Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 333 posts (334 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 5 Organized Play characters. 3 aliases.
Since they move away from elemental dragons (metallic/Chromatic) to go for spell tradition dragons, this is going to affect the kobolds, dragon sorcerer and the barbarian sorcerer in the new remastered book since the core dragons won't be element based anymore.
This shows that the remaster probably will have a whole lot of ripple effect in the new remastered class, even those that do not get a deep rework.
I would like to cancel my current subscription. I wish I could continue to support Paizo directly but unfortunately the shipping cost for Canada is too high and with what happened to my last subscription, I cannot justify it.
I currently have 8 addresses associated with my account, but 7 of them are old addresses that shouldn't be used anymore.
For some unknown reason, it seems like when I re-subscribed to the Lost Omen line, it selected by default a very old address of mine (hasn't been used in more than 7-8 years) instead of the newer address where I already received numerous products and had used as a subscriber address before.
I am probably not going to be able to retrieve those physical copies, and I would like for all of my addresses to be deleted except the one that is currently the default in order to prevent another issue like this.
- The new Sorcerer feat that allows heightening all bloodline spells for free is going to put a lot of pressure on bloodline spell list, and the more I think about it, the more it feels like a bad solution. Some bloodlines will have multiple (H) spells when others will have none. It would be better to grant as many additionnal use of spontaneous heightening than the number of bloodline spell you currently have access to, these being fixed possibly (And give this as a class ability, not as a feat that everyone will take because it is necessary)
- Please, stop saying that wizards are only good for 15 minutes adventure day. 2E made the cantrips really good, and can now be seen as an alternative to weapons, if you burn all of your spells in one combat that is because you decided to burn everything for one combat, it's not the system's fault. Spellcasters must act in moderation and know when to unleash their spell and when not to.
- With the new Cleric having CHA usages of Channel, I'm wondering if this shouldn't be merged with their spell points... (Spells points being CHA+WIS possibly) I really liked that in one of the playtest I ran as a DM, I had a player with 10 Wisdom, and high Con/Str/Cha. He still performed nicely as a cleric since he could channel nicely, but he was a great addition to the front line at the same time.
- Some don't like the reactive Paladin, but the one I witnessed as a DM was really great. He had lots of opportunities to "save" his teammates by interupting an attack, and I think that the new version is quite nice as well. Yes he won't be able to "cancel" the ennemy attack, but giving DR is quite nice, specially with the new "within 15 feet" rule. My player really liked his paladin as well, since he felt important to the team by protecting them, while it isn't as offensive as the 1E paladin, it feels to me (and my players) that this new protector role feels great.
I wasn't able to playtest that much but here is my opinion :
Thanks for the changes to the Paladin!
Why do you put book keeping inside the rage class features?
Hey the sorcerer got a nice boost!
Wait... The wizard gets an even bigger boost? Like... Why? I understand that sorcerers are more "interesting" than wizard, but wizard are a lot more powerful than sorcerers!
By the way... That new lvl 10th feat for the sorcerer that heightens the bloodline spells? EVERYONE is going to take it, why don't you give it for free like quick preparation for the wizard?
Exotic Weapon shouldn't exist anymore, uncommon and rare rarity item have the same purpose and they even talked about how eastern weapons are now uncommon or rare instead of exotic.
I was really surprised when I saw that some previously exotic weapons became uncommon but others kept that exotic tag.
We now have 2 different systems saying the same thing, which is just weird.
When evaluating a new edition, you shouldn't compare part of it to the previous one, it is a whole and a lot of things in the system changed. The current question is: Is the PF2 Paladin good/fun to play.
The Paladin has a core identity of a chivalrous knight dedicated to rooting out evil and protecting the innocent. Its features don't support this, and your Retributive Strike ability being primarily "I didn't get to do anything but I made you move 5 feet away/I made you attack me" is not really strong support for that identity, nor is it very fun to play.
It's a starting ability that evolves over time and you can make it great. Let's take a small example:
I have a paladin with Shield Ally, Shield Warden and Shield of Reckoning.
An enemy attacks an adjacent friend of mine, I can thus with one reaction do a Shield Block and reduce the enemy damages to my ally, but even before that happens, I do a Retributive strike against the enemy. With a single reaction that acts on a single trigger. IT IS GOOD, and I will feel like a chivalrous knight protecting my allies!
You were talking about 5-stepping away? Well... I can get Holy Wall and prevent you from acting this way! This means that if you're next to me you must choose between attacking me, attacking my ally or taking an AO. That seems like the enemy will have a real hard time!
CBAnaesthesia wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Honestly just take a look at the number of class features that paladin are getting at first level and then take a look at other martial classes.
They get three features: Champion Powers, Deific Weapon AND Retributive Strike. I think it's enough.
At first level you get ONE Champion Power, Lay on Hands. Deific Weapon doesn't do much since you already have martial weapon proficiency, it's mostly a fluff feature. Retributive Strike, as discussed, hardly ever gets used since it is primarily a deterrent.
So, compare that to other first-level features like Rage or Sneak Attack which are pretty strong and give the class a real, strong, and flexible core identity that is consistent with the "classic" barbarian or rogue that a player...
Everyone starts at first level with only one power and must take feats to learn others. Asking for the paladin to have more is honestly just greedy.
And retributive strike can become quite great if you want it to become.
The current paladin has multiple way to evolve, but you must now choose one when the previous paladin could do all. You can make him great with divine power, making him protect his ally, or make an attacker (the weakest of the three options right now).
But honestly, the "classic" paladin that protects? The current class is great for that, shield ally being really awesome in my opinion.
This is just not something that I feel comfortable compromising on. That doesn't mean that I bear any ill will toward those on the other side of the battle. If I lose, then I lose, won't be the first time, probably won't be the last.
