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Halruun

Deadmanwalking's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,779 posts (3,972 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 2 aliases.


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Andoran

There's also the Protective Penumbra spell, though that's 2nd level and has only moderate (10 min/level) duration.

Andoran

Rynjin wrote:
Blackstorm wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

How can a gunslinger do that amount of damage? Just curious, I'm not really much into gunslinger, so I don't know his potential. Could you tell me how you get those 11d6+31? Seems really high. And 7 times in a single round? How?

The 11d6 baffles me as well. 5d6 I get (Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly on a Pistolero), but where's the other 6d6 from?

The +31 is easy enough though. Dex at high levels will be maxed. Probably at least 28 (+9), Gun Training at 17th level (+3), a +5 gun (+5), Deadly Aim (-5/+10 at 16th), so that's +28 there. Point Blank Shot adds another, so +29.

The extra +2 can be come across in any number of ways.

Actually...there's some of the extra 6d6. Something like Holy + Dragon Bane is an Extra 4d6+2. So 1d8+9d6+31.

Attacks is simple too. 4 from BaB, 1 from Rapid Shot, two from TWFing/Improved = 7 attacks.

There's a few other ways I think but that's the most likely.

As mentioned, I was assuming the Axiomatic. It's not always available, but neither are magical guns at all...but aside from the weapon, that was a seriously basic build, so I don't feel too bad.

As for attack number, I was assuming the Gunslinger got a surprise round, and had Haste. that's 7. TWF would add two more.

Mechalibur wrote:

The only problem with gunslinger is that the dragon can usually stay out of touch attack range using flyby attack. Or just grapple/crush it. Or cast Fickle Winds or something.

Gunslinger can take it down really fast, but they might need some support based on the spell selection and tactics of the dragon,

This would be why I mentioned ridiculous Stealth...

Andoran

If you walked in and murdered the guy unprovoked (aside from him being Evil), your GM is right.

If he tried to kill you and you just tried to kill him right back, you are right and what you did was fine.

If the guy in question threw a (non-lethal) punch at you and you responded with lethal force...then I'm inclined to go back to the GM being right, but I'm betting it's the second situation and your GM is being unfair.

Andoran

Lord Mhoram wrote:
And every single "what is your alignment" test that is out there pegs me as Lawful Good... and I agree that is an accurate description. So it's not really a surprise that I play LG.

Mine all peg me as on the Chaotic end of NG...which is also not surprising and perhaps explains my own preferences. :)

Andoran

Cevah wrote:
I don't see where you get the +8 from being a Synthesist.

The Skilled Evolution. +8 to one skill of your choice.

Andoran

Joana wrote:
@Matt Goodall: Wow, that spoiler is incredibly disheartening to read. It means that Paizo has purposefully changed a male NPC into a sexy enslaved female in need of rescue, in at least this one instance.

Let's be fair, I suspect the situation remained the same, and they also changed a powerful male leader into a female one in Legacy of Fire.

The issue is the gender swap, not the status of the NPCs in question.

Still, good info to have. Thanks Matt!

I wonder if it was an art issue like it was in LoF...

Andoran

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

It gets much worse as a Gunslinger 14/Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 4, since that lets you Smite for even more damage and actually does just about everything on the aforementioned list.

That's all without dual-barreled weapons, for the record.

Andoran

FanaticRat wrote:
So what's the point, then? What does this thread prove?

Either way you do it it's a comparison between classes. A Synthesist Summoner with a Paladin dip soled everything easily. An Inquisitor or Druid can probably manage to solo it, but it's a little dicey in parts. A Rogue...has a seriously difficult time in a few bits, and, unlike the others, only works at all because of a very niche specialty, and wouldn't be much use in a group.

All that is useful information when comparing said classes.

FanaticRat wrote:
It'd be nice to see more sample teams and how they work together, or, hell, even seeing how a team of the characters posted here would work together.

This was suggested, and a good plan. Nobody ever quite got around to doing it. Feel free. :)

Andoran

FanaticRat wrote:
So are these encounters meant to be solo'd or meant to be played with a team?

Originally? Done as a team. But a lot of people thought we could build characters who could solo them. We appear to have been correct.

Andoran

Are you giving the other players almost 60k in items? Or do they already have that much more than the Swashbuckler? If so, you're good. If not, the problem isn't being too nice it's being unfair.

Andoran

insaneogeddon wrote:
Anyone with a holy axiomatic dragon bane bow !

Holy Axiomatic Dragonbane gun is better. For a Gunslinger anyway. :)

Andoran

Gunslinger. Because your attacks all hit. Period. And all add Dex (which you have maxed out to a crazy degree) to damage.

Pistolero does more damage, but Musket Master doesn't have to get as close and might thus be better. Hard decision. But Gunslinger is the way to go.

Just take the standard ranged combat stuff, plus Signature Deed if going Pistolero, something to let you fly (winged boots come to mind) maybe Gun Twirling and TWF feats if you have the Feats to spare. Maybe grab a Trait for Stealth as class and max it to get close enough.

Wizard's a close second (as it always is), along with Alchemist (actually alchemist might technically be better at short ranges, though they are a bit nova-y).

