Darkling36's page

Well they are high tech items, you could say they all contain a non lethal mode, if that helps with the feel of the game. The rules support it or at this point seem to. So making the story fit is the main barrier. Frag grenades for instance might deploy a force field around itself(fluff force fields seem to be extremely common in SF and are the only way 99% of armor works), to reduce the power of the explosion, or something similar. That would also explain why there are no nonlethal grenades in the book that fire soft rubber pellets, pure conclusive force, or lower levels of electricity, they aren’t separate items because it’s actually a standard feature.

I had some questions that I hoped others could help me out with the math on. I’m at work and can’t do it myself right now, and in some cases don’t have access to the book to do so anyway. The questions are concerning the weapon quality explode. Please presume heavy weapons for the questions not grenades or other options.

1, how many targets must you hit on average to deal equivalent or greater damage with an unwieldy explode weapon in comparison to a comparable single target weapon, either as single shots or full attacking. Single target weapons have higher damage but excluding special abilities even a successful save deals half damage, whereas a missed shot deals nothing.

2, is it generally an advantage to use deadly aim with this weapon? I know that in most cases the penalty to hit is worse than the bonus damage but with explode even on a save half that damage goes through. So making someone 10% more likely to save but still take half, and half the extra damage, seems like it would make the feat generally useful.

3, how hard is it to keep up with the save curve shown in alien archive? It should be roughly the same as the spell save curve. And so long as you’re willing to accept slightly lower damage less important to keep maxed. Unless I’m miss remembering something lower dex mod is only -2.5% damage per 1 instead of -5%.

Thank you in advance, and please ask if I wasn’t clear on what I’m trying to check. I had to post this in a bit of a hurry.

I think it's excellent that so many pregens meet reasonable space combat goals.

A + 6 to be decent at something is fairly minimal and easily reached with any attention paid. The vast majority of builds can reach that in at least one of the categories with little more investment than a skill point. And the few that aren't are still within a point or two.

Ravingdork wrote:

Many pregens aren't good examples of minimums insomuch as they are great examples of how NOT to build characters.

Pregens get played at conventions.

They are most people's first introduction to Starfinder. A lot of people use them as a guide to creating their first character.

If they can't do the tasks a character is expected to be able to handle, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

I'm glad the SF pregens are better than most, and they do seem to be. But I've seen enough Paizo produced pregens that don't even spend all their attribute points, and then make even worse build choices to consider them good builds. It's true that they're many peoples first exposure to the system and that new people base their own characters off their designs, but that doesn't make them even decent. The goal here would be for generally better pregen design, not for the system to be reworked to match their abilities.

It's also worth considering that what you keep seeing as advice or "mandatory" picks are for that particular person's build and play style. And for anyone else they're just ideas, particularly as versatile as SF is. Judging purely from your feat choices it looks like you're focusing heavily on casting, and you'll know your GM and if they'll let your party rest enough that you can play that way. I wouldn't get longarms unless you see yourself regularly shooting in combat, and have a high enough Dex to regularly hit. If you're not happy with your odds of hitting, or your damage with a pistol but you're only shooting a few times a combat the use harrying fire, +2 to hit is +10% damage to your teams heavy hitter. Your team mate will thank you for the hit, or when you use covering fire to help save the envoy's last few HP while they hury to you.

As for the feats you've listed, penetrating spell has limited use as others have noted, personally I'd take mobility instead of combat casting, move and eat the AoO with a higher bonus, then get your spell off from outside reach. I've never been big on spell penetration, but then the GMs in my group almost never hit us with a meaningful SR, and that by accident. It sounds like yours likes to make use of it. Spell focus is the only one I consider mandatory, though on a purely support build I could see skipping it.

My thoughts at least.

The why would probably be game balance. And while you could argue that you're able to hit more sensitive places and inflict more damage that really seems to be what Weapon Specialization is.

I'd like to join if able. Two character options

Class: Operative (skill focused not combat)
Character level 1
Space combat role: any, specializing in Science or engineering

Option 2

Class: Technomancer
Character level 2
Space combat role, science or engineering

I've only been doing PbP here for a few months, but I try to keep a good frequency and my history I hope shows that.

@Hithesius:True, that was bad phrasing on my end, though personally I think explosive is easily preferable to the others anyway. I was thinking of the several energy based explosive weapons, not weapon effects like line or blast.