In fact if Paizo was going to go that way, I would be fine if there was only two options in the core rulebook since other alignment orders would be an organic growth of that class. And the strange thing is that the antipaladin in the playtest adventure is built on the Paladin template, and creating support for X classes instead of 1 seems like so much work that we'll never really get them.
Except every other class' core abilities work regardless of enemy tactics. Retributive Strike doesn't. That's why the ability is a dumpster fire, along with the class that was misguidedly built around it.
This is not true at all.
Let's take for example Attack of opportunity. You currently have no clue if your adversary has it or doesn't. In most cases, you don't have to care about the manipulate trait or to move carefully out of someone's reach.
That means that Attack of opportunity depends solely on enemy tactics. same as Combat Grab which requires enemies to stay close to the fighter, and lots of other feats/abilities.
You could also say that Sneak attack depends on enemy tactics, since enemies could do what is necessary in order to not be vulnerable to flanking, in fact it's even worse for sneak attack since multiple enemies will be naturally immune to sneak attack.
I don't see enemies naturally immune to Retributive Strike.
An ability shouldn't have to rely on a DM running encounters with intentionally stupid enemy tactics to be useful.
Except when your ennemies ARE stupid, like... goblin dogs?
If you DM your ennemies that should know nothing about the PCs as if they knew all of their abilities and you prevent them to use said abilities, I don't think the issue is with the abilities.
If the enemies never saw said abilities, they shouldn't assume the PC has it, and thus they shouldn't use enemy tactics to prevent such usage.
3 of them had Paladins. Data only comes from those.
Paladin builds:
Sword and board
Longbow only
Shield only
Here are the statistics:
Number of encounters: 8
Encounter 1:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive Strike Triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive Strike Triggers: 0
Encounter 2:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 1
Encounter 3:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. PCs turned back after disasterous encounter 2. This encounter did not happen.
-----
Retributive Strike needs to go.
You do realize that you are the DM and you are the one who makes the decision about what players the goblin dogs are attacking?
Thus you control ENTIRELY when Retributive strike will trigger, and it is part of your role as a DM to make every player feel special.
If you feel that Retributive strikes don't trigger enough, just make it trigger more!
If Paizo opens the class, I'm gone. If they don't I'll be staying.
I don't think they are going to open the class in the core book.
Except that you are completely disregarding what some of us are saying. Please take the time to read it carefuly.
Most people here do not want to have a Paladin class with non-LG. What people want, is a class that is larger than Paladins but includes it, and part of that class would be alignment gated. What would be behind the LG gate alignment would be what is currently called the Paladin class.
Nowhere in that explanation we are saying that Paladins shouldn't be LG or to open them up (at least most of us here, I can't speak to everyone). What we are asking is to have a class enabling different Knights of different Order/Alignment, and that Paladins would be the LG version of that class.
See it as a "Knight Class" with "Paladin Order", "Hellknight Order",etc. The Paladins would live as they currently are as the Knight Class of the Paladin Order. We take NOTHING away from you.
Except losing the "Class" term, how does that affect Paladins and you?
Paladins would still get lots of support with the martials abilities of that class being open to all and the power abilities specific to each order.
I will point this out again as it was pointed out before during said hundreds long post threads regarding the paladin already.
Darkorin wrote:
they showed with the second edition that they could keep the pure Paladin identity with a combination of Powers and Orders/Tradition/Anathema/Feats.
To you and some others this was enough.
To me and some others, paladin are a core component of the game and one that MUST BE LG.
I think you misunderstood my point. I never said that paladins should be something else than LG. I said that Paladin should be an order (see druid, bloodlines,...) requiring LG in a class that also enables player to create champions of other alignment by selecting an order other than Paladins. And Paladins should retain some of their key abilities as their order power.
There is nothing wrong with Paladins being their own class with the LG restruction. Nothing wrong. At. All.
What is wrong is the lack of support for other champions in core. Paladins are a great class and concept, I'm not saying that they shouldn't exist or to give their abilities to everyone. I'm saying the class is a great template to build something more inclusive for everyone who wants to see other champions.
And the people who want to see these other champions are disappointed by the fact that paizo currently does not seem to be interested to use their great new tools (powers, orders, signature skills, etc) to create a more inclusive class.
I will point this out again as it was pointed out before during said hundreds long post threads regarding the paladin already.
Darkorin wrote:
they showed with the second edition that they could keep the pure Paladin identity with a combination of Powers and Orders/Tradition/Anathema/Feats.
To you and some others this was enough.
To me and some others, paladin are a core component of the game and one that MUST BE LG.
I think you misunderstood my point. I never said that paladins should be something else than LG. I said that Paladin should be an order (see druid, bloodlines,...) requiring LG in a class that also enables player to create champions of other alignment by selecting an order other than Paladins. And Paladins should retain some of their key abilities as their order power.
I can see the conceptual argument for not using the term "Paladin" for other alignments than LG.
I do agree, it should be a generic class with X orders, and the LG order would be the Paladins with lay on hands as an order power.
It seemed like the dev didn't want a generic class with very divergent order that locks you out of the other orders. But if you take a look at the sorcerer, it's what they did with the four magical traditions.
The simple fact that the paladins is the only class left with an alignment restriction is an aberration, and they showed with the second edition that they could keep the pure Paladin identity with a combination of Powers and Orders/Tradition/Anathema/Feats.
The Cantrip one does say "from your spell list" and your spell list is determined by your bloodline, so I don't think you can pick from other spell lists.
The one for sorcerer does, not the one for cleric/bard/wizard/druid, which would mean that they could learn any cantrip if we apply the same nonsense logic.
Please remember that the designers are always trying to cut a few word here and there in order, it is normal that sometime they take a few shortcuts but I think we can accept that and understand the intent behind each feats.
And Arcane Evolution intent is to bring some flexibility to the sorcerer arcane's spell known, not to learn any spell from any list.
