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Deadmanwalking's page

RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 9,753 posts (9,953 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 3 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

Wow. That's f#@!ed up and unacceptable. Those officers should be disciplined, fired, and possibly arrested. I mean, damn.

Realistically, they're not gonna get arrested, but something should certainly happen to them.

bugleyman wrote:
The thing about this that most sticks in my craw is that the law-and-order, she-had-it-coming types are the very same people who scream about how everything the government does is tyranny. Can you say cognitive dissonance?

In fairness, this isn't universal. I know that most people I know personally (myself included) who complain about tyrannical government policies would use this as an example of such policies rather than defending it.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The real problem is cops using force at all. Police should be trained first in foremost in deescalation, and in most countries, they are.

I dunno about 'first and foremost'. Cops do also deal with situations where deescalation isn't possible, after all, and need to be prepared for those as well. Still, they should definitely receive more training in deescalation than they do. The increasing militarization of the US police force is a real problem that's been ongoing for some time now.

Liberty's Edge

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
So you're saying that helping one race at the exclusion of other races is racist/evil.

The NAACP might like a word with you on this...

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Am I mistaken about how Golarian gods work? I thought that the majority of Elven or Dwarven gods weren't interested in (ie excluded) non-Elven or non-Dwarven clergy?

You're mostly mistaken. There are a few Elven Gods who feel this way, but they're the only ones. Aroden accepted non-human clergy pretty readily, for example. As do the Dwarven Gods in regards to non-Dwarven faithful.

Liberty's Edge

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Sure, I get the urge. Unfortunately, IMO, class and even race creation are more art than science and thus really hard to codify effectively.

Liberty's Edge

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Theliah Strongarm wrote:
you sure? i've had no qualms with it

Here are two versions of the stats for a Gnoll race:

+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha

Which do you think is more expensive? Hint: It's the first one. The objectively worse one, which is 9 RP to the 5 RP of the second one.

And it's not like that's just theorycrafting. A gnoll was literally the first thing I tried to make in that system.

Another example, is that humans can trade being a 9 RP race for being a 2 RP race with the 'Dual Talent' alternate racial trait...and that's a good Alternate Racial Trait that people actually like and take.

And really, those are just an example of the endemic problem with the system, which is that the prices and the value of the things they buy are not equivalent. Or even close to equivalent.

Liberty's Edge

Theliah Strongarm wrote:
Firewarrior44 wrote:
The Advanced Class guide had guidelines for building classes.
But not concrete guidelines like the Advanced Race Guide has. There's no way of telling if a class is OP or not.

The Advanced Race guidelines are terrible, though. So this may be for the best.

Liberty's Edge

Cenorin wrote:
Azten wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
You're running a rebel insurgency campaign, and every player approaches you outside of the game and tells you they want to secretly play a double agent working for the big evil empire.
I'd love to watch this blow up in their faces as, since they do not know the others work for the same empire they do, they sabatoge all the plans to backstab and inadvertently win the war for the rebellion!
Actually, this could be really cool if the different PCs were working for different nobles and officials within the government, none of whom know what the others are planning, and the campaign suddenly becomes not about the now-comically-inept rebels who've failed to catch six different spies infiltrating their ranks, and about which of the various evil lords is going to be able to use the threat of rebellion to increase his standing or even take over the empire. Kind of shoots the GMs plans to hell, but if he or she is willing to roll with it...

Or, alternately, the extremely competent rebels have discovered who the spies are and quarantined all of them in a single cell in order to better pass on disinformation to the enemy while never giving them a real chance of learning anything damaging.

Obviously, you have these as layered secrets for the PCs to discover in order. :)

Liberty's Edge

Wow. That's some serious thread necromancy, there. I mean, I've seen older threads raised, but seldom one so large...

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, I'd assume creatures that powerful have done the Wish-equivalent stuff. A Headband for +6 and an Int of 43 is still a valid addition, though.

Liberty's Edge

HyperMissingno wrote:
Barbarians are more deadly than paladins under normal circumstances, but paladins get to be more deadly 1 to 7 times per day depending on the level. Paladins are harder to take out of a fight though if you can't ORKO them and they have an extra feat compared to barbarians who need raging vitality if they don't wanna risk exploding at 0 HP.

Oath of Vengeance makes it potentially much more often than that and Barbarians are limited by Rage rounds too.

Really, the big difference is target selection. Paladins do more damage against small numbers of evil creatures (even powerful ones), Barbarians do more damage against everything else.

Liberty's Edge

Haldelar Baxter wrote:
Has it been further broken down to how many casters would be capable of item crafting of certain items, for example just for craft rod it's caster level 9 and craft staff level 11,but not ever spell caster is going to take item creation feats.

No. One Item Crafter's work could easily sustain several small towns, so figuring how common such people are is tricky.

