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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 7,598 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Andoran

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AJAG wrote:

@Diego Rossi,

Sorry, not to argue, just to point out that I said "innate to Yeth Hounds", now in essence I agree with you that animals can be trained to do more than just open doors, but that said, how many DM's will grant that innately or even at all to your Druids companion, a familiar or an Eidolon. Some DM's will and some will not. Unfortuantely it is not specifically covered in the rules to my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

But, and this is just 'my' opinion, a savage Yeth Hound would fail at opening doors, intelligent as it is, and without any indication of such training in the RotRL AP, makes no mention of it.
Would Nualia train them to do that? Perhaps! Again, up to the DM.

However,

Diego Rossi wrote:
The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.

OK, that seems pretty clear to me, but I understand how and maybe why you feel the 'panicked' rules do not work that way, but the RAW is fairly clear about "once they are out of (hearing)".
So if the Yeth is not howling and the PC's cannot hear it, it would seem to imply the effect wears off, or more specifically, "they can act as they want".

Now, I agree in that if you are facing a Yeth Hound and are struck by this panicked effect, it would continue to affect you as long as the "Source" of that threat is present, however, a threat on the other side of a door does not to me in and of itself cause you to keep running IMO.
I understand if you wish to adjudicate it this way but I think it could be a little bit harsh, and I suspect most players would agree.
I conceed that many would not play it this way, but according to the RAW, it could and probably should be implemented like that.

This could use some clarification from the friendly staff at Paizo.

Sorry, Diego, again, I am not arguing with you, I would still...

Your words (bold mine):

AJAG wrote:
My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.

The rules:

PRD wrote:
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. [Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

"They can act as they want" is very, very different from "the panicked effect would have effectively ended." plus "being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated."

The source of the fear is the Yeth hound not, the howling. And panicked don't require you to be out of sight and hearing of the source but of any danger. and the panic effect resume as soon as you see or hear any source of danger, not only if you see the Yeth hound.

And another citation for you, from page 563 of the CRB, exactlya bove the one you cited:

PRD wrote:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

plus

PRD wrote:


Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

The Yeth hound bay has a duration, its effect don't end because the hound has stopped baying.

Andoran

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AJAG wrote:

Just to note this: from the CRB 563

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and
they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as
they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than
running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them
rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of
sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as
they want.
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented
from fleeing.

Of course, GM's can interperate this any way they want, but unless the Yeth was continually howling or you had Line-of-sight to them, I am thinking that your "vindictive DM" (your words not mine!) made sure that you couldn't close that door, otherwise you (being out of sight=yes, out of hearing range=maybe) could have tried to hold that door and then after the seven rounds of panic were over, act as you like.

My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.
Each DM to their own, but I try to make low level adventures fun but not deadly. Seems like the DM was having a bad day!

@questions, don't give up on Pathy, it is a good system with some flaws, but I believe this TPK has more to do with the way your DM wanted that encounter to go, rather harsh, I feel! Sorry, just my opinion.

Now another thing, a 6 Intelligence creature is smart compaired to your average animal, but does this necessarily mean that they know how to open doors? I don't think that knowledge is innate to Yeth Hounds!? I know this didn't happen but you mentioned it, so just say'n! This is arbitted by your respective DM, I think...

Cats and dogs know how to open doors. A barred door would have blocked the yeth hound if he was unable to break through it, but a simple door with a handle can be opened by several animals, albeit probably it would require at least 1 round and some dex based check.

An animal with 6 intelligence will be capable to open it.

Cat opening several doors

- * -

The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

- * -

Put aside the above points, from questions report the problem is the GM, not the rule system. It seem that he was gunning for a TPK.
Problem GM are problem GM, regardless of the system.

Andoran

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

My major problem with uses per day isn't so much the fluff (of which I shall keep my opinion on it close to the vest, though it seems to differ from many in this thread)... It's the gameplay consequences.

In short.. It reinforces the fifteen minute work day. At least from what I've experienced. I know very few who would actually want to be the truly epic big damn heroes that continue on despite being tired and worn out.

I can understand resting for HP... But when entire parties are resting because people are out of x/day (this includes x/rounds, x/anything, x/etc), despite having good HP and casters still have a handful spells left... Totally breaks my verisimilitude.

I can get the tactical advantage of fighting the BBEG at totally topped off everything... But there's no effing thrill to the story when the heroes plow through a dungeon, rest for a few hours inside said dungeon, then go off to fight the final boss as pristine as the day they left town! And usually, due to how most of these 'Boss Fights' are designed, these fully fresh characters often trounce said boss... Because there's nothing in the module that states the boss would rather harass them while sleeping, than sitting in his sanctuary wringing his hands evilly and twirling his mustache.

Don't believe me? I've seen it, I've been in parties that do it. Several times. One of my worst groups would practically boycott and derail the game until they got to do it, which is not a good experience for a new GM (who was only doing it because none of the usual GMs wanted to, despite only having been playing for a year beforehand), which made her vow never to GM again, mainly due to the fact, that they vehemently argued with very raised voices they 'Should' be able to ONLY so the casters can re-prepare their spells, and the barb can get rage rounds ("By not letting us sleep, you're just trying to pull a TPK!"). After only ONE and a HALF combats at level 2 (they retreated, and the nature of the dream labyrinth prevents things from...

