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1. It does work with many improved familiar options just not all. For instance any template familiar save for maybe clockwork. It also works with a few others. Such as Dire Rat and bat sootwing along with others that might fit animal descriptions. Ya you can't do it with outsiders but the point is you are Beast Bonded.

2. A larger version of itself or a similar kind of animal is a very large category so you could just be a large imp or large lantern archon with the abilities listed in bs2 or if you have a permissive GM you could argue a giant bat is like an imp or a pipefox is like a snake.

So the ability works just fine.


Okay so I am very experienced in pathfinder and a single effect of this spell (when rereading it) that stuck out oddly to me. Its the casting a spell of level 2 or lower with 1 of 4 metamagics on it. Here is the text

"
-Cast a single spell of 2nd level or lower as if it were an enlarged, extended, silent, or still spell.

These effects are not cumulative with similar effects, such as those provided by haste or a speed weapon, nor do they actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.
"

Does this spell you cast take your standard action or is it refferencing the rule stating that you may not cast more than one spell a turn unless that spell may be cast as a swift action. I have always ran it as it just enhanced your normal cast but am I wrong? Could i say cast resist energy extended then attack with my standard? I feel like the correct answer is no but I would love to see what others interpret the RAW as.


So I now know of 2 main ways to get 2 extra limbs that function on a non kasatha character and on a kasatha I know of one way to get 6 limbs.

Way 1 (easy Mode)
Get the Extra Arm Alchemist Discovery by dipping 2 levels in alchemist or going mutagen fighter, get extra discovery feat for 2nd arm.

Way 2 (hard Mode)
You take atleast 4 levels in Druid (skinshaper) and shapeshift into Kasatha for 4 limbs and +2 str, keep taking levels to make it something you can do quite often.

Now that I have proven 2 concrete ways I have these questions.
1 Can you dual wield bows?
2 Can you get attacks with TWF and Rapidshot/Manyshot
3 Is there a reason a Mutagen Fighter can't take extra discovery that I am missing?


shaventalz wrote:
DaPenguins wrote:
3. I can see your point here though I am hoping to look for a rules as written proof if possible. I have talked it over with a couple different groups and have had mixed results. I know of atleast one character who is interested in doing this with Glyph of Warding and basically using it as a way to make items to hand out to the party that are self use scrolls for 200gp. They have bought a variety of small toy boxes and books and they label them. Then they are warding them on down days to create things they can hand out to their party as healing and buff items that are one use. It is cheaper than crafting 3rd level scrolls and everyone can use it easily. He wants to add personal spells to it but some people are saying the fact that it does not target a creature it targets you that you cant do it. I have allowed the player to do it as all he is doing is shield or a couple other minor buffs but it is still something I would like to have a more official ruling on or atleast text to back up any position.

Fair enough.

However, as to that specific examples... if it does work, it's not as bad as it could be. Read the archetype more closely. The class ability doesn't last long enough to "stock up" on downtime days. And the Glyph of Warding spell specifies harmful spells. The worst they could do there would be cheap Fireball grenades that have to touch someone of a different race than the intended user.

Good catch I didn't see the harmful thing though the question then comes to be what is considered harmful. Could Cure spells be considered harmful because they can harm undead? If not then would Inflict spells beconsidered harmless because they can heal undead? It brings up an important question on if certain things would be considered harmful or not. For instances would anything that imposes a penalty be harmful such as the Rage spell even though it is generally thought of as a buff.


shaventalz wrote:

I've found two examples of intelligent first-party magic items that deal with True Strike, and they both do so in a unique manner.

Lightning Bow - as a swift action, the wielder can cast True Strike.
Helm of the Golden General - the helm affects the wearer or someone else with True Strike.

So, there's precedent for allowing an intelligent item to use personal spells on anyone, not just the wielder. Intelligent items just tend to break the rules.

Thank you for the precedent. I do notice though both of these have specific things calling out that it either cast by the wielder and thus uses the wielders actions or the spell is cast by the weapon with text stating otherwise. I do think this sets the precedent in favor of the wielder.


shaventalz wrote:
DaPenguins wrote:

Q. Can you make Personal spells into potions?

A. No. (Though occasionally I ran across a mention of some way with alchemist. Not sure if this is true.)

Personal spells cannot be made potions. This is from the item creation section on potions. I suspect the Alchemist thing you heard about was making extracts of a personal spell and using the Infusion discovery to let someone else use it. Those aren't potions, and they continue to take up one of the alchemist's daily extract slots until someone drinks them.

DaPenguins wrote:

Q. Can you make personal spells into wands?

A. I have seen nothing saying you cant it just always casts itself on the user of the wand.

There is no text in the wand creation rules regarding personal spells, unlike with potions. Furthermore, the random treasure tables in the back of Ultimate Equipment list several Personal-range wands. They're legal.

