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Half-Orc

Davor's page

1,435 posts. Pathfinder Society character for Manijin.


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Osirion

It depends on your Intelligence modifier. Yes, for the most part, EVERYONE will choose their one class as their favored class, and get to choose between a single hit point or skill rank as a bonus at every level.

Characters that wish to multiclass, however, or plan on taking a prestige class, don't get this benefit. An Eldritch Knight will only get that benefit for his caster or martial levels, unless he's a half-elf, in which case he gets it for both, but not his prestige class levels.

Osirion

Inquisitor is one of those glorious classes that can be built as anything, is loaded with flavor, including it's archetypes, all of which are effective whilst being flavorful. It balances versatility with power, utility with combat readiness, and skill with durability. You could potentially build a full-caster Inquisitor and have him remain an effective member of the party, depending on your archetype and focus.

Inquisitor, much like the Bard, is the paragon of what a class should be able to do solo, as well as with a group.

Osirion

Well, there are several archetypes that might have helped with that at some point, but we're likely past that. Just pick up a bow or crossbow and hope that the few blasty spells you get will suffice.

If your DM allows it, consider picking up the Wordstriker or Thundercaller archetypes.

Osirion

Tels wrote:

Dwarf Favored Class Bonus: Oracle: Reduce the penalty for not being proficient with one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the oracle is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat with that weapon.

Pretty sure he posted an alternative Dwarf build on the first page. As it stands, the reasoning for proficiency is that even the proficiency feats (Simple, Martial, Exotic Weapon Proficiency) don't actually grant proficiency, they just remove the non-proficiency penalty. Logically, this means if you don't take the non-proficiency penalty, you are considered proficient.

That makes sense. Best argument I've heard for it. Cool. Have fun, rock throwers.

Osirion

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Davor wrote:

I hate to burst people's bubbles, but you can't take Weapon Focus: Rock.

Stone Giants have a special ability that lets them attack with rocks, but the rules explicitly state that monsters are proficient with any weapons in their stat blocks, regardless of what those weapons may be. It's why Skeletons are proficient with Scimitars despite nothing about them granting proficiency.

Sorry if that was brought up already, but it's late, and I'm too sleepy to read 5 pages of posts.

That conjecture was brought up and debunked many times already.

I went and read everything, and I don't really see how. You COULD take Weapon Focus: Rock if you picked up two levels of Ranger, or picked any class that got you weapon focus regardless of prerequisites, and you can take Catch Off Guard to ignore non-proficiency penalties, but you still don't have proficiency with rocks.

This means that you can't take weapon specialization. Heck, you can't even throw sling bullets because, by their description, they're made of metal and can't be made of stone. You'd have to get the weird kind of sling bullets that have stone in the middle and cloth on the outside. >_>

Don't get me wrong. I love this idea and would like it to work by RAW, but there is not a thing I can see that grants actual proficiency. But then, that really only matters for the purpose of taking Weapon Specialization, so... yeah.

Osirion

I hate to burst people's bubbles, but you can't take Weapon Focus: Rock.

Stone Giants have a special ability that lets them attack with rocks, but the rules explicitly state that monsters are proficient with any weapons in their stat blocks, regardless of what those weapons may be. It's why Skeletons are proficient with Scimitars despite nothing about them granting proficiency.

Sorry if that was brought up already, but it's late, and I'm too sleepy to read 5 pages of posts.

Osirion

Well, he's a fire beetle. That just SCREAMS sorcerer with the Elemental (Fire) bloodline. Most beetles just get glowy butts. Squish shoots EXPLODING DEATH BALLS AND SCORCHING RAYS out of his.

The only problem is that Squish likely has terrible Charisma, which means that the Sage bloodline is probably the only one he could viably take. You could make him kind of a Light sorcerer: Taking spells that banish darkness, provide light for the party, etc. Maybe even a few illusion spells (I mean, Glitterdust is practically MADE for this guy. Yeah, it's Conjuration, but still).

Osirion

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You don't even need words to sing in the first place. A language dependent effect depends on you needing a language, which singing doesn't.

Someone who has spent their life mastering singing to make it into music could certainly weave their spells into their music. Heck, I can speak in recitative spontaneously if I feel like it. I imagine some mythological figure that represents the magic of music could absolutely pull that kind of thing off.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's a Fighter archetype that does that.