Andoran

Chernobyl wrote:
+1 armor

This. More AC is always great.

Andoran

nekoyami wrote:
can alchemists heal/buff others?

As of 2nd level, yes. As long as they take the Infusion Discovery, anyway. Not as well as some other characters, but they can do it.

nekoyami wrote:
dawnflower is one of our combos already, and it'd basically be a carbon copy of that one...

Yeah, that'd likely be a bad call.

nekoyami wrote:
oracles mostly have 1/day abilities which is what mostly deters me from them..(i am looking into a flame oracle tho)

They're also spontaneous Divine Casters who get Fireball. And not all of their Revelations are once per day, Cinder Dance, Molten Skin, Gaze of Flames, Burning Magic, and Wings of Fire all leap to mind as non one-use Revelations that are potentially useful and cool.

Andoran

Oracle of Flames has thematic synergy pretty well sown up. As does some sort of Divine God-worshiping character of an appropriate fire deity. Dawnflower Dervish would also work here for the same reason. A bomber Alchemist is also likely to use and enjoy fire quite a bit, and would thus fit thematically.

An Ifrit of almost any class is also fairly workable.

Mechanically speaking...you need some healing if you're going to be the only two PCs...which would be why all the Classes listed above have some of that. That's all you really need, though.

Andoran

Go with a Wizard. I recommend a Conjuration (Teleport Subschool) one with the Pit spells and Aqueous Orb. That has a tendency to take Clerics right out and not do pleasant things to Paladins either. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are musts, as is maxed out Int. Dabble in Fort and Will Save spells...but Reflex is your bread and butter.

Andoran

Mojorat wrote:
I doubt it. There are not a lot of moduals in position to use a cr21 bbeg.

That's about right for an AP, though. I don't think they've done it yet, but it's possible.

Andoran

Lifat wrote:
So technically doable on lvl 4... But the restoration to get rid of the 2 negative levels are going to be expensive at that level.

True.

Personally, I wouldn't allow retraining to grab this, making the minimum level 7 again. At that level Druids can reincarnate, so I have no problem with a Paladin who's invested three Feats into it being able to Raise Dead.

Andoran

I generally roleplay all my stats. Though, in fairness, physical stats don't usually require as much effort.

High Int is easily played as long as you're fairly intelligent simply by putting in more effort, researching game related stuff during the time between games, and the fact that in combat you have at least an order of magnitude more time than your character to think things through.

High Wisdom should basically be played by being careful and methodical, and working to be the voice of reason and realism in the party...going with the good plan rather than the hilarious one is a good example.

High Charisma is the hardest to roleplay if you don't have it in real life, since it amounts to sheer force of personal magnetism, but describing your character as pretty and compelling can help, as can putting points into the social skills so you're actually quite good at them.

High Con is either inherent or the result of exercise, or both...so having your character exercise is really all the roleplaying you can put in. Ditto high Strength, though in both cases describing your character in an appropriate manner can also help.

Dexterity can represent a number of things, and you can and should decide which apply, but having high Dex characters demonstrate their prowess casually while at leisure is one of the better ways to roleplay it. I had an Elven Rogue who spun knives around her fingers casually whenever she wasn't doing anything else at the moment, for example.

Andoran

doc the grey wrote:
I think I'm going to have to do a few of these.

Happy to have been of assistance, then. :)

doc the grey wrote:
I like the vampire but I'm not sure how I would implement it in a warfront game centered in an American Great Plains style setting without having to make some items to keep him from burning or some GM fiat. On that note though I could make like a Mummy or Graveknight...

Those are harder to conceal, IMO. Personally, I'd stick with Vampire and give him an item of Protective Penumbra at-will. By the magic item creation rules, that's around 4500 gp, and very affordable. EDIT: Rechecked that and I'm totally wrong on price. It's more like 18k. Still doable, though. Or you could have a cheaper and more limited version.

doc the grey wrote:
On Lycanthropes I've already been playing with the idea of werelions since they are both Nurgals patron animal and pretty just dickish irl which would fit the setting.

Ooh, yeah, were-lions are an excellent idea. Go with that.

doc the grey wrote:
Half-fiends have already been mulled around and might come up as specialized offspring from a very specially created Brood Mother orc that has been fleshwarped and demonically consecrated by the Orcish higher ups to produce powerful, combat ready half fiend orcs. Think like the Dhiakia from B4 but with a much lower CR.

Nice. :)

doc the grey wrote:
And I do totally need an Antipaladin of Nurgal. If this is essentially his party his chosen fighters do need to be their.

Oh, yeah, it's basically required.

Andoran

Go Bard instead.

It will eventually get you more Skill Points than the Rogue if you use Versatile Performance properly. It also gives you utility and defensive spells and makes you an excellent buffing character with very minimal investment. Go Human for the extra skill points and Focused Study (which will effectively give you 6 Skill Focuses if you use it on Versatile Performances), and spend your Feats on archery to remain actually relevant in combat (1: Point Blank Shot, 3: Precise Shot, 5: Rapid shot, 7: Deadly Aim 9: Multishot, 11: Arcane Strike)...you'll never be a great archer, but with all your buffs you'll be decent.