DaPenguins wrote:

Q. Do personal spells "target one or more creatures"? this is specifically in relation to abilities which can only be used on abilities which use spells which "target one or more creatures".

A. None found.
I don't have any firm sources for this one, but it seems reasonable to me that the caster is indeed a person. Also, the "Target" entry for personal spells is "You", meaning it does actually have a target. Contrast this to spells like Identify, which have no target and only an effect. My reading would be that stuff like True Strike targets (one) creature, while Identify and the like do not.

1. Thank you this was likely what I was seeing about alchemists passing off their extracts of personal spells for others to use.

2. Thank you I was looking for something confirming that they can be made and wands with personal spells on them clearly means that they are able to be made.

3. I can see your point here though I am hoping to look for a rules as written proof if possible. I have talked it over with a couple different groups and have had mixed results. I know of atleast one character who is interested in doing this with Glyph of Warding and basically using it as a way to make items to hand out to the party that are self use scrolls for 200gp. They have bought a variety of small toy boxes and books and they label them. Then they are warding them on down days to create things they can hand out to their party as healing and buff items that are one use. It is cheaper than crafting 3rd level scrolls and everyone can use it easily. He wants to add personal spells to it but some people are saying the fact that it does not target a creature it targets you that you cant do it. I have allowed the player to do it as all he is doing is shield or a couple other minor buffs but it is still something I would like to have a more official ruling on or atleast text to back up any position.


SlimGauge wrote:
DaPenguins wrote:


Q. Do personal spells "target one or more creatures"? this is specifically in relation to abilities which can only be used on abilities which use spells which "target one or more creatures".
A. None found.

What abilities are those ?

Otherwise, might this thread be useful ?

One such ability I am reffering to is the the Stone Warder Archetype of the sorcerer. It has an ability which allows you to make a ward similar to Glyph of Warding except it can be any spell which "targets one or more creatures". Glyph of Warding itself might be another such ability/spell. One such use would be using Glyph of warding with the old Skinsend trick alchemist's can due though both ways would give saves now.


So I have had a few questions about personal spells recently brought up by both my players and by some of my own reading. I have read up as best I can on the subject but I would like some clarification on things. Below are my questions and if I have answers I have found I will have them accompany the questions.

Q. Can you make Personal spells into potions?
A. No. (Though occasionally I ran across a mention of some way with alchemist. Not sure if this is true.)

Q. Can you make personal spells into wands?
A. I have seen nothing saying you cant it just always casts itself on the user of the wand.

Q. Do personal spells "target one or more creatures"? this is specifically in relation to abilities which can only be used on abilities which use spells which "target one or more creatures".
A. None found.

Q. Can personal spells be cast from an intelligent item on the wielder of the item or is it cast on the item itself?
A. None found but from the looks of it the Item would cast it on itself not on the wielder as the item can count as a target if it is intelligent.

Any help would be greatly appreciated I am solely hoping for official paizo stuff and if certain things need to have some abilities or something to work I would like to know how it would work.


A few things to get out of the way first. This post is made with the assumption that Spring Attack was able to be gotten without any prerequisites (there is at least 1 way I know), second it is under the assumption that bull rush can not naturally be swapped for the one attack you receive, thirdly it is under the assumption that you have in excess of 60ft of base movement. (Not to terribly hard at mid level)

Here is what I would like to know

1: How does Spring Attack interact with the following Feats? On those which normally would let you move with the target can you move with the target as part of the bull rush then continue your movement afterwards with the rest of spring attack?
a.)Quick Bull Rush
b.)Bull Rush Strike
c.)Shield Slam

2: How would spring attack interact with Bull Rush like manuevers such as:
a.) Awesome Blow
b.) Unchained Monk Knockback Kick


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Growth in Ash:
When you succeed at a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire, or when you cease taking ongoing fire damage from a spell or effect, you can smear ash on yourself as an immediate action to gain fast healing 1 for 3 rounds. For every Hit Die you have beyond 3, extend the duration of this fast healing by an additional round.

Above is the text of growth in ash, so what I was wondering is does this feat allow for out of combat infinite healing? This seems like a really powerful feat if so. Basically there are some mundane situations where you can catch on fire that can easily be reproduced in a safe environment and with 5 points of fire resist or more you don't care about the small risk of catching on fire. Even without the fire resist a mid level dex based character will only fail on a 1 or 2 for the catch on fire. So what is stopping a character with a +14 or 15 from purposefully putting themselves in situations where they would need to make a save to catch on fire and when they succeed their save they get 3-20 points of healing over 3-20 rounds.


