Czrenobog's page

They're not much better, if at all. The argument would be: Charisma is a more useful secondary stat than intelligence, because it modifies a whole host of social skills.

And Forgotten Trick is a better talent than anything rogues get.

-Cross

If a rogue can get any Ninja Trick they qualify for, they could in theory get Ki and the Forgotten Trick unless I'm missing something.

I see a lot of people say Ninja > Rogue.

Sell me on it.

Explain why the Ninja is better. As I see it, the only things Ninja get over Rogue is EWP and an extra attack using Ki. Rogues are up on Evasion and Trapfinding.

No the katana is not finessable, which is why it's a Str based ninja.

I wasn't sure what Alejandro was alluding to, not you. I am just making sure that someone using a Katana or ECB doesn't dump a feat on Piranha Strike and then can't use it since his weapon isn't light.

Quote:

I think It would be neat for high level 7-11 characters to be pulled aside in the course of a mission and meet one of the ten and be given a side mission or goal to complete over a single scenario or several scenarios and then be given some cool boon of some sort be it a item some knowledge, a type of previously unkown spell or something cool that modifies a companion.

You should play through Eyes of the Ten...

Yeessss... yes... play this game. It's amazing. Phenomenal. Epic in every sense of the word, a saga written by the bards that will ring throughout the ages.

Seriously. Play this.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I'm sorry, but Alejandro's build is fairly terrible. You waste points in Str so you can take Power Attack. Just build a Str-based rogue. Youc an get similar AC, and eventually all of your Dex-based skills will be more than high enough. Plus, if you play a ninja instead of a rogue, you can just use a katana rather than wasting a feat on the ECB.

In another thread, I posted a level 10 ninja build that does over 50 DPR. It's not the top of the DPR charts, but it's more than respectable.

I always say power attack. I meant Piranha strike. Is the Katana fineseable?

Piranha strike doesn't work on Rapiers or Katanas. The weapon must be light.

I know I'll probably get drowned out, but I love evasion. Especially as a front liner. It's one of the primary reasons I go Rogue over Ninja. Evasion has saved my life so many times, especially on lower hit point builds.

Hey all, I'm soon to be joining my first ever game of Pathfinder (or any tabletop RPG, for that matter) and I need some advice on how to build the Rogue I'm hoping to play.

I want to be something akin to a fencer, quick on his feet, in and out of the melee. I want to avoid TWF, because that seems to be the standard way of getting the most out of a rogue in combat, and I want to do something more... creative? Unusual? I dunno, something that isn't seen as often. That said, I also don't care so much about creativity that I'm willing to sacrifice significant combat ability for it. Planning ahead, the rogue talents I've largely dedicated to making my out of combat rogue skills more efficient, except for Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training (which I intend to use for Rapier), although Deadly Sneak, Fast Tumble, and Bleeding Attack are all tempting.

The feats, however, I'm not sure on. So far the only ones I've been keeping fairly firmly are Dodge, Mobility, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. I want other skills that compliment disabling opponents, keeping them flat-footed, and navigating the battlefield so I can sneak attack them. I was thinking stuff like Agile Maneuvers + the Trip tree, Repositioning Strike, Sneaking Precision, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Blinding Critical, and Tripping Strike to tie together the Critical and Trip feats. But as I've never played before, I'm not sure how well it might work in combat. It might even be poor on paper, I don't know.

That pretty much wraps it up. Looking at it, I don't think I actually NEED Dodge and Mobility for prerequisites for any of these feats, so I may drop them to make for others. Maybe drop a rogue talent for Combat Trick so I can get another feat. I could also go Swashbuckler for the extra Combat Trick so I could have Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses + 10 of the feats I was considering. Obviously the campaign or the character may not last nearly that long, but I like to plan way in advance. Even if this is fine, or needs only minor...

I have this build but I've gone about it in a slightly different manner. More rogue, less not rogue.