Spellcasting Services and their availability are what I used to determine these numbers. After all, if 8th level spells are available, so must be a 15th or 16th level person to cast them.

Liberty's Edge

bitter lily wrote:
I don't understand "Each number is a subset of the one above it," but your example is clear. You just calculate all the lines and add them. Except that 1st-2nd is the result of calculating 1 in 20 and then subtracting the sum of the others.

That's not quite right, each number is subtracted from the one above it. So, 800 people would have 3 7th-8th level people and 7 5th-6th level people rather than the 10 5th-6th level people dividing 800 by 80 would result in.

So a good way to do it is start with the number of 1st and 2nd level people (40 for an 800 person group) then subtract each number in turn:

40-20 (the # of 3rd-4th)=20
20-10 (the # of 5th-6th)=10
10-3 (the # of 7th-8th)=7

So that means a group of 800 would have:

20 1st-2nd level characters
10 3rd-4th level characters
7 5th-6th level characters
3 7th-8th level characters

See how that works?

bitter lily wrote:
The only thing I don't like is that so few in your example end up being 1st-2nd level. You'd think that there'd be a lot of low achievers, just like there were in Sandpoint. What happened?

That's a weird artifact of the small size of that example. Look at the 800 person sample above for something more typical.

At 1,260, to provide another, different, example, there's the following:

32 1st-2nd level characters
16 3rd-4th level characters
10 5th-6th level characters
4 7th-8th level characters
1 9th-10th level character

bitter lily wrote:
Deadman, are you going to adjust your numbers to reflect the idea that, in fact, it is not the case that "half of 6th level or less spellcasters are Adepts"?

Not really, no.

Firstly, because while James Jacobs is the Creative Director, he's not omnipotent and quite a few Adepts of low levels are actually around in Paizo books, and more could easily be around unnamed.

And secondly, and more importantly, because my numbers seem to work as-is to reflect most places actually statted out. Which was the goal.

Liberty's Edge

Hubbaman wrote:
Ahh, darn. I will move the Kinetic Whip to level 9 infusion, use the FCB at level 10 to take Eruption. Take Kinetic form at level 14, instead of Flame Shield and take that at level 16 with the next FCB. Grappling will then be moved to level 19, so then I know what to take at that level :)

Sounds workable.

Hubbaman wrote:
I will be using a lot physical blasts (water, steam, ice), so DEX is important (and as I'm now level 5, it is to late to change ability scores).

Yeah, but that's eventually (I got the impression you went with the Cold Blast at 1st, which means you won't be doing any of that until 7th, and not doing it regularly...ever, actually, given how Burn and Kinetic Blade interact), and a 16 isn't exactly a low score to start with. By the time you're 7th, you should be getting a +2 from Elemental Overflow and have +2 from a Belt if you want, and you get various other bonuses as you go up in level, too.

If you started with Water instead, my advice would've been slightly different (going Dex 18, Con 16)...but it's a little irrelevant since you can't change stat distribution at this point.

Hubbaman wrote:
Will save is my biggest problem. Considering Iron will, but not sure where to add it. I do have Carefully hidden and +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effect from half-elf, but still a bit low. It would have been wise to dump STR even further to get better WIS.

Too bad. Still, something to keep in mind for the future.

Hubbaman wrote:
I regret taking Combat Reflexes at level 5 now :( Should have switched that with Spell penetration on level 9.

Retrain maybe? It's only 250 gp and five days to retrain a Feat at this level if your GM is using the retraining rules. That's probably worth it.

Liberty's Edge

Kinetic Blade and Kinetic Form are both invalid choices for your FCB at the levels you select them.

The FCB grants the 'Extra Wild Talent' Feat, which is restricted to effects two levels lower than the max you can normally get. So...level 1 effects at 6th level, and level 4 effects at 12th level.

In terms of damage per level, Kineticists do fine, especially melee builds. Check out this guide for a good measure of a character's general viability, which I'm pretty sure you'll do fine on...mostly. Will Saves might be an issue.

Wjhich brings me to advice: The big thing I'd advise on the character as presented is dropping Dex to 16, and using those points to raise Wisdom. You're attacking vs. touch AC, making the Dex higher than it really needs to be, and the big Kineticist weakness is in Will Saves (aka 'The Worst Save To Fail'). You're way better getting +3 to Will Saves (from going to Wis 14) than +1 each on attack and AC. Taking the +2 Will Save option for Half Elf is also recommended, but not sufficient on its own.

Frankly, I'd also drop Str for Int a bit. Skill Points are nice to have and Str becomes rapidly useless on a Kineticist. I'd probably go with something more like this:

Str 7 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 11 Wis 14 Cha 7

If you don't drop Dex (though you should) you could still drop Str to 7 for Wis 11, which is a pretty solid life choice (though not as good as Wis 14).