For stats, I'd go like this:

Str 9 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 7 Cha 14

And then use the Human Racial bonus in Int to make it 16. That's good enough, IMO.

That's what I'd do, anyway, and a much more effective character that should still do what you're looking for (unless you're really focused on the whole traps thing...but your suggested character would be bad at that due to low Dex anyway).

Andoran

How about an Orc or two with Templates? For example:

An Orc Vampire (personally I'd go Rogue or Bard for class, but any works) who uses his inhuman Strength and Charisma to thoroughly dominate his tribe. Has a body-double who he uses to be seen in daylight so nobody knows his secret. Ideally the PCs shouldn't know what they're up against until things go thoroughly sideways during the fight.

A Half-Red Dragon Orc Barbarian. Rides one of his half siblings (a Red Dragon) into battle and really enjoys fire.

An Orc Magus who's become a Lich. Again, not really publically known to be so, which should result in even more hilarity.

An Orc natural were-tiger (or were-whatever), who, again, is not really 'out' as what he is. Again, hilarious surprises when the PCs find out mid-fight.

Half-Fiend Orcs are also obvious, though I don't have a specific one in mind. Maybe an Antipaladin if you don't have one included yet. Check out Demons Revisited for alternate racial modifiers for those descended from particular demons.

The first, third, and fourth probably shouldn't all be used, though two of them, one real early and the other much later might well work without making it seem repetitive.

Andoran

Corodix wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Extra Lay on Hands helps...

Let's see. Starting Cha 20, +2 Item for a 22. 4th level...that's 8 right there. Extra Lay on Hands makes it 10 and doable. Greater Mercy can't be taken till 3rd level, though, which makes 5th the actual minimum.

Still, that does work, and is pretty powerful at that level. Of course that's a very specific build. Something like 8th or 9th level is much more likely. It remains an awesome Feat...but I'm really not seeing a problem here.

I don't think five is the minimum, I believe it's 7. Extra Lay on Hands requires that you have lay on hands, which you don't get until second level. So that takes up your level 3 feat. Then Greater Mercy at five and Ultimate Mercy at 7, right?

Ah! You're right. Totally forgot to consider you'd also need to be 3rd for Lay on Hands (well, 2nd, but you don't get a Feat then). But...

Remy Balster wrote:

Retraining.

Can be done at level 4.

Assuming retraining is allowed, this is doable, yeah. It's not always, especially for stuff like this. And even then, you need a Headband of Charisma which is far from a given at that level.

Andoran

Auskrem wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
So a neutral adventurer wouldn't entirely side with genocidal humans or elven terrorists.
...neither would good ones? Genocide and terrorism aren't generally Good actions.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
(okay, I totally play wild barbarians, I just lay relatively nice and thus Good aligned ones)
high-fives

high-fives back

Andoran

Extra Lay on Hands helps...

Let's see. Starting Cha 20, +2 Item for a 22. 4th level...that's 8 right there. Extra Lay on Hands makes it 10 and doable. Greater Mercy can't be taken till 3rd level, though, which makes 5th the actual minimum.

Still, that does work, and is pretty powerful at that level. Of course that's a very specific build. Something like 8th or 9th level is much more likely. It remains an awesome Feat...but I'm really not seeing a problem here.

Andoran

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Well neutral can flip sides if the needs demand, neutral is good for mercenaries, neutrality works for druids or those with a druidic philosophy and neutral ideally presents you from siding with any of the fanatical sides if your game has extremist factions.

I don't consider 'being a generally nice, helpful, guy to random people' to be extremist behavior. But it's enough to make you Good aligned most times. And the kind of character I enjoy.

DM Under The Bridge wrote:
So a neutral adventurer wouldn't entirely side with genocidal humans or elven terrorists.

...neither would good ones? Genocide and terrorism aren't generally Good actions.

DM Under The Bridge wrote:
The sometimes vicious law or the wild barbarians of the frontier. Neutrality is the alignment of the wanderer and the vagabond (which leans to NE).

This is true...I just have no desire to play those characters (okay, I totally play wild barbarians, I just lay relatively nice and thus Good aligned ones).

DM Under The Bridge wrote:
For those that prepare to fight the warriors of good, such as your enemies, being neutral can protect you from some spell effects. Also, if you are neutral, detect evil and detect good don't ping for you, bloody fence-sitter.

Oh, there are certainly mechanical benefits. Those weren't what I was talking about, though.

Andoran

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@Renegadeshepherd:

I completely disagree with everything you just said in the strongest possible terms.

Firstly...why is the fact that the PC is female relevant in terms of asking them to go seduce someone? Men can do that too, you know.

Secondly, coercing a PC into having sex is perilously close to raping their character which is never something you should do casually or without discussing it with the player first. So...just a bad idea, there.

Thirdly, that leaves the other PCs entirely out of the adventure at a critical time (unless there's an orgy or something), which is bad adventure design.

Fourthly, why in the name of all that's Good and Holy would Calistria even ask that? First, she's not a big fan of rape, which runs back into my second reason above...but more importantly, from a purely practical perspective, she's got an entire priesthood of people who are likely going to better suited to that task than the PC, why wouldn't she use the best weapon in her arsenal for something requiring seduction? It makes no sense, and damages the verisimilitude of the whole situation.