Puna'chong wrote:

My groups know that if they try to take a nap in the dungeon they're probably going to get ganked. So they've all got it in their minds that their shot at the haunted castle or enemy lair is either a full attack or they'll need to find a way to retreat. Which makes them conserve resources and use them smarter, and also gauge whether they need to beat a tactical withdrawal.

I mean, I'm not a total jerk and I will let them rest on occasion, especially if the dungeon is large and they've got an area relatively secure, but I also run my encounters with the idea that they're resource tests. If you blow all of your abilities on an encounter you're going to have a hard time on the next one; if you don't have abilities to blow that entire attrition factor goes out the window.

This ^

Maybe it is because all of the players in my group have learned to play with 1st ed. AD&D but we assume wandering monsters, the need to end a fight or retreat to a secure position and to have resources to fight at least one more time during the night or while returning to our secure base, but we rarely play the 15 minute adventuring day burning all our resources in 1 or 2 battles.

Infinite resources without limitations will be used every round, to the point that they will become very boring to use.

Infinite resources with a recovery time (think alchemist mutagen) will become use it in a fight, rest till you recover.

1 use for battle will have the players used as an example by Artemis argue that running out of the room/sight of the enemy and returning 1 round later is the same thing that entering a battle anew, so they should be able to use their powers again.

Problem players are always problem players.

Andoran

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Squiggit wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Magus. A personalized spell list and he get almost nothing at a lower spell level (nothing with the spells in UM).
The summoner is a 9 spell levels class masquerading as a 6 spell levels class.
Yeah. I know the magus gets stuck with only 6 levels of spells... but that's not really relevant when I'm comparing it to the summoner or inquisitor (done on purpose because summoner and sacred huntsman inquisitor both do the hunter's job better than the hunter).

Comparing the spell list of a class with 6 level of spells to that of the summoner will always give you the impression that the other class spell list is lacking, but that isn't a problem of the other class spell list, it is a problem of the summoner spell list. 45% of the spells in his spell list in the APG are at a lower level than other classes.

Use the bard as a comparison, he only get 12% of his spells at a lover level than other classes.

Andoran

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swoosh wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:

Good lord combat is slow enough.

I think the high damage is part of balancing marshals with magics as has been said.

A fight will last a very small number of rounds. Resolving what happen in a round is time consuming. That has its drawback.

The small number of round remove the option to use more complicated tactics or non swift in combat buffs. The slow resolution of a character action push the GM toward encounters with a small number of powerful enemies and that make the martial ability to continue to make attack as long as they have hp mostly irrelevant and advantage single massive attacks either with save or die spells or as the ability to deal large number of hp in a single attack for martial.

Changing that will require big changes to the mechanic of the game.

The one change I so wished had actually made it into the game was the idea to remove iterative attacks. Instead of making multiple attacks per round when your BaB hit the right level you would just add your weapon dice to the roll again.

1st level your long sword did 1D8+x but at 6th it would do 2D8+x. Made it SOOOO much easier to balance around and made vital strike, charge, power attack, etc. so much more valuable.
Plus balancing the HP's around that kind of damage output actually made evocation spells useful without needing massive amounts of feats, class dips.

Oh Well.

Also would let martial characters feel more mobile and less like turrets. Always felt silly to me that if an enemy is within five feet of my fighter I can turn him into lunchmeat, but if he's SIX feet away... well damn, I can barely even scratch him.

On the other hand the martials would do way less damage (the static bonuses are way more relevant than the weapon damage dice) and increasing the number of enemies as a way to balance the martials and spellcaster strengths would be even less of a option.

Currently the martial punching a hole in the line of mooks defending the beeg, downing 2 or 3 enemies in one round is feasible, especially if they have already been weakened by a friend. If we give them a single powerful attack they would be capable to kill only 1 enemy during their round.

Andoran

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PRD wrote:

Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

It say it right into the rules. But, as usual, someone claim that what he don't like is "flavor text".

Andoran

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Ascalaphus wrote:

@Artemis: when I tried it I used only one constant. It's still pretty easy.

---

Re: Globe of Invulnerability. By default emanations move with you, but a specific power always overrides the general rules. The Globe is an exception to the normal emanation spell rules. I see no ambiguity there.

Really?

The globe emanate from you.
You can move.
The globe can't move.
.....

The fix is simple: giving the spell a range of 0 and an Area of effect: 10' spherical emanation.

Andoran

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Lormyr wrote:
Diego, the globe is completely immobile. Carefully re-read the very first sentence describing the spell.

A row of text that completely contradict the other part of the description. Nice.

One of the two things is wrong.
An emanation centered on you move with you. The spell say the globe is immobile.

If it is immobile (and that is a good subject for a FAQ) it can be used to protect martials with a low will ST. The tank that don't use shield, protection from evil, mirror image and so on will appreciate it.

Edit:

PRD wrote:

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

So, an emanation move with the target, a spread don't. Magic circle against evil is an example of that.

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser wrote:


Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.

Decidedly it contradicts itself.

Andoran

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I think that the implied question is: "The human get his dexterity bonus to AC?"

I would say that he get it. He see the drow making the attack, so he is aware of it.

Andoran

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It is the cost of special inks, probably some of them with with costly colors and metal based.
The fluff I use is that part of the spell you are scribing is a diagram that is used to memorize it and that is needed to prepare the spell, that diagram should be made by special materials, like gold foil and other stuff. A spellbook is a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial]illuminated manuscript

where the images are needed to prepare the spells.

