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Cynge's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 49 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


Most games have a timer to log out if you're not in an "inn" or equivalent building. Most don't allow you to log out if you're in combat. Most keep you in game for 5-15 minutes if you "disconnect". These are pretty much standard and I would hope that PFO would have some equivalency.

It could go further that if a criminal action was committed, you have to wait 5-15 minutes until you can initiate a logout, and then the preceding qualifiers come into play.

Also, Shadowbane had a system like what Valkenr mentioned...if you logged out or were disconnected for longer than 15 minutes (iirc) you would log back into your bind point. This was to prevent stashing alts in enemy territory as undetectable spies.

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If I'm wandering around and I snag a node that I didn't realize was in an owned hex or an owned hex that restricted such things, why should I be penalized?

Ignorance of a given law isn't an excuse...unless there is no way to find out the given law. Good rule of thumb, don't mine the node unless you know it's safe...

Now, if there's no way to view what the give laws for a settlement can be bad. I would hope there would be a way to look at a settlement's hex and see what laws are applicable to their controlled hexes.

That or, as you said, the UI that says "Hey doing that is bad"

Responses are reassuring that something is likely to be in game to support this, even if specifics aren't known yet and/or it's not immediate.

I would agree that contiguous hexes would probably be more apt to support a law system, but I would say non-contiguous should still be able to have the laws applied, even if at a cost of resources or something to penalize it...making such issues Lifedragn mentioned at least be a costly endeavor.

Of course, on that note, in Life's example Callambea would have had the benefit of a "free defense" prior to the Goons taking over...the size of Callambea, at least to me, is irrelevant. Coming from a group that is traditionally tiny...I understand that making friends and having alliances is the lifeblood of small groups in games like this, and I'm not a fan of having mechanics specifically coded to protect small groups.

Does anyone know how harvesting resources is going to be handled when doing so on territory that is claimed?

As an example, Company/Settlement A controls a hex, and someone from Company X comes in and begins to harvest resources off the land. If someone from Company A attacks them, will they be given the "attacked an innocent" flag and potentially suffer from a reputation hit?

It seems that if territory is controlled by a settlement, harvesting on that territory when you are not part of that settlement (or allied, etc) should flag you for being attackable by those people only (i.e. not free for all for everyone).

It seems that a bulk of the conversation on these boards is directed at Settlement/Company recruitment, general speculation as to what might or might not make it into the game, and other general stuff...with very little information coming out of the Alpha testers as to how things actually work. Don't get me wrong...there are spreadsheets upon spreadsheets of data, which is nice, but without an understanding of how all of that data links together it's really just data. This may be a result of their being more comprehensive data on the Alpha boards...I don't know, but it still seems to leave a gaping hole (unless I'm missing it) in certain things.

Let's take for example the Quick Start guide that GW was kind enough to put. For purposes of this post, I'll look at the fighter.


Fortitude Bonus 1, Heavy Melee Attack Bonus 1, Hit Points 1, Power 1, Trophy Charm

Implement Proficiency 1, Heavy Blade Specialization 1, Unbreakable 1

This is what is listed as the requirements to attain Fighter 1. All fine and well, and I get that for the most part. But what if you want to play a fighter and go the archer route. Does the "Heavy Melee Attack Bonus 1" represent a categorical requirement (i.e. any attack bonus qualifies) or is it specifically "heavy melee attack" and if you go the archer route you would have to train your archer skills in addition to whatever skills grant the heavy melee attack bonus? (Cleric has a similar issue with domains, and rogues with swashbuckler/cutthroat requirements.)

Also, since you can pick and choose what skills you train and the roles really exist as soft-coded do multi-roles work? If I attain Cleric 1 and Wizard I then able to cast spells from both without issue, or do I have to swap out a bunch of stuff to do so, thus eliminating/reducing the effectiveness of a character blasting in combat but tossing the occasional heal if needed?

Does this for me as well on my Galaxy S3 when using Chrome. The "internet" app functions fine though.

Chrome: 32.0.1700.99
Samsung Galaxy S3
Android: 4.1.2

Scrolling up on a PRD page jumps all the way to the top, scrolling down works fine.

Yeah I debated back and forth between going the ceiling mounted approach or aiming the projector down and bouncing off a mirror that way...

In the end there were a few factors that made me go this route:

1) To project at the size I want, my stand for the projector would up being almost 4 feet tall to get the correct throw distance (even using a mirror).

2) No good area around our game table to put said 4 foot tall projector stand without one of my gaming group inevitably knocking it over.

3) Needed a custom table with a hole in it for said plexiglass/translucent paper...that or move my current folding tables far enough apart to accommodate (in which case reaching map would be hard - we'll still be using cardboard pawns)

4) Most of us (myself especially) tend to stretch our legs out under the table more than we should...

Eventually I'd like to get an HDTV and mount it in similar fashion with a thin sheet of plexiglass over it...the only issue with that is to display at the same size I'm projecting now it would be costly.

Got any pics of your setup? I wouldn't mind seeing how you did it.

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I've had a projector sitting in my closet for over a year now...waiting to be hooked up for use in my Pathfinder games. This week I finally got around to building the framework for the display as well as the contraption (there really is no better word for it) for hanging the projector and mirror from the ceiling....

Game Table Surface

What's that? You lost your map of Sandpoint again? Fine...

It gets tested in an actual game next weekend...should be fun!

Info on the setup:
Using Roll20 as the VTT software with the following hardware:
InFocus LP120 Projector - picked up for $50 from my ex-employer's going out of business sale, projects at 1024x768 resolution (nothing fancy...but cheap!)
32'x48' Markerboard from the local big name lumber store for display surface...ran $10.51 and the surface is dry erasable (bonus!)
Wood for frame from same local big named lumber store...ran about $10...

The surface is mounted to the frame using 3M command strips for mounting frames...that way I didn't have to nail through the display and it makes it easy to remove the surface from the frame if it gets damaged, or if I want to swap it out with a different topper.

