Simple question, can Animal Shamans use thier +2 to wildshaping to effect thier elemental shape by taking the shape of an animalistic elemental?
reasoning:
Druid wildshape penalty to everything but animal-2 for 8 levels (when you hit lvl 14 and finally no longer suffer the penalty as far as what you can shape into) so -16 points
Benifit of being a shamen and wildshaping. +2 for 2 levels (as far as what you can change into) so +4 points. (bc it only gives you a bonus up to level 8, at which point your maxed in your animal choices, and you cant wild shape period till 6 anyways))
Delay to wild shaping period for 2 levels -2 points
net loss by choosing to be an animal shamen (in regards to wild shaping) is -14 points.
Now i know you cant break everything down into a point system like above, but it still seems like a rather large loss in the wildshaping department.... a 2 level delay to wildshaping period for a whole 2 levels of bonus use (understandable i would think) its that -2 to everything else that lasts long after your benifiting (as far as what you can shape into) that kinda hurts in the long run.
Now if you could use the wild shape to change into an elemental animal shape, (so at level 8 i could change into say, a large elemental earth bear) it would balance out a bit more, as it would still restrict me up till level 14 in every other shape, but also give me my bonus in my specification till lvl 10. using the point system it works out like this.
reasoning:
Druid wildshape penalty to everything but animal, -2 for 8 levels =16 points
Delay to wild shaping period -2 points
Benefit of being a shamen +2 for 4 levels=8 points
total -10 points.
there is another way of looking at it below as well
alternate reasoning:
without shaping into animal elementals
-2 delay to wildshaping (lvl 4-vs lvl6)
-2 delay to maxing wild shaping options (lvl 12vs vl14)
+2 lvl gain to maxing one animal (lvl 8 vs lvl 10)
Net loss, 2
With shaping into animal elementals
-2 delay to wildshaping (lvl 4 vs lvl 6)
-2 Delay to maxing wild shaping options (lvl 12 vs lvl 14)
+2 lvl on maxing one animal (lvl 8 vs lvl 10)
+2 on maxing elemental of one shape (lvl 10 vs lvl 12)
balanced
Now i know your gonna say ask my gm what he reasons, but im just looking for some input before then, id love to get jasons take on it of course though i doubt he'll see this (i think he wanted to eliminate plant and elemental shaping for shamens completely anyways, which would have completely nerfed the shamen)
and yes i know totemic summons is a big boost, but i think that balances out with the fact that you have a penalty that last 8 levels for a bonus that effect you for 2 (4 if you do the elemental animal thing) plus the loss of the thousand faces (albeit it its a crappy feat, but its still a loss coupled with all the other net losses)
they also receive a permanant -2 to their wildshape which in effect not only delays their use of the ability by 2 levels, but means they cna not use it effectivly till lvl 14 2 levels later then normal. In total they suffer a -4 level penalty to their ability.
the only bonuses they get that dont replace others are the wild empathy+4 to one specefic animal class 2 additional feats in replace of their venom immunity, which are based around their "animal" which is outdated by the time they reach lvl 8. Oh and "totemic transformation" which is at max 20min per day at level 20.
So to sum up. WOlf shamen receives the following
1.-4 druid level to the very aspect in which their most specialized
2. The small bonus they do gain to wildshape outdated 2 levels after
they gain it since their progression with said animal ceases at lvl
8
3. Ability to partially transform for a whole minute per level
4. bonus feats that largely only effect the character while wildshaped
or totemicly transformed.
5. Wild empathy +4 to one class of animal that usually consists of a
whole 4-6 animals
6. Totemic summons replaces their 1000 faces ability, for a faster
summon and boost to their HP, for their chosen animal of course.
Of all of those, those bonuses become largely inefective at lvl 8 when they can no longer change into stronger versions of their chosen creature, while the loses they sacrifice for said bonuses take effect until lvl 14. In addition the one truely "powerful" feat their totemic summons of course can at max summon a dire wolf, which means by about lvl 10-12ish it no longer makes sense to summon canines and its bonus effects are no longer viable.
Your effective level is Druid level of (Current Level +2) for canine forms.
