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Irori

DeciusBrutus's page

3,901 posts. Alias of Daniel Powell 318.


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Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
So, you think "getting the murderer flag without losing reputation" is the exploit?

Gaining the murderer flag is not so much the exploit, it's committing suicide to gain an achievement that is the problem.

It has not been mentioned yet, but this will lead to "kill swapping", which would probably be considered an exploit.

You mean, exactly the same dynamic that is enabled by feuds? I agree that it is an undesired emergent behavior, but the only way to remove the incentive that I see would be to remove the PvP achievement.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Xeen wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Xeen wrote:

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

What is the exploit? Is it that you don't lose Reputation for attacking yourself? Is it that you gain the murderer flag for killing yourself? Is it that anyone can attack someone with the murderer flag without reputation loss?

Using a game mechanic in an unintended way for your gain is an exploit. That includes getting the murder flag so people can attack you consequence free, thereby giving you the opportunity to kill someone for achievements.

The type of exploits the both of you have been arguing about as long as I can remember.

So, you think "getting the murderer flag without losing reputation" is the exploit?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?
Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

I think ESPN would differ:

Quote:
[fade in, camera shows the presenter]: Welcome all! This is ESPN transmitting directly from the Beira-Mar Stadium in Portugal! I’m Richard Hornochsen and I’m here to present you the finals of the Tic-Tac-Toe World Championships. This has been an incredible week here for all of us in the ESPN team, it’s a rare privilege to rub shoulders with so many luminaries of this ancient game. We are all really very proud to have had the opportunity to meet and talk to so many masters and grandmasters. But, as you all know, nothing lasts forever, so now we’re here for the final match, the one game that will decide who’s going to be crowned world champion.

The first page of Google results has only basic information and parodies, including that one.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?

Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
So, you haven't started enough things to reprioritize? That's... sad.

You don't measure the quality of your dedication based on what you started, but on what you have followed through to their successful or satisfactory conclusions.

I never left a job, without having a new and better job to step into. Therefore, I never quit a job, but instead moved on.

I never started an educational program I did not complete. High school diploma and three college degrees. Added to that several stages of licensing and other training courses.

I served in the military for one term of 8 years. Numerous training schools, including three MOSs, Primary Leadership Course and several other training courses (Crew Served Weapons training; Drug Testing Team).

I have beta tested a dozen or more computer games (primarily MMOs), as well have completed or concluded many games.

I'm assuming you might consider leaving a game, quitting a game. I would argue against that particular judgement. MMOs have several forms of "conclusion" in my view.

1. Completing all tasks of the main story.
2. Competing all tasks of main quests and side quests.
3. Leveling a character to the level cap.
4. The game shuts down.
5. The addition of new content does not keep up with your consumption of it.

I could probably add a half dozen more examples, but I think I have shown my point.

The argument made in the article you linked, does not explain the argument you believe you are making or refute the argument I have made.

None of those accomplishments is the equivalent of becoming a world-class chess player. Many of them are the equivalent of playing chess competitively, plateauing at the level where you are the best player that you know personally, and then not playing chess competitively anymore.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters.
Are you a world class chess player ? If not, are you a quitter ?

I never played chess competitively, but if I did I would continue playing up through the ranks until I played at a world class level.

If you're asking me if I ever quit anything, "No", nothing of any substance and certainly not as a teenager or into adulthood.

So, you haven't started enough things to reprioritize? That's... sad.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
... it may only take a couple of maxed out level nine AoEs to drop them all. It does take a couple of seconds to wind up a second one, so hopefully they'll have the presence of mind to scatter after the first one.

I was laughing to myself yesterday wondering if I would ever have the opportunity to kite a half-dozen players the way I do mobs, and consistently hit more than one of them with my AoEs. It doesn't seem likely :)

A popular way would be to get them all in melee with the same friendly, and then nuke one of the crowd. ;)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Stealth is usable with no training; there is a rouge armor or role feat that boosts stealth, and stealth can be trained with (I think) only subterfuge achievement and dexterity. Testing PvP and PvE effectiveness of stealth has not been rigorous, but there are PvE effects.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes. The social achievement being attainable by suicide was a bag report. Additionally, there is an additional bug that I am trying to figure out how to reproduce that appears to present during repeated suicides. Observing the state which is presumed to be Murderer was a side observation of testing the above.