The mirror is mounted to a piece of plywood (same 3M strips) that is screwed into the ceiling...from that I have four eye-hooks for hanging the projector cradle. The cradle is just a wooden box so the projector points up at the mirror...hung using a bit of small-link chain so that I an adjust the height a bit if needed and also put it up/take it down with ease and repeatability. (Sorry no pictures of the cradle...didn't think of it at the time.)

DrizzitDoUrden wrote:
i have seen the sticky post but most of the links there are 404 error ... i would like to say good job to the community for the immediate answer;)

The original post by Gr4ys is over five years're better of working from the last page backwards. Or...

The last compiled post is on page 12 (last post on page), by BuzzardB with the dead links removed and newer posts incorporated. link

Start there and move forward, I believe most of those links are active.

Check out the Community Created Stuff sticky...there are lots of good resources in that thread.

It might be worth noting that you'll probably want to start on the last page and work backward...I believe some of the links in the first post no longer work (a con of not being able to edit posts on this forum after so long). So work backward from the last page...there are a few scattered posts with links until you get to the last "organized resources" post.

These are nice SoylentG, I'll be printing the Resources sheet as a quick reference for sure.

Trace Coburn wrote:
I think he means Varisia: Birthplace of Legends.

Hah...apparently I need to put points into reading comprehension. I see that Aeshuura had mentioned this in an earlier post. Thank you. :)

The Numerator wrote:
I haven't checked out the player companion myself, but it's on my list of "should get this once I get some cash".
Aeshuura wrote:
Where the player companion really helped me was with the map and travel times.

What is this player companion?

At first I thought it was the player's guide...but it's free so not sure how the first quote applies?

Tangent101 wrote:
What form do you think this remade undead would take? And what do you think it would do to try and get revenge on the party?

A headless horseman that terrorizes Sandpoint until the PCs come and deal with him?

Seriously though, I don't know...but I like the idea of possessing the body and leaving to torment them again later.

If nothing else, have the possession happen but be open ended with where he went to the current group of characters (i.e. they don't know). If you run the same players through another campaign that brings them to Sandpoint, the body could make a return appearance...the players would get it even if their character's didn't.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:
So they've expanded the Birdcruncher territory :-)

That's what one is hoping for I think...but it's not going to be that easy.

Butch A wrote:
If your group has done everything possible to attract attention to themselves (like exterminating two goblin tribes on the way), then I think the goblins at Thistletop should be very well prepared for their little visit.

Attention, yes. Yeah I've got a couple weeks before we meet again for an all out on beefing it up a bit is the plan (not impossible mind you, just tougher than the other tribes).

mcbobo wrote:
Alternatively, let them wipe the goblins out and get on with the AP. IMO, unless it has a Sihedron on it, it's just filler.


Sometimes the filler can be what makes a campaign. All but one of the players is a long time roleplayer (we're all new to Pathfinder)...and having a living, breathing, world is something we all enjoy.

Their trip into the Licktoad lair was cut short when they got overwhelmed...three of them were forced to leave their fighter unconscious as they beat a hasty retreat. They mounted a rescue attempt a day later to find that the lair had been abandoned...the Licktoad had moved to a secondary lair of an abandoned ship along the coast that had, in the past, been reclaimed in the Licktoad name (We Be Goblins). Sure...I could have left the lair in-tact and let them come back and decimate the remaining goblins as it was originally setup...but I don't think that would have suspended their disbelief in the way an RPG should (and I can hear their disappointed groans when they see how static the world would be).

Is it off the rails of the AP a bit...sure, but I'm not looking to interrupt things at Thistletop (maybe beef it up a bit), just seeking advice for things in the "filler" time between chapters.

thelesuit wrote:
It sounds like you need some big damn goblin heroes...

I like this...thanks :)

The waters from the Altar of Lamashtu becomes normal unholy water after an hour if I recall correctly. I'm not sure about the Runewell.

My players took samples of the Waters of Lamashtu (they have since used them) player failed a check for gathering and suffered ability damage to dex (a slightly crippled hand) and int (minor insanity). He roleplayed it pretty well...

When they entered Erylium's room, he claimed the runes on the wall said that the water they had gathered would allow them to control her if they could hit her with it. The group was amazed he could read the runes. Later, while fighting Erylium he decided that the Runewell must have healing properties so he submerged his hand into it. Chaos erupted after the rest of the party was fighting Erylium outside the room and he proceeded to head out there in a rage, saw the party fighter first and attacked him (this character was new to the group, having replaced the fighter that had previously died). The fighter turned to defend himself and struck down the offending PC...the rest of the party saw this attack, and only this attack so the distrust that followed was a very interesting development.

They have since killed Erylium and deactivated the Runewell...I'm quite amazed that no one decided to gather some of it's water, but after their experience with the Waters of Lamashtu I guess they thought the risk vs reward wasn't really there.

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Shayliss hit up the party fighter in my campaign...or what the group thought was the party fighter.

After they made a trip to the swamp and the fighter got captured (and subsequently tortured and killed) by the Licktoad goblins, the group mounted a successful rescue attempt and brought back a Faceless Stalker to Sandpoint as the party fighter.

He awoke in his room to a half-naked Shayliss that wanted to reward him properly for everything he had done to help Sandpoint and her family. They got together at least one other time after that.

During the trip into the Glassworks, and their encounter with Tsuto (who knew the fact that the fighter was actually a Faceless Stalker under Nualia's control) the Faceless Stalker turned on the party, who managed to kill him.

The post-combat realization that Shayliss hadn't slept with their fighter but instead a shape changing aberration was fairly entertaining. They are all convinced that Shayliss is pregnant with a demon spawn, which one PC has declared dibs on (something about it being a perfect fit for the mercenary group he wants to start).

My group is currently in the act of committing goblin genocide in my Rise of the Runelords campaign.

Spoiler tag because details of the campaign are've been warned.


I am running an Anniversary Edition campaign using GoB's idea of having the Licktoad and Brinestump goblins be the mites and kobolds from Kingmaker.

After the raid, the party proceeded to Brinestump marsh and killed off the Licktoad goblins. They did lose a party member in the process, but after a second trip into Brinestump managed to get rid of the Licktoad. Afterward, they befriended the Birdcruncher goblins (one PC has plans to make them into his personal mercenary group, or at least the Fodder Company).

