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Halruun

Deadmanwalking's page

RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 8,293 posts (8,487 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 3 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

Yeah.

There's also the fact that Asmodeus is Evil, but he views his devotion to Law as paramount, so Chaotic deities are mostly outlawed, while Lawful ones are allowed on sufferance. Iomedae's Lawful, so he's more comfortable allowing her worship than that of someone Chaotic.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I agree with you that Vivisectionist is entirely valid, but you actually can pull this off pretty well with Investigator, IMO.

It's not actually any better than a Vivisectionist, mind you, but you can do it.

I'm sincerely wondering how since it cannot do any of the biology stuff that alchemists can do beyond extracts?

The biologist Investigator is vastly less mad-science-y and more actual science-y than the Alchemist version, but Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item, all Infusions, and Mutagen are still there to allow for something in the vein of a doctor/biologist.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Investigator can do Mutagens, but not feral or greater mutagens (unless your GM house-rules it). With the right talents and build, an investigator can be very effective in combat, but it's not a beast like a combat-focused alchemist.

Eh...half level to hit and damage on top of Extracts and Mutagen make for a really combat effective build. They're not gonna be pouncing much, but that aside I think they're on par.

Liberty's Edge

RDM42 wrote:

I'd say you could make a god argument that having a knowledge of a creature is not the same as being familiar with them. You can read all the books in the world on dogs and 'know' them inside and out but still not be 'familiar' with them in the same way a dog breeder, for example, is.

I would tend to go with the less generous standard that is somewhat like the teleport location standards: Has personally interacted with them on a reasonably frequent basis.

Okay...so the Druid can be from the dinosaur-infested jungles to the South (or wherever those are).

This will result in a disproportionate number of Druids being from dinosaur and tiger infested jungles, but it doesn't meaningfully change anything.

Liberty's Edge

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

I'll assume your problem is with those who keep bringing up combat.

Well you can thank them as they did a rather good job of talking casters like Druid into a corner with Wildshape as a Tiger is rather useless to have outside of the ONE job in combat of pouncing and mauling things. People may scoff at lacking hands but you know what... hands are kind of useful. Hell it's a 1000lbs large creature that everyone is terrified of.

Except, of course, that they can also be human when they want to, and can cast a huge selection of useful and effective spells to solve non-combat problems. Oh, and have more skills than the Fighter.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
That's going to suck, it's going to do very little to almost nothing in between combat, probably just hide or have the humiliation of being treated like a wild animal it looks like. Not that you want to hear about combat but it's a one-trick-pony in combat so setup and tactics for that is budkiss.

And, again, spells, skills, and the ability to have hands whenyou want.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
In downtime Fighter is making a shopping list of spells, potions and wondrous items for the Wizard to make. This is not a matter of disparity, just because it depends on Wizard's rolls and ability does not neglect Fighter from the game element of combat prep. On off combat days, the Wizard works for the Fighter, Rogue, Monk and so on.

They do? Why? Nobody in the party needs to support the Bard, Investigator, Sacred Fist Warpriest, or even Paladin.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
And if you think Charm Person makes Rogue's diplomacy pointless you are missing how they don't forget that there was a mind enslavement spell cast on them. When a Rogue is persuasive it doesn't lead to a lynch mob of people using mind control on them. All it is is an alternative to torturing people for information. In fact if you're going to use Charm Person at all, have it in a spell storing stone/ring and have the rogue cast it as they can then succeed in opposed Charisma checks to persuade them to do things they wouldn't even do for a friend.

Diplomacy is super-useful. Bards and Investigators are miles better at it than Rogues, though. Bards and other Cha-casters are way better at the Charm Person thing, too.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
And if there's going to be anything going on in downtime it's probably going to be everyone BUT the caster as they'll be working 8 hour shifts crafting as much as possible. If anyone is going to party spilt on downtime to go somewhere incognito it's going to be the least magical but most independently capable of the bunch. Detect magic is freaking hugely important.

This is a huge assumption. The Bard probably isn't gonna be item crafting, nor the Investigator.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
In exploration you cannot keep blowing a spell on everything. Sure, Wizard blow FOUR of his level 3 slots on flying until you realise the whole reason you are out here is to carefully and slowly search around the area. You don't know where you are going and quickly flying over it all for 5-7 minutes hasn't achieved much for you, though it is really cool. The party tells "fly-boy" to save those spells for when they are needed as they continue following the trail that is going to be followed the old fashioned way.

Overland Flight is 24 hours. Druids can fly for 12 hours a day at 6th level.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Certainly when the SHTF and they DO need to fly out of there, Fighter rogue and everyone won't hesitate to take it, and he's not going to have an "issue" with how he couldn't fly from his own innate ability but remember that he is flying, he is in control, as the Fighter is flying out of there he swoops by and picks up his girlfriend. The wizard can pop along and try to say "hey, I was the one who cast this spell so really you should be all impressed by me even though I wasn't the one who did the daring do... and I actually lack the carrying capacity to swoop you up while flying anyway" but it's not effective.

Except that you can be the one who did both.

Liberty's Edge

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
1)"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." how is a lv4 Druid familiar with likely long extinct dinosaurs?

Well, it's in the Bestiary, so probably not extinct. Certainly not on Golarion, where they're explicitly found several places.

Mechanically, the DC to know about an animal is 15+CR on a Knowledge (Nature) check at most. A Druid who maxes Knowledge (Nature) and has Int 10 can have a +9, and casually Take 10 to be familiar with the Deinonychus (a CR 3 creature).

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
2)What actually stops fighters having animal "cohorts"? They are listed price and details of what they are trained in.

Animal Companions use their own rules, and are far superior to basically all purchaseable animals really quick.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
3)They don't even get a Longspear so how is it the same weapons?

Reach weapons? No. They do get the Scythe, Scimitar, and several others, though.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
4)Druid won't begin to have barkskin till level 3, then for only 30 minutes per cast, then only for +2 bonus, fighter can wear medium armour without penalty by then all day. And how to cast it in Wildshape. Later on that.

Uh...Druids can wear Medium Armor, too. A Bone Breastplate is only -1 AC below a normal one, for example, and comes with no other disadvantages if magical.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

5)a)Who needs to heal themselves? party Wizard casts out Infernal Healing scrolls between fights and Fighter pitches in gold for scribing cost of stockpile

b)There's so many magic and alchemical items for healing, both for in combat and out to either recover HP or otherwise tank damage such as Troll Syptic, Vial of Efficacious Healing, Shawl of Life Keeping, Fervour Juice, Troll Oil not to mention potions for emergencies. These aren't ruinously expensive.

So...you can spend a fair bit of gold and have a caster to do what a Druid does for free? This isn't sounding like a good point. Especially since the Druid can do the same if they like.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
6)Tanglefoot bag is a thing fighters can throw, something you need hands to throw.

Its DC becomes useless real quick. Also it effects one creature, many druid spells can effect large numbers.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

7) a)CORRECTION EDIT I saw the Mythic Version, there is a regular general feat but again, another catch-up feat.

b)again, this is another "catch up" feat or item, when they don't have many feats in the first place.