Liberty's Edge

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Tacticslion wrote:
How do we know that Asmodeus isn't all that and such a super-genius that he just tricked all of Celestia early on? Simple: a non-demon lord demon overpowered him and stole his stuff, after Big A had carved his own symbol on said demon's forehead and placed said demon under his power. Said demon rose to demonlord for the chutzpah. (That was Baphomet, by the way. He's not a particularly impressive demon lord, as far as demon lords go. He's actually kind of weak, though he's not terrible in every way.)

I agree with the rest (mostly anyway), but this bit isn't true, or is at least highly misleading. Baphomet is a pretty impressive guy, even for a Demon Lord. He's not the highest CR or best in combat, but he is the smartest Demon Lord currently statted (which is how he put one over on Asmodeus). Talking about him as 'not particularly impressive' is incorrect. He's the single most impressive Demon the area he beat Asmodeus at.

Liberty's Edge

That should all work fine. Wooden Fist has limited uses, but that's the only real limitation on that combo.

Honestly, I dunno if, what, 5 rounds a day of +5 damage is worth the lost Feats from VMC.

Liberty's Edge

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Okay, thanks for the heads-up. Reopening time probably increased to 6 years instead of 6 months.

That's a bare minimum. And required a level 20 character with Mythic Tiers to pull off. And assumes that the PCs (and the likely intervention of a deity) sealing it doesn't prevent that (an unwarranted assumption in many ways).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
If you're a smart Demon Lord, you recruit some other Demon Lord to be the one who rules the New Worldwound and gets the axe. You just have to find one who thinks they're taking advantage of your hard work to gain immense power for themselves.

This goes back to the 'Demon Lords aren't suicidal' thing.

First, there's better than even odds that Baphomet (who did exactly this with Deskarii in many ways) also died at the hands of the PCs...while within his home realm. So...doing things this way still looks likely to get you dead.

Second, there probably aren't any Demon Lords stupid enough to fall for that. It's a pretty obvious con.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
This also works for a Devil who wants to plant a false flag attack to divert attention away from Cheliax, which is in some ways really an Infernal Worldwound. Things like the Glorious Reclamation, even if defeated by the PCs of Hell's Vengeance, have got to make the Devils nervous. Better to trick the Chaotic Evil cultists into restarting trouble somewhere a safe distance away to force a would-be New Glorious Reclamation to go back to the Mendevian Crusades (or Crusades named after whatever other bastion of Good the New Worldwound is close to). Not under any circumstances. Devils actively support the closing of the Worldwound. That thing's bad for everyone. You gotta bear in mind that Asmodeus's evil is all wrapped up in his devotion to perfect law (under his authority). He hates and reviles Demons vastly more than he does someone like Iomedae (who he's perfectly happy to work with).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
From the point of view of the rest of Demonkind, if they got to wreak several decades of havoc in return for 6 years of work that most of them didn't even have to do themselves, they definitely got their money's worth, so a New Worldwound looks like an attractive prospect, as long as they make sure that somebody else gets killed by the WotR PCs.

Eh. In addition to the 'Demon Lords aren't suicidal' thing, this assumes several things:

First, it assumes the Demons consider the Worldwound a win, even after having lost it. Which isn't true, havoc was secondary and all the primary goals failed in the long run.

Second, it assumes deity level creatures are super focused on Golarion specifically. And lack basic tactical awareness. Both unwarranted assumptions. If you have a choice between opening such a thing on a planet where there are a group of unkillable badasses specifically geared to stop you and one where there aren't...why go with option A?

Really, opening another Worldwound is just idiotic. And Demons aren't stupid.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
The above possibilities are not mutually exclusive, and due to lack of coordination, might even result in **2** New Worldwounds opening, or at least attempting to open. That could explain where the WotR Heroes go -- even if another Worldwound doesn't actually succeed in opening, they have to spend the rest of their existence playing Whack-A-Mole against New Worldwounds. At some point they might want to recruit some new PCs to fix Golarion's underlying metaphysical alignment problem that came about with the death of Aroden, lest the non-Chaotic non-Evil deities come to the conclusion a few thousand years hence that the only way to sanitize the metaphysical environment is to remove Golarion from known reality altogether and replace it with a mysterious habitable artifact . . . .

There's no evidence this is either true or the likely result of the PCs actions in WotR, and a lot it isn't.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Okay, I'll give you that.

There's a reason for that. And it's that making what PCs accomplished meaningless is a terrible idea and kind of a dick move.

Plus all the logical reasons noted above, of course.

Liberty's Edge

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Inquisitor is an excellent possibility, being good at both demon hunting and anti-magic stuff. And just generally a really good Class. The Spellbreaker Archetype is particularly appropriate.

Other possibilities include a Tetori Monk (grappling messes spellcasters up), a Barbarian (Superstition + Spell Sunder) or a Witch Killer Slayer.

