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Halruun

Deadmanwalking's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 5,905 posts (6,098 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 2 aliases.


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Andoran

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Secane wrote:

Humm... I feel I should clarify my original question as I have played and played with good fighter and rogue characters.

By relevant, I mean it in a why would players still want to play these core classes? When there are much better and similar themed options out there?

This is not a new problem. There's already really no reason to play a Rogue rather than an Urban Ranger, Archaeologist Bard, or Trapbreaker Vivisectionist Alchemist, for example.

Secane wrote:

It is not as if the core classes are flawed or are unusable options.

The Fighter and Rogue can work fine in a game, but it seems like the advanced Classes can do it much BETTER.

So can a Ranger, Paladin, or Barbarian. Or the ones I list above. Every objective analysis people do says that Slayer is slightly worse than Ranger, mechanically speaking...how much worse would it need to be for you to feel it wasn't overshadowing things?

Secane wrote:
Shouldn't the newer classes be made to complement the core classes? And not over-shadow them?

"Less powerful than a Ranger" seems to fall very thoroughly into this description actually. Trying not to overshadow Fighter and Rogue results in classes that are no good to basically anyone.

Secane wrote:

Really? I always thought that the fighter works fine... the rogue could be a little weak at times, but I have seen some scary fighters.

Like a pure crit fighter that was downing the entire room of mons. (The scary part was that is was build with just the CRB, only his weapon was from UE.)

Or the Fighter Archer, which could be mainly due to how powerful archery is and fighter gives it all the extra feats it needs to be scary.

Fighter does damage pretty effectively. Its issue is that, unlike every other class there is, it does absolutely nothing else (with the exception of decent AC, I guess). Even Barbarians can manage good saves and a decent skill selection, plus Spell Sunder and Pounce...Fighters just deal damage. They have no saves, no utility options, no nothing. Unlike every other Class that can pretty much equal them in damage, they have nothing else.

Andoran

Claxon wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The Abyss hath no fury like a Succubus scorned.
Which is why this plan usually ends with her as garden statuary. It's still not really a good plan, but it's doable.
That would only end with other, greater demons, taking notice that their play thing has gone missing. It might take time, but such actions would eventually have unpleasant consequences.

Oh, agreed. Just noting.

Anzyr wrote:
So free xp and loot? I can live with those consequences. Better spread the word to all those adventurers who interrupt all the evil cults around the world. "Mess with this demons plans and a bigger one will show up to give you even more XP and loot." Hell the adventure sells itself.

Attacks by clever, ruthless, opponents are seldom gonna be as simple as giving you free stuff.

Andoran

Claxon wrote:
The Abyss hath no fury like a Succubus scorned.

Which is why this plan usually ends with her as garden statuary. It's still not really a good plan, but it's doable.

Andoran

Shfish wrote:
Umm no. Read planar binding, once the task is done they instantly go back to their plane. You get one service. As soon as it has given the gift it has completed its service. Poof gone. It's next action is to do 2d6 points of cha drain, which doesn't heal naturally. Sure pull this out at a PFS table, and watch the drama unfold. There is no way to back stop a protection on this. I would love a wizard with a low cha to do this...average cha of 8...good chance he is in a coma now.

Actually...you can make the task "Give everyone in the party a Profane Gift, and don't withdraw any for the next five days." and then incapacitate the Succubus immediately after the first one's given. That works fine. It's not necessarily a good plan, but it can be done.

Andoran

Lemmy wrote:
Secane wrote:

So are the Core Classes (Figher, Rogue, Ranger) still relevant at all?

Or are they being demoted to NPC classes?

Ranger is still very useful, and overall, actually more powerful than Slayers.

Fighter has always been underwhelming and Rogue were made obsolete before you even reached their chapter in the CRB.

Mostly this.

Though I'd argue it was actually the APG that really made Rogues completely obsolete. They at least had Trapfinding as their exclusive right before that...it wasn't much but it was something. And Fighter's been pretty much obsolete at least as long as that (Barbarian and Ranger both got much better in the APG...while Fighter didn't, and wasn't really on par even before that). That's nitpicking more than disagreement, though.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Skalds and Slayers would get along beautifully don't you think?

Yep. And not just because of the heavy metal reference, the mechanics synch up very well, too. Stacking Rage on top of a Slayer is very nice and the two combined can take care of pretty much all of your skill needs, plus many (if not most) of the utility spells you'll find useful as well.

Andoran

I'd argue the 'poisons the will' thing is pretty clearly talking addiction, not getting really drunk. There's a distinction there.

And I'm not gonna argue that Cayden Cailean's perfect, and he does indeed advocate drinking a lot...but hypocrisy is quite a bit worse than that, IMO, and not a vice he seems to suffer from.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
I wasn't aware that he was ret-conned. First I've heard of it really. Do you have a source saying that this is no longer true?

