercing damage. More to the point, it was not slashing damage (so we know it didn't graze him with a slice as it passed by) and it was not bludgeoning damage (so we know it didn't run into him and explode without puncturing him).

We know that the CRB defines hit point damage as actually physically getting hit (not straining to dodge at the last second or whatever), which is further backed up by the interactions (or distinct lack thereof) between the rules for cure spells, fatigue/exhaustion, injury and contact poisons, natural HP recovery, falling damage, rolling a 1 on a save against an AoE, and plenty else.

Furthermore, we know that "ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless". This clearly includes the possibility of breaking into pieces, but also clearly includes the possibility of simply being bent/cracked/split to the point of uselessness while still being all one piece. As the rules go no deeper on this topic, it's left to the GM to make a ruling. Given that the OP's goal is to find a way to enforce how he wants things to go, I'll go out on a limb and say we're going with "broken into pieces".

When you put the above three paragraphs together, we have the following firmly established: The arrows physically struck the target, they punctured the...

There is a BIG difference between being hit and having arrow stick in you in Pathfinder.

You are trying to apply RL logic to an abstract system, but the you stop halfway because applying it in full will break the system.

RL: you get hit by a solid hit by an arrow, it penetrate a few centimeters and stick in your body, true.
But then you have a piece and metal and wood struck into your body. Moving increase the damage, probably you are bleeding, there are very good chances that you are dead or incapacitated.

Pathfinder: you get hit by a arrow, you lose X hit points. End of the effect.

If you want to add effects because it is "more realistic" you should redo the whole system as you are breaking piece of it to follow your tastes and you shouldn't do it in the rule forum.

PRD wrote:
Hit Points (hp): Hit points are an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment. To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally. Wounds subtract hit points, while healing (both natural and magical) restores hit points. Some abilities and spells grant temporary hit points that disappear after a specific duration. When a creature's hit points drop below 0, it becomes unconscious. When a creature's hit points reach a negative total equal to its Constitution score, it dies.

Liberty's Edge

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Jiggy wrote:
DM Jelani wrote:

I have a player who successfully pinpointed a creature under greater invisibilty during one round (due to the invisible creature casting a spell with a point of origin), and shot it twice with his longbow, successfully overcoming the miss chance. Now the player is insisting that his arrows should be visible, and that he should be able to visually track them in order to automatically pinpoint which square the invisible creature is in. Furthermore, he is asking that it negate/mitigate the miss chance from total concealment. I know that this is wrong, but I don't know how to articulate the reason it's wrong using the rules. Can anyone spell out exactly why, per RAW, the arrows shouldn't be visible?

I know I can just say, "I'm the DM, too bad bub." But I don't like doing that unless I have to. Thanks in advance for any advice.

The invisibility spell description wrote:
...items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.

Those arrows are visible until the creature spends the actions to hide them behind his invisible clothes. (Perhaps this is why wizards wear those flowing robes? In fact, I think I'm adopting that as headcanon now. But anyway, moving on...)

Strictly speaking, the rules are silent on what effects result from having visible arrows sticking out of an invisible target, so that's a GM call. However, any sense of internal consistency for your game world is shattered if the visible, seemingly-floating arrows don't tell you anything (and you'll probably lose any sort of trust from your players and be branded an adversarial GM who just wants to "win", deserved or not). Personally, I'd let it reveal the caster's position, but not mitigate the miss chance.

Hope that helps!

Please, show me the rule that explain what result you need to do to have the arrows stick in your target instead of grazing him.

Doing 1 hit point of damage is enough or you need more?
Barely rolling enough to hit is enough or we need more?
If we hit touch AC it stick in the armor even if we miss the enemy actual AC?

There is no rule about arrow sticking in a target, adding it change the game.

if we follow this kind of logic: I have wounded you with my sword, your blood a has been spilled, now it is outside of you and visible. You need to tuck it away to make it invisible again .

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