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Deadmanwalking's page

RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 10,056 posts (10,258 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 3 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

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Being a Good pirate is entirely reasonable. Being a pirate involves stealing stuff, but that's not Evil inherently, and it doesn't necessitate anything Evil per se. Many pirates do stuff that makes them not Good, but it's not a requirement.

To answer your actual questions:

1. Depends on how you do it. I mean, raiding in the 'run around killing people who try and stop you' sense is indeed probably out. Sneaking into port and doing something a bit more subtle might be fine, though.

2. Killing people who are actually guilty of crimes worthy of death is seldom Evil. Breaking your word is Chaotic. Thus a CG character can absolutely kill people under those circumstances. Marooning them is also an excellent alternative for the more squeamish, however.

3. Change your Alignment if you want. Or don't. CG piracy doesn't strike me as much more restrictive or less fun than the CN variety.

Liberty's Edge

I dunno if that particular build is that reliant on the Twisting Fear damage, honestly. Twisting Fear is solid, and nice to have, but nobody going TWF and pounce really relies on it for damage.

As for the basic advice...first, I'm not sure what Boar Style really gets you in terms of Twisting Fear synergy that Enforcer won't. Enforcer requires non-lethal damage but there are lots of ways to get that (Blade of Mercy is likely easiest)...and things immune to non-lethal are immune to Twisting Fear anyway.

Second, going TWF is a little risky unless you grab the right Talents. This is super tricky for a Wildsoul build since you lose half of them.

That said, some specific Talents that help with Stalker accuracy absolutely exist. Taking Cunning Feint and hitting 8th level lets you give up one attack and get to attack vs. flat-footed AC for the rest of the round, for example. Surprise Strike added to this makes for a very nice accuracy indeed...but we're getting into a very specific build there. Especially if you also want Eerie Disappearance and Twisting Fear. And you might want to grab Lethal Grace in there, too...

The Natural Weapon idea also isn't bad at all, though it only helps accuracy somewhat, meaning I'd still grab some additional enhancers if possible.

Liberty's Edge

There's a LN undead Monk dedicated to Irori in a module. He's guarding some specific knowledge and passes on once it's passed on to other guardians.

So undead devotees are valid, but trying to exist in perpetuity in that state probably isn't normal.

Liberty's Edge

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I wouldn't drag this out. It's just barely plausible that a Lich could pull the wool over the nobles eyes sufficiently to get a bounty put on the PCs and an Inquisitor sent. It's really stretching the bounds of plausibility (and will thus be frustrating and unpleasant for the players) if he somehow manages to do it again, this time to a highly respected Inquisitor, since everyonje would basically need to be complete idiots to believe a random noble accused of lichdom over an Inquisitor of, say, Abadar. Certainly not without checking the noble (and checking if someone is undead is actually super easy if you know who to check).

As others have suggested, have the Inquisitor show up and be honest (he doesn't need to be nice, just honest), and have him find the PCs summarily innocent (even killing the bounty hunters is almost certainly self-defense, since they certainly didn't know there was a bounty out and thus just knew people were attacking them). End the 'PCs wrongly accused' plot right there. The lich might also die there, or might get away, your call...but dragging this particular plot out is a seriously bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea? Both for reasons of verisimilitude as noted above, and because it's a plot that deprives the PCs of something they worked hard for (public acclaim in this case). Plots that undo what the PCs have accomplished have a real tendency to be frustrating and unpleasant for the players, and if overused lead to the impression they can never accomplish anything so why bother trying? They make the players feel helpless, and that's generally a really bad thing, and no fun at all.

This plot isn't in the latter category yet by any means, but it gets there pretty quick if they try to clear up the situation and are balked at every turn by things they don't even have the chance to do anything about.

Of course, all this assumes they cooperate with the Inquisitor. If they attack him like idiots, all bets are off and it's their own fault.

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
They really aren't small group though at least with the way they are written. In fact their influence is so big that they almost started wars which is kind of bizarre.

They're a small group per capita.

thejeff wrote:
Do they really focus on the Sczarni that much? I know they were a PFS faction, but beyond that?

