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Devilkiller's page

2,504 posts (2,507 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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The flexibility in spell selection with the Herald Caller could probably be pretty nice, but the Evangelist grants more combat bonuses. There are also other PCs in the party, not just summoned monsters, and those PCs might resent the summoned monsters less if the PCs get some buffs too.


Sure, I guess that taking Flagbearer early is nice since it helps the Magus and Skald as well as you and your summons. I'd still aim for Augment Summoning longer term though. Maybe you could think about something like this?

Evangelist (Flag)
1st - Flagbearer, Combat Reflexes
3rd - Sacred Summons
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
9th - Augment Summoning
11th - Discordant Voice (+1d6 sonic damage)
13th - Summon Good Monster (add Legion and Shield Archons to your list)

Another option due to the amount of downtime available in Kingmaker could be to take Craft Wondrous Items instead of Combat Reflexes (shuffling other feats around a bit). That could potentially cut the rather high cost of Banner of the Ancient Kings in half.


Are you guys saying that the armor spikes would do additional damage on top of whatever you deal with your unarmed strike, Bite, etc while grappling? If so I never noticed that and wonder exactly what damage you'd deal. I mean, armor spikes do 1d6 damage, but would you add your Str mod? Half your Str mod? No Str mod?


I think it would be even worse to destroy an altar.

However, Monks usually have a high Wisdom, so I'd think that they should be able to see past this sort of stuff and understand the ways of the world. That would give me the impression that the PC probably "knows better" but persists in being a jerk just to satisfy his angst and self pity.

If the PC also can't talk and just walks around being silently antagonistic about religious matters that might aggravate rather than relieve the irritation this stuff could cause. Then again, maybe you're such a great roleplayer that instead of thinking, "Man, I wish this jerk would cut it out" people will think, "Wow, that's such a unique portrayal of the anguish caused by the Evil policies of Nidal. It inspires me to explore the darker side of imagination and embrace the concept of the anti-hero."

If the idea is just, "This might aggravate you, but it isn't Evil, so you can't tell me to stop!" I'm not sure that will go over as well though.


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Scientific Answer: This probably isn't really happening, but if you come to suspect that the player might be rolling the dice in some special way so as to influence the outcome I guess you could try a dice rolling tower.

Superstitious Answer: Have people touch the lucky player's dice and then call out low numbers as he rolls.

Spiteful Answer: Have all the monsters focus on killing the amazing PC who never misses before he can attack them.


I too will chime in to recommend the Mythic Agile template which gives the monster two turns at separate points in initiative. Having the monster take two turns in a row (or maybe even 3-4 with surprise?) and kill a PC before the PC even gets to act seems less fun to me.

I'm not sure if there's any Mythic ability which gives a monster two pools of hit points, but you might want to consider that too since PCs are often optimized for causing lots of damage quickly. I guess you could even do something weird like have the monster automatically rise as an undead version of itself right after it is killed (basically two monsters in the place of one)

Other similar ideas could include a monstrous "brain" or slug-like gut parasite which emerges from a slain monster and starts flying/crawling/swimming around blasting the party with magic or psionic powers or maybe trying to infect them and make them the next BBEG.


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Unless the goblins have Plane Shift I'd assume that the party could probably get the bag back though it might require some work or perhaps some concessions - "Roofus hide bag and not give it back unless you bring him cake! Magic cake with explosive candles! You also call him King Roofus now!"

I guess Locate Object might be useful in those situations. It was one of the first 2nd level spells I took with my first 3e PC - "Kazaan Dhal never loses his keys!"


I'd imagine that often the DM and players haven't discussed ammo, encumbrance, or rations and sometimes might have at least slightly different assumptions about what's "normal".


Getting better at melee can be easier than getting better at ranged when you're constrained on feats. However, you should probably know whether your DM will be enforcing the soft cover rules against reach weapons. If so that doesn't make them bad, but it would make them less than ideal for attacking from behind summoned monsters. Taking a -4 on attacks could be particularly troublesome when you're trying to use Power Attack.