As edited in above, I'm wrong there. It appears to never have been true. The only citation I have for that is the fact that the two bits I quoted from Inner Sea Gods are the only citations I was able to find in either version of Cayden Cailean's deity article involving the abuse of alcohol. Neither uses the wording you cite, and the wording they do use doesn't imply that all 'drinking to excess' is problematic (the second has similar wording, but is clearly talking addiction, not just getting really drunk)...which removes the hypocrisy thing as a problem.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:

Gee, I had no idea people were going to get so testy over this. Okay, here ya go, from the Pathfinder Wiki (which has citations for those interested).

Quote:
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.[2]
Said deity is only a deity because he drank in excess. Hence my point. Jeebus though, you'd think I had slighted someone's actual deity or something. *eyerolls*

That reference if from Cayden Cailean's 3.5 article in Second Darkness. As of Inner Sea Gods, it's as obsolete as Asmodean Paladins or Erastil's sexism.

EDIT: And, looking at the article in question, I'm wrong. It has identical wording to what I cited above from Inner Sea Gods. In short, the quote in question is just flat-out wrong regarding anything actually published by Paizo regarding Cayden Cailean. Or at least wrong regarding the source cited.

Andoran

GM Xabulba wrote:
Zark wrote:
GM Xabulba wrote:
Do you guys really want troll shaming to be thing?

what is troll shaming?

It's like slut shaming but with neck-beards.

I'm not sure how this thread qualifies as that.

Or how that's a bad thing inherently...slut shaming is bad because it's shaming people for something they shouldn't be ashamed of. Troll-shaming would not have that same problem. It's generally insulting and thus understandably against forum rules, but that's not the same thing as being inherently bad per se.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wow, people are mentioning me. I'm choking up here, folks.

Also, I'll agree with almost all of the vast number of people who've been brought up since my original post being wonderful people and excellent to talk with. I'm terrible with names or I certainly would've included more of you folks in my original list.

Andoran

Yeah, Gods lack absolute authority over, well, anything. Sarenrae, Shizuru, Nurgal, and a number of other Gods are all solar deities, but killing one or all of them wouldn't put out the sun. Nor would destroying the sun necessarily kill them. They're affiliated with it more than they are masters of it. Ditto deities of war, or magic, or whatever.

As for how a worshiper of Shizuru would feel about those of Sarenrae...probably pretty good, actually. The two deities have a fair bit in common, really. Shizuru is a lot more focused on honor and tradition, as well as following one's ancestors, and less concerned with mercy and redemption, but the two are both nice people and would probably get along pretty well.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
SAMAS wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Spook205 wrote:

Now I'm going to go home and sleep with my wife!

Every time I say that at work I get the strangest looks.
Why, are you a plant?

A plant? I thought men like that were usually called a fruit.

Andoran

Pendagast wrote:
except that the technic league are chaotically aligned

You think drug cartels are Lawful?

Pendagast wrote:
and sourcebooks specifically state they are NOT organized.

Where? There's certainly infighting and such, but I've always got the impression they could manage a fair degree of organization for the purposes of dealing with external threats.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
Pretty sure irresponsibility is a chaotic thing. That would definitely have to do with his being chaotic good. Drinking responsibility would be lawful (trustworthiness, reliability), while drinking irresponsibly is one of the common vices (recklessness, unreliability) of the chaotic alignment.

I'm not sure that's a generally applicable statement (though it is to Cayden Cailean specifically). But far more importantly Cayden Cailean isn't a hypocrite because he doesn't advocate responsible drinking in the way you're defining it. He advocates only drinking in certain moods or for certain reasons...but never advocates only drinking limited amounts.

Andoran

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Troodos wrote:
Because it doesn't make sense thematically. A knight isnt going to be sneaking around in the shadows, and a proud warrior isn't going to train for skills that favor assassination and "dishonorable" conduct, he's going to learn to fight fair and skilled.

How are Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, some Knowledge skills, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, and Swim dishonorable? And that's literally only three or four skills less than their whole skill list. Less than a quarter of their Class Skills match your description.

Troodos wrote:
It isn't about what abilities are needed, it's about what abilities MAKE SENSE. When would a soldier who fights in formation have time to learn sneak attack? Why would a gladiator want to make less of a spectacle?

Except that almost universally their class abilities, while potentially useful in sneaky situations, don't require stealth or subtlety at all. Even Sneak Attack just represents some knowledge of vulnerable spots. Along with that, they have the ability to study an opponent and fight him better, and the ability to track.

How is any of that inappropriate to being a soldier? Or a gladiator? Indeed, the 'studying an opponent' thing seems spot on for a gladiator (the tracking's a bit superfluous, but not unbelievable, and not a huge deal anyway).