2bz2p wrote:
I agree. Your turn is when you make a selection on your initiative and if that selection is to delay, that's still the start of your "turn". Anything based on that moment, duration of spell, save for continuous effects, delay count on Delayed Fireball, remains at the start of your turn. You cannot delay action indefinitely to avoid poison effects,so it seems clear you cannot delay indefinitely to maintain any other effects either. The delay action IS, effectively, starting your turn.

Well thats the thing it can't effectively start your turn it either does or does not which this heavily implies it does but because it seems to start your turn it begs the question of when does your turn end as there are effects which occur at the end of your turn or last till the end of your turn. So that portion of the question remains unanswered


bbangerter wrote:

This FAQ is instructive in intent. Although the FAQ is only talking about poisons, what we should probably take from that is that any effect that lasts till your next turn, or triggers on your next turn, etc, should really be read as going off the next time the init order reaches the same number as the init order it was set up on. Which in 99% of cases will be identical to the creatures next turn.

Or in other words, the phrase "start of the creatures next turn" was written from the general case, and delayed actions was not considered.

To properly fix RAW to match RAI, delayed actions text should have additional errata stating that triggers based off a characters next turn can not be delayed by the delay action.

This is by far the best answer so far as it does seem to imply your turn starts when you delay however there are still the follow up points which need to be addressed such as when a turn ends if it is delayed, and does everything that occurs between the start and end of your turn count as on your turn?

This does seem to answer that your turn does indeed start on your original initiative.


So this is very much an arguement of semantics and I am 100% sure RAI would not work. The scenario here is and Questions are purely meant to use RAW.

Delayed Action:

Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action).

Initiative Consequences of Delaying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

This seems pretty straight forward and useful in quite a few circumstances but not powerful in any way. However it seems to mean that you never start your turn on the original initiative score and only start your turn on the new initiative score. Now whichever way you interpret this has unintended consequences as there are effects that occur at the start of your turn and effects that last till the start of your next turn.

So here are some abilities/feats/actions it matters alot for and your interpretation changes how it might be used.

Power Attack - This says these bonuses and penalties last until your next turn. If your turn begins on your normal initiative then theoretically any attacks you make between your origional and new initiatives are not modified by Power Attack.

Charge - This says you take a -2 to AC till the start of your next turn, if you turn does not start the -2 lasts till your new initiative however if it does start then your initiative goes up despite you taking no actions.

Now these both seem like low yield cases generally and I feel like these are not a big enough deal to FAQ over however some of the other effects and implications are much more powerful and important to know how they stand.

One big example is Destructive Dispel which has the following text.

Destructive Dispel:

When you successfully make a targeted dispel check against an opponent, that opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equals the DC of the spell used to dispel) or be stunned until the start of your next turn. If the save succeeds, the opponent is instead sickened until the start of your next turn.

So lets say you manage to get a solo monster to fail the fort save after a targeted dispel, they are stunned and all you might have to do is delay your action to keep them perma stunned.

Here would also be an example of a way to just be able to take one extra turn away from the monster.
Initiative round 1 - You:18, Monster 15, Ally1: 10
Round 1 you dispel effect on monster and monster fails fort save. Monster is stunned and takes no action. Ally does something.

Round 2 you decide to delay initiative to a 12, new initiative is - Monster:15, You:12, Ally1:10
Monster goes first but if your turn has not started he is stunned and does nothing. You go, monster is no longer stunned, you get to act normally. Ally1 gets a turn.

So my questions are as follows.
1. When you delay does your turn start on your original initiative or on your new initiative?
2. If you delay a full turn taking no actions and return to your original initiative and delay again do you begin either of your turns?
3. a. If your turn begins on your original initiative when you delay when does your turn end?
3. b. If it lasts only till the end of that initiative do things which trigger at end of turn have the potential to trigger twice in a round?
3. c. If it ends at the end of your new initiative does all turns between those two initiatives count as happening on your turn?


So these two feats provide a few odd interactions with different abilities.
The feats read as follows

Empty Quiver Style and Flexibility:
Empty Quiver Style
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using this style, you can make melee attacks with the chosen weapon as if it were a heavy mace (or a light mace for melee attack made with a hand crossbow or one-handed firearm), though you don’t automatically threaten the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon.

You can switch between melee and ranged attacks with this weapon without penalty, even during the same round. In addition, you ignore the elf prerequisite for the Stabbing Shot feat.

If you have the Stabbing Shot feat, you can use it with a crossbow or firearm, substituting a loaded bolt or firearm ammunition for an arrow.

Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (bows, crossbows, or firearms) class feature can use Empty Quiver Style with any bow, crossbow, or firearm, respectively.