Druids don't need many Feats. Spells and Wild Shape give them almost all they need.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
8) Armour Quality "Wild" is a +3 armour bonus... how is that not ruinously expensive just to catch-up with true martial classes.

Because your Wild Shape gives you at least +3 AC as of 6th level (way before you get Wild Armor), so you're breaking even or winding up higher AC.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
I'll give it to you on Pounce (at Level 6!), but it's still a far cry from just all that is a Dire Tiger. Did you ever address the lack of reach and vulnerability to brace weapons?

How many Brace weapons do enemies have in your games? I've seldom seen it come up. As for reach, once you go Huge (at 8th level) you have it too and it ceases being a factor. A few AoO are almost inevitable on a melee character...you learn to live with it. Or Acrobatics past it.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

"You are critiqued because you come of as attacking everyone for being stupid and not getting it."

Your words not mine, and that doesn't even address the inconsistency.

How are you so sure you get it? Because I think there's something you need to get and I'm not saying you are stupid, there is no need to put words in my mouth. I don't mean to be condescending but you really do need to get that most games, and certainly the campaigns that I run, start from level 1. Maybe I'm crazy but that's just me,

I'm not getting involved in this bit.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
And at Level 1 Druid is not fun to be on the front lines, they aren't fun in general. What's the party front line till there?

Uh...they work fine on the font line. A 1st level Druid can be wearing Hide and using a Heavy Wooden Shield with a scimitar and have AC 18 while they hit at +4 for 1d6+4. That's a perfectly respectable 1st level offense. Or he can have AC 16 and be doing 2d4+6 with a scythe. Again, perfectly reasonable.

A Fighter at the same level is theoretically doing a little more damage and has maybe a point of AC on them, but that's it.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
All these things are just to catch up.

Being able to cast spells plus having an animal companion is an immense advantage. Needing to work a little to also do everything a Fighter does is entirely reasonable.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

Please do not try to put yourself in a position of making untenable arguments then hold yourself hostage as if I were to disagree with that therefore I am "attacking" you personally or that I'm personally calling anyone stupid.

I hope you realise my problem with so many declaring it great then acknowledging so many problems with the solution being fears for a class short on feats, I'm too many expensive solutions to serious problems for a class that is supposedly so much better than a conventional martial class.

You're too invested in Feats. Spell-casters don't ned them to nearly the extent martials do. A Druid needs Natural Spell, Power Attack, maybe Combat Reflexes and, uh, what exactly?

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
That's another thing, in every martial build I make I really emphasise good switch-hitting ability. The ability to move, draw a weapon and throw it or shoot it and drop it is so important. There are so many excellent weapons you can pull out and use once for such situational effects, yeah you often have to be a bit closer but you're a tough fighter you can get a bit closer and be bold in attacks.

By 7th, you have Air Walk and can effectively fly. That makes a lot of the ranged stuff unnecessary.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
And probably the most important reason I'd rate fighter better is isn't a much more fun class to play. The thing about pounce and rake setup is you end up with pretty much one way to play, pounce and full attack. Fighters having hands is such an under-appreciated ability in utilising items. They keep running into problems like "oh crap, no hands, can't take a potion from their belt and drink it". Enemy got disarmed in front of them, yes, I'll just pick up and use their... oh no, no hands. I open the door again, no hands. Without a mythic feat you're struggling to even coordinate.

There's an item to talk. Or you can nod and/or shake your head.

As for 'more fun'...that's a purely subjective measure. You may well enjoy Fighters more. Heck, so might I (or at least, playing a Slayer instead since I like skills). I enjoy martial characters and usually dislike playing full casters. That in no way means that the Druid Class is not objectively better than martial characters on a mechanical level.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
It's way WAY too damage focused and still struggled to surpass fighter.

It doesn't struggle. And given how Pathfinder works mechanically 'too damage focused' is not a criticism in almost any case.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:
No I'm saying you should consider another class. Investigator sounds more your style. That's what I'm saying.
Considering investigator can't do the concept I mentioned at all.... not really?

I agree with you that Vivisectionist is entirely valid, but you actually can pull this off pretty well with Investigator, IMO.

It's not actually any better than a Vivisectionist, mind you, but you can do it.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sure...but even then, there's little incentive to have more than 9-10 Reservoir per fight (and you get that much and more by even mid levels), so you could just burn it all each fight then refresh via spell-eating rather than loading up at the start of the day.
That depends on your build. The occultist archetype is the one that needs it the most, but other builds can blow through the pool too.

Even if you're doing it almost every round, Consume Spells is only a Move Action. Saving yourself two to four move actions per combat as an Full Arcane Spellcaster isn't exactly a bad Class Feature, but it's not super necessary either.

Liberty's Edge

Kalindlara wrote:

Just want to point out - I don't think this is legal, as it's a templated creature (from an AP volume, specifically).

Can you wild shape into templated creatures? I don't think druid changes that.

You cannot. That said...you can turn into the un-templated version and that has very similar stats.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Given how gaining points in Arcane Reservoir works, a larger maximum number of points at any one time is of very limited utility compared to actual extra points per day, so this difference is pretty reasonable.
This wasn't the case before the consuming options got over-nerfed. Back in the day, you could consume lots of lower level spells out of combat to get an extra large pool while adventuring.

Sure...but even then, there's little incentive to have more than 9-10 Reservoir per fight (and you get that much and more by even mid levels), so you could just burn it all each fight then refresh via spell-eating rather than loading up at the start of the day.

Liberty's Edge

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Wildshape doesn't come at all till level 4 and even then only a single 4 hour stretch of the day.

Okay. Sure. But by 6th, he can do it twice for 6 hours each...totaling 12 hours a day. That's enough to walk around in animal form all adventuring day.

And at 4th or less, the Fighter has very slight advantages over the Druid. He has +1 BAB, possibly +2 damage from Weapon Specialization, and maybe a better weapon and armor. That's...not a super huge advantage compared to spell-casting and an animal companion (the latter of which ads more damage on average than the Fighters advantages).

At 5th, the Fighter pulls ahead a bit compared to the human form Druid with his Weapon Training and another point of BAB, though it's still doubtful that makes up for lacking the animal companion. But then 6th comes along and the Druid is running around with Pounce and the Fighter starts crying.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
You can become something like a Wolf which is medium but not a Dire Wolf or Winter Wolf which are Large Creatures. Wild Shape is "any small or Medium animal" which is under the animals list, not monsters or elemental till even higher levels. You of course cannot use any melee weapons, you can use the Wolf's natural attack which is only 1d4 with the Trip ability.

As mentioned, deinonychus is a medium animal. It has four attacks, three of them primary.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

1d4 + Strength with trip is a far cry from 1d12 + 1.

1.5*STR plus Reach plus masterwork plus magical weapon qualities.

As a Deinonychus, assuming 18 starting Strength (20 with Wild Shape) and power attack, you're doing 2d8+1d6+21 if all three of your primary attacks hit with your Power Attack on. Your secondary, while less likely to hit, adds 1d4+3. Your attack bonus on the primary attacks is +7.

So...that's 33.5 or 39 damage. And that's not counting what his animal companion does.