The last only works vs. arcane magic, but it's Rogue-like and tailor-made thematically.

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I knew Mythic was broken, but is it so broken that Mythic Ranks beyond 2 keep you on top even if you get Zerged by an overwhelming number of non-Mythic characters?

Mythic Ranks are worth a CR a piece, or so. How many 10th level characters are needed to 'Zerg Rush' a 20th level one?

Oh, and at Tier 10, you literally can't be killed except by artifact weapons. So there's that.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I thought the world was supposed to do that . . . at least that's what this one does . . . .

No it doesn't. New and different problems crop up, but old ones have absolutely been solved a lot of times in history.

Also, equally importantly, it's deeply dramatically unsatisfying and makes the players feel bad and frustrated in many cases.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

The Worldwound opened in part because Golarion shifted slightly with the death of Aroden, and it looks like Areelu Vorlesh(*) just took advantage of this to finish the work needed to open it. So if the PCs undo the ritual and close the Worldwound, the underlying problem is still not solved, and could soon find outlet again (possibly in the same place, or possibly somewhere else, come to think of it . . .).

(*)According to the entry, which comes from The Worldwound sourcebook (and you wouldn't want to render it obsolete only 3 years after its release, would you?), she is Witch 10/Demoniac 10/Archmage 8, so here's another high Mythic for you to worry about if she gets away from the PCs in Wrath of the Righteous.

That's...not exactly what happened, as Benjamin Madrano notes. Additionally, that actively required Deskarii on the other side to help with the process. Y'know, the Demon Lord the PCs almost certainly kill for good?

How many other Demon Lords do you think are gonna want to follow in that guy's footsteps when the people who killed him are still around to do an encore? People with a death wish rarely become Demon Lords.

Plus, on a meta-level, the 'Continuing The Campaign' section never even mentions that possibility. Which is a strong indication it's not an intended outcome.

Liberty's Edge

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HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.

Eh. I'm skeptical of this logic. Characters like that aren't deities and don't operate by the same rules at all, allowing them to act relatively free of such restrictions. Heck, Baba Yaga has explicitly remained a non-deity partially specifically for that reason.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, hereditary monarchy isn't uncommon, exactly, but it's by no means inevitable in the setting, and its forms differ drastically from place to place even where it is practiced.

Really, asking for a generic answer to this is like asking for a generic answer to 'What do governments look like?' in the real world right now. It varies vastly by region.

Liberty's Edge

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
Don't most APs end with the PCs somewhere around 15th level? I know a few go all the way to 20, but thought most stopped short of that.

More like 16th or 17th for a lot of 'em, but yeah, none go to 20.

Except WotR, which goes to Level 20 and Mythic Tier 10.

Liberty's Edge

Gulthor wrote:
There's also Tar-Baphon, the freaking Whispering Tyrant himself, who is a Necromancer 20/Archmage 10 - and there's a reason why a group of level 20 adventurers with freaking artifacts were only able to imprison him. Yeah, 20/mythic 10 is the real deal (which is why none of our WotR characters stuck around on Golarion.

Actually...he isn't quite what you say. Specifically, Tar-Baphon is a Mythic Lich, rather than having a PC-style Mythic Path.

And he's a 'mere' CR 26, which isn't really a huge challenge for a group of PCs of that level. Not by himself anyway.

Baba-Yaga is 4 CR higher than him, and I'm betting Geb is at least 2 (and has Arazni for backup). Tar-Baphon is a scary guy (as you note). He's not nearly as scary as either of those two.

Liberty's Edge

Varzeal wrote:

I forgot about that talent somehow.

She's okay with spells as long as it's kept simple.

Then I'd definitely go Archaeologist if she's in the mood for something Rogue-ish.

Varzeal wrote:
I think she would love archaeologist bard but I don't know how best I could support that.

Something in a solid archer or a melee Cleric flanking buddy would both be good calls. Nobody ever minds a Cleric backing them up.

Liberty's Edge

Dasrak wrote:
Transmutation as an opposition school is strongly discouraged. Transmutation has far more spells than any other school in the game, and the spells it does have tend to be extremely diverse and above the curve in terms of power. Conjuration and Transmutation are significantly better than every other school of magic, by a significant margin. I'd much rather oppose four schools that take either Transmutation or Conjuration as an opposition school.

Right! This. I meant to mention it but got distracted and apparently failed to.

Transmutation is probably the worst opposition school a Wizard can take (Conjuration being a close second). Divination, Necromancy, Evocation...all would be miles better Opposition picks.

Dasrak wrote:
There's the Trapfinding trait, if your GM allows it. Not sure what sourcebooks he's permitting.

This Trait is specific to another AP, and thus really unlikely to be allowed, IMO.