Fighter 1 (Lorewarden)/Rogue 7 (You could take scout here, it wasn't an option when I built him)/Duelist

I went 13 Str/16 Dex/12 Con/15 Int/10 Wis/8 Cha

1:Power Attack, Dodge
3:Rogue Finesse, Dervish Dance
5:Combat Trick: Step up, Following Step
7:Mobility, Trapspotter
9:Step up and strike
11:Spring Attack

The logic here is that you'll end up with a crazy AC, decent HP, awesome damage and great mobility. I one hand attack with a crazy damage modifier, am basically untouchable (37 AC not moving, 23 Touch AC unbuffed).
11:

Hello, all.

As the subject states, I'm hoping for some advice on a mobile striker build for PFS use. I want a character that will be able to dance around the battlefield (more or less on her own), cutting a swath of death and destruction as she goes.

I've been mulling over a weapon master (fighter) with a dip in dawnflower dervish (bard) at second level to get the dervish dance feat. The dervish's battle dance and access to Expeditious Retreat would be icing on the cake with that build. I figure the Azata-blooded Aasimar is the best race for such a build. Here are the stats I'm figuring on working with:

Str: 10
Dex: 17+2
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 12+2

I was considering dropping her strength and intelligence for more dexterity and constitution, but I don't want to negative affect her CMD or skills too much.

For feats I was figuring on the Spring Attack and the Step up and Strike progressions. I'd probably throw Disorienting Maneuver and Desperate Battler in there at some point.

Here's where I need advice. Is there any way I could do what I want to do better? I was almost thinking monk for a little while, but i don't know. I'd appreciate any help you guys could give me. Thanks in advance.

I had a lot of luck with a build similar to this using Fighter 1/ Rogue 7/ Duelist the rest of the way. I have Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Step Up, Following Step and Step Up and Strike as well as Rogue Finesse, Dervish Dance, Power Attack, and Improved Critical Scimitar.

I must admit, I've retired him and taken him a little further than standard PFS, but it is still legal. Using a combination of stats, magic items etc I have AC 37, it goes a lot higher if I'm moving. My stat array was high Dexterity and Intelligence with a little bump to Constitution while penalizing my Charisma.

With this build you have a couple options, go Ranger/Bard/Duelist or Fighter/Rogue/Duelist. The Ranger Bard is going to give you a couple nice little boosts, but you'd be more like Ranger 2 (Two Handed for Power Attack), Bard 4 (Dervish Dancer) to help your feat progression.

Just some suggestions, though I've taken you off the path you were looking at.

Czrenobog wrote:

Actually 1 Bbn/10 Rogue currently.

Let's see... Power Attack, Cleave, Surprise follow through, Cleaving Finish,Raging vitality, Toughness and Improved Crit.

Then... Bleeding, trap spotter, Rogue weapon focus... Opportunist... I can't remember all the rogue tricks I took, I'll have to go back and double check.

Um...

20,

10,

14,

10,

10,

8

I think that was my point spread.

I love opportunist. Sticking with Rog, or planning on more Bbn?

Society, so I'm about to cap out. He's a worshiper of Gorum so I hope he dies in a blaze of glory. =D

Actually 1 Bbn/10 Rogue currently.

Let's see... Power Attack, Cleave, Surprise follow through, Cleaving Finish,Raging vitality, Toughness and Improved Crit.

Then... Bleeding, trap spotter, Rogue weapon focus... Opportunist... I can't remember all the rogue tricks I took, I'll have to go back and double check.

Um...

20,

10,

14,

10,

10,

8

I think that was my point spread.

I have in fact done this.

Half-Orc, Barbarian/Rogue (Scout) using a size large Bastard sword. I also threw Cleave/Suprise Follow through into the mix, as well as a bite. At level 8 you'll be doing 2 attacks plus bite with no sneak, a cleave with a sneak on the second target or move and attack with sneak. I really enjoy it and it gives you ways to get that sneak attack damage when you need it. Just watch your will save and armor class, you'll need to shore those up.

If you do society play, there are two Shoanti boons that can assist you as well as a Shoanti Feat and Trait that also increase your will save, applying all four will net you a +4 will save gain.