A scroll of a spell has a more advanced version of that diagram, one that contain the energy to activate it.

In the right conditions you can steal the special inks and quills from a shop or another spellcaster. Ask your GM about that.
Another way to get that stuffis capturing enemy spellbooks, but you can't use them until you comprehend and copy the spells.

Yes, I use those rules both as a GM and as a player, they are one of the limiters of a wizard power. I am playing in a fast paced campaign and some my 9th level magus WBL is locked in several captured spellbooks (worth more than 10.000 gp). As we are constantly adventuring I can't spend more than 2 hours/day learning new spells or copying them. I will have to spend more than 20 days to copy the spell I can use from those spellbooks.

Andoran

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Scavion wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
and consider any unprotected spell components (or anything else similar in nature, really) being worn by pretty much any elemental unusable.

This whole dumb argument sprang up around this phrase which has absolutely no basis in the rules. Components are not rendered useless by being wet.

And just so we're touching all our bases.

Spell Component Pouch wrote:
Most spell component pouches are waterproof and can be strung onto a belt or bandolier.
So there we have it. Doesn't matter either way. Elementals can wear armor and other gear. It isn't destroyed by them wearing it since they don't deal damage or otherwise to objects they touch.

Actually that was my argument (for water and fire elemental only). For fire elemental that is very clear. They deal burn damage to things that touch them, from 1d4 for a smell one, to 2d10 for a large one. The spell component pouch and the stuff it draw for it will suffer that damage, and they wouldn't survive it. The pouch has a couple hp (unless it si made of special materials), most components not even 1 hp. The live spider for spider climb? It is not alive anymore. The mistletoe a druid use as a focus? Oops, charcoal.

Water elemental are a bit different. I think that they made things wet (not soaked). some item will have problems. The spider or the mistletoe? No. Some powder, paper and similar stuff? Yes.
The pouch is waterproofed, but when you draw the items to use them they can be damaged.

- * -

PRD wrote:


Water Mastery (Ex) A water elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. These modifiers apply to bull rush and overrun maneuvers, whether the elemental is initiating or resisting these kinds of attacks.

So the water elemental suffer some drawback for being out of the water.

In earlier version they were unable to move more than a few hundreds of feet from a body of water. The range was HD dependent.
Those little things in the creatures description, with some indication on their ecology and how they worked is something I miss in the modern bestiaries. Removing them allow Paizo to use a single page for a monster description, a thing that make easier to print them from the PDF, but it remove some cool information about the way to handle the creatures.

PRD wrote:


This translucent creature's shape shifts between a spinning column of water and a crashing wave.

"crashing wave". It seem that the water elemental is constantly falling to the ground and reforming. It has no in game effect, but saying that if it is out of the water it leave the ground wet seem reasonable.

For me it is is the same thing we do when walking, we leave footprint. It will be not enough to damage the elemental unless it stay away from the water for a long period, but enough to be noticeable

Andoran

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Kwauss wrote:


wraithstrike wrote:


Yes I do agree the bard is performing, but not using the perform skills unless called for.

This just opens another can of worms - now a bard can do their 'whisper performance' if they only want to effect their adjacent comrades (which can get louder later). They now have an ability that's better than a spell (a partial Silent Spell), since spells need to be in a normal spoken voice. Maybe they can start with a visual performance (since it's quiet and allows you to sneak up on the bad guy) and switch to an audible one when people start to spread out during battle (it doesn't say you can't switch, only that you choose a mode when starting).

And I thought the conclusion is that it is using the perform skill (as it says so), but not requiring a check?

You just gave m,e a wicked idea to blow a vein of my GM.

Message + audible bard performance. Now he can use it at 100'+'/level while whispering.

LOL, I don't think he will allow that.

Andoran

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sunshadow21 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
A third-party source really shouldn't be "close enough" in a rules debate.
In this case, though, they aren't making any new rulings, they are simply organizing things in a slightly different way that all but the pickiest of rules lawyers would simply gloss over. So, in this case, it really is close enough, if even the people doing the formatting isn't officially Paizo.

Reorganizing the content of the different tables, including in them elements that aren't included in the rules, is rewriting the rules.

Andoran

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The one to which the following citations are the answer:

PRD wrote:

At 6th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level .... functions as elemental body II

At 10th level ... functions as elemental body III.

At 12th level ... functions as elemental body IV.

PRD wrote:


Elemental Body I

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of a Small air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. Elemental abilities based on size, such as burn, vortex, and whirlwind, use the size of the elemental you transform into to determine their effect.

Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.

Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to earth glide.

Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.

Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Constitution and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.

Elemental Body II

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5

This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body III

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6

This spell functions as elemental body II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +6 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body IV

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Huge air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 120 feet (perfect).

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 120 feet.

The druid get only what is cited in the spells.

Scavion wrote:
Lifat wrote:

Druids are nowhere near as powerful in pathfinder as they were in 3.5...

And they are definitely less powerful than the wizard and might be slightly less powerful than the cleric, but yes... Even in pathfinder the druid is a strong class.
Hard to say. Druids can get a form of immortality at 5th level. They're still easily more powerful than a Cleric, but still on par with Wizards.

What form of immortality?