Flash forward...and the group is on their way to Thistletop, but after looking at the map and where they need to go come to the conclusion that since they're passing by the woods that are home to the Seven Tooth Goblins they "may as well stop in and say hi". End result is the entire village of Seven Tooth is now a pile of ashes as they burned it to the ground.

Obviously, the outcome at Thistletop is going to be similar considering the focus of that goblin tribe within the campaign...but I know they discussed whether they would hit up Mosswood and get rid of them before they headed to Thistletop or wait till later (it wasn't a matter of *if* but *when*).

Now...I'm perfectly ok with all of this...the players can go where they choose and do what they want. But...knowing the player's mentalities I used Shalelu's meeting with them to foreshadow that the idea of "keeping the goblins in check and controlled is better than wiping them out...their presence here is more of a nuisance and if they were to disappear a power void would happen and who knows what might try and fill it".

Now I'm at a point where I need to figure out what I'm going to do to fill the void that the players are creating by destroying the goblin tribes. Only the Birdcruncher are going to remain after all is said and done...the rest will be dead/scattered. Any ideas on what I could use to fill the void and provide an interesting and entertaining challenge to the players who (by the time this happens) will have completed Chapter 1 of the adventure path? I haven't read far enough into Chapter 2 and beyond to know what might apply to the AP...but I'm open to anything even if it doesn't tie in if it makes for an interesting side quest. It doesn't even have to be one could be regional replacements for each clan.

TLDR Version: Players have killed off all goblins in Sandpoint area, looking for something to fill the void left to challenge the players after completing Chapter 1 of AP.

Thanks all!

Joey Virtue wrote:
No but they are cool how much did it run you on ebay

21 for the three of them.

kmal2t wrote:
I would hold on to those. IN good condition I could see them being worth something some day.

I still have one. The other two were put into the same style box and given to gaming buddies.

The Falcata...

If you make 100 swings against a target, the Falcata will have 20 chances to crit providing an opportunity for 40-320 bonus damage. On the other hand, the Katana will have 30 chances to crit but that only provides the possibility for 30-240 bonus damage.

That's based on the idea that your crit chance is a hit.

PRD wrote:
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

If you're fighting creatures with high ACs on a regular basis...the extra threat range of the Katana is nullified. This probably isn't much of a concern in normal situations.

Bearded Ben wrote:
but that doesn't factor in any abilities that trigger on a crit, which might swing the decision to the katana.

There is that to consider. What types of things might trigger on a crit?

I recently bought a set of three of these from EBay:
Special Edition TSR Dice

The seller has had them for a few years and had purchased them originally from Ebay as well, so wasn't sure of their origins. I can't seem to find anything on Google...

They are about 2" D6 dice with the TSR logo in the location of the 1. Has anyone seen these before or know where they originated (I'm assuming a con of some sort). I purchased only the dice, the treasure-chest like box this one is in was something I picked up to display them.

I've been using an online treasure generator to generate treasure for my group when they come across a large group of treasure at once. This generator says that it uses the Core Rulebook and Gamemastery Guide to generate the treasure...but i've noticed that specific items will have something like [90%, Low Quality] which adjusts the price of an item down to 90% of base. I can't find the tables for this in CRB or GMG....anyone seen these tables before (or have some that I can use)?

I'm wanting to generate qualities for specific items...while I can see from the generator what adjustment qualifies as "Low" or "Fine" I'm not sure what percentage of items I should make "Low" vs "Fine". If someone can point me to a rulebook that gives such a table...or has a table they use...I'd appreciate it.

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Aelryinth wrote:
High quality items are those that have a DC higher then 10

Can you cite the source that states DC 10 is high quality?

Aelryinth wrote:
'High Quality' is not DC 15

As per the craft rules, a high quality item has a DC 15. This is the only source that I have seen that specifically calls out High Quality and includes a DC. I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I haven't seen them.

As I said before, you've pointed out on a few occasions that any interpretation other than your own is a house rule, yet you aren't giving any credible source for this reason.

For what it's worth...I agree with part of your interpretation of Fabricate. You can't cast it twice for the same item. You can't use it to make a normal item into a masterwork item (i.e. a longsword into a masterwork longsword). I don't see anything in the spell description that denies ANY masterwork item from being created however.

EldonG wrote:
Cool, he's saying he's lenient, and that's what he'd allow. I doubt he's thought it through to the logical conclusion.

Are you saying that since the "logical conclusion" is that Fabricate can ruin an economy that means the rules state it can't create Masterwork items? That's kind of flawed. Balance issues shouldn't factor into a strict interpretation of the rules...they should factor into house ruling the crap out of it so the player wizard doesn't make a fortune.

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Aelryinth, I can respect your stance on this and for the most part you have some solid information. However, you have a hard stance that you claim is from a strict RAW angle and that "any other reasoning is a house rule". However, you seem to imply that every use of the Fabricate spell requires a craft check.

Aelryinth wrote:
To make anything with Fabricate, you have to make a craft check or the spell fails to spin your raw materials together properly.

This is not in the spell description. The spell description specifically says that a craft check is required on items requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. If it does not require such a high degree, no check is made. What can be debated is what constitutes "high degree" (as someone else mentioned).

You also take a stance that Plate is of higher quality than Chainmail. Can you show me where this is stated in the rules? I'm not asking for the DCs either, the DC defines how hard the item is to make...not it's quality. If DC defined quality, then our only point of references would be that anything of DC 15 or higher is considered "high quality" as per the Craft rules that point out "high quality item (bell)" as having a DC 15.

Assuming that DC 15 = High Quality is what is intended, then Fabricate could still create Masterwork items....but only if the original item was less than a DC 15. A chain shirt is a DC 14, so Fabricate could be used to create one of masterwork quality, requiring a single craft check on the DC 20 masterwork component.

If DC 15 != High Quality, then the only point of reference we have for quality is masterwork which means that Fabricate could create any masterwork item requiring a craft check for the masterwork component.

I happen to be of the opinion (though not a fan of the idea) that Fabricate can create Masterwork items and that this constitutes the "high degree of craftsmanship" that would then require the DC 20 masterwork check. Economy breaking? Yeah. But that's magic, it has a tendency to screw everything up.