Make sure to get Trapspotter as well, though I recommend that for anyone with Find Traps.

It's flavorful, fun and powerful.

Edit:I didn't get spring attack, too costly. Also, HP can substitute for AC, but get raging vitality. There is also a racial trait swap that can get you another will save as well as your bite, I think you lose orc weapons and diehard.

He might get lucky on that one.

Someone might be willing to Trade a Goblin for a Grippli, assuming he is a Tier 1 GM.

I will be doing tier 1 gming, meaning vishkanya (sp?), grippli, sulis etc.

I know it's a long shot, still, I've got to try.

Want:

Goblin

Trade:

One of this years Gen Con GM boons.

Jeff Mahood wrote:

Nathan King wrote:

Per that blog post, Page three:

Mark Moreland wrote:

Hyrum Savage wrote:

Mark's going to kill me but since he's out of town until Tuesday....

Yes, this blog post is legal for PFS. You must bring a printout though to any game where a character uses one of the subdomains.

Hyrum.

Bear in mind that the deity you worship must herself be legal for PFS play.

I had to dig a little to find this. So, what it looks like, is that if you worship a god that is legal, you have access to those sub domains. However, if a god, like Lissala, is NOT legal for PFS, then those sub domains for that god are also NOT legal for PFS.

Just my two cents on it. Hope that helps.

Except that the AR quote says that the blog post is legal, but the comments aren't. Argh! ;)

I believe this comment is simply to save people from printing out the entire discussion or some random comment by some random person being construed as legal.

Remember that at a later date, the guide actually noted that all message board clarifications are legal.

As such, Mark's statement above should not be ignored, as it is a message board clarification.

If all that is true, then ignore the question about *if* she is legal and instead focus on the request to *make* her legal. =D

Looking at Mark's comments, I don't think I'll be allowing Lissala-worship at my table. I'm not sure what god I might recommend to the player to adopt as a replacement.

Depends on what they want from that god. It's one of the reasons I'm looking at Ragathiel as a possible replacement if Lissala is a no go. I'll lose the whole scourging individuals to inspire them, but ah well. Thus goes flagellation. Sometimes the act itself is what one must redeem oneself from.

Anyway, Ragathiel has a couple of the things I'm looking for in a deity sans the whip, and his flavor of being the child of Dispater and Feronia is amusing since he's a Lawful good god. Revenge and fire and brimstone and all that. May his eyes fall upon me and his wings shield me... but until then...

In all things, I obey.

Andrew Christian wrote:

I'm sorry, but just because a blog post, which has been made legal for PFS, has a list of deities, does not mean those deities are legal.

This is how I read it as well. The blog specifically says it is a list of all named deities from the inner sea world guide, common sense would dictate that you would have to check the available deities in inner sea world guide to see if they are valid. Especially since the additional resources page on blogs also says "Please note that this applies to the context of the blog post only" the context of the blog post was sub domains, not the gods themselves

Looking at all the discussion, I'm starting to get the feeling that Lissala isn't allowed intentionally. That said, I'm hoping they will then revisit her, which was the second part of my question. I've played through the plot thus far of season four, which is *why* I want to play a cleric of Lissala. If they say no, she never has been and no, she never will be, then I'll drop it and figure out a new concept. Or... I might just have to wait for the new book with empyreal lords and hope one fits the concept better than the current gods.

In all things, I obey.

As to concept, I have a fetchling boon that I've been kicking around with what to do. I finally figured it was time to blow the dust off of it and make a character.

I want to make a cleric of Lissala based on the fact that Pathfinder society has definitely roused the attention of Lissala. Her worshipers have seen individuals sent to infiltrate their cult. Lissala sees an organization of fanatical heretics who kick down the doors of innocents, slaughtering without discrimination and then claim they are simply following orders. They are obedient, willing and often times take orders that even contravene what their own gods preach. This fanatical devotion is exactly what she is looking for.

So she sends a priest of hers to scourge the impure, to whip them onto greater tasks all for the glory of the Grand Lodge. It goes neither against her tenants, in fact creating a "friendly" face to act as her representation, able to claim that the other cults are in fact false devotees, nor does it go against the societies mission statement.

