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This thread gives me the impression that a lot of people consider lying to be an indispensable part of life. The idea that you'd have a tough time getting by without lying or at least being disingenuous disappoints me a little, but hopefully it is more true in game terms than in day to day life.
Anyhow, I don't see why a character who doesn't lie couldn't use the intimidate skill. Heck, if you had a reputation for not lying I'd think that would make your threats more believable. Blackmail seems similar...
PC: "If you don't pay me I'll put this story in the newspaper. You know I don't lie, so you know I'll do it."
If you use the search function on d20pfsrd you can look for keywords related to bonuses or effects you'd like to get. You can also filter the results for categories like "Magic Items" and "Spells".
It can be tough to know what to expect in terms of magic item availability though. A few DMs let players buy whatever they can afford. Others limit what can be purchased or even increase the price for certain items. In one game I recently paid 15,000gp for a 14,000gp item and 14,000gp for a 10,000gp item, and the party's Bard had to make a Diplomacy check just so I could get it at all.
If you're not sure what you'll be allowed to have it can make it tough to plan. If you focus on "basic" items and don't pin your hopes on being able to get specific equipment you might have better luck in a lot of games.
If Paizo asks, "Do you think we should nerf the super item your super build relies on?" I'd imagine that they might get a lot of negative responses. There's practically nothing in the game which "everybody" agrees is overpowered.
I did see a few items get buffed too like the belt which used to call Unseen Servant but now calls Spiritual Ally (though I suppose somebody who really liked the Unseen Servant ability for some reason might wish that they had just added Spiritual Ally rather than taking Unseen Servant away)
@Riuken - I too have sometimes considered whether shields should add to touch AC. The primary driver for me is that I just don't like the idea that somebody touching your shield (or other weapon) is the same as them touching you, but I agree that having more options to increase touch AC and more benefits for using a shield would both be good things.
I guess that somebody might point out that the use of shields decreased rather than increased after the advent of firearms, but there are a lot of factors which go into stuff like that, and the game probably isn't intended as a historical simulation anyhow. Regarding the depiction of early firearms in the game, I would have preferred a slow rate of fire with very high damage. I feel like that captures the "spirit" of how early firearms are depicted in fiction better than a Gunslinger reloading and firing a muzzle loading gun once a second.
If a musket did 4d6 base damage (for instance - not a carefully considered suggestion) it also might become a weapon which works pretty well with Vital Strike.
I agree with Malwing that touch AC is a problematic system in some ways. In the past I've thought of limiting the amount of armor or natural armor a touch attack (or firearm, which is slightly different) can bypass, possibly to a flat number or possibly based on the size of the damage die (d8 bypasses 8, d10 bypasses 10, etc so that elephant guns blow right through a big monster's hide but derringers might bounce off)
I think people would say that's too complex and maybe prefer something like just setting the limit at 10. I think other people would say that's too complex too, and that makes me think about how "what's your touch AC?" and "what's your flat-footed touch AC?" still seem like tough questions for many people I play with after all these years. Touch AC being different than regular AC and also different from CMD is kind of a nuisance in and of itself. I wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be better if more spell attacks weren't against touch AC but let you use caster level in place of BAB so that even Wizards not particularly optimized for attack rolls should have a decent chance of hitting with Scorching Ray, Shocking Grasp, etc. I guess it wouldn't help much at low levels, but that's when AC and touch AC are usually closest together anyhow. I can see how folks might object that armor shouldn't protect you against Enervation, but I can also see how folks might feel it should protect you against Acid Arrow (maybe it would seem like the acid should damage your armor, but we don't track the damage armor and shields take from near hits with melee weapons)
I don't really expect Paizo to change touch attacks after all these years, and honestly I'm not sure if I'll ever try changing them with house rules since there would always be at least one player who would get upset that attack spells might miss or encounter "double jeopardy" against some monsters with an attack roll and SR. Of course regular attacks often have kind of a "double jeopardy" with AC and DR, but...oh well...ranting and raving here won't change anything...
We house ruled away the Fort save vs death on Coup de Grace. It makes it a little less taboo, and it still hurts plenty, especially at lower levels or coming from strong opponents. If you're particularly bloodthirsty or think CdG should be a little more "special" I guess you could increase the crit mod by x1.