If you mean reincarnation, it is a 4th level spell and can only be cast on another person.

Andoran

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A bonus that came from the same source don't stack, Trapfinding+trapfinding = trapfinding.

Andoran

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We are speaking of high priced items. My estimate is that 1 gp is worth between 25 and 50 €, 20 to 40 £.
So 500-1.000 £ for a 1st level potion.

While I agree that the price of the magic items should be affected by the demand, in reality we would see very few shop with any of those items on the shelves and only in major cities (remember, the largest city in the Inner Sea has 300.000 inhabitants). They would be all items that are produced when someone order them or at most a shop would have a few of the most common stockpiled for the people that want them.

That would both push up the price (you are ordering it, you can pay for it) and push it down (finally we have a costumer, let's keep it).

Andoran

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Actually Razmir is level 19 without any mythic tier.

You can substitute Arazni if you want, or Geb.

Andoran

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LazarX wrote:
Artanthos wrote:


Individuals of that level of power tend to be extremely long lived, allowing a disproportionate number to accumulate.

On the other hand they also tend to be targets of people in the same level of power, who in many cases will find ways to kill their targets permanently. That's a heavy limiting factor.

Keep in mind there are ways to cut people off from their mythic abilities.... Severance comes to mind.

Only if they are a big problem for the other guy. If the character want to stay home and control his territory or even slowly expand, he will use minions, not risk himself directly against similarly empowered characters.

It is what Razmir is doing.
The queen of the elves see him as a menace, but she don't attack him directly, nor Razmir barge in Kionin to slay her. A 20th level character in Taldor will hardly care about a 20th level character in Varisia unless they are clashing over something. You fight with your neighbours or with people that has something that interest you, not with a random guy 3.000 km away.

A buffed group of 5-6 level 14 characters can easily kill a unbuffed and not fully equipped 20th level character, so those character will have bases that reduce the risk of scry and fry tactics (not that I think that they work as well as some people claim). No one can keep being fully buffed 24 hours every day forever or want to do it. You want to be able to bathe, take a nap and so on. That mean that higher level characters will go around slaying people only when it is needed, not when they hear that another 20th level character live somewhere. And that is one of the reasons why they are less influential than they power warrant.

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About the OP post.
Until the advent of mechanization 90% of the population was working in agriculture to raise enough food for the population. Beside plant growth I don't see anything that directly impact cultivation. Create water can help a bit, but the quantity produce isn't so great (as someone pointed out in another thread a single 1st level caster will produce less water than a wind powered pump. Sure, you can produce it even in a area where there isn't a water table accessible for the pump, but you need a large number of casters to produce the water needed for a single village.

an animated plow that do the same work of a team of ox will cost 2.000 gp (small animated object).
Actually it will do less than the oxes. With the oxes you can use them to pull a wagon after you have finished plowing, the animated plow will do only a single work.

Maybe you could commission a large animated object in the form of a cart to do all the work of a farm tractor. 12.500 gp. My rough estimate is 1 gp = 25 €. That is 312.500 €. Very few people can afford that. And to build the construct you need a 5th level wizard (Craft wondrous item at level 3, craft weapon and armor at level 5, 5th level bonus feat for craft construct).

Then there is the problem that you raise your character level very slowly or the hard way, earning XP. So to get a 5th level wizard without adventuring we need to have him train for a lot of years. Probably he would be a 40+ years old guy in a age where most people will die of disease before becoming so old.

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Claxon wrote:

Killing people is actually pretty ineffective for keeping them gone most of the time, as you've noticed.

This is why you use spells like Trap the Soul or the Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Trap the Soul locks their soul into a gem if used successfully. Combined with beguiling gift (heightened) you don't risk destroying the soul trap when using the trigger object method.

Helm of Opposite alignment turns you antithetical enemy into your ally., at least potentially. At the very least, they'll no longer be interested in whatever they had been doing as their personality is no completed inverted.

Alignment, not personality.

He was a CE individual that loved his son and like to play with puppies? Now he is a LG individual that love his son and like to play with puppies.
He was a LG guy that hated your guts? He is now a CE individual that hate your guts.
He will regret his old actions, if he hated you because you were a sadistic torturer he will probably change his opinion of you fairly fast, but if he hated you because you killed his betrothed he probably will go on hating you because you killed his betrothed.

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Zark wrote:

More races than humans get the fc bonus.

Human, half elf half orc, so 3 out of 7 basic races. 42% of the basic races. If someone is playing "maximize my character" with this kind of masterpiece he will do it completely, I think, taking the races that pay less for it.

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It don't say that you can make untrained skills checks as trained, so you can't.

Honestly it is a very badly thought ability. You lie so well that the whole universe decide to change to make your lies true? No thanks.

PRD wrote:

Pageant of the Peacock (Act, Dance)

Your elegant movements cause you to seem to be more than you are.

Prerequisite(s): Perform (act) or Perform (dance) 4 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 2nd-level spell known.

Effect: By gracefully weaving your body through subtle forms and postures you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement. For the duration of the effect, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks, and may attempt a Bluff check in place of an Intelligence check or Intelligence-based skill check.

The subtle changes in your movements also confer a +4 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to appear to be someone of a higher station (an aristocrat, merchant prince, or even a queen).

Use: 1 bardic performance round per 10 minutes of the effect's duration.