The reason I created this post though is exactly what we see above, people have and are playing worshipers if not clerics of hers. We have Venture Officers arguing. I'd just like clarification before I scrap this concept and move on or create her.

In this and all things, I obey.

Dear campaign leadership,

Is Lissala legal, or can you please make her legal?

I know that this has been covered by a lot of people who spend a lot of time on the forums and they have come to a consensus. However, I have not seen leadership yet step in and say yay or nay one way or the other. Further muddling this is the fact that there is a blog post that specifically states that you can use the blog post as legality, however, without a source book listing her as valid...

Please, will someone give us a simple yes or no. With all the activity of worshippers of Lissala that are rumored to be abounding, I'd really like to play a character who worships her.

In all things, I obey.

1. Does a melee touch attack count as a melee attack for all purposes, even flanking and fainting?

2. Does a sneak attack trigger in those scenarios?
3. Is it true that you only get one free attempt to touch an opponent after you cast a touch spell? I was under the assumption that you get unlimited tries, since the charge does not dissipate.

Thank you in advance.

/swoon

I think the word you're looking for is feinting.

I had a question about the $200.00 tier... if you are naming a bar/proprietor or ship/captain, do you have any input into the personality at all or just naming?

Ah see, probably that is why i could not create a celestial viper familiar! So many people always complain about herolab, truth is, most often one just doesn´t know how to handle it.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE HEROLAB!

Amanda Holdridge wrote:

I will share an experience GMing though I will stay as vague as possible about details. (No need to upset anyone.) It involved the spell Color Spray at relatively low levels. I understand there is a lot you can do to get the save high, but have the recipient count as having fewer hit die than they actually do.

The caster in question had a combination of an incredibly high save and a very high initiative. So the combat would start, they would Color Spray, and then the combat would stop.

I just wanted to thank you for sharing this, Amanda. I've been tossing around this EXACT character build for one of my games. While I don't intend the character to be a one trick pony, your post has shown me that I need to be very careful with how I play it. I'm one of those players who has the most fun when everyone in the group has fun. So while I still intend to spam color spray half the time, I will keep in mind that shutting down every encounter wouldn't add to my or anyone else's enjoyment.

I have a build that is not an scenario breaker, but he is super effective. I play him Shadow Lodge for one simple reason. I work very closely with the Local 122 and am friends with a lot of them. This means I have a pretty deep understanding of Union rules and laws dictating their schedule. If I feel that I've been dominating the table, I'll *in character* call a union break. I will then proceed to sit down and sharpen my lady, Matilida (read: my big pretty sword). I go so far as to suss out peoples builds in character, "Oh man, you're a caster? I'm going to you for smart stuff." etc etc. I try to find who plays what build and where it's strong. If I'm dominating, I'll pull back, if we're hurting, I'll play smart. Some players *do* self regulate.

I'm not getting into the Fudge For Fun Factor Upset or FFFFu.

zefig wrote:

How about this one.

My archer can quick draw her bow, but only during surprise rounds. She also gets a +1 bonus to initiative.

Watching Taldor Qadira Regional Trait. Or Veteran of Battle Gorum Religion Trait. Same trait, two names.

>.> Used one of each on two of my characters cause it's awesome.

My impression about rebuilds in the past are that they are only used for features that can't be used anymore; such as when something becomes illegal.

Since you can still use your levels of sorcerer or your bracers of armor, I can almost guarantee that you're not going to get a rebuild.

When it comes to the Bracers of Armor +4, you could sell them for 8k and have almost enough gold to buy a Haramaki +3 for the same armor bonus and no dex max or ACP.

When playing a high dexterity character, the best armors you can wear are Celestial armor (Max AC of 17 including Dexterity bonus), Bracers of Armor which do not limit your max dexterity (effectively 8+Dexterity) or Max's suggestion (4+Dexterity and far cheaper).