Players rarely like the idea of house ruling their pet combo (Frigid Touch + Gentle Rest for instance or Slumber hex + scythe perhaps), but house ruling CdG might seem like a little more of a two way street, especially if the DM is known to use ghouls, mummies, etc.
If you're trying to fit the most threat you "legally" can into a given CR that might not be a great idea. I was thinking just the other day how many mid to high level PCs could probably be assassinated by lower level mages focused on the seemingly humble Magic Missile spell.
I guess I don't have much right to criticize though since I recently almost caused a TPK by adding Unchained Rogue levels to a ghast until CR = APL. I got too excited about the cool abilities such a monster could have and not worried enough about how easy it would be for PCs to fail some saving throws and end up dead. In my defense we do play with a house rule that coup de grace just counts as a regular critical hit without and Fort save vs death. It is still pretty brutal though, especially if you add in sneak attack - ouch...
I agree that Leadership isn't very relevant here unless you wanted to get a teammate of some sort for your eidolon. It would probably be more streamlined to make your PC into that teammate though and let the eidolon be more like your "little buddy". An ability to share teamwork feats or perhaps some mounted combat capability might work out well.
A bunch of Bards who form a band might be amusing. A standard Bard and a Court Bard could probably make a big buff+debuff impact together, and there are a few other archetypes like Archivist who can offer more stacking bonuses (plus maybe a Sound Striker vocalist to blow stuff up)
A team of Rogues seems pretty iconic to me whether as members of a thieves guild/mafia/etc or maybe spies. Ideally each PC would have at least one area he or she specializes in.
A party of Fighters or Monks could all have different fighting styles. I guess they'd probably need at least one member with Use Magic Device for wands if they didn't want to spend a fortune on potions though.
I don't think that the Call Truce feat does anything to prevent characters without it from roleplaying attempts to parley with enemies. On the other hand, I could imagine some players getting pretty upset if the DM had an NPC use Call Truce to stop a fight before the PCs can win, especially if the NPC and or other enemies made the Bluff check to gain a combat advantage without the PCs getting a hunch.
I wonder how long it would take for some players to declare that their PCs are fanatics...
When I encounter this sort of thing it is generally with a DM who decides that the PCs start off without any adventuring equipment. Sometimes that can be a fun situation like, "You've been shipwrecked! Learn to survive on a mysterious island and eventually make your way back to civilization." or a not so fun situation like, "You wake up to the light of a comet and the sound of people screaming. You're in your pajamas, and the zombie apocalypse has begun!" (I guess what's "fun" here is a matter of taste)
Improvising equipment and solutions can be interesting though I'd like to try a game where the PCs have limited equipment and need to make the most of it rather than basically just the clothes on their backs. Maybe one PC would be a woodsman who has an axe and another could have a rope, etc
Hide in Plain Sight is pretty cool. You just need to be within 10 feet of an area of dim light, not actually in an area of dim light, so you could basically stand under a spotlight in a dark room and folks still won't know where you are.
Using something like Spring Attack or Wand Dancer you could potentially dance out of the shadows, cause some havoc, and then disappear again. The shadow companion can also work well with a build focused on debuffs.
At higher levels something like a shadow celestial dire tiger could be a pretty cool flanking buddy. At lower levels I guess you could probably get airborne on a shadow dire bat (perhaps you'd have to sing, "I believe I can fly"?) or summon some shadow dretches to release "shadow gas".
Sure, I guess that taking Flagbearer early is nice since it helps the Magus and Skald as well as you and your summons. I'd still aim for Augment Summoning longer term though. Maybe you could think about something like this?
Another option due to the amount of downtime available in Kingmaker could be to take Craft Wondrous Items instead of Combat Reflexes (shuffling other feats around a bit). That could potentially cut the rather high cost of Banner of the Ancient Kings in half.
Are you guys saying that the armor spikes would do additional damage on top of whatever you deal with your unarmed strike, Bite, etc while grappling? If so I never noticed that and wonder exactly what damage you'd deal. I mean, armor spikes do 1d6 damage, but would you add your Str mod? Half your Str mod? No Str mod?