Activation: 1 standard action.

Reading the first part of the effect it seem logic to apply it to charisma based skills as "you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement", then it go on and say that convincing others of your "breeding, eloquence, and refinement" give you a bonus to your intelligence based checks, i.e. craft checks, knowledge checks, linguistic, appraise and spellcraft. Like any of those cared about your breeding, eloquence or refinement (with the possible exception of linguistic when trying to use it to communicate in a language that you don't know).

Incomprehensible.

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Covent wrote:

I am sorry, but I strenuously object to this. "Logic" or "Realism" dictating rules for a game leads to horrible game balance.

If we used logic we would say "Hey Mr. 20th level with a trait for swim, a feat for swim, 32 Strength, max swim ranks and Swim as a class skill! You are wearing full-plate carrying 200 pounds of gear and holding a shield. NO SWIM FOR YOU!"

Why?

Because "Realism lol" or "It's logical lol".

In any game where people are capable of falling from orbit and walking it off, or taking magma walkies logic and realism have left the building.

Now internal consistency and balance, those are important, but D&D is not and has never really been a simulator game, so the argument should never be "Well in the real world" or "Well this is how it works in my real world experience".

This is of course my opinion, but I believe "Logic" and "Realism" are what got us the Rogue.

actually, realism has show that it is possible to do it. There area few video in internet of that:

In Japanese armor
plate armor
And those are normal men, not 20th level characters.

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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:


2. Thematically people can't actually swing a sword all day so it makes sense for basic attacks to pull from a pool just like how basic psionic powers also pull from a pool.

Actually that is one of the thematic powers of heroic combatants. Fights lasting hours or days are often cited in legends and even in some modern fiction.

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The bard is "doing something" as the bardic performance has an audible or visual component and it should be heard or seen to affect someone.
There is no need for that performance to be good at all. He can be Assurancetourix from the Asterix comic and still be able to affect people with its magical performance.

PRD wrote:
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.

The bolded part seem a clear indication that he is using the skill, even if he don't need to make any skill check.

YMMV.

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gnoams wrote:
Trying to tie hardness rules into making real world sense is futile. A strong miner, with straight 15, according to the rules cannot break stone with his mining pick (1d6+2).

1d6 is the damage of a heavy pick, that is a one handed martial weapon, not a mining tool. The closest item in that table to a the mining tool id a Mattock, a 2 handed weapon that do 2d4 damage.

So our str 15 miner using it against a piece of stone, DR 8, will do 2d4+3 damage. Rolling damage he will do some level of damage to the stone 6/16 of the time. 10/16 HP of damage/round. He will turn to gravel a 1x1x1 cube of solid rock in: 90/10*16= 144 rounds, 864 seconds, 14 minutes and 24 second.
A 4x4x2 hole in a day of work.
It seem reasonable.

Add:

PRD wrote:


Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.

and you will see that almost certainly a pick has a bonus against the DR of a piece of stone.

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As a GM that has been there and done that, your post make me suspect that the GM is using your character as a plot hook for most of his adventures.
Sure, he is willing to accept other players input and give them chances for character development if they ask for it. The problem is that some player don't want to ask or don't know what to ask but at the same time feel that he is denied some space in the spotlight.
This kind of meta plot can have been their way to try to take control of part of the tale your group is telling. Clumsy and off character (the player of a paladin supporting that?), but still something that they feel they needed.
You could suggest the GM to contact the guys and to try to discover what they want in the current campaign. That probably can more useful that changing your character, as if you tend to make colourful characters with easy story hooks and the others tend to make more amorphous character this situation will repeat and the other players will feel even more frustrated.

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The eidolon is way better than a animal companion

The summoner has a 9 level spell list masquerading as a 6 levels spell list (he get 9th level spells as 6th level spells) and existentially get all the "must have" spells in his list.

Playing two characters almost all the time. While a AC is an animal, a eidolon is a fully intelligent creature managed by the player.

It don't pay anything for that. BAB 3/4, as all other classes with 6 levels of spells but it get 9th level spells, able to use light armors, proficient with simple weapons, between his skill list and that of the eidolon he cover all the needed skills and he get 6 skill level between his two characters.

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Starbuck_II wrote:
Azten wrote:

At least we still have the Samsaran.

Until that's "FAQ'd" too anyway.

Only benefit of Samsaran (after FAQ) now is getting a spell at a lower level: for example, Stoneskin is a lower level if taken from Summoner, than if you are a Wizard, etc.

Since it was already on your list: the FAQ is cool with this. You are just changing up the level of spell.

How many time this should be repeated before people notice it?

Mark Seifter wrote:
The PDT's second post in this thread calls out that the Samsaran definitely adds the spells to your class spell list.

To put in all the passages:

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.

But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.

As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.

and

PRD wrote:
Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

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Lifat wrote:
Scythia wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Unless the summoner takes those crafting feats, it's not going to happen.

Wrong, LazarX, and you know that perfectly. With the rules for collaborative crafting he only need to know a guy with the feats and work with him. it can be a party member, a cohort, or a NPC.

Collaborative crafting for items like weapons, wondrous items, and the like, not items under the catergory of the creator MUST know the spell, i.e. wands, scrolls, potions.
About that...
Technically speaking not official ruling. But it does speak to intent... And I would agree with it.