No, they get brought up almost not at all.

MadScientistWorking wrote:
First Steps. Part of the problem is that the person running it hammed it up to ridiculous manners immediate reaction was,"Why is the Italian Mafia a part of this setting?" I wonder if the Sczarni are one of those things like the Scarab Sages where its predominantly a Pathfinder Society toy to play with.

Yeah, I think that's where the disconnect is. The Sczarni aren't a big thing in the setting as a whole. Certainly not to nearly the degree you're implying. They exist, but come up seldom and are very much in the minority.

PFS is apparently a bit of a different story...but also neither canonical to the setting as a whole, nor written/edited by the same people as setting materials. Using PFS to say things about the setting as a whole is thus extremely dubious in many ways.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, Golarion is notably more inclusive of various real-world groups, and clearly intentionally so.

Eberron is intentionally much more of a 'shades of grey' setting, hence more 'monster race' background and culture...but that's not exactly 'progressive' in any intentional sense, just a way for the setting to distinguish itself.

And besides, even in that arena Paizo has at least one canonical CG Orc (and several who are Neutral), a LN Vampire, a redeemed Demon, and similar things, so they acknowledge that 'evil monsters' aren't always so.

Which isn't a damning indictment of Eberron or anything, mind you, Eberron is cool. But Golarion is definitely more 'progressive'.

Liberty's Edge

Varisian Tattoo is probably the easiest. You need Adopted to take it, but that's very doable (and, for an Aasimar, likely just means you were born to Varisians).

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Chess Pwn wrote:
but is it better than a bard? Or any archetype that gets inspired courage? At lv7 I could be giving the same bonus with 9th level casting. I'm just trying to find a reason this would be better than another class at something niche.

Well, it's worse at skills than Bard...most days, though it can get any skill set it wants by going Marshall.

It also has access to the entire raft of condition removal spells available to a Cleric, something many bards would kill for, and can pick many of its spells on a daily basis ala prepared casters (and indeed, can pick some on the fly via spirit abilities), and from its choice of the Wizard and Cleric lists on any individual day. Both are very nice advantages over Bard.

It's certainly lacking in the raw power of an Evangelist Cleric, but then so's a Bard.

Liberty's Edge

Far Strike and Scaled Fist don't stack. The starknife trick mentioned above would still work with a level of Cleric and Crusader's Flurry, though. Assuming you can manage to be a NG Monk, anyway (which is doable).

Another possibility is grabbing a few levels of Paladin, then going Monk. 4 levels of Oath of Vengeance Paladin is a good 'dip' on most martial builds that are based on Charisma. Go Paladin of Bahamut and this even makes good thematic sense.

Dipping one level of Scaled Fist is also a solid dip for a Sorcerer or Oracle...if you're willing to dip either of those classes at all (which is a big if).

Liberty's Edge

Chess Pwn wrote:

sorry, I forgot that it was tied to the bard archetype.

Still not convinced it's that great. Bards and mediums have heroism as lv2 spell, which is a great long term buff. Having your lv2 house heroism and haste still doesn't seem like much of a benefit to having lv2 be heroism and lv3 be haste.

So yes, it is technically better, but not something I feel is better enough to tout it as a benefit.

Eh. You can always use a higher level spell slot on a spell, if you like. And it's not like I was saying it was the best thing ever, it was third on my list of benefits, and touted explicitly as a 'side benefit'.

It is not the reason that Storyteller going Hierophant/Archmage is a good build.

By 7th level, you're giving the party bigger bonuses than a standard Medium, while doing 6-level casting instead of 4-level, and having personal bonuses almost on par with a Champion Medium (you're at about a total of -1 or -2 to hit, -3 or -4 damage personally...unless spells enhance that). Taking a penalty of that sort to give the entire rest of the party +2 to +4 to hit and up to +2 damage is a decent trade in its own right, never mind the extra higher level spells (and/or ones from a different list).