And I agree, the envoy is the best at whatever skill it wants to focus on by a long shot so long as it's on the approved list. The operative is next as it scales faster. I think there are more computer tricks for the operative and mechanic but the Envoy does have their own tricks too and they're worth considering.

As for the touch limit, it's not much of a worry. Standard action fire, swift change to one hand on weapon, move charge your ally's weapon. Next round reverse that. It's only an issue if you somehow threaten with the weapon, and I don't think many mechanics are using melee and overcharge. Or of course just get yourself more than two arms.

Unlike trick attack overcharge also works with several area effects like Explosive. So that damage might be multiplied across a 15' blast at level 5 with a shock caster. Don't get me wrong, in general the Operative will outdamage you, and if they want to they'll also be better at engineering and computers. But you have your own tricks and can quickly become everyone's favorite person to stand next to. There are plenty of good tricks, like adding your bypass to perception, but overcharge is my personal favorite combat trick.

Outside of relying on the GM keep providing you with grenades, or if you multiclass guns(though that has its own significant down sides). Not really. Grenades start expensive and as you level they get more so. At level 20 a grenade cost a full third of the closest comparable weapon. Bombard helps, but it's really just a once per fight trick, and without plenty of grenades the other abilities the style gives won't help someone going unarmed at all. You could rely on lower level grenades which are comparatively cheap but the damage from them won't be particularly relevant.

You'll also have a issue in not having much in the way of non combat stats. As an unarmed fighter you need STR. You would also REALLY need STR for the range boost if you went the overload route (even presuming they work together, I don't have the book in front of me so I can't confirm that wording). Otherwise with overload you'll either have to take the -2 penalty to your save DC or get caught in the explosive yourself.

You also need a high Dex, since that's what your save DC for grenades works off of, and you'll want the AC boost in melee. I think you want a minimum of 16 in each, so even with a +2 in one you're now out of stat points to add to anything else.

Indeed, thank you for the invite and for running.

I don't mind waiting. Could you possibly shoot me a PM when you start? I'll try and check back regularly but with as loose a start time as we're looking at it might take me a while to catch it.

Looking forward to it.

I'd like to give it a shot.

Class: Mercenary drone Mechanic
Level 1
I have played it before(and run it. I'm actually in it with another character in a different PbP.)
I've also both played and run starship combat before.

I'm newer on the PbP sene here but I think I've shown a good adherence to post quality and frequency.

@Baggageboy: Unless I've missed something it's only level +2 in major settlements. Which is relivent as that one level difference is what would potentially place the Editor outside reach without GM approval.

@DanceswithMemes: This is where your and your party's play style will have an impact. If you're looking for personal big damage then you'll probably find an unwieldy weapon very tempting. They often hit nearly twice as hard as more flexible weapons. In the case of those full attacks where the other items would outpace you they have that -4 to hit which may make a big difference. And as mentioned you're unlikely to get a lot of full attacks unless you're landing and then moving again all the time.

On the other hand threatening, particularly as large an area as you were thinking is a huge difference for your party. A melee weapon, particularly with step up or step up and strike can remove a lot of damage from your party by preventing extra attacks as the enemy now much use its move to back away instead of full attack, or give you a free hit, so an extra 50%+ damage. Add in the extra +1 you grant your friends from coordinated shot or the simple +2 you grant that solarion as flank(easy to get with flight and reach)and all of a sudden you've increased your party's damage by 5-10% across the board.

You might consider the phirenic adept archtype, soldier is the only class that can do it without paying a huge price in individuality. I don't really like it, and normally wouldn't suggest it but given your concept it's a possibility instead of multi classing. Another option might be to take the priest theme and then pure soldier of your flavor(guard is a nice party boosting flavor if you can snag the dex.) and add the spellthrower fusion to your weapons. Make a single large spell gem with layered healing and battle spells, and if you need them land next to your ally one turn and pray over them and the gun for your "spell" the next. Cost money and slows your casting down but again no need to multi class and you don't have to split your stats so heavily.

Swoosh: Even if you'd like to discount the high damage a melee user can get to fairly easily, which I wouldn't generally advise. The real benefit to melee is the control of the battlefield it grants you, at least to my mind. A melee user gets to threaten, thus controlling which enemies can attack freely, provide others bonuses to hit, or alternately stand in the way and give a vulnerable ally soft cover, they can chase problematic enemy's out of cover and give a reason why foes can't just lie down and shoot you from afar. They get to do that while having with limited investment some of the highest damage in the game. Melee is a party benefit choice just as much as Envoy is. They pay for it by being more tempting targets, attracting more fire with generally less cover.