I think it would be even worse to destroy an altar.
However, Monks usually have a high Wisdom, so I'd think that they should be able to see past this sort of stuff and understand the ways of the world. That would give me the impression that the PC probably "knows better" but persists in being a jerk just to satisfy his angst and self pity.
If the PC also can't talk and just walks around being silently antagonistic about religious matters that might aggravate rather than relieve the irritation this stuff could cause. Then again, maybe you're such a great roleplayer that instead of thinking, "Man, I wish this jerk would cut it out" people will think, "Wow, that's such a unique portrayal of the anguish caused by the Evil policies of Nidal. It inspires me to explore the darker side of imagination and embrace the concept of the anti-hero."
If the idea is just, "This might aggravate you, but it isn't Evil, so you can't tell me to stop!" I'm not sure that will go over as well though.
Scientific Answer: This probably isn't really happening, but if you come to suspect that the player might be rolling the dice in some special way so as to influence the outcome I guess you could try a dice rolling tower.
Superstitious Answer: Have people touch the lucky player's dice and then call out low numbers as he rolls.
Spiteful Answer: Have all the monsters focus on killing the amazing PC who never misses before he can attack them.
I too will chime in to recommend the Mythic Agile template which gives the monster two turns at separate points in initiative. Having the monster take two turns in a row (or maybe even 3-4 with surprise?) and kill a PC before the PC even gets to act seems less fun to me.
I'm not sure if there's any Mythic ability which gives a monster two pools of hit points, but you might want to consider that too since PCs are often optimized for causing lots of damage quickly. I guess you could even do something weird like have the monster automatically rise as an undead version of itself right after it is killed (basically two monsters in the place of one)
Other similar ideas could include a monstrous "brain" or slug-like gut parasite which emerges from a slain monster and starts flying/crawling/swimming around blasting the party with magic or psionic powers or maybe trying to infect them and make them the next BBEG.
Unless the goblins have Plane Shift I'd assume that the party could probably get the bag back though it might require some work or perhaps some concessions - "Roofus hide bag and not give it back unless you bring him cake! Magic cake with explosive candles! You also call him King Roofus now!"
I guess Locate Object might be useful in those situations. It was one of the first 2nd level spells I took with my first 3e PC - "Kazaan Dhal never loses his keys!"
Getting better at melee can be easier than getting better at ranged when you're constrained on feats. However, you should probably know whether your DM will be enforcing the soft cover rules against reach weapons. If so that doesn't make them bad, but it would make them less than ideal for attacking from behind summoned monsters. Taking a -4 on attacks could be particularly troublesome when you're trying to use Power Attack.
I still don't see the appeal of Herald Caller over Evangelist unless you just want to be more flexible with your spell selection, but if the idea of calling heralds appeals to you more than that of preaching Erastil's virtues you should still do fine. Maybe it is just tough to trust that the summoned monsters can get things done for you, but Kingmaker is actually very well suited to a summoning focused caster, and a +3 bonus to hit and damage (or maybe more with BadBird's build) would be a big benefit for summoned monsters, the Magus, and the Skald. The usefulness of Inspire Courage is proportional to the number of attacks the party generates, and a party with summoned monsters can generate a lot.
I'm glad you liked the builds. Evangelist would actually stack OK with Skald since the bonuses you'd grant would be different. Inspire Courage grants a competence bonus to attacks and damage whereas Weapon Song adds enhancement bonuses or other enchantments to weapons.
You could be effective with various different builds and archetypes. It is mostly just a matter of deciding what appeals to you.
@Dave Justus - I'd agree that Inspire Courage is probably more generally useful than Weapon Song. It is the Cleric who would potentially have Inspire Courage though, not the Skald. Of course the Skald could change to a Bard, but I think the Skald's Rage Powers have some really interesting possibilities (beat DR/good, improve AC, pounce, etc)
Yeah, one of my PCs might get the ability to Animate Objects from taking Divine Source (mythic ability). He's Chaotic, so he'd have to take the Chaos domain, and that automatically gives you Animate Objects if you reach 6th tier.
