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Diego Rossi's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 7,919 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Andoran

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blahpers wrote:

Since we've covered the rules at this point, how do you folks run it in practice? I find it far easier to ignore the arcane/divine distinction for scrolls and just treat the spell as a spell. At first I thought it'd seem weird from a flavor standpoint, but arcane/divine doesn't come into play when deciding whether someone can use a wand, and nobody seems to mind that. So, I figure, what the hell.

Where this gets a bit iffy is if Bob the Cleric wants to scribe summon monster i, so that Tim the Enchanter can transcribe it into his spellbook. I don't really mind this; it's (usually) more expensive overall than finding an NPC wizard with the spell in her spellbook.

Completely different kind of items: spell completion VS. spell trigger.

And the usual quote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oliver McShade and the Core Ruleook wrote:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."
A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, [b]because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."[b]

So yes, a wizard cam scribe a scroll for his sorcerer or cleric or witch or whatever friend.

What you can't do is to change the spell list for which the spell come, as you write exactly the spell memorized/know by your friend, not another spell.

So your sorcerer friend shocking grasp is an arcane spell that can be read by any arcane spellcaster with shocking grasp in his spell list, your cleric friend CLW spell is a divine spell and it can't become a arcane bard or witch spell.

- * -

There is a curious corollary: if you use a wand to cast the spell* you can choose to make a divine cleric/paladin/whatever scroll or a arcane bard /witch scroll.

*I am not completely sure that it is possible to use a magic item get the spell needed to make a scroll, wand or potion but I haven't found a specific rule disallowing that.

This rule seem to allow that:
"Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
and it is illogic to allow only the "spellcaster" part and disallow the "magic item part" when making potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items.

Andoran

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Kartissa wrote:
Thanks for all the input. Seems too cheap for me, and as my friend pointed out, our rulebook states the cost as:
Quote:
375 gp x level of the spell x level of the crafter

He (a more experienced GM than I am) interpreted that slightly differently. The 'level of the spell' is the Caster Level at which it is to be cast, while the 'level of the crafter' is the Character's level, including any multi-classing, thus being a minimum of level 5, since that's the earliest you can take the Craft Wand Feat. This makes even level 1 wands slightly more of an expense, and is more in line with our campaign setting.

Mark Hoover wrote:
Finally it might be worth it to just have the player research Infernal Healing as one of their spells. This is a 1st level spell that grants 1 minute (10 rounds) of Fast Healing 1. Essentially this is (over the full minute) more healing than CLW at CL 1 and costs the same for the PC to put in a wand. Of course, they have to find either 50 doses of unholy water or a vial (50 drops) of devil blood, but I'm sure that's in every corner apothecary right?
He have a Tiefling witch with that spell in our guild, with infernal heritage. Devil blood isn't a problem as long as he has a knife....

Your GM is missing this part of the rules:

PRD wrote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Andoran

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Tamago wrote:

So it sounds to me like it would be possible to do the following:

* Spend a swift action as normal
* Do whatever with a move action
* Spend a standard action to ready an action to perform a swift action, with the trigger being "as soon as my turn ends".

At that point, you're effectively trading your Standard action down to a swift action, right? So why not make it easier and just say you can do that, rather than making the player jump through hoops?

Don't work.

Your trigger should be an action and the readied action happen just before the trigger action.

- ending your turn isn't an action, so it is an invalid trigger.
- even if it was a valid trigger, acting just before your round end mean you are acting during your round. But you have already used your swift action for that round.

Andoran

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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So, does the "as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared" clause apply to using the spell to make a scroll or wand?

Sorry, I realized my initial reply was wrong, so I deleted most of it and redo it.

RAW, I think, will allow him to make the items, but then using them will require a UMD check.

Andoran

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FrozenLaughs wrote:
That's a very interesting interpretation of the rules on that one, thank you for sharing. :)

The original idea wasn't mine. But I found annoying the idea that my character will be constantly wearing a headband and a belt, even when naked, taking a bath or other things, so I like it.

But, on the other hand, I am part of a group of players that after crawling in tunnels filled with undead for 3 days did found a functioning thermal baths in a old temple. We looked each other and said: "It is a trap." "Yes, but you really don't want to use it?"
So we checked for poison and then we did take our baths in turns.
It ended well.

Andoran

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SoonerTed wrote:

I don't get the hostility for asking for a source, but OK. Thank you for the clarification.

As I said in the other thread, the rule doesn't make sense from a time slice perspective. The most a spellcaster with quickened spells could cast is 2, not 3+, the exact same they would be able to cast if you can't replace a standard with a swift.

You want one example of who will benefit from this?

A magus can use a swift action to enhance his weapon or to recall a spell, arcane strike use a swift action too. Plenty of times I would have traded my move action (as someone has proposed) for a extra swift action, so that I could enhance my sword and activate arcane strike (especially at low levels, where I had only 1 attack).

Sometime I would have gladly traded away my standard action for two swift, as there are several Magus arcana that require swift actions or simply because my job was to stay in position and use AoO against people trying to pass behind me, not run ahead to make a single melee attack. Getting a few extra hit point of damage on the AoO was worth the loss of the standard action.

There are a lot of classes that have to chose between performing one or another swift action and that will be more than gladly to be able to do 2 swift actions during the surprise round instead of moving.

Andoran

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The creator can set the CL of a want to any level between his current level in the appropriate class to the minimum level needed to cast the spell.