Your effective level is Druid level of(Current level -2) for all else
The overall benefit seems to be only gaining an extra two hours on duration on canines and getting huge and diminutive canine forms 2 levels early. The cost is quite high.
It would be good if the Beast Shape moved up IV for canines and let you choose Winter Wolf as an option (Large Magical Beast) or other canine like creatures
Aye my thoughts exactly, however an official intention would be appreciated. because this further nerfs the shamen i was considering making for PFS. Or asi siad you could use it to take a "canine" elemental form as it says in various places elemntals can take what ever form they wish. i dont think the stats would overlap, you would just gain the elemental stat increases. And it says animal specificly, i've seen in various other posts that it was never intended for wildshape to take magical beasts shape,form, w/e
a Canine is not an elemental. You change into full elementals. The canine form is maxed out at level 6 since beastshape 3 is as powerful as wildshape gets. The canine portion refers only to the Beast Shape aspect of wildshape, not plant or elemental
"At 6th level, a wolf shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2"
So in effect, this is a permanant -2 to all my wild shaping, for a +2 for a whole 2 levels? do you understand what i'm trying to say?
I believe the intent is using your new effective levels to determine the size and shapes.
Relative Druid Wolf Shaman Forms:
At 6th level, Huge or Diminutive Wolf as beast shape III, Small or Medium other animals as beast shape I
At 8th level, a Small elemental as elemental body I, Large or Tiny other animals as beast shape II
At 10th level, Huge or Diminutive other animals as Beast shape III, a Medium elemental as elemental body II, or a Small or Medium plant creature as plant shape I.
At 12th level, Large elemental as elemental body III or a Large plant creature as plant shape II.
At 14th level, Huge elemental as elemental body IV, Huge plant creature as plant shape III.
but it specificly says when changing into a CANINE form, so at 8th level, do i change into a canineish elemental? or do i basicly suffer a penalty and lose my bonus since its an elemental and not an animal?
well, after some time away and more toying with the Wolf shamen i'm building i've raised a few more questions that i can't quite answer myself, and would like some opinions on.
1. Looking over wild shaping, and the enhanced wild shaping of the animal shamens i've noticed something slightly upsetting.
WIld Shape text:
At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape functions as elemental body I.
At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as plant shape I.
At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as plant shape II.
______________
At 6th level, a wolf shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
Now according to that, after having waited til 6th level for wild shape, the bonus it offers is invalidated at lvl 8. If not sooner depending upon the GM as there are no larger then medium wolves (could apply the "huge" template to it depending on GM) However at 10th level there is no more beast shape ability and i cannot in effect take the shape of a canine, only an elemental (well i can but it would still only function as beast shape III) so do i lose that +2 to druid level for changing into a canine when i reach level 8? The only solution i could think of is changing into an "elemental" canine as elementals can take any shape, however for the most part i only see references to druids taking humanoid elemental shapes.
2. Regardless of weather i can take the "elemental" canine change. What are the new ability adjustments for the bestiary 2 elementals such as lightening, Magma, Mud, and ice for the "elemental body" spell?
I know the 1st one may not have an official answer though i'd love one, but opinions are still greatly appreciated.
I've only recently joined, and though the world is still being forged the community is great and there are some splendid idea's floating around. If your interested in playing in a living involving world, and maybe halping shape it, pls come by and play a bit!
Giving that while in wild shape a druid, that could normally speak any number of languages can do nothing but make strange animals sounds, I think an animal companion can learn to understand any number of languages but can never hope to speak a single one.
I'm in agreement here as well, though i love the idea of a talking magical companion to some extent, i beleive it misses out on the core features of being an ANIMAL companion. I've always thought of mine (not played pF persay yet but in D&D anyways) as beloved pets, and prefered them non speaking for rp reasons, after all whats better then sending your faithful and loyal, but 3int wolf into a dangerous situation (such as down a trapped corridor) only to have him come back, drop the item in your hand, lick yur hand after you rub his head, only to turn your back on him and turn around to find him pissing on your bed role (wolf grinning on the inside"i told you not to send me places you wont go yourself in the past! take that you ****")
However still leaves one question up in the air, which i know may or may nor be resolvable, but if a druid has a natural weapon (say claws via the aspect of the beast feat) can they take improved natural weapons?