I still don't see the appeal of Herald Caller over Evangelist unless you just want to be more flexible with your spell selection, but if the idea of calling heralds appeals to you more than that of preaching Erastil's virtues you should still do fine. Maybe it is just tough to trust that the summoned monsters can get things done for you, but Kingmaker is actually very well suited to a summoning focused caster, and a +3 bonus to hit and damage (or maybe more with BadBird's build) would be a big benefit for summoned monsters, the Magus, and the Skald. The usefulness of Inspire Courage is proportional to the number of attacks the party generates, and a party with summoned monsters can generate a lot.


I'm glad you liked the builds. Evangelist would actually stack OK with Skald since the bonuses you'd grant would be different. Inspire Courage grants a competence bonus to attacks and damage whereas Weapon Song adds enhancement bonuses or other enchantments to weapons.

You could be effective with various different builds and archetypes. It is mostly just a matter of deciding what appeals to you.

@Dave Justus - I'd agree that Inspire Courage is probably more generally useful than Weapon Song. It is the Cleric who would potentially have Inspire Courage though, not the Skald. Of course the Skald could change to a Bard, but I think the Skald's Rage Powers have some really interesting possibilities (beat DR/good, improve AC, pounce, etc)


Yeah, one of my PCs might get the ability to Animate Objects from taking Divine Source (mythic ability). He's Chaotic, so he'd have to take the Chaos domain, and that automatically gives you Animate Objects if you reach 6th tier.

The PC is a Viking, and I couldn't think of anything he'd probably want to animate besides a ship. Since this particular ship would need to carry a woolly mammoth it might as well be as large as possible. At least the mammoth in question has Narrow Frame though.


That anime idea leaves me with a lot of other ideas best left unsaid. None of them involve the Kraken Caller archetype for Druids though, really - ("I will bring the Balance back, you servants of extreme alignments! Let me show you how!")


The Bird and Dog gained by the Huntmaster don't seem bad to me, especially since they gain some bonus abilities like being able to make Dirty Trick or Trip attempts after a successful hit. The fact that your companions get to share your Challenges could also be helpful. The auto-flanking at 11th level also comes online a little late but could be cool once it is in play.

I'd think Boon Companion should work OK since it says: "Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar."


If my computer came to life that would be kind of weird, but since it is a sub $200 Chromebook I guess that the value of having a unique supernatural experience which proves magic is real (and therefore I’m the true heir to the throne of Melnibone/Atlantis/Gondor?) might outweigh the price tag of getting a new computer (and maybe a witch to cast a protective spell over it?). This is assuming of course that I can handily defeat an animated computer and get magical healing to make any injuries I suffered in the fight disappear.

If I were at a hunting lodge with a bunch of hunting trophies in it and those came to life and haunted me while I’m weathering a blizzard there I think that would be pretty cool though - at least if I were capable of dealing with such supernatural disturbances effectively. I remember an old adventure like that in Dungeon magazine. In that case the trophies weren’t taken by the PCs but by hunters of the past, but I could imagine a DM changing that part of the story. It also makes me think of Bjorn on Vikings hanging out in the hunting lodge all winter. I guess his DM sent a Berserker to attack him just because of his roleplaying choice to hook up with Torvi, but instead of complaining Bjorn killed the Berserker since he's an awesome Viking and therefore likes challenges (though a Vikings alignment thread might not be much prettier than a Game of Thrones alignment thread)

Anyhow, it isn’t like demon skulls are valuable magical treasure or equipment (like my +1 Cruel Furious Chromebook), so I think the whole comparison is a little off really. The demon statue which might potentially come to life also isn’t a monument built to represent one of the PCs, but honestly if some villain animated a statue of some hero and had it go on a rampage that might not be a completely unreasonable storyline. I wouldn’t expect that the animated object itself would be much of a challenge to PCs powerful enough to who have statues built in their honor, but tracking down the maniac who is using their images to kill people could be a decent adventure.