Osirion

It's also worth mentioning that there are several bard archetypes that address some of these issues. The Flame Dancer adds several standard damage nukes to the bard spell list, and the Thundercaller can use Bardic Performance to cast Sound Burst, an AoE minor damage/stun with added scaling damage, unique to the bard.

Osirion

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Bards are the best.

You're just jealous because they don't need you anymore. /all bard party

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

OH MY GOSH.

Less QQ, More PewPew.

Why don't you just play the character you want to play and not worry about someone else being a tad more powerful? An extra +1 here or there is NOT the end of the world. It's 5% extra success rate. Just play your character, and optimize your concept within the confines of the system. Don't feel bad because Johnny Munchkin-boots occasionally puts out a few extra points of damage.

Osirion

Meh. People make a big deal about Tieflings and Aasimars being OP, but the truth is that the bonuses you get from the races are so minute that they're likely to not make enough of a difference to matter. True, they have some unique racial stat bonuses, but that's hardly grounds for decrying them.

5 race points, in the grand scheme of things, assuming they're not spent in a power-gamey, silly fashion, will not make any difference AT ALL at the table. Don't worry about it.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I may echo what Psion-Psycho said, but he's right. If your idea of tanking is protecting your squishies from the bad guys, then without an aggro mechanic you need to either: A) Make your allies unhittable (through buffs, etc.) or B) Prevent the enemy from reaching your allies, or acting at all.

This means that classes with easy access to stuns and short-term crowd control (Command Spell, Sound Burst Spell, etc.) can work quite well, but they tend to have limited resources.

On the other hand, you can substitute ANY attack for certain Combat Maneuvers, specifically trip. This is why the Reach Fighter is usually considered the best party defender (I don't necessarily mean the class Fighter, just any Reach weapon-using martial character).

Let's look at something like a Human Lore Warden archetype Fighter, for example.

With a reach weapon and Armor Spikes (or unarmed strikes if you feel like taking the feat), you threaten a 10' area around yourself. That's pretty big, and can get even bigger if an ally can bump you up to Large size (a 20' area!). In addition, you get Combat Expertise for free (awesome), so you can focus on having high Strength and Dexterity for your maneuvers, which get further boosted by taking obvious feats like Improved Trip and Improved Dirty Trick. These ensure that, while enemies may not FOCUS on you, they sure can't get to anyone else.

There are a number of other ways to do it, some much more effective than I've listed, but my point is that this is the best way to keep your allies safe aside from playing a magical buffer or crowd controller. It's about the closest approximation to a traditional "tank" that you can get.

Osirion

People care WAY too much about a cavalier's mount.

One of the first cavalier's I ever played was a halfling dual-wielder with a small-cat mount. He was awesome. Don't worry about all that silly mounted combat stuff. Consider it a small bonus to an otherwise versatile and awesome class.

Osirion

Actually, I don't think that you add your Strength Modifier to the damage roll. I realize that that's more of a RAI than RAW thing, but the spell specifically mentions that you add your Caster Level to the damage rolls, which seems to be in place of the Ability Modifier. That's actually pretty legit, as it means you'd be getting roughly 8-10 damage from caster level alone per hit. I may have to take a look at this spell in the future.

Osirion

Fun fact: This puts your average running speed at about ~133 MPH.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I will say this: The options you choose for your character feel like they carry a LOT of weight. I have a group I'm running right now with two rogues: A thief and an Assassin, and they're vastly different in terms of abilities, both in combat and outside of it, while still retaining the core feel of the rogue. I REALLY like that aspect of D&D next.

Osirion

I think what you're forgetting, OP, is that any item's price is based off of the materials required to make it. This is reflected if you look at the rules for crafting, as the time required to craft is based on the rarity and value of the materials.

A cold iron Horsechopper, when reduced to its base components, will produce about 10 GP worth of bits, including, but not limited to, Cold Iron.

