Deussu's page

As I've said on multiple other threads, I too proposed:
a) light armor proficiency
b) skill point increase to 4+int
c) medium BAB (3/4)
d) metamagic use doesn't increase casting time
e) bonus feat: Eschew Materials (if not already)
f) one extra spell known per spell level

Reasoning:
a) As a sorcerer's magic is innate, derives from possibly a supernatural being or from a strong influence of magic, it implies that the magic cast is closer to a spell-like ability. Over generations (or whatnot) the effect gets a tad mild, and in the end the sorcerer's spell casting isn't as good as a spell-like ability's. Whereas a sorcerer would cast a spell with a quick flick of a wrist.

b) Since a sorcerer does not need to spend weeks, months, or even years studying magic theory, she could do farm work at the crops or attend to stage shows and so on. A sorcerer's life is much more free, thanks to her innate abilities. A broken mug? Mending, no problem! They simply have more time to themselves. Now that there are no cross-class skills, a sorcerer with Profession (Farmer) would be a viable choice for a role-player.

c) Pretty much same as above; a sorcerer isn't bound to have 'all theory', but can instead go hunting with his fellows or whatnot.

d) A debate spoken about maybe too much. It's a really minor issue; removing the increase in casting time gives the sorcerer an image of greater power, the ability to shape magic more towards specific power than a wizard can.

e) Partly the same reasoning as in a). Deriving the spell casting from a supernatural ancestor, and the magic comes from within, not from petty materials. The exception comes with powerful magic which requires costly components.

f) This would be just to prevent a sorcerer being a one-trick-pony, having 4 slots on some level, and being able to cast only one particular spell at that level.

Personally I don't feel like a sorcerer, at least with these changes, should have the spell progression be transformed into a regular (wizard) type. Instead, with these modifications the sorcerer would definitely have a 'new' touch to it. There does lie a danger, however, as some people would become rebels and still use the house ruled version of their "ideal" sorcerer.

It appears as if there is no real way of creating a sorcerer that would please all. The above suggestions would make a sorcerer a viable choice for me at least (provided that warmages and beguilers keep out of PRPG for the time being.)

I'd gladly take comment on the ideas above.

Actually, it still does. You go up one level and the Sorcerer learns one 3rd level spell and picks up a 2nd level spell slot and 4 3rd level spell slots. The Wizard learns 2 additional 3rd level spells for free and gains a 2nd level and a 3rd level spell slot. And he picks up a 1st level and a 3rd level Spell like ability.

The Wizard still has more magic per day, and he still has more power and versatility at the high end than the Sorcerer does. Out of the box, the Wizard can cast one of five (or more) different 3rd level spells, the Sorcerer has his choice of one.

-Frank

Just to make sure I understand ... would, in your opinion, an additional spell known per spell level make a sorcerer much more playable? I doubt it's the only thing, but it most likely would make it a whole lot better.

Eh? This decision is largely made by the GM. I've seen and used all the following:

6x 4d6, drop lowest
7x 4d6, drop lowest, remove average score
6x 5d6, drop two lowest
6x 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s
x-point-buy

The 6x-4d6-drop-lowest is the most common, and would encourage it as normal play. Alternatively a 28-32 point-buy system is good for organized play and for those who don't want the dice to decide everything.

I agree on most parts. Well, some most parts, or something.

I was discussing the sorcerer's problems with my bro, who exclaimed the reason to be that a sorcerer is too "narrow". The lack of skill points and an inferior list of spells makes a sorcerer easily a one-trick-pony. One extra known spell for each spell level might do the appropriate change quite likely.

Next Saturday I'll test the sorcerer. And also by granting it cleric's BAB (3/4) and light armor proficiency, and see how it goes. Might make it too temptating though. We'll see.

How is this a problem? If Sho Kosugi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0467563/)is in my game, and he wants to sneak past 50 mook-level guards, they probably DON'T have any chance to spot him. Moreover, they shouldn't.

Sorry, I don't get this move towards mediocrity thing that people seem to want out of skills. If I invested 20 levels in stealth, I think the least I can expect is that the 10th level guy who didn't specialize in Perception has basically no chance to spot me.

Hm, I might have particularly chosen Stealth vs. Perception as my target. As you know, a whisper gnome from 3.5's Races of Stone can acquire a Hide bonus of +16 at 1st level. Some skills are simply just too easy to boost. And hiding with all kinds of dumb tricks, like XPH's Cloak Dance which gives you concealment, thus you are able to hide... practically in plain sight.

Now that I think of it, Stealth itself should get some sledging. I admit that being a superior sneaker is something one would likely to seek for. At the current time it's just too easy with certain builds.

On another point, diplomacy is a constant DC, yet a lot better than it was in 3.5. Since synergies were taking out, it balanced the skill somewhat. I might still see those Marshal/Warlock's roaming around with their +19 diplomacy.