In PF1, I rarely if ever put anything else on a weapon. Keen maybe at a push.
I think that +1/+2/... weapons feel great to you because on the math side, they are the one which brings the most value, but on roleplay/coolness side, they are boring. In concept, a flaming weapon sounds a lot cooler than a weapon that deals more damage.
If by adding flaming to your weapon you would get the bonus you used to get with a +1, I don't think you would not think that properties are worthless.
What I would like to see is the potency rules to disappear and that the current potency of a weapon be replaced with the number of property runes you have.
Each legendary weapons would have 5rune slots and property runes should take 1 or more rune slots. The cost of adding a rune to the weapon would increase with each rune you would add. That way each magic weapon would feel unique and magical.
This means that each property rune would add something new to the weapon + weapon dice bonus and a to hit bonus that depends on the number of rune slots the property is using.
The funny fact about that is that bard can have up to 5 spell with spontaneous heightening thanks to 2 feats.
And I do have to say that these feats shouldn't exist since they are so good that they will probably be feat tax. I understand the designers who are afraid to give unlimited spontaneous heightening, but if they are afraid of complexity, they should add more spontaneous heightening as spontaneous casters level up.
Maybe start at two, the go up to 3 at 6th level, 4 at 12th and 5 at 18th.
Magnuskn wrote:
About the only advantage I can see for the Sorcerer over the Wizard at this point is that maybe they can just take uncommon and rare spells, where the Wizard needs to go "pretty please, let me kiss your feet" to his GM.
Sorcerers don't have automatic access to uncommon and rare spell. They must learn them with the arcana skill and then spend a week of retraining to retrain a known spell into the new spell, or select it as a new spell on level up. That makes sorcerers a lot worse than wizard when they learn uncommon or rarer spell.
You raise a magical shield of force to protect you. This counts as using the Raise a Shield action (see the sidebar) to gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, though it doesn’t require a hand to use.While the spell is in effect, you can also use the Shield Block reaction with your magic shield. The shield has Hardness 4. After you use Shield Block, the spell is dismissed and you can’t cast it again for 10 minutes. Unlike a normal Shield Block, you can use the spell’s reaction against the magic missile spell.
You are not wielding the shield, which means you can't make attack with it.
In fact it doesn't say that you have a shield, it says that the spell counts as a Raise a Shield action and that you can now use the Shield block reaction while the spell is in effect.
As an additional interesting but non relevant point, a shield with no attack attachment is considered an improvised weapon.
If he argues with you that it is a shield, you can answer him that if he thinks it's a shield it means you have to apply proficiency to it. That means that since sorcerers are untrained with shields, raising a shield gives +1 circumstance bonus with a - 2 untrained proficiency, thus reducing his AC by 1 each time he uses it.
Conclusion: The spell count as a raise the shield action but hopefully for wizard and sorcerer, it is not a shield but a spell.
Sorcerors
Know very few spells.
Don't need to prep.
Can cast a lot of spells at a time (at least 50% more if not twice Wizards)
Use Metamagic to cover for the limits on their casting.
Can't use rituals
Can't make magic items
Are better at using magic items then Wizards.
Except that Wizards can cast more spells than sorcerers, and the wizards are the one who can create wands for a day in order to cast even more spells while sorcerer are more limited.
The better at using magic item is true at lower levels but as you level up more, the majority of the Resonance pool will come from your level and not from charisma.
That said, Sorcerers seem to have more damage and spell oriented feats (Dangerous Sorcery (1), Widen Spell (1), Magical Striker (4), Conceal Spell (4), Overwhelming Spell (8), etc.)
Because I know that some of you like precision, here is the list of occult spell applicable for some of these feats:
Dangerous Sorcery:
Condition: Spell deals damange and has no duration
1st: 2 out of 30 - grim tendrils, Magic missile
2nd: 1 out of 37 - sound burst
3rd: 1 out of 22 - vampiric touch
4th: 1 out of 26 - phantasmal killer
5th: 2 out of 23 - black tentacles, shadow blast (U)
6th: 3 out of 14 - phantasmal calamity, spirit blast, vampiric exsanguination
7th: 2 out of 15 - leng's sting, prismatic spray
8th: 0 out of 11
9th: 2 out of 8 - wail of the banshee, weird
total: 14 out of 186 spells
10th: 0 out of 4
Widen Spell:
Condition: No duration, two maximum spellcasting actions and have an area/burst/cone/line
1st: 3 out of 30 - detect alignment, grim tendrils, sleep
2nd: 1 out of 37 - sound burst
3rd: 0 out of 22
4th: 0 out of 26
5th: 1 out of 23 - shadow blast (U)
6th: 3 out of 14 - collective transposition, phantasmal calamity, vampiric exsanguination
7th: 1 out of 15 - prismatic spray
8th: 0 out of 11
9th: 1 out of 8 - wail of the banshee
total: 10 out of 186 spells
10th: 0 out of 4
Overwhelming Spell:
Condition: two spellcasting actions and spell deals acid, cold, electricity or fire damage.
1st: 0 out of 30
2nd: 0 out of 37
3rd: 0 out of 22
4th: 0 out of 26
5th: 0 out of 23
6th: 0 out of 14
7th: 1 out of 15 - prismatic spray
8th: 0 out of 11
9th: 0 out of 8
total: 1 out of 186 spells
10th: 0 out of 4
Wellspring Spell:
Condition: No duration, two maximum spellcasting actions and 5th level or lower
1st: 5 out of 30 - detect alignment, grim tendrils, Magic missile, mind link, sleep
2nd: 10 out of 37 - deafness, death knell, ghoulish cravings, invisibility, remove fear, remove paralysis, restoration, restore senses, sound burst, telekinetic maneuver
3rd: 4 out of 22 - blindness, dispel magic, Hypercognition, vampiric touch
4th: 3 out of 26 - dimension door, outcast's curse, phantasmal killer
5th: 4 out of 23 - Abyssal plague, Banishment, Mariner's curse, shadow blast (U)
total: 24 out of 138 spells
In conclusion for the occult spell list: Overwhelming spell is garbage, I'm really not sure that Widen spell is worth it, Dangerous Sorcery is kind of ok and Wellspring spell is weird but ok I guess.