Besides...why in the world would Calistria care how her revenge was achieved precisely? I mean a mission like 'kill this guy' makes sense, a mission of 'sleep with this guy, then kill them' doesn't at all, since the sleeping with them doesn't serve any of Calistria's goals (especially since the person doing the seducing isn't actually experiencing lust...her actual area). Calistria is also known for not making her worshipers into victims, which forcing them to have sex certainly entails.

Andoran

Yep. Vengeance is definitely the route to go. Details could be anything from stealing some humiliating letters and using them to blackmail or ruin a guy, to a complex con game designed to steal all a guy's money, to straight up murder.

Being very smart, it's unlikely she'll pick a target the PC is likely to sympathize with at all. Considering the PC's power, she's very unlikely to waste the favor on taking down a trivial foe. It'll be someone meaningfuly powerful.

Andoran

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
That seems reasonable. I've always seen people do that with a diplomacy check. Knowledge Local was always used for what you somehow know.

It's actually pretty explicit that you can use either of those skills for that. Check out the Affable Trait, which grants both as Class Skills and a +2 when using either to do this.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
The specific 2 examples I was thinking about were ones that there is no reasonable way the PC's could have studied. The first was the group was sucked into another world-ish place. Think how people got pulled into Ravenloft in 3.x games. The other was the group going to an island that had been closed off from the rest of the world for centuries and was just recently rediscovered. They were the second group to arrive (just shortly after the re-discoverers) there is nothing for them to have learned from. The whole point of the adventure was learning about this new place that no one knows anything about.

It's perfectly legitimate to entirely ban the use of just about any appropriate skill in cases like this. Until they're familiar with the area, of course.

Andoran

Natrim wrote:

Okay... So check my math, would you? I'm looking at mythic Magic Missile and just not seeing a reason to NOT prepare maximized empowered magic missiles here. 65 points? at 19th level, augmented for 130? Quicken (with spell perfection or a rod) for 260 a round? No save, no Resistance, no shield spell, no spell immunity... If a group of players are fighting something that dealing damage to seems a better call then trying to force save-or-suck's....

Well, What else is quite so reliable, hmm? *also looking at 3.5 Twin Spell and thinking 'rods, spell perfection, spend 4 points of mythic power and a couple of high level spell slots for...520 points... Well. Why not?'

Less useful? Perhaps. Very very reliable and actually quite high damage? Yup.

That costs a couple of Mythic Power, though. Not a negligible expense.

Andoran

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P Tigras wrote:
I believe that there are two smaller issues that together make a bigger issue with the NPC's in the early books of WotR. The first issue is the number of NPC's the PC's are forced to take along, and all the personal drama between them that isn't to everyone's taste. This I think holds for the first two books in the AP. In the first book the boatload of NPC's is required, in the second it is highly encouraged and the players are rewarded if they are taken along.

This is true to some extent. It is indeed an AP where you can wind up with a lot of NPCs tagging along, if you like.

P Tigras wrote:
Then there is the fact that one of those NPC's is Irabeth who starts out several levels ahead of the players, has a lover as another party NPC, and is eventually promoted to the nobility where she starts giving the pc's quests in book 3. She requires a bit of judicious handling on the part of the GM, so that the pc's don't feel outshined by her extra levels in book 1, don't feel like her sidekicks (if she is placed in charge of the troops as suggested) in book 2, and don't feel like her errand-boys and girls in book 3 when she is given command of the city the players liberated and starts sending them on quests.

Uh...by the time the PCs meet Irabeth they're one level behind her, and she has standard NPC stat distribution and wealth...so that doesn't exactly make her more powerful than them, IMO (both they and she would be the same CR, rules-wise). And then the PCs gain a level and become Mythic...while she does not.

The other issues are more legitimate, but I think overstated. At no point is she given authority over the PCs, not even if in charge of the army or the city. She's not able to give them orders, only make requests. Which should ameliorate that problem quite a bit.

P Tigras wrote:
I would not call Irabeth a Mary Sue, but I do think that depending on the party, she may require careful handling by the GM, because I -can- see how she could come across as a GMPC.

That's definitely possible, but doesn't seem especially common. I certainly haven't heard vast numbers of people complaining about that aspect of her character (there've been a couple of vocal ones, in this thread especially...but not any great number of people). Which seems to leave table variance/GMing style as at least as much the reason for that as the adventure itself.

Andoran

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Auxmaulous wrote:
If presented with rational thought and discourse, yes. That isn't the case with this thread. Discussing anything in this thread is a "sky-is-yellow/sky-is-blue" style of debate - with you being part of the yellow sky crowd.

Your refusal to define what you mean by the terms you use sorta belies this claim, since without defining your terms rational discourse tends to fall by the wayside in favor of biased rhetoric. Just for the record.

As does your repeated refusal to actually engage in a calm and reasoned discussion in favor of hurling sarcasm and condescension at anyone who disagrees with you.