Osirion

Well, I've never had a city like this before, but it's certainly not out of the question. First of all, if wizards exist in this world, it would make sense for guards to check for a spellbook or familiar. Barring that, I would imagine that most of the guards in this town might carry an item that allows them to detect magic in a person (a unique variant of the Detect Magic spell), which "pings" someone as a spellcaster, at which point said person could be issued an armband or something with an anti-magic field on it. That's just off the top of my head, though.

Osirion

If a paladin lies, he falls.

Is lying evil? It doesn't really matter what we think. He falls.

Should a paladin lie? I think not, and not under any circumstances, but I have a very black/white philosophy when it comes to the nature of good and evil, and really that's all that this thread is about.

If you believe lying is evil, you'll probably go with the side that believes that Paladins don't lie, or they fall if they do. If you don't believe lying is evil, you probably are okay with all but the most blatant, obvious lies against the code.

That's really, I think, all it boils down to. >_>

Osirion

OP, you need to stop scrubbing up when it comes to bard. NOBODY I've EVER met plays a bard like that. Look at the class design: Decent weapon/armor proficiencies, medium BAB, best buffs in the freaking game, good at skills, good at spells, good at EVERYTHING. While the fighter is being torn limb from limb in the front lines, I'm making him better at fighting while chopping a guy in half with my OWN greatsword, then I walk over and disable a trap, stun a group of enemies with a bit of magic THUNDER, turn the party invisible, and then bring the fighter back from the brink of death, all while looking FABULOUS.

On that note, I hate fighters. They have a bit of versatility, but they're mostly just boring to me, and typically have NO utility outside of "I hit it really hard with the pointy end of the stick".

Osirion

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I just got to read my PHB for 5e today, and I have to say that I'm pretty pleased. The classes all feel pretty unique, with Clerics, Bards, and Monks jumping out as having some pretty cool stuff they can do, though everyone feels pretty unique. The rules are REALLY simple, and I like that. I don't have to go online and look up the EXACT rules for how distance factors into perception and stealth checks, how X works in Y circumstance, but not in others. It's all highly simplified and up to DM interpretation, and it's about dang time.

I haven't played yet, but just looking over the book it seems solid, simple, and fun.

Osirion

Golarion will always be my favorite campaign setting, and I can imagine myself setting many a 5e game there.

Osirion

Which is basically all I've said anyways. Actions = Alignment.

Osirion

I'll try tackling this from a slightly different perspective.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with, or otherwise suffering from, a personality disorder, the disorder must be negatively affecting the person enough to cause extreme difficulty or inability to function in normal society.

For example, I'm considered borderline ADHD. One of the primary factors in my non-diagnosis is the fact that my symptoms do not compromise my ability to function normally. The same would hold true for this imagined character.

Let's say you want to make a "sociopathic" Paladin. IF the condition is strong enough that the symptoms of sociopathy are prevalent to the point of making the Paladin unable to function normally in society, that means he is regularly committing acts which would likely go against the Paladin code, and thus would probably never attain Paladinhood in the first place.

On the other hand, if the character in question has some measure of control of his own actions, and regularly decides against his own thoughts and towards better actions for good, he is overcoming his disability and is acting as a Paladin should, which means that he isn't really a ""sociopath", because it hasn't prevented him from functioning normally. He might have those kinds of thoughts, but so long as he decides to be a Paladin IN SPITE of them, he should be fine.

Osirion

Bacon666 wrote:

Sure you can... You need to:

1. Define what you call sociopath
2. Define LG alignment
3. Combine the 2.

I could see a LG char as the lawful stupid paladin, who see evil, and then kill it. He doesn't understand that his own action is evil, but deem every body else stupid because they cannot understand that he's right

He does follow his own code religiosly (lawful)
He does try to do good by eradicating evil (good)
He's definitely a sociopath
He doesn't work well in any group!

It doesn't matter what the Paladin thinks is good, or whether or not he's "trying". Good is good. If he isn't, he falls.

Osirion

True. I said that because the character in question was becoming an elemental, and elementals can take on a variety of viable spellcasting forms and retain the ability to speak.

Osirion

Yup. Polymorph effects only affect equipment. You keep spellcasting, BAB, etc. It's pretty darn sweet.