Small side note, you'll want to make sure your GM will let you do this ahead of time. While the Editor works just as advertised it's also a level 5 item, so if your GM disapproves of it he's within his rights to say you can't find or have clearance for it until a later level. Not saying it's likely, just that it's something to double check if you make it a plan.

And it might be worth looking at unweildy weapons. You'd loose your area of threat, but if you're going to be primarily flying you'll be spending your move action each round doing so even if you'd rather not move. And the unwieldy weapons could help you pick back up some of the damage lost to no full attacks. How viable that is depends on your style but it's a thought.

I'll admit I haven't gotten to play much with starship combat yet, but the main issue I've seen is that a lot of the ships have one very strong arc and one or more arcs with no weapons or virtually so. Turrets help, but so far in all the fights I've both run and played the only roll that's mattered is that pilot initiative roll. After round 2 the ships are always in close quarters and just dart and dance around each other with whoever won initiative moving into the others blind spot. Turrets help with this, but they can only do so much. This is a particular problem for large tables as since the ship never takes any damage extra engineers and the science officer don't really have anything to do. Making sure every arc has some sort of weapon even a weak one would help with this, gives the crew something to do and means initiative isn't the only roll that matters. Has anyone else run into this?

I wouldn't mind running, I do it regularly enough at my local society. But I don't really have regular access to a computer to handle maps and things like that, just a phone. I can post plenty, I can move stuff around on maps fairly easy, but I can't really create them.

I'd also love to get in on a game of incident at Absalon. I generally prefer to play before I run, makes the game more enjoyable when you can't predict everything. After I play I wouldn't mind coming back to run if I can solve the above problem.

@Darkling

I agree with you on most points, however for the technomancer the first 1-7 levels are a slog because they dont get good aoe spells to fill out that role, and being stuck with small arms from the get go kinda hurts them. They really dont come online till level 8 when they can spell shot fireballs and lightning bolts

so there's htat to consider as well

Umm, I can't agree with you there. Overheat deals 4 times the damage of the scattergun. More since the accuracy lost is a 10% less damage for the weapon. The acid spells at level 2 are great and microbot is a very handy party boost. I'm enjoying the spells at all levels.

I just noticed that I didn't quite answer one point you brought up. I agree that Technomancers aren't great at single target damage, but I feel like that's part of the flavor of the class. If you want spells and to deal single target damage then the Mystic is much better. Spells and scorching large groups then the Technomancer. That's why I compared them to another AOE user, to get the closest comparison.

While you do bring up a good poitn Darkling consider this

Spells are limited compare to say ammo

and while they can do more aoe damage, technomancers have a very hard time doign sustained damage on their own for the cost of a small arm, when longarms are just overall better

that and longarms really help out with classes like the nevoy and mystic who dont have a lot of damage dealing options, still contribute to combat outside of improvisations and spells

You certainly can't do those every turn I agree. The point I was making it that in that instance the damage you deal in combat is spiked into a single attack instead of spread more evenly over the entire combat. They do noticeably less damage most turns but when they choose to they can pull out a massive jump. That single spell deals about 3 turns worth of damage from that soldier, and during the other two turns the Technomancer is still shooting their pistol, the soldier is also dealing with three times the energy resistance. Plus after the first time a soldier catches a bunch of people in their explosive the enemy will start spreading out to minimize his effects, the Technomancer doesn't work as much what they do after unless he really wants to repeat himself.

The mystic has some excellent combat spells like mind thrust and it's hard to ignore mind control effects. The Envoy can very well be the MVP of damage most fights. It's just that a large percentage of their damage is the 5, 10, or 20% damage boost the rest of the party is enjoying, which people may forget to credit back to them.

Can they enjoy a noticeable boost in damage from using longarms? Yes, but it's not something that they fail at doing significant and comparable damage without.

That could be fun, and a gear boost for them would be a great idea in my opinion. I'd love to see one that granted you QuickDraw with small arms and if you had quickdraw let you draw a small arm as a free action once a turn.

That's, the thread that prompted me to mention bulk of course. I'm bad with names and that clearly carries into forums since I didn't notice you were the poster there. Sorry then.