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Chess Pwn wrote:
It's not that big of a benefit compared to a full-caster. how many lv2 slots you have at lv7 isn't really a big deal to how many a full caster has of 3rd level for haste at lv7. A real sorcerer or wizard would be a better fit than this imitation wizard. Other 6th level casters usually have class features to help them feel useful in combat. This class doesn't. The only combat advantage over a real wizard is 3/4 bab instead of 1/2 bab. Even the caster rogue has more than that.

It's not a full caster replacement, though. It's a Bard replacement, with Bardic Performance as a Bard of its level. Haste as a 2nd level spell is a pretty nice option for a character like that.

Or did you not check the Storyteller Archetype? Because that's the heart of the build I was suggesting.

QuidEst wrote:
Well, you also have Inspire Courage. That's a pretty big deal.

Yeah, this.

Liberty's Edge

Chess Pwn wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.
Haste is a lv2, but only once you've learned it as a medium, so not till lv7. So you get it the same time other 6th levels are gaining haste. So it's not as awesome because you're not gaining early access to it.

Sure, but once you get it at 7th you're spending 2nd level slots on it, not 3rd. Which is a pretty big side benefit.

Liberty's Edge

You can do a pretty solid build around the Storyteller Archetype and Archmage or Hierophant (or alternating between the two on a per day basis). It plays more like a casting-focused Bard rather than a traditional Medium build, but has the ability to switch out which spells it has on a per day basis, which is solid. Plus stuff like Haste as a 2nd level spell, which is a nice side-benefit.

Liberty's Edge

The damage is actually worse than that due to Power Attack and being able to use the longsword two-handed. That makes it +27/+27/+22 (1d8+33/17-20 plus bleed). Or 3d8+99 damage if all attacks hit (which is likely).

The Erlking is a scary guy.

Liberty's Edge

I'd probably go Bard (or Mesmerist) instead of Sorcerer. All you really need it for is the Bloodline Power, and that's what Eldritch Heritage is for.

That gives you Glibness, which really helps. Negotiator Bards actually get Rogue Talents as well as a flat +1/2 level to Bluff as well, so you could easily go straight Negotiator (since you basically just want Rogue for the talents). Plus that gives you Pageant Of The Peacock, which is amazing for this concept (and another +4 Bluff). Which totals Bluff +46 or so, +66 with Glibness.

Frankly, I think that version of the character is better in just about every way (okay, maybe not as a melee combatant, but he's on par even there).

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, it's not so much that a 9th level character can't have a chance against an Erlking in a straight fight (though usually their odds aren't gonna be great). It's that the Erlking can move off and then summon 3 Dire Tigers, 3 Treants, and a Storm Giant to back him up (and can give them all Haste)...or several other combinations of minions. It can use Repel Metal to keep you at bay while it summons, too.

Also, most 9th-10th level character just die to the Erlking's Black Tentacles. +25 CMB checks to grapple are nothing to sneeze at. Freedom of Movement will protect you from this...if you happen to have it pre-cast.

Liberty's Edge

My general advice for something like this:

1. Ask them all to roll to identify it. Well, all with Knowledge (Nature) anyway. Someone is likely to roll high if you have more than one PC with that skill. Either that identifies it...or more likely, it doesn't. Casually mention what CR it must be for that not to have worked.

2. Have its first action be terrifying. Summoning a Storm Giant is indeed one good option. I mean, that's a CR 13 creature in its own right, and people paying attention will know that's a 9th level spell (hint: when 9th level PCs meet things that can do 9th level spells, they should know to run away).

3. Have the Erlking be super amused. Not in a malicious way, but in a vaguely impressed 'Wow. You guys have guts!' way. Have it laugh when they attempt to hurt it. Because that's funny.

4. As others note, have it tell the centaurs that it'll handle this, and have them say 'Yes, milord.' and back off.

5. If they utterly ignore all warning signs...have it kill them. If you're unwilling to kill PCs, you shouldn't ever put them in a situation where they might fight something like this. Or any difficult encounter at all.

Liberty's Edge

Grandlounge wrote:

I have an investigator with a keen rapier, gloves of marking, sickening strike. It gets going later than some of the other options, but at level 7 you get a crit around when hasted sicken first, then shaken, and give +2 attack and damage.