Osirion

Davor wrote:

One thing that's important to remember is that there isn't really any such thing as a "neutral" action in Pathfinder. The alignment system hinges on a rigid good/evil and lawful/chaotic spectrum, where Neutral characters are characters that regularly exhibit the behaviors of the different alignments. A Neutral character doesn't take predominantly neutral actions; he takes a relatively even split between good and evil actions. He may lie from time to time, but he exhibits kindness towards strangers. He would sacrifice his life for his friends and family at the drop of a hat, but also has a pattern of ruthlessness regarding those that threaten these same people.

This is what neutrality is. Desecrating a corpse is evil, but a person's alignment is determined by more than one action. This is also why most adventurers tend to fall towards neutral: They regularly kill other humanoids, but also tend to protect the innocent and help the needy. Hence the neutrality. You don't look at an alignment and say that all the actions performed by a subset of these creatures must, therefore, be of that alignment: You look at an alignment and say that the actions, good and evil both, performed by the creatures are the cause of the alignment.

Osirion

One thing that's important to remember is that there isn't really any such thing as a "neutral" action in Pathfinder. The alignment system hinges on a rigid good/evil and lawful/chaotic spectrum, where Neutral characters are characters that regularly exhibit the behaviors of the different alignments. A Neutral character doesn't take predominantly neutral actions; he takes a relatively even split between good and evil actions. He may lie from time to time, but he exhibits kindness towards strangers. He would sacrifice his life for his friends and family at the drop of a hat, but also has a pattern of ruthlessness regarding those that threaten these same people.

This is what neutrality is. Desecrating a corpse is evil, but a person's alignment is determined by more than one action. This is also why most adventurers tend to fall towards neutral: They regularly kill other humanoids, but also tend to protect the innocent and help the needy. Hence the neutrality. You don't look at an alignment and say that all the actions performed by a subset of these creatures must, therefore, be of that alignment: You look at an alignment and say that the actions, good and evil both, performed by the creatures are the cause of the alignment.

Osirion

I forgot to mention the fact that the single level in Cleric also gets you access to some 1st level spells and domain abilities, which could potentially be great. Shield of faith is an awesome first level spell for giving yourself more staying power, and you can pre-cast it so it will definitely last an encounter. Protection from Evil or Chaos would likewise be an excellent choice, and there are a whole slew of situational spells (Marid's Mastery, Murderous Command, Forbid Action, Sanctuary, Weapons Against Evil) that could be potential beneficial throughout multiple levels of gaming, some even through the mid levels.

Osirion

Well, with rolls like that, you could build basically ANYTHING and succeed. It really depends on what you want to do, and the order you select.

If you wanted to be an all-out offensive beast, you could go with a single two-handed weapon, pick the Order of the Cockatrice, 18 Strength, 18 Constitution, other stats wherever, and just wreck things.

Alternatively, you could take a slightly different route and go for a single big turn, dual-wielding strategy. 18 Strength, 18 Charisma, 15 Dexterity, two-weapon fighting, Order of the Lion. Challenge grants bonus damage, and the Order of the Lion abilities are AWESOME if you have high Charisma.

Even MORE alternatively, if you're feeling particularly creative, you could take two levels in Paladin or one level in Cleric, put the 18s in Strength and Charisma again, and take the Order of the Star to get continual progression in Lay on Hands or Channel Positive Energy. It's not the best offensive option, but with those stats you'll still hit like a truck, and you'll have a little bit of party support. If you can deal with the Paladin code, you also get to Smite Evil 1/day (which is AWESOME), super-boost your saving throws, and can even heal yourself as a swift action, all while still being primarily a Samurai.

I recommend taking the Sword Saint archetype for all of these options, btw. Mounts can be tricky to use, and if you're a new player you may want to minimize the complexity of your character. Sword Saint gets rid of all that mount stuff in favor of better early damage, so the trade-off is pretty obvious.

Osirion

DrDeth wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
(...)However, if there's already a tank in the party, the melee cleric player should discuss his role with the party.
...Why is there a problem to have a battle cleric in a party that already has a melee character?

Roles. The ideal 4 member party has a tank, a arcane caster (battlefield control is best but...) a divine caster and a skilled person.

Having multiple tanks usually means one of the other roles isn't filled.

But that doesn't mean you could not have a melee cleric as your tank and still a another martial class:
Melee cleric (tank), archer ranger, Life oracle, Wizard: is a nice combo.