Liberty's Edge

Varzeal wrote:
Slayer looks much more survivable but loses trap stuff / disable device. As a Scarab Sage she's more interested in exploring and preserving ruins and has a personal preference for social skills.

They can get the 'Trapfinder' Slayer Talent at 2nd level and get Disable Device as a Class Skill and Trapfinding. It's neat.

Varzeal wrote:
The rogue and bard combo has potential, though as a archaeologist bard she could cover both of those.

Totally. And Archaeologist is a great choice both ,mechanically and thematically...though it has spells, and I thought avoiding those was a goal here?

If you're willing to do spells, having her play some sort of Bard is almost certainly the way to go. Bards are amazing.

Liberty's Edge

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Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
Orodhen wrote:

Here is the trait:

Blind Zeal (Vildeis): You are blind but trained by followers of Vildeis to sense your surroundings by sound and touch. You need not attempt a skill check to move at full speed. You take a –4 penalty from blindness on only Acrobatics, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks. You gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. You lose the benefits of this trait whenever you can see, but regain them if you
once again become blind.

Really? That's a trait? I mean, granted Vildeis isn't ever going to be a popular god to follow in Pathfinder, but that trait still not only outright gives you a feat, but also adds additional benefits that are arguably worth a feat themselves.

Well yeah. It also makes you permanently blind, though. So...that's not an unalloyed advantage.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah...if you don't want to deal with low skill points, you can just play an Inquisitor (which are great, and work great). But it and Warpriest do not synergize well, so dipping one with the other is a bad call. Just pick one and go with it.

Liberty's Edge

While I haven't played the whole of RotRL, I have played and run other APs and played part of the first book of RotRL (twice).

So, that in mind:

Those choices look workable. Lack of Haste will hurt that many weapon users quite a bit in the mid-levels, though. Still, no good way to avoid that.

1. That's...not exactly accurate. You need access to occasional high level Divine/Arcane spells, a skill monkey, and melee frontliners. But who has which of those capabilities isn't actually super relevant, and you can probably fudge some stuff with scrolls and other consumables.

2. Yeah...not having any social skills at the very least seems likely to make things less fun. That said, there are indeed ways to make Diplomacy not Charisma based. The two most relevant are the Student of Diplomacy and Clever Wordplay Traits, which make it Int-based, or the Conversion Inquisition, which would replace your Inquisitor's Domain, but makes all social skills (except Perform) Wis-based and is available to any deity. I'd probably do the latter, assuming the Inquisitor is willing to go along with it.

3. It's not too bad, at least early on. Spotting them should be mostly sufficient.

Bonus: While maintaining Full BAB? There's Urban Ranger. There's also the spell Aram Zey's Focus, but it's 2nd level (for Bards, Alchemists, and Wizards) and has a range of 'Personal' probably not while maintaining full BAB.

Personally, I'd either go Slayer, which works fine and is a very neat class in its own right, or go Alchemist (Vivisectionist) and grab the aforementioned spell. That'll delay trapfinding (unless you also grab Trapbreaker), but dabbling in being a 'caster' has a lot of perks.

Liberty's Edge

For someone who really enjoyed Fighter and Bloodrager previously, I might suggest going Slayer for your wife's character rather than Unchained Rogue.

They're more durable and straightforward...and actually better at social skills, too, if you grab a Trait for Diplomacy as a Class Skill, anyway (or burn a Feat on Cosmopolitan to grab that and UMD).

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Whoops, I thought yaga was only tier 5.

Ah. That makes sense then.

But like I said, I picked my examples of someone able to stand up to the PCs really carefully. There's a reason I only had two people on the list...

Liberty's Edge

I actually agree completely. That said, if some aspect of the low stat is compensated for completely, I think you need to justify that, too.

I mean, the above listed character uses Int for almost all social stuff, and thus might easily have the same Diplomacy as a high Charisma Bard or the like, and that should be represented as well.

For example, my current PC, a Half-Orc Investigator (Empiricist) with Student of Philosophy, Int 16, and Cha 7 is extremely eloquent and charming most of the time, to reflect the fact that, mechjanically, he's tied with the Bard for 'most persuasive PC'.

He's also seriously nerdy, kinda funny looking (he's tall and skinny with arms too long for his body, making him look weird, especially with all the tattoos), and prone to lapses in social skill when drunk or otherwise impaired. To represent the Charisma of 7.

Another character I played once was an Inquisitor with Conversion Inquisition and Cha 7. He, too, was extremely friendly and persuasive. Actually, he was ridiculously smooth and had a lovely, melifluous, voice. Also he had horrible burn scars over something like a third of his body. Which explains the Charisma 7.

In both cases, the character overcomes their disadvantage in some way, but it still very much exists. And that's how I feel stat substitutions should generally look. They represent the character successfully not allowing a problem to greatly impact their life...but don't negate the fact that there is such a problem.