So a Cleric 6 and a Sorcerer 5/cleric 1 can both made a wand of CLW with a Caster level of 1 and a market price of 750 gp, so a crafting cost of 375 gp.

A wand need to memorize the appropriate spell and can't be made with a CL higher than the crafter CL in the appropriate class, so a level 6 cleric can make a wand of CLW with a CL of with a value between 1 and 6, a level 1 cleric/5 sorcerer can make a CLW with a Cl only of 1.

Andoran

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Darkholme wrote:

Feats, Magic Items, and Spells though? Those should basically work fine as is. The only 3.5 stuff that isn't entirely Pathfinder compatible are Classes and Monsters; and both are perfectly usable in Pathfinder, they just tend to have a bit less Oomph than the Pathfinder edition stuff.

I disagree with that, especially for spells.

In the passage from the 3.5 to Pathfinder a large part of polymorph spells have been heavily changed, same thing for save or die spells.
Introducing a spell, item or feat from the 3.5 that was based on the older polymorph mechanics or the older save or die spells will change how the game work.

Andoran

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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Artanthos way of managing create pit is way better.
If an obstruction require something more than simply picking up an object and moving it it is relevant enough that it will make the area an invalid target for the spell.

Curse me and my inability to walk away from an argument.

Not really it isn't. Now I can dig a small hole, bury my backpack with just the tip sticking out, and that would be enough to block this spell.

Or are we really going to argue about how much force should be required to pick up the object and move it?

I recently made a character with a heavy load of 45 million. I'm pretty sure he could pick up any number of trees and carry them away. Does this spell automatically work differently for him than a 7 strength halfling?

Because, once again, trees are not attached to the ground. They simply require significant force to uproot them. So they still fit under the classification of picking up an object and moving it.

What it will take to "appease my way of seeing things," as you so rudely put it, is to actually have an internal logic that is function. Aka, trees are not, have never been, and will never be part of the ground anymore that anything else that is buried is part of the ground. And if so, what happens when an adventure sticks an immovable rod in a hole in the ground. Do immovable rods auto counter this spell? What is the necessary level of effort before something becomes "part of the ground" for the purpose of blocking this spell? How did you decide that point, or is it arbitrary?

Exactly what is "part of the ground"?

And why it should matter as the spell say nothing about the ground? It say: "You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size."
It can be a tarpaulin stretched over some poles, a piece of flat ground, the third floor of a house. It don't matter. What matter is that it should be a 10'x10' horizontal surface.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:


Edit: Artanthos, I really hate to break it to you but trees are not even close to permanent.

Again, irrelevant. It is a flat surface? No, it isn't if there is a tree in it.

Andoran

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graystone wrote:
Undone wrote:
Free actions do not confer additional free actions. Speaking is explicitly called out as being allowed on not your turn. As such you can do it.
Really? I must have missed that. What I saw was "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." Could you give me a rules quote that says 'Free actions do not confer additional free actions.'? Or are you just assuming that "another action" somehow excludes free actions?
PRD wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

"Another action" from a free action, i.e. a non free action.

A free action don't confer the ability to make free actions, "another action" mean a different kind of action.

Andoran

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PRD wrote:
Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.

AFAIK nothing allow you to use a wand with spellstrike.

Andoran

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Diego Rossi wrote:


I will check my 1st ed DMG. I am perplexed as both a friend and I clearly recall that 10 minutes cool down and it was a houserule.

Damn slip of the finger, it was meant to be "it wasn't a houserule".

@seeb: you are confusing command word with use activated.

seeb wrote:


To put it another way: "This ring casts invisibility on the wearer on command." Short, clear, and unambiguous. Why does it instead say "By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell."? I always assumed it was because the ring is activated, and then provides an effect. The effect's behavior is like the spell, but that's not the same as "the spell has been cast at caster level 3".
PRD wrote:
By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.

So, what we get from that?

1) The ring effect isn't constant as it is a activated magic item.

2) It is a command word item as the item description don't give a specific method of activation and the rules for activating magic items say: "Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it."
Reinforced by: "Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description."
A copyrighted item from a book isn't the right source to get a suggested method of activation.
If we use literature as a source I recall at least a couple of fables where the main character had a ring that made him invisible when put in his mouth, under the tongue.

3) Now the duration. What do the ring? "the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell." As the spell! so it is activated and you benefit from invisibility as the spell, with a CL of 3, so for 3 minutes.
Exactly where it say that that spell get an unlimited duration? Nowhere.

Andoran

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I have ninjaed you by 46 seconds, wraithstrike .
;-)

Andoran

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CWheezy wrote:

Hey guys! I am working on a doc for reasonable spell nerfs in pathfinder! Many times it gets talked about that magic needs nerfing, but actual suggestions are pretty rare!

I have been writing my nerfs down for little while. I am not really far in, but I will continually be updating the google document. If you have any comments or questions, let me know!

Spell Nerfs

After looking the levels 0-2, it seem you are applying mostly unreasonable nerfs, with the exception of Blood money, that simply is too exploitable.

My impression is that, for the spells I have seen, you don't know their limits or you go only with horror stories from the forum instead of seeing them in game.

If you have so much problems with pure casters, remove them from the allowable PCs and limit the game to character with only 6 or even 4 levels of spells. it would eb more honest.

Andoran

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The search function is your friend, this argument has been covered several times.

A recent discussion[url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rgry?Adventurers-are-neccessary-to-balance-the][/url].

As Matthew said, 200.000 gp are a big sum, but not something really staggering. It is around 10 millions euro. In our world we have people that is paid that sum for a year or even a month of work and while they are rich people they are very far from being part of the richest elite.