I'm not pitching a "The monsters raped and killed your mother and sister and now your half-fiend half-sisters are sneaking into camp to coup de grace you and your friends" story line here, maybe just some talking skulls which might or might not be aggressive or particularly dangerous. I'm also not saying that the DM "should" do something like that, just that I don't think it should be terrible and off limits.

Of course any action the DM might or might not take is a little different from the OP's original intent of changing the party's behavior from within. A lot of folks might feel that there's no need to change the behavior of keeping Evil skulls as trophies since they don't feel there's anything wrong or offensive about that. There's probably some other behavior like cannibalism, sexual abuse, racism, or fart jokes which more folks would agree is unacceptable if it makes some members of the group uncomfortable though. I guess the answer there is usually something like, "Tell your group you're sensitive and the way they're roleplaying makes you feel bad. They might tell you to grow up, apologize and behave the way you'd like, or perhaps laugh with glee and take the behavior to new heights."


22 FAQ requests isn't bad, but I'd like to see more. Come on, you FAQ'ers and click the FAQing button!


I guess the next question is if there's a way to punish the PCs for not decorating...

I'm not sure why having events unfold based on the roleplaying your PCs have done needs to be considered a punishment though. I mean, the game is made up largely of encounters. I'd think that having encounters which are themed around who your PCs are and what they've done or are doing could be a good experience. Maybe the skull encounter could be helpful and informative, lead to great treasures, serve as a prophecy (when the skulls float up, glow, and chant some curse, warning, cryptic message, etc), or just be a spooky but fun interlude or minor combat challenge.

Of course the DM could also choose to do nothing at all with the 13 skulls or demon statue. If nothing at all happens that's just fine, but I think it could be fun if something did happen too. I guess we're getting way off of the original topic of how to control the behavior of your fellow players though (and perhaps when that is or isn't a good goal - most people seem to agree it isn't for this situation)


Wow, BadBird, that's a good observation on the lack of prereqs for Monk bonus feats. Sohei is also great due to Devoted Guardian since never being surprised means never suffering two turns of enemy attacks before you can react.

Is the Scroll Scholar just to help boost the party's Knowledge checks to ID monsters? I guess that the Cloistered Cleric would be good at that though the cost in spell slots might be too high. On the other hand, when it is Kingmaker there's probably a lot of time for Craft Wand (maybe moving Power Attack to 3rd level and putting in Craft Wand at 7th). This could be especially helpful if the party's Magus takes the wand arcana.

I still suspect that the Evangelist might be a more efficient "team player".


It might merit mention that the Huntmaster Cavalier can get two animal companions instead of 1. You have to split levels between them, but with Boon Companion you can still keep them fully leveled early in your career and have a pretty viable lower level defensive/utility companion even into higher levels. I imagine that being a Bird who constantly flies in the space above you using the Bodyguard feat (aka "Birdyguard")


It looks like "holy hookers" might be more common than I would have thought. Maybe King Lubomyr (Paladin 4 / Bard 13) from our Kingmaker game had the right idea when he built a Brothel first in every city...um...Dance Hall that is!


I could see benefits to both the Wizard VMC and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for picking up the familiar. If you're going with Eldritch Heritage I suggested trying a Human with Focused Study, which makes your 1st level bonus feat Skill Focus but gives you additional bonus Skill Focus feat at 8th and 16th levels. Use the 1st level Skill Focus to qualify for Eldritch Heritage and it eases the pain of the prereq.
- I haven't used VMC on a PC yet, but VMC as a Diviner Wizard seems like if could be very good for somebody with pets due to Touch of Destiny. As you level it becomes a pretty big bonus which can be applied to most important d20 rolls.
- Sylvan Sorcerers can increase the level of their animal companion with a Robe of Arcane Heritage, potentially allowing a little more multiclassing.
- I think besides making your mount/companion Huge the Mammoth Rider PrC can also transform it into something a Cavalier wouldn't normally qualify for. For instance, at 11th level maybe your warhorse is replaced by an elephant sized pouncing death-cat.
- If you take Leadership on top of all this your DM will almost certainly kick you.