The PC is a Viking, and I couldn't think of anything he'd probably want to animate besides a ship. Since this particular ship would need to carry a woolly mammoth it might as well be as large as possible. At least the mammoth in question has Narrow Frame though.
The Bird and Dog gained by the Huntmaster don't seem bad to me, especially since they gain some bonus abilities like being able to make Dirty Trick or Trip attempts after a successful hit. The fact that your companions get to share your Challenges could also be helpful. The auto-flanking at 11th level also comes online a little late but could be cool once it is in play.
I'd think Boon Companion should work OK since it says: "Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar."
If my computer came to life that would be kind of weird, but since it is a sub $200 Chromebook I guess that the value of having a unique supernatural experience which proves magic is real (and therefore I’m the true heir to the throne of Melnibone/Atlantis/Gondor?) might outweigh the price tag of getting a new computer (and maybe a witch to cast a protective spell over it?). This is assuming of course that I can handily defeat an animated computer and get magical healing to make any injuries I suffered in the fight disappear.
If I were at a hunting lodge with a bunch of hunting trophies in it and those came to life and haunted me while I’m weathering a blizzard there I think that would be pretty cool though - at least if I were capable of dealing with such supernatural disturbances effectively. I remember an old adventure like that in Dungeon magazine. In that case the trophies weren’t taken by the PCs but by hunters of the past, but I could imagine a DM changing that part of the story. It also makes me think of Bjorn on Vikings hanging out in the hunting lodge all winter. I guess his DM sent a Berserker to attack him just because of his roleplaying choice to hook up with Torvi, but instead of complaining Bjorn killed the Berserker since he's an awesome Viking and therefore likes challenges (though a Vikings alignment thread might not be much prettier than a Game of Thrones alignment thread)
Anyhow, it isn’t like demon skulls are valuable magical treasure or equipment (like my +1 Cruel Furious Chromebook), so I think the whole comparison is a little off really. The demon statue which might potentially come to life also isn’t a monument built to represent one of the PCs, but honestly if some villain animated a statue of some hero and had it go on a rampage that might not be a completely unreasonable storyline. I wouldn’t expect that the animated object itself would be much of a challenge to PCs powerful enough to who have statues built in their honor, but tracking down the maniac who is using their images to kill people could be a decent adventure.
I'm not pitching a "The monsters raped and killed your mother and sister and now your half-fiend half-sisters are sneaking into camp to coup de grace you and your friends" story line here, maybe just some talking skulls which might or might not be aggressive or particularly dangerous. I'm also not saying that the DM "should" do something like that, just that I don't think it should be terrible and off limits.
Of course any action the DM might or might not take is a little different from the OP's original intent of changing the party's behavior from within. A lot of folks might feel that there's no need to change the behavior of keeping Evil skulls as trophies since they don't feel there's anything wrong or offensive about that. There's probably some other behavior like cannibalism, sexual abuse, racism, or fart jokes which more folks would agree is unacceptable if it makes some members of the group uncomfortable though. I guess the answer there is usually something like, "Tell your group you're sensitive and the way they're roleplaying makes you feel bad. They might tell you to grow up, apologize and behave the way you'd like, or perhaps laugh with glee and take the behavior to new heights."
I guess the next question is if there's a way to punish the PCs for not decorating...
I'm not sure why having events unfold based on the roleplaying your PCs have done needs to be considered a punishment though. I mean, the game is made up largely of encounters. I'd think that having encounters which are themed around who your PCs are and what they've done or are doing could be a good experience. Maybe the skull encounter could be helpful and informative, lead to great treasures, serve as a prophecy (when the skulls float up, glow, and chant some curse, warning, cryptic message, etc), or just be a spooky but fun interlude or minor combat challenge.
Of course the DM could also choose to do nothing at all with the 13 skulls or demon statue. If nothing at all happens that's just fine, but I think it could be fun if something did happen too. I guess we're getting way off of the original topic of how to control the behavior of your fellow players though (and perhaps when that is or isn't a good goal - most people seem to agree it isn't for this situation)
Wow, BadBird, that's a good observation on the lack of prereqs for Monk bonus feats. Sohei is also great due to Devoted Guardian since never being surprised means never suffering two turns of enemy attacks before you can react.