Andoran

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Troodos wrote:
This class has a different theme than a fighter. Classes aren't about power they are about different play styles and character archetypes. A soldier, knight, or proud warrior isn't going to be a slayer, they are going to be fighters, cavaliers, and similar classes.

Actually...Slayer probably works better for most soldiers (especially special forces or the equivalent) or most versions of 'proud warrior' than Fighter does (see my mention of Conan above). Knight, admittedly, doesn't work at all...but Cavalier is better than Fighter for that anyway.

Andoran

You're quite welcome. I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)

Andoran

They get all the stuff every class gets (Feats, Stat points every four levels, etc.). Found here.

They don't get maxed HP at 1st level, their class kinda sucks, and they have lower stats if using the default NPC rules, but that's about the only differences.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
K177Y C47 wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
You only need 4 levels, and only lose 1 BAB. In exchange, you get offensive defense, and something else that's maybe good.
still think knife master is better for "assassin" type builds.

Why not both? They stack.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Sounds like I'm gonna want to multiclass a Slayer and Investigator! :D
I think there's your PF Batman.

Eh. I think he's easily doable as a straight Investigator. Indeed, I see no reason to add in Slayer for Batman, Investigator does it all.

Andoran

Nicos wrote:
Asumming you do not care stealth at all, how good would be the salyer taking heavy amrmor proficiency and just pretend he is a fighter?

Sadly, not workable with the Ranger Combat Style Feats (well, not without Mithral Full Plate), the duplication of which is a large part of what allows the Slayer to pull a Fighter impression. In short, it's doable...but seriously suboptimal at anything but higher levels (when you can afford the Mithral).

EDIT: Ninja'd! At least it was by someone with authority...

Andoran

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Zark wrote:
@ Deadmanwalking. Ok, you got a point. We just have to wait and see what the ACE offers to the fighter.

Yep. Though personally, I'm hoping for Pathfinder Unchained to do something...

Wrathgar_The_Warlord wrote:
Full B&B, Favored enemy when ever he/she wants? This seems like power creep, I'm quite concerned. I did see someone state that the fighter gets more feats, but this guy seems to just over power the damage potential. With that said there will still be fighter feats this guy can never get so maybe that's a bit of balance there? Maybe?

They don't get full Favored Enemy. Favored Target is half that bonus (so +1 at 1st level, maxing at +5). They also lose almost all Ranger Class Features (including spells and Animal Companion) for Sneak Attack and some Rogue Talent type stuff. The general consensus is that Ranger is actually somewhat better mechanically.

Andoran

Arachnofiend wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Ok. The guy hit harder than a fighter, have better saves and 6+int skill points per level, and skip prereq for combat feats. I suppose the slayer is now THE martial.
Eh. Rangers, Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, Gunslingers and Paladins (as well as Bloodragers, Brawlers, and Swashbucklers) still definitively do stuff the Slayer doesn't. It's really only Fighter and Rogue who the Slayer steps on the toes of in any meaningful sense.
Cavaliers, Gunslingers, Brawlers, and Swashbucklers fill more specific niches than the very generalized Slayer. The rest all use spells and/or supernatural abilities. Perhaps he isn't "the" martial, but he certainly is "the" mundane.

I was just clarifying the situation.

I'd certainly accept calling them out as the "default mundane class" or something like that. :)

Andoran

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Nicos wrote:
Ok. The guy hit harder than a fighter, have better saves and 6+int skill points per level, and skip prereq for combat feats. I suppose the slayer is now THE martial.

Eh. Rangers, Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, Gunslingers and Paladins (as well as Bloodragers, Brawlers, and Swashbucklers) still definitively do stuff the Slayer doesn't. It's really only Fighter and Rogue who the Slayer steps on the toes of in any meaningful sense.

Zark wrote:
The fighter and the slayer don’t really cover the same niches.

In many ways they do. As of the Playtest, they can get 6 bonus Feats over the first 12 levels (one less than a Fighter)...meaning that pretty much the only thing Fighters do that Slayers don't is wear Heavy Armor. That's...a really weak niche all by itself.

Zark wrote:
That said, there is a thrown weapon ranger combat style in the book so let's hope there are some stuff for the fighter in the book as well.

That would certainly be very nice. :)

Andoran

The existing Knowledge Skills seem sufficient for this to me. Knowledge (Engineering) for math seems both logical and sufficient, for example. Adding skills is also a bad call for many reasons, since any expansion of the skill list devalues skill points and makes the game more complicated in a way that's seldom useful.

And, partially for that reason, a lot of skills (including all Knowledge skills) involve multiple disparate fields of study. Arcana includes an exhaustive knowledge of dragons along with spells and magic, while Religion includes an exhaustive knowledge of the undead along with information on various churches and theology, and Linguistics includes forgery along with knowing many languages.