Basically, if your dexterity bonus is +9 or above(28+), go those other two routes for maximum benefit. Otherwise, fly once a day, have armor that is AWESOME armor and undetectable underclothing (will still radiate magic of course).

This is sort of fun.

It's interesting that the Pathfinder Society seems to attact dirty fighting resilient reactionaries.

Sort of fun... that's saddening. Only sort of.

I knew we'd have a lot of reactionary, I was curious if any others would regularly float to the top. It's also fun reading up some traits I hadn't looked at before, both from a fluff stand point as well as a mechanical one.

EDIT: I a letter.

Thanks for this guys, it gives some great instant imagery and also let's me explore some traits I haven't look at before! Please, keep them coming.

Deadeyed Child of Nature--Half Elf Summoner

Deadeye, hadn't seen that one before, I like it. Flavorful and nice little boost.

Mike Mistele wrote:

I would totally play this module. :-D

There would be a 5-hour roleplaying section that would require players to have an elaborate Golarion based backstory that is both compelling and feasible (adopted by anything gives you an auto-fail), pronounce and spell their Faction correctly, solve a murder mystery, and answer a series of cunningly devised riddles.

Then, there would be an incredible urban dungeon complex which starts with trap that disintegrates any character with more than 2 classes or that didn't participate in the roleplaying (no save). All of the enemies in the complex would be undead, aberrations, spell casters, or outsiders, with devilishly clever tactics and unfair advantages. The players would be required to display extraordinary teamwork, courage, and the ability to adapt under pressure. Then, finally, they would face the final boss, who has the epic sword and probably a fortune witch cackling from a mile away.

Still want to play? :-P

** spoiler omitted **

I now need to go play this module, I was thinking, ME! ME! I'd even do it without the triple gold or Vorpal Sun Sword 6GP (limit 2)

I'll go first.

A Mathematical Prodigy and a Bully - Dwarf Oracle
A Reactionary Flame of the Dawnflower - Human Rogue/Duelist
He's a Tusked Veteran of Battle - Half Orc Rogue
An Excitable gnome with a Magical Lineage - Gnome Sorcerer
A Hermean Paragon who's an Armor Expert - Aasamir Paldin
Desert Shadow Watching Taldor. - Fetchling Ranger/Bard

This waiting is so frustrating in a Christmas kind of way. It's like waiting for Christmas morning when people are still alseep, but they've given you a +/- 2 week window of when Christmas day *actually* is. You're waiting for people to wake up and tell you if it is even Christmas today.

I love your product and I am looking forward to the fulfillment system, but even a hint of what is in the box under that shiny Blue Golem Wrapping Paper(when is the actual question)?

The dull roar of 11,000 neurologists walking throughout the San Diego convention center at an annual conference with brief lulls as they consume sustenance.

I now present the only way to legally play a necromancer in PFS.

/necro

Oh, and about the whole assassins being evil thing...

"All Hashashins were trained in both the art of combat as in the study of religion, believing that they were on a jihad and were religious warriors. Some consider them the Templars of Islam and, as such, also formed an order with varying degrees of initiation."

True assassins were religious zealots, so to them and their god, their actions were not evil but good. The same holds true of assassins utilized by governments and other religious institutions. If an inquisitor of Callistria assassinates a character, my opinion holds that would not be an evil act, simply a divine act. Further, this is not outside the realm of possibility within the framework of Golarion.

The prestige class is a beast unto itself, with a prerequisite of being evil that then bestows powers. Being an assassin in an active guild that grants you a day job roll does not grant powers nor does it have prerequisites outside of the PP cost to be part of the assassins guild.

To penalize a player for spending PP on a character enhancement is being a jerk and by definition of PFS, not allowed.

like Wanted (terrible movie by the way, I don't recommend it).

Read the original comic. So much was changed and missed in that movie.

It is much more a "super villian" comic than what the result from Hollywood was. Angelina Jolie's character was obviously Halle Berry, and was also obviously an analogy to Catwoman.