I think no matter how we look at's a good candidate for a FAQ. Someone care to write up a post that has information clear enough (not this debate) for FAQing?


I'm the bard :D

I had a few proposed solutions to this over in the houserules forum here but my request for feedback hasn't done so well.

To explain things a bit further...

My intent would be to play a more roguish character that likes to talk a lot. I would try to establish that aspect of the character before any abilities come into play so that it isn't out of the ordinary.

Players not realizing they are getting the buffs is part of the trick...I've talked to Casien about applying the bonuses to said rolls without the players knowing, which is easy enough since the GM knows the effect of what I'm doing.

The biggest thing is the spell casting. I'd like to be able to use things like Mage Hand to open doors, or Detect Magic, without the group knowing. As stated my houserule thread, I'm not trying to be silent or unseen so much as disguise what I'm doing as something it's not.

One tripping point for the whole "at what point would a character know" is Cure Light Wounds. I discussed with him this evening the fact that I would like to use Cure Light Wounds on party members that need it when they are that when they get rested they get more HP than they would otherwise normally get. Obviously at this point the player would know something is going on...just not necessarily what. But what would the character know?

I also joked about (but if there was a way to make it work, I'd totally do it) of carrying around vials of water or other non-magical liquid and giving them to I cast Cure Light Wounds on them, and claim that it was a healing pot.

The idea is really that my bard wouldn't want to use magic and stuff openly...past issues to deal with...but would want to use it to benefit the group without them knowing. As I told the event that things come down to certain life or death situations...the character would outright do it and deal with it later, but grudgingly so.

What if you made it so you gain levels in Warrior, Mage, Priest, and Thief all independent of each other and then slotted all of the other classes into one (or more) of these....

For take a level in Warrior at the start, which you dedicate to the Fighter subclass. Later, after earning the appropriate XP you could take a level in Thief (and dedicate that to Rogue). If you then wanted to take a level in, let's say ranger (part of the Warrior group) you'd have to earn enough XP for level 2 Warrior which point you dedicate the level to ranger.

A class that belongs to more than one of your primary groups would require the highest amount of XP to level it. Say a bard is both in the thief and mage group and your first level is in thief/ would then need to get to level 2 thief to get one level in bard (this avoid leveling your hybrids by alternating "primary" levels). Alternatively...once you level a hybrid using a primary it's locked into that primary for leveling purposes, but that requires even more tracking...

Not sure how the math on that works out...just wanted to reply to what I seen here :D

So, I have a player that is playing a rogue and plans to use the Minor Magic rogue talent to gain the use of a cantrip. When casting the cantrip, he doesn't want the rest of the party (and to a certain extent those around him) to know that he is casting a spell.

This idea is also of interest to me, as I intend to play a bard in his campaign and would like to do something similar.

I've seen this idea discussed in a couple of different threads with various proposals...but would like a little feedback on two options that I am currently debating.

Note that in neither case are we trying to be completely silent or motionless, the intent is to mask the spell casting by making it look like something it's not.

Options that I've seen elsewhere are:
Ultimate Magic's Spellsong Feat - It works, but it burns a feat as well as other resources for the bard, and is unusable by other casters. It doesn't really work for our situation because he can't take it.

Hidden Spell Skill Trick from D20 PFSRD - I really like this idea...but auto denying the attack of opportunity on a success seems a bit much.

My solutions then...please provide feedback on whether you think these options seem balanced, viable, etc. and which you think is better than the other.
Subtle Spellcraft (Skill Use)
Prerequisite: +5 bonus (not ranks) in Sleight of Hand, Bluff, or Performance, +1 bonus in spellcraft
You are skilled at masking your spellcasting in other actions (everyday gestures and speech, performance, etc). Your chance to mask the spellcasting is opposed by the observer's Perception (or Sense Motive) check. The observer is still entitled to an attack of opportunity if they would normally receive one since the actions you are using to mask the spellcasting still make you vulnerable to attack.

Coerced Caster (Basic Trait - Magic Category)
You grew up in a household or society were the use of magic was frowned upon and learned to hide its use through the art of of misdirection and subterfuge. You may mask your spellcasting using a Sleight of Hand, Bluff, or Performance check versus an opposed Perception or Sense Motive check. A success masks your spellcasting, if you succeed by 5 or more you deny your opponent an attack of opportunity if they would normally have received one.

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I'd like to take a look as well...


I recently linked this website: Traykon Alchemy Formulas in my thread about a Book of Simple Alchemical Formulas that I made.

Kyras Ausks wrote:

I wish you were in my game that book looks amazing

also thanks for the link

Thanks! And no problem!

Joesi wrote:
Are the ingredients just a flavor thing or what? You invented it all on your own?

Yes they are just a flavor thing. It took me about 30 minutes or so to assign symbols to the various ingredients (one of the pictures has the alchemy smybols list) and then assign formulas to each of the DC10 and DC15 items from the website I linked (I haven't done any of the higher DC ones).

Joesi wrote:
or is it maybe an idea from that crafting book?

The crafting book doesn't have items, it just has alternate rules for the Craft skill which makes it faster and overall more useful (in my opinion) than the core rules for crafting.

Joesi wrote:
Looks cool, but wouldn't want to deal with that fluff if it wasn't just fluff.

Yes the symbols/formulas are flavor only. If you pay the crafting cost of the item you are assumed to have gathered the appropriate materials. No need to actually go out and harvest something that would constitute a "fire element" or "earth element".

Joesi wrote:
I'm not sure what items you do have, but I noticed at least a few alchemical items in 3.5 (depending on the source) are really strong, and kinda OP compared to some PF stuff; I'm not sure if you've examined that (if you haven't, you can check).

The book I made contains all of the DC10 and DC15 items of the website I listed (with some tweaks to wording and rules). I didn't feel any of these were too powerful. Some things like Rust Proof Oil (DC10) overlap with Bladeguard (DC15) from PF...but Rust Proof has more limited uses/duration.

First...I don't know if this is the proper forum or not for this type of thing.