The Fighter, meanwhile, also has Str 18, and with Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and a masterwork weapon has +8 to hit, and does 1d12+14, or 20.5 damage.

So the Druid is giving up -1 attack for +13 damage. That seems worth it. Now, his AoO are weaker, and the Fighter has better AC...but both those advantages will be gone in a few levels, while the Druids just keep getting better.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Other than that your stats are the same except the minor +2 Strength bonus and others as in Beast Shape I that Wild-Shape is explicit is what is to be followed. HP, BAB, Saves, feats, none of these change. You lose way more than you gain.

You lose some AC most days. That's a rather temporary and overcome-able problem, though. If anyone in the party has Mage Armor, spend 1000 gp on a Pearl of Power, and now so do you. That plus the Natural Armor bonuses you get will do you just fine for quite a while.

And later, the Wild enchantment solves this problem entirely.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
As it stops you speaking it stops spells with verbal components. And nowhere does it say you can keep your armour when you transform, armour for humanoids is explicitly stated to only work for humanoids, not animals, you'd have to change into Barding. Still you have the limit of no metal. Also you're passing up Fighter's armour training.

Mage Armor and Wild Armor sorta don't require these hoops being leapt through. And what does Armor Training actually do? It increases your movement to 30 feet and lets you use your full Dex mod in armor. Being a Tiger makes you faster than that, and Wild Armor has no max Dex while you're in animal form (nor, obviously does Mage Armor). So...you couldn't really make use of Armor Training even if you had it.

As to verbal components, have you just not heard of the Natural Spell Feat? Because every Druid ever takes it, and it solves the casting problem.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Even at much higher levels what you CANNOT just copy the Dire Tiger's stats into your character stats. You get the Dire Tiger's natural attacks and only the stat changes in Beast Shape I/II/III etc and that is it. If GM allows copy-pasta of Dire Tiger then that is a problem with GM's not with Druid.

Totally true. Not super relevant when you've built your Druid with Str 18 and put all your level up points and items there, though.

I mean...a 10th level character on 20 point-buy can pretty readily have Str 25, Dex 14 and Con 16 (Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, level up points in Str, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Wild Shape modifiers) while in tiger form. those aren't quite as high as a real Dire Tiger, but who cares? You have Str 25 and are a pouncing death machine.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
And what can fighters do on the front lines from Level 8? Especially considering all their capability up till this point.

In the very early levels, a Fighter is maybe a little better than a Druid in combat. But that's gone by level 6, and even at level 1, a Druid + Animal Companion is probably better than him.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Now I know how this game is played. When I criticise others for people short of facts I get snark like "ohh, holds up mirror" when I go into a lot of detail I'm castigated for "20 pages about how sky isn't blue".

Yeah, people have been a little hostile. That sucks and I'm sorry.

That said...have you ever played a Druid in Pathfinder or seen it done? Because you're certainly just not seeing some fundamental building blocks that make Druids work.

Liberty's Edge

Strife2002 wrote:
You are absolutely correct, thank you.

You're quite welcome. I'm always happy to be of assistance.

Liberty's Edge

RDM42 wrote:
Also, looking at the ungodly number of feats/items you piled into that one spell, does the martial get to go similarly expenditure happy?

8 Feats and 30k in items? Sure. Why not?

Though I wouldn't exactly call that 'expenditure happy' for 15th level. I mean...as a Wizard, you've got 11 Feats at that point, and what else are you spending them on? Item Creation? You surely don't need more than a couple of those. Discoveries? You can't have more than 3. And 30k is a drop in the bucket at that level.

Liberty's Edge

Arachnofiend wrote:

Basically any humanoid has the same issues; it's incredibly rare to see an NPC statted out with a bunch of ranks in Climb. I was at a mid-level PFS game that was effectively solo'd by a Summoner who just used Create Pit at the beginning of every fight and had his eidolon with reach clean up the poor saps who couldn't get out of the pit on a 20 (according to the GM).

He was a huge prick about it, too. I'm pretty sure that guy is at least partially responsible for my inability to ignore the disparity because he was just such an a!@+$!! about how strong his character was, ugh.

I said 'fewer', not none. anyone with flight or teleportation is fine, for example.

And yeah, it's definitely an issue. I still remember the game I played a Synthesist (pre-Unchained) Summoner...the one time my Str 7, Dex 7 guy was caught without his Eidolon-suit he just used Create Pit to annihilate several Dire Bears anyway.

I honestly still feel a little bad about playing that character...though there weren't any non-casters in the party, and they were all pretty optimized, so not all that bad. I was trying it out to see how broken it was. It was pretty damn broken.

Liberty's Edge

Well, let's see.

You really need a flanking buddy to get the most out of being a Rogue...I'd talk to the druid. His Tiger should be fine as long as you are (it has Evasion by this level and a solid Reflex Save) and can provide perfectly good flanking for you.

If you can make a small retroactive change the Scout archetype would also serve you well. Getting to Sneak Attack on a charge is very good.

For a bit more in the way of ranged options, Quick Draw would allow you to throw some extra daggers with TWF, which is something, and is generally a decent Feat choice for someone who switch hits. Just buy, y'know, 20 or 30 daggers and go to town. Later on, if the Alchemist has Infusion, he can give you Greater Invisibility and your Sneak Attack will even apply to basically all of said ranged attacks.

Your Saves are also terrible, but don't seem to be your main complaint, so I'll just note that raising those is a good plan.

As for multiclassing...that might be a good plan, too. You have a boatload of Charisma that isn't doing a whole lot for you mechanically, and dipping a Class that it helped with is no bad idea. The first thought that leaps to mind mechanically is Paladin...but I doubt you're LG.

That being the case, have you thought about Oracle? A few levels of Warsighted Oracle of, say, Metal with a fun Curse might do some very nice things for your abilities in combat. It's not an optimal build, but then neither is your character to start with. It'd let you do your own Inflict spells (or use a Wand anyway) as well.

Alternately, a few levels of, say, Lore Warden Fighter would load you up with Bonus Feats, possibly enough to make you a viable ranged combatant (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot over the next two levels) and let you switch to a Longbow for ranged. You could get some of the same effect plus some synchronicity in abilities going Slayer. Indeed, you could go Slayer for the rest of your levels and probably not regret it, gaining Sneak Attack at a lower rate but many compensations. Either would also work even if not dabbling in archery, but are less necessary in that case. Urban Barbarian or Urban Bloodrager is also a possibility, jacking your Dex up even further and providing some interesting options.

Really, a dip into many martial classes would be potentially good, especially those with sneak attack or who gain something out of Charisma.

Liberty's Edge

GeneMemeScene wrote:
The introduction of Advanced Weapon Training has made the Archer archetype MUCH worse than the base Fighter, because Archer loses Weapon Training. So just stick to the base Fighter or the Weapon Master archetype.

Yep. This. You might even want to swap out some Feats for Advanced Weapon Training (which is, indeed, allowed). There are several really good options.

Liberty's Edge

Arachnofiend wrote:
Honestly, whoever decided that the Pit spells need to be impossible for most CR-appropriate creatures to get out of really needs to be made to sit in the corner and think about what they've done.