I think we're going to need a campaign leadership ruling on this, guys, because I can't speak for anywhere else, but in San Diego the "Pathfinder diet" is considered the resonant effect that any serious Pathfinder will get ASAP. If it was only ever intended to protect against Evil possession/control, then I personally bought it for several characters who wouldn't waste their money on it.

I don't think it was intended to do that, though, because then I think there would have been other Ioun options for Good/Law/Chaos, but there weren't.

But since this is going to immediately become a table variation war, let's just save ourselves a lot of trouble and ask for the input of the big guys.

Hey Patrick, it's Sean (Atash, Gregor etc.) I can't speak for others in San Diego, but I totally personally and have always played (and judged) it's *ONLY* a protection from evil, not neutral or good.

Yeah it was my interpretation. Thanks for pointing out the correction.

This changes quite a bit on my end as far as build goes. But I'm still wondering about optimal choices for Magical Lineage.

If you're looking for the extra damage you can go draconic/orc if you're group runs RAW. You'll end up immune to fear and with your elemental damage though you loose some other stuff, I only know this because I was hit with the change on my PFS character.

I'm guessing your looking at Spell Focus/Spell Specialization? If not, take a peak at those two when stacked up with your build.

Is your game going to be open ended, an AP, or something else? You might want to base your choice off of what level you'll be stopping at.

I'd never heard of that Wildblooded fact, Atarlost.

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature."

"A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines."

"When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline."

Thus, both archetypes alter the bloodline.

select any two Bloodlines (modified or unmodified)

The section in parentheses is your addition, not as written.

Discussed for PFS play legality in this thread.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4x4?Quick-Legal-Build-Questions-for-PFS#16

I'm really surprised no one has brought up combat patrol here.

This feat allows anyone to increases their threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. You can attack anyone within this area as an attack of opportunity, even moving to get to them if needed.

You can follow this up with Step up and Strike chain as well as a reach weapon or some sort of combat maneuver like bull rush, trip or reposition.

Since you've already stated no fighters, please disregard this, but for others reading, Spell Breaker makes this a great way to DESTROY casters when they fail concentration checks.

Testing

Ed, I'm a A/V Tech, V1 specifically and can handle and HD camera no problem if you need an operator next year. Hit me up. I'm planning on volunteering and suggesting things like more mics. I can set and operate them and did so a couple times when they had issues.

Back in the good ol' days, then VC Zizazat made this post:

Zizazat's Best Scenario Selection Order

I still like it and believe it would be fun to run through.

-Pain

This is the type of thing I'm looking for, I may have to get all those to read and then align it with some of the mods I'm looking at. Thanks Painlord!

I play in society, both at game stores and conventions. My wife and a couple of my friends are intimidated by society play however. I asked them if we played at one of our houses if they'd be interested in finding out how society works. In preparation for this I'm asking them that we play a 3 slot chronicle for my birthday to kick things off and they've all agreed. I was planning something like First Steps.

So my question is this. If you could only have one character in society but wanted to have a nice seamless story arc, what games would you play?

Some adventures I have in mind are things that include everything leading up to the Ruby Phoenix tournament and maybe if they all find them selves agreeable and liking it, leading that into Blood Under Absalom as a table some con. Also, Shades of Ice, Hersey of Man and the Devil We Know all spring to mind. I'd like a nice multi-part story arc that really immerses my players and gives them a sense of being in the world as a whole and a pivotal role in the society.

Also, can I get a hand of more experienced players and GM's mapping something like this out? Ideally, chronologically it should all fall in order. A couple adventures obviously can be broken up without damaging continuity, like Among the Living, Among the Dead and Among the Gods, but I'd like them to see the emergence of things like the Shadow lodge.

I can assist as well. I'm more than willing to play an NPC or assist with GM.

I wasn't just talking about intelligent undead. Even the mindless zombies (literally) are doing the work of the evil gods, whether that's what their direct controller intends or not.

Actually, that's another aspect to consider. Besides worship, would mortals add to the power of a god by contributing to their domain? ie Would the god of war become more powerful every time a war breaks out, even if nobody involved is fighting in his name? Does the god of art get more powerful every time a painter creates something beautiful and shares it with the world? Would those types of things count as unintentional "worship" for adding to the power of the appropriate dieties?

