Devil of Roses's page

In the Pathfinder RPG Desna is listed as having the Kukri be her weapon of choice. I kind of liked the star knife and was wondering if this was nixed for some reason, a typo, or just something for the Pathfinder RPG and not necessarily for the world of Golarion.

You know, I'd ditch the "+2 to two related skills" feats entirely and replace them all with a single feat that just gives you a +2 to two skills of your choice. There is a feat like this in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, and it works just fine. That leaves it up to the player to decide on their skill combinations. It can lead to odd combinations, but these can be used as story hooks (maybe the character's mentor was an incredible cook and taught him how to rustle up a mean curry in between lessons on Varisian history...)

Ooooh, I hadn't thought ot that, sounds great. Bridges the gap of having to dig up that obscure feat that gives you a bonus of +2 to two skills of your choice. Then the GM can determine how much RP is requried for that. i.e. 'Must be two similar skills such as swim and climb' or 'must have a good background purpose such as ones survivalist teacher could make a gourmet feast out of a coney and a few easily found herbs'.

*Raises hand and jumps up and down pointing at the above.* Oh mr. designer person! Look here, over here! :-D

I don't like these proposed changes on races:

+2 to WIS for half-orcs? WTF? Is that the orc blood in them that makes them thusly wise? This makes no sense and screams META to me (i.e. trying to get clerics and paladins to be half-orcs).

No more -2 CHA for half-orcs? "PLEASE BECOME CLERICS" (or paladins). Cut it out, please.

Why not leave the -2 INT and -2 CHA and give the half-orc +2 CON? Makes more sense to me anyway.

Honestly I never thought they should have a negative in two mental stats. Thoulh I agree, if anything they should have a -2 to CHA rather than INT, just makes more sense to me.

+2 to WIS for dwarves? Where does that come from? Since when have the dwarves come through as wise race? Together: META!

Um... actually this makes perfect sense. Dwarves are often considered to be wise due to their longer lives and simple common sense. At least in the fantasy literature I've read they've been touted for their wisdom, I think it is quite possibly the best mental score to give them a boost to. Nothing META about it.

I'd probably create "human" racial feats based around the human cultures presented in the Pathfinder Adventure paths. (Chelaxian, Shoanti, Varisian) This way you can create more class centered feats.

I love this idea! I'm raising my hand, putting in my vote, whatever for this one. I think it adds flavor to a campaign when a culture is taken into account sort of like the D20 Wheel of Time RPG.

Also half-elves and half-orcs would probably be able to take either elven/orcish racial feats or human racial feats.

Huzzah, on the human weapon prof. :)

I must disagree with this. With the improvements upon the Half Elf the human has become sub-par. There's talk of a free 'weapon group' feat but that strikes me as still not worth it when compaired to the fact that the 1/2 elves get 2 of the 3 nifty abilities humans have and a whole lot more. If half-elves were allowed to be even more flexible like a human I think they'd be stepping on even more toes, let the flexibility they have at present be enough.

On another note, though this might be considered needlessly complex, I had a house ruled version of the half elf where they got different benefits depending on which heritage they chose to emphasize. If they were more like their human side they had a human ability, whereas if they were more like their elven parentage they had an elven ability. One or the other with a small spattering of the standard 1/2 elf abilities. I doubt this would be taken into practice but it's an option.

Just my two cents worth. Though an alternative to that free weapon feat for humans might be (should they go with the culture idea) a free culture feat of their choice. Provided the feat wasn't something useless (Toughness anyone?) I think it would make humans a little more worthwhile. Maybe combined with a +1 bonus to some stat based on their culture though I can take that or leave it.

Now for the Half-Orc...gaining a +2 to Wisdom?? I just don't see this, Orc's are not inherently wise by nature, nor are humans (hence humans get the bonus to place where ever), Since the general description of the Half-Orc hasn't really changed I would suggest moving this adjustment to Con. Why? The reasoning I see behind it is the Orc is a warrior race, a violent race, they are used to living on the wilds and/or traversing difficult terrain?

I kind of agree, however if I haven't missed my guess it seems the races get a bonus stat for a physical stat and a bonus for a mental stat. I can see the +2 Wis bonus a little. More than I could see a +2 Int bonus or a +2 Cha bonus. Honestly I think their negative stat should be Charisma and not Int but that's just me. I believe their reasoning for the Wisdom wasn't so much as Orcs being wise (a'la Dalai Lama sp?) but intuitive and alert seeing as Wisdom is the prime stat for the Awareness skill which governs such things. If I were to choose a mental stat for them to get their second bonus in that is the one I'd choose. If I were to choose a second stat period I'd say let them have a bit of human adaptability and choose where that second one goes maybe even going so far as to allow it to cancel out their negative. These are things I'm pretty sure I'd house rule once the playtesting was complete. I won't at present as the entire point of playtesting is to see how well the existing rules do and don't work so until I do that there will be no alterations.