I'm currently running a Rise of the Runelords campaign and I have a couple of players that have taken points in Craft (Alchemy). I spent a few days doing some research and decided on a few things:

1) I don't like the Core rules for crafting so I've decided to houserule it using a variation of Making Craft Work

2) I found a website with a ton of additional alchemy items. It appears to be dated from 3.5 because of the way some of the checks work (Move Silenty as opposed to Stealth, etc). So I modified them for use with Pathfinder.

3) I made a book! (I used a modified version of some directions found on Instructables)

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4

This is my first attempt at such an undertaking. For those familiar with RotRL I had considered making a copy of the journal that is found during the first part of the AP but figured something like this alchemy book would have more long term use. You can see in one of the pics that I got a bit sloppy with the glue and there are things I would change if I did it again...but I'm happy with how it turned out.

I tried to match up symbols with actual alchemy symbols...and on several things I did ok but in the end quite a few of the ingredients were just symbols that I thought looked decent for the item. I made a chart of the alchemy items and assigned the following to each item:
1) Primary Element
2) Secondary Element
3) Tertiary Element
4) Form
5) Ingredient

Secondary and Tertiary Elements as long as Ingredient was optional...the only thing a formula had to have was a Primary Element and a Form.

Layout of the pages has the item name at the top, the complexity of the formula and the (base) cost immediately after, and then flavor text followed by rules text (standard font). The actual formula is at the bottom of the page. Everything but the rules text is in a special font.

I was missing the fact that the saving throws from the classes stacked, thanks!

I was transferring Shalelu's stats from p.26 of the RotRL Anniversary Edition to a character sheet for PC use during a rescue mission and I'm having trouble with a couple of things.

The book lists her as having Stealth +15, but I can't figure out how to get her there. If she drops the maximum 6 ranks into stealth, it gets her to +12 (6 ranks, 3 Dex mod, 3 Class Skill)...where are the extra 3 coming from?

Also, I'm having trouble calculating her saving throws.

Fortitude says +10...+4 for class and +2 con mod gets her +6, I assume the other +4 is being factored in from Endurance (even though it only affects certain saves)

Reflex says +8...+4 for class, +3 for dex and +1 from ??? (Dodge doesn't say it gives a +1 for saves but I'm guessing this might be it?)

Will says +3...+1 for class, +1 for wis, +1 from ??? (Similar to Reflex...the closest I can see is the +1 from Bravery, but that should only affect fear)


My biggest concern with this is that knowing the mentality of said player, I'm not sure he'd run. I think he'd try to find some way to fight...which would be fine I suppose, but I'm not sure he'd like the outcome (he by no means would be full life). I might try this...and depending on what the outcome is, throw in the info from the spoiler below:

After reading the How did you get rid of Tsuto? thread I've come up with another idea that I may implement...(it all really depends on the responses I get from my players)


The goblins, having their lair invaded by a group of longshanks that decimated their numbers, opt to make a change of scenery (even if temporary). Thankfully, they have a location that can be used as a backup base in the swamp, an old ship wreck that one of their number discovered before being exiled (We be Goblins module). The chieftain decides to send word to Nualia about his prisoner and new base of operations.

If the PCs fail to find the new lair and rescue Taiev in a timely manner, Nualia would have him transferred to her custody...torture him for information, and then kill him.

Days later a disheveled Taiev shows up in town with a wild story about how the goblins used him in a game of "Shank the longshank" wherein they gave him rusty armor and let him run while they hunted him. He managed to lose them in the swamp and made his way back to town.

Little does the party know that their returned ally is really a faceless stalker who Nualia had replace Taiev...

Biggest problem with having him replaced...he couldn't know (he's not the type to keep it to himself) I'd be setting him up to play his character for 4+ levels before the big reveal.

I can see magnuskn's point.

Suggestions/Theorycrafting focusing on already existing rules that need modifications or feedback to make them cleaner or more balanced.

Houserule/Homebrew covering things that are more in the way of complete changes from the rules as written, or additions to.

That there enough traffic to keep both forums from looking like a desert wasteland? (I haven't taken to frequenting it so I don't know)

Another solution that could be implemented by the community, and supported by paizo staff with a sticky would be encouraging tagging topics with identifiers as to what they are.

Example of thread titles:

[Suggestion] Ideas for the stealth mechanic
[Houserule] Quick and Dirty NPC income rules
[Homebrew] magnuskn's Swashbuckler class

A sticky with a community definition for what the three actually mean and the recommendation to tag your topics appropriately might get the level of organization you're looking for. It might take moderators changing the name of a few posts at first to get the front page tagged...but I think after that people would catch on and follow accordingly.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

<assumes evil goblin mode>

Alternatively, the goblins, amused that he was hunting them, decide to release him... even giving him a rusty suit of full plate (speed dropped to 20). Of course, he needs to survive the goblin's human hunt which starts right after the chieftain stops speaking...

And they push him towards a mash that will slow him down even more...

They're not expecting him to survive. They want to crush his hope.

Exactly the type of (evil) creative inspiration I was looking for :D

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

I'm surprised they're still 1st level...

Prior to the start of the session, the only thing they had completed was the festival. Prior to their trip to the Licktoad they had only completed the vault and boar hunt...

I wasn't expecting them to go lair hunting at 1st level, they just opted to go...they even discussed troll hunting, which was just crazy in my mind.

I haven't handed out XP for this second session yet, with the number of goblins that they did kill it's possible that they leveled. It was too late at night to figure out XP...we started between 4:30 and 5:00pm and people were leaving at around 5am.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

the PC, so he doesn't get bored, could take over a backup character to help with the rescue,

I was thinking of having Shalelu pop into town earlier than the AP calls for and helping the PCs on the rescue attempt. I thought I'd let the player run her.

I doubt the player is too interested in another character longterm. He has a tendency to play the same type of char in every game (Fighter focused on doing a lot of damage in a single blow...he's using a Large Bastard Sword with an 18 strength, power attacks every attack). A new character rollup would likely be the original's brother.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

(Group seems a bit light on healing/buffing)

I agree.