Actually, it's not quite as bad as portrayed. Remember that you get -10 DC if you can brace against both walls (ie: are large sized) and -5 just by standing in a corner.

Golems are still utterly screwed by level appropriate pits, but fewer other things are.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah...Peggy knows what's going on almost precisely. She doesn't know about the super powers, but she's dead on other than that.

It's proving it that's the trick.

Liberty's Edge

Wow. People seem really down on Prestige Classes in Pathfinder. I mean, only a few are worth dipping into? Really? There are some exceedingly shiny prestige Classes out there. A quick list:

Arcane Trickster just got really nice recently. You can now dip one level of Rogue, take a Feat for another d6 of Sneak attack and enter it at level 5. You are now a Wizard with a single level of delayed spellcasting, but extra skills, Sneak Attack, and the ability to disarm traps telekinetically. And the other goodies Arcane Trickster grants.

Master Chymist is and always has been an excellent route to go as a Mutagen focused melee Alchemist. Tripling your daily Mutagens is shiny, and Full BAB isn't too shabby either. A lot of people will stop after 3 levels, but it's still solid.

Holy Vindicator does some very cool stuff for melee Cleric builds.

Mammoth Lord is wonderful if you have a mount, don't cast spells, and you're gonna be outside a lot. That's gonna vary by campaign, but it's definitely a viable and effective option.

The Paladin of Irori is tricky to qualify for, but borders on broken once it gets going. What amounts to as many Smites a day as you like, targeting Evil or Chaos (your choice) is a hell of a thing.

Evangelist actually does what was discussed above and advances your existing Class Features. So...that's awesome. It loses you one level of them, but still.

And every Prestige Class that gives a Caster Level every level (and there are several, Cyphermage and Envoy of Balance leaping to mind) is obviously good if its abilities are at all on par with those of, say Wizard (and frankly, they're mostly better).

That's all more-or-less off the top of my head, mind you.

I...really can't think how you can make Prestige Classes better than the high end of the Pathfinder Prestige Classes without almost forcing everyone to take them...which is exactly what happened in 3.0 and 3.5 and not fun at all for new players. So...let's avoid that, shall we?

Liberty's Edge

Relevant FAQ:

APG FAQ wrote:

Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

If adding one bonus feat to the list you can take count, so does adding an Arcana.

I'd allow it in a heartbeat in my own game, but it seemed worth noting.

Liberty's Edge

Kurald Galain wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
True only at low levels. Still, you have a point. It depends on what accuracy boosters you have access to, I suppose.
At higher levels you can do the same with Holy and/or Bane.

Yeah...but by the time you're doing that, you can do it and make the weapon +5, so that's just a damage enhancement, not trading attack for damage, and would stack with Power Attack.

But like I said, it depends on whether you're getting buffed, getting bonuses from flanking regularly, or otherwise have surplus accuracy whether it's worth it or not.

Liberty's Edge

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I never did 3.0 or 3.5 a lot, and I know Prestige Classes were more common then...but how can you miss something that's still very much around?

There are several prestige classes that still see a bunch of use, or at least should. They're not ubiquitous, but if you like them there are a number that are definitely worthwhile and create useful and effective characters.

Archetypes are cool and provide some of the same feel (though really, they're more like AD&D Kits, which is awesome)...but Prestige Classes still exist and do some very cool stuff that archetypes don't.

Liberty's Edge

Kurald Galain wrote:
You should avoid power attack; a Magus shouldn't spend a feat on that, as he can already change his +4 weapon to a +2 flaming shocking weapon (-2 to hit for +5 damage). Getting more to-hit penalties than that is not practical.

True only at low levels. Still, you have a point. It depends on what accuracy boosters you have access to, I suppose.

Liberty's Edge

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-Grijm- wrote:
Which book is Deep Marshall from?

Arcane Anthology, just out.

It's a Dwarven take on Magus (though not requiring you to be dwarven in the prerequisites), restricted to Dwarven weapons (battleaxe, warhammer, etc.), getting less Arcane Pool, and losing its 3rd level Arcana, but getting better armor options (Medium at 1st, Heavy at 9th), and automatic skill ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Profession (Miner) equal to level (starting at 3rd).

It also loses all enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells from its list to gain all abjuration spells of 6th or less from the Wizard list and a selection of thematic spells involving crafting and mining.

It's a pretty solid looking Archetype for a Str Magus, really, though I don't think it stacks with much and losing Mirror Image hurts.

EDIT: Semi-ninja'd. Ah, well.

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Casual Viking wrote:
Most Int builds who want armor are probably better off just taking that one level of Fighter for proficiencies and a bonus feat (and by Fighter, I mean Gendarme Cavalier).

Eh. Self-buff 6-level spellcasters (which Alchemist, Investigator, and a Transmutation-based Occultist all fall under) can usually better afford a Feat or two than a lost level of casting and Class Features.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Deep Marshall Magus gets medium armor right off bat and then gets heavy armor at level 8.

It's at level 9, actually. But the point stands.

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Fang008 wrote:
Well that really sucks. My GM wont care but I can always ditch fiendflayer. I just saw that it didn't replace anything and figured it was a last ditch effort if I needed an arcane point to survive.

Yeah, it's annoying.

Fang008 wrote:
Thanks, power attack would be better than weapon focus, I just worried about negatives with spell combat. I'm not sure about AP but every PFS game I've played has creatures with decently high AC.

Well, it's not like you have to use it. And Magi get pretty darn good accuracy pretty quick, especially if anyone is throwing out any communal buffs.

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So! I'm in Book 6 of CotCT, so I think know pretty well what the cultists should do. Spoilered for AP details:

Spoiler:
Well, the queen should be super upset by this development and, IMO, remove all Grey Maidens to maintain plausible deniability.

The Queen's Physicians, meanwhile, probably should replenish their numbers. They're up against a wall here. If ranged worked well last time, they'll likely gather on the catwalks and prepare to rain hell on the poor PCs.

The actual cultists in the cavern below should be very on guard, probably gathered together in one room for safety.

I'd have everyone (including Rolth) I don't mention below gather together in Rooms G5, G7, and G8, and peep through the keyholes. All the undead available are in Room G4 waiting. When the PCs engage said undead, they all come out and join the fight. You should probably give the PCs a Perception check to realize they're being watched through the doors...but the cultist's stealth effectively has a +5 bonus for being through doors, a +5 bonus for the PCs being distracted by a horde of undead, a +2 for bad conditions (the undead making noise), and a +1 for distance (for a +13 bonus total).

The door to room G3 is blocked. Probably with Hold Portal cast via a scroll (or add it to Rolth's spellbook...he had time to go buy it and add it).

There should be four or five exceptions to this set of locations:

1. Technically, the sentinels in G2 should still be there, but instead of fighting the PCs on their own, if they hear the lift they immediately move to join the others via Room G4 (the undead are under Rolth's control, after all).
2. Ramoska Arkminos doesn't care about this crap and will be doing his research as normal.
3. One cultist (probably a Queen's Physician, actually) should be in G13, as soon as they see the PCs, they know things have gone terribly wrong and smash the glass and unleash the Leukodaemon. Then run.
4. Lady Andaisin is busy being arrogant as hell and communing with Urgathoa. she stays where she is.
5. It's entirely logically justified for Dr. Davaulus to have run. He dislikes physical combat and this is just a job for him. That said, that's dramatically unsatisfying, so I'd have him stay to try and finish his mission. He'll be with the other ground-floor Queen's Physicians on the catwalk if so.