Empty Quiver Flexibility
Prerequisite(s): Empty Quiver Style, Rapid Shot, Stabbing Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Empty Quiver Style, you can apply any feats and class abilities you possess that modify your ranged attack rolls and damage rolls with the chosen weapon to melee attack rolls and damage rolls made with that weapon. Additionally, you are considered to be threatening the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon.


So the important two lines between them are "you can make melee attacks with the chosen weapon as if it were a heavy mace" and "you can apply any feats and class abilities you possess that modify your ranged attack rolls and damage rolls with the chosen weapon to melee attack rolls and damage rolls made with that weapon."

Question 1: Can you use both Deadly Aim and Power Attack on melee attacks with your 'chosen weapon'?
Question 2: Can you use feats like rapid shot to melee attacks with this line?
Question 3: If you have weapon training with both Heavy Mace and Bows then do you get to apply both to melee attacks?
Question 4/5: Can you take both Weapon Focus Longbow and Weapon Focus Heavy Mace and apply them both to melee attack rolls? Would the same apply to the rest of the Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus line?


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
There's a reason the natural attacks by size table has an "Other" entry. This is it.

Yes but a fun fact about that, if you classify it as a natural attack that means that you get an attack which deals damage in addition to everything else the feat provides. Which is simply not the case. There is nothing stating it is a natural attack of any kind in the feat and if it were then feral combat training would work for it.

Cavall wrote:

"A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."

Not "ANY PART" and not tongue.

You are absolutely right the attacks may be with "fist, elbows, knees, and feet" however in flurry of blows it also says "A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows." And because the feat allows you to make disarm maneuvers with it you should be able to use it.


Paradozen wrote:
Fun Fact, the CRB has epic level rules that (sort of) cover this.** spoiler omitted **
...

Thank you this is literally exactly what I was hoping to find. Thank you for this rules text which confirms what I hoped would work.


GM Rednal wrote:

I don't think I've seen a definitive ruling either way, but honestly, by the time you're high enough in level for it to matter, it's not likely to make a big difference anyway. XD I mean, an additional one or two bonus versus fear isn't exactly game-breaking, you know?

Furthermore, most such bonuses come from items - you know, something you've invested your character's wealth into either obtaining or keeping. I'm not terribly fond of things that render your character's gear worthless when you're past a certain point, so I'm generally in favor of allowing it in at least most circumstances. I'd still check it case-by-case, though.

Except a +1-2 to initiative and all will saves is somewhat important as you can get bravery bonus to Initiative through the feat Bravery in Action and through the fighter advanced weapon training Armed Bravery.


Emperor4Hire wrote:

Hi,

I'm building a grippli monk for PFS and I need some rules clarifications.

Ideally I want to take Agile Tongue and then Improved Disarm with the intent of using Flurry of Blows to be able to trip and disarm opponents (I already have Improved Trip). The idea being I can trip opponents who are adjacent and have a reach disarm.

My question is: Can I use my tongue as part of a Flurry of Blows?

The existence of the Feral Combat Training feat would imply that I can't (as that feat makes it possible to use a natural attack as part of a flurry) HOWEVER I can't find any rules that state that a tongue counts as a natural attack.

Some clarification would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Agile tongue as written is not a natural attack, however this is not the important issue. The important issue is the wording of Flurry of Blows.

Part of the Text of FoB:
A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Here are the important things to note here. The Agile Tongue feat in no way qualifies it as a weapon (of any kind) and it allows you to make steal or disarm combat maneuvers at 10 feet. Flurry of blows says you may substitute these attacks for disarm, sunder and trip combat maneuvers, but no weapon may be used for them other than unarmed strikes or a monk weapon may be used.

RAW I believe you can do this, I am not sure if personally I would allow this but from what I can tell it should work RAW. However in PFS I would be very cautious about doing this as I see many DMs seeing it different ways.


Okay so here is my question and as far as I have seen there is no definitive answer on this. If there is please link me it.

If you have items or abilities which allow you to count as x levels higher in y class for x ability can your level + x be higher than 20?

I know many abilities have lines like to a maximum of +x at level 19 or 20 but this is more for abilities which do not have that line. For instance Bravery.

Text of Bravery:
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

So if you had an item like Sash of the War Champion and/or Band of the Stalwart Warrior would you be able to have a +6 or +7 bravery bonus at level 20?

Let me be clear, I am not looking for weighing in on things which go off tables which don't go above 20 I am looking for a consensus on things which scale linearly to level. So the Monk with Monk's Robes argument does not exactly work here as it is based off a table which does not address level 21+.