That said, one way to decouple particular skills from fields like math without adding skills is allowing multiple skills to be used for them. For example, the Trait that references being a math prodigy is tied to two Knowledge skills (Arcana and Engineering), so you could say that people could use either of those for math.

Additionally, the forthcoming Technology Guide will have additional, tech-based, skill uses for a number of skills, which might help codify which skills are used with which fields in areas like this.

Andoran

LazarX wrote:
Graeme Lewis wrote:


3. Golarion's population is 7 billion (lowballing? maybe).

Highballing it actually. The only reason we have billions of people on this planet, are the heavily mechanised agricultural and transport technology which does not exist, and the available magic does not provide the substitute.

I'm thinking of something in the 100-700 million range, tops.

This is an excellent point. I'd peg it at perhaps as much as 1 billion due to magic...but 7 billion is certainly way too high.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm officially extraordinarily pleased with the one noted change from the playtest being a slight boost.

The Slayer finally allows one to properly build Robert E. Howard's Conan, and has won my love from that alone, with the additional ability to effectively replace the Rogue and Fighter for those who feel the Fighter is worthless out-of-combat or the Rogue is ineffective in-combat being icing on the cake.

And congrats to Mark on both an excellent post and a successful Resurrection. Paizo's health plan is clearly both excellent and well-funded. Let's hope it also includes funding for the Restorations necessary... ;)

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Magic being a secret seems hard to accept given the nature of secrets and people in general. Unless we're working off Black Company d20 rules or Words of Power magic is predictable and in discrete units. Each time a magical discovery is made and available to the public it works 100% of the time and can be spread infinitely.

Firstly, all I said is that it being kept secret would slow the spread, not stop it. That's happened with real technologies, which are obviously reproducible. Secondly, while the magic is reproducible, only certain people can do so effectively, which makes it a lot easier to keep such things a secret.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
This is doubly important because everyone save barbarians can read and write (even commoners).

PCs of all classes (including Barbarians as previously noted) can read and write...it doesn't necessarily follow that all people can. Still, literacy is indeed pretty common.

That said...it doesn't apply to magic. Deciphering magical writings (which is needed to learn a spell) requires a Spellcraft check, not simple literacy, and that's far less universal. Saying that literacy matters to spreading magical knowledge is like saying that speaking English matters to spreading knowledge of Latin...it just doesn't follow.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Most of the tech problems I'm talking about still concern the practical application of magic and culture to everyday lives rather than non-magical technology. Though the weird technology stasis of the continent in general extends to non-magical technology as well.

What 'magical technologies' aren't universal? There are some areas where spellcasters are more common, certainly, but they aren't more effective than those in other places. That's like having more doctors or engineers one place than another, not a different technological level.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
I thought the Galt revolution had been going on for 70 years. Even so one would expect the modern Galtese to be less French revolutionaries and something far more desperate. The nature of the conflict should have changed over those successive years. It isn't the fact that the conflict is going on that long period that is silly so much the fact that it's method of continuing is static.

It's explicitly 'over 40 years'...so less than 70. And they are pretty desperate in many ways. Check out The Secret of the Rose and Glove for example. That's canonical, and about as close a look as we've gotten at Galt.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
The US only had an attack on its soil once throughout the war. Before the world stone were erected one would assume demons were teleporting all over the place. That sort of trauma should leave lasting scars on nations. Unless demons just don't use their infinitely superior mobility in the war on humans. Hence why I was thinking it comparable. Europe and China in the analogy being people actually at the Worldwound.

Uh...it was 70 years ago that the Wardstones were erected, and according to the Worldwound book the Demons prior to then (for whatever reason) focused almost exclusively on Sarkoris and Mendev. So...no, that's not what happened. And it pretty much has defined the cultures of those places.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
In a ASoIaF you also have far fewer culture groups all of which bleed into each other with plenty of transitional room between the absolutes. In Westeros you had Wildings, Northerners, Southerners, and Dornish. Sure you have subgroups, but you can clearly see how they all influenced each other and where migrations happened.

Uh...you can do the same with Golarion. Ustalav discusses how the Varisians came in and displaced the local Kellids, Brevoy talks about several relevant cultural influences and changes. And so on and so forth.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Garund and Tian Xia are not the problem, or rather it isn't a problem that they are really different than Avistan. The problem are how different yet limited nations right next to each other are. Cheliax as a nation (meaning people self identify as Cheliax not necessarily an independent country) has existed for more than 1600 years. Yet the only concrete societal change we know about them is adopting devil worship and declaring independence from Taldor. Changes that massive should come at least every hundred years. Hell languages usually don't even last that long let alone nations.

Uh...for the first thousand years of that Cheliax was part of Taldor's empire. A province of the Empire. It's only been it's own nation for 700 years or so. And underwent quite a few cultural shifts in that time. They aren't mostly gone into in detail...but that has to do with the game being focused on the modern day of Golarion, not in-depth historical details, not there not being such history.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Don't get me wrong I like Golarion for all its warts and issues. The way I like it though is as a source of really really cool individual ideas rather than as a whole. The whole is too old and too little melting pot for me to take seriously.