We had an Inquisitor in our Kingmaker game at higher levels, and he was very powerful. I think the Kingmaker Player's Guide points out that there's not much need for a "locks and traps guy" in the campaign though.

Our Sylvan Sorcerer had an elk/megaloceros which my Paladin/Bard rode around on. They're quite good at charging.


Maybe casting Animate Thread [Evil] could affect my alignment, but in case other people were looking for options in between the Large rowboat and the various Colossal ships like the Longship I'd like to point out that the updated stats for a Keelboat from the Skull & Shackles Player's Guide make it a Gargantuan vehicle.

That's just what I was looking for since I might want to use Animate Objects on ships but won't have the caster level 32 required for Colossal objects whereas CL16 for Gargantuan objects might happen eventually. It took me a long while to find this, so I figured I'd put something in here for any future Internet searches to find.

I might see if the DM would let me reflavor the Keelboat stats as a snekkja or even cut the ship down from 15'x50' to 10'x50, reduce the cargo but make it a little faster, etc.


Cavalier 4 with Horse Master can create multiple combos due to the animals on the Mount list not matching those on some other animal companion lists (say the Falconer Ranger or maybe a Sylvan Sorcerer who selects Big Cat)

Bodyguard and Mounted Combat could be fun here, and the possibilities for Broken Wing Gambit + Paired Opportunists could be pretty good. Toss in a level of Mammoth Rider and one of your animals can be Huge.

Whether or not any of this is a good idea depends on the group of course. Usually one animal companion plus one familiar is already a fairly big "team" for one PC.


Without going deep into spoiler territory I’ll agree with Dave Justus that Erastil is actually very appropriate for the Kingmaker AP. Erastil also lets you take the Deadeye Bowman trait, which could be almost as good as free Precise Shot in a lot of cases. I’d also say that an animal companion is an even better choice than usual in Kingmaker.

I like the Evangelist due to Inspire Courage, which will help the Magus, your animal companion, and any monsters you might summon. This can help your party be very strong in melee though obviously you’d have fewer feats left over to become an expert archer.

Regardless of which archetype you use I’d suggest combining Summon Good Monster with Sacred Summons since that will let you bring in Archons as a standard action and add Legion and Shield Archons to your list in addition to Lantern and Hound Archons. These are all pretty serviceable summons, and Lantern Archons supported by a Bard or Bard-like character can be very effective offensively. Summoning as a standard action is a big deal since else your summons show up slowly and you’re likely to have your spell disrupted.

Evangelist (Ranged)
1st - Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
3rd - Sacred Summons
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Point Blank Shot
9th - Rapid Shot
11th - Discordant Voice (+1d6 sonic damage)
13th - Summon Good Monster (add Legion and Shield Archons to your list)

Herald Caller (Ranged)
1st - PBS, Precise Shot
3rd - Rapid Shot
4th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Augment Summoning
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Sacred Summons
8th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Superior Summoning
9th - Manyshot
11th - Summon Good Monster
13th - Deadly Aim

You could obviously change up the order you take feats in for the first build to be better at archery early and build up summoning later. Without Precise Shot you might need to pick your shots a little, but there’s often a monster which isn’t in melee, and eventually your Inspire Courage bonus should nearly cover the difference in attack bonus even when there isn’t.

While the second build looks really good at archery I suspect that a little analysis in a spreadsheet might show it doesn’t really do that much more damage than the first one since the Bard-like bonuses would even things out a lot for your PC’s damage output. Taking the summons and other PCs into consideration I’d guess the Evangelist would help the party generate more damage overall. I figure that letting Summon Good Monster go until 13th level shouldn’t be a big deal since you probably won’t want to spend many 6th level slots on summoning Legion Archons until you have a few more 6th level slots. I guess the ability to cast Summon Monster spontaneously is a nice aspect of the Herald Caller.