I think it's a bit silly, and honestly probably an artifact of a designer that's a bit too in love with the tank/backpack style flamethrowers you see in games and media and started out the bulk accordingly. So while cryo guns require only power to produce a near limitless supply of hyper cooling fluid people who like flamethrowers must haul a giant pack of it. Silly and I'd be willing to wave it off in a home game, but I doubt they're going to change it up at this point. Which is the important point for society play.

Perhaps an operative exploit that boosts damage for operative weapons/small arms that is only accessible at high levels would address this well. However this does little for other classes that are stuck either paying the feat tax to use long arms or accepting very poor damage.

I don't think I'd call it a feat tax. It's certainly a valid use of a pair of feats and maybe one of the best uses until more options arrive but they're not what I'd consider mandatory. The classes without longarms just balance in other ways, so they have a lower sustained damage output than a rifle offers. A level 7 Technomancer without the feats only deals pistol damage on most rounds and thus much less than a heavy weapon soldier. But whenever they like they can toss a 9d6 fireball, which is several times more damage than even a specialist soldier with the nearest comparable gun, a 1d12 shock caster. They can't do it every round but it seems to even put that I've seen. Each of the classes has something that lets them balance out to some equivalence in combat from what I've seen. Taking Longarms is certainly a boost, but not strictly necessary. Just one of the best options at this, early and limited point.

Just because one class is different in regards to thing X from the other classes who all do thing X the same way doesn't mean it's wrong. I think it's clear that while the Starfinder team had some conventions they generally stuck to they were also willing to break from them. The clearest example of that is the Mystic class. Every other class gets an option to choose from a pool of things at select levels. But the mystic must pick a path at level 1 and gain only that path's things with no variation as far as class abilities go. It's definitely a head scratcher to me as to why they're different but that doesn't make them wrong or that they need a fix in future books. Just that they do X differently than any other class does X.

A side note that occurred to me based on another thread. If you stick with the flame rifle the bulk might be an issue. Each spare tank is 1 bulk and only holds 4 shots. So even counting the one loaded into your rifle and ignoring the bulk of the rifle you're looking at 2 bulk to hold 12 shots. 12 shots is what I think of as a dead minimum as ammo for a scenario. It's the point I'd be feeling antsy and wanting to restock on any other weapon. And to carry a safer 20 that's 4 bulk. That's 5 bulk counting the weapon, so if you're carrying anything else you're about to be overburdened without a boosted str score. Petrol weapons are both heavy and expensive.

The way Bombard is set up now works for me, there's a very heavy weapon specialist feel. If you made more of the abilities grenade focused it would, make the style kind of terrible. I mean grenades are so expensive that they're one third the cost of a weapon that does comparable damage, that's absurd. Any weapon that you only use when you loot it is a bad weapon. If Bombard was more grenade centric then they would just have a set of abilities they got to use once a fight, or the character would hemorrhage credits and be several levels down equipment wise just to use their abilities twice or maybe three times in the new longer fights.

You are a mystic just stabilize targets that you or your party members knockout, there is your mercy.

Unfortunately that's not really an option. Per the rules if the NPC doesn't have resolve points(so by my understanding if it's not a big important NPC) then at 0 it dies. No delay, no leeway, just dead at that point. I believe the point of the rule change is less tracking for the GM, but it does present problems for the GM.

You might be able to convince the GM to use the option noted that gives you 3 rounds to stabilize, but that's table variation and you just can't rely on it.

I agree with the issue on claiming day jobs will pay for ammo. That's money that could pay for anything, so you're still paying for stuff no one else has to. And if the weapon is something you use with any frequency, which since you took a feat for it I presume you are, you'll never pay for your ammo with that roll. I wouldn't bet on seeing petrol in a scenario more than once a blue moon either.

I didn't realize you where wanting to deal nonlethal, that's a completely reasonable choice and I can particularly get behind the RP behind it too. That is a bit of a shift in the equation. I'd still say that laser is typically a more advantageous weapon, but yes it's harder to fit automatic nonlethal on it until you hit level 5 and can get the next level of it.

I would like to ask before you make that decision to simply remember that only the last damage type matters. You could shoot someone with a "merciful" weapon all day, but if that last point of damage is from your soldier friend with a 1d3 flare then they are dead. So taking folk alive is a matter of timing not constant nonlethal attempts. You're best method for this in my opinion is to convince the rest of the party to help you take them alive. Possibly by pointing out how much you feel like healing them may depend on how many people they don't murderhobo.