Alpha is about testing stuff, and behavior that would likely be considered abusive in EE is not just expected but often required to perform conscientious testing. That would be sufficient reason for a wipe at the end of Alpha, even though it doesn't hold a candle to the various real reasons.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The delay for a weapon swap feels like about 4 seconds. I'll add stopwatching that to my todo.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

T7V Avari wrote:
What Tombstone said. As it pertains to Harad's wonderful map: No the RA is not a dead document, but it probably does not belong on a political Land Rush map.

Concur. The RA is not intended to be a political entity that it would be meaningful to map.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The Crimson Permanent Assurance meets The Producers!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Guurzak wrote:

My understanding was that knowledge skills improve the volume of yield from a gathering operation, but don't change the quality. Harvesting better stuff requires more harvesting skill, not knowledge. I could be wrong on that, but it doesn't seem desirable from a play balance standpoint to force dedicated miners to max out an Intelligence-based skill in order to find the best ore.

Meaningful choices. It isn't easy to be a dedicated ANYTHING.

Which means that there will be fewer cookie-cutter builds that waste the mathematical minimum with no tradeoffs.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Guurzak wrote:

Decius, I was thinking about the xp investment more than the achievement time.

But that raises an interesting question: are there training prerequisites on learning recipes which would prevent you from simply creating a +3 ingot as your first make? It would make more sense to me to require a stepwise progression like we see in other areas of the game.

Currently you only need the recipe; you can learn ingots +3 as soon as you can make ingots +0. I don't know if that will change later, but if it does it will harm the economy by requiring more production of resources for reasons other than sale.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kemedo wrote:

Whiles roles are not write in the stone: What about a Fighter/Rogue Speced to PvP (archer/2h, charges, slows, sneaks, HP and Protection - The best of both for kill casters), using only cloth armor for magic defense, getting a mage in the field?

Don't forget we have the option to customize our choices...

I'll try to get as close to monk as possible: fast melee attacker that specializes in anti-ranged fighting. Currently there's no monklike weapons or armor implemented, so it might initially be a greatsword and robes.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I had merely suggested that all characters train basic combat / survival skills and if the need arose that they defend the settlement during a siege, they do so.
I don't think this is too much to ask, to be honest. Given that basic rank 1 skills are just a drop in the bucket in terms of XP cost you really aren't asking much of a sacrifice to say hey, please train some rank 1 combat skills...just in case.

A thousand XP or so gets you to the point that you won't be negligible in a fight, but I suspect that it won't make you a major contributor.

A bunch of archers with cheap bows might be the lowest-hanging fruit for mass combat; they won't last long if engaged, but they will do more than zero damage if unmolested and will distract a combatant briefly if engaged.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Xeen wrote:

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

What is the exploit? Is it that you don't lose Reputation for attacking yourself? Is it that you gain the murderer flag for killing yourself? Is it that anyone can attack someone with the murderer flag without reputation loss?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The heavy armor fighter swaps to his bow, drops a slowing attack on the wizard, then uses a charge attack. The Master Of Opprutunity reactive feats apply knockdown and interrupt if the wizard used ranged spells or moves; once the distance is closed, it doesn't open up again without an evasion ability (which can be countered with another charge).

Next weekend we'll have to have a bunch of people murder themselves a lot and resolve the discussion.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
<Tavernhold>Malrunwa Soves wrote:

"That suicide is painless

It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is.

I recognized the lyrics as from M*A*S*H when I saw them, but for some reason I thought they were from some kind of musical production...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Because it's extra, baby.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

pavaan wrote:

I am a little overwhelmed by the number of company and settlements that i have seen. I don't know who to ask to join. I would like a company or settlement that i could play with. the time that i can play is 11 am -4 pm pacific time. I am thinking of playing a fighter tank and i have fun gathering i have found.

only post like this i will make and i will not bump it.

What kind of play style do you expect? Sword-and-board heavy armor fighter is an equipment and feat loadout, not a playstyle.