The PC are similar to the Russian nobles fleeing the communist revolution, people with a lot on wealth on themselves but without a steady source of income. They aren't really rich.

To make another example a big truck is worth about 10.000 gp. You see a trucker as a rich guy? A fishing boat is worth even more. You see a professional fisherman that own his boat as a very wealthy man?
The adventurers are guys that own a very expensive equipment that they use to do their work. They don't have a very large income, they have costly equipment. At least for me a rich guy that can affect the economy is someone that has a large expendable income, not someone that has a large sum of money immobilized in the equipment he use for his work.

Andoran

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It isn't a Rule forum question, it is a PFS forum question. Normally you don't get boons giving you one use of a spell in normal play. There is some effect that can do that but most of them are fairly rare.

There is Imbue with Spell Ability that give you a clerical spell but that will forever remove a spell from some other character.

Personally, I would simply throw you out of my gaming group if you were to try this at my table. There is too little gaming time to lose it with people that try this kind of moves.

Andoran

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heliodorus04 wrote:

OP is correct that adventurers destroy any consistency in the economic model of RPGs.

But magic destroys any consistency in culture as we know it.
Imagine human beings if you could heal the consequences of violence.

Golarion doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it.
Homo Sapiens coexisted with Homo Neanderthal for about 5,000 years, and at the end of that period, in the stone age, Homo Neanderthal was wiped out. Yet in Golarion Orcs and Gnolls and Goblins all have civilizations that are allowed to exist together.

Golarion has over 4,000 years history and hasn't developed internal combustion, which is the easiest technology in the world to harness when you have the ability to heat stuff with magic.

It all devolves into esoteric naval-gazing.
The GM has to have a plan to make sense of it all.

The Roman empire had the Aeolipile and never did anything with it.

I don't have the correct references at hand but there is a tale than while one of the big temples on Rome hills was being constructed a crafter proposed a steam powered lifting machine. The Cesar of the time rewarded him for his cleverness but said "I can't use it, it will put a lot of people out of work and my peasant need to work to live. I don't want revolts."

Using magic or technology to solve engineering problems isn't automatically the only way to go. You need a willingness to use the magical/technological solution instead of other solutions. And the appropriate resources. One of the reasons why the Romans weren't interested in steam engines is that they hadn't access to easy sources of coal or wood. Roman technology - The energy constraint.

Golarion non magical energy sources have a similar problem: they are plagued by monsters (and the maps of the Inner Sea show relatively few wooded areas). We don't know if using large amounts of magical energy has aftereffect like magical pollution or draining of ambient magical energy, but we can assume that there is a problem.

Captain K. wrote:

That would work cinematically, the starving widow offering the item in order to pay for her muddy, wide-eyed urchins. It'd be a touching scene, the Paladin borrows the heirloom +1 Undead Bane Longsword and promises to restore the village.

On Golarion, that would be chaos. Any divine PC can roll up, cast a bit of Cure Disease and a few CLWs, chuck the poor woman 10gp and set the family back up.

You are forgetting a few things:

- the divine PC should have memorized the Remove disease spell;
- his deity should approve his use of it for free for a poor starving children;
- then he should beat the Caster Level check DC, something that isn't so automatic unless your CL is decidedly high;
- and even the mightiest cleric would be unable to cure more than a couple dozen persons even if he were devoting every level 3+ spell slots he had only to Remove Disease spells.

CLW is excessive for almost any wound a 1st level commoner can get with normal activities while surviving.

- * -

My playing group has made a rough estimate of the purchasing power of 1 gp. It is around 40-50 €.
500 € is a nice gift but it will solve nothing long term.

Magic item are pricey ... Well, the Leica APO Telyt R 1600mm f/5.6 telephoto lens did cost more than 2 million dollars. About 40.000 gp for something that is used for recreation.

A 20th level character has a suggested WBL of 880.000 gp. A capital of 44 million euro. Well, David Beckham while playing for the Paris Saint-Germain Football Club was paid 36 million euros (sponsors included).
His home in London is worth almost 9 million €, the home at Beverly Hills is valued about 17 millions €.

Adventurers are rich, but they are far from being the richest men on the planet.

Andoran

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I am surprised there is no citation of Leigh Brackett. While in theory Science Fiction, most of her books were Science Fantasy, especially those in Brackett's Solar System.

Some of the works by Clark Ashton Smith mixed science and fantasy, too.

Doing a good work when mixing science and fantasy in a game is hard, but it can be very rewarding when done well.
As an example I love the Shadowrun setting. Sadly the game rules have problems but it is a interesting game nonetheless.

Andoran

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wraithstrike wrote:

I don't think casting order matters. It does not say that "if a spell causes your size to change..". It says .."spells that change your size ...".

They look similar but a spell that changes your size means "if the spell is designed to change your size", not "if it spell actually changes your size during this casting of it..".

See the edit, that is what I was missing.

Animal growth allow polymorph spells that don't alter your size, but the general rules about polymorph disallow them, but the animal growth rule isn't a case of specific rule overruling a generic rule, it is an added limitation, as it say that effect that increase your size don't stack, while the polymorph rule is about polymorph and any spell that change your size.

The only problem left are all the spells that give you abilities "as if you were a size larger" or "add X to your reach" without being a polymorph effect or a size changing effect.
To often they seem only a tricksy way to avoid the limitation.

Andoran

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Nimoot wrote:
Cooperative Crafting is in the Valet Template for a familiar, it doubles how much gold you can work on an item by double... still trying to figure out the rest of the math...