There is a official ruling, and LazarX know it well, it has been cited several times to him. simply he refuse to acknowledge it.

PRD wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

The crafter meet the spell prerequisite through another caster, as specifically allowed by the rules.

To add:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."

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When a summoned creature dies or the spell end ll of its possessions disappear.

What happen if the summoned creature has poisoned someone and the poison is still affecting the target?

The damage clearly stay, but, AFAIK, the poison itself part of the creature, so it should disappear, stopping immediately its effect.

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èquote=DAZE]This spell clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions.

Even it someone hasn't taken any action, that is not the same thing as "hasn't acted". His turn has come and his action has been "take no action".

And the complete description of flat footed is:

PRD wrote:

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.è/quote+

That "pecifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order" is even more telling. It is not important what you have done, your first turn has come and passed, so you are no more flat footed, even if an enemy has rendered you unconscious before you had any chance to act and you have been later cured by an ally.

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I think that lesser restoration can remove the physical need to sleep without problems. That is NOT the same thing as saying that you can work more than 8 hours in a day without the need to rest. Mental fatigue is a different matter and the rules are explicit in saying that working more than 8 hours in a day is not normally allowed and generate fatigue.

I would allow people to go 3 day without sleeping and mental rest, if they are using lesser restoration to recover the physical effects. After that I would start to apply mental damage, 1 point/day to wisdom, unrecoverable until you sleep at least a full night (or equivalent for your race).
Some race or character can substitute meditation or other forms of mental recuperation.
One of the function of sleep is to allow us to process the information we gathered while active and store them in our long term memory. I don't think that lesser restoration will be enough to cover for that need.

Note that if you are sleeping badly (like sleeping in full armor without endurance) lesser restoration will cover for that forever.

- * -

About the scribing spell part. I think you can work only 8 hours every day at scribing spells. An those are the same hours used to make magic items or craft items. I would allow you to scribe spells in your spellbook using the "make magical items while adventuring" rules (if you are adventuring, obviously), so 4 hours in a day, worth only 2 hours of progression in the job, while doing mundane things at camp.

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wraithstrike wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Deadalready wrote:

The presence or absence of the big caster(s) pretty much decides encounters in my opinion. How likely are you going to tackle that Dragon knowing your Cleric is away. Do you dare fight multiple vampires without arcane support?

I know in my case the party has avoided fights because our wizard was away.

Honestly, INMFO, the GM needs to take party capabilities into account. If you don't have a cleric or other good way to handle vampires, then the GM should not throw vampires at the party, or at the very least do so sparingly and keep in mind that weakness so the battle remains fair.

Encounters should be tailored to the PCs, not the other way around.

Sometimes GM's dont have time. This is mostly for AP's.

And the players can adapt their playstyle to the absence of some specific class in a party.

You have a oracle instead of a cleric? Probably he can spam dispel magic, but it is not a given that he will learn restoration or be capable to use positive channel to damage undead.
Depending on his build he can or can't be able to bluff the party. For sure he can't his spell load depending of the probable obstacles.
So, probably, he is less effective against a group of undead than a cleric, but that don't mean that the GM should remove or redo every undead encounter. It is the job of the players to take that into account and adapt their tactics. Wand exist and you can find some with less than full charges for a good price. Or you can buy scrolls.
UMD is a class skill for several classes or you can take a trait to make it a class skill. Potions exist, there are even elixirs of some spell that can't be made into a potion.
Generally what you lose in efficiency for not having a specific class you can get back in other situations from having a character with another class. Some adversary can be a big obstacle if you don't have spellcasters at all, but not insurmountable.

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K177Y C47 wrote:


Did you miss the party were I said strong will saves help a lot.

You missed:

Diego Rossi wrote:
outsiders or spellcasting enemies.

- * -

K177Y C47 wrote:
Oh! And for people complaining because "Witch's Hexes are Su so they get around SR!!! SO BROKENZZZ!!!" I have to ask, When was the last time you actually PLAYED a caster? Short of some very extreme examples, SR on monsters is a joke. Most of those things do jack squat to actually stop a caster... just saying... That is like saying DR x/magic is meant to help slow down high level martials... At that point DR x/magic may as well not exist...

A 20% or so chance of failure before the target make a save is not a joke.

Losing a spell or SLA if someone has a readied action to wound you is not a joke.

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DrDeth wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:


Leaving aside the fact that critical fumbles disproportionately affect characters who make attack, a lot of people get annoyed with critical fumbles on a thematic level, given the way d20s work. The idea that your fighter can't last a full minute in combat without stabbing himself in the foot, taking a pratfall, dropping his weapon, or accidentally hitting an ally rather hurts the image of the character as competent in their chosen profession.

Right, few Fumble systems allow for a wizard to fumble a fireball. Thus, as the game goes along, Fighters get more and more chances to Fumble (some systems just give them one, but other give a chance every time a 1 is rolled).

This just makes any caster/martial discrepancy worse, and makes the Mighty Warrior into one of the Three Stooges, while the casters get to laugh at them, safe in the idea that they can choose to never roll an attack die.

Hardly fair.

And, having been a SCA heavy weapons fighter for quite some time, and a Marshal after that, I can tell you that "fumbles' are rare, and occur maybe once or twice a whole tourney , and a few more times during a entires day war. That's for ALL the participants, many Fighters go for months without a "fumble".