Skeld wrote:
Ripnugget, who's in thrall to Naulia, hands him over to her. Perhaps she has him tortured for information or something. If Tsuto is gone (dead or whatever), and depending on the maturity level of your players and the kind of game you run, Naulia might have Taiev charmed so that she can use him sexually (remember, she's a fervent worshiper of Lamashtu). regardless, he should be locked away in the lower levels of Thistletop.

It's not the Thistletop goblins, the PCs went hunting for a different goblin tribe between encounters. I considered having them contact Tsuto or Nualia in some manner and having him taken to them, but since they're still 1st level and early in the campaign I wasn't sure that would be appropriate....I think at this point in the campaign either of them would likely just kill Taiev outright for being a bother at the raid than seeing some greater purpose in him as a foe that has been a thorn several times.

I will definitely talk to the players between sessions. The other three are considering a rescue attempt, they hit up Father Zantus for some healing after returning to town and plan to head out in the morning with any help they can gather. They talked to the Sheriff who was reluctant to send any town guard on a mission that he felt was pointless (he figures Taiev is dead), especially when he warned them from going on the mission in the first place. I'm leaning toward having him prisoner for a day or two while the chief thinks about it...then the chief will get tired of taking care of him and have him killed. This would allow the remaining three time to mount a rescue if they're committed to it without giving a free pass. If you're familiar with GoB's conversions (or Kingmaker 1) it would also serve a double purpose if Taiev gets to speak with the Goblin (or Mite in KM1) captive.

The evil GM in me wants to have the Goblins move to an alternate lair and leave Taiev's head on a spear at the current lair's entrance...but I figure that's going too far. This might be the outcome if the PCs delay a rescue attempt though.

A quick and easy method to figure it out would be to use the information below from the Core Rulebook (or the PRD).

From the PRD's GameMastering Section

Pathfinder PRD wrote:

Cost of Living

An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?

You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.

Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.

Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.

Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.

Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.

Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.

Figure out at what level you would want a particular individual to live at (it has recommendations listed)...that gives you monthly expenses. Then figure that their income would likely be slightly more than the listed amount so they have money for the odd expense.

So let's do this for a Sandpoint Guard.

A guard in Sandpoint, for example might be in the Poor (in my campaign, the town guard doesn't even have armor until post-raid) category so it costs them 3gp/month to live. They might make 4gp (or less) in a month allowing for an extra expense of roughly 1gp per month. Several of the guards are probably younger, or perhaps relatively new to town, so most might share a common room of a tavern.

One or two long time guards (they were around for Chopper for example) fall into the Average category in terms of their cost of living, but that's because they have spouse or children that help with monthly expenses. These guards could possibly make a bit more than a regular guard for their time of service...maybe 4.5 to 5gp a month.

Sheriff Hemlock would likely fall into the Average category, and depending on how you want your campaign to run could either support this lifestyle on his own (making right around the 10gp month in salary) or be very close (8gp?) with the remaining income supplemented by his spouse.

Do the same for the Glassworks by figuring that Lonjiku probably falls just above Extravagant (AP says Kaijitsu manor is smallest but the Kaijitsu's are the richest). I might put him at 1100gp lifestyle. That would mean that Glassworks would have to make a profit per month of 1100gp (or more). The AP says that Lonjiku had 8 skilled laborers working for him that lived at the Glassworks. I'd put all 8 of them at Average lifestyle and get paid in the range of 12-15gp per month so 96 to 120gp per month in expense for Lonjiku there. Figuring out cost of product is harder...but again the AP says most of the components are found in abundance nearby (and would be fairly free) so I'd put maybe a dozen Poor commoners at Lonjiku's disposal that gather materials (sand, seaweed and lime) so that's another 36 to 50gp per month for labor (up to a max of 170gp month in labor) and we'll say other misc. expenses probably bring that total closer to the 500gp the glassworks would have to bring in 1600gp per month to pay it's expenses and support the Kaijitsu lifestyle.

Adjust the numbers as you feel is fitting your campaign...maybe an aristocrat in Sandpoint doesn't quite fit into the Extravagant lifestyle so Kaijitsu would be lower. If you feel 500gp in expenses is too much in expenses...lower it.

As for Magnimar...I'd say the average aristocrat in Magnimar is probably at Kaijitsu's level with a few of the more successful ones even higher. You might still see the average guard be in the poor category, but they're monthly salary would be closer to average and you're likely to see more experienced (and higher paid) guards there so instead of one or two being average you might see roughly half (it is a bigger city after all). Magnimar's size doesn't necessarily mean that any one individual is going to make more than an individual in just means the population is more diversified and opportunity is greater (while there may be more Kaijitsu level aristocrats and higher...there are also quite a few more destitute level).

This is how I would do it for my campaign...rather than try to figure out specific numbers...figure out what lifestyle you'd want a particular job to put people at and work from there. No need to know that taxes in Sandpoint is x%...just figure out a lump sum cost of expense and move on. Only break down the things you have to.

An even easier, less detailed, way to do it would be to just assign a monthly income level to NPC classes (campaign wide). Aristocrat might net 400gp per month while Expert nets 15gp, Commoner 5gp. Lonjiku Kaijitsu then earns 1230gp per month (Aristocrat 3, Expert 2). His income + workers income + artificial_percentage = Glassworks Income. Bigger cities might have higher level NPC classes. That method would mean the General Store would have an income of 78gp...Ven (Commoner 7) Solsta (Commoner 4), Katrine (Commoner 1) and Shayliss (Commoner 1) all work that's 13 * 5gp for 65gp, that 65 * 20% expense = 78gp income.

So that turned into a longer post than I expected...

I ran the second session of my RotRL campaign yesterday (a nice 12 hour long session...) and encountered a situation that I can't decide how I want to handle. The details are enclosed in spoilers because some minor details of the first book are revealed...

The group consists of:
Taiev - Male Human Fighter (1st)
Gypo - Male Dwarven Ranger (1st)
Leilani - Female Elven Wizard (1st)
Gilgaros - Male Half-Elf Fighter (1st)

We are playing with core rulebook only (we're all new to Pathfinder though several of us have played 2E for years) with the exception that I allowed the use of Hero Points...Taiev opted to go anti-hero for the extra feat. Everyone else had 2 hero points, one for first level and one for having written a character backstory.