Something about a trait that increase it and being a dwarf with the right deity and/or archetype I think. All those effects increase the base value of magic items that you can make in a day, so they would be increased by working a double speed and the cooperative crafting.

With a personal demiplane with the flowing time trait you can get another doubling.

PRD wrote:


Flowing Time: On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real. When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane's flow of time first, followed by the flow in the other plane.

About

Kayerloth wrote:


Heh so only 6 years give or take.

Never mind that for a caster level in this stratosphere said wizard probably has a demiplane or some other manner to 'I'll step in back for a sec, brb' and all but create the Item in an apparent few minutes aka make the crafting time as close to meaningless (Immortal/Ageless on a Timeless plane etc.) as it can get. He might very well be on a first name basis with the 'Greater God of Magic' who could literally just think the Item into existence. Hi welcome to Artifact Creation 101.

AFAIK no demiplane allow you to compress 6 years in a few minutes and, beside that, we are still speaking of 6 years of work from the point of view of the wizard. I am appalled bit the ease with which people hand wave working for 6 years without any pause. Immortal or not, working for 6 straight years confined in a small area isn't sane.

Andoran

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Feragore wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
A big disadvantage of Reincarnate is that, regardless of how cheap it is, the two Restorations remain a factor. A low-level party might be able to get the funds for a Reincarnate, but the equivalent of three Reincarnates? Overall, you still get hurt a lot by death. It's not huge, but it's worth keeping in mind.

While a Raise Dead and its two Restorations costs 7k. Like I mentioned in the OP, you can reincarnate twice and still come out with gold to spare over Raise Dead.

Mechanics wise, you're ignoring the physical trait bonuses. Natural armor, natural weapons (!) or even just better sight. Granted a kobold is still pretty bad, but that's why you can just reroll the table for another 3k total if it damages the build that much. A human doesn't even lose anthing; the feat and skill point isn't a physical trait.

Quote:
Plus, of those eight races, every single one is shunned in polite society. Have fun getting stuff thrown at you, Mister Kobold. Have fun getting trampled by horses, Mister Goblin. Have fun not being allowed near the nursery, Mister Bugbear (hell, bugbears might just get shot on sight).

That's entirely DM fiat. Somewhat mitigated too by the fact you're still you. That goblin is curiously well-mannered and not trying to eat the town's young. And he's also travelling with a party of experienced adventurers. Maybe, just maybe, he's not evil.

Nevermind the value compared to Resurrection. I'd sure as hell pay 9k less to Reincarnate if I happen to get Disintegrated. Even if the race is worse, I still have that 9k gold to try again two more times. Or use the gold to buy magic items. Or buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object.

Reincarnate wrote:
So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.
Disintegration wrote:


Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

A trace of fine dust isn't a small portion of the creature body.

- * -

The part where you return in "an entirely new young adult body" is way more powerful than the change in race. It is ticket for agelessness and a potentially unlimited lifespan.

Andoran

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Mydrrin wrote:

The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.

Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.

Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.

Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.

Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.

Sorry, but the requirement to make celestial Armor are fairly mild:

PRD - Ultimste Equipment wrote:

Celestial Armor

Price 22,400 gp; Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th; Weight 20 lbs.

This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Construction Requirements

Cost 11,350 gp

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good

Technically it even break the rule that the CL of an armor should be 3 times its enhancement bonus. If we follow that rules the CL should be at least 9.

PRD wrote:
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.

Thanks to LordSynos for pointing out the difference in Ultimate Equipment, I have missed it. That remove the special material argument, but not the sequence in which you craft an item and then enhance it.

Andoran

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Crozekiel wrote:


There is nothing in the rules for crafting magic items or for changing the material of magic items that even brings up order of operations. Literally nothing. If there was, one of you guys would have posted it in the last 3 pages you have been claiming it.

You can enchant a piece of mithra before it is made into an armor?

PRD -Creating Magic Armor wrote:

To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.
Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value.
Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

The rules are clear: you need the armor or its pieces before enchanting it. You can't enchant a piece of mithral with armor powers and then make it into armor.

Andoran

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master_marshmallow wrote:

Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.

If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.

Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".

Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:

PRD wrote:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.

Mithral say:

PRD wrote:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.

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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".
PRD - Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

It is fairly clear that the 5 fott step work only for the movement part when moving away from a threatened square.

PRD - Take 5-Foot Step wrote:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Again, it speak of moving.

When moving provoke an AoO? When you you move away from a threatened square.

PRD - Moving Through a Square wrote:


Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
...
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures have a special rule that allow them to move into a square occupied by a non helpless opponent. The same special rule say that that provoke an AoO that is separated from that provoked by the act of moving away from a threatened square.

The first citation explain that the 5' step only work for the AoO generated by moving out of a threatened square. Not for other actions.

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I agree with Calth for the inquisitor. I am less convinced for the druid.
I am not sure if choosing a domain as your nature bond count as having the domain feature.

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AJAG wrote:

@Diego Rossi,

Sorry, not to argue, just to point out that I said "innate to Yeth Hounds", now in essence I agree with you that animals can be trained to do more than just open doors, but that said, how many DM's will grant that innately or even at all to your Druids companion, a familiar or an Eidolon. Some DM's will and some will not. Unfortuantely it is not specifically covered in the rules to my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

But, and this is just 'my' opinion, a savage Yeth Hound would fail at opening doors, intelligent as it is, and without any indication of such training in the RotRL AP, makes no mention of it.
Would Nualia train them to do that? Perhaps! Again, up to the DM.