As I've said previously, the occult spell list and the sorcerer's feats do not work well together.
I could see changing it if they decide that proficiency increases no longer function as the feat/feature slot.
Weapon proficiencies don't count as class feats for weapon classes, so I don't see why spell proficiencies should for spell classes. It's also a massive pain for "mystic theurge" type builds who want to get a class feat at precisely that level.
The spellcasters have less class feats because spellcasting itself could be seen as a class features. By being able to cast spell, you gain a lot of utility that the martials cannot gain, or gain something similiar only by taking feats.
I'm totally fine with casters having less class feats than martials, but what it means is that multiclass/archetype feats currently require too big of an investment for casters when comparing with martials, and there probably should be casters only archetypes that require only 1-2 feats before being able to take an additional archetype.
On the sorcerer's side. The advanced and greater bloodline powers should be a feat and not mandatory.
That being said, in my own opinion, heightening isn't so valuable as to make the wizard de facto better than a flexible sorcerer. I'd be perfectly happy as a sorcerer to heighten summon monster and fireball for my two free heightens, for instance, and then I'll use my highest level spells at their levels when necessary. Typically, heightened spells aren't any better or even as good as higher level spells anyway (with the notable exception of summon monster).
Given the wizard only has 5 or 6 spells in his spellbook per level that he has to precisely apportion with prepared casting, and doesn't necessarily have any great incentive to heighten anyway, I'll happily play my imperial sorcerer with 4 spells per level that I can cast any way I see fit.
Let's take the example of Mage Armor. It's a really common spell that a lot of people are going to use, but if you want it to be meaningful as a sorcerer, you will have to learn it every 2 level and retrain your previous version, since previous version of mage armor are almost obsolete every time a new one is available.
On the wizard side, he can easily learn it as a 1st level spell and it will be useful for him for the rest of his career.
What about Invisibility? the Heightened (4th) version is really useful, and as a Wizard you have free access to it when learning the normal version of the spell! Sorcerers? You'll have to sacrifice 2 of your spell slots for that since in the long term using your Spontaneous Heightening on this spell is probably a waste (you can cast it at your regular level or 4th, no other options).
Want to learn Haste as a wizard? It's only going to cost for the 3rd level spell, not the 7th!
The new spell system is bringing down the average level of the spells by a lot, and as your wizard level up, it will become more affordable to learn more low level spells, which will open greatly his spellcasting abilities.
I do agree that Heightened spells that deals damage are weaker than a damage spell of your highest spell slot. But utility spells that can be heightened are actually great, and will be the wizard's best tools!
Here is the number of spell for each level: (XH means that X number of spells have heightened effect).
1st level: 35 common (20H), 1 uncommon (1H)
2nd level: 35 common (22H)
3rd level: 23 common (8H), 3 uncommon (1H)
4th level: 24 common (13H), 7 uncommon (2H)
5th level: 18 common (10H), 7 uncommon (2H)
6th level: 16 common (9H), 3 uncommon (2H)
7th level: 8 common (5H), 7 uncommon (2H)
8th level: 11 common (3H), 3 uncommon (1H),1 rare
9th level: 7 common(2H), 2 uncommon (1H)
10th level: 3 uncommon
As you can clearly see, there are a LOT more low level spell than high level one.
Without learning any additional spells, and by always selecting spells of highest level available, a wizard spellbook will contain:
cantrips: 10
1st level: 10 (or 11 for specialist)
2nd level and beyond: 4
which means that without having to learn any spells, the wizard will know half of the 7th and 9th level spells, a third of the 8th level spells, about a quarter of the 6th and 5th level of spells, a 1/6 of level 3 and 4 spells and 1/9 of second level spell and almost a third of first level spells!
Honestly, the wizard knows a lot... and he should be able to learn a lot of lower level spells in his career, just by looting other spellcaster spellbooks.
At lower levels (especially around level 3-7) the sorcerer might be better than the wizard since the wizard will not have the time to accumulate enough spells, but afterward... the wizard utility toolbox will grow and beat the sorcerer.
An other thing to think about: A wizard can access an uncommon spell has soon as he has learned it. The sorcerer must retrain before being able to select it, which is a lot more costly since during that time, the wizard could raise money to buy himself some more spells.
Wizards don't quite have the versatility that one might be led to expect from last edition. Look at how much it costs to learn additional spells outside of leveling. You might learn an additional 2 spells of each level by draining all your wealth by level currency.
Please remember than learning a spell in 2nd edition has a lot more value. You do not have to learn summon monster 1 to 9, learning a single spell gives you that.
I think that the increased value to learn spell is a direct consequence of the new spell structure, where individual spell have a lot more value than in 1st ed.
Right now, the sorcerer seems to be like a "My First spellcaster" class, where most of the choices are streamlined and depend on a single choice: Your bloodline.
This description is a little bit harsh, but the fact that the bard can get 5 spell heightening if he wants to while the sorcerer can never increase his, kind of feel that way.
There is great potential and great idea there, but something is definitely missing.
An error that occurs a lot is people thinking that the sorcerer are getting 5+Int skills when it fact they are getting 5+Int+4 skill training determined by their bloodline.
It means that the sorcerer has 9 Skills trained at first level and 5 signature skills, that makes the sorcerer the 2nd best class at skills after Rogue and before the Bard, even if the Bard can mitigate the differences with his classes feats that enable him to substitute some skills with performance/occultism for checks.