In short, it's possible you have a point, even a very good point that I or others would agree with, but I can't tell because you've done an exceedingly poor job of presenting it (beyond "I don't like the APs and personally dislike anyone who does." which came through loud and clear).

I'd be overjoyed if you proved me wrong and proceeded to actually engage in reasoned discourse...but that seems somewhat unlikely at this juncture.

Auxmaulous wrote:
You want me to go back an cite examples that I paraphrased in the parentheses? You said or implied them just as much as the bad DM comments. LOL.

Since you 'paraphrased' them as things I'd basically never say...yeah, that'd be good. If you weren't leaving.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Anyway - GG all.

Minds are not going to be changed, but a good..or not so good effort was made to understand each others position on the issue.

Perhaps if you'd actually continued to state and expound upon your position clearly and politely more people would've responded positively. Your initial post was much less vitriolic than later ones, and I simply asked for clarification in hopes of opening a dialogue, after all.

Andoran

Auxmaulous wrote:
On more than one occasion you deflected any issue, concern or problem away from the AP (and pushing NPCs) on to the DM. AKA - blame the victim (which is the DM and players, if they don't have a good session).

Uh...are all GMs perfect now? And literally all problems the AP's fault? Because otherwise...that's an opinion and a criticism, not condescension. Sometimes, there are bad GMs, I've had them. When the players are getting on message boards and complaining about stuff you did (especially stuff that wasn't written into the AP) that's a pretty good sign of bad GMing, as is having NPCs micromanage your PCs...something else this GM was doing according to one of their own players.

Stating that they did some bad GMing isn't any more condescending than "That cake you made? It sucked, please don't ever use that recipe again." That's critical, not condescending.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Does that cover it?

I may have missed a few quips back there (you're doing it all wrong, can't read, running the module wrong, etc).

Again....huh? Speculating that it's user error and not a hardware problem is not inherently condescending.

Because, again, criticism and condescension are not synonyms. The examples you list in parentheses? Those are indeed condescending. Which is why I don't say s~%+ like that, instead making reference to, very directly, the GM's behavior, not condescending assumptions about the reasons for it.

Andoran

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aranna wrote:
Jasnah isn't doing evil people.
B+$%!&~+. She's committing murder. Premeditated even.

Killing people who've previously raped and murdered various people while they are in the process of trying to do it again (thus making their guilt indisputable)...is probably not full-on Evil. It's not Good, but I continue to maintain it's a Neutral act.

Andoran

Aranna wrote:

Deadmanwalking, No just no.

Do a web search on "who does batman kill" and you will find a string of brutal murders committed by Batman going all the way back to the earliest issues.

Not in most continuities. But that's a side-issue.

Aranna wrote:
Ok I hadn't read the book in question so I didn't know she killed fleeing villains. THAT is a gray area. But is it gray enough to knock it outside of "good"? Debatable. They were no longer a threat to her... however they did remain a threat to all the other people in the community. They didn't surrender to be taken in for a trial did they?

Well, she didn't bother to ask...but yeah, they were still a threat to the community, and very bad people. Which is why I'd say it's Neutral and not remotely Evil.

Aranna wrote:
BUT simply dressing nice and walking down the street IS NOT BAITING! This is the same logic as "blame the victim" and I reject it angrily. She shouldn't be attacked period. Why is how I dress as a woman relevant to ANY crime against me? What she did walking down a street dressed nice in an area where violent attacks are common is more akin to Rosa Parks staying in her seat. With the exception that Rosa wasn't going to be violent in defending herself. It should be everyones right to walk safely down any street.

Again, it's about intent. I'm not talking about her dressing a particular way, or going a particular place as baiting. That is indeed victim blaming, and I am similarly upset by it.

I'm talking about her going place X wearing outfit Y specifically to draw in criminals. The issue isn't what's being worn or the place gone, but why that outfit is worn and that place is visited.

You can walk out into an area that people are killing a particular group in, dressed very obviously as a member of that group, and not be responsible for being attacked. But if you dress up that way specifically to draw an attack...that's baiting.

Aranna wrote:
Baiting would be offering to sell illegal guns or drugs to some bad guys and then arresting them when they take the deal.

No, that's entrapment. A legal concept, and not what I'm discussing at all.

Andoran

Auxmaulous wrote:
You should invest in a mirror, or go back and read some of your posts.

Such as? I'll admit I've been a bit acerbic the last couple of posts before this one. Condescension does that to me.

Aside from that, I'd be pleased to listen to which precisely of my posts you felt were condescending, and to who. That certainly wasn't my intent.

Andoran

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Auxmaulous wrote:
Can't change the mind of fan-atics so why waste my time?

Way to assume facts not in evidence, there.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Your mind was already made up going into this - why maintain the charade? So that it looks like we are having meaningful discourse and an exchange of ideas?

That's a good one.

Several of us seem to be having one. Maybe the reason you can't has to do with, well, you. And that whole condescension thing.

Andoran

Auxmaulous wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I mean, I asked for precisely that politely, what's a guy gotta do?
Maybe if you were an ally NPC?

Yes, because that's a polite way to respond to someone asking you for basic information.

And a great way to bring people around to your way of thinking! I mean, condescension is always such a wonderful way to win friends and influence people.