I disagree. Rather obviously. :)

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.
This. :)

Uh...that's not what Cayden Cailean advocates.

To quote his deity article (and the only sections that speak to how he feels about what kind of drinking is appropriate):

Inner Sea Gods wrote:
As the god of wine, Cayden's interest is in the merriment and socialization alcohol can facilitate rather than attempting to drown or forget sorrows, and he despises mean drunks or those who allow their drunkenness to hurt innocents.
Inner Sea Gods wrote:
The church is also aware that some folk drink to the extent that it becomes a crutch or a poison to the will. Cayden Cailean and his priests believe this is a corruption and abuse of his favorite things, and sometimes a priest takes it upon himself to counsel these poor souls, often using minor magic to bolster a patient's resolve and steering the person toward work or activities that improve the patient's life and negate the need to drown his or her sorrows.

So...he appears to be against alcoholism and drinking for reasons other than having fun, and against hurting others with your drunken behavior. That's it. And he didn't do any of that...so no hypocrisy here. He's definitely not an advocate of 'responsible drinking' in the sense of not ever getting really drunk.

Andoran

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I'll hop on board* and agree that Ashiel and DrDeth are pretty sane, reasonable, friendly folks even when I disagree with them strenuously. I actually feel like I agree with both of them way more than I disagree...the disagreements just seem to come up a lot more in discussion.

I also always find TriOmegaZero, Lemmy, Tacticslion, blackbloodtroll, Jiggy, Cheapy, williamoak, and most of the people listed thus far (as well as several others I'm forgetting, I'm sure) to be nice, reasonable, people who I feel contribute a great deal to the threads they post in.

And, as TOZ notes, Mikaze is love.

*Pun intended.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
When I say technology I mean the useful application of knowledge. In this case it can involve natural knowledge or magical knowledge.

Okay. That doesn't really address my main point (which is that most of the useful stuff seems to spread...and a lot of magic is actively kept secret making it spreading slower quite reasonable), though.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Africa and Russia for the most part either didn't have the need or ability to adopt those technologies. Though even that is a gross simplification. In general civilizations will take advantage of anything that makes life easier so long as it is feasible financially. Russia was in contact with the rest of Europe, and thus was conscious of its technology disadvantage. Hence why it was so keen on modernizing as fast as possible. The braindrain that accompanied the slave trade in Africa was in part caused by Europeans arming the leaders most willing to sell them slaves. These arms being far in excess of any technology other groups led to the most violent slavery inclined coastal leaders having dominance.

Right. But those are explanations, not denials that technological spread can be hampered by various factors. Which was the point I was making, since the 'low-tech' nations on Golarion mostly have such rationales. There's basically no nation that's vastly worse technologically 'just because'. There are always reasons if you take a moment and examine things.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Their really isn't enough. The problem is that everyone still seems to be discrete static cultures. Belkzen has remained Belkzen since the orcs got driven out of the Darklands. Their culture has changed and evolved due to changing circumstances and outsider influence. Orcs have always been orcs and there is no indication that they will ever change. You'd think that given how limited their raiding targets are by location and combat strength they would at least adopt a more sustainable culture and economy. More violent feudal warlords, less wandering savages.

Well, firstly, we don't have a Belkzen book yet, so this is a bad example, since we lack the full story. Second, going by Orcs of Golarion, several Orc warlords are doing exactly what you describe to some degree, though that's hampered by the third point, which is that as a culture, Rovagug is the primary Orcish God...and his faith actively prohibits the creation of things like farms or tools in favor of taking and destroying things. Devout Rovagug worshipers are, in fact, forbidden from making things. That's obviously more honored in the breach, but it still doesn't result in a culture conducive to settled life as farmers (which is basically required of most of the population for real feudalism).

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Galt's endless revolution is really really silly. Each time a revolution happens it should logically take up a huge amount of resources and manpower such that it's impossible for them to be sustained. It also strains belief that none of Galt's neighbors have really taken advantage of the situation. The only real way to rationalize it is to say the revolutions only affect the capitol and the peasants keep the upper class afloat enough to keep killing each other.

Have you actually done research on ongoing conflicts? The Somali Civil War, just for example, has been ongoing for the last 24 years. 40 years is a long time for an ongoing reign of terror and repeated regime changes every few years, but hardly impossible. It's hideously unhealthy for the nation,of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't happen.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
The Worldwound simply put should dominate the cultural mind of literally every nation it is near. If there was a constantly active volcano occupying the entirety of Belgium it would mean that every European culture would be in some way centered around the movements of that volcano. How ash clouds moved, warning of pyroclastic flows etc. The Worldwound only really comes up as a big deal, aside form the Worldwound book itself, in the Numeria book of all places where a sizable minority of the population in some areas are veterans of the Worldwound suffering PTSD. Think how America was influenced by WW2 despite not having its own land on the front lines. That is how Numeria, Lastwall, Ustalav, Razmiran, Belkzen, and the Mammoth Lords should be. There are enemies who will kill them for no reason with the ability to teleport at will practically on their doorstep.