If you mean Improved Natural Attack, no. Under the current rules of Pathfinder Society, no feats from the Bestiary are allowed to be taken by the PCs (Animal Companions are the exception, which they can only take those listed under druid). This may change with the next major revision, which I think they are working on now. No ETA on it though.
The only deviation from the PDF rules for Pathfinder Society is the sticky post on the general board about GM/Player credit( the 1 and 1 rule)
after looking through the forums and various other places, i kinda feel let down now :/ though i can by all means play my half orc wolf shamen else where, in PFS he would have a hard time competing, namely due to the lack of bestiary feats for either himself or his companion (i had intended to make a completly feral half orc with the bite halforc feat/race trait (legal) and use improve natural attack (hoping it would carry over to wildshape as well) it would also make my companion infinitly weaker without being able to gain the eldritch claws and other various creature feats that would enable it to combat various unnatural enemies.
Also looks like a natural weapon ranger is out of the question as well in part bc of these regulations :/
Looks like you guys were right (Shar Tahl and and Sean FitzSimons). Consider my words eaten.
:)
Jason Nelson wrote:
Eben TheQuiet wrote:
The only answer to that question is that they missed it - which, again, I don't believe is the case.
It is the case.
Schooled. Ouch.
No need to apologize for being frustrated. I didn't do my homework before-hand and do a search. That's my mistake. If you've answered his elsewhere, then i apologize for beating you over the head with it... if it helps any, I did it out of ignorance. Not any feelings that you or anyone who has contributed to the Paizo books are doing a poor job.
ehh you and me both, i could have sworn i couldn't find it, however i maybe only looked through the first 5 pages of results instead of doing a deeply intensive search. I do apologize for bringing it up though.
However still leaves one question up in the air, which i know may or may nor be resolvable, but if a druid has a natural weapon (say claws via the aspect of the beast feat) can they take improved natural weapons?
I. Druids can use them, sure, but by RAW they're unavailable to the player since they're in the Bestiary. You will see a few specific instances in the advanced player's guide that allows players to take this feat. The shapeshift ranger is a perfect example.
II. Not entirely sure what you're asking here. If your DM allows you to take improved natural weapon (claws) it's only going to function when you qualify for the feat; as in, when you have claws. Keep in mind that Claws, Talons, Bite, and Slam are the four most common natural attacks you'll see when wild shaping.
I understand that of course it would have to carry over to the same animal attack when shifted, but would it truely do that? in my opinion they would, but with few specific exceptions there is really nothing stating that it effects your WildShape form, and i havn't seen other examples of creatures keeping their feats (with those few specific exceptions) when transformed.
Quote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
I see where you two are coming from, but your wild shape does get worse at 6th level, where the difference between 4th & 5th level is an hour of duration. At higher levels that won't mean much, but it's a tangible deduction in power.
I don't think you actually reduce the duration. Just like uses per day, I'd leave duration as "druid level". I believe the only element they meant to change was "What can I turn into and how powerful is it". I could be wrong about the duration though.
both are valid points, however for this simple purpose they would fall under house rules as it would vary from one GMs interpretation to another. However what i do wish to know is weather or not its gained at lvl 4 or 6, and i believe a valid point has been made for its gain at lvl 4 based upon other clases (namely the 10 other druid archetypes that DO NOT gain wild shape at lvl 4 and instead lvl 6. I do not see the developers wanting to push a archetype intended for shape shifting back and instead believe they would have left it at lvl 4 with bonuses and minuses to their ability starting at 6.
Explanation on how this works IC.
You are the wolf shaman Sirius, for your first four levels you are trained as all druids are in the way of nature, your bond grows with all of nature, however you have felt the tugs of your animal companion deep within your soul and feel a kinship with your canine friend and others of his kind, also having realized at lvl 2 that you could grow certain animalistic traits at will. At Level 5 you embrace your canine tendencies, communing with your wolf and seeking more of the feral power growing in you, BUT, at a price, this level has been a level of deep focus at the expense of your bond with other parts of nature, your focus on wolves and other canines for the past level has left you somewhat alienated from some of the other creatures of the world. Though your bond with the wolf is strong, the pull of the rest of nature is not as strong, and as a result you can't change as you once did.