Also, enemy EAC's are generally pretty low. You might make that -4 attempt more frequently than you think. And if not a dedicated weapon like a pulsecaster or arc riffle might be something to pull out when you think it's time for that last shot. It's also worth doing so you have a backup to deal with fire resistant foes. And worth noting that if you're fighting something with fire resistance, even if not all of the enemies have it that creature acts like a wall to the line of damage if you can't deal more than it has resistance and nothing on the other side takes damage either.

Whichever you choose, I wish you and your character luck.

Personally I like the solarion class, I think it's good at filling a number of roles and if I had elected to play party face would probably pick it over envoy, which I just don't enjoy nearly as much. You don't really need much Cha unless you want it, it has no where near the Resolve drain that other classes do. Probably to offset the fact that it won't have a lot of resolve. And if you want more there's a feat for that. I understand that if you hyperspecialize to the exclusion of all else your saves will suffer, but that's because you've excluded all else as being important. Sidereal influence as a skill boost goes has some of the best skills to choose from even if you don't want to be the face, everyone likes sense motive. A mechanic has to be level 9 to meet your bonus and 13 to beat it. And while they may like their skills they don't get to modify them to better fit their style. I'll admit that I feel a squeeze for skill points with it, but I feel the same with most classes.

With SFS incentivizing use of batteries like they have I think everything else is going to become a backup pretty quickly. As you note, ammo isn't cheap, even just rounds quickly add up and really quickly if you like a bigger gun. And at low levels that's really really going to hurt, spending nearly half of what you make on the ammo you spent to make it is extremely painful in Society play. Fortunately you have options besides shooting or it would be even worse.

Honestly I'd look at the laser rifle, see if that will fill your desire for bringing the glory of the sun to the fight. You can always keep the flame rifle for a backup, or not if you're having bulk issues. Paying that much in ammo cost is going to remove your ability to upgrade yourself at low levels, and it's going to end up being a significant opportunity cost as you progress even at higher levels. If Society play wants to maker clear we should be using energy weapons then all we can do is voice a complaint at the limited choice and hope they'll eventually even the playing field again. It's sad to see all the neat things you want to do, but probably not worth the punishment to your pocket book if you can try something else without completely ignoring your concept. Personally I wanted to make a big soldier with a machine gun, but it's hard to agree to pay 360 to use that ability, or 45 for a suppressive fire attempt when the alternative is free.

I think it's going to be pretty GM dependent and probably situational as well. I know I would let someone who lost a limb to something to pay the 110, instead of 100, for a prosthetic limb, and then let them forget that such ever happened. By which I mean I would ignore that the limb was an implant even if it would technically by the rules matter at some point, where I might bring up that false limb when dealing with someone who wanted to be all chrome. Not that I'd let them forget the time they reached all the way back into the mimic fridge for some fake ice cream, that's getting mentioned in every game forever.

But if they wanted something with a lot more oomph like speed suspension, that I'd go by the same rules I'd use for other implants. They have muscles they shouldn't have, their legs are extra flexible and bulky, things that can be noticed by scanning or an alert gaurd. Though most of the time it's not going to matter.

I'd love to join if not too late. I have two characters I'd like to play but haven't had a chance yet. I'd be glad to do either as helped part balance.

Salvo, known to most as Sal. Ysoki mercenary drone mechanic. Sal has worked in a number of larger mercenary bands over the year as an engineer providing support and assistance for those in the front lines. Currently free from his contracts he's looking for something different to test his newly completed Mark 1 Artillery drone. Focus on engineering and computers out of combat. In combat he will let Mark 1 do most of the fighting while working to build defenses for the rest of the team and boost offense with overcharge. I don't think the AP goes long enough but eventually Sal will pick up some heavy weapons himself and become a one mouse Artillery support unit. Well, him and whichever Mark he's on by then.

Trascilion, Shirren Scholar Operative(detective). Trascilion has spent years studying and mastering genetic engineering. Convinced that the secret to freeing the rest of his race from the bondage of the swarm must lay along those lines. Trascilion is looking to take his studies beyond the lab in hopes that experiencing the Vast will give him the tools or inspiration to complete his self imposed mission. Very much a knowledge focused character, in combat he'll look to provide the right info and attack at the right time.

The rule you are looking for is under "Armor Check Penalty" in the Equipment section:

"Sleeping in armor: A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can't charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue."
This can be mitigated with the Endurance Feat as noted above, and also by the magical enhancement Restful Armor from the Advanced Class Guide.