However,

Diego Rossi wrote:
The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.

OK, that seems pretty clear to me, but I understand how and maybe why you feel the 'panicked' rules do not work that way, but the RAW is fairly clear about "once they are out of (hearing)".
So if the Yeth is not howling and the PC's cannot hear it, it would seem to imply the effect wears off, or more specifically, "they can act as they want".

Now, I agree in that if you are facing a Yeth Hound and are struck by this panicked effect, it would continue to affect you as long as the "Source" of that threat is present, however, a threat on the other side of a door does not to me in and of itself cause you to keep running IMO.
I understand if you wish to adjudicate it this way but I think it could be a little bit harsh, and I suspect most players would agree.
I conceed that many would not play it this way, but according to the RAW, it could and probably should be implemented like that.

This could use some clarification from the friendly staff at Paizo.

Sorry, Diego, again, I am not arguing with you, I would still...

Your words (bold mine):

AJAG wrote:
My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.

The rules:

PRD wrote:
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. [Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

"They can act as they want" is very, very different from "the panicked effect would have effectively ended." plus "being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated."

The source of the fear is the Yeth hound not, the howling. And panicked don't require you to be out of sight and hearing of the source but of any danger. and the panic effect resume as soon as you see or hear any source of danger, not only if you see the Yeth hound.

And another citation for you, from page 563 of the CRB, exactlya bove the one you cited:

PRD wrote:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

plus

PRD wrote:


Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

The Yeth hound bay has a duration, its effect don't end because the hound has stopped baying.

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AJAG wrote:

Just to note this: from the CRB 563

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and
they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as
they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than
running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them
rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of
sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as
they want.
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented
from fleeing.

Of course, GM's can interperate this any way they want, but unless the Yeth was continually howling or you had Line-of-sight to them, I am thinking that your "vindictive DM" (your words not mine!) made sure that you couldn't close that door, otherwise you (being out of sight=yes, out of hearing range=maybe) could have tried to hold that door and then after the seven rounds of panic were over, act as you like.

My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.
Each DM to their own, but I try to make low level adventures fun but not deadly. Seems like the DM was having a bad day!

@questions, don't give up on Pathy, it is a good system with some flaws, but I believe this TPK has more to do with the way your DM wanted that encounter to go, rather harsh, I feel! Sorry, just my opinion.

Now another thing, a 6 Intelligence creature is smart compaired to your average animal, but does this necessarily mean that they know how to open doors? I don't think that knowledge is innate to Yeth Hounds!? I know this didn't happen but you mentioned it, so just say'n! This is arbitted by your respective DM, I think...

Cats and dogs know how to open doors. A barred door would have blocked the yeth hound if he was unable to break through it, but a simple door with a handle can be opened by several animals, albeit probably it would require at least 1 round and some dex based check.

An animal with 6 intelligence will be capable to open it.

Cat opening several doors

- * -

The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

- * -

Put aside the above points, from questions report the problem is the GM, not the rule system. It seem that he was gunning for a TPK.
Problem GM are problem GM, regardless of the system.

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

My major problem with uses per day isn't so much the fluff (of which I shall keep my opinion on it close to the vest, though it seems to differ from many in this thread)... It's the gameplay consequences.

In short.. It reinforces the fifteen minute work day. At least from what I've experienced. I know very few who would actually want to be the truly epic big damn heroes that continue on despite being tired and worn out.

I can understand resting for HP... But when entire parties are resting because people are out of x/day (this includes x/rounds, x/anything, x/etc), despite having good HP and casters still have a handful spells left... Totally breaks my verisimilitude.

I can get the tactical advantage of fighting the BBEG at totally topped off everything... But there's no effing thrill to the story when the heroes plow through a dungeon, rest for a few hours inside said dungeon, then go off to fight the final boss as pristine as the day they left town! And usually, due to how most of these 'Boss Fights' are designed, these fully fresh characters often trounce said boss... Because there's nothing in the module that states the boss would rather harass them while sleeping, than sitting in his sanctuary wringing his hands evilly and twirling his mustache.

Don't believe me? I've seen it, I've been in parties that do it. Several times. One of my worst groups would practically boycott and derail the game until they got to do it, which is not a good experience for a new GM (who was only doing it because none of the usual GMs wanted to, despite only having been playing for a year beforehand), which made her vow never to GM again, mainly due to the fact, that they vehemently argued with very raised voices they 'Should' be able to ONLY so the casters can re-prepare their spells, and the barb can get rage rounds ("By not letting us sleep, you're just trying to pull a TPK!"). After only ONE and a HALF combats at level 2 (they retreated, and the nature of the dream labyrinth prevents things from...

Puna'chong wrote:

My groups know that if they try to take a nap in the dungeon they're probably going to get ganked. So they've all got it in their minds that their shot at the haunted castle or enemy lair is either a full attack or they'll need to find a way to retreat. Which makes them conserve resources and use them smarter, and also gauge whether they need to beat a tactical withdrawal.

I mean, I'm not a total jerk and I will let them rest on occasion, especially if the dungeon is large and they've got an area relatively secure, but I also run my encounters with the idea that they're resource tests. If you blow all of your abilities on an encounter you're going to have a hard time on the next one; if you don't have abilities to blow that entire attrition factor goes out the window.