Andoran

GreyWolfLord wrote:

If he meant the GM, why did he include me in that bullying response?

It implies directly towards me and our group as players.

It seemed clear that wasn't the case to me, but ah well.

GreyWolfLord wrote:
As for the post, I typically don't parse so it's easier for me to respond to one big statement rather than parses.

That gets...convoluted. At least for me. Feel free to respond in one block though, I think that works for most people.

GreyWolfLord wrote:
Also I don't put spoilers normally out for no reason. I mean, if we get down to it, most of those that you list as romance options in the other thread, wouldn't really count as Romance options in what I regards as romance options...but I don't go into details or respond due to the parsing and long work on it.

That's unfortunate, your input would be appreciated over there.

GreyWolfLord wrote:

However, since you request specifics...I'll go into light detail...

** spoiler omitted **...

Hmmm. What it looks like, is that the GM tried to use the NPCs to force you to follow the plot as presented when you went off the rails. Which is not an explicit part of the AP. At all.

Them having goals? Sure. Them talking to each other? Sure. Them pressuring the PCs to do the particular stuff you mention? Not so much. And there's certainly nothing anywhere indicating one of them should force you to take everyone with you.

That said...not giving a damn what the NPCs want, not caring when people are in trouble and in need of help...why the hell were you guys playing WotR?

It's the WE ARE GOOD adventure path and your characters do not sound like they fit that mold at all...which explains a lot of dissatisfaction and unhappiness, especially if the GM kept trying to desperately hammer a square peg into a round hole, using the NPCs as the hammer.

Why in the world did you pick that adventure path in the first place?

Andoran

Aranna wrote:
I bolded the incorrect part. Unless the criminal surrenders I fail to see how she is going to bring them in for justice. And if she kills a surrendered opponent then yes this becomes evil.

Well, in the actual book she kills all but the first as they flee in terror after she casually and brutally kills the first ie: they never had a chance, she casually could've captured them, and she killed them while they ran from her.

But what happened in the book doesn't even matter. It's about intent. If your plan is "I'm going to go out and troll for muggers and see what happens." that's potentially Good...but if, as in the OP, your plan is "I'm going to go kill some criminals." That's not Good any more.

Aranna wrote:
BUT that isn't what I have read is happening here. If you kill someone in self defense that isn't evil. She isn't attacking them... they are attacking her.

True. But, again, intent. She baited them into attacking her specifically so she could kill them. Not fight, not capture, but kill. That was the plan. That...makes claims of self-defense legally valid, but morally not so much.

Aranna wrote:
Or are you somehow suggesting that it IS non-good to leave yourself vulnerable?

No, it's non-Good to walk out your door planning to flat-out kill people, generally speaking. Planning to fight people? Sure, okay. Planning to defend yourself as necessary? Totally Good. Planning to lure people into attacking you and then kill them dead? Not so Good any more.

Aranna wrote:
I don't know anything about the Punisher so using him as an example isn't effective in my case. She is targeting violent evil and that is good, as it makes society safer. If this Punisher is waiting till evil violently reveals itself and then defending against those evil people (lethally or not) then I guess he is good; but as I said I have no idea about this Punisher so he is a bad example.

The Punisher kills criminals. That's his mission in life. He absolutely might pretend to be a victim to lure them in...but that's far from his only methodology (others range from complicated manipulations, to a knife in an alley, to a sniper rifle).

Aranna wrote:
As for Batman doesn't the Dark Knight kill people too? Unless they surrender? Maybe it depends on which version of Batman you are talking about?

Uh...no. Batman never kills. It's an ironclad rule. Superman is more likely to kill people than Batman.

I'm...just gonna stop the superhero analogies now.

Aranna wrote:
On a related point; Can you do good and remain neutral? Yes. Your alignment is a big picture thing and one act or even a string of similar acts isn't necessarily going to shift that alignment. If doing good starts to define your character then a shift is warranted.

Right. Which is why I mentioned it becoming their primary goal and activity.

Andoran

Finding him should be pretty easy with just a few things (Hunter's Eye, the spell that gives you +20 Perception to find somebody, comes to mind, as does Acute Senses for another +20...). As for the Stun Vials...they're DC 20, guys. That's great at low levels, but at 10th level? I can casually make characters who only fail that on a 1.

But really, for any duel, a save-or-die caster with maxed out Initiative and Save DCs is always the way to go.

Oracle of the Heavens built to abuse Color Spray with Noble Scion of War, Reactionary, and Improved Initiative comes to mind...That'd be, what, Cha 26 for a +14 Initiative (before Items or Eldritch Heritage...both of which are easy to take), and DC 25 Will Save to avoid being screwed with Spell Focuses and Heighten Spell.

Or go Synthesist Summoner/Paladin for pure cheesy ridiculusness. Or any one of a hundred other options.

Andoran

Zhayne wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Which is another way of saying 'It's useless'.
If all you want to get out of it is some sort of mechanical benefit, then yes it's useless. If you want to use it as a role-playing guideline, then it's not useless.

And if you don't need roleplaying guidelines, because you actually roleplay, then it's useless.