-4 to attacks -2 to damage -4 to all saves zero actions used.

You do give up crit damage though.

You can do the same better (without giving up crit damage) with Enforcer and a Merciful weapon (or another way to deal nonlethal).

That combo lets you basically do this to every creature you ever hit, for minimal resource investment.

Dirty Trick stuff is likely better for debiuffing, mind you, but this version does do full normal damage on top of its debuffs.

Liberty's Edge

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Huh? Lust isn't defeated. She's still asleep under Korvosa. The events you mention keep her from waking up, I believe, but defeat her? Not even a little.

Pride, Envy, and Wrath are likewise still asleep.

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
An Archaeologist Bard is literally a bard archetype that gives Bards rogue class features. Take Extra Performance and bam, combat ready Bard.

Lingering Performance is a better Feat for the Archaeologist than Extra Performance.

Liberty's Edge

Hunter. Even sans Animal Companion (with the Fey Trickster Archetype of Mesmerist, for example), it's got some very nice tricks.

This is particularly true as you can grab Fey Spell Lore and (in many ways more importantly) Fey Spell Versatility to get some of the good stuff from Mesmerist as well (Fey Spell Versatility can get you Mirror Image, for example, plus Good Hope), getting you a bit of the best of both worlds.

Liberty's Edge

There's the Ghul, which has DR/Good. Or the Manananggal which has DR/Good or Silver. Or Nightshades in general, which have DR/Good and Silver.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I could find with a quick search.

Liberty's Edge

0: Yeah, there are some combinations that are a bit more impressive than baseline stuff, but it's not too bad.

1: Sounds good.

2: Well, for monsters, just convert all that to CR (CR 1/3-1/2 for minions, CR=APL or APL-1 for lieutenants, CR=APL+2 or +3 for Big Bads with minions).

3: Sounds like you've got some ideas already. I'd personally start with organized crime, maybe dabble in Evil Cults, and maybe throw in a crazed spellcaster/supervillain or three.

Liberty's Edge

0: Gestalt probably doesn't add more than +1 APL or so. It's cool, but adds options more than raw combat power in most cases.

1: I'd go with level 3-5, no extra HP. With Gestalt, that should be more than enough to make them plausible as effective and well-known. You could give them the Renown Social Talent for free (or require its purchase), if combining this with the Gestalt suggestion.

2: Not really.

1st-2nd level non-Gestalt characters (especially of NPC Classes) make good minions to face for the starting characters stated above (and will go up in level), while PC Class characters of their level (or one above), with or without Gestalt, make decent lieutenants. Main villains 'requiring a team to defeat' are very difficult in Pathfinder, and you might be advised to have them as APL +2 or +3 CR enemies with a couple of lieutenant types (or a whole lot of minions they can buff, if they're a Bard or something) with them, for an APL +4 CR encounter or so.

3. Depends on what kind of themes you're interested in exploring. Comic Books are a very versatile genre and covers a really wide range of thematic ground.

Liberty's Edge

Standard Bards are quite good at combat.

If you want a greater focus, Dawnflower Dervish is a better option than Arcane Duelist in many ways, as is the Skald Class. Both are less good at general party buffing, but quite good at combat.

But really, it depends on what part of Bard you want. Is it the social skills, the party buffing, what?

Liberty's Edge

For Dragons, there's also the spell Scales of Deflection which only buys them one round, but does buy them that and is pretty neat.

Resist Energy also helps a lot, and can indeed make a Dragon basically immune to a particular Alchemist depending on the Dragon's color and the Alchemist's discoveries. It should also be on most Dragon's spell lists most of the time.

Liberty's Edge

*Khan* wrote:
So the 3 feats together grant immunity to mind effects for you and your party (within 30 ft.) when you get the bravery bonus up to +6 ? Correct?

No. Courage In A Bottle is very specific in granting fear immunity, it has no provision for granting immunity to mind effecting stuff.