EDIT: Well in the time i was writing this up and looking through core rules and various other things, a god has spoken, you can either disregard the above or read it and take it into effect, however the issue has been resolved, albeit, i'm sad to hear the result :(
Ehh idk if that works or not but makes some sense to me.
and thank you all for you thoughts and comments, tbh the Shamens leave quite a few questions unanswered... as a matter of fact, i have ANOTHER QUESTION/discussion!
"A wolf shaman can use wild empathy with canines as a full-round action with a +4 bonus."
can shamans not use wild empathy with other animals? or simply doesn't receive a bonus when not using empathy on non-(insert animal type)'s
Well, having grown up and been raised on D&D 2ed. I recently joined a group playing 4ed. Its ok, but i crave... no i NEED that old school feeling back in my life, so i'm switching over to pathfinder.
Now here is where the fun begins. I'm currently creating a wolf shamen using the information available on d20pfsrd.com , Though this is highly limiting, for the time being it is the only rescource available to me and is doing relativly well if a bit hard to wade through. I'm also of course using the guide to pathfinder society organized play to insure my character falls within it regulations.
questions:
1..PENDING ANSWER Wildshape: I've read in various places on the forums that supposably shamens dont gain the ability to cast wildshape till they are lvl6. However by the wording on d20pfsrd.com it seems you do get wildshape, however at lvl 6 it only functions as lvl 4 wildshape unless with the chosen creature (wolf) where it then acts as a lvl 8 wildshape. I'd like to know PFS ruling on this.
2.PENDING ANSWER Animal Companion Questions
I. Druid trick: Is the bonus trick provided by this available to teach them combat training/riding all together? or can only be used to teach individual tricks at a time?
II.Feats: If they become intelligent (3 int) do they retain any previously taught tricks none the less?
III. Languages: I understand that not having any intelligence means it can't speak etc etc, however its stated that Druids can Know sylvan, the language of wild animals, do wolfs understand that? and better yet can i understand the wolf if i take sylvan?
3.PENDING ANSWER Monster/Animal Feats and natural weapons:
I: Can druids use them? I understand their mainly only meant for wild animals etc etc, However as i intend to use a natural weapons (claws) could such things as inproved natural weapon be taken as feats?
II: If so do the bonuses they convey while not wildshaped carry over to my wildshape form?
ANSWERED4. Weapons profeciancy: I know its not specificly listed however as a javelin is a form of spear, can druids use it...
In addition new question.
4.After several perusals of the available companions, i recently stumbled upon a nasty little trinket of info via d20pfsrd.com.
namely that my wolf, is second not only to the lion, but to a little known dog breed known as Bear dog.
Now, this dog is a beast, i mean it leterally could tear apart just about anything never mind with animal companion buffs/increases ontop of it. Now my question is if that dog is part of the core rules/acceptable PFS documents. If so are we allowed to make wolf breeds as well? or supplement dire wolf in? I have no intentions of using the bear-dog (namely bc i can't shamanize with it, but also bc it just seems uncool/non cannon that there is a canine animal companion stronger then a wolf)
Edit: above is still open for discussion though no longer needed, after carefully comparing the wolf and Bear-dog i realized that its starting stats are better and its advancement faster (upgrade to L size at lvl 4 instead of 7(wolf size up)) BUT, it gains less stats with its size change, and is effectivly a few points weaker then the wolf after its size/evolution at lvl 7. as well as being slower.
ahhhh your quite correct, i mistakenly cited it wrong originally and stuck with it (read as: i've attempted to cram god knows how much knowledge about this game into my head in 24 hours in my eagerness to create a character and kill something)
And i beleive you may be correct, going to go scour the forums again, but i dont know if it would be applicable to humanoid PCs with a natural weapon. But i do beleive it should be, as only one class has an actual feat to improve their "natural" attack ability and thats the ranger with the natural weapon style selected.
"Natural Weapon
If the Ranger selects natural weapon style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Aspect of the Beast*, Improved Natural Weapon**, Rending Claws*, and Weapon Focus. At 6th level, he adds Eldritch Fangs* and Vital Strike to the list. At 10th level, he adds Multiattack** and Improved Vital Strike to the list."