Is the Scroll Scholar just to help boost the party's Knowledge checks to ID monsters? I guess that the Cloistered Cleric would be good at that though the cost in spell slots might be too high. On the other hand, when it is Kingmaker there's probably a lot of time for Craft Wand (maybe moving Power Attack to 3rd level and putting in Craft Wand at 7th). This could be especially helpful if the party's Magus takes the wand arcana.
I still suspect that the Evangelist might be a more efficient "team player".
It might merit mention that the Huntmaster Cavalier can get two animal companions instead of 1. You have to split levels between them, but with Boon Companion you can still keep them fully leveled early in your career and have a pretty viable lower level defensive/utility companion even into higher levels. I imagine that being a Bird who constantly flies in the space above you using the Bodyguard feat (aka "Birdyguard")
I could see benefits to both the Wizard VMC and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for picking up the familiar. If you're going with Eldritch Heritage I suggested trying a Human with Focused Study, which makes your 1st level bonus feat Skill Focus but gives you additional bonus Skill Focus feat at 8th and 16th levels. Use the 1st level Skill Focus to qualify for Eldritch Heritage and it eases the pain of the prereq.
We had an Inquisitor in our Kingmaker game at higher levels, and he was very powerful. I think the Kingmaker Player's Guide points out that there's not much need for a "locks and traps guy" in the campaign though.
Our Sylvan Sorcerer had an elk/megaloceros which my Paladin/Bard rode around on. They're quite good at charging.
Maybe casting Animate Thread [Evil] could affect my alignment, but in case other people were looking for options in between the Large rowboat and the various Colossal ships like the Longship I'd like to point out that the updated stats for a Keelboat from the Skull & Shackles Player's Guide make it a Gargantuan vehicle.
That's just what I was looking for since I might want to use Animate Objects on ships but won't have the caster level 32 required for Colossal objects whereas CL16 for Gargantuan objects might happen eventually. It took me a long while to find this, so I figured I'd put something in here for any future Internet searches to find.
I might see if the DM would let me reflavor the Keelboat stats as a snekkja or even cut the ship down from 15'x50' to 10'x50, reduce the cargo but make it a little faster, etc.
Cavalier 4 with Horse Master can create multiple combos due to the animals on the Mount list not matching those on some other animal companion lists (say the Falconer Ranger or maybe a Sylvan Sorcerer who selects Big Cat)
Bodyguard and Mounted Combat could be fun here, and the possibilities for Broken Wing Gambit + Paired Opportunists could be pretty good. Toss in a level of Mammoth Rider and one of your animals can be Huge.
Whether or not any of this is a good idea depends on the group of course. Usually one animal companion plus one familiar is already a fairly big "team" for one PC.
Without going deep into spoiler territory I’ll agree with Dave Justus that Erastil is actually very appropriate for the Kingmaker AP. Erastil also lets you take the Deadeye Bowman trait, which could be almost as good as free Precise Shot in a lot of cases. I’d also say that an animal companion is an even better choice than usual in Kingmaker.
I like the Evangelist due to Inspire Courage, which will help the Magus, your animal companion, and any monsters you might summon. This can help your party be very strong in melee though obviously you’d have fewer feats left over to become an expert archer.
Regardless of which archetype you use I’d suggest combining Summon Good Monster with Sacred Summons since that will let you bring in Archons as a standard action and add Legion and Shield Archons to your list in addition to Lantern and Hound Archons. These are all pretty serviceable summons, and Lantern Archons supported by a Bard or Bard-like character can be very effective offensively. Summoning as a standard action is a big deal since else your summons show up slowly and you’re likely to have your spell disrupted.
Herald Caller (Ranged)
You could obviously change up the order you take feats in for the first build to be better at archery early and build up summoning later. Without Precise Shot you might need to pick your shots a little, but there’s often a monster which isn’t in melee, and eventually your Inspire Courage bonus should nearly cover the difference in attack bonus even when there isn’t.