Liberty's Edge

Atarlost wrote:
I've met people who are both strong and clever too. It doesn't mean strength and intelligence are the same stat.

That's not quite the same thing. Both the charm and intimidation come from the same thing, a certain force of personality that some people possess. Everyone I've met who has it can easily do both those things. They're just...compelling. I've met far fewer people who were really good at one of those things and really bad at the other (well, barring really big people being intimidating...but see below) than I have those who were at least decent at both.

Atarlost wrote:
In a system where the most effete minstrel is more naturally intimidating than an orc barbarian something is seriously wrong.

Sure, but the problem there is with the Orc, not the Minstrel. Really, Str should be able to be used for Intimidation even sans Feat.

Atarlost wrote:
You don't get to pass it off "because dragons" unless you also admit that the stat involved is pure magical b@$$$**% just like dragon biology and aerodynamic.

You're accusing me of something I didn't do, here.

Liberty's Edge

Atarlost wrote:
Charisma is not a mental stat, it's a magical stat. Charismatic people unconsciously use mild charm and compulsion effects to influence people. Otherwise the same stat wouldn't influence both diplomacy and intimidate. It should have no roleplaying impact at all.

Have you not met people with real force of personality in real life? I have, and trust me, they can easily use that to either charm or intimidate quite readily.

Now, a lot of people aren't equally good at both, it's true, but you can pretty readily explain that with skill ranks.

That's not to say any of the stats really map to real-world stuff all that accurately, but the idea that force of personality governs both charm and how intimidating you can be? Not unrealistic at all.

Liberty's Edge

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One level of MoMS Monk Followed by Vigilante seems like the most fun, especially if you can start at 2nd and have things really going from the get-go. But maybe that's just me wanting to make Daredevil...

This doesn't allow Darkness shenanigans of course (well, absent one of the Archetypes that gets spellcasting). If you want to do that, almost any spellcaster works, though with the Vildeis thing, I'd probably go Inquisitor. That works nicely thematically.

Liberty's Edge

Val'bryn2 wrote:
I don't know, Monk often convinces people of things, pretty much every episode. He has a low charisma, yes, and low diplomacy ranks, but it's fairly easy to see him adding Int to Diplomacy roles. He's not liked, but he IS respected.

I'd be more inclined to say he has maxed ranks in Diplomacy, but doesn't add Int. At, say, 4th level as an Investigator with Cha 7, that'd give him a +5 modifier (+10 or more to gather information if an Empiricist), which seems right-ish.

Liberty's Edge

My 7th level Half Orc Empiricist Investigator in Mummy's Mask has killed...a lot of stuff really. Too much to keep track of which things he struck the death blow on specifically. Maybe 10 or so? Maybe more like 20? I must admit I really don't keep track.

Most of the things he's killed have been undead or Evil Outsiders, though, and he's only killed someone in cold blood twice (taking one guy to the authorities was circumstantially nearly impossible, plus he was a cult member who'd just tried to kill us, and the other was a temporarily unconscious invisible stalker who'd just tried to murder my character's cousin), generally preferring to turn people over to the proper authorities if possible.

He is a nice person...PCs (at least weapon users) just wind up with really high death tolls (by most standards) in the course of doing business.

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A lot of these are good advice for someone with low Charisma, but terrible for someone who has that combined with the ability to use Int for social skills.

Look at Monk, for example. You could easily make him as an Empiricist Investigator with dumped Charisma...but you wouldn't give him Student of Philosophy in a million years.

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ZZTRaider wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Given that 5 of her CR is 10 Mythic Tiers of Archmage, yeah it is. If calculating 1 Tier as +1 CR she's CR 35. A CR 35 prepared caster, specifically.

Sure, but the last five tiers of mythic are significantly more powerful than the first five
Baba Yaga is a Female venerable advanced human witch 20/archmage 10. So she's got those last 5 tiers.

This. She is, in fact, exactly the kind of character a PC might be at level 20/tier 10 plus an extra +5 CR of ridiculousness.

Any 'Tiers are worth more than 1 CR per 2 Tiers' is countered by the fact that, however you calculate them, she has exactly the same as maxed-out PCs do and +5 CR on top of that.

412294 wrote:
All this means is that instead of explaining away 51 people we now need to explain away 10,051.

Nah, the world already explains what high level people do pretty thoroughly. My point is that there are enough of them that 51 extra isn't a huge deal.

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Kurald Galain wrote:
Numerous classes offer a familiar, including wizard, witch, bloodrager (by dumping your L1 bloodline power), and certain archetypes of sorcerer and arcanist. A familiar effectively gives you Alertness as a bonus feat, plus your choice of Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, or Skill Focus.

Most of those are actually better than the Feat because they stack with it. The skill boosts are worse than Skill Focus, though, since they don't double at 10 ranks.