You could potentially skip Boon Companion if you want to use the Animal Companion solely as a mount/archery platform (perhaps a flying one at higher levels). I think the potential power of the animal in melee is tough to ignore though, especially for the Evangelist who gives it bonuses.

Atarlost wrote:
There are no Erastil keyed items that don't suck.

There’s at least one pretty decent Erastil themed item I can think of off the top of my head though it might be better for another class besides Cleric.


I’d think that a DM could probably do something with Haunts since they’re pretty flexible and at least IMO the sort of thing DMs are supposed to get creative with. Of course the DM could also make up an entirely new undead monster, perhaps one which “sometimes manifests when 13 demon skulls are brought together” (or just "from the physical remains of evil outsiders"). Making up new monsters isn’t against the rules, and in fact is even covered in the PRD.


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I guess if nothing else I guess the Paladin could help prepare the blood as a sacrifice for some mighty demon or devil which is the only one capable of saving the orphange/city/world/farm. The moral implications of this seem unclear to me. I mean, I guess a Paladin could also become sort of a holy prostitute who tries to placate Evil outsiders with sexual favors. At least he or she would be immune to disease ("All our companions are Paladins, so you know they're clean!")

What some groups find clever/amusing/fun others might find offensive/stupid/annoying - I think that's ultimately the case for a lot of this stuff, and if you try to force your opinion on a group of people who don't want it there's likely to be conflict regardless of how people on the boards interpret RAW.


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I'd agree that sneaking into the party's camp to rob them would get old really fast, but if a goblin grabs your bag full of treasure off the ground during combat and runs away that seems kind of hilarious to me. I guess maybe I'm a bad person/DM.


I think having super high HP and perhaps some DR is probably the best solution to staying alive against hit point damage since somebody will always find a way to bypass your AC or even touch AC. Trying to win initiative is also a huge deal since you're probably most likely to get taken out when you get attacked in a surprise round and then lose initiative too. Taking that many attacks from a monster when you don't have all your defenses engaged or any access to emergency healing can be really tough to survive. This is often an area I'm lax in, and I sometimes really pay for it.

That said, I tend to focus on AC with my martial PCs. At 5th level my current crop of PCs had AC ranging from 22 to 27 (usually 24 to 25 depending on whether Mutagen, rage, etc was in play). All of these characters were alleged to be "unhittable" to the point where it caused ridicule by the DMs and sometimes complaints from other players, so if somebody is looking at AC 28 as a floor rather than a ceiling for 5th level AC I think they're likely misguided.

I guess that AC might be a more reliable defense in PFS since there's no homebrew DM to start focusing on touch attacks, AoE, CMD, etc.


There's another thread on "Keeping Track of Minutia". Based on people's input there I'd guess that many groups don't even worry about the weight of the bag, much less how it is carried. I'd guess it would typically be put into a backpack not only because carrying it by hand could be tiring (which is more of a roleplaying concern) but because it would take up a hand you might want to use for something else. The point Gauss raises is a good one and similar to some ideas expressed in the other thread. A strong PC can carry a 100lb rowboat without becoming encumbered, but how it works and whether it causes any challenges seems to be left to the DM to decide.

@Peachbottom - Not wanting to drop a bag full of the party's treasure on the floor during combat is one reason I'd guess that most people who bother to wonder how the bag gets carried would put it into a backpack.


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I think that a Paladin who supports his followers on "My holy blood" would be a pretty weird character, but it made me wonder how much nutrition there is in blood anyhow. Assuming that human blood would be relatively close in nutritional value to lamb blood it looks like it is at least a great source of protein.

I'd kind of like to give my mythic Viking PC the ability to raise an animal companion so that he could have goats (or something) to kill and eat each night like Thor. Fighters don't get animal companions though, and it didn't seem worth the feats for the flavor (um - roleplaying flavor, not goat flavor - I can get that at the local Caribbean restaurant)


An hour per level would probably be enough to transport treasure out of a traditional dungeon. As I recall some of the fluff around Floating Disk was that Tenser didn't like to leave even a single copper piece of treasure behind in the dungeon.