It's even pretty debatable whether it even gives the party immunity to fear (I'd say likely not).

But it does give you personally immunity to fear and the whole party (within 30 ft.), including yourself, +6 on all saves vs. mind effecting stuff (and fear, for people who aren't you).

Liberty's Edge

RandomReverie wrote:
I don't have the highest opinion of Warrior Spirit. Standard action activation, far too few uses per day, and it shares limited slots with the other Advanced Weapon Trainings. It's been recommended to me from my old thread and I still say no. Plus I think you can only choose 1 weapon ability for it per use.(i think?)

True, but you get the rest in Enhancement bonus, and you don't need to wait until really high levels (and invest Arcana) to get things like Holy or Bane (both of which are doable real early with Warrior Spirit, and phenomenally good).

I think the two are around even. Especially with Gloves of Dueling (which you should have by 10th or so), which give two extra uses of Warrior Spirit, but if you don't like it, not taking it is certainly a valid option.

RandomReverie wrote:
Inspiring Bravery seems situational, it only applies to fear effects right?

By default, yeah. Which is why I recommend combining it with Improved Bravery to give everyone a bonus against all mind-effecting stuff. It's probably not worth it if you go the Armed Bravery route instead.

RandomReverie wrote:
I used a trait to get int to UMD, a human alt trait to get UMD as a class skill, and Skill Focus(UMD) so UMD shouldn't be a problem and actually makes me less MAD if I wanna invest into it.

Sure, all that works, Cha 13 is a prerequisite for all the Bravery stuff I recommended (except Courage In A Bottle), and would allow you to reassign some of those resources to other stuff.

RandomReverie wrote:
That courage in a bottle item sounds friggin awesome though!

Courage In A Bottle is an excellent Feat. :)

Liberty's Edge

LucyG92 wrote:
In regards to Command Undead - as it's a supernatural ability, does it not require any verbal/somatic components? If it failed, would the vampire realise what had happened?

Nope, no components needed. But yes, the vampire would realize what happened if she made the save.

Liberty's Edge

If all you want is Arcane Pool, the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training option (which can be found a ways down the page here), grants most of the advantages of that for one instance of Advanced Weapon Training (ie: one Feat at 5th level or so), freeing up a whole bunch of Feats, and some stat points. It's not quite as good in some ways (it's a Standard Action to do, for example), but it does let you grab Bane whenever you like right out of the box...

With that change, you do lose Armed Bravery at 5th, but you could drop Int to 14, get Cha 13, and have a few Feats free to pick up Improved Bravery and then Inspiring Bravery to add your Bravery bonus to your allies, which is solid, as choices go, and the Cha is a pretty good idea if dabbling in UMD (and allows for dabbling in other social skills, too...especially workable with Advanced Weapon Training). For a bit of added flavor with Mutation Warrior, you could also grab Courage In A Bottle, and devote yourself to Cayden Cailean and do some really cool stuff (fear immunity for you and +4 to +6 bonuses to all your allies saves vs. mind effecting stuff by 10th level with a Sash of the War Champion is very nice). Which seems very appropriate for a well rounded hero type.

Assuming you want to go that route, of course.

Another obvious option if wanting to go with 'dragon knight' and 'good all-around hero' is to go Bloodrager, possibly with the Draconic Bloodline. But that's a bit far off from your base concept.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
A divinity can end existence by snapping fingers.

Based on what definition?

don't be snippy were having fun here :P

Eh. It's a valid distinction. The actual, mythological, Norse Gods are actually only of a slightly higher power level as those in the Marvel Cinematic Universe in some ways. Heck, they need to eat magic apples to stay immortal or they age and die like everyone else.

The only real difference in many ways is that the mythological deities actually have access to, and control of, the afterlife, are more overtly magical/able to effect things at a distance, and more inclined to 'mythic' deeds (ie: creating worlds, being responsible for celestial bodies, etc.).