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Depends on what you mean by 'meet' to some degree. I can think of two off-hand where their presence is felt in a big way (not just normal 'Cleric spells coming from them') but you don't exactly have conversations with them.

That's on top of those where you get to have a conversation, of course.

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Cavalier (Gendarme) replaces Teamwork Feats with bonus Feats from a list (which includes Power Attack). So that's also an option, especially for a 1 level dip.

Several other Classes have a specific Bonus Feat or three at specific levels. Dawnflower Dervish gives Dervish Dance with a one level dip and no need for Weapon Finesse, for example. And Vigilante can give one of a wide variety of Bonus Feats plus extra awesomeness with a two level dip.

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bitter lily wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Which is the reason for this whole thread in the first place in a nutshell: I wanted to understand and define for myself where in that spectrum Golarion fit, and used the numbers to help.

I fully understand your objective, and appreciate it. I'm running Jade Regent right now. My PCs are traveling in a caravan through northwestern Varisia--and I want them to have memories of the landscapes & towns they pass through. Unfortunately, I have to detail for myself the villages & bigger towns on the route. And I want my material to feel consistent with the stuff I run from the AP.

All of which is to say: I love your efforts, but I lost the results in the midst of the thread. The modified ones, I mean. Can you please repeat the statistics you eventually decided on?

Sure! The version I eventually settled on is the following:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Anyway, using my revised numbers, and assuming NPCs almost never exceed 6th level, but half of 6th level or less spellcasters are Adepts I've got roughly how many PC Class characters there are at a given level. Each number is a subset of the one above it (so in a town of 260, you have 13 PC class characters, 1 at 7th-8th level, 3 at 5th-6th level, 6 at 3rd-4th level and 3 at 1st-2nd level).

1 in 20 people is of a PC class
1 in 40 is at least 3rd-4th level in a PC class
1 in 80 is at least 5th-6th level in a PC class
1 in 250 or so is at least 7th-8th level in a PC class
1 in 1,250 or so is at least 9th-10th level in a PC class
1 in 7,500 or so is at least 11th-12th level in a PC class
1 in 22,500 or so is at least 13th-14th level in a PC class
1 in 45,000 or so is at least 15th-16th level in a PC class

And thanks so much for the kind words. :)

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Using your numbers from the above link, shouldn't around 1 in 135,000 be level 17 - 18, and around 1 in 405,000 be level 19 - 20?

For the record, those numbers are intentionally ballpark, and are based on the Settlement Guidelines, which explicitly never have a city be inherently big enough to have 9th level casting (it needs something special about it to have that) which is why I never calculated that.

But since they're intentionally ballpark figures, sure, let's go with yours. :)

UnArcaneElection wrote:
In a world of a billion people, that gives you around 2,469 people of level 19 - 20. Nothing to extrapolate from about Mythic Ranks -- still, it would seem that while a party of level 20 MR 10 adventurers would be significant, it wouldn't be world shattering, even if they did succeed in cleaning up a major problem in the world.

Mythic characters are pretty clearly way rarer than high level ones. Like an order of magnitude rarer if we're talking anywhere near Mythic Tier 10. As mentioned, based on canon NPCs, there are maybe 10 in the whole Inner Sea (and I'm actually only thinking of maybe six). That's less than 1% of the number of high level characters I figured, and less than 4% of the number of 19th-20th level ones you figure. Either way, I'd be surprised if there are even 100 people of that power level on the planet/associated with it in any way...and adding 4 to that number is thus pretty relevant.

And, to be clear, a single Level 20/Mythic Rank 10 character can kill almost any number of 20th level ones. As noted, each Tier is the equivalent of a CR or so in a lot of ways, and 20th level characters are as outclassed by such a person as 12th level characters are by 20th level ones.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
(And you don't know how long that problem is going to STAY cleaned up -- in the unlikely event that I get the chance to run WotR and the following APs, expect it to stay cleaned up for some amount of time between half a year and a year . . . or whatever amount of time is needed for the characters to get dragged into a long vacation or some kind of divine contract that forbids them from coming back to clean it up again.)

Uh...the Worldwound wasn't easy to open. Having it reopen arbitrarily makes no sense. As well as making the PCs actions meaningless, which is a giant dick move to the players (who, IME, like having the things they do matter).

And there are a lot of problems way easier to fix than the Worldwound. Cheliax leaps to mind, with a party of characters on this power level able to overthrow it in a weekend and then pretty casually rule it for the rest of eternity.

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Mythic tiers have been shown to be closer to 1 tier = +1 cr, potentially more depending on the tier.

True to some degree, but see below.

CWheezy wrote:
A solo level 20 tier ten vs baba yaga is probably not In baba yagas favor.