I'd guess that WotC kept the spell in the game mostly because of its "classic" nature whereas Paizo might have kept it in mostly because it was already in there. In any event, it could potentially come in handy for various things besides hauling treasure, and I guess there could even be groups out there who track encumbrance more rigorously. If somebody wants the encumbrance rules or the Floating Disk they're there. If not then they're free to ignore them (though I wonder if that's the case in PFS)

The fact we've also got newer items like Muleback Cords implies to me that somebody in the player community still cares about encumbrance or at least somebody at Paizo thinks that somebody cares. My mythic Viking buys items like this simply so he can boast about how much he can carry, "I pick things up and put them down!"


@Lucy_Valentine - If you have your stuff in a sack that takes up a hand, and that might impact whether the PC can have items like a weapon, shield, wand, etc ready for combat. I agree that the rules don't do a great job of detailing "how" things are carried though. For instance, strong PCs might be able to carry 5 heavy shields or a rowboat as a light load, but how exactly would they carry them?

@Anguish - I think it can be safely assumed that stuff your PC eats or drinks basically becomes part of the PC and thereafter gets handled by natural processes. As for coins, I think their weight is why the Floating Disk spell was originally invented.


I guess some clever DM could construct a devilish trial where you are forced, perhaps even magically compelled, to choose "the lesser of two Evils" and either press a button to administer deadly Poison to a despicable Demon behind a Wall of Force or allow that Demon to eat some children. I suppose how harshly to judge the Paladin who presses the button ("At least I saved the children") or the one who refuses to press it ("At least those children might now become Archons who can take holy vengeance upon Demons.") is up to the DM, "the gods", maybe the Multiverse, and perhaps James Jacobs.

I hope that moral conundrums like that are pretty rare in actual play though. I'd guess that more often somebody who wants Paladins to be able to use Poison without falling either wants extra power or perhaps just to be oppositional or ironic like "My Paladin specializes in Poison. Isn't that unusual?" They could also just be some kind of message boards innovator trying to start a big thread on Paladins falling. I think I've seen something like that before...


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I like scantily clad women and think Seoni is pretty hot. I'd imagine that she kills monsters with Fireballs and stuff rather than her looks though.


It might be interesting if the DM decided that the group's grisly trophies of Evil beings are likely to form into some sort of haunting.


Poison is great for killing Fiendish Termites, just ask Sir Ortho! Unfortunately he fell since the Paladin's "Code of Conduct" specifically mentions not using poison. Now he's a twisted vestige of his former self, an Anti-Paladin who tracks down and murders intelligent arthropods wherever he finds them.


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Even a lot of regular people in the real world will become martyrs rather than betray their beliefs to gain mercy from somebody who has power over them. I'd think a Lawful Good outsider should probably be even more principled.

I guess each DM needs to reach his or her own decision on what's "unreasonable" in a particular game. If you've got a player who wants to turn Planar Binding into an installment of the "Saw" movies that could be interesting for some games and an off putting nuisance for others.


The outsiders I'm looking at are Medium, and a typical outsider doesn't have much else to carry anyhow. I guess that a handy haversack could be a nice gift too though (for some reason I'm envisioning it as a big purse which contains all sorts of stuff)


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Based on more recent comments it sounds like maybe the “torture” being referred to by the OP isn’t particularly violent or painful. Perhaps it is more like kidnapping somebody and then browbeating them into submission? Anyhow, as Ashiel alluded to, you can simply call the outsider, explain your offer, and let the outsider choose whether to accept, go back where it came from, or run around the local area doing whatever sort of stuff that kind of outsider might want to do.