Welcome to my part 2 of the Sorcerer class analysis. Since the Sorcerers can now be of any tradition, I will try to bring an analysis of how their fare against the main spellcaster of each tradition. This thread is to discuss the Divine versions of the sorcerer.
As previously stated, if you have the privilege the test both the divine sorcerer and the cleric during the playtest, your personnal input will be of great value!
In this second part, I will compare the divine sorcerer to the cleric. For the rest of the post sorcerer will be used, but should be read as divine sorcerer.
Hit Points and Proficiencies:
This time around, it is a bit harder to judge, it all depends on what is your priority between skills and battle endurance.
Hit Points: 6+CON for the sorcerer against 8+CON for the cleric
Perception: trained for the sorcerer and the cleric.
Saving throws: Sorcerer has Trained in Fortitude and Reflex, Expert in Will, Cleric is trained in Reflex and expert in Fortitude and Will.
Skills: 9+Int for the sorcerer (5+4 from the bloodline), 5+Int for the bard (and replace some skills with Performance).
Weapons: Trained in simple weapon for the sorcerer and cleric, with additional training for the deity favored weapon for the cleric.
Armor: Untrained for all for the sorcerer, trained in light/medium armors and shields for cleric.
Spells: Same spell proficiency and advancements.[/b]
Signature Skills:[/b] 5 skills, with onlye one flexible one for the Cleric, 6 with 5 flexible ones for the Sorcerer.
Resonance pools: Sorcerer has Charisma as a key ability and will probably have 2-4 more points than the cleric across his career.
The sorcerer is the best when it comes to trained skills, and has more flexibility with his signature skills since most of them are linked to his bloodline.
The cleric has more Hit points, is better at Fortitude saving throws, has potentially training in an exotic or martial weapon as well as training in light/medium armors and shields.
The conclusion depends on how important the skills are for you. Both classes have about the same number of signature skills, which means that if that's what you're looking at, they are similiar, but the sorcerer will be trained in more skills (will probably not train them higher).
If trained skills is not that important to you, Clerics are a lot better. With 2 more hit points per level, expert training in Fortitude saves and training in armors and shields, they will withstand a lot more things than a Sorcerer during combat.
Advancement:
Feats: Clerics are getting 2 more class feats than sorcerers with additionnal class feats at 6th and 10th level. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to view the advance and greater bloodline power as mandatory feats for the sorcerer, which brings both the sorcerer and the cleric at the same number of class feats.
Powers: Both sorcerers and Clerics get Spell points and power. The 3 sorcerer powers are from his bloodline and he has no choice in them after choosing his bloodline. Clerics begin with 1 domain power and can gain additional powers and domain with feats. There is also the strange case of Channel Energy, which comes with its own spell points pool and enables the cleric to cast Heal or Harm (chosen at character creation) at his max spell level 3+CHA times per day.
Spell repertoire/casting: If you ignore Class feats, the sorcerer will have at the end of his career 5 cantrips and 4 spells slots of each level with the same number of spell known. The cleric will know 5 cantrips and 3 spells slots of each level while having access to the whole divine spell list.
Same as before, the sorcerer is locked in a lot of his feats because of his bloodline (something that should change).
The Cleric currently has a lot more customization available with 2 additional class feats he has control over. Cleric also has access to an additional class feature when compared with the Sorcerer, and not a small one: Channel Energy, probably the best feature of the cleric.
Because of that, I consider the Cleric to be vastly superior when it comes to class features.
Spells and spell feats:
Let us now take a look at the divine spells and how it affects the two classes. Divine spells excels at buffing your ally, healing them and removing harmful conditions.
The sorcerer shines with a few things here:
1 additional spell slot of each level More metamagic feats: The sorcerer has access to more metamagic feats that can alter spell known, rendering them more flexible or powerful.
Concentration feats: It is easier for sorcerer to keep his concentration on spells.
Counterspell
But the divine spell list has a lot of very situational spells, making the limits in spell known very harsh. The divine spellcaster role is usually one of a healer, and sorcerers will have to use one of their spontaneous heightening each day to Heal or Harm in order to take full advantage of the divine spellcaster role.
The sorcerer also can gain access to Divine Evolution which will give the sorcerer an free casting of Heal at max spell level, bringing the number of spell slots of maximum level to 5 for the sorcerer.
Numerous sorcerer feats do not bring any value to the divine path, since blasting isn't a great solution for divine sorcerers.
On the Cleric side.
It will be a little bit harder to always prepare the exact spell for the day, but with the number of very good buff spells available from the divine spell list, they should be able to make most of their spell slots matter.
On the healing side, the cleric is simply the best healer of the game, with lots of great feats working with the Heal spell as well as the Channel Energy class feature which brings the total spell slots available for the maximum spell level to 6+Cha, more than the sorcerer has!
The sorcerer might have more spell slots of lower level, but the massive amount of healing that the cleric can do is a lot better than anything the sorcerer can wish for.
The sorcerer has less max spell slots than the cleric, and will have to be very careful with his choice of spell known, at the risk of having spell that will almost never be useful to know.
The only thing the sorcerer has for him is his feats to keep concentration easily, but I'm not sure that his enough to make up for the overwhelming healing power of the cleric.
Divine Sorcerer conclusion:
The divine spell list really gives the divine sorcerer a hard time. He will probably be able to take some useful buff spell, but will have to forget about being able to cast all of the useful remove harmful spells that the divine spell list provides, since these spells are so situational. Lots of his feats are not that interesting with this spell list and he will have to dedicate a spell heightening to Heal or Harm for the rest of his life, bringing the number of spell heightening available to only one, cutting in two his true potential.
With better/more controlled healing, more armors/shield proficiency and the best healing feats in the game, the cleric just dominates the sorcerer on all aspect, even putting to shame the sorcerer's endurance with the help of Channel Energy, bringing the cleric maximum level spell slots well above the sorcerer's one.