While the second build looks really good at archery I suspect that a little analysis in a spreadsheet might show it doesn’t really do that much more damage than the first one since the Bard-like bonuses would even things out a lot for your PC’s damage output. Taking the summons and other PCs into consideration I’d guess the Evangelist would help the party generate more damage overall. I figure that letting Summon Good Monster go until 13th level shouldn’t be a big deal since you probably won’t want to spend many 6th level slots on summoning Legion Archons until you have a few more 6th level slots. I guess the ability to cast Summon Monster spontaneously is a nice aspect of the Herald Caller.
You could potentially skip Boon Companion if you want to use the Animal Companion solely as a mount/archery platform (perhaps a flying one at higher levels). I think the potential power of the animal in melee is tough to ignore though, especially for the Evangelist who gives it bonuses.
There are no Erastil keyed items that don't suck.
There’s at least one pretty decent Erastil themed item I can think of off the top of my head though it might be better for another class besides Cleric.
I’d think that a DM could probably do something with Haunts since they’re pretty flexible and at least IMO the sort of thing DMs are supposed to get creative with. Of course the DM could also make up an entirely new undead monster, perhaps one which “sometimes manifests when 13 demon skulls are brought together” (or just "from the physical remains of evil outsiders"). Making up new monsters isn’t against the rules, and in fact is even covered in the PRD.
I guess if nothing else I guess the Paladin could help prepare the blood as a sacrifice for some mighty demon or devil which is the only one capable of saving the orphange/city/world/farm. The moral implications of this seem unclear to me. I mean, I guess a Paladin could also become sort of a holy prostitute who tries to placate Evil outsiders with sexual favors. At least he or she would be immune to disease ("All our companions are Paladins, so you know they're clean!")
What some groups find clever/amusing/fun others might find offensive/stupid/annoying - I think that's ultimately the case for a lot of this stuff, and if you try to force your opinion on a group of people who don't want it there's likely to be conflict regardless of how people on the boards interpret RAW.
I think having super high HP and perhaps some DR is probably the best solution to staying alive against hit point damage since somebody will always find a way to bypass your AC or even touch AC. Trying to win initiative is also a huge deal since you're probably most likely to get taken out when you get attacked in a surprise round and then lose initiative too. Taking that many attacks from a monster when you don't have all your defenses engaged or any access to emergency healing can be really tough to survive. This is often an area I'm lax in, and I sometimes really pay for it.
That said, I tend to focus on AC with my martial PCs. At 5th level my current crop of PCs had AC ranging from 22 to 27 (usually 24 to 25 depending on whether Mutagen, rage, etc was in play). All of these characters were alleged to be "unhittable" to the point where it caused ridicule by the DMs and sometimes complaints from other players, so if somebody is looking at AC 28 as a floor rather than a ceiling for 5th level AC I think they're likely misguided.
I guess that AC might be a more reliable defense in PFS since there's no homebrew DM to start focusing on touch attacks, AoE, CMD, etc.
There's another thread on "Keeping Track of Minutia". Based on people's input there I'd guess that many groups don't even worry about the weight of the bag, much less how it is carried. I'd guess it would typically be put into a backpack not only because carrying it by hand could be tiring (which is more of a roleplaying concern) but because it would take up a hand you might want to use for something else. The point Gauss raises is a good one and similar to some ideas expressed in the other thread. A strong PC can carry a 100lb rowboat without becoming encumbered, but how it works and whether it causes any challenges seems to be left to the DM to decide.
@Peachbottom - Not wanting to drop a bag full of the party's treasure on the floor during combat is one reason I'd guess that most people who bother to wonder how the bag gets carried would put it into a backpack.
I think that a Paladin who supports his followers on "My holy blood" would be a pretty weird character, but it made me wonder how much nutrition there is in blood anyhow. Assuming that human blood would be relatively close in nutritional value to lamb blood it looks like it is at least a great source of protein.
I'd kind of like to give my mythic Viking PC the ability to raise an animal companion so that he could have goats (or something) to kill and eat each night like Thor. Fighters don't get animal companions though, and it didn't seem worth the feats for the flavor (um - roleplaying flavor, not goat flavor - I can get that at the local Caribbean restaurant)