Are you interested in a position of tactical leadership, making decisions regarding party targeting, or would you prefer to only have to know your own niche, rather than everyone's?

How well do you handle costly defeats; are you happy to rearm and charge back into a battle against superior equipped enemies if the strategic plan is to wear them down by attrition, or does that sound too much like repeatedly losing to you?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
FMS Quietus wrote:
I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.

This I can believe as it sound like you are saying you enjoy and are good at arena PvP but are not good at and don't enjoy Open World PvP.

That's not surprising Arena PvP focuses on providing very even (balanced) fights in which the team/player that plays better should always win while uneven and seemingly random battle conditions are the essence of Open World PvP.

It's less about mastering your character's combat abilities (though that helps) and more about learning how to manipulate the conditions of the Open World environment in your favor. It's entirely possible to be good at one but not the other. However I find those that are successful at open world PvP tend to enjoy open world PvP.

Among people who regularly engage in open world PvP (using your phrasing of it), I suspect that success is slightly negatively correlated with how well they enjoy it. I say that because I expect that some people who are good at it experience outside pressure to perform.

Do you know anyone at all who doesn't like open world PvP who still regularly seeks it out?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Myself, circa 1999, playing Diablo on battle.net. You haven't been looking.

So you were very successful at Diablo PvP and did not enjoy it? Forgive me but I believe one of those two statements to be false. The rush of being successful at PvP aside I don't think anyone who wasn't enjoying PvP would invest the time and practice needed to become successful.

Unless what you actually mean is you were good at and enjoyed Diablo PvP, but are not good at and do not enjoy Open World PvP. I could believe that.

No, I was good at it, in that I would win more than 50% of the time when some random yahoo started attacking me, and I didn't like it, in that whether I won or lost, I would no longer play with the player who attacked me.

Diablo PvP was virtually the same skill as PvE, which was more enjoyable because it included the Skinner Boxes which made me feel like I was accomplishing something

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gol Tigari wrote:

Thats what we're talking about Decius. How long should assassins have to "Observe" a target before we can kill them. I don't care how long it takes them to get into place, or all ready. Once the team is staged, and where they need to be, and they pop the "Observe" skill, how long should it take before they can "assassinate" a target

I don't think you should have to Observe at all. I think that the advantage of an observation should be that your initial attack(s) gain a moderate bonus to base damage.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

So, every merchant will additionally be required to evaluate the creditworthiness of banks, and guess how likely they are to fold before he can liquidate his paper? Or when Bank of Exploits issues a cashiers check and then gets sacked and burned, do the looters not get the coin that became the check? (In which case, it's a complicated way of changing coin to have encumbrance, then making a special case of coin weightless without adding any interesting effects).

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it
Do you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.

Myself, circa 1999, playing Diablo on battle.net. You haven't been looking.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

It's up now.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Darcnes wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
If coin has weight and mass, the economy becomes crippled. Merchants cannot move enough coins fast enough to the market hubs to engage in production at scale.

Cashier's checks. Using the escrow system, the ownership of money can be transferred without it physically being displaced. I believe there is a lot of value to be had in the resulting ramifications.

Ryan Dancey wrote:

If coin has no weight or mass, the Settlement will divide its wealth among a large number of proxy characters that will be created expressly for this purpose. [...]

Result will be a system (looting Settlements) that rarely actually gets used.


  • Settlements would not be able to vanish their money on a whim.
  • Looting settlements retains a high value.
  • Goblinworks can easily track the location of these funds.
  • Players would still need to move money to the bank by hand after adventuring.
  • Players would be able to access large amounts of wealth without issue.
  • Players and even Settlements and Nations are passively encouraged to proactively spread their wealth to facilitate trade, and possibly to protect their wealth if they are weak.

I would be very interested to hear what negatives you believe a system like this might entail.

What happens to the people who accepted cashier's checks when the bank that issued them is looted?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Guurzak wrote:

And con is in the critical path for leveling any role in medium or heavy armor, so we definitely need more options for raising it.

It looks like getting either fighter or cleric fully leveled requires significant investment in not one but two con-based tradeskills. That design will lead to market saturation with metal ingots, and no profitable niche for commoners.

Maximizing smelting can be done smelting only six items. You need a common and uncommon +3 or better of each tier.