None of which is to deny their divinity, mind you. I'm a pretty serious Pagan in real life, and have even cast an occasional prayer Thor's way, but in most faiths featuring hard polytheism (ie: each God really being a discrete entity, not all just aspects of one or two deities), Gods are very much finite and certainly cannot 'end existence by snapping their fingers' and are not omnipresent. Both of those as prerequisites for divinity are pretty specific to monotheistic religions (or soft polytheism in some cases), not the actual way most pagan religions actually viewed (or view) the world.

Liberty's Edge

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Oh, agreed. But that's not a learned skill, or not one you learn at Kamar-Taj, anyway. Which is where I was going with that.

Liberty's Edge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
DMW: true. Although the exact amount of training was unclear, one could say he's been at it for a while... and his high speed of reading and reckless nighttime experiments probably made it possible faster than the other dudes who have probably been at it for a very long time (i.e. Mordo and Wong)

Yeah, they specifically mentioned he was a natural and learning really fast. And he still didn't demonstrate being more skilled than either Mordo or Wong...just more inventive and better armed.

I mean, the only things he did in the final fight that were more impressive than them were due to having an Infinity Stone, not his own abilities as a sorcerer. Well, and having good lateral thinking skills.

Liberty's Edge

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For the record, I also really like Jeffrey Mace. He's competent, usually pretty reasonable, and seems to have the best interests of everyone at heart.

He's certainly got several secrets, and seems a bit...insecure in regards to Coulson (splitting up the team being the big example), but that's understandable given that Coulson could've had his job. Almost anyone is gonna feel insecure in his situation.

I hope, and semi-expect, that he and Coulson will reach a detente before all this is over.

Liberty's Edge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I also was a big bugged by the immediate transition from student learning as fast as possible to fighting off the main bad guy and cult. I think having him fight some lesser mystical threat first as a training mission or something would have worked better showing his progression from zero to hero, not to mention allowed a bit more cool magic lore to slip into the MCU.

It's always better to learn when you're thrown on the pile! :)

Something that didn't really translate well, I think, was the amount of time that passed since his car accident: correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression he was in that monastery for months if not two years... (by the way his old girlfriend reacted when she next saw him...)

No. That bit followed logically. I mean, they broke up (with him being an ass) and then he emailed her regularly trying to apologize for the entire time he was studying. So it's not like they'd actually been out of contact.

One of his first question was whether she'd gotten all his e-mails, remember?

I've certainly not seen friends in years, but not fallen out of contact with them entirely, and thus known they were fine. It happens, and reunions are usually pretty drama-free.

Liberty's Edge

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If you want to make the power level clearly higher than standard Pathfinder and also make secret identities ubiquitous, you could go Gestalt with one of the Classes required to be Vigilante.

Given the Archetypes available, this allows a fair bit of variability in the PC group while really reinforcing the particular themes inherent in the Vigilante Class.

Liberty's Edge

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Excellent movie. Made me happy, especially the fact that, y'know, it's all actually magic, not some sort of cop-out. That was nice.

I feel like Dr. Strange's level of capability and authority is also appropriate. I mean, he's not Sorcerer Supreme yet, but he's clearly gifted and he saved the world and the New York Sanctum, so he gets to be its guardian. That follows logically to me, which made me happy.

Liberty's Edge

Just to be clear, while the above suggestions work, you're generally not supposed to get multiple Kinetic Blasts.

Instead, you get the ability to increase the damage significantly via metakinesis (empower) at 5th (paid for by gather power), and then composite blast at 11th (paid for by supercharge) on top of increased damage and bonuses from level and Elemental Overflow.

The damage winds up quite respectable, though not sky-high.

Liberty's Edge

What do you mean by a tank?

There's not really a mechanic in Pathfinder to make people attack you, after all. Do you just want a high-defense character or what? Because you're still gonna want to do high damage if you want people to actively target you.

And what flavor are you aiming for? For example, Paladins are wonderful at both taking and dealing damage, but have very specific flavor needs.

Liberty's Edge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

what Cevah said

edit: holy crap, these two feats together are amazing...

They can also be combined with Inspiring Bravery for better Save Bonuses to the whole party than a Paladin grants. Combined with a Sash of the War Champion, you can get to fear immunity (and huge bonuses for everyone else) by 10th level.