If you call a Good outsider to perform a task aligned with its ethos maybe that's all which would be needed. If you're calling an Evil outsider you've already cast a spell which Good aligned deities might frown upon and brought a powerful Evil entity onto the Material Plane. The fact you're calling an Evil outsider instead of a Good one also might suggest that you're calling it for an Evil purpose since else it would be safer and easier to contract the services of a Good outsider. I'd think that all of this might raise a few divine eyebrows.

@Starbuck II - You’ve presented an interesting situation since if I say something bad about a small child that probably makes me a jerk. Since you brought it up I’ll guess that your niece is a wonderful and well adjusted child or adult now, but I don’t think the fact somebody is OK now means that everything he or she ever did must have been OK too.

We had a few kids in our neighborhood who sprayed some animals such as frogs with “gum cutter” (a product used to clean engines) and then set them on fire. Those kids were somebody’s nephews. Anyhow, I’m assuming that the caster of Planar Binding probably isn’t a little kid and therefore probably understands the implications of his or her actions.


I don’t use anything like Hero Lab of PC Gen (at least not yet), but tracking encumbrance in a spreadsheet is pretty simple. I do manual updates on my sheet and populate them back to the document between sessions though I could do it via phone during the sessions if I cared to. That said, the groups I play with don't generally seem to worry about potential encumbrance from carrying treasure. Once in awhile a DM will ask who is carrying certain stuff, but as often as not that’s because there’s a cursed item. The rest of the treasure seems to float around in some kind of fugue state for a few levels before going into handy haversacks and bags of holding which are rarely if ever audited.

Regarding hand use, I try to enforce those rules fairly strictly when I'm running and be conscientious of them as a player. I've seen other DMs let quite a few things slide though. In at least one game we seem to have a guy using a greatsword and shield. It is actually an animated shield, but I've never seen him use a Move action to animate it or say that it has dropped after 4 rounds. More frequently people pull out and fire a bow without dropping their melee weapon. There sometimes seems to be a fuzzy grey area around wands and potions too.

@Qaianna - Non-shuriken thrown weapons can generally be retrieved after the fight (if not during it), so I guess you'd only really need to make sure you have as many as you'd want to throw during a combat. If somebody carries 2 javelins and throws a javelin every round for 12 rounds I'd consider that at least a minor problem.


I wonder what level of difficulty is required for different people to cross that "you could die any instant" threshold.


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If you swat a fly I don't think most folks won't think you're a bad person. If you catch the fly, pull off its wings, and maybe stab it to death with a pin or cut it into pieces I think most folks would think that's kind of twisted and you "might have some problems".

I hope that "torture == bad" seems like something most folks should be able to agree on. I guess that the ambiguity comes in when doing something bad would help you prevent something even worse from happening. When is it "worth it" to do something bad?

If there were a credible terrorist threat to blow up NYC but the terrorists said they'd back off if members of Congress raped 1,000 virgins on the White House lawn and then burned them all alive for the glory of Satan should we do it or just let NYC get blown up? In the real world that might be a complex and painful question. In the fantasy world I think the answer should be, "We send a big fricking hero to save the day!" (or perhaps "kill those bastards and save the day!" depending on your exact genre)


When people say that they don't track encumbrance but nobody has abused it I wonder how they know and what they'd consider abuse. If the DM assumes that every PC can carry as much equipment as he or she needs to function optimally that seems like it should cover everything except maybe hauling home really big treasures or just "being silly".

Anyhow, if people are lax on encumbrance it makes me wonder what else they might be lax on. The first thing which comes to mind is hand availability and what items are in a PC's hands. In general the groups I play with at least try to track this, but I've noticed plenty of times when DMs have let players switch between shooting bows and using melee weapons without really asking how the switch was accomplished. Folks also often seem to forget about drawing potions or sometimes even wands. Where wands and ranged weapons go after they've been used is also not always a popular subject. Sometimes I'll point such stuff out if the players and DM in question wouldn't be too offended or I just feel like making trouble. I wonder if other groups enforce hand use rules more or less than ours though.