The game would be better served by stripping out alignment and using that page space to actually give hints on how to roleplay. Alignment is at best training wheels, and worst an outright impediment.

Eh. Alignment isn't really necessary for PCs, I'll agree (Paladins aside..and their Code pretty well covers that aspect), though I disagree it's an impediment if handled properly (and thus keep it around, since it's easier that way).

Y'know what Alignment is great for? NPCs and monsters. If I want to know a rough outline of what kind of moral code a monster or NPC has, I can just look at their Alignment and there I am. Providing the kind of detailed moral stances you suggest (which, btw, I absolutely believe PCs and important NPCs should have) for every mook is too labor and space intensive to be a good plan. Saying "They're LN." is just so much quicker, easier, and gives an excellent basis for more detail if needed.

Heck, even for PCs, it's often a nice heads up to the GM what kind of general moral framework you're likely to be working with. At least IME. It doesn't give the details, but broad overviews are useful, too.

Andoran

Aranna wrote:
Jasnah isn't doing evil people. Really the hardest core good (Lawful Good) has been called the Crusader because they hunt down and destroy evil. This is merely an unusual tactic toward ridding the streets of violent criminals. Is it chaotic to use an unusual tactic as many here suggest? No. It is good as described. Could evil people use a similar tactic to prey upon other criminals for fun or profit? Yes. But in the case of this character who is doing this to rid the streets of violent criminals it is simply a good act.

Murdering people you could just as easily capture and bring in for trial is pretty clearly a slide in the Neutral direction, though. As is setting out to kill them, as opposed to just stopping them. That's an issue. It's not bad enough to ever make a Paladin fall, it's not enough to make a Good character stop being Good, not even if performed regularly (as long as they keep doing other Good stuff)...but neither is it an act that makes a Neutral character more Good.

A CN character who sets out to do this every night and does, making it his mission and primary goal in life, doesn't become CG. Indeed, the Punisher is a wonderful example of a guy who does precisely that. He is also rather definitively not Good aligned. Nor should he be. Which means, knda definitionally, that it can't be a Good act per se.

A Good version of this story involves more Batman, and less Punisher, IMO.

Andoran

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I don't find moral relativism a particularly convincing argument. Never have. Some things (torture, rape, and the abuse of children leap to mind) are categorically wrong. Full stop.

Pathfinder alignments are certainly an oversimplification of the way morality works, but they're a useful one (particularly for NPCs) for giving a quick shorthand for likely behaviors performed or condoned by the individuals in question. In my experience they only become problematic when the players and GM suffer a breakdown in communications...and those inevitably cause problems, Alignment system or no.

Andoran

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GreyWolfLord wrote:
What in the heck is different about my style of play? Are you insinuating that we deserve to be bullied!? WTH!? I find that incredibly...I don't know what to say...

That's clearly not what he meant. His intent was to note that other GMs do not behave like yours does (and from your description his behavior sounds like bullying)...thus making generalizing your experience based on said GM's playstyle a bit less than useful for people with GMs who don't do that kind of thing.

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Also, on an entirely separate note, I did a huge post responding to you with several spoilered commentaries on WotR characters. You never responded back. Why not? I'm certainly curious which NPCs were ordering you around and so on, and I suspect others are as well. It might give us some insight into your perspective. Please, use spoiler tags and fill us in.

Auxmaulous wrote:
No. Not NPC Mary Sue allies at least.

Still not hearing any examples of these characters from actual APs...

I mean, I asked for precisely that politely, what's a guy gotta do?

All discussion of such characters is pretty meaningless unless you give some examples of what you're talking about.

Andoran

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kBro wrote:
The Ninja is like an archetype, but it is not an archetype. It's an alternate class, and a separate thing from the rogue. You could easily replace a Ninja's Poison Use and No Trace with Trapfinding and Trap Sense with a little house ruling, but this is because they are parallel features. You can apply any Rogue archetype to the Ninja so long as you can replace the appropriate features.

Okay, here's the thing, mechanically, there are two ways this can work:

#1: Ninja is basically an archetype, and thus follows the rules for one (at least a couple of devs, plus logic say this is the case).

#2: Ninja is an entirely new class, for archetype purposes.

In neither case does what you're talking about work, due to the paragraph I cite above in the case of #1, and because it can't use Rogue Archetypes at all in the case of #2.

Can you House Rule it to work? Yes, easily. Does that mean it works that way? No, it means you made a House Rule...and suggesting builds that rely on house rules without noting that that's what you're doing is bad policy, since you're effectively telling people the game works a different way from how it really does.

Andoran

Daenar wrote:
I mostly play solo, very little in the way of tabletop gamers in my area( none that I know)So my gm and I laugh our asses off because I'm being a pretentious s@+%...to NPC's!

Oh, okay. That's entirely different. And often hilarious.

Andoran

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Been having some issues with these lately related to the logic discontinuity and differences in how a particular GM applies them.

Okay, let's hear 'em.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Knowledge local (also nobility, geography, history though these don't come up as often) - PC is in a new place that maybe he has never even heard of. But he can roll a DC=10 knowledge local check to know who is the local sheriff or a DC=20 to learn about the local thieves guild. That seems ridiculous even to me. But then another GM will say you've never been here you don't know anything. Now it is a useless skill.