Right now you'd probably also want to trade tanning, sawyer, and probably carpentry for additional constitution and crafting feats. I really hope that more skills get added, or constitution benefits get adjusted, so that crafting feats are not strictly required to advance in armor skills.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Being wrote:
Kitsune Aou wrote:

It would certainly be adding a lot to their A.I., so this would be a significant task for the programming team. They'd have to make each individual mob aware of the location of all other mobs in the area, and then make judgement calls based how many are left in their group, how close they are to other groups... etc.

But it certainly would be cool.

I don't think they have to make each individual mob aware of all other mobs in the area. The mob just has to have an ever expanding friend-or-foe radar that polls outward while it is running until it finds friends. Sorta like an aggro range.

Omniscience is easier to do than partial knowledge.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

All true, but the coin drains will be largely non-discretionary.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

What are the odds that any given group that purports to be a lending agency will pay off their debts to all of the "Merchant B"s and/or "Client C"s, or even a significant fraction of them?

How would you differentiate between a lender that honestly wanted to do so and a Ponzi scheme?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Stephen Cheney wrote:

I don't know that setting up runners is that hard, in the grand scheme of things. It's just that they don't tend to be particularly fun for players. If they run and don't get help, you just wind up sitting around for the remaining creature to come strolling back after forgetting why he was terrified in the first place. If they bring friends, you can often wind up with a whole overwhelming cascade of creatures when you thought you were picking on something you could handle. Our aggro distance and group aggro is already higher than a lot of MMOs (in that you will get the whole group and get it fairly far away), so you can already pull multiple groups if you're not careful, which should account for it being fun to sometimes bite off more than you intended and win anyway.

Which is to say, the problem is less about programming it, and more about it falling on the wrong side of "Creatures behave enough like enemy players to not train you wrong for PvP" vs. "Creatures are nearly as deadly as enemy players and thus extremely stressful to fight."

Making runners is easy. Making runners that are smart enough without being too smart is hard. Drawing aggro from every goblin in the hex when you attack any goblin is easy. Drawing aggro from the amount of goblins that make sense is hard.

I would like to see some tougher goblin champions, and even a few spawns of goblins that, like Fallen Paladin cluster, can make a group pause before steamrolling them. I hope that idea is just waiting on some more awesome artwork for the next tier of goblin. (Advanced Goblin Cleric of Zarongel, anyone?)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's a cool idea, but it just isn't the low-hanging fruit on improved AI.

The easiest close approach would be a monster recognizing that it was over matched and running away from enemies/towards friends. Even that level of sophistication is hard to figure in the general case.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Do you mean "more than half of their total cash reserves"?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Loans aren't money stored in the bank, even on the part of the lender.

Unless you think that players will sell on credit but require the seller to maintain some kind of fractional reserve... somehow.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Additionally, there's the hard to value costs of crafting queue time and capital experience spent on crafting as well as capital investment in the facilities.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
It does require that a guild prefer a site based on which site other guilds get.
Unless two large groups show up--or three....

If your preferences are independent of which site another guild gets, then you can do no better than listing those preferences.

Getting to be near (or far from) a specific guild, particularly if they don't coordinate with you or have preferences other than being close to you, is rather more difficult.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gaskon wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Unless at least one group put forth preferences that were not their true preference (possibly because they didn't know who their neighbors would be), a trade where both parties get a choice they want more is impossible.

Group A's top priority is to be close to Group B.

Group C's top priority is to be near swamp hexes.

Group D adds 100 members just before the close of the landrush and bumps everyone around to lower choices, such that group A ends up in a swamp hex far away from group B, and group C ends up in a plains hex close to Group B.

Groups A and C can swap settlements and both be happier for it.

EDIT: Now I'm trying to think if this is actually possible if everyone set their preference list correctly...

It is: group a can get their first choice (which happens to be near a swamp), group b can get bumped to a corner, and group c can get a low choice in that corner.

It does require that a guild prefer a site based on which site other guilds get.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Coordinate your lists with your allies', and anticipate the choices of others. That isn't a perfect solution, because of imperfect information.