I don't know that in my concept a mindless undead would be actively increasing the power of a god, the controller of the mindless undead would be the ones actually increasing a gods power base. Otherwise, they'd be the same as an atheist, neither strengthening nor weakening any god.

And yes, a simple war would empower Gorum; a holy war might empower Sarenrae, Rovagug and Gorum all at once. In terms of mechanics, that's actually what I'm tossing around right now. How would the power division occur in that scenario. And Pharasma would take her toll as the dead passed through her hands, much like Charon.

An artist creating for a god would empower that god and if the art was transcending, might empower a god of art while an artist baring his soul might empower either no one or a specific god depending on his faith, pantheon and belief structure.

In this concept, the belief of the mortal is tantamount and can sway who or what might be gaining anything from his acts. A theist would appropriately strengthen or weaken a god based on his belief where as an atheist would not. It's why gods fight and vie for the souls and belief of mortals. Otherwise, what is the purpose of a god ever trying to gain a following? As to giving Gorum his due, simply the belief that he *is* the god of war, exists and is empowered by them might be enough to give him due, while an atheist simply does not believe in him so does not empower him.

Finally, this is all a mental exercise and some concepts that I am enjoying bandying about. Feel free to use them if they strike a chord or ignore them if they set your nerves on edge.

=D

Did you explain to your player that this is how they work in your game and not every game or integral to the system?

Personally I dislike cosmologies where the Gods are dependent on mortal worshipers for power and existence. It makes them seem less likes gods.

Again, this actually does not dictate that the gods are reliant on their worshipers for existence, though it does grant them *additional* powers beyond that of a god with fewer followers. In no way are they or would they be reliant on the followers to be a god or even to have a certain amount of power, instead it would act to augment said power.

Also, this isn't anything I'm currently using, it's just a mental exercise for me. =D

In society play I go by the book and in my home campaign, I'm either a player in Golarion or I'm storytelling using another system.

I disagree with you about evil gods having fewer followers. They may have less human, elf, dwarf, and halfling followers, but orcs, goblins, and kobolds, ogres, etc follow the evil gods. For that matter, I'd say undead probably count towards the following of the evil gods, as well.

Fair enough. I completely agree on the intelligent undead following evil gods if that wasn't defined well enough above. I wasn't fair in my statement that evil gods have fewer worshipers since I didn't take into account the monstrous humanoid races (man, that sounds racist) that populate the lands and underdark. I will take it into account as I continue to shape this concept.

The concept that the existence of gods is in no way reliant on worshipers, even in this vein of logic. However, the ability to act within a sphere of influence is. It would explain how dead gods, even Golarian has said they have them, would have lost the sphere of influence.

Further, worship does seem in every campaign (including Golarian unless you have some other reason to even have a classification of major and minor deities) and fantasy I've ever read to enhance or diminish a god. They would have an obvious baseline power set to simply be a god, major or minor, but it might help someone understand the wars between gods and why there are power shifts and struggles among even them.

Further extrapolation would actually show how the subversion of followers would dictate the decline in a god's power. It provides two avenues to cause the waning of a god. One would be to truly slay a god, a monumental task to be sure. The second would simply be through the decline of a power by the systematic destruction or subversion of a god's worshipers.

I'm not suggesting that this be adopted for organized play, though I personally think that would be pretty damn cool. However, if you're having problems explaining things like the power of a god, how theists and atheists effect the outcome of the gods and why they would care if anyone worships them or not, this concept is something that is easy to understand and implement. It provides a way to create holy war on a grand scale for the purposes of a campaign.

Like I stated above, I'm turning over concepts in my head and might mess with a bit if someone wanted a mechanics system. And as with any game setting, feel free to allow or disallow it in yours.

This is basically Pratchett theology.

And it does not apply in Golarion. JJ has said that the power/existence of gods is in no way dependant upon followers.

Which I regard as a good thing: gods should be ineffable.