Alright... perhaps I'm being a touch wishy washy but I've finally had the chance to give the skill system a good once over and it doesn't seem as bad as I originally thought it to be. If I read it correctly every even level you get an additional skill, correct? These can be cross class skills or class skills effectively allowing you to be a little more flexible. It's pretty potent (again, if I read correctly) as a 20th's level human fighter with no intelligence bonus would now have 12 class and cross-class skills completely maxed out. Seems a bit extreme to me so I think I'm going to go over it again and make sure I got all of that. Regardless I'm going to rescind my negative vote. This has caught my interest and I believe it deserves real exploring, actually play testing, rather than just reading and judging without trying.

That being said I still think some of the skill combos are a bit odd. Athletic (a feat) just doesn't strike me as a '+2 bonus to Fly and Swim' perhaps make it optional to choose any two of a list of swim, climb, jump, fly to apply that bonus to. I guess that's a little off topic but that's the thing that's been getting me about skills now. I like the compiling of two similar skills into one skill but some of it seems like they're reaching, and if I'm correct about the bonus skill actually being added to ones list then having a couple extra wouldn't be too terrible. I don't know, I'll see how it all plays out first.

I personally like how Iron Heroes did their skill system. One thing I think should occur is make Jump/climb/swim athletics. Just makes more sense to me. I laughed when I saw the 'Athletics' feat, fly and swim?! I mean swim and climb I can understand but fly and swim seems.... a bit odd.

I just did a comparison. Humans definitely got the shaft. While I seriously believed half-elves needed some improvements (no one, and I mean no one in any groups I associated with ever played them) the improvements they have along with the other races make humans about as appealing of a choice as they were in 2nd edition (which for my group wasn't much). One feat, compared to the half-elves bonuses to skills usage, immunity to magical sleep effects, and low light vision (otherwise the 1/2 elves have two of the three main benefits humans have. The primary class benefit and the skill benefit. With the Alpha rules the extra feat just isn't worth it. Please give them a little something more.

I've looked over the races more than any other part of the book and I have to say I love some of the changes. Well, most, others I thinks would be fine if they were altered slightly.

For instance, I have been proven by my players, time and time again, that might doesn't make right. At least not as far as physical strength is concerned. In a group of people who blend powergaming with roleplaying to a frustrating level I never thought Str was worth 2 negative stats. Thank you Paizo for apparently agreeing. However whenever I modified the half-orc I always felt Charisma was a better negative stat. Don't get me wrong, I've been shown Charisma isn't a stat to laugh at either, but it seemed to me a Half Orc's appearance (compared to other core races) and heritage would make Charisma a more obvious choice. I was stumped on the Wisdom bonus until I noticed the pattern of the races getting a +2 in a physical stat and a +2 in a mental.

I also agree with many of the above posters, with the much needed improvements to the half elf going a touch overboard and the inclusion of far more feats I think the humans should get a little something extra beyond the +2 to any stat and the free feet and class skill. There was an idea mentioned where every 4th level when people normally got their +1 stat bonus the humans got an additional +1 but couldn't add it to the same stat as the first. Or perhaps the suggestion about the weapon group affinity or better (in my opinion) an additional 'feat' related to their class of choice.

Anyway, my two cents and all that.

My not so humble opinion:

I like skill points, I also am intrigued by the Saga-esque rules presented in the Alpha. However I believe both need some serious tweaking.

If I had to choose between the two I'd jump on skill points in a heartbeat. Honestly I think if there's a few adjustments it could be great. Consolidating certain skills (I.e. perception and stealth) is great provided it doesn't hurt a class two much (i.e. combining bluff and sense motive and then pulling it from the Paladin, for a pair of skills that are often in opposition I think that would be more detrimental rather than helpful). I also like the idea of boosting the minimum, I'm not sure about other campaigns but no one plays a fighter in my group, they take a couple levels and then level in something else so they can get abilities and skills. Now it seems you guys have tweaked with the abilities but their skills are seriously lacking. Assuming a fighter doesn't bother putting a high stat into intelligence they get two skills, only two, skills are neat and flesh out characters a bit better and honest I think that it wouldn't damage the game at all to boost the minimum to 4+int. At least it hasn't harmed mine.

I also, however, see the benefits in sticking with these fixed rules. Sure they are as flexible and customizable as iron but they do make things easier. Especially for me, the DM of my group, who might try and throw a bunch of high level rogue NPC's at them or need to make one on the fly that might later turn into a more fleshed out character.

So why not try and find a middle ground. Something that gives the flexibility of skill points and dispersing them(almost every character I have played would get a few ranks in heal if only so they could save a friend from death if necessary)but keeping it simple. Perhaps primary skills and secondary skills or something? I also think the minimum skills should be increased, if not to 4 than to 3, 2+Int is just far too small.

Anyway, that's my take. If I had to say toss skill points or keep 'em I'd choose keep, however, why choose left or right when you can go down the middle and possibly get something better?

Any idea when exactly this is coming out? Just curious so I can attempt to budget accordingly.

Personally I don't plan on buying any 4e edition books until I'm certain they're not a waste of money. For instance, if Wizards pulls the B.S. they did by reselling 3rd edition as 3.5, I want to wait until it comes out and save myself the trouble.