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As was pointed out to me recently, Fiend Flayer and Hexcrafter technically both effect Arcana and thus don't stack. Your GM may not care, in which case go with that, but if they do care, ditch Fiend Flayer.

IME, Power Attack is worth it on a Magus most of the time, just like for everyone else. You could slot it in at 7th and be fine.

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I use this concept extensively. Not necessarily as a formal session, but I play with my friends and we often discuss what characters we're gonna play for weeks to months on and off before a new game starts.

For example, I'm currently running CotCT and when the subject of what was gonna get run next came up, one of my players volunteered to run Mummy's Mask. That was months ago and 4 out of 5 of the characters who're gonna be in that are entirely complete conceptually (the fifth guy isn't in the CotCT game and didn't participate in the 'waiting for the last person to arrive at game' conversations on this subject...but he's thinking about it, knows the other four, and we're still weeks from my game being done). This is not atypical.

In another example, when a friend of mine was going around recruiting people for the Firefly RPG he asked them what they'd want to play as soon as they expressed interest and mentioned other people's ideas so we didn't wind up with two ship's captains or anything like that.

And so on and so forth.

I feel like, in any game, you really benefit from coming in knowing roughly what the other characters are so you can avoid overshadowing or being overshadowed by anyone else, and avoid really disruptive character interactions (Paladins and Antipaladins don't play well together, for example). It's just good sense and manners, IMO.

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Atarlost wrote:

Oracles work as weaker, overspecialized, but more durable sorcerers with the right mystery. They aren't a good substitute for a cleric in any role the cleric is fit for. Their poor fortitude makes them vulnerable to a lot of touch range effects other front liners will resist, which also makes them risky healers. They can't standard action summon because they don't have an alignment aura, not that it'd be an efficient use of spells known even if they could.

You want a sorcerer with no arcane spell failure, one size larger hit dice, twice as many skill points, more than one spell known for your highest level slots, and you want to have a focus that happens to match one of the spell list for one of the published mysteries? Oracle is everything you ever wanted in a class.

Uh...there are lots of ways to jack up Fort Saves. They aren't even hard or obscure.

Great Fortitude is only one Feat, and combined with decent Con leaves you, what, and leaves you at most -2 vs the Cleric on Fort Saves until 16th level. Metal Oracles are a classic melee build and actually have a Revelation for this, that if taken at 7th in combination with Great Fortitude lets you have equal or better a Cleric's saves all the way through 19th level.

And then of course there's the racial save boosters...

Now, does that mean they're better than a Cleric at Saves? Of course not, they aren't. They're notably worse at Will as well as Fort due to not being Wis based, in fact. But they aren't crippled or anything in comparison either. And, frankly, a melee Cleric or Oracle has Feats to burn, especially a Battle Oracle, so buying Great Fortitude isn't the hardship it would on some characters.

Plus, frankly, I haven't seen a lot of these 'Fort Saves targeting melee characters only' situations, and I've been running Pathfinder for years, including a few APs. I've seen nasty Fort effects in that time, but most of the really nasty ones targeted either everyone, or whoever got attacked, rather than only those focused in melee. There certainly are auras and the like, but most of them seem to involve penalty conditions like sickened more than they do 'you're completely screwed' stuff like poison and diseases. Or are we talking about ghouls paralyzing people, poisons, and other attack riders? Because those get thrown at ranged and caster characters quite a bit in my experience.

And, of course, there's Warsighted, which does some nasty things for a melee combat Oracle that Cleric lacks any good way to duplicate.

Now, they certainly are worse summoners...but frontliners? They do fine.

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I'm so very sorry. :(

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And any Occultist can just spend their 1st level Feat on it.

Likewise, an Investigator can spend 2 Feats and be a very solid armored combatant (one of my favorite Investigator builds, actually).

Ditto a melee Alchemist (you can either scrap bombs entirely or not...as touch attacks, it's not like you need Dex to hit with them).

Frankly, if going Str-based melee, the only combat Feat you need is Power Attack...and on any non Full-BAB class, you can't get that until after 1st level anyway. A few other Feats are nice but not usually required to be effective. Play a Human and sink some Feats into Heavy Armor and you can play any non-arcane Int-based Class this way.

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Fromper wrote:

You're missing Atarlost's point.

Oracles almost never take condition removal spells as their known spells. If they did, they'd never have anything else to cast. On the other hand, a cleric can prepare whatever spells they want for the day. If someone comes down with a disease, curse, blindness, etc, the cleric just prays for that spell the next morning and casts it. The oracle would have to fill up their known spells with condition removals if they wanted to have the right one for any situation.

Three things about this:

#1: People really overstate how many condition removal spells there are. There's a max of one spell per spell level with the exception of level 3, which has three of them.

#2: This is what scrolls are for. Or, at high levels, Pages of Spell Knowledge. We're talking two or three niche spells you might not have room for here.

#3: With the Human Favored Class Bonus, you can easily get them all by mid levels. At 9th, you can easily have added two bonus third level spells and have all the condition removal stuff, your Mystery Spell, and three others.

Now, none of this is to say that Clerics don't have an advantage in this regard. They do. But it's perfectly doable for an Oracle to manage this sort of thing.

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Varun Creed wrote:
Curse of the Crimson Throne is still 3.5 right? So you'd need to convert?

It is.

Varun Creed wrote:
Do you think Paizo will ever do an Anniversary edition like ROTRL?

Who knows?

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DM_Blake wrote:
Well, they might not be a "commoner" anymore. In any case, even dipping expert is no guarantee they become experts and haggling with merchants and/or knowing the fair market value of everything under the sun.

Sure, but it rather dismisses a lot of your complaints that you need 6 levels to be good enough at it to get 16s when taking 10. Three, one of them Expert is plenty. One level with Int 14 will do it, as will 2 levels with Int 12.

DM_Blake wrote:
Back to the Appraise skill.

Sure.

DM_Blake wrote:

The original point still stands. Appraising the value of a "common" item is:

1. too high, so high that only mid-high level experts can do it consistently, or people of exceptional brilliance AND a few of the right levels and skill ranks - which hardly makes it sound "common" at all.

Uh...with Int 12, a 3rd level Expert can have +10 with Skill Focus (something a merchant seems likely to have). And that's ignoring Masterwork tools and the like.

DM_Blake wrote:
2. very inconsistent with the "common" DCs of any other skill likely to be interesting to a "common" person.

Appraising it perfectly is that difficult. Getting within 20% is DC 16, and well within the normal range for trickier skills. Disguising yourself as another person is more difficult than that, just for example.

And it's a DC 15 Survival Check to 'avoid getting lost'...if you take that as literally as your're taking this, how do people find their way home from work every day? Or, if it only applies in the wilderness, how do loggers get home from work every day? How do children ever get home from a walk in the woods or fields? Clearly, that's intended to be in unfamiliar terrain...just like Appraise is with unfamiliar goods.