In direct reply to you sir (I am using this term without knowledge of your gender. I don't haunt these forums often, this being I believe my second post. If offense is given, I apologize.), I haven't heard of Pratchett theology and have only read one book of his, actually co-authored by Neil Gaiman. I can only assume that he makes the assumption that a god is granted what powers he has by man himself.

If that is the case, then I'm offering forward a hybrid of this concept. A god is a god, with or without followers. A strong base of followers would in fact strengthen or weaken said god as well in this concept. It would explain how a god could be forgotten and lose the ability to interact with a world, the idea of which is even represented in Golarion. I am unfortunately at work and am either playing or running a game tonight, but once I have my books I should be able to site references. If you're eager though, I believe it's either in "Inner Sea World Guide" or "Gods and Magic", if not both.

Saved for a possible mechanics system on how worship, piety and other things might effect the font of generated energy for gods.

If of course people are interested.

Rogue 10/Duelist 6/Shadowdancer 4

Jump shadows, dart in, shadow flank, strike, dart out. Again, going with the great for a dip but bad for a full progression.

A god requires followers is known and understood universally. The why is sometimes vague so a friend of mine and I sat down and had a theological/philosophical discussion. Here is the result.
Gods pull from a power pool of some kind; this allows them to grant divine magic, perform miracles, and manifest avatars among other things. Where does this power come from? Obviously worship. But that takes so many forms.

A good god has a lot of followers and seems to gather this energy from them performing tasks in their name. Sometimes this takes the form of alms, prayers or other offerings. A good god will have a large church, giving this power in large numbers, or fanatics performing feats in the gods name from waging war to protecting and sheltering the innocent who then revere the god. An evil god generally has fewer followers, thus requires sacrifice among other forms of piety to unleash this energy. A "dead" god has no worshipers, thus no power.

A priest or a paladin is another matter. The god actually invests a fragment of itself into either the devotee or into the holy symbol, requiring it to be present to manifest the power of the gods. Think of the holy symbol almost like a conduit to the god. They can see, hear and experience the divine casters experiences through it. This would make them omnipotent where the priest is concerned but would also explain the gaps in knowledge where the god doesn’t have a following, creating a blind spot in their knowledge.

Undead would be a perversion of this power unless the god themselves are gods of undead. This explains why they resent lichdom and other intelligent undead. Unless it's a god of undead, then the perversion itself is an act of piety and grants this energy to the font the god pulls from.

So in Golarion, the star stone actually allows humans to tap into this shared essence that followers generate, giving them the ability to harness the ability, elevating an individual to godhood. While very powerful, unless they have a large, devout following, they don’t have as much energy or experience with it as other gods might. The new young gods tend to attract a large following granting them great power but they still lack the experience and haven’t had it suffuse their essence. They further haven’t been able to move between spheres of influence, making them much easier to truly kill since you only need to destroy the god in a single location, unlike other gods who may have other aspects in other universes. (Pelor on Greyhawk is remarkably similar to Sarenrae; one might even say they are different aspects of the same god. So even if you challenge her, she might be able to do a balance transfer from another aspect in another universe while Aroden couldn’t accomplish this allowing him to be slain.)

Irori was able to tap into this mass power by sheer personal understanding and exploration achieving one-ness with the universe and thus granting him access to this font of power. Having followers revere him has further granted him access to a larger pool.

Using this analogy you might be able to further speculate that this divine energy is actually finite in quantity; each individual adding to the sum total that the gods then vie for by converting followers from other gods. Gorum might gain some by having individuals slain in their proper aspect like a great bloody war. Sarenrae and Asmodeus lose a share of energy that Gorum is granted. As he spends it, he must foment more wars to further increase his power. This explains the need for souls ending in their proper place and why holy wars might erupt.

I just wanted to post up and say this was my first gaming Convention and my first Organized Play. I really enjoyed meeting new people, the gaming itself and had a blast with everyone.

Thank you for organizing it, thanks to the GM's for some amazing game play and to my companions in arms for the teamwork. It was a great time.