Here are the reasons I believe you should be able to do this.
-There are abilities which do call out maximums at certain levels such as the Cavalier's Challenge ability which can be used "a maximum of seven times per day at level 19"
-There are abilities which specifically call out levels which they improve instead of listing a progression. Trap Sense from the rogue for instance. It calls out each level individually where it improves rather than saying at level three and every three levels after.
-There are means of increasing some of these abilities past what would be their normal maximum through items such as items which give flat bonuses to weapon training with Gloves of Dueling.
-There is nothing in the rules to indicate that you can't
-This might have been a way to make certain abilities a little better by not capping them as you get into high levels.

Here are the reasons I believe it should not be allowed.
-It could lead to some very unintended consequences for SLA, SU, and EX abilities which base their DC off of 'class level'
-It feels like this may have been a writing oversight or simply a means of saving space when writing the book.
-This seems to break the normal rule of you can't take more than 20 levels in a given class. (Though you are not taking more levels just increasing your effective levels)

Thoughts and Opinions welcome please discuss and if you want this to be answered pop that FAQ button.


Okay so I saw only one thread address this and at the time no tiny plants existed according to the poster. Well now at least 1 tiny plant exists and as I am interested in playing a dex based treesinger I kinda would love to know what ability score changes are given when you take on the shape of a tiny plant as they are not listed in plant shape 1,2, or 3.


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So I have recently been looking through quite alot of things and I have come up with a build I desperately want to play. I want the following things for this build.
1. I want to play a fighter Eldritch Gaurdian (preferably with Mutagen Warrior archetype as well but not needed)
2. My familiar must take the Mauler Archetype.
3. My familiar should be flying unless you have a damn good reason not to.
4. I want to be able to mount my Familiar by level 3 and ride around on it during combat.

So now regarding a few other things. I am assuming a 20pt buy and either core races preferred but featured races are allowed. I want to keep full progression of my familiar as well.

Here is my initial idea
Gnome, Eldritch Guardian/Mutagen Warrior (Fighter)
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 9
with an Owl Familiar (Could be hawk both are nearly the same)
I take one of the many traits that give me ride as a class skill again and a +1 to it along with some other trait.
Pick up a lance and take mounted combat at 1 and ride by at 3 then spirited charge at 4 then power attack at 5. After that I was thinking weapon focus and specialization lines.
The owl at level 3 would be medium whenever I wish and have a strength of 17 unless I did some math wrong somewhere which would let it carry a gnome with mild gear while still being on a light load. Anyone interested in tossing me some ideas? (This does not need to be PFS legal just please no 3.5 or third party stuff.)


Link2000 wrote:
DaPenguins wrote:


Masterwork Transformation is one of the reasons I asked about the spells thing. For instance if Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon work on it and they have the same wording for the targeting as Masterwork Transformation it would stand to reason that Masterwork Transformation should work on them as well, after all if an Item is a weapon for one type of spell (which does not specify a certain type of weapon) then it should be considered a weapon for all spells.

I think the issue I can see coming up would be that most improvised weapons are tools of sorts, so many people against the idea will say that the Masterwork Transformation must be used to upgrade it as a tool.

Sadly still in the realm of GM fiat, I did hit the FAQ praying for something to either make my dreams reality or crush them outright. It's that middle ground that's got me all bothered.

While you are right, what about all the improvised weapons which would not be considered Tools or Skill Kits? A metal Chamber Pot, or a Slab of Iron or an Ingot of Iron, Heck even a sizable Rock. While that idea of oh it has to be used as a skill item/tool does not hold up because there are plenty of things that could be used as an improvised weapon without being tools or skill kits. Not to mention the caster of a spell usually gets to choose all aspects of the spell especially when an object can be classified as two things. (The klar for instance)


Link2000 wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:
Yorien wrote:
  • Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
    Yes. An improvised weapon is still a weapon.

No. To be enchanted as a weapon, an item must first be a MASTERWORK weapon, not simply a masterwork item.

While this alarm clock might be a masterwork mithral alarm clock, that does not make it enchantable as a weapon.

That makes me wonder, could "Masterwork Transformation" turn an improvised weapon into a masterwork improvised weapon assuming you pay the 300gp for it?

I've seen this argument too many times to count. It makes my Gravedigger sad that there's no official ruling at the moment. Though I've never thought of Masterwork Transformation until now.

Masterwork Transformation is one of the reasons I asked about the spells thing. For instance if Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon work on it and they have the same wording for the targeting as Masterwork Transformation it would stand to reason that Masterwork Transformation should work on them as well, after all if an Item is a weapon for one type of spell (which does not specify a certain type of weapon) then it should be considered a weapon for all spells.