DM_Blake wrote:

All the arguments so far have been fairly unsatisfying:

a. They bring lots of friends who Aid Another: not likely, certainly not all the time. It's not necessary IRL to shop this way, why should it be necessary in Pathfinder.

Which is why it isn't.

DM_Blake wrote:
b. They bring magnifying glasses and other tools to give them circumstance bonuses. Again, not necessary IRL so why should it be in Pathfinder?

Also not necessary.

DM_Blake wrote:
c. They use other skills instead. Fine. So why does this exist? Why not just drop it and add a line to the serious Knowledge and/or Profession skills? Is this a skill tax? Is that a satisfying answer?

Well, it exists for everything that isn't your specific Profession.

DM_Blake wrote:
d. They remember from other shopping trips. So now we're replacing this with an INT check? Is this a skill tax? Still not satisfying.

Uh...that only works on things you've bought before, making Appraise super useful for its normal uses in getting the value of rare stuff you just found, when buying something for the first time, and all similar situations.

DM_Blake wrote:
e. Merchants don't overcharge their neighbors. Laughable. They do if they can. And not everything purchased is purchased locally - many traveling merchants exist. And/or travelers who are purchasing from established merchants far from the traveler's home.

When 1/3 of your neighbors instantly know you're cheating them, and that includes all the ones known for the best ability to approximate value (ie: people know they have high Appraise)...you can only do this very briefly before you get run out of town on a rail.

DM_Blake wrote:
It's just a ridiculously high value for a "common" skill check, especially for a skill that can be used untrained.

Except it's really not.

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DM_Blake wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:
Any "commoner" who learns anything would be an expert.

This is not Pathfinder's definition.

In Pathfinder, "Commoner" is a class. "Expert" is a different class. See this page.

Your statement is like saying "a fighter who learns anything would be a wizard" - hyperbole, but it's still true. Learning "anything" as a member of one class does not mean you automatically become some other class.

Unfortunately, the web page doesn't list definitions for these NPC classes, but a person can be a commoner for his whole life, even if he has a job. A farmer, for example, would be a commoner forever. He might even be a very good commoner, with lots of XP and become, say, a level 10 commoner. He's the best farmer in the land, but still not an expert.

And yet, per their own listed NPCs the only listed NPCs with Commoner levels alone are the Village Idiot and Barmaid. Standard farmers have a level of Expert (though admittedly no Appraise) to go with their level of Commoner.

The NPC codex has more, but it's restricted by doing 1st-10th level characters of every NPC Class.

Looking to APs and Campaign Setting stuff, there are a few single-classed Commoners, but not a whole lot. It's not a typical or universal by any means.

Additionally, almost all full adult characters in Pathfinder's default world are 2nd or 3rd level, with people below that relegated to teenagers and the like.

DM_Blake wrote:

Now you're talking about multi-classing or level-dipping.

Of course a fighter who multiclasses as a wizard, or level-dips as a wizard, will know more than an ordinary fighter who doesn't. Or better yet, dips a level of rogue to get lots of skill ranks.

Of course a commoner who multiclasses as an expert, or level-dips as an expert, will know more than an ordinary commoner. Or perhaps he, too, should dip a level of rogue to get lots of skill ranks.

There's no straw men here, just an analogy to other classes.

And yet this Thread isn't about analyzing any one Class but about how the system effects logical outcomes in the world. The fact that many Commoners multiclass into Expert is, in fact, super relevant to that discussion.

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CBDunkerson wrote:
I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

This is true. Note, however, that Aroden was explicitly LN, which explains the lack of controversy over him maybe being Good (since he explicitly wasn't). He had good qualities, but this one wasn't among them.

CBDunkerson wrote:

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.

This, however, is pretty indisputably true...assuming he's aiming for such a change. If he's just playing the long game hoping for a moderate increase in general capability, with magic and centuries to work he might actually manage it.

If he's trying to really change how people work via breeding, then yeah he's basically doomed to fail. If he's Good, you can take the tack that he means well, and unlike the Alliance in Serenity is trying to use moral means to get there...but he'll still fail. And, since he's Good abandon that aspect of the project (he might keep the nation going without that aspect).

If he's not Good, then yes indeed, failure in the project will almost assuredly lead to tyrannical badness.

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James Jacobs wrote:
For the record: I do NOT have any problem whatsoever with Mengkare or Promise. I think it's an incredibly intriguing and fascinating part of the setting, and one that's incredibly well-written and imaginative. The only problem with it is that, as written, Mengkare's actions are not those of a lawful good creature in my opinion, and so if we were to ever feature him in any context in which we'd stat him up (even with a short stat block), such as in an adventure or a sourcebook all about Hermea, we'd have to nail down his alignment, and that would upset some folks because I, fundamentally, do not believe that controlling the aspects of a person's social life is good.

As mentioned above, if you make him a bit Mythic (3 Tiers) and give him Beyond Morality you can actually stat him without revealing this.

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Echo Vining wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:

Hmmm ...

Adult Dog Int = 2

Adult Human Int = 10

Adult Gold Dragon Int = 20

So this means dog breeders are evil?

I think there's a pretty clear difference between two sapient species (even if one is unilaterally much more intelligent than the other) and one sapient species, one that is not.

Indeed. Sapient species have rights in a way non-sapient species do not. Killing a dog for food isn't inherently Evil. Killing a human for food is...even if you're a Dragon. Ditto breeding them for specific traits without informed consent.

Also, there aren't any non magically enhanced dogs with Int 10. non magically enhanced humans can have Int 28. So even if sapience isn't a factor...smart humans are well within the Gold Dragon range.

Really using dog breeding as an example is so deeply inaccurate and inapplicable it defies description.

Now, as for whether eugenics is entirely Evil...no, not really. If your goal is to legitimately improve the lives of everyone on Earth and you get people's informed consent to arrange who they have kids with...I can't see an interpretation of this where that's actually Evil behavior. It's certainly Lawful in an especially hierarchical way, but Evil? Not inherently. It's a terrible idea without a really good idea of exactly how genetics work, but 'terrible idea' and 'Evil' aren't the same thing.

Now, as to whether Mengkare specifically is Evil or Neutral...that's hard to say. If his goals and methods really are all aboveboard, he's probably Good (one could argue misguided, but Good nonetheless), if his goals and methods are shadier, even just to the extent of eventually wanting his 'perfect' people to rule over others, he's more likely somewhere more southerly on the alignment spectrum.

Since we don't know the answer to that, we don't have any meaningful evidence of his Alignment.

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Ooh! I actually love Steam Powered Girraffe's music. I'm a big fan of steampunk music in general.

I wasn't aware of Isabella transitioning until right now, though. I tend to know zero things about the personal lives of celebrities unless they get yelled at me by either the news or the internet. Go her.

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Dragon78 wrote:
It's not the creatures power level, it is the fact the creature should have been some human/dragon/plus other creature traits Echidna like monster that could give birth/spawn other monsters such as any monstrous humanoid or magical beast it wanted plus maybe a template and/or mythic ranks added to her children. It was supposed to be the mother of monsters not a rape monster.