It must also be noted that with no way to exclude ennemies from his mass healing, the sorcerer will have a lot harder time to try to fulfill the role of a healer in a group.
The fact that the sorcerer has only 6 classes feats, also makes it almost useless for the sorcerer to try to multi-class into cleric in order to gain access to a few healing feats that would be really useful for him.
General Sorcerer conclusions:
Here I will repeat myself a little bit from the previous post:
The Sorcerer bloodline choice is maybe too big of a choice too soon, it seems like a big threadoff and limits the possibility for future archetype by a LOT.
With only 6 class feats, the sorcerer class is the least interesting class to be going for Archetypes (multiclass, prestige or other).
While retraining is a possibility for other classes in order to mitigate some bad decisions, the bloodline being the main choice for the sorcerer class and the fact that it is singled out as an ability that cannot be normally retrained, it makes retraining unappealing for the sorcerer class.
While other classes only have to bother with designing feats that work for only one magical tradition, Sorcerers are in a special position where their class feat might not be a fitting choice because of its bloodline choice. It makes the creation and balance of sorcerer feats really hard, and the sorcerer definitely would need additional divine feats in order to be viable.
With the occult and divine analysis done, it is becoming clear that the sorcerer of those traditions main drawbacks are that the sorcerer has been built with an arcane tradition in mind, and thus is missing basic proficiency in armors and weapons that can be seen as necessary for caster of other traditions (and we have to keep in mind that the sorcerer also has 2 less hp per level than the classes he tries to challenge).
These general observation about the class is currently making me really afraid of the state of the sorcerer class.
Channel Energy and Divine Evolution bonus round:
What shocked me the most about Divine Evolution, is that the Paladin gets access to a much better version of it with the Channel Life feat, enabling paladins to use the Heal spell at what would be the maximum spell level - 1 for the sorcerer by using spell points.
Modifying Divine Evolution to be used with spell points instead of a once/day mechanic would help the divine sorcerer a lot. It wouldn't be as good as the 3+Cha of the clerics because it would share the same pool as the one that the sorcerer uses to have his power.
Edit: I forgot to talk about it but the divine sorcerer will be probably in an even worse condition when/if the Oracle comes out, since they will probably get increased HP and weapon/armor proficiency compared to sorcerers, with at least one mystery great for healing.
Sorc has better options for damage-increasing and DC increasing abilities. Sorc innately has more resonance, and access to occult, divine, and primal spell lists, whilst likewise being more flexible in their signature skills.
Sorcerers have 2 less feats than wizards and do not have access to all spell lists, the bloodline features imposes 1 spell lists, which means there is no flexibility since the spell list is determined at first level.
Sorcerers is better to be seen as 4 different classes, one for each spell lists, that shares some feats and the same progression.
Occult Evolution looks significantly better than Esoteric Scholar:
- You get a free trained skill.
- You don't have to pay for and drag around a spellbook.
- You can nab any Occult spell you want (even though the Bard ponied up cash, you're still more flexible.)
- You can pick your spell during the adventuring day in a minute, rather than during your Daily Preparations.
Sorcerer is dramatically more flexible here.
It is only mental occult spell, which means that the bard will have to pay in order to add more spell to his spell book but he has access to all the occult spells, the sorcerer does not.
Then comes the spontaneous heightening part of Esoteric scholar, which is really cool since it essentially gives you (max spell slot level) - 1 new spell known for a day.
The abilities are similar, but if you take into account that the barfdcan access it at level 2 instead of level 4 for the sorcerer, the fact that bards have more feats and the fact that the bard is not limited to mental occult spells + has spontaneous heightening with it, I'm not sure that Occult Evolution is significantly better than Esoteric Scholar.
I would like to add that a fighter has a total of 11 class feats while the wizard gets only 8 class feats. That means that a Fighter can get the wizard multiclassing feats a lot faster, and even after getting 3 multiclass feats will still have 8 class feats left to do what he wants with it.
Giant Totem Anathema: Is it intended that giant totem barbarians who refuse contests of strength suddenly forget how to use oversized weapons? The anathema for other totems are arguably reasonable, since other totems with anathema produce magical (or anti-magical) effects, but the benefit of the giant totem has no descriptor to indicate it is anything more than extraordinary weapon training that applies even when not raging. How can that suddenly go away?
I see it more like a loss of confidence, more than anything else. You pride yourself as being the strongest, and since you didn't prove it to yourself, you start doubting it, and thus doubting your abilities.
These mechanics are thematic but you should always adapt it to your role play and character. It seems to me than an explanation like a lack of confidence would explain these temporary ability loss.
Now that the playtest pdf is available, I wanted to try and take the time to analyze how well does the sorcerers do when we put them against their fellow spellcasters.
Since the Sorcerers can now be of any tradition, I will try to bring an analysis of how their fare against the main spellcaster of each tradition. Since the Sorcerer spell tradition is a feature that gets locked in at level 1, I want to stay away from the "Sorcerers have choices" since they feel closer to 4 classes with the same dynamic than a single class with 4 options (Druids and bard have options, but they can pick feats from other options after level 1, Sorcerers cannot).
I am probably only going to DM during the playtest, but I would really like some input from players that are going to play both sorcerers and bards during the playtest in order to get their point of view.
In this first post, I will compare the occult sorcerer to the bard and see how we can compare them and the potential of an occult sorcerer. For the rest of the post sorcerer will be used, but should be read as occult sorcerer.
Now let us compare the two classes! (I will add important comments from the discussions at the end of this post if I missed anything important)
Hit Points and Proficiencies:
Let's be honest, the sorcerer isn't in the best place here.