@Apupunchau - If you have serious concerns about whether you can carry a 5lb haversack you’re probably the sort of PC who DMs interested in encumbrance might want to audit.

@Derklord - We actually had a discussion lately about whether one 1st level PC is "naked under his armor" since he was teetering on the edge of encumbered.


If the Globe of Invulnerability only worked against spells from Evil sources that might be an interesting and powerful option. That said, I suspect that Paizo might not answer a corner case like this and the rest of the player community might say, "Quit your whining and just deactivate the Aura when you want to use lower level SLAs!"

Nevertheless, I have clicked FAQ. Even getting a firm answer that some of the outsider's SLAs won't work due to her aura would be an improvement over uncertainty, especially if it comes with some information on how the aura can be lowered and restored (presumably the same as in 3.5 though it would be nice to see something in the actual FAQ rather than just an old WotC customer service email)


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One of the things the OP asked about was, "if a good aligned wizard can do this without getting into trouble with his god". I'd guess the implication is that the god in question is Good aligned. I suppose a Wizard doesn't really need to care if "his" god approves of his actions. I mean, if a Wizard worships Sarenrae but makes deals with Shadow Demons by sacrificing virgins to them it won't affect his powers, but I'd guess it might affect his standing in the church of Sarenrae and where his soul goes for its eternal reward.

If he just uses Evil tagged spells to call a succubus "mostly for conversation", to help entertain the troops in a holy war (like an Abyssal USO), or to help save the orphanage that might have less impact, but should him casting Evil tagged spells affect Sarenrae's opinion of him? I think the answer should be "yes". After all, Sarenrae grants divine spells, but she doesn't grant the ones with Evil tags, implying to me that maybe she disapproves of such spells. I guess you could posit that she doesn't mind them or even really digs them but simply lacks the power to grant them since they're outside her Goodly area of power and authority. I could see a PC using that as a rationalization of sorts, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be Paizo's official explanation for why Clerics can't spells from opposed alignments (though I've been surprised before)


Our groups usually invest in extra-dimensional containers, so I suspect that encumbrance wouldn't be a big deal at higher levels.

I feel a renewed urge to get people carefully tracking encumbrance and ammo though. I was reading another thread about a long adventure in the wilderness, and the idea of archers running out of arrows on a long journey strikes me as the sort of "fun" DMs like players to have at low levels. Ah, the joys of ability damage!


I was wondering about similar questions related to the Cetaceal Agathion. It seems like bringing her along as an ally could be kind of disruptive since it would stop the party from using low level spells when she's nearby. It would be nice if she could suppress just the Globe of Invulnerability part since the rest seems rather nice.


It recently struck me that when using True Name it might make sense for some of the gifts given to the called outsider to be better equipment. A mithral chain shirt +2 and a mithral light shield +2 wouldn't have any ACP but could increase a creature's AC by +9.


Our DM for Kingmaker clearly didn't want us having animated objects and golems take part in the adventure segments, but my girlfriend's PC made a lot of them for use as roleplaying props and in the military segments. Even a single golem of the right sort can make a pretty formidable military unit. Having a self-propelled animated vardo was cool too. It was mostly just a roleplaying prop, but it also helped answer the question of "How do you carry all that treasure?"


One thing which strikes me as odd from time to time is the question of where PCs store their reach weapons while they're not wielded, especially when we're in tighter spaces like dungeons. Once in a while I've seen a DM or two challenge this, but they generally back off. On the other hand, DMs frequently insist that mounts won't fit into dungeons which have ceilings high enough to accommodate them.

@GM 1990 - If you want to carry heavy stuff around but then drop it when your first turn comes up in combat that's something you could probably also do within the rules rather than by hand waving them. The difference could be significant when traveling with a heavy load, when you run across traps, or when you're surprised. I also think that enforcing encumbrance rules can enhance the value of mounts, pack animals, and vehicles (maybe like the Mech you mentioned). I happen to think that's fun, but I'd guess I'm in the minority on that.

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