If you wanted to make it "realistic", it'd be a nat 1 followed by a nat 1, followed by a nat 1.

A tourney isn't a real fight to the death, with uneven footing, bad lighting and so on. Friendly fire is distressingly common.

That said fumbles in D&D are a bad idea, and system that use them as part of the core rules generally have fumbles for both caster and martials (Rolemaster, Gurps).

In Rolemaster (1st edition) the fumbles for the caster were way worse that those for the martials. If you fumbled with a weapon you incurred the risk of injuring yourself, but any kind of wound was curable.
With the caster fumbles you incurred the risk of die or to lose forever the ability to cast spells.
Death was potentially "curable",losing your spellcasting ability wasn't.
I did some math for fun. Assuming that a caster was casting 1 spell every day of his life without ever taking risk (casting with an heavier armor than allowed, or other negative modifiers), on the average he had a professional life of 40 or so years before losing forever his ability to cast spell. And that was with non combat spells, The combat spells had a way nastier table of fumbles.
The tables that I have found in Internet [second edition](my books are in a box in the basement) have less nasty tables, where the worst result (beside a 1/160.000 chance of brain death [modified by the level of the spell]) will only make you lose your casting capability for a few weeks or months.

Fumbling a spell in Ars Magica can trigger a Twilight event, with long term effects on your PC, adjudicated by the GM.

So some system integrate fumbles in the game, but generally it integrate them both for the martial and spellcasting characters.

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I think that the only possible comment is one made by SKR:

"You're not stupid. Stop acting like you don't understand that the rules are written assuming the reader isn't stupid. Stop acting like you don't understand that the rules don't have the room to spell out every possible allowed combination and spell out every disallowed combination."

(It is not about you, Bandw2)

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@ Eridan

PRD wrote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Quote:

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maouse wrote:

Rule 1 is broken by the Mythic Ability: Always a chance. And any multi-roll or re-roll abilities.

A specific rules changing how a general rules work don't break it.

maouse wrote:


Rule 2 is broken by some terrain bonuses to concealment as well as (I think) a few feats that add 10%.

Concealment isn't a bonus.

maouse wrote:


Rule 3 - one charge at a time? naw... don't think that is the limit (chill touch). Charges from one spell at a time, yes.

1 charge with multiple uses.

maouse wrote:


Rule 4 - finally one that isn't broken (I think).

Rule 5 - yep. OK. That's two good "unbroken" rules listed.

Rules that are broken aren't really rules, right? More like "guidelines for mortal characters."

No rule was broken.

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Ravingdork wrote:

For those of you looking to recharge your staff more quickly, you may

Why does a staff have to be charged in the morning? You can prepare spells as many times as you want, provided you leave some slots open. I agree that the INTENT is meant to be each day, or once per day.

Not "in the morning" but almost certainly "when you memorize the bulk of your spell for the day and decide if you want to leave free slots or not".

Charging the staff is part of your spell slot management, and that is done when you first prepare your spell for the day.

MagusJanus wrote:


The recharge period for a staff is specified as morning:

Se my earlier post about that and a divine caster that prepare spells at midnight never having the ability to charge a staff.

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@ Lycar
the feat you cited have very specific rules:

PRD wrote:


Greater Feint Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Improved Two-Weapon Feint If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.

Other feats can benefit other character that don't have them, if you have grater trip and trip someone, he is suffering from the prone condition against all opponents.

BUT they benefit other in a indirect way, allowing the other characters to benefit from the effects of the feat, not to benefit from the feat directly.
If my character has improved trip your character don't get to trip a enemy without provoking a AoO.

Beside that there is a rule about creating high level characters with crafting feats and their initial WBL, it is in Ultimate Campaign:

PRD wrote:

Adjusting Character Wealth by Level

You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.

Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.

If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.

Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.

The concept is very clear: a crafting feat isn't a free ticket to double the party WBL, it is a ticket to personalize some items and add 25% of the WBL of a single character to the whole party.

In different campaigns the results can be very different.
The players in my Kingmaker campaign have crafted a lot of items and their WBL is well above the norm.
In the Carrion Crown campaign in which I am playing we are hard pressed for time and I have been capable to craft very few items.

Andoran

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Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes the cleric in question is channeling negative energy we talked about that. Channeling negative Will boost undead diplomacy not human.

Edit: this one was a response to a post that dissapered.

Yes, I wrote my post after reading a few of the initial posts, but voideternal had already raised the question,

voideternal wrote:

Actually, with the OP's current setup, I think an undead encounter gets around the daze problem.

1) They're not living, so negative energy to harm doesn't affect them -> Immune to daze from channel negative to harm.

And Just a Mort gave a possible response to that:

Just a Mort wrote:


Clerics next feat : command undead / versatile channeling. Ra is a neutral deity so both options are open. At least he isn't a sun domain cleric...

so the post was a unnecessary repetition ad I deleted it.

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KrispyXIV wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability,

After all the modification isn't limited to the class, it simply cite the class, like in the cleric ability.

+1 So using this clearly wrong interpretation, a Skirmisher with a level in Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Witch, Bard, and Arcanist would have no spell casting ability. No slots at all.

Skirmishes explicitly replaces the spells feature. It's gone. Not modified. It's clear right there in the ability.

Swapping spells is modifying spellcasting, removing spells isn't modifying spellcasting?