If I had a melee cleric I'd want another class that could do some back up buff/healing, like a bard, inquisitor or alchemist.

The idea of roles is precisely why tabletop RPG's are better than video games RPG's in every way: WE DON'T NEED THEM.

The most successful games I've ever seen have defied role constraints, mostly because the players built their characters to be good at things, not to fill niche roles. You can build the tankiest fighter there is, but that doesn't make it a strong character: a strong character contributes to the party on a number of fronts, not just one. This is why you see classes like Cleric, Bard, Ranger, Druid, Wizard, etc. succeed so frequently at the hands of a skilled player: they have versatility built into them that allows the to succeed in a variety of circumstances.

Filling a single role in a 4-man party is silly. Being the absolute best possible person in your role means you suck at everything else, which means you're just going to drag your group down when it comes to other tasks. Don't be a "tank": be the frontline expert with tactical military knowledge and a bit of a scout's eye. Don't be a "divine spellcaster/healer": be a party face, combat support, field medic all rolled into one. The second you start putting people in roles, you get 4e syndrome, where you start reducing character options to fit iconic standards.

Osirion

Bard is absolutely OP. I'm just surprised more people don't see it. Decent proficiencies in armor/weapons, medium BAB, best party buffing in the game (save maybe an Evangelist Cleric... maybe), excellent selection of skills which can be made even broader, a solid spell list which includes a mixture of support, utility, and even damage and crowd control spells.

If the name of the game is to be good at things, then the bard is the best, because while he may not be the best at one thing, he's good at everything.

Also, regarding the Weird Words thing: If it didn't require a standard action, it would almost be acceptable written that way, it's APPALLING.

Osirion

The #1 problem with healing is that healing is primarily reactionary. Reactionary actions will never be as safe as proactive actions (i.e., defeating your opponents before they can defeat you). Now, that doesn't mean that healing is "bad", it just means that preventing damage in the first place is more effective and important.

I remember in the first Guild Wars video game one of the most popular builds for Monk (the game's healer class) was the Protection Monk, which focused on constantly buffing allies with spells that directly prevented and reduced incoming damage. It was liked because some nukes hit so hard they could almost one-shot people, which meant that someone missing any amount of health could go down almost instantly. With protection abilities, you could cut the nuke in half or more, where you would have had to hope that a party member didn't drop before.

This principle is why combat healing is generally rejected. It's not a BAD thing, but the name of the game is "outnumber your enemies" and "have more HP than they do", and the easiest way to have more HP is to never lose it in the first place.

This is why protection spells are generally the best form of "healing". Shield of Faith, Command, Sanctuary, Protection from Energy, and the like are all the safest, most consistent ways of preventing damage, and some (like Command) can directly counter the damage an enemy could have inflicted in the first place.

tl;dr

Healing has its place, but damage prevention is better than reactionary action 100% of the time.

Osirion

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it's important to realize that warm temperatures are very dependent on where you've spent most of your life. I've walked for hours in 100+ degree weather with regular water and been fine. On the other hand, France had one of its worst heat waves in decades relatively recently, getting up to the upper 80s, and they had hundreds of DEATHS caused by it.

Typical temperature can influence things, and unless most adventurers spend regular time in these environments, it actually makes a bit of sense.

Osirion

Zathyr wrote:
Personally I do think that instruments do have their place, situationally. For performances like Inspire Courage where people just need to hear the performance, traditional "instruments of war" like drums, flute, bagpipes, and the like can carry across much larger distances than even a well trained voice. There really aren't rules for it in-game, but personally if I were GMing I'd take it into consideration whenever distance is a concern. I can hear bagpipes from about a mile away. Singing, not so much.

As a professional vocalist, I found this post intriguing. It's not exactly a COMMON occurance, but: Farthest Distance Traveled by the Human Voice

I could see magically infused singing working like that, even if it is a whistle language.

Osirion

Oi. /facepalm

PFSRD Strength Bonus wrote:
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

Lay on Hands is not a melee or thrown weapon, therefore you do not add your Strength Modifier.

Osirion

No, because a Melee Attack and a Melee Touch Attack are not the same thing.