Hit Points: 6+CON for the sorcerer against 8+CON for the bard
Perception: trained for the sorcerer, expert for the bard
Saving throws: Sorcerer and bard are the same. Trained in Fortitude and Reflex, Expert in Will
Skills: 5+Int for the sorcerer, 7+Int for the bard (and replace some skills with Performance).
Weapons: Trained in simple weapon for the sorcerer, the bard has additionnal training in longsword, rapier, sap, shortsword, shortbow and whip.
Armor: Untrained for all for the sorcerer, trained in light armor and shields for bard.
Spells: Same spell proficiency and advancements.[/b]
Signature Skills: 7 fixed ones for the Bard, 6 with 5 flexible ones for the Sorcerer.
Resonnance pools: Both classes have Charisma as their key ability and should have the same resonnance pool.
The bard here is the clear winner, it has more hit points, skills, more proficiency in weapons and armor. The only advantage that the sorcerer has is a little more flexibility for his signature skills.
Advancement:
Let's bring the interesting comparisons.
Feats: Bards are getting 3 more class feats than sorcerers. Bards are getting additionnal feat at 6th and 10th level and it should also be noted that Muses gives a class feat at level 1, which means that Bard gets 3 additionnal feats compared to the sorcerer. These 3 feats are being replaced with bloodline powers.
Powers: Both sorcerers and bard get Spell points and power. The 3 sorcerer powers are from his bloodline and there is no feat to increase his spell points or gain additional powers. Bards begin with 1 power Counter Performance but has multiple feats granting additional powers and power points.
Spell repertoire: If you ignore Class feats, the sorcerer will have at the end of his career 5 cantrips and 4 spells of each level. The bard will know 5 cantrips and 3 spells of each level, but have access to compositions.
The feats and powers is quite interesting. Sorcerer have to sacrifice 3 feats in order to receive their bloodline powers, which means that where the bard can choose how to evolve, the sorcerer has part of his advancement locked in at the character creation. This shows one of the big flaw of the sorcerer. It's a big package you have to take, even if you don't like half of it (hopefully, the aberrant bloodline powers are quite good).
Spells and spell feats:
This is the big differences between the sorcerer and the bard. The bard brings a lot utility while the sorcerer brings endurance.
The sorcerer shines with a few things here:
1 additional spell of each level More metamagic feats: The sorcerer has access to more metamagic feats that can alter spell known, rendering them more flexible or powerful.
Concentration feats: It is easier for sorcerer to keep his concentration on spells.
Easier Counterspell
But the bard has a few things of his own:
Spontaneous Heightening: up to 4-5 Sponteanous heightened spell every day.
Compositions: Exclusive access to Compositions cantrips (let's leave the powers aside).
It must be noted that Occult Evolution and Esoteric Scholar are quite similiar (gives you access to occult spells outside of your repertoire), but the Esoteric Scholar also gives you the choice to have a third spontaneous heightening spell for a day, and is a lower level feat.
The downside is that a not all of the sorcerers metamagic feats and class feats work well with the occult sorcerer, while all of the bards feats works well for... a bard.
It is a bit hard to say anything else here. It seems to me that spontaneous heightening of 4-5 spells and access to compositions spells, the bard seems a bit more resourceful than the sorcerer, even if the sorcerer has more endurance when it comes to spells.
Occult Sorcerer conclusion:
In the end, the sorcerer chooses 1 bloodline at first level which provides 3 powers (determined by the bloodline), 1 spell of each level (determined by the bloodline) and an additional casting of a spell of each level.
With 2 more hit points per level, 3 additional classes feats, more skills, proficiency in some martial weapons, light armor and shields, the bard might have less spell per day, but he still seems to be superior to the occult sorcerer in almost every way.
It must be noted that with 3 more class feats, the Bard can probably get as much spell per day as the sorcerer by taking the future multiclass sorcerer Archetype, which will come with additional spell known and cantrips, making the bard... an obvious choice compared to the occult sorcerer.
General Sorcerer conclusions:
The Sorcerer bloodline choice is maybe too big of a choice too soon, it seems like a big threadoff and limits the possibility for future archetype by a LOT.
With only 6 class feats, the sorcerer class is the least interesting class to be going for Archetypes (multiclass, prestige or other).
While retraining is a possibility for other classes in order to mitigate some bad decisions, the bloodline being the main choice for the sorcerer class and the fact that it is singled out as an ability that cannot be normally retrained, it makes retraining unappealing for the sorcerer class.
While other classes only have to bother with designing feats that work for only one magical tradition, Sorcerers are in a special position where their class feat might not be a fitting choice because of its bloodline choice. It makes the creation and balance of sorcerer feats really hard.
These general observation about the class is currently making me really afraid of the state of the sorcerer class.
Bonus generic informations:
Sorcerers get 6 class feats
Spellcasters get 8 class feats
Other classes get 11 class feats
One of the main point I had is that the difference of Resonance point between sorcerer and other spellcaster shouldn't be that high, and that since a wizard and a sorcerer should have the same wealth by level, it shouldn't be used as a way to balance the class, unless the sorcerer is supposed to have more wealth.
Ps:Nice reference to Tales of, I used to play with someone who was using that name a lot xD
For myself (as a player) and many of my players, what's the point of "Rare" if it doesn't equal "More Powerful"?
Rare means that it's an effect that is less common. Having more options that are closed to other people can make a character "more powerful" without the effect being more powerful than another spell effect from the same level.
rmcoen wrote:
Not to be a powergaming min/maxer (which, sadly, I am), but let's be real. Magic missile with white bolts (Common) vs. Thessalonian Rune Missile [magic missile with purple bolts] (Rare)... who cares?
That's a really really bad example... a rarer spell shouldn't be the same effect of another spell with cosmetic changes. It should be a spell that feels different, but isn't more powerful.
rmcoen wrote:
Now, if it were Thessalonian Wrath Missile [magic missile with purplish red bolts that screams hideously as it streaks toward its target, causing a Will save or be Shaken], that might be worth pursuing. More powerful than the Common variant, and worth the hassle (or glory) of the Rare tag.