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So I have looked through the rules questions board many times for everything I can find on improvised weapons either being or not being weapons for a variety of purposes, ranging from feats, to class abilities, to magic, and to enchanting. This is something that as of yet has had no official or convincing response that I could find. This post will hopefully get FAQed enough to get an official response.

Here are the big questions which I see as most important for improvised weapons.

What can be classified as an improvised weapon?
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for all purposes?
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for the purposes of spells which must target an individual weapon such as Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon?
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for class abilities which require a weapon such as Paladin's bond or Magus' spellstrike ability?
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of Feats which require a weapon to use such as Arcane Strike?

Evidence I have found on Improvised Weapons.

Base Rules:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Proficiency Rules:
Most character classes are proficient with all simple weapons. Combat-oriented classes such as barbarians, cavaliers, and fighters are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons they gain from their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon.

Improvised Defense Trait:
Whenever you wield an improvised weapon, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. If you use the improvised weapon to attack, you lose this shield bonus until the beginning of your next turn. (From PPC Bastards of Galorion)

Living Grimoire Archetype Holy Book Ability:
Holy Book (Su)

At 1st (level, a living grimoire forms a supernatural bond with a large ironbound tome containing the holy text of his deity and learns to use it as a weapon.

When wielding the holy book as a weapon, he deals base damage as if it were a cold iron light mace (but see Sacred Word below), is considered proficient with the book, takes no improvised weapon penalty, and gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with the book. The tome serves as his holy symbol and divine focus, and can be enchanted as a magic weapon.

He can replace his bonded tome with another book at any time, though he must perform a 24-hour binding ritual to attune himself to the new book. (From Pathfinder Roleplaying game Horror Adventures)

Here is my reasoning on the questions above. Only items which could be used in combat can be considered improvised weapons, that means that things such as paper or a loaf of bread would not work however most things made of metal could count along with many things made of wood or other hard objects. Weapons and Armor are the only items with apparent Proficiency rules and as we are clearly not talking about armor and since non-proficiency is the reason for the -4 to hit it would come to reason that they are weapons for atleast some purposes as they are considered weapons for proficiency reasons. Improvised Weapons must also be considered improvised weapons even when not being actively used as weapons otherwise the trait Improved Defense would do absolutely nothing.

Please feel free to debate these issues here and please press the FAQ button regardless of which side you believe is right if you want to have an official answer.


Andre Roy wrote:
DaPenguins wrote:
1. If you are blind you are ONLY immune to visual based illusions and nothing else.

Here I am with you 100%. If you cannot perceive the illusion, you can't be affected by it. So a blind character (regardless of how he is not seeing) would be immune to visual-only illusion. If the illusion has a tactile or audible component, then the other sense would "overide" the immunity.

I would also exent this idea to Audible illusion not affecting someone who is deaf.

DaPenguins wrote:
2. You are considered to be blind if you make a conscious effort to keep your eyes closed or block your vision. (Think of it as improved averting gaze for gaze attacks.)

This is trickier. I agree with the core premise that making a concious effort to close your eyes to avoid gaze attack or illusion is a viable option. However, it's also distracting, as you need to concentrate and focus on not opening your eyes, especially if there a new sounds or under pain. So I could easily see having an aditional penalty for this distraction.

A blindfold would be a more efficient way to achieve this goal, despite the odd chance of accidentally slipping off.

DaPenguins wrote:
3. Blindness can be useful.
Yes, under certain condition, but not enough to make it something I would want to use as it's penalty still overweights the advantages you get.

So Cool I got no beef with how you interpret 1 or 2 but assume you can count closing your eyes on just your turn it reduces mirror image to displacement with no other penalties on your turn really, as long as you open your eyes back up before you end your turn which should be a free action then guess what. Instead of your 2-4 attacks being at a 1 in five or nine chance of hitting your mark to a 1 in 2 shot of hitting your mark on every hit. This is true it is only a single use of it but considering how many monsters at high level have this spell and how important it is to casters well... It feels worthwhile. As for the penalties for closing your eyes only on your turn it means you dont move more than half speed and have a 50% miss chance. No penalty on attack rolls other than that 50% miss chance and no penalty on damage. Really I don't see any massive penalties save for the massive AC penalties.


So first things first. There are three ways to 'blind' yourself in theory that are all temporary,
1 Put a blindfold over your eyes (Move action if you wear it as a bandana most of the time
2 Close your eyes (Some will tell me this does not work but here is my reason for believing it does. Blinded Blade Style ) If you don't think this works fine with me, ignore this way.
3 not have darkvision in a place with no light. Also slightly shaky ground but a possible way depending on GM.