Spoiler tag includes a background section (detailing a quick overview of the session) and my issue, which is the question I have. If your'e not concerned with the background...feel free to skip to the "My Issue" section.


The background
I am running a campaign using some of the modifications that Greycloak of Bowness did as part of his RotRL/Kingmaker combination. Not to the extent that he has done...but I used the idea of the Mites and Kobolds from KM1 being the Licktoad and Birdcruncher tribes (respectively). Tuskgutter became the Tickwood boar, and I had some of his posters printed out as the postings in the Rusty Dragon (Troll's Blood and Wedding Ring). For specific details on the Kingmaker conversions, check out GoBs thread.

The PCs completed the festival during a shorter first session, so the second session began with the desecrated vault on the morning after, with that afternoon progressing rather quickly in game time (no developments). The second day had the group completing the boar hunt where Gilgaros was gored pretty badly (Using GoBs conversions I used Tuskgutter as the boar) so the potion of Cure Moderate Wounds that they got from the goblin commando was used to bring him back up.

After returning to town with the boar and parting ways with Foxglove, they decided they wanted to go troll hunting for the reward involved with the posting (something I was shocked at considering that three of the four players are long time roleplayers that knew better than to go troll hunting at level 1) as well as try and find the Licktoad goblins for Solsta's wedding ring.

They managed to find out that the Licktoad were located in the northern reaches of Brinestump Marsh and set out looking for them. This was a little earlier than I expected...I was expecting the players to resolve most of the in-town encounters and meet with Shalelu before they went goblin hunting, but the players (as they often do) had other plans.

They managed to find the scene of the fight between Licktoad and Birdcruncher and tracked the Licktoad back to their layer. They took out the first room with ease (combat was like 1 round and a turn with no one taking damage), and then headed into the Hatchery where the goblin there ran and left the centipede's to fight. They took the creatures out in a round, again taking no damage. The Common Room proved to be slightly tougher as the goblins were prepared for the fight and reacted a little more tactically (though all but two still closed to melee immediately)... a few points of damage were dealt out but all in all the fight went really well (if not a bit longer than they expected).

The problem came from the War Room. The goblins there had heard the commotion from the common room and were prepared to fight. The goblin leader was riding his tick behind the other goblins, who choose to use their bows. All but Taiev stayed at range to either trade arrows or magic with these goblins, and the goblin leader was content to stand behind his troops barking orders (I didn't have him/the tick attack or move for the first few rounds). It wasn't until they had downed two goblins that the leader actually chose to dismount and attack from ranged while he ordered the tick to attack...that's when things hit the fan.

The tick hit Taiev and took him to negative with a single blow (first time all night I rolled really well). Shortly after, Gypo was knocked unconscious as the three tried to make a tactical retreat since their health pools were diminishing (they thought they might be able to kite the tick and kill the goblins to come back and help Taiev). With two of their party down and the tick and a goblin still chasing them...Gilgaros and Leilani ran, pelting arrows at the tick until they reached the entrance. At this point, the goblins let them leave...

During Gilgaros and Leilani's retreat, Gypo regained consciousness and burned hero points to stabilize Taiev who had failed every CON check as he bled out...Gypo burned both of his hero points (they all started with 2) in the process (his first roll was a 1) to get this accomplished. After he had stabilized Taiev he found a hiding place and stealthed until the goblin leader and his cohort passed him by, and then proceeded to make an escape...he was successful, albeit barely.

My Issue
The problem I've come to is that Taiev has not escaped...and at the end of the session was laying unconscious but stable on the floor in the War Room with the goblin leader making a decision of what to do with this invader.

I can't decide if the leader will slay the intruder outright for having violated their lair...or if he would take him as bargaining power should the intruder's friends return to rescue him (they do have a goblin from another tribe prisoner)...or what other possibilities might exist. What would goblins do?

Connors wrote:
So no one knows about the speeches for the Swallowtail Festival?

I have a somewhat long winded introduction that I plan on giving to my players. The portions of the speech were borrowed from a source sometime ago...I can't recall the source (iirc it was a play-by-forum version of Runelords). It's below in a Spoiler tag due to size.

The timing of the start for my campaign is the speeches will be occurring right around lunch time, rather than in the morning, so you'll notice some variations on what is happening compared to the sequence provided in the book. The map referenced can be found here. I also made up dragon icons for the dragon races game which can be found here. For info on the games, check out the Swallowtail Festival Games thread.

Edit: The PDF version of the map has some graphic issues...if you have MS Publisher you can download the original file here.


The Swallowtail Festival has officially arrived upon the town of Sandpoint, and in the time you’ve spent here you’ve come to realize the importance this moment has on the citizens of this quaint town. It brings closure to a series of events from five years ago, referred to as “the Late Unpleasantness”, when a seemingly harmless eccentric named Jarvis Stoot snapped, embarking on a killing spree that would have been shocking and unsettling in Magnimar, and was catastrophic in sleepy Sandpoint. Nearly two dozen people were stalked and killed before ‘Chopper’ died resisting arrest. His body had barely cooled before the townspeople had to deal with another tragedy: an accidental fire that destroyed the northernmost quarter of town - starting with the cathedral, where beloved priest Ezakien Tobyn, his daughter, and several acolytes perished.

For five years, the faithful of Sandpoint have attended church in smaller wooden structures hastily rebuilt after the fire, and while their new pastor, Father Zantus, was helpful, kind, and wise, it just wasn’t the same. Now, the new stone cathedral is finally done. All that remains is for the Swallowtail Festival to renew the site’s blessings from the gods.

It is now the first day of fall, and the entire population is gathered in front of the main doors on the western side of the building. Flanking those doors, tall stained glass windows honor Shelyn and Gozreh, whose worshippers share the western chapel. Several merchant tents feature food, clothes, local crafts, and souvenirs. Some of the detritus of construction still lies scattered about, but most of the old scaffolding and waste wood have been repurposed in the construction of the high dais in the southeastern corner of the open square in front of the church. Welcome speeches should begin soon, and in four chairs on the dais can be seen a slender middle-aged woman with short auburn hair, a burly, bald Shoanti man in the uniform of the town Guard, a flamboyant man whose bright clothing is at the height of Magnimar fashion, and, of course, a pleasant-looking cleric whose fine linen robes are elaborately and tastefully embroidered in a repeating pattern of blue butterflies. The first of these individuals stands at half-past eleven, and the crowd quiets.

