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Because they were?
"but the bloodline abilities are just better than existing rage powers"
At least this is a subjective matter. The bloodrager is not STRICTLY better; it is better because those abilities are perceived to be better. I find this to be the case of many comparisons, however.
For example, I prefer arcane casters that cast a lot of buffs and utility spells that don't require SR checks. This does not make those spells strictly better than blasting spells. Just better in my estimation.
Of course, martials are more locked in with what they can do than casters are, but there is a large diversity of builds through feats and things like rage powers.
"How long do you think it'll take for this to turn into a paladin hate thread? If we can't go at least 25 posts (real ones, not posts just to get the post count up because I said that) without an anti-paladin rant, then I'll make a new aasimar paladin, just to cheese those people off. :P"
Just to point it out: it's a summoner/gunslinger hate thread. Myth busted :)
I thought it was funny. But I don't NEED such a spell in homebrew. The GM retains their godly powers in homebrew. I just empirically determine the party's TRUE APL which could be anything from APL-2 ish to APL+5 ish.
" to be honest EVERY class is invalidated by the existence of summoners. "
I've seen animal companions that your typical eidolon would struggle to even hit. Who's the real melee monster? Protip: the one that gets barding to stack on top of their huge natural AC bonus.
Another problem with summoners: who wears the cloak of resistance? The other one is going to get hosed by save or suck spells quite often. Sharing the item slots is a much bigger deal than I realized before playing one.
I'll take a Sylvan sorcerer over a summoner any day of the week.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Rogues have poor fort and will saves. That's one foot in the coffin at mid level right there. I don't think it's accurate at all to call rogues "just fine" from a balance perspective.
And yes, let's not derail.
Well, it DOES irritate me that the rogue got dumped on so badly. At least this isn't a competitive game like Warhammer or something. If people enjoy playing rogues, flawed as they are, then rogues are still doing that right.
I guess the ultimate litmus test will be the advanced class guide. But I don't really think that the classes they have rolled out since the CRB, as a group, are more powerful than the core classes.
The general options provided by splat books are where I think most of the creep comes from. For example, the CRB has no solutions to incorporeal as efficient as ghost salts.
I think plenty of base classes still have plenty of punch: cleric, wizard, druid, paladin, bard, etc.
Again, rogue has been invalidated since archaeologist bard came out. No one cared then, why should we now?
Fighter is largely invalidated in PFS because of the ubiquity of evil NPCs that become paladin smite fodder. And because of easily-accessed pets whose stats are too high.
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Power creep in hard to stop, but notice that SOME core classes are not being invalidated. The ones that were designed well to begin with. Rogue and all its derivatives are tainted with a virus called teh suck.
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I just don't get it when people complain that eidolons are more powerful than animal companions. The eidolon is the main point of being a summoner, while every class that uses an animal companion gets them as a secondary feature. I would be increadily disapointed in the summoner class if the eidolon was any weaker than it currently is.
This. This ^ 10. I personally don't think the gap is large enough, but mainly because I think animal companions are far too strong. Who needs my level 7 fighter? We've got a cat!
"1. They almost never keep track of summoning notes, as such they often bog the game down.
2. Eidolons are horribly powerful in the hands of a minorly competent summoner. If you know how to build your Eidolon, its incredibly obnoxious, and deffinitly more powerful than most animal companions.
3. Access to feats to add more power to their eidolon while their eidolon ALSO gains access to feats."
This is also true for druids, animal domain clerics, mad dog barbarians, and sylvan sorcerers. Animal companions get large size for free, and have access to monster feats. I honestly don't see the difference between an eidolon that eats a scenario and an animal companion that eats a scenario. Except the fact that the druid can fill the table with summons on top of the animal companion. So the druid is actually guilty of #5 on top of numbers 1-3.
The magus is pretty weak sauce compared to the gunslinger and pet classes. Also, many dubious magus builds are built around a dubious feat: dervish dance. Being forced to two-weapon fight is inherently limiting, in my opinion.