This ^

Maybe it is because all of the players in my group have learned to play with 1st ed. AD&D but we assume wandering monsters, the need to end a fight or retreat to a secure position and to have resources to fight at least one more time during the night or while returning to our secure base, but we rarely play the 15 minute adventuring day burning all our resources in 1 or 2 battles.

Infinite resources without limitations will be used every round, to the point that they will become very boring to use.

Infinite resources with a recovery time (think alchemist mutagen) will become use it in a fight, rest till you recover.

1 use for battle will have the players used as an example by Artemis argue that running out of the room/sight of the enemy and returning 1 round later is the same thing that entering a battle anew, so they should be able to use their powers again.

Problem players are always problem players.

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Squiggit wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Magus. A personalized spell list and he get almost nothing at a lower spell level (nothing with the spells in UM).
The summoner is a 9 spell levels class masquerading as a 6 spell levels class.
Yeah. I know the magus gets stuck with only 6 levels of spells... but that's not really relevant when I'm comparing it to the summoner or inquisitor (done on purpose because summoner and sacred huntsman inquisitor both do the hunter's job better than the hunter).

Comparing the spell list of a class with 6 level of spells to that of the summoner will always give you the impression that the other class spell list is lacking, but that isn't a problem of the other class spell list, it is a problem of the summoner spell list. 45% of the spells in his spell list in the APG are at a lower level than other classes.

Use the bard as a comparison, he only get 12% of his spells at a lover level than other classes.

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swoosh wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:

Good lord combat is slow enough.

I think the high damage is part of balancing marshals with magics as has been said.

A fight will last a very small number of rounds. Resolving what happen in a round is time consuming. That has its drawback.

The small number of round remove the option to use more complicated tactics or non swift in combat buffs. The slow resolution of a character action push the GM toward encounters with a small number of powerful enemies and that make the martial ability to continue to make attack as long as they have hp mostly irrelevant and advantage single massive attacks either with save or die spells or as the ability to deal large number of hp in a single attack for martial.

Changing that will require big changes to the mechanic of the game.

The one change I so wished had actually made it into the game was the idea to remove iterative attacks. Instead of making multiple attacks per round when your BaB hit the right level you would just add your weapon dice to the roll again.

1st level your long sword did 1D8+x but at 6th it would do 2D8+x. Made it SOOOO much easier to balance around and made vital strike, charge, power attack, etc. so much more valuable.
Plus balancing the HP's around that kind of damage output actually made evocation spells useful without needing massive amounts of feats, class dips.

Oh Well.

Also would let martial characters feel more mobile and less like turrets. Always felt silly to me that if an enemy is within five feet of my fighter I can turn him into lunchmeat, but if he's SIX feet away... well damn, I can barely even scratch him.

On the other hand the martials would do way less damage (the static bonuses are way more relevant than the weapon damage dice) and increasing the number of enemies as a way to balance the martials and spellcaster strengths would be even less of a option.

Currently the martial punching a hole in the line of mooks defending the beeg, downing 2 or 3 enemies in one round is feasible, especially if they have already been weakened by a friend. If we give them a single powerful attack they would be capable to kill only 1 enemy during their round.

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PRD wrote:

Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

It say it right into the rules. But, as usual, someone claim that what he don't like is "flavor text".

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Ascalaphus wrote:

@Artemis: when I tried it I used only one constant. It's still pretty easy.

---

Re: Globe of Invulnerability. By default emanations move with you, but a specific power always overrides the general rules. The Globe is an exception to the normal emanation spell rules. I see no ambiguity there.

Really?

The globe emanate from you.
You can move.
The globe can't move.
.....

The fix is simple: giving the spell a range of 0 and an Area of effect: 10' spherical emanation.

Andoran

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Lormyr wrote:
Diego, the globe is completely immobile. Carefully re-read the very first sentence describing the spell.

A row of text that completely contradict the other part of the description. Nice.

One of the two things is wrong.
An emanation centered on you move with you. The spell say the globe is immobile.

If it is immobile (and that is a good subject for a FAQ) it can be used to protect martials with a low will ST. The tank that don't use shield, protection from evil, mirror image and so on will appreciate it.

Edit:

PRD wrote:

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

So, an emanation move with the target, a spread don't. Magic circle against evil is an example of that.

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser wrote:


Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.

Decidedly it contradicts itself.

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I think that the implied question is: "The human get his dexterity bonus to AC?"

I would say that he get it. He see the drow making the attack, so he is aware of it.

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It is the cost of special inks, probably some of them with with costly colors and metal based.
The fluff I use is that part of the spell you are scribing is a diagram that is used to memorize it and that is needed to prepare the spell, that diagram should be made by special materials, like gold foil and other stuff. A spellbook is a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial]illuminated manuscript

where the images are needed to prepare the spells.

A scroll of a spell has a more advanced version of that diagram, one that contain the energy to activate it.

In the right conditions you can steal the special inks and quills from a shop or another spellcaster. Ask your GM about that.
Another way to get that stuffis capturing enemy spellbooks, but you can't use them until you comprehend and copy the spells.

Yes, I use those rules both as a GM and as a player, they are one of the limiters of a wizard power. I am playing in a fast paced campaign and some my 9th level magus WBL is locked in several captured spellbooks (worth more than 10.000 gp). As we are constantly adventuring I can't spend more than 2 hours/day learning new spells or copying them. I will have to spend more than 20 days to copy the spell I can use from those spellbooks.

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Scavion wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
and consider any unprotected spell components (or anything else similar in nature, really) being worn by pretty much any elemental unusable.

This whole dumb argument sprang up around this phrase which has absolutely no basis in the rules. Components are not rendered useless by being wet.