Liberty's Edge

You could, but it wouldn't help. It's a natural 1 and thus definitionally a miss no matter what you add to it.

Now, natural 1s are auto-failures only on attacks and saves, so you could absolutely add it in a meaningful way to a skill check or something, but it's just not gonna help on an attack or save that got a natural 1.

Liberty's Edge

spectrevk wrote:
Combat Trick, like all rogue talents, can only be taken once.

Absolutely! Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to your ability to do the following with your Slayer Talents:

2: Combat Trick
4: Ranger Combat Style
6: Ranger Combat Style
8: Weapon Training
10: Ranger Combat Style
12: Feat

You might not want to do this, but you can and that's super neat. Especially with the Human FCB option of getting 1/6 of an additional Slayer Talent.

As for wasted abilities, you probably aren't gonna get a lot of use out of Track, it's true, but what else is wasted? I'm pretty sure everything else is gonna come up.

Liberty's Edge

First, Slayers can take Combat Trick.

Indeed, with that and the Weapon Training Rogue Talent (which they can also get) they can get an extra Feat every other level all the way through 12th and, as a Human, still grab a couple of other Slayer Talents via FCB. That's enough extra Feats over the Rogue that they can easily afford to burn one on Accomplished Sneak Attacker. 3rd is probably a little early to do so, but it's definitely an option by 5th or so.

Second, yeah, at 1st-4th you're only using Studied Target occasionally. But at those levels, your d10 HD, greater Fort Save, and higher BAB matter quite a bit more, too. At 5th, Studied Target goes to +2 and is suddenly much more often worth the action, and at 7th it becomes a Swift Action.

As for your math...the problem there is assuming you'll hit and get Sneak Attack. Well, and assuming Slashing Grace works when TWF (it does not, barring an additional Feat in a book that isn't out yet anyway). And assuming a Slayer would use daggers instead of kukris (they wouldn't).

But back to assuming they hit. At 3rd, that's a reasonable assumption...but by 7th? Or 11th? Not so much any more, especially on iterative attacks (which they get earlier...a 7th level TWF Slayer probably has twice as many attacks as a 7th level TWF Rogue).

As for what you're missing about the Slayer...starting around 7th, they have a better attack bonus than a Fighter (Studied Target on all opponents forever and it's +1 more than Weapon Training), equivalent damage, and Sneak Attack (the Fighter eventually equals the attack bonus via Greater Weapon Focus, and does slightly more damage when not getting Sneak Attack, but only slightly), combined with vastly better skill and utility options at most levels.

Plus, as compared to Rogue, they have some very nice defensive advantages (two Good Saves and d10 HD).

As compared to Rangers, they have the aforementioned 'twice as many Feats for the first 12 levels' plus Sneak Attack and the fact that Studied Target works on everything (and provides hefty skill bonuses). They probably fall a little behind mechanically at 10th or so when the Ranger gets Instant Enemy, but they really keep up pretty well.

Liberty's Edge

spectrevk wrote:
A dex-based Slayer won't be able to lean on Power Attack and a larger weapon die, though. Wouldn't it end up with less damage than the Core Rogue, just based on how much worse the sneak attack progression is on a Slayer, and the relatively low damage from Studied Target? Certainly, the Slayer would have better odds of hitting, but the Rogue would hit harder, and surely by late-game one can easily set up flanks/flat-footed attacks using Invisibility/Greater Invis, Darkness, and other spells?

Eh. The Rogue doesn't hit much harder until real late in the game, and by then the to-hit advantage on the Slayer is enormous. And if using high-crit weapons, the Slayer does even better (since his Studied Target damage doubles on a crit while Sneak Attack doesn't).

A Slayer can grab Accomplished Sneak Attacker and have 2d6 Sneak Attack at 3rd, 3d6 at 6th, 4d6 at 9th, 5d6 at 12th, and 6d6 at 15th.

The Rogue is never more than 2d6 ahead. Ever. And the Slayer has Studied Target and Full BAB.