Good, because NPCs have a lot of bad karma to make up for in PFS. Plenty of dangerous fights with monsters, but NPCs have a tendency to get rofl stomped. I guess the bottom line is that it is possible for monsters to be inaccurately priced in terms of CR, but that's not really possible for NPCs. I think NPCs need a boost vis a vis monsters.
"Often encounters get limited by map size in Society play. This makes it difficult to design encounters with effected ranged participants"
Really? Doesn't stop all the archery builds from murderizing the typical scenario. I'm still waiting for an NPC with access to fickle winds, fly, and ranged weapons.
For ranged NPCs, just photocopy some of the archery builds you see PCs use.
Okay, I surrender in the cheese wars.
Not pouncing quadrupeds. I have a summoner with a bipedal Eidolon who will be using manufactured weapons, and animal companions make that character look stupidly ineffective.
I'm not sure what there is to disagree about. Sure, auras that force saving throws vs will are decent against animal companions, but the "attack anything" trick (at least with every GM I've played with) overcomes all other concerns about being animal.
Yeah, eidolons don't have these problems, but eidolons aren't available to cleric, sorcerers, barbarians, and rangers.
People keep telling me this, but it doesn't seem to work out in practice. Level 7 is when many animals get their free size upgrade and get a huge STR boost. That seems to help a lot.
Maybe. But animals can power attack with their enormous strength stat and just power through it. I can make the same argument for multi-attacking eidolons, too.
Page of spell knowledge is pretty cheap for a summoner, considering he never has to go above 6th level prices on it.
Fair enough. Please note that I'm not denying that the summoner is a very powerful class: it is. However, the ability of many classes to access the animal companion, and the animal companion's very generous advancement table make it more abusive in my book. By a nose, if you will.
If other classes had access to the eidolon, I would 100% agree. But summoners can't compete with clerics and sorcerers with full-powered animal companions.
At the very least, boon companion should be banned.
I wouldn't remove a class, but I would remove animal companions. 100% pure unadulterated cheese. Classes with access to animal companions are worse than summoners in my experience, because the class with the animal is almost always better than the summoner, a life support class for the eidolon. I can get a full-powered sorcerer with a full-powered animal. Yeah....
"and they are much more powerful than a Durid's Animal Companion."
Not really. That's the sad part. And the summoner has to share equipment slots. The druid doesn't. The animal companions gets a free size increase. Eidolons have to pay. The druid can wild shape and summon additional creatures while their pet is active. The summoner has to specifically learn summon monster to do that and sacrifice a precious spell known. And can't wild shape.
Bottom line line is that I can fill the table with summons with a mid-level druid, which is automatic flanking for my pet and flanking for many of the summoned creatures. Your typical summoner can't do anything like this since they banned master summoner.
"In all the PFS tables I've been at, the class has been the most responsible for the "unhappy face" worn by fellow PCs when they are sitting next to a summoner with a souped up eidolon, especially at low levels."
Animal companions for me. There's nothing worse than having newer players completely shown up by a cat. Even worse, experienced players' characters shown up by a cat. Both have happened. I think most Ohio players are just kinda numb to it now.
I know I am but one small voice in the gallery, but I applaud this move. Shaking up organized play is necessary to keep it interesting. Tieflings and Aasimars do have mechanical advantages, and I have seen more of them than most core non-human races. I doubt that was the intent when these races were opened up and I fully support management's decision to restrict these races.
Mark Seifter wrote:
It depends on the number of enemies around, but I've definitely seen daylight dispel wars work to the PCs' advantage. Typically it takes a higher percentage of the enemies' actions to down the daylight than it does for the PCs to put it back up. For instance, I've seen prepared PCs cripple the damage rate of a small group of babaus because the babaus were forced to go for a roughly 50/50 dispel chance to bring the light level back down to what they preferred, thus losing 1 or 2 babau actions each round to the PCs' 1 action (and they had more PCs than babaus too).
First off, babaus don't even have deeper darkness, so all you need is regular old darkvision. Tieflings and Aasimars laugh at them. Secondly, babaus might have dispel magic, but most other critters can only dispel with darkness spells, which means they have to touch. Which is a losing proposition.