Second and this is something I have read several posts on and have yet to see a definitive answer and I would love to get something more solid. Does being blind make you immune to illusions? I am almost 100% sure it does not make you immune to ALL illusions however it definitely makes you immune to a great deal of them specifically ones which rely on sight. Heck it even kinda makes you immune to invisibility because if you are blind you already cant see them... What I more ask here is is there a hard and fast rule in the blinded condition or being blind that says it gives you immunity to illusions. I know many people refference the Ooze creature type which says Oozes are blind and immune to illusions but if you finish that sentence it says "that are based on sight." Does this mean people have been reading Ooze wrong or am I reading it wrong?

Third and here is where I feel this thread will differ from the others. Blinded can be helpful in combat. Okay so not all that helpful but in niche areas it can make a fight much easier. Mirror Image an all to popular spell can make you only have a 1 in 9 chance of hitting your target, or a 1 in 2 chance if it is about to run out. Well what if for all attacks from everyone in melee you just make it act as displacement by closing your eyes. You open them at the end of your turn so you don't have the penalties outside of your turn. Or if you are facing an illusionist who uses spells like prismatic spray and color spray and other glamer/figment effects. You close your eyes when it is not your turn and open them on your turn. Oh no you loose AOOs and AC I say that can be a price worth paying for not being useless in combat for several rounds. Now this downgrades in usefulness if you don't like the whole close your eyes makes you blind thing.

So now that I have laid out my ideas here I want to know what people think of the following assertions.
1. If you are blind you are ONLY immune to visual based illusions and nothing else.
2. You are considered to be blind if you make a conscious effort to keep your eyes closed or block your vision. (Think of it as improved averting gaze for gaze attacks.)
3. Blindness can be useful.
Do you agree or disagree with anything presented above? These three statements I made are a TLDR and the highlights of things I want talked about.


Okay so this is probably a case of poorly done wording causing things to work together which were not intended to. So path of glory reads as follows

Spoiler:
You cause four 5-foot squares (one of which must be your space) to glow with dim illumination. Starting on your next turn, as a swift action you can extend the glowing area by an additional four 5-foot squares; each new square must be adjacent to a square that was previously glowing. Allies that end their turns on a glowing square (including one who falls unconscious in the square) are healed of 1 point of damage.

and Celestial Totem Lesser reads as follows

Spoiler:
While raging, the barbarian benefits from increased magical healing. Whenever she is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, she heals 1 additional point of damage per caster level. In the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), she heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing. This does not affect fast healing or regeneration.

Now I pose this question. Does the celestial totem lesser amplify the healing produced on each turn of Path of Glory or does it not work with it. Path of glory is definately NOT fast healing otherwise it would mention those words. Also fast healing occurs at the beginning of the turn not the end so changing it would change how the spell works. I would not be bringing this up save for the fact that BOTH of these abilities are available to a level 4 skald, which he can share them with his party. So assuming it would work that would be 20 points of healing to each person who starts in the squares that start their turns in the glowing squares on round one and 15 to those that get in on round 2. This compounds itself with each level. Level 5 turns into 30 for the first rounders and 24 for the second rounders. Now yes it costs alot of rounds of bardic performance right? Not really, what if you have lingering performance (as many skalds do) then guess what for 2 rounds of performance and a second level spell you heal most of the party for 20 at level 4, granted that is only out of combat healing but still.

So to be clear, here are the things I wish for this thread to discuss.
1. Do these two affects work with each other RAW?
2. Is this as powerful as I think it is?
3. Should either of these two receive an errata if so which one needs to be clarified?

Links to the PFSRD version of each of the above abilities below.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/path-of-glory
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo--- rage-powers/celestial-totem-lesser-su


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about all of it.

The key thing in your strategy is "fairly flexible DM". I do consider myself fairly flexible.. Flexible enough to head off cheese by fine tuning text interpretations as appropriate.

This is a good example of the dangers of using an archetype like this without the inworld baggage it was designed around... the fact that you pretty much have to be a fully programmed Razmiran priest to have access.

Okay but even looking at him as a 'deity' Rasmir atleast appears to be open the the idea of acquiring wealth through the sale of things and assume unholy water or raising dead for a low cost to cause adventurers to throw 4 thousand gold at them instead of the normal 5k plus casting cost. So that way he gains even more wealth. Might not break an economy that way but still insanely powerful.

Edit
Also in regards to a flexible gm I was more referring to allowing clerics to make scrolls of spells they have and count them as divine spell trigger items instead of arcane.


CWheezy wrote:
Yep, it is a pretty powerful archtype!. The only point i can make is that you have to invest in the material component for the scroll, ie a raise dead scroll costs an extra 5k

Isnt that just added into the scroll cost on top of the scroll when it is created? I got that info from the d20PFSRD here was the text of it. It is on the magic items page not the scrolls page

Spoiler:

To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll: 12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)


Sorry misread your post I see what you mean


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about all of it.