At 3rd, the Sneak Attacks are actually equal, so the Slayer is just + to hit ahead (or +2 to hit, +1 damage with Studied Target).

At 7th, the Rogue is 1d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +4 to hit, +2 damage (so he trades -1.5 damage for +4 to hit), and has an extra attack.

At 11th, the Rogue is 2d6 ahead in Sneak Attack, but the Slayer is +6 to-hit and +3 damage ahead (so he trades -4 damage for +6 to hit), and he has another attack again.

At 15th the Rogue is still 2d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +7 to hit and +4 damage (meaning he traded -3 damage for +7 to-hit).

Liberty's Edge

spectrevk wrote:

Perhaps it would help if I explained precisely why two-handed weapons and medium armor would be useless in the campaign:

We're supposed to be sneaking into an extremely hostile, paranoid Galt. My goal is to look like a common Galtian, so armor that can be concealed under clothing would be best, as would weapons that can be hidden from view. Heavy Armor in a country of starving, paranoid peasants who can turn into a ravening mob at a moment's notice is just asking for trouble.

Also, building for 2h increases MAD for the build anyway, since DEX and INT are already heavily weighted for anyone going for Death Attack/Assassinate.

A Dex-based Slayer is still better than a Core Rogue/Assassin in almost every way, and avoids these problems. Indeed, Dex-based Slayers are solid in general.

Liberty's Edge

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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Ugh, classes are not characters. That's an awful form of metagaming. Character concepts can be built mechanically however works best. Do some classes have a typical flavor, sure, but that doesn't mean that's a great thing. It's nice to have some fluff explanation for new powers, but why try to impose your view of what a class should look like beyond how a player flavors the character.

For the record, I actually mostly agree with this. The actual baked-in flavor of most classes is really light. Some examples:

Wizard: You have studied magic, from books.
Sorcerer: Somewhere in your bloodline is something magical.
Fighter: You've learned how to fight.
Investigator: You're good at figuring things out, probably with some formal education.

And so on. The flavor that's actually built in needs to be acknowledged, IMO, but for non-spellcasting classes it's verging on nonexistent, and even for casters it's only really meaningful in what kind of magic you've got and how you acquired it.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I'd probably agree with the above, going straight Slayer, skipping Assassin entirely.

Liberty's Edge

I'd skip the Fighter level. If you're going with a God with a good Favored Weapon, all you're getting is Heavy Armor and one Feat. OThat's a pretty meh reason to delay spellcasting, Judgment, Bane, and so on all one level each.

I mean, you can grab Heavy Armor Proficiency as your 1st level Feat and have AC 20 at 2nd level. Your attack will be +3 for 2d6+4, which isn't bad. By 3rd, and with a +1 weapon, that goes to +5 for 2d6+8, which is pretty solid, really.

Both those are without Judgment (or Studied Target, if going Sanctified Slayer). By 3rd, the version with a Fighter level would be at maybe +1 more to hit than that (if he grabbed Weapon Focus)...and couldn't use Judgment/Studied Target to increase it.

In short, the Fighter version has +1 to hit at 1st, maybe +2 if going with Weapon Focus, but drops to only +0 or +1 by 2nd level, and stays that way until 5th level, when the pure Inquisitor gets Bane.

Liberty's Edge

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Hwanngott and Holomog are both nice places to live (even if you're male, Holomog's sexism is pretty much limited to 'you don't get to rule a city or anything bigger')...but not in the Inner Sea. Other places outside the Inner Sea lack sufficient detail to guess much of what's going on there.

Around the Inner Sea, Andoran is probably nicest. They're a republic, which is nice, and pretty safe for the common man, with a good degree of freedom as well. There are certainly problems, but not anywhere near as much as many other places.

Some places in Varisia are also pretty nice (Sandpoint, for example) but they're a lot less safe, and Taldor and Qadira are a lot less free. Absalom is nice enough in some ways, but has some serious problems if you're poor.

Liberty's Edge

Well, his Antipaladins (ie: the worst of his worshipers) are forbidden the use of poison, so that's probably right out for all worshipers.

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