And just so we're touching all our bases.

Spell Component Pouch wrote:
Most spell component pouches are waterproof and can be strung onto a belt or bandolier.
So there we have it. Doesn't matter either way. Elementals can wear armor and other gear. It isn't destroyed by them wearing it since they don't deal damage or otherwise to objects they touch.

Actually that was my argument (for water and fire elemental only). For fire elemental that is very clear. They deal burn damage to things that touch them, from 1d4 for a smell one, to 2d10 for a large one. The spell component pouch and the stuff it draw for it will suffer that damage, and they wouldn't survive it. The pouch has a couple hp (unless it si made of special materials), most components not even 1 hp. The live spider for spider climb? It is not alive anymore. The mistletoe a druid use as a focus? Oops, charcoal.

Water elemental are a bit different. I think that they made things wet (not soaked). some item will have problems. The spider or the mistletoe? No. Some powder, paper and similar stuff? Yes.
The pouch is waterproofed, but when you draw the items to use them they can be damaged.

- * -

PRD wrote:


Water Mastery (Ex) A water elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. These modifiers apply to bull rush and overrun maneuvers, whether the elemental is initiating or resisting these kinds of attacks.

So the water elemental suffer some drawback for being out of the water.

In earlier version they were unable to move more than a few hundreds of feet from a body of water. The range was HD dependent.
Those little things in the creatures description, with some indication on their ecology and how they worked is something I miss in the modern bestiaries. Removing them allow Paizo to use a single page for a monster description, a thing that make easier to print them from the PDF, but it remove some cool information about the way to handle the creatures.

PRD wrote:


This translucent creature's shape shifts between a spinning column of water and a crashing wave.

"crashing wave". It seem that the water elemental is constantly falling to the ground and reforming. It has no in game effect, but saying that if it is out of the water it leave the ground wet seem reasonable.

For me it is is the same thing we do when walking, we leave footprint. It will be not enough to damage the elemental unless it stay away from the water for a long period, but enough to be noticeable

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Kwauss wrote:


wraithstrike wrote:


Yes I do agree the bard is performing, but not using the perform skills unless called for.

This just opens another can of worms - now a bard can do their 'whisper performance' if they only want to effect their adjacent comrades (which can get louder later). They now have an ability that's better than a spell (a partial Silent Spell), since spells need to be in a normal spoken voice. Maybe they can start with a visual performance (since it's quiet and allows you to sneak up on the bad guy) and switch to an audible one when people start to spread out during battle (it doesn't say you can't switch, only that you choose a mode when starting).

And I thought the conclusion is that it is using the perform skill (as it says so), but not requiring a check?

You just gave m,e a wicked idea to blow a vein of my GM.

Message + audible bard performance. Now he can use it at 100'+'/level while whispering.

LOL, I don't think he will allow that.

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sunshadow21 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
A third-party source really shouldn't be "close enough" in a rules debate.
In this case, though, they aren't making any new rulings, they are simply organizing things in a slightly different way that all but the pickiest of rules lawyers would simply gloss over. So, in this case, it really is close enough, if even the people doing the formatting isn't officially Paizo.

Reorganizing the content of the different tables, including in them elements that aren't included in the rules, is rewriting the rules.

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The one to which the following citations are the answer:

PRD wrote:

At 6th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level .... functions as elemental body II

At 10th level ... functions as elemental body III.

At 12th level ... functions as elemental body IV.

PRD wrote:


Elemental Body I

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of a Small air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. Elemental abilities based on size, such as burn, vortex, and whirlwind, use the size of the elemental you transform into to determine their effect.

Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.

Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to earth glide.

Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.

Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Constitution and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.

Elemental Body II

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5

This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body III

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6

This spell functions as elemental body II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +6 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body IV

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Huge air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 120 feet (perfect).

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 120 feet.

The druid get only what is cited in the spells.

Scavion wrote:
Lifat wrote:

Druids are nowhere near as powerful in pathfinder as they were in 3.5...

And they are definitely less powerful than the wizard and might be slightly less powerful than the cleric, but yes... Even in pathfinder the druid is a strong class.
Hard to say. Druids can get a form of immortality at 5th level. They're still easily more powerful than a Cleric, but still on par with Wizards.

What form of immortality?

If you mean reincarnation, it is a 4th level spell and can only be cast on another person.

Andoran

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A bonus that came from the same source don't stack, Trapfinding+trapfinding = trapfinding.

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We are speaking of high priced items. My estimate is that 1 gp is worth between 25 and 50 €, 20 to 40 £.
So 500-1.000 £ for a 1st level potion.

While I agree that the price of the magic items should be affected by the demand, in reality we would see very few shop with any of those items on the shelves and only in major cities (remember, the largest city in the Inner Sea has 300.000 inhabitants). They would be all items that are produced when someone order them or at most a shop would have a few of the most common stockpiled for the people that want them.

That would both push up the price (you are ordering it, you can pay for it) and push it down (finally we have a costumer, let's keep it).

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Actually Razmir is level 19 without any mythic tier.

You can substitute Arazni if you want, or Geb.

Andoran

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LazarX wrote:
Artanthos wrote:


Individuals of that level of power tend to be extremely long lived, allowing a disproportionate number to accumulate.

On the other hand they also tend to be targets of people in the same level of power, who in many cases will find ways to kill their targets permanently. That's a heavy limiting factor.

Keep in mind there are ways to cut people off from their mythic abilities.... Severance comes to mind.