Uh...the Demons are, for the most part, bound behind the Wardstones. They are literally incapable of actually coming across said stones in any significant numbers. Which makes this comparison highly faulty. It's like having a vaguely nearby warzone, or a large prison near your neighborhood, more than it is an active volcano...in the short term anyway.

It's not that the Worldwound isn't a big deal, it is, but it's not a day to day threat or something that everyone necessarily has family and friends going to fight in. Which makes, say, Mexico a better country to talk about in terms of WW2 than the US. At least, unless you're talking about Lastwall.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Nex and Geb are both problematic because they have an enormous technology (magic) advantage over everyone around them. Logically even the scraps of such powerful magic should greatly influence nearby nations. Katapesh should for example have at the very least mass produced low level wants and potions for everyday living.

Nex and Geb themselves don't have mass produced Wands and Potions for everyday living. And Katapesh is one of the most magical places on the map (given it's rep as the place to trade for all things in the Inner Sea...including magical ones, and the use of wishcraft there, and the city being guarded by unique magical guardians)...aside from Nex, Geb,and Jalmeray. So there totally is some spillage there.

Andoran

Antipaladin and Barbarian are both solid calls, Antipaladin likely the better of the two.

Bard is also potentially really good with Summoner...though somewhat less so with Synthesist.

Andoran

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Odraude wrote:
I think with Nex/Geb is the fact that two cities steeped in magic for their every day lives haven't spread their influence more.

That's pretty easily explained. Neither is especially expansionistic...and Nex is in the way of Geb expanding North, while other people are in the way of it expanding South. Nex has more theoretical possibilities to expand, but Katapesh isn't without defenses, and they'd pretty much have to go through them.

I guess either could expand into the Mwangi expanse...but why bother?

Andoran

Lemmy wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.
If they didn't fix that somehow. Which seems possible, if perhaps not likely.
I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

Oh, I get that.

I just try to always note the stuff we don't know for sure when discussing the ACG. Seems worth doing, given that everyone always seems to talk about the playtest versions like nothing will've changed when the book comes out.

Andoran

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Lots of cultures and genres is realistic. How isolated they are isn't. Tech spreads.

No, useful knowledge spreads. Unless people actively keep it secret. A lot of technology is a lot less useful in a world with magic, and given magic being only able to be used or known by certain people magical knowledge is much easier to keep secret.

Additionally...with the exception of Alkenstar (which is isolated and secretive), the technology differences in most nearby nations are borderline non-existent. You can buy Full Plate most places in Avistan, for example, and that's actually a pretty sophisticated technology.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
The British were only able to keep the Industrial Revolution under wraps for about ten years before America had stolen the tech and started their own industrial boom.

The industrial revolution utilized mass production. That makes keeping it a secret an exercise in futility. The same isn't inherently true of other technologies.

Also, Africa wasn't using those methods for a long time afterwards. Nor Russia (though that happened quicker).

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
You need to show constantly how nations influence and feedback on one another to reach anything even coming close to realism. It's very small world esq and hurts my ability to use and enjoy the setting.

Uh...they do that. There's actually a fair bit of discussion about how neighboring areas interact in most cases. Ustalav's border with Belkzen is discussed, as is the nearness of the Worldwound to Numeria. And so on and so forth.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
That being said none of this is a mark against Iron Gods which is for the most part plausible by me compared such things as Galt, the Worldwound, and Geb/Nex.

How are Galt or Nex/Geb especially problematic? Ditto the Worldwound, I suppose, though that one I can see some issues with a bit better.

Andoran

Evan Tarlton wrote:
Neongelion wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Suspension of disbelief becomes harder the more it feels like a Disneyland-type theme park.

Many of the nations are so radically different they don't sit well right next door to each other. NE Avistan feels like a mess, with its mixture of C13th-like knights, C19th-like Gothic horror, and barbarians with futuristic weapons strangely ignoring each other despite not being separated by anything more than a river at best. Stepping across a border seems more like stepping into a different world.

I still really like most of the setting up close at a local level, but the big picture feels really odd. So I'm torn between like/dislike.

How is it strange? Most Kellids in Numeria distrust alien technology at best, and destroy it on sight at worst. The Technic League, the organization with a monopoly on the tech from the spaceship, are selfish, highly efficient, ruthless individuals (spellcasters, no less) who will hunt you down to the ends of the earth if you stole a technological item. And the robots of the land do not leave Numeria simply because they were programmed not to (my theory).