See, you almost get what a rarer spell should be here. Except that you want the rarer spell to just be BETTER than the common one, which it should not be. It should be different. If the tradeoff is to make a will save or be shaken at the price of less damage, it might work. But spell rarity is better when it's completely different spells.
rmcoen wrote:
Jixtilian Stone Golems that perform like Common Stone Golems, meh.
Once again, the "rare" spell or the "katana (rare)" should mean that it's something uncommon and different, not the same with a different flavor text.
Let's take for example that Common Stone golems are vulnerable to acid, but the Jixtilian Stone Golems are vulnerable to fire. There will be some cases when the Jixtilian will be better than the Common one and vice versa.
A group of adventurer trying to fight a Jixtilian Stone golem and not understanding why it doesn't react the way a Stone golem should IS something interesting.
rmcoen wrote:
Unless you're playing a Samurai in King Arthur's Court, if the katana = "longsword + Uncommon tag", no one will ask for a katana.
The katana will not be a longsword + uncommon tag. It will be a weapon sharing the same damage dice than a longsword, but will have different capacities.
For example, you could have two weapons with the same damage dice. One weapon is common and enables you to make Trip attack, the other one is uncommon and enables you to make Grab attacks. Is one better than the other? Not necessarily. Is having access to a new weapon that enables you to make new kind of attack cool? Hell Yeah! (this is by the way a suboptimal example, but you understand what I mean).
rmcoen wrote:
So, then, what use are the tags? If, on the other hand, power is locked behind the tags (i.e. "Katana" = "longsword with +1 to hit").
The Devs have said that power SHOULDN'T be locked behind rarity. Rarity is interesting because you're one of the 10 fighters in the realm who has access to a type of weapon that is rare, enabling you to do things that other fighters can't. That doesn't mean that you are better than the other fighters of the realm, it just mean you can do things that other can't!
rmcoen wrote:
So... this set of rules, according to the stated intent, is unnecessary.
The stated intent is to make available to the DM new kind of reward, you can decide as a DM to scrap all of the rarities and make everything available to the players, or you can make your player feel specials because their character have access to things that only them have access to.
Making your players feeling specials IS the stated intent of the rule, and it is really cool.
Nope, we're looking at full scaling (spell level = half your level rounded up), so you'll have just as good a cantrip as a full caster does. This fact is likely something that some in the thread are forgetting when thinking about getting "just a cantrip, item use, and sig skill" from caster dedication (they are probably thinking of PF1 cantrips).
Is it possible to use the Shield cantrip as a substitute to a real shield for fighters feat?
People seems to forget that fighters-wizard might have less spellcasting, but they will have tons of feats, and will attain legendary status with their weapon group, which won't be the case with a wizard/fighter.
It might be a little bit too early to say that wizard/fighter will be better than the other one.
I just realized... The shield cantrip acts like a shield that takes no hand, and it only requires a verbal action.
I can imagine already two handed weapon fighters with the shield cantrip that scales and feat specialization to use that magic shield overing next to the fighter.
It might take 2 feats, but I'd like to see if the fighter could use that magic shield as a regular shield for his feats.
If you guys are finding these as flexible and effective as our playtesters so far, you can expect all twelve to appear in the CRB, yeah. The bard in my playtest game is loving spending only on feat on fighter dedication to get proficiency in martial weapons and all three categories of armor. Handy!
I really like the new system, but I'm kind of afraid about a few things... That fighter dedication that grant proficiency in martial weapons + all three categories of armor seems really powerful!
What is making me afraid right now is that classes that want to focus on martial competence might gain too much from multi-classing with fighters and we'll end up with lots of barbarian-fighters and ranger-fighters, as well as fighters-barbarian (I suppose that multi classing into barbarian will give access to rage and potentially to totem powers).
Basic Wizard Spellcasting also seems really powerful as a feat (it scales with you), and I sure hope that we'll have scaling combat feats that are interesting.
Right now, it seems to me that the most powerful part of multiclassing will be with accessing powers/cantrips that scale normally, and it might get too interesting to gain a spell point pool with a power, or to learn an additional power to be used with your spell point pool.
Multi-classing to gain access to an attack cantrip is also a huge bonus, since you will never be defenseless ever again, specially if you are a rogue which might be able to sneak with a range attack spell...
If they are too interesting/powerful, it might be a good thing to limit the power/cantrip scaling by the max spell level you have access for that class via multi-class feats.
Does Counter Performance count in the 1 composition/turn limit? Ex: if you cast inspire courage on your turn, you cannot react with Counter Performance since you already have an active performance
I sure hope it does not, otherwise it's still really limited... (even if that would make sense)
I don't think it will cover for people who don't want to do anything involving performance, but it might do well on the niche of a batman bard that some took with archaeologist. The polymath is the muse for you if you're always thinking "Oh, I want to do this...but wait, I could do that! Why can't I do it all?" Prepare a spell to spontaneously cast, get more spontaneous heightening, use skills in a versatile way so you can succeed at a wide variety of stuff? That's the polymath's shtick.
More Spontaneous heightening? I don't see anything saying the bard is getting it, so... is it a polymath muse thing? or do they get the same thing as the sorcerer (2 spells/day that can be heightened as much as you want) and can increase it?
If the Bard can Spontaneous heighten more spells than the sorcerer that would be a bit sad...
Still doesn't help you though, I think. Sorry, which do you recommend we make suck?
Paladin, since it's the only class left with an alignment requirement... (That's half a joke by the way, I don't want the paladin to suck, but I wish it was more open xD)
Edit: On a more serious note, it seems like the composition are spell exclusive to the bard from what I understand, which means that class-specific spells will still exist?