I would argue that as the ranger gains the ability to choose "aspect of the beast" (without having to be able to wild shape) that a class that already has the capability to use feats such as "aspect of the beast" as well as the various other things like totemic transformation and even the ability to transform into a natural animal that would use those abilities would enable them to select certain such feats as well...
However i know not what effect this may have on play balancing, and as such is why i'm asking for input before i start a build based on this nevermind trying to bring it into PFS.
PS. As you can see above D20pfsrd.com made the same mistake as i, and may have led to my original confused. as the ** means "** These feats are from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game core rules and are added to the feat section of this site". However they have no such feat listed and instead have improved natural attack.
It is pathfinder society specific as i intend to use this character for play, hopefully at cons, as such i need PFS answers to these questions instead of the standard "ask your GM"
PS. I have no GM as of yet
What he means is that there is no deviation from the Core rules on these items and as such the 'PFS answer' is the Core Rules answer. Except that Improved Natural Attack is explicitly disallowed in Chapter 13 of the Guide to Organized Play.
I haven't had much experience with druids or the areas you are asking about to really offer much in the way of answers except that looking around in the Core Rule book it seems that Monks are proficient with both javelin and shortspear thus the answer to that question would be no.
looking over the pathfinder society rules and stuff again i can't find any mention of it outlawing improved natural weapon, as natural weapon is part of the core feats and the only core rule feats out lawed are
"• Brew Potion (Alchemist PCs select Extra Bombs at
1st level instead)
• Craft Magic Arms and Armor
• Craft Rod
• Craft Staff
• Craft Wand
• Craft Wondrous Item
• Forge Ring
• Leadership
• Scribe Scroll (Wizard PCs select Spell Focus at 1st
level instead)
Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section
of the magic items chapter in the Pathfinder RPG Core
Rulebook are legal for play.
Be sure to check Chapter 13"
i'm using using version 3.02 updated on 10-7-10 which i downloaded last night, unless i somehow downloaded the wrong version i can not find head nor tails of it stating natural improved weapons are unallowed.
however main question was weather they are applicable to humans, namely humans with bestial weapons. (claws, bites, etc etc)
It is pathfinder society specific as i intend to use this character for play, hopefully at cons, as such i need PFS answers to these questions instead of the standard "ask your GM"
Well, having grown up and been raised on D&D 2ed. I recently joined a group playing 4ed. Its ok, but i crave... no i NEED that old school feeling back in my life, so i'm switching over to pathfinder.
Now here is where the fun begins. I'm currently creating a wolf shamen using the information available on d20pfsrd.com , Though this is highly limiting, for the time being it is the only rescource available to me and is doing relativly well if a bit hard to wade through. I'm also of course using the guide to pathfinder society organized play to insure my character falls within it regulations.
questions:
1. Wildshape: I've read in various places on the forums that supposably shamens dont gain the ability to cast wildshape till they are lvl6. However by the wording on d20pfsrd.com it seems you do get wildshape, however at lvl 6 it only functions as lvl 4 wildshape unless with the chosen creature (wolf) where it then acts as a lvl 8 wildshape. I'd like to know PFS ruling on this.
2. Animal Companion Questions
I. Druid trick: Is the bonus trick provided by this available to teach them combat training/riding all together? or can only be used to teach individual tricks at a time?
II.Feats: If they become intelligent (3 int) do they retain any previously taught tricks none the less?
III. Languages: I understand that not having any intelligence means it can't speak etc etc, however its stated that Druids can Know sylvan, the language of wild animals, do wolfs understand that? and better yet can i understand the wolf if i take sylvan?
3. Monster/Animal Feats and natural weapons:
I: Can druids use them? I understand their mainly only meant for wild animals etc etc, However as i intend to use a natural weapons (claws) could such things as inproved natural weapon be taken as feats?
II: If so do the bonuses they convey while not wildshaped carry over to my wildshape form?
4. Weapons profeciancy: I know its not specificly listed however as a javelin is a form of spear, can druids use it profeciantly?
I know thats alot of questions, and maybe some of its been brought on by my lack of reference material at the moment. However some clariification would be greatly appreciated, Thankyou in advance.