Explain this as a GM. If your players still cry "but my suspension of disbelief is still being strained by the mere presence of a crashed starship on my fantasy planet!" then there's no helping them. It doesn't matter if those explanations are realistic or not, it's better than nothing.

The Technic League is also an organization largely composed of paranoid drug addicts, thus further hindering their efficacy. They are their own worst enemies in many ways, and the rest of Golarion is better off for it.

You're severely underestimating the Technic League. There's basically no evidence that they're universally drug addicts. Really, in many ways, they're like a drug cartel. And there's a reason nobody wants to piss off drug cartels. Some members are certainly addicted to their product...others not so much. Plus, they're organized, ruthless, and equipped with highly effective weaponry. That all sounds very much like the Technic League...

Andoran

Lemmy wrote:
Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.

If they didn't fix that somehow. Which seems possible, if perhaps not likely.

Andoran

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Dark Psion wrote:
How about the story of when Kess and her party met Smaug?

What, you mean the time she beat a dragon to death? Yeah, that sounds like an awesome story. :)

Andoran

Torbyne wrote:
I need to look into this "Shelyn" of yours, you just had me imagine a warpriest helping a young couple elope with some good old fashioned holy parent murdering. Could be a fun character. Would probably still just dip warpriest and then go cleric or inquisitor though.

Barring abusive, psychopathic, parents, that's really not Shelyn's area. She's NG and, well, really nice.

Andoran

Insain Dragoon wrote:
When I play a good character he's actually not very murderhoboey and when I play a neutral character they still aren't too murderhoboey.

That's cool. I approve. Exactly what gives you the idea that Kess is any more 'murderhobo-ey' than any of the other Iconics? Than, say, Valeros, to use a Good-aligned example.

Andoran

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
She just happens to have a psychological need to fight and possibly kill, no biggie! At least she has positive channels for her needs in Golarian.

Need? What need? She mostly fights in sanctioned bouts that aren't to the death with willing opponents. That's no worse than being an MMA fighter or boxer in real life. Sure, she enjoys it, and goes and does adventurer stuff too...but how's that worse than, say, Valeros? I mean, he's a professional mercenary.

Andoran

Not any official ones. There's a set of them over the Crown of the World, a few through the Shackles, and so on...but details are intentionally sparse so GMs can fill in the details on their own.

Andoran

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Calybos1 wrote:
Kess kind of solidifies why I didn't have much interest in the Brawler class on first reading, and now I know why: because a pit fighter/street thug simply isn't heroic.

Marv, from Sin City, begs to disagree with you. As does Fezzik from the Princess Bride. And Rorschach, from Watchmen. And Rocky, from the movie of the same name. And Robert B. Parker's Spenser (who might also have a level or three of Investigator, admittedly). And a host of other characters from various media.

Not all of those characters are nice, but most are heroic, and all would make excellent PCs.

And how is Kess less heroic than, say, Amiri or Valeros (to pick a couple of characters at random)? Her 'mission in life' isn't to help people, but she seems nice enough.

Andoran

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She's both. She's transhumanly brilliant, older than most nations, and so powerful that she's utterly spoiled at this point. She's petty, cruel, and vicious, because it amuses her to be so, and she doesn't feel any real need to be otherwise, since basically nobody can make her suffer the unfortunate consequences of that behavior.

You know how the internet provides immunity from consequences and accountability, thus causing a lot of people (including some very intelligent ones) to be extremely unpleasant, often in very childish ways? She's like that in her day to day life. Because she can be. Doesn't make her less smart or dangerous, just explains a lot of her behavior that doesn't happen to fall under some brilliant scheme.

Andoran

The extra Str also allows for Power Attack to get grabbed at around 5th level. That's a pretty solid damage boost for a Bard (who, with buffs, really aren't hurting on to-hit), and unlike Arcane Strike it doesn't use up your Swift actions (and they stack).

I'd say that looks worth it.

Andoran

Much as I was vaguely hoping for something else, I quite like this one, she seems both nice and fun.

And I'm betting on NG, Alignment-wise, though CG is also possible.

Andoran

NoncompliAut wrote:
You're absolutely right. Now I want to suggest somehow getting the hammer as a bonded object, but the bard archetype that does that is not really appropriate.

Much as Mjolnir is awesome...it doesn't change. Like at all. I think that makes it an Artifact or very expensive item he possesses rather than a class feature.

Andoran

NoncompliAut wrote:
Wouldn't Thor be a bladebound magus? Although I doubt that he really has the INT. Also, Hulk is probably a Mutagenic Mauler/Expert.

Definitely not. Mjolnir doesn't talk, not even to Thor.

Nate Z wrote:
How come no one ever suggests cavalier for Cap? With the battle herald prestige class?