Osirion

Well, you're right about players being big stinky cheaterfaces, but you have to remember that your job, first and foremost as a GM, is to make sure the game is fun. If the players are having fun, and you're having fun, then all is good.

We all want to be the cool GM, but when a player comes up and insists that Spellstrike hits touch AC, or that their 200+ damage character at level 10 is totally reasonable, you have to put your foot down for the group.

Osirion

I think creating a character based on in-order stat rolls is a really fun idea, and if I found a group that all agreed to do it I'd think it would be fun, but I wouldn't like being in a group where there wasn't a consensus on how attributes should be obtained.

Osirion

For those of you that are curious, this movie was directed by the same director that did the film "Monsters".

If you haven't seen it, go find it and watch it once. You may hate me for it, but you should find it rather illuminating.

Osirion

Well, if you don't want to go the Strength route, then Dervish Dance is probably your best bet. If you're going Dex ANYWAYS, you may as well add it to your damage. You could get an Agile weapon, but why worry about it?

Osirion

Two-hander is definitely the way to go. I've played a Greatsword-wielding scout, and the amount of damage you can put out in a single hit is just ROCKING. I never got high enough for it, but I was eventually planning on grabbing the Vital Strike line when I could, because MOAR D6'S.

Sure, later on your damage isn't AS impressive, but if you can manage to move/charge into a flank, you're basically guaranteed your hit, even with Power Attack, especially once you get the Menacing enchantment on your weapon. You might not do as much damage as the dedicated combat characters in your group, but rogues never have. However, in situations where Full Attacks are difficult to set up, you'll be able to toss out consistently high damage.

Osirion

I have had SO many players dis Bards and Cavaliers.

One of the reasons I want to actually get to play is to prove these people wrong. Bards and Cavaliers are AWESOME, so long as you play to their strengths: for bards, that's buffing your buddies while being awesome at everything, and for Cavalier's, it's being awesome frontliners/buffers who also happen to have some mounted abilities.

Both of these are solid party faces/combatants that have abilities which scale off of the primary face stat: Charisma.

Osirion

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That's all good and well, guys, but comparing literal interpretation of the Paladin Code to Judaic Law is really, REALLY wrong on multiple levels, mostly because the Paladin code is designed with a different goal in mind:

The Paladin code exists not as a path to righteousness, salvation, or atonement, but rather as a strict set of rules which reward the paladin with supernatural, awesome power. This isn't some form of making the Paladin a better person (though, to be fair, following the code would set some of the habits of good people), it's a trade of sacrificing certain behaviors and practices and receiving power for your sacrifice. The Paladin code isn't a moral code, it's a code signifying when he does and does not receive his power, and the cost for it.

Osirion

Jaelithe wrote:

Adhering so firmly to a code that you defeat the purpose for which the code has been put in place is not only monolithic, it's asinine.

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

You'd never guess from my posts, but that's exactly why I think that Paladins make terrible paladins. Their power, that is their ability to defend the righteous and absolve the wicked, is dependent entirely upon their adherence to an incredibly strict code that, if broken, causes them to lose so much of their ability to be a paladin that they're useless.

That's why Fighters and Rogues (and Martial Artist monks)are the best paladins. 100% effective, 100% of the time, and if they make a mistake or slip up they don't get crippled.

Osirion

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Davor wrote:
Why wouldn't the paladin just knock him out via normal means? Or at the very least attempt to restrain his comrade?

It's a hypothetical. One of those "Well, if you had to choose between A and B..." things.

Besides, the point is, why would either of those be morally superior or more honorable than using a tranquilizer gun?

I realize it was a hypothetical. I just find hypotheticals to be silly things. :P

Really, what matters is whether or not tranquilizers are considered "poison". The game makes no differentiation between various substances which can harm the body, either by making one unconscious, draining attributes, or causing various status afflictions (i.e., sickened), so it's difficult to say. In the real world, something like an anaesthetic would be different from a venom or toxin, and whether or not something like that would be considered a poison in Pathfinder is kind of strange. It would likely end up being ruled as working like a poison, but that gets into weirdness where the rules don't reflect reality very well in regards to lumping things together.

Osirion

Why wouldn't the paladin just knock him out via normal means? Or at the very least attempt to restrain his comrade?

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