"It is so delightful to see so many faces here today, both new and familiar," she begins. "To those of you from out of town, I am Kendra Deverin, mayor of Sandpoint, and you are most welcome!" She pauses as the crowd shouts its agreement.

"To those who already know me, I'm glad you could all spare a day to celebrate. I'm sure only Rovansky, our tanner, is too busy to - oh look! Friends, here in the first row, Larz is here!" Loud laughter ripples through the crowd, especially among those who sit close enough to the tanner to see his unamused expression.

"Anyway, I can smell the lunch our tavern keepers are cooking already. A round of applause to Ameiko, Garridan, Cracktooth, and Jargie! I'm sure Father Zantus can spare an extra prayer that they don't burn anything before we get to eat it." More cheering erupts: the aromas drifting over the crowd are glorious.

"Now, since you have three more of us to stand there through, I'm going to sit down. No business today! This is my favorite time of year!"

The next two speeches go just as quickly as the mayor’s. Sherrif Hemlock is as usual far too serious, reminding everyone to be safe around this evening’s bonfire and requesting a moment of silence to remember those who perished in the fire that destroyed the old church.

Cyrdak Drokkus brings the mood back up with a hilarious recap of the long process the town went through to finance and construct the new building. He throws a bit of self-promotion at the end, inviting the townsfolk and visitors to attend his new production of “The Harpy’s Curse” tomorrow night. The lead role of Avisera the harpy queen will be played by none other than the famous Magnimarian diva Allishanda, a definate coup for a theater so far from the city.

Finally, Father Zantus takes the stage to officially open the ceremony. “Today ushers in a new season, many would call this season Autumn. The season which makes summer give way to winter, bring cool air and brightly colored trees to the canvas of the world. But others would refer to this season as Fall...and there is good reason for that. For today also marks the day that Desna fell from the heavens after doing battle with Lamashtu.

Lamashtu gloated as she began to ransack Desna’s palace, laughing all the way as her body fell into the sea below. Though all the world wept for the loss of the goddess, and of dreams, it is said that she survived, wounded, washed up on the rocks of the sea. She was discovered there, on the rocks, by a blind orphan, forgotten and cast aside by all the world. Though the orphan knew not of who she had discovered and could do little for the wounded goddess, she still stayed there by her side, holding a vigil on the beach, praying and tending to her as best she could. And though she tired and knew that the goddess had little chance to recover, she remained all throughout the night and into the week, praying and keeping faith.

And eventually, Desna did recover, though all the world thought her lost; and to thank the child who had prayed for her health, she transformed her into an immortal butterfly to forever remain with her in her palace in the heavens”

Father Zantus motions toward the newly finished cathedral, the sunlight glittering off the stained glass windows. “This story reminds us that tragedy is just a setback, not an end. Though our place of worship was destroyed, and our previous priest, Father Tobyn, perished in the flame, we have persevered as Desna would desire, and built anew. In celebration of our new grand cathedral, let the Swallowtail Festival begin.”

With that, several of the priest’s acolytes throw off the canvas of a nearby wagon, revealing a thousand swallowtail butterflies...the Children of Desna. The butterflies flutter in every direction, eager children chasing them in a futile attempt to catch one.

The crowd begins to disperse to partake in the festival activities. A sign near the podium shows a basic map of sandpoint, with various attractions labeled on the map. In addition to the food stands provided by the taverns that dot the immediate area, the map outlines several games and even a fortune teller. While many of the games are highlighted on the map with markers and painted signs, one is labeled simply with a pinned note.

Krome wrote:

Brining up an old topic! YEAH!

Anyone have access to the Chopper's Isle adventure mentioned? The site is no longer there.

Please and thank you!

It's still there, the URL has just changed slightly.

I elaborated on Chinchbug's cathedral interior some.

My additions (including room info) can be found here.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

These are great and I intend to use these in my upcoming Runelords campaign. I've written up the encounters with a couple of adjustments/flavor. First of all, most of the games include the primary award and the "trinkets" usually consist of wooden butterflies, stuff goblin dolls, and wooden swords. Brief descriptions below in spoiler tags since it eludes to the character personalities as they come up.

The Devil Hunt:

Ven Vinder is running The Devil Hunt (I seen someone else on the forum was using him as the operator) and wrote up a roleplay encounter that includes his daughter Shayliss assisting. While the players are interacting, Ven sends his daughter to fetch more pies from her's obvious by the way she was acting at the game that she wants to be elsewhere and when sent on the errand has no plans to return. Ven is oblivious to this. Set it up this way to foreshadow how the characters play out later.

Lighthouse Smash:

In addition to Aesrick running this game, I included the family from the Monster in the Closet encounter (their name eludes me atm). The son is playing as Aesrick helps him aim, he ends up winning a trinket and picks the which the mother complains a little and the father states to leave him be, that men don't play with dolls. Again, trying to establish personalities of people that come up again later.

The campaign doesn't start for about a month, but I'll report back on how they went over when it does. If anyone is interested in seeing the full write ups, let me know and I'll post them later.

Why not download some of the community created classes to incorporate? I'm currently running the Crypt of the Everflame module using Beginner Box rules and a community created Paladin and Druid class.


Because my entire group is new to Pathfinder, so the Beginner Box presented a good starting point. Several of us played through the included adventure with the premades, but after we had a completely new player join who was interested in a paladin (so I downloaded it) and one of the other players was interested in a druid (so I downloaded it). I'm using a converted Crypt of the Everflame to introduce the new guy since the others have been through the BB adventure...and I plan on phasing in full core rules as the adventure progresses.

As for the community options, they seem pretty solid and are very "Beginner Boxish". There is a PDF of a pregen Barbarian and Paladin on these forums that gives you a printable character sheet identical to the ones that Paizo provides. I can provide a Druid pregen if anyone is interested as I created one for my player.

Link to the Amiri and Seelah Pregens

The