Because he lacks a mount, and it's generally less appropriate than the other options mentioned.

Nate Z wrote:

Speaking of prestige classes, shame on all of you for not suggesting master spy for Black Widow. I mean, come on....

;)

Okay, that one's a definite possibility.

Andoran

magnuskn wrote:
Sorry, if most modules contain a page-count of (grabbing random module from the shelf, gets... The Empty Throne from Jade Regent) about 28 pages of combat related stuff (including flavor text for rooms, obviously) and 10 pages of role-playing related things, then I think my assertion of 75% combat-related writing is well founded.

I suspect that depends on how you define what's roleplaying and what's combat. Are you counting things like adventure background and summary, and location character backgrounds/descriptions? Because I'd be inclined to, and that makes a big difference.

magnuskn wrote:
Remember, I highlighted as written to make clear that I am talking about how the modules are presented to us officially. What individual GM's make of them is not what Paizo writes.

I, too, am talking about what Paizo writes. Paizo doesn't write a story in an AP volume, not really. Nor should they. Paizo provides a set of characters, locations, and ongoing sequences of events for the PCs to step into and act on as they see fit. That's not a story, it's the framework to hang a story on. And that's pretty much the way it should be for pretty much any roleplaying game module.

But that means that, if discounting background information, or only counting it as part of combat, obviously there's not gonna be a lot of roeplaying stuff unless you throw in scripted conversations...and scripted roleplaying stuff tends to be a bit awkward anyway. There are other ways to throw in roeplaying, don't get me wrong...but they tend to be rather singular events (big parties, for example) and thus hard to shoehorn into every adventure. And besides, Paizo does those. There's a major interaction in part 3 of Legacy of Fire, several in almost all of the parts of CotCT, at least one in Serpent's Skull...and so on and so forth.

magnuskn wrote:
Also, solving encounters peacefully is most often undermined by the morale statblock, which way more often than not specifies that the opponent will fight to the death.

Firstly, that's once it's become a fight (which isn't always a given by any means). Secondly, that's actually pretty rare in all the modules I've looked through. It's more common for things like demons and non-intelligent creatures, but few humanoid adversaries fight to the death if they can avoid it. To take a random module, in the Snows of Summer there are three enemies who will fight to the death who aren't undead, constructs, or summoned and bound creatures. That's a lot less than the number who will surrender or flee at some point.

magnuskn wrote:
Which I do more often than not, but the more important encounters can easily fill a single session completely. One encounter, one session. That's just how the system works, especially at the higher levels when things like option paralysis, stacking effects and lots of different enemies crop up much more frequently.

Important encounters can indeed take a whole session. And that is indeed the way the system works...so what exactly is Paizo supposed to do about that? I mean, seriously, it sounds like you're complaining about the adventure writing...but this is a system assumption. It's built in. Only by removing combat entirely can you avoid this (And in that case...why are you using Pathfinder at all? It's a very combat oriented system.)

magnuskn wrote:
Again, as written is the operative word here. If you have some dude spouting off his sob story why he became Slanderous the Obliterator to the party (and they are even inclined to listen.), then that's not how the official module plays it out most of the time. Mostly, it is "party enters room, find weird looking dude who attacks immediately" and the GM gets half a page of "Slanderous was abandoned as a youth by his hateful parents and raised by the League of Extreme Evil to kick puppies and burn villages or the other way around".

Of course that's not how the game plays out. Or how it's written. The point of the backstory isn't to recite it, the point is that it informs how you play the character, which is often highly relevant if they actually interact with the PCs (which many, if not most, do in one way or another). And that makes it useful, borderline essential, from a roleplaying perspective.

magnuskn wrote:
Yeah, well. That is what makes AP's very different from any other decent storytelling medium. In about every other medium, characters are allowed to evolve, change their motivations, grow attachments and so on. In AP's, since writers cannot predict if Player X is playing "Dimwit the Slaughterer, Chaotic Stupid Anti-Paladin", they give us some NPC's in one module and afterwards all is put onto the GM to give them their story.

Indeed. But this is an unavoidable part of the medium...there's no good way around it. So, once again, what exactly do you want done differently in this regard?

magnuskn wrote:
And while I had the very same discussion with James about how coordinating the six writers and their editor(s) is too difficult, I refuse to accept that explanation. Every other company in the world is able to hold a telephone/chat conference. Nobody is expecting those seven to nine people to stay in contact constantly, but you can't tell me that it is logistically impossible to schedule two or three brainstorming sessions over the period of six months.

What you're talking about is gonna require more than a couple of Skype meetings, it's more like a full collaboration. You know how many is the most authors I've ever seen write one good book collaboratively? Four. Y'know how long most authors take to write a collaborative work? From what I can tell at least a year. You're asking for a six person (many of whom have day jobs) full collaboration in six months. That's a trifle unreasonable.

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