That would be Pathfinder, not Starfinder.

I'd say there's no reason you can't sleep in it. Might not be the most comfortable but some armors provide weeks of life support, I feel like the designers would have made them comfortable enough to sleep in since otherwise most of that is wasted as the user dies from exposure or sleep deprivation before their armor runs out of supplies.

But the people making the check have been educated with materials beyond their own planet. They've had access to reports from a variety of planets and probably classes in and on them. If you base it on where they're from then a spacer suddenly has a D.C. At least 5 higher then everyone else. How many animals make their home on Absalon station? A person might have more personal knowledge about something from their world, but that doesn't mean an off world biologist doesn't have plenty of information too.

This is a space game, the default for the vast majority of games are going to be adventuring on different planets than your own, I don't think that means that all these checks should have an extra high DC because people are following genre norms of traveling to distant localities.

I do wish this didn't exclude GMs, there are several people in my area who run 90% of the games and get to play maybe 5%. They put in most of the time, effort and expense, and they're unlikely to earn these boons. If they refused to run because they wanted to try and earn this then the games might not happen. Or since our area isn't huge if they run one then try to come back to play it it'll be months before they can because filling out a table with with people who haven't played will be an issue. I suspect that's the same for other areas. They may have other boons they can gain, though as has been mentioned they might not actually get to access them, but they're doing the work, they ought to get extra benifits, not need to choose between two sets of them. Particularly when if they decide they really want this one benefit then maybe the game doesn't happen at all.

I'd suggest the poison rules. If you give everyone a save or two depending one how many one too many is for each it'll also cut short complaints that the 14 con Vesk shouldn't have as many penalties as the 10 con Ysoki.

I think there's plenty of room for more options both in combat and out for more gear boost. Some I'd like to see in some form that are more combat focused.

When using injection weapons boost the DC by 1(maybe 2 at some point)

Once per day may use a limited use fusion one additional time after its limit has been reached.

Once per day get an extra use/charge from one armor upgrade.

I agree that it's not unreasonable to let a soldier have some non combat options for their boost. Though I think they should be more in line with extra abilities or options instead of skill bonus boost. A soldier gets half as many gear boost as most other classes similar options, so even with something like this available they're not going to surpass any other class for skill supremacy anytime soon. I've fewer ideas for these, but that'll change as I play more and most gear comes out.

When using medkit to treat deadly wounds heal an additional 2 hp, +1 per four levels you have.

The snub scattergun notes itself as being more concealable, level 8, but the others seem to be normal rifle size. I don't think I'd let you just tear chunks of a weapon off without making it broken or significantly dropping range. Which would be a major issue since it's total range is only 15'. If you want pistol AoE I'd look at the flame pistol. But of course really this would come down to the GM and if they wanted to house rule it.

If people really think that it's no big deal that one class of weapons are free to use and free of extra paperwork, then I suggest the following. Use only non batteriy powered weapons, or willingly tithe the recharge fees for the ones you use in weapons at the end of each game. Once you've done that for a few levels if you still feel that way come back and explain how you don't mind the extra paperwork, or the extra time tracking that info, and note the total you've spent. Bet that once it's totaled it's more than you expected, and that you or others can think of a few things you could have otherwise bought. Plus there's the fact that others aren't having to do any of this.

Edit: please note, I don't mean to attack anyone with this. But I think most people are underestimating things like how much of an imbalance of credits this could be or the trouble of constantly figuring out how much ammo or by when no one else at the game does. If it's truly an insignificant cost with minimal effort, why do we make if free of both for some but not others.

From what I've seen SFS you're doing something wrong if you're using that much ammo.

My main char has 1 rank in profession. I've used almost 50 rounds in 5 scenarios between the mechanic and his drone both shooting. 1 rank + stat (0, for argument sake.) + class skill + profession kit = 8. Take 10 is 36cr per scenario. That covers a most ammo costs.

My main point was, ammo is not a huge cost unless you're doing automatic fire a lot.

Darkling36 wrote:

That's the price for a small arm round, those are half the cost of most other ammunition, and contain more rounds per than the others. And really aside from Operatives, anyone using small arms as their primary attack is almost certainly doing things other than attacking. To buy a box of ammo with a day job roll you'd have to roll a 25 for arrows, 28 for scattergun shells, a 30 for petrol, 37 for longarms, a 45 for heavy weapons. I don't know about you, but regularly getting that is outside the realm of possibility for most characters I build, and that's presuming I only fire enough to need a single box per mission, which seems unlikely. Nor can most characters dedicate a skill point every level to try and one day do it.