Uh...it can do that. Large or smaller creatures up to CR 21. As many as it likes over long periods (since that's a per-day limitation).

The 'impregnation' thing, while messed up, is a side-line.

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Double Bane is, IMO, not worth it. You wind up being able to do it so little on any individual day that, well, I'm not sure I'd bother.

And I wouldn't dip at all. Like all casters and those with Class Features that are really good (and Inquisitor is both), Inquisitor really rewards sticking with the class.

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Well, you can't Remove Paralysis yourself, as a general rule. And potions usually provide terrible healing compared to an actual spell.

Frankly, I think having a guy who can do emergency heals in combat is super useful. It's situational, but technically so is having a guy with social skills...and that's not something you want to be without in most games either.

Really, the part of TarkXT's post I disagree with is this:

Un-paralyzing your ally doesn't just give him one more action, it gives both of the following:

1. It gives your ally at least one more action. If it's only one action, yeah, net loss in terms of combat effectiveness. But what if it's a long fight and he manages not to get hit again? Then it might be five. Huge net gain. But even if it's only two, that's still a net gain unless your offense is miles better than his (in which case you have a whole different problem than is being addressed here).

2. It also keeps him from being Coup De Grace'd and dying, which is a long-term issue rather than a per-fight concern, but potentially saves the party a huge amount of long-term resources. 2nd level spell and a wasted turn in combat to save 7k in party gold? Sign me up. Hell, even just a 2nd level spell to avoid having to use a 5th level one (Breath of Life) is still totally worth it.

Given these points, healing him is usually (though perhaps not always) worth it.

The same points apply almost directly to bringing an ally above zero HP. At least, they do if you can bring him enough above that he won't get killed next hit.

Now, the corollary to this point is that healing in combat is, in fact, mostly useless unless it does at least one of the two things mentioned above. Therefore, the only circumstances you should be doing so under are if one of the following points applies. The more that apply, the more likely you should heal:

A. The ally you intend to heal (ie: enable to take actions again) is currently incapable of acting (or at such penalties they might as well be), and you expect that combat will last at least two more turns, and that there is some chance the ally won't go down again next turn (the higher a chance they go down, the bigger the gamble you're making).

B. The ally is incapable of acting and their offense is, for whatever reason, vastly more effective against the foes you are fighting than your own (you're melee and they are ranged vs. a flying enemy at low levels, for example). In this instance, healing them (ie: enabling them to take actions again) is pretty much always the right call unless it'll get said ally killed.

C. Healing them will likely prevent the ally's death. This is basically always worth preventing, just for monetary reasons. The corollary here is that if you have a better way to prevent their death, do that instead. But that's by no means always possible.

D. You have a huge action economy advantage on healing. Such that healing either undoes multiple enemy turns, or so that you can do it on your turn at no meaningful cost to your other effectiveness (Lay on Hands + Life Link, Quick Channel combined with Standard Action spells, etc.).
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Healing in combat when it gives your ally their action back is a gamble, and one that you should take carefully and advisedly, but by no means always a bad one.

Healing to prevent an ally's death when that's the best tactic to do so is a strong logistical move at the cost of a tactical advantage, and logistics almost always trump tactics, meaning you should usually do it.

Healing when you have an action economy advantage is just good math.

If healing neither gives your ally their action back, nor saves their life, and you lack a huge action economy advantage...why are you doing it in combat?

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Derek Dalton wrote:
Bonus to a skill is one thing. Disarming Magical traps is a whole different matter. Few classes can do this with even fewer archtypes. While most modules don't recommend a Rogue some do knowing it's full of magical and often deadly traps.

Uh...if by 'few Classes' you mean 'three different Classes that fill out most party roles aside from full caster' and by 'even fewer archetypes' you mean something like half a dozen, including ones for full casters...

Disarming magical traps is an important thing in some APs and adventures, certainly, but it isn't very hard to get as long as you agree beforehand someone needs to have the ability.

And that leaves aside the Detect Magic + Mount workaround mentioned above.

Now Unchained Rogues aren't actually a particularly bad class (though corebook Rogues are), but going Rogue for Trapfinding isn't actually super useful or necessary.

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I'd respond more fully to the main gist of the thread above, but I think my first post would be just as appropriate here as when I posted it. That's still my opinion.

Short version:

You don't need a character whose combat role is healing. You need someone who can do combat healing in emergencies and do non-combat healing/condition removal effectively.

Now, a support/buffer character is another matter and very useful, but healing is not their primary combat action most turns. Even an Oradin, who heals very well most turns, does most of that as a Swift Action, while doing other stuff.

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Derek Dalton wrote:
Anyone can disarm traps now. Magical traps on the other hand is limited to Rogues and a few archtypes.

... or anyone who takes the "Trap Finder" trait ("You can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.").

Literally. It's now half a feat to have that ability.

Except that it comes from a specific adventure path and it might not be allowed in other APs. I know a case in which the GM has allowed it just for the Trapfinding, but not every GM will be like that.

In fariness, I'm with Quentin on this one. The Mummy's Mask Traits each provide two separate bonuses which are each worth a conventional Trait (Blood of the Pharaohs, for example, gives +1 Will Save, and +1 to two skills and make one class). That makes calling Trapfinder 'half a Feat' seriously dubious. The same is true of many other AP Traits...but those are all specifically tied to that AP and using one set for another is easily and commonly prohibited on thematic grounds.

Now, I'd allow someone to take Trapfinder as a Feat in a heartbeat. Or even as a Trait that didn't give Disable Device as a Class Skill. And there are lots of ways to get Trapfinding otherwise that make calling it a party role a bit dubious...but using the Trait is a bad example.

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DM_Blake wrote:
No, that's the opposite of what happens. Failing an appraise check doesn't mean the butcher charges the stupid ("wildly inaccurate") price you appraised it for. It just means that YOU have no idea what the real value is, so you have no way to know if the actual price he's charging is good or bad.

That's almost exactly what I said in the rest of my post that you didn't quote.

DM_Blake wrote:

Here is a more likely scenario:

Martha: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Martha).
Martha: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check) Wow, that ham is worth 47 gp! Why are you selling it for only 3 sp?
Butcher: (trying not to laugh at Martha's "wildly inaccurate" appraise result) Uh, um, yeah I just got a huge shipment and I don't want it to spoil, so I'm selling it at a big loss.
Martha: Oh, you poor man. That's terrible. I'll buy two hunks at that price. Here's 1 gp; you can keep the change, you poor fella.

Or:

Sally: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Sally).
Sally: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check). What are you trying to pull? That's only worth 3 cp! You're charging ten times what it's worth, you crook!
Butcher: I am not! That's a fair price. But, I tell you what, I'll lower the price to 2 sp just for you because I appreciate your business.
Sally: That's robbery! I'll not shop here when you're charging me more than six times what it's worth. I should tell your guildmaster what a crook you are!

In both cases, the butcher is pretty close to a fair price, maybe gouging a bit but not far off. But his customers blew their untrained crappy Appraise checks and got a "wildly inaccurate" result and then silliness ensued.