Could you explain that? I honestly dont know what part of this would not work.


So while looking over sorcerer I found the false priest archetype and I have not heard of any broken things being done with this yet at level 9 I believe it allows for a very high potential for making money and I want to make sure this works.
This is the false priest archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---so rcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest
This archetype gives this ability in place of your 9th level bloodline power that reads as follows

Spoiler:
"At 9th level, the false priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended."

Now unless I am mistaken spell completion items, such as scrolls, are made with the expensive material components already inside them thus making them free to use. So the lowest level spell I can find that literally gains you money is bless water. This is because it creates holy water which can be sold for 12 gold. Granted this is a low power usage of this ability there are other abilities which could cause greater issues for economies with other spells. Ignoring the level 12 I can raise people from the dead for free with Raise Dead Scroll if you are playing in a game with a somewhat flexible GM you might be able to commission 3 scrolls of masterwork transformation (1 for each version of it) from a cleric then it would be a divine spell. I am unsure if this use of it would work however even if it does not there are still several powerful usages of this ability.

Just to list off a few of the spells that would be 'free' to cast (for sure as they are not on the wizard list) This list only includes spells which have a material component. This looks at only cleric and druid spells which are not in combat spells usually.

Spoiler:

Level 1
Bless Water
Curse Water
Level 2
Consecrate
Desecrate
Ironskin
Level 3
Glyph of Warding
Nap Stack
Glyph of Healing (Out of combat cure moderate mass for a 4th level spell not bad plus able to prepare it the day ahead of time.)
Waters of Maddening
Level 4
Divination
Restoration
Level 5
Atonement
Commune
Hallow
Raise Dead
Unhallow
Awaken
Level 6
Forbiddance
Glyph of Warding Greater
Level 7
Greater Restoration
Ressurrection
Level 8
None without a flexible GM to allow scrolls to be made as divine even if they are on a wizard list

If I am wrong about any of this please let me know.


CBDunkerson wrote:

I think the +7 damage (at 14th) from Lethal Grace would only apply to the shield bash attacks. Fist of the Avenger would give +5 damage to the kicks. AoMF would benefit everything except the shield attacks. Shield attacks would get +2 from 14 strength, everything else would be +1. So;

Shield: +9
Kick: +11
Other: +6

Multiattack to reduce the natural weapon attack penalties (from -5 to -2) would probably be a good idea.

Why would the natural attacks not benefit from them?

Weapon Finesse states it works with natural attacks and unarmed strikes are considered light weapon.
While lethal grace says it provides the bonuses to any attack you use dex for your to hit and str for damage.


That is where the Fist of the Avenger and the Shield of Fury Vigilante talents come in. Fist of the Avenger gives improved unarmed strike plus some extra damage on unarmed strikes while shield of fury gives shield bash and two weapon fighting at level 6 and you dont need to meet dex requirements for ImprovedTWF and GreaterTWF. But yes you understood correctly. I do understand all of them are secondary natural attacks. I planned on also taking the vigilante talent Lethal grace and weilding a light shield so I get dex to hit and add half my vigilante level on damage for all these attacks. So at level 14 I would be looking at a +7 to damage from class and a +5 mighty fists amulet Plus atleast a 14 strength so I got a +13 on damage on most of my attacks and some of them get higher than that.

Edited: Corrected final number


Okay so I am working on a vigilante Avenger and am building them as a Wildsoul Ursine Path. I decided to build an Aasimar so that by level 11 I would be able to get metallic wings and have 5 natural attacks. 2 claws 1 bite and 2 wings. Looking through items I decided adding an additional attack would be nice so I picked up Helm of the mammoth lord to add in a 1d6 gore attack, bringing my total attacks up to six. So far so good right? Well here is where the tricky part comes in. There are two other abilities that the vigilante can choose from his vigilante talents. Fist of the Avenger and Shield of Fury. I take these at level 4 and 8 respectively.

Using a shield in one hand and an unarmed kick you would be able to two weapon fight while getting your full natural attack list minus the claw attack for the shield. This levels you out at 9 attacks at level 11 not counting improved twf or greater twf (as you would need to do alot of retraining to do this). Give yourself till level 15 you can easily pick up the two additional feats and bam 11 attacks without haste. I have not done damage calculations on this and honestly it might not work out to better than other characters but I just wanted to see if you all thought this might work.

I know there is still some argument about how unarmed strikes interact with natural attacks so I present you a line from the combat section of the PFSRD

Spoiler:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.

Now I want to know, does this work why or why not? If people want to try to build and number crunch this or a similar build I would also love to see what kinda damage this character averages.