Given that 5 of her CR is 10 Mythic Tiers of Archmage, yeah it is. If calculating 1 Tier as +1 CR she's CR 35. A CR 35 prepared caster, specifically.

Liberty's Edge

zainale wrote:
we have already seen what happens when one race tries to uplift another evil lesser race. Scar from the lion king.

[sarcasm]Yes, because Scar was a well-intentioned and wonderful person who raised hyenas from infancy to be good people![/sarcasm]

Also, 'lesser races'? Really?

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Yeah, the PCs in my CotCT game basically retired to help rule Korvosa, collectively run a business empire, and in one case start a magic academy. That's...pretty much it, really. Nothing that changed the world in a major way. Well, aside from:

making peace with the Shoanti.

But that's more of a political change than it is something power level based.

Most APs don't end in anything really world shattering, at least not if you win (again, WotR is something of an exception).

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I'd roleplay him as intelligent, erudite, and charming, as befits his high skills in practical matters involving social skills. I'd also portray him as maybe a bit nerdy and probably not physically attractive. He's also not naturally charming, he actually has to work at it. It's not effortless, and if he gets frustrated, tired, or angry, he could slip and suddenly become more awkward (presumably not when making skill checks, but it can inform roleplaying).

Arrogance is probably the wrong way to go, since arrogance does not make people like or believe you. Bruising Intellect is wonderful when paired with unpleasant arrogance (and what Sherlock Holmes or House likely have), but Student of Philosophy? Not so much.

Oh, and for the record, I really empathize with that kind of thing, since I have diagnosed Aspergers Syndrome/High-Functioning Autism, but am widely considered likable and charming (or so I hear). My social skills are an entirely intellectual exercise, and that means that, good as I am at them most times, they've been known to desert me entirely when I'm overtired, as I just can't focus on them properly in that state.

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Actually, there's also the 5th level spell Shadowbard.

Just for the record. :)

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bigrig107 wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
20th level/Mythic Tier 10 characters are almost unknown and almost completely unopposable (Geb and Baba Yaga can probably handle them...not much of anyone else, though).
I know of at least one Lich, a handful of Runelords, and a few various other agents who would like to be mentioned.

Nah, I picked my examples very carefully and specifically.

Xanderghul and Sorshen (and Alaznist, I guess) are asleep/in stasis/imprisoned, as is Tar-Baphon. And while impressive, they're not actually the equal of a party of PCs all of whom are Level 20/Tier 10.

I mean, Xanderghul is likely that powerful personally (ie: Wizard 20/Mythic Tier 10 or so), but he's outnumbered 4 to 1, and I very much doubt Sorshen is even that powerful, with maybe 6 Mythic Tiers to her name (Alaznist isn't even close, she's got like 3 Mythic Tiers at most). And Tar Baphon is 'only' CR 26, a mere one higher than even a single PC of that level, and no higher than Arazni is these days (she's leveled up since he killed her).

All are scary as hell, and death incarnate for non-Mythic PCs...but on par with 4 characters who are all CR 25 individually? No. None of them have a real chance against that.

Baba Yaga, meanwhile, is CR 30. And Geb is likely on par with her (and definitely a minimum of CR 27) given that Arazni is very thoroughly subordinate to him in their relationship (and she, as mentioned, is CR 26, and can back him up). Those two are actually starting to be on par with that kind of PC group.

Liberty's Edge

Well, as is pretty much established by the Settlement Rules, and I codified in my Level Demographics thread a long while ago, high level people aren't actually super rare in Golarion.

I mean, they are, people that high level are something like 1 in 100,000, but 1 in 100,000 when there are billions (or even 'only' hundreds of millions) of people in the world still results in quite a few of them.

Assuming a world population of 1 billion, that makes roughly 10,000 people of that level on the entirety of Golarion. Say one tenth of those are in the Inner Sea region...that's still 1,000 people. Adding 51 is relevant, but not world-changing.

And that, of course, ignores the people they killed getting there. I know, having finished CotCT, the PCs may all have been that high level, but they killed at least two people of that level to get there, and were set up to kill two more before very long (I'd probably assume they succeeded). The same is basically true in most other APs I've looked at as well.

So I doubt APs are really gonna change the number of high level people notably. What they do seem likely to change is how many of those people are Good aligned (or at least heroic), but even there, it's sorta a drop in the bucket.

The exception to all of the above is Wrath of the Righteous. 20th level/Mythic Tier 10 characters are almost unknown and almost completely unopposable (Geb and Baba Yaga can probably handle them...not much of anyone else, though). If you run that AP, the PCs need to either go on a planar quest (or something similar), or you need to start radically reassessing the world as a whole. Of course, that AP's ending sorta necessitates reassessing the world as a whole for other reasons as well...

And, as others have noted, all that assumes that the APs all happen, and that the PCs win all of them. Which a lot of people don't assume at all.

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