This assumes people with terrible Appraise are actually 100% confident in their Appraise checks under all circumstances and have no logical abilities whatsoever. There's absolutely nothing to state that anywhere. If you have a +0 Appraise its pretty easy to infer that a lot of the time, your judgment about what things should cost isn't the greatest. If the price you figure is reasonable, you'll think it's probably right, but if it makes no sense (since peasants eat ham and don't have 47 gp), you ignore it.

Additionally, and because of this, while technically allowed by the rules, only a complete idiot GM would have you get prices wrong by several orders of magnitude on common household items you've regularly been known to buy. That's stupid on a profound level. Any GM worth their salt would have you get it 50% high or low, maybe as much as double the list price, not 1/10 or 156 times list price. Both are stupid.

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Right...except that customers talk to each other, compare notes, shop around, and know how much money they have and have the free will to choose not to spend it on things that are too pricey.

So, this one guy charges 5 gp for ham. Okay...no peasant has that, so they simply sigh and don't buy the ham. And one in four of them find that utterly ridiculous and tell all their friends that this guy is a cheat. So people stop coming to his shop and he goes bankrupt. Depending on local laws and his other business practices he may be arrested.

That's...pretty much the only ending for a guy whose mark-up is more than 20% over list. People notice, talk, check other shops, and have only limited money to spend in the first price.

Or, to put it another way:

The woman who thinks a ham costs her firstborn child probably just isn't gonna buy any ham. The price is too high.

Or, more likely, she's delighted that the posted prices (which most shops have) are so much lower than she was expecting and buys it for the listed 22 copper.

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:
That makes sense for the merchant who makes a living appraising the things he buys and sells.

Oh, absolutely. Few people will have the +10. +6 is gonna be a little more common, though.

DM_Blake wrote:
But you won't find your average butcher, baker, or candlestick maker with Appraise scores like that - 99% of commoners can't get anywhere near a 20 when they Take-10. Which makes buying and selling anything outside the purview of their own profession a total crap shoot.

Sure, but not all customers are Commoners, and even with a +0, people get it right 1/4 of the time. That means that significantly more than 1/4 of a particular shop owner's customers will instantly know if he tries to rip them off. More, actually, since it'll also be his Bluff vs. their Sense Motive to lie convincingly.

That's enough to keep most shops mostly honest, and frankly not too different from the real world, where, again, most people know very little about the price of even common goods outside their areas of interest/stuff they buy regularly. They do tend to be a bit better than those without Appraise in Pathfinder, but I'll go into why that might be below.

DM_Blake wrote:
Hell, I'm a software engineer. I have zero professional talent for buying or selling anything, except maybe video games and RPG books and accessories. But ask me the price of a can of soda, a bottle of ketchup, a pair of shoes, a screwdriver, a paperback novel, a blu-ray, or a pizza, and I can tell you to within a few percent margin of error.

If you buy those things regularly (and they all sound like things you do) you have an interest in buying and selling. Ours is a consumer culture in a way that a medieval farmer's was simply not. Y'know what a medieval farmer bought? Seeds, livestock, cloth (or more likely the things necessary to make cloth), and the tools and materials used to repair his home. That's pretty much it. And he probably only bought such things a few times a year, from people he had an established deal with and knew personally.

By the standards of a world where that's the norm, almost nobody in a first world country in the modern world is a Commoner, we're all Experts for the most part, and we almost universally select Appraise as a Class skill just for living in a culture where we do so much shopping from strangers routinely.

DM_Blake wrote:
In other words, I can get thta DC 20 every time. By Pathfinder standards, that means I have an INT of 30 (even MY ego isn't that overblown) or I have put ranks into a skill that I don't personally use or care about.

I'm pretty sure you care about buying things more than someone who does it once a year. Hell, so do I, and I rarely buy anything. And 'within a few percent' price estimation is the hallmark of 16+ rather than 20+. Yeah, 'a few' is technically up to 20% but you'll find that much variance just from place to place even for goods in the real world, never mind someplace with less travel.

DM_Blake wrote:
Even if I'm really smart but within the range of normal people, say, with an 18 INT, that still means I have 6 ranks in Apprise which means I'm at least a level 6 commoner (or expert probably, but I didn't pick Appraise as a class skill because I just don't care about shopping at all) who has devoted 1 rank every level, or I'm even higher than level 6.

Your player picked Appraise because you live in a culture where that's appropriate. Remember, the player picks the Expert's Class Skills, not the character.

DM_Blake wrote:
I don't feel like I'm level 6. I don't think anyone would argue that I'm inhumanly (or even maximally) brilliant. Yet I can nail that DC every time.

Because you have Appraise as a Class Skill, a rank in it, and a decent Int mod. Sure.

DM_Blake wrote:
Which was the whole point of the thread - commoners like myself should be able to be reasonably accurate and appraising things like I mentioned, but by Pathfinder rules they must be very extraordinary commoners indeed.

If you're a software engineer, you definitely qualify for at least a level of Expert. So, for reasons stated above, Appraise is probably a Class Skill. Assuming Int 14, one rank (the amount a casual shopper in today's society probably has) lets you Take 10 and get a 16. That's all you really need to 'be within a few percent' on the price of random things.

And all of that is leaving aside my earlier point about Appraise being for stuff you don't buy routinely since memory alone gets you those.

Liberty's Edge

paul Riggs wrote:
no I did not mean do a whole adventure path during a 4 to 5 hour session but small bites of a campaign so you could do parts of the adventure path once a week for 4 to 5 hours similar to a scenario

This is how they are usually done by most people who do them. So...yes, that works.

Liberty's Edge

The party doesn't need a medic. Not in the sense of in-combat healing as a regular thing they do every turn.

What the party needs is someone who can, out of combat, remove harmful conditions, operate a Wand of CLW, and manage a Raise Dead.

In-combat, all they need is to be willing to step in and cast a Cure when someone's in the negatives, and eventually do that with the Heal spell instead. Breath of Life is super nice to have, too.

That's...pretty easy for any Cleric or Oracle to provide (okay, the Oracle needs to invest some spells, but not all that many of any level but 3rd). Or for a Healing Patron witch. An Alchemist with Infusion can actually manage pretty well, too, especially a Chirugeon.

And so on and so forth. Heck, you can easily split up the duties. A Hospitaler Paladin with Ultimate Mercy to handle HP damage and Raise Dead while an Alchemist keeps a third level slot or two free for condition removal would work fine, for example.

None of the conditions I list above necessitate having 'medic' be your characters primary role. A Warsighted Oracle of Battle with maxed Str and starting Cha 14 and mostly combative spells can easily handle as much healing as the party ever really needs, especially if human and using the FC bonus, while still being primarily a melee combatant not 'the medic'. You can do the same with a dedicated save-or-suck Witch by taking the Healing Patron. Or with a Cleric by existing as a Cleric.

Liberty's Edge

That seems a reasonable replacement, yes. Given that it gets replaced by Mutagen, anyway. Same number of rounds as a Barbarian.

I'd do that, and replace something else with Rage Powers if you want them. The bonus Feats seem an obvious possibility.

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