Plus, that money would still be there if they didn't have to buy ammo, and the people getting ammo for free thus use it for other things.

I can just as easily say that you're doing something wrong using that little ammo. Most scenarios have 3 or 4 fights, each lasting multiple rounds.

Arrows, come in a pack of 20, and only 1 weapon that uses them has a usage of less than 2, (one of those two is something no one is proficient with by the way). So you get maybe 10 shots each. Pretty reasonable to say you'll shoot at least that much in a scenario. 50-100 credits a game.

Scattergun shells, pack of 25. Nice deal since most of the guns that use it only fire a single shell at a time. You'll probably be firing as a full attack and most builds will only use this as a situational/backup weapon, but still reasonably priced. 28+ credits a game. Unless using the HW version, that cost 6x as much.

Petrol, comes in batches of 20, every gun has a usage of at least 4. So expect to go through at least 2 batches a game, probably more. 120-240 a game

Longarms rounds, packs of 25 and most guns only have a usage of 1. The damage and use bargain of the game. Probably only need 3/4 of a pack of ammo a game. About 50 a game.

Heavy weapons rounds, batches of 20 and virtually all guns have a usage of at least 2. So 10 shots and you're done. 90-180 a game.

Honestly as long as most fights I've seen go, and with full action attacks an option from the guy go I'd consider most of these estimates to be well below what you'd actually spend, but I was trying to be conservative.

That's the price for a small arm round, those are half the cost of most other ammunition, and contain more rounds per than the others. And really aside from Operatives, anyone using small arms as their primary attack is almost certainly doing things other than attacking. To buy a box of ammo with a day job roll you'd have to roll a 25 for arrows, 28 for scattergun shells, a 30 for petrol, 37 for longarms, a 45 for heavy weapons. I don't know about you, but regularly getting that is outside the realm of possibility for most characters I build, and that's presuming I only fire enough to need a single box per mission, which seems unlikely. Nor can most characters dedicate a skill point every level to try and one day do it.

Plus, that money would still be there if they didn't have to buy ammo, and the people getting ammo for free thus use it for other things.

Automatic fire (a flexibility focused not DPR option, which is the basis for a feat) is only available in projectile weapons until level 9-10, after most of society play has passed. All single target heavy weapons, and most longarms are either projectile or with fewer examples, lasers which have their own limits. The longarms that are neither tend to be several levels behind the damage curve. Everything else is a blast, or line, or explode weapon. It's also the only weapon category that includes non-unwieldy blast weapons. Several of the soldier's class abilities are built for Projectile weapons or weapon options that are mostly found in that category. 3 out of 12 of their gear boost actually, so 25%. I'll admit that the soldier is the class most hurt by this disparity but it's also the class most reliant on weapons.

Also, all sniper weapons fire projectiles.

Those seem like classes or variations that are affected by having to spend credits others don't. They either have to pay, can't take an option, or can't make use of a class ability. That s isn't just about some people trying to get free extra damage(which I'm still not sure of, and likely won't be until we see if the extra 10%+ of damage from more hits holds true in the archives). I'm sure there are other examples, those are just the ones I though of off the top of my head.

To be honest, I don't think that it is an issue.

Special material ammo is likely going to be the reason that we won't care too much about DR or hardness in the long term.

I do think the balance will be an issue.., it even seems like dr and hardness are rare in creatures

There's always been plenty of un-bypassable DR. I don't think we can say how common DR is until we see the alien archive. From the number of ways in the book to try and mitigate DR I'd say it'll be reasonably common. Though many of those are at higher levels. Maybe it shoots up later on, becomes common at high levels, but I do not know I'd bet on it too heavily.

Simpler and more future proof to just name the particular ammo typesthe society is willing to provide. Then you don't have to specify that __ is particularly exempt from said rule or such. Much easier to specifically include than specifically exclude as new things are added to the game.

Looking at the ammo, my suggestion for tier 1 would not cover heavy weapons as their ammo is tier 2. Leadership could include tier 2 if they choose.

My point is to focus on the tier of the ammo as a basis for making the decision. That way, if they come out with special ammo on chronicles they can make it a higher tier that would fall under a "free reload" option.