Only if they are a big problem for the other guy. If the character want to stay home and control his territory or even slowly expand, he will use minions, not risk himself directly against similarly empowered characters.

It is what Razmir is doing.
The queen of the elves see him as a menace, but she don't attack him directly, nor Razmir barge in Kionin to slay her. A 20th level character in Taldor will hardly care about a 20th level character in Varisia unless they are clashing over something. You fight with your neighbours or with people that has something that interest you, not with a random guy 3.000 km away.

A buffed group of 5-6 level 14 characters can easily kill a unbuffed and not fully equipped 20th level character, so those character will have bases that reduce the risk of scry and fry tactics (not that I think that they work as well as some people claim). No one can keep being fully buffed 24 hours every day forever or want to do it. You want to be able to bathe, take a nap and so on. That mean that higher level characters will go around slaying people only when it is needed, not when they hear that another 20th level character live somewhere. And that is one of the reasons why they are less influential than they power warrant.

Andoran

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About the OP post.
Until the advent of mechanization 90% of the population was working in agriculture to raise enough food for the population. Beside plant growth I don't see anything that directly impact cultivation. Create water can help a bit, but the quantity produce isn't so great (as someone pointed out in another thread a single 1st level caster will produce less water than a wind powered pump. Sure, you can produce it even in a area where there isn't a water table accessible for the pump, but you need a large number of casters to produce the water needed for a single village.

an animated plow that do the same work of a team of ox will cost 2.000 gp (small animated object).
Actually it will do less than the oxes. With the oxes you can use them to pull a wagon after you have finished plowing, the animated plow will do only a single work.

Maybe you could commission a large animated object in the form of a cart to do all the work of a farm tractor. 12.500 gp. My rough estimate is 1 gp = 25 €. That is 312.500 €. Very few people can afford that. And to build the construct you need a 5th level wizard (Craft wondrous item at level 3, craft weapon and armor at level 5, 5th level bonus feat for craft construct).

Then there is the problem that you raise your character level very slowly or the hard way, earning XP. So to get a 5th level wizard without adventuring we need to have him train for a lot of years. Probably he would be a 40+ years old guy in a age where most people will die of disease before becoming so old.

Andoran

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Claxon wrote:

Killing people is actually pretty ineffective for keeping them gone most of the time, as you've noticed.

This is why you use spells like Trap the Soul or the Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Trap the Soul locks their soul into a gem if used successfully. Combined with beguiling gift (heightened) you don't risk destroying the soul trap when using the trigger object method.

Helm of Opposite alignment turns you antithetical enemy into your ally., at least potentially. At the very least, they'll no longer be interested in whatever they had been doing as their personality is no completed inverted.

Alignment, not personality.

He was a CE individual that loved his son and like to play with puppies? Now he is a LG individual that love his son and like to play with puppies.
He was a LG guy that hated your guts? He is now a CE individual that hate your guts.
He will regret his old actions, if he hated you because you were a sadistic torturer he will probably change his opinion of you fairly fast, but if he hated you because you killed his betrothed he probably will go on hating you because you killed his betrothed.

Andoran

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Zark wrote:

More races than humans get the fc bonus.

Human, half elf half orc, so 3 out of 7 basic races. 42% of the basic races. If someone is playing "maximize my character" with this kind of masterpiece he will do it completely, I think, taking the races that pay less for it.

Andoran

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It don't say that you can make untrained skills checks as trained, so you can't.

Honestly it is a very badly thought ability. You lie so well that the whole universe decide to change to make your lies true? No thanks.

PRD wrote:

Pageant of the Peacock (Act, Dance)

Your elegant movements cause you to seem to be more than you are.

Prerequisite(s): Perform (act) or Perform (dance) 4 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 2nd-level spell known.

Effect: By gracefully weaving your body through subtle forms and postures you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement. For the duration of the effect, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks, and may attempt a Bluff check in place of an Intelligence check or Intelligence-based skill check.

The subtle changes in your movements also confer a +4 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to appear to be someone of a higher station (an aristocrat, merchant prince, or even a queen).

Use: 1 bardic performance round per 10 minutes of the effect's duration.

Activation: 1 standard action.

Reading the first part of the effect it seem logic to apply it to charisma based skills as "you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement", then it go on and say that convincing others of your "breeding, eloquence, and refinement" give you a bonus to your intelligence based checks, i.e. craft checks, knowledge checks, linguistic, appraise and spellcraft. Like any of those cared about your breeding, eloquence or refinement (with the possible exception of linguistic when trying to use it to communicate in a language that you don't know).

Incomprehensible.

Andoran

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Covent wrote:

I am sorry, but I strenuously object to this. "Logic" or "Realism" dictating rules for a game leads to horrible game balance.

If we used logic we would say "Hey Mr. 20th level with a trait for swim, a feat for swim, 32 Strength, max swim ranks and Swim as a class skill! You are wearing full-plate carrying 200 pounds of gear and holding a shield. NO SWIM FOR YOU!"

Why?

Because "Realism lol" or "It's logical lol".

In any game where people are capable of falling from orbit and walking it off, or taking magma walkies logic and realism have left the building.

Now internal consistency and balance, those are important, but D&D is not and has never really been a simulator game, so the argument should never be "Well in the real world" or "Well this is how it works in my real world experience".

This is of course my opinion, but I believe "Logic" and "Realism" are what got us the Rogue.

actually, realism has show that it is possible to do it. There area few video in internet of that:

In Japanese armor
plate armor
And those are normal men, not 20th level characters.

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