I fail to see how you can argue that one is a thing the other is another. What is your definition of modifying?

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PRD wrote:
Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

It appear that spell and spellcasting aren't the same thing.

Or maybe they are?

PRD wrote:
Diminished Spellcasting: A kensai may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Intelligence allows bonus spells of that level.

Less than 2 minutes of search, mostly to make the citations.

Not so clear cut as you make it.

- * -

Let's apply the "modifies spellcasting FAQ" to those two abilities with teh broad interpretation.

Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability,
This modifies spellcasting? With the pro interpretation, yes.
so a giu with 1 level in the Skirmisher archetype and 19 levels as a wizard will have no spell.right?

A kensai may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. so this guy instead get 1 less spell of each level he can cast in each class with casting abilities?
After all the modification isn't limited to the class, it simply cite the class, like in the cleric ability.

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seebs wrote:

That's a really interesting theory, but it directly contradicts the absolutely unambiguous wording of the FAQ.

Here's that wording again, since you seem to be forgetting it constantly:

FAQ wrote:
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

Bolded a bit for emphasis. Note the word: SPECIFICALLY.

That does not mean "implies". That does not mean "suggests". That does not mean that it is totally okay for you to insultingly imply that anyone who doesn't agree with your reading of the FAQ is not applying thought.

Now define spellcasting and modifies.

You and a few other posters in this thread think that swapping spell on the fly modifies spellcasting, Wraithstrike, I and a few other poster in this thread think that it don't modifies spellcasting.

A lot of opinions have been given to support one or the other position, but in the end those definitions don't exist and neither you or I can prove that who is right.

You say:

seebs wrote:


I was on an international standards committee for a decade for recreation.

Very well, what is the first thing you do when setting up a international standard?

You get clear and unequivocal values for the reference tools you use.
Here we have highly subjective reference tools and you are amazed that we reach different results?

In this thread we have people supporting the position that using magic items is spellcasting and that SLA are spellcasting.

People that say that you modify as spell only if you change some parameter of the spell, other people that say that swapping a spell for a unmodified version of another spell mean that you are modifying it.

Andoran

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My personal answers:

1) yes, but you must fulfill all the rules required to make a climb check, i.e.both your hands must be free. If you had something in hand you could drop it as a free action when you attempt the climb check.

2) If you are in the pit area the DC is that of the pit walls +20.

3) If you are on the sloped part of the pit and fail the refelx save you can try to catch yourself on the sloped part, but the DC is based on the climb DC set by the spell +10, not on the Dc of climbing a generic slope.

You have a single chance to catch yoruself, so if you fail it you fall into the hole, you don't get a second chanche when you enter the hole area.

(If someone has a link to the moment in which Indiana Jones fall in the pit and try to grasp the Grail, link it, it seem a perfect reference. Plenty of films with that kind of images, too.)

Andoran

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seebs wrote:
James Risner wrote:

seebs wrote:

I was on an international standards committee for a decade for recreation.

read them correctly even when the result is stupid

I recall, as I've seen a couple previous posts where you mentioned it.

Then you should have no trouble understanding my motivation.

Quote:
I assert if you read a rule and result in a stupid interpretation as you say, then you are probably reading it wrong. Several developers have said "if it seems too good, it probably is" or similar over the years.

Your assertion is plausible if and only if the rules are objectively perfect. Otherwise, it's quite possible that the rule does not correctly express intent.

I am aware of the "if it seems to good to be true, it probably is" ruling. You know what? I've seen it used a lot on these boards, and in a large number of those cases, after multiple people spent hours or days being snide and derisive and dismissive about an argument and citing that over and over as the absolute proof that they were right, we got a FAQ or errata which confirmed that the thing in question was not actually "too good to be true".

Remember magus spell combat and haste? Lots of people said that giving the extra attack would be "too good to be true". Paizo did not agree with that conclusion.

"Seems too good to be true" is very subjective, and relies heavily on personal evaluation of the relative worth of various options. It's not a useful heuristic if you're trying to actually figure out what the rules are in any kind of formal sense.

It's a good heuristic for a specific game with friends who don't care that much what the rules are and everyone's having fun. But then, that also produces things where, say, the game I'm in has a half-dozen or more spells which are simply banned because they are too powerful, or they've been bumped up or down a few levels because they are good or bad. And that works fine, but you couldn't use that for PFS.

Read the rules of Star Fleet Battles. They are very clear and precise and seem exactly what you want.

Now look how many people play Star fleet Battles against how many people play Pathfinder.
SFB is based on Star Trek and the first edition was made in 1979, so it has all the basis to be a very successful franchise with as many followers as Pathfinder, but I doubt is is even in the same order of magnitude.
The Pathfinder rules are made to be readable as recreation even if you don't use them. That require a different approach than a technical manual or a old stile ruleset for a boardgame.

Andoran

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Chemlak wrote:

Time to pull out the (highly subjective) "reasonableness test":

Would a non-gamer who is not trying to read the rules as a legal document believe that a Cleric 1/Wizard 7 can convert a 4th level Wizard spell into a Cure Critical Wounds?

My own answer is "probably not, but it is not clear", which therefore makes this FAQ-worthy.

What is the caster level of that Cure Critical wounds?

It is a clerical ability, so it has a CL of 1.

But:

PRD wrote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

this seem to prohibit that.

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