I think it'd just be easier to specify what ammo in the rules. It's the basic ammo for a large class of weapons, and that way if piazo comes out with other level 1 ammo it can be excluded without changing anything. In fact there's already a candidate for this, special material doesn't change item level(good since it would otherwise be a heap way to fit more fusions than intended.) but you wouldn't want to automatically refill their adamantine small arm rounds, or the ones they put fusions on which are still item level 1 ammo.

My suggestion to allow tier 1 ammo to be refilled would cover automatic weapons.

Of course the player would need to make an initial investment of ammo but once that is done they would be ok.

I presume you're including heavy rounds? They're item level two technically but for soldiers at least they're a common choice.

I'd be more than happy to make that initial investment. Honestly I'm even ok with paying as normal, if everyone else is paying too.

Mark Stratton wrote:

They just announced the new rule yesterday. Maybe we could wait a bit and see how it impacts this balance between kinetic and energy weapons before we decide there's an imbalance that needs to be adjusted.

Sure, but since I've decided to completely abandon kinetic weapons except for neccesary backup (resistance to weapon and all fusions) at least for me I can already tell how it's going to effect balance for me.

I agree. I already have and was playing a heavy weapons soldier. I was going to get some automatics, suppressive fire and have fun. But while I'm ok with my choices costing me a bit more, spending thousands of credits every few levels more than someone else who already has other advantages is too much. Thats not a small advantage on credit that could be spent on personal upgrades or better armor sooner.

I like option B. The main problem with option A is that the variety of ammo types means that you're not likely to see your rounds in a scenario unless the writers make a coordinated effort. And each time a pile of batteries is found to fill up the player's bags who are already getting free refills is just going to frustrate the guy using automatic fire to help his allies hit but hasn't seen a heavy round in three games. If the society is topping everyone off with common ammunition (battery charges and rounds) then there's both less bookkeeping, less pressure on the GMs to have counted every single shot made by the NPC's so the players can try and get one more round to use in that scenario, and no frustration at other people for getting free stuff, because so are that. The free stuff might seem minor, but some guns have large capacity and large usages, and that can equal hundreds of credits just to refill an empty gun. That's noticeable at any level.

Sid De Squid wrote:

So is the same discount going to be provided to ballistic weapons? Or is there no longer going to be game balance between battery powered weapons and ballistics?

Projectile weapons are usually cheaper and do more damage. And it's easier and cheaper to carry and reload extra ammunition than it is for extra batteries.

Energy weapons are also probably not as good at higher levels when enemies with energy resistance and immunity are more common. Damage reduction isn't as much of an issue in a game where martials don't rely on iterative attacks as much.

On the last bit, why would energy resistance have any more effect than damage resistance? The ways to mitigate DR are mostly outside the scope of SFS play. The way to mitigate ER or flat immunity is that there are a wide variety of different energy types, so you've only got so much of a chance of being affected.

Sid De Squid wrote:

So is the same discount going to be provided to ballistic weapons? Or is there no longer going to be game balance between battery powered weapons and ballistics?

Projectile weapons are usually cheaper and do more damage. And it's easier and cheaper to carry and reload extra ammunition than it is for extra batteries.

Not really for heavy weapons at least, which a lot of soldiers or others who like them will prefer. The cost for most of the weapons between the two types is roughly equivalent, finding close comparisons is hard but in cases where you're paying more I feel you're getting more. The initial cost of batteries and the cost of the rounds is mostly the same with recharging definitely being cheaper than buying more rounds even before it was free. The damage differences are small between comparable weapons, particularly considering the 10% or more greater chance of hitting with the energy weapons.

Not all ammo has a level of one, heavy weapon ammo is level 2. Which given some of the stuff that's that low a level could be exceedingly dangerous. I'm not sure I want to see everyone using reaction cannons that either entangle with each hit or fire blast whenever someone closes. Or maybe that's the thing people need to be able to do if they'll pay for it. Either way it needs to be cleared up. I'm also curious if all the ammo fired in a shot needs to have a fusion or just one. If just one can you mix and match in guns that fire higher usages? What about things that are more fluid, literally. How does this work on a petrol tank, some of those are level 3?

I understand that they seem to be want to give some of this the proper review time. And there really are a LOT of reasonable questions. But I do wish there was more feedback on some of these questions. Even an acknowledgement that they're looking at it would no longer leave us guessing if it would be or if we needed to hash out some house rules on a gap. But I'm new to the forums, is this normal?