A system where groups who had their first choice blocked could change based on the choices of groups with more votes than them would be fair, but even if the timeframe for making choices was short, it would take several days to go down the lists.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

What advantage (to PFO) would accrue from making it difficult to earn value in one location and spend it in a distant location?

Realism is not an advantage in a fantasy roleplaying game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Unless at least one group put forth preferences that were not their true preference (possibly because they didn't know who their neighbors would be), a trade where both parties get a choice they want more is impossible.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I am unsure if it is possible to e.g. get the Cleric dedication bonus while using the Unbreakable armor slot.

As far as I can tell, your armor feat is always active when slotted, and activates the keywords on appropriate armor. I'll check this weekend whether the secondary benefits apply when wearing the wrong armor.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Guurzak wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I will not limit myself by the scapegoat of "Well you can do it, but we prefer you don't, but there will be no punishment if you do". That is a Green Light! in my book.
What if their actual stance is "Well you can do it, but we prefer you don't, and we will arbitrarily punish this behavior in a heartbeat if we think that's good for the game"?

"but there will be no punishment if you do". Was part of my statement. If you introduced the exact opposite, my statement no longer applies.

The mindset I want to make clear I reject, on the part of developers, is that they have a known issue in the game and instead of fixing it they tell us nothing about it. They don't admit it exists, they don't declare it an exploit, they don't fix it, but they expect the player to just not do it.

If it is not a big enough deal to fix, it's not a big enough deal not to use.

That hasn't, and won't, happen. Exploits have already been declared to be against the spirit of the game and using them is subject to arbitrary and capricious punishment.

The stance regarding a known issue that hasn't been publicized is much closer to "Well you can do it, but we prefer you don't, and we will arbitrarily punish this behavior in a heartbeat if we think that's good for the game" than "... and we won't punish it".

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Aet Khorvak McTiernan wrote:

Not being part of Alpha makes me wonder if this isn't unintentional. As FOO pointed out heavy armor is heavy armor. It doesn't matter who's wearing it...and it's not like the Clergy have a "special" way of wearing it. It's probably a simple over site that will be taken care of in due time.

Fear not...is only Alpha.

But... clerics DO have a different way of wearing armor. That's why Crusader is different from Unbreakable.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Are you suggesting that Unbreakable should qualify as one of the armor feats required to get Cleric levels?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Summersnow wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Chatting with Ryan the other day, he was very excited about the beginning of Early Enrollment when everyone will start the game with 0 XP, no Role-based Feats, and a Club.

I hope he is not forgetting this:

$10 - Class Pack

When characters arrive in the River Kingdoms in Pathfinder Online, they do so with little wealth or equipment to their name. A Class Pack will provide the character with a selection of items appropriate to a lower level character
of the class selected when the class pack is used. Each pack will include a weapon, a suit of armor (torso, legs, and helmet if applicable), and three or four other items of such as thieves tools, shields, boots, gloves, belts, hats,
etc. One Class Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.

I am curious, would people consider this to constitute "pay to win" in a pvp based game where everyone else starts pretty much naked?

At what point does something like like cross the line from "a cash store that does not provide anything of significant mechanical advantage" which is I believe how GW advertised a proposed cash store to one that is Pay to Win?

It becomes Pay to Win at the point where the playing field is divided into those who have purchased, and those who have not.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

If you choose to have your character make a public statement, expect that people will attribute your character's statement and motives to you.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I think that right now Coal is the fundamental unit of account but that may just be a bad assumption.

You need Coal to make magic swords and everyone is going to want a magic sword and Coal only drops in any meaningful amount in one hex. Iron (the other major component for swords) is dropped all over the map. So the rate at which swords can be made is dependent on Coal, which means coal is therefore a proxy for value in the game's economy.

You also need Leather Strips. I do not have the Leather Strips recipe. But I really really want one.

BTW, I will trade Coal for recipes and recipes for Coal. If you wanna make a deal, post your offer here or on the Alpha Forums so everyone in Alpha can see the market prices.

I'm not sure at the moment what recipes I have, but if I had leather strips +1 and/ +2 recipe, what would your offer?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Without seeing what the coin drains are, I can't estimate how desirable it will be to acquire things which destroy coin, which will determine a lot of things about the economy.

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