Well, first I'd like to note that Knowledge (Local) is also the Knowledge skill for monster knowledge about humanoids, so that puts it into the second category as well. That said...it's a poorly named skill. What it really represents is knowledge about people and the civilized world in general. A guy with sky-high Knowledge (Local) is the one who knows the name of every every city in the Inner Sea and every major crime boss in all of them, not just the name of his home city and the nightlife there. And is similarly well informed on a lot of other subjects dealing with the basics of life and society, such as different countries' laws (though probably not details of governmental politics, which are more Knowledge - Nobility). It's also, as mentioned, a skill you can use to effectively gather information, which helps explain this.

Another way to look at it is that, as a monster knowledge skill, it tells you how humanoids and humanoid society works, making it somewhere between a psychology skill and anthropology skill, meaning that your character may not know the name of the local crime boss...but he knows where crime bosses tend to live and exactly where to go to find out that kind of information in more detail. He knows what kind of secrets powerful people hold, and can guess with eerie accuracy after hearing only a bit about one which they are hiding. All that kind of thing. Thought of this way, a lot of what Sherlock Holmes does with the classic 'Sherlock Scan' is probably just applied Knowledge (Local)...though his actual investigations are more Perception and Sense Motive.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Knowledge religion (also planes, dungeoneering, nature, and arcana) - PC can roll DC=15+CR check to learn about monsters weaknesses. How exactly is the PC supposed to know that this in particular is an advanced, feral, champion gray render with 8 levels of monk to know what abilities it has. I don't care that he rolled a 20 with a +27 skill modifier. It is a unique creature. That seems way too powerful. However, a different GM says all you can find out about it the base gray render abilities. Of course he doesn't use anything without a template and/or class levels. So it is again a virtually useless skill.

Again, these skills give in-depth knowledge about the creature in question. An advanced, feral, champion Grey Render is almost certainly not going to look like a normal grey render, nor will one who's a Monk move or act like a normal one. All those divergences from the norm are potentially obvious to someone with the skill who makes their Knowledge check.

Bear in mind also how Monster Knowledge checks actually work. If the creature in question is CR 17 (I'm not doing the math, this number is arbitrary) your DC is 32, and getting a 47 means you get 4 bits of useful information about the creature, not a full stat rundown or anything. That could easily be:

"This is a Grey Render, they are usually solitary predators, just intelligent enough to be able to speak, with most speaking Giant. Most are relatively peaceful unless provoked, and usually have a herd of herbivores they protect viciously. They're very nasty in melee combat, but have no particular defenses against spells. They are also notably and unusually good at destroying objects. This one in particular seems larger and more savage than usual and thus likely more dangerous, and, as a separate issue, it moves in a strangely studied manner."

That's actually debatably six or eight pieces of information, there, and nothing a sufficiently skilled observer couldn't perceive. And I can add a couple more in pretty readily, too.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
No one ever knows the wrong information. You either know the information with absolute certainty or you know nothing. Doesn't it seem more likely (especially with the fantastical and rare) that the legends or stories you read have the wrong information rather than nothing at all. This seems like a situation where the GM should role in secret and if the role fails by a bunch "You have heard in the legends that the Slurgimeisteesh are very resistant to all but silver weapons" (though it is really DR 10/cold iron). But I've never heard of any GM doing that. And every player I've talked to said that would be cheating, unfair, mean, offensive, etc... if the GM did that.

Honestly? It's only unfair if you don't warn them about it first...as long as you do it on a failed roll. A successful roll should never be worse than a failed one (which wrong information is)...but few players will object if you tell them, prior to starting a game (not game session, a new game) "If you fail a Knowledge roll by 5 or more, you'll not only know nothing, but get incorrect information." Few will object to that, and if you don't trust them not to metagame you can take over Monster Knowledge rolls just like you presumably have Perception rolls. It's a House Rule, but a perfectly reasonable one.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
No, I don't know how to resolve any of this. Any of you have headaches related to knowledge skill checks? What have you done?

Nah, I generally feel they work fine and make Knowledgeable characters feel useful and important, without notably breaking the game, which is a good place for them to be.

Andoran

I'd personally be tempted to go Cavalier. The Horse Master Feat (taken as your 6th level Cavalier Feat right before going into Hellknight, or your 7th level Feat on your 2nd level of Hellknight depending on preference) lets you maintain Animal Companion progression, the skill set seems better, you'd get a couple of Challenges per day...

Go with the Gendarme Archetype for theme and a couple of bonus Feats, and maybe Beast Rider for a better Mount (this'd necessitate buying Heavy Armor Proficiency, but might be worth it anyway...Tiger riding Hellknight? Yeah, that sounds cool), and you seem pretty well set to mess people up.

Several of the Orders (Lion, Star, and Dragon leap to mind) are very solid thematically for a Hellknight as well.

Feats would probably mostly be the same, though a mounted combat Feat or two wouldn't hurt.

Andoran

DM Sothal wrote:

Ah!

Thanks.

You're very welcome. Happy to be of assistance. :)

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