I can understand why a cleric, sorcerer or wizard would get so few skill points as they lead a mostly sheltered life pursuing their chosen field of study (and they get more class skills) ...

Sorcerer? No, not likely, actually. They are given an innate ability that doesn't really require all that much training. I spoke with my brother yesterday, who exclaimed his dislike towards sorcerers to be the lack of skills.

I ask you, why should a sorcerer be an individual using a lot of her time studying? Studying what exactly?

Might I add some comments? Thank you.

- Mighty Blow requires 6 rage points, and adds 12 damage at 12th level, whereas Elemental Rage uses 12 rage points and adds only 1d6 damage. I would consider Elemental Rage more of a power requiring 3 rage points.

- I have to playtest Guarded Stance next Saturday. It just seems way too cheesy (1/2 level to AC?!)

- Animal Fury ... does the barbarian gain a bite attack which she could use as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty? Or is it a separate attack, thus beneficial only in grapple?

- Clear Mind? Well, he's in rage, I wouldn't call an ability "Clear Mind", but that's just me. I might find "Insuperable Hatred" more appealing. Just a suggestion.

- Increased Damage Reduction could be somewhat cheaper to use. +3/- to DR isn't all that amazing. Maybe 4 rage points per 1/-?

- I came up with one more possible power, "Blind Wrath", which would decrease the miss chance of a foe by one step (50% -> 20%, 20% -> 0%.) Simply put, the barbarian would become blind with rage. Maybe 6 rage points for that ability. I'm not sure how you calculated those costs.

Those rage powers are really neat, this is something I find extremely welcome to Pathfinder!

Hey there all,

I can certainly understand the desire to give more skill points. I think this will be an optional rule in the final system. I would prefer to keep the base numbers close for backwards compatibility reasons.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Exactly why I proposed 3,4,5,6 instead of 2,4,6,8. The current revision of the rogue has 21 skills in her class skill list, opposed to the original 29 in D&D 3.5. That's a 28% drop in that list.

Also, in PRPG the skill amount in total is 35, and in 3.5 it's 45. A drop of 23%. It'd only be fair to balance the skill point outlet in favor of fighters and other low-skill classes. If you aren't convinced this would be easy to convert? Spot & Listen -> Perception, Move Silently & Hide -> Stealth, Disable Device & Open Lock -> Disable Device etc. So practically the rogue doesn't lose any particular skill.

A fighter would, of course, receive a boon. Though I feel like it should be intended; a fighter always lacked so much outside of combat. And, well, inside combat as well.

And I really doubt it'd be somehow harder to calculate when you use odd numbers. With this kind of modification, the difference would still be visible, and the importance of intelligence greater even to a warrior.

Deussu wrote:

However, I'm disappointed how the designers didn't look up the "Sorcerer: A proposal" thread throughoutly. It held ideas for sorcerers who were born on some special day or under a shooting star or such. And how in the sake of some divine deity can one have an undead grandpa?!

There was the Destined one... that might be OK for your 'born under a lucky star' idea.

Ah, yes, missed that one.

I hope this thread will raise concentrated attention, so that no multiple threads about the same subject would pop up.

The following excerpt is from the bluff skill description:

Secret Messages: You can use Bluff to pass hidden messages
to another character without others understanding your
true meaning. The DC of this check is 15 for simple messages
and 20 for complex messages. If you are successful, the
target automatically understands you, assuming you are
speaking in a language that it understands. If your check
fails by 5 or more, you deliver the wrong message. Other
creatures that hear the message can decipher the message
by succeeding at an opposed Bluff check.

I see a problem with this. It suggests that the observer just somehow managed to understand you. Try that in real life. It just doesn't work that way. And since language is mentioned there, I'm assuming the secret message implies reading lips.

A sense motive check would be appropriate. Though then you'd have to think why to roll a bluff check, or how to be trained in delivering secret messages. I don't have a decent suggestion to this at the time, maybe you have?

Just make it cost a smite or turn undead use to activate beyond the standard once per day.

Hm, that might work swell. Hopefully a designer reads this.

On another thread I made a brave suggestion.

Instead of the current 2, 4, 6, and 8, I proposed different intervals. 3, 4, 5, 6. It balances the classes; no longer is the "1st level rogue" so much of an appealing choice. Furthermore, it fits better now that the skills have been decreased from 36 to 26.

Ah, the skill system. This debate will *never* be over. Both sides have their own loud defenders. I, although not obnoxiously loud, am siding the skill point system.

The current Alpha release 2 version is a definite improvement over the original 3.5 system. I won't go on over and over about how awesome it is, but mention some of the small flukes still presented.

The skill point amounts given by different classes are a bit too great. If instead of 2+int, 4+int, 6+int and 8+int we'd have 3+int, 4+int, 5+int, 6+int, it'd be more stable, and would correspond to the decreased amount of skills taken away (from 36 skills to 26 skills, a ~28% decrease.)

One thing the 4th edition fixes in a moderate way is the ridiculous gap between a trained stealth user and a normal dude. There's very little or no chance for the normal dude to spot the stealth user. A quick fix would be to decrease the ridiculous amount of synergies and other bonuses received from here and there.

Hm, there's a lot of posts here, of which I will ignore all but Jason's (because others are just saying the same thing over and over again.)

I'm gonna make a wild jump here. Instead of telling what's wrong and yadda yadda, I'll make suggestions.

We all know Warmage and Beguiler from other books and they are undoubtly more powerful than the basic D&D 3.5 sorcerer. They have the same BAB, same spell progression yet a larger repository of spells (yet with limited area of expertise), and are allowed to wear armor. Armor, you say? Well, I would consider it alright to allow a sorcerer to wear light armor despite the fact a sorcerer could easily just cast mage armor all the time.

Furthermore, considering that a sorcerer hasn't spent time with books and such, one might be more proficient. A moderate BAB (3/4) would give the sorcerer a slightly better chance with ranged weapons and weapon-like spells.

Metamagic is also an important issue. Reducing the needed casting time to the normal would indeed make metamagic more luring to a sorcerer, although I don't see the full-round casting as all that bad of a thing.

It all comes to the point where we ask ourselves what do we see in an iconic sorcerer? A powerful mage with an innate ability to shape the arcane forces, sure! Thus should a sorcerer receive a slight bonus to his/her caster level? For example, if one would get +1 CL on 3rd level, and increase that bonus for every 4 levels beyond 3rd, certain spells would likely increase in power. Would it be broken or just too powerful in comparison? I doubt it. Considering all the feedback, people are unbelievably disappointed with the class, for my amazement.

As for bloodlines, they could hold a certain affinity with the group of creature mentioned. Similar to the undead bloodline's (undeads have blood?) One of Us, a sorcerer could receive a mild +2 bonus when dealing with the creatures of his/her bloodline.

Balancing the abilities is a tough job, and it seems many people forget that. This is still in early alpha stage (it's been only a bit over month since the initial release, people!) and as Jason implied, things are subject to change, just as the skill system did. If my suggestions would be put to the table for consideration, the loudly pled modification of the sorcerer's spell progression to "2nd level spells at 3rd level" would possibly make it too powerful in comparison to the wizard.

I'll let the designer team make the appropriate changes. I'm merely here to watch, wait, and help.

As noted elsewhere by Jason Bulmahn, the hit die was incorrect in the PDF. Instead of d8, it should be d10. This information will probably be added to the PDF during the day. Of course, I couldn't be sure, I don't work for Paizo! ;)

Numerous pleas to change the Smite Evil from a lousy 1/day ability to a "+1d6/5 levels against evil critters" would make it a lot more appealing. Why do I suggest only 1d6/5 levels? If every weapon you hold from 3rd level to ad finitum would be a holy weapon, it'd be a bit too good.

The weapon bond could be similar to rage powers in one way; no need for consecutive rounds for it to apply. Furthermore, should the paladin choose a signature weapon so only it could be imbued with a divine spirit? It would effectively stop the aforementioned problem with weapon switching, and also make the paladin more ... concentrated, so to speak. In addition, making the weapon good-aligned when imbued with the spirit would be good, I mean, better.

Auras are nice, nothing to say about them. I wouldn't mind see having the Aura of Good have a meaning, however. It always felt like a completely useless class feature.

Should a paladin, in addition to curing diseases, be able to stop poisons? After all, diseases rarely have an influence on PCs, whereas poisons are often lethal.

I too second the paladin's smite revision. Instead of the 1/day poopy one-shot, a constant "+1d6 against evils" similar to sneak attack would be adequate. Of course, the progression should be slow; possible as slow as the original 3.5 paladin's smite ability (1st, 5th, 10th and so on).

Sorcerer is much more interesting, yes. To cope the negative effects of it, it really should have a regular progression of spell levels. It wouldn't make it all that much better than a wizzie.
And giving a sorcerer some natural attacks feels ... weird, yet I accept it as 'cool'. However, I'm disappointed how the designers didn't look up the "Sorcerer: A proposal" thread throughoutly. It held ideas for sorcerers who were born on some special day or under a shooting star or such. And how in the sake of some divine deity can one have an undead grandpa?!

Druid was a dissapointment. In WotC's PHB2 they made a nifty alternative for the animal companion and wild shape, even though some might say it's a "wowism". Simply make the wild shape not so limited to x/day, x/hour. Egh, maybe someone owning the book might take a look at it. I don't know about them copyright stuffs, so I better be silent.

A druid's power doesn't come from the wild shape, I've noticed. The animal companion can in present day D&D 3.5 become a superior killing machine, no longer needing the druid for more than a few buffs and occasional Empowered Arc Lightning.

I like barbarian, a lot. Despite the added book-keeping, it retains a fresh feel to it. However I'd look more closely to some of the rage powers. Guarded Stance seems awfully overpowered. +10 dodge bonus to AC at 20th level? At that level it actually holds a meaning!

Even though this isn't relevant to Alpha release 2 classes, fighter's Armor Mastery DR should be 10/-. At those late levels monsters tend to hit 4d6+20 damage, and thus a 10/- isn't that superior. It's adequate to make a difference, and not overwhelmingly powerful.

My vote is cast on the "keep skill point system". I see little idea in reducing variation in skills. "Always maxed out" is against the general principle of the pathfinder system.

Ahem.

@Blue_Eyed_Paladin: Actually a barbarian rage's fatigue is on only for the rest of the encounter. Thus rarely applies at all.

@Arnim Thayer: Bardic Music provides four extra musics per day.

As for the rage points/powers, this gives the barbarian the long wanted variety. Maybe now the barbarian is scrapped from its multiple basic abilities (fast movement, for one) and given a rage power instead.

Yadda yadda I dislike the elf ears too. Tolkien-esque is fine, it's safe and works.

Okay, now that's done and I can contribute. Yes, Eva Widermann's art is practically all I'd ask for. Wayne Reynolds was introduced to me in Eberron books, thus every picture I see done by him, it reminds me of Eberron. Also, his style is very easily recognized.

Maybe give the artists a guide line "even if this is fantasy, give them clothes". ;)

I too could say to have problems with wizard's specialisation granting just more and more SLAs. I'd wish for something more imaginative. Conjurers could cast summoning spells as standard actions (free Reach metamagic), Abjuration could give SR instead (10 + ½CL or something, merely an example), Evokers could apply metamagic feats to Evocation spells with one level slot lower, etc.

Since I tend to look more into the flavour-side of the class, I must admire the imagination you've put on this, K. No longer is a sorcerer born since his aunt or uncle was some sort of a dragon or a magical being. This would also bring up new kinds of adventure hooks and hobbies and traditions, as youngsters attempt to achieve magical aplitude by foreign rituals, or venture to hidden caves they found abandoned.

I might suggest some sort of a list about possible ways of achieving sorcery (Favored Stars, Heir of a Hero, Royal Blood etc.), and give a minor bonus depending on which you choose. This would give further variation to the class.

I must say that armor still doesn't feel like "the thing the mages do". You also have to be wary not to make Sorcerer more powerful than a wizard. If the 2nd level is removed, they are almost on the equal level. Wizard's prestige would lie in the repository of spells, where as sorcerer would be able to cast more often, quicker, same level, and so on.

I also agree on familiars. Sorcerers have an innate way of casting spells, but it shouldn't magically bring them a bird or such. This'd be a welcome modification. Hopefully the designer are reading this proposal!

And spell books! A sorcerer always frowns when a spell book is found. I can already imagine how a sorcerer places her hand on the magic text and lets the magic flow through her, whereas the wizards would read their foes the last words they'll hear. Yeah, I like this.

Metamagic... so they could cast as a standard action? This would definitely make them useful. They'd still burn more power from the sorcerer, thus limiting the abuse of those.

More spells? Yes. Definitely. Also make sure no warmages, beguilers or such variants enter the game. They make the sorcerer frown.

Skills.. I don't think sorcerers should get all that much more than 2+int. Wizards, on the other hand, should get 4+int. They're the educated ones!

All in all, this looks very good.

Even though I don't have nearly any spare time to contribute to be a volunteer, I might consider such an option later (after Living Greyhawk ends).

It's a huge pity that Ropecon, presumably the largest RPG convention held in Northern Europe is merely one week BEFORE Gen Con, thus not able to hold any Pathfinder games. All that can be done is promo work. Well, I'm sure I'll be mentioning that to others.

Most likely the Pathfinder Society serves as a spiritual successor to those who have been enraged by the discontinuation of Living Greyhawk.

Furthermore, there aren't many retail stores in Finland that would have adequate gaming space. Actually, I can't think of any. This might be an obstacle in trying to spread the game in stores. Worth a try though.

I like both Remy's and Salama's sheets. Salama's has a nice touch with the paper and is compact, Remy's holds all relevant information on the front page with a slight expense of visual candy.

I have my own ideas how to improve them, however. Remy's sheet could use less of those dark brown boxes, and dare copy the "hand stroked line" from Salama's sheet to give it a more "Hand crafter feel".

A separate box where you can fill the total Armor Check Penalty would be nice. This applies to both sheets.

In Remy's sheet, the "temporary score" text in the statistics boxes is too light. It wouldn't hurt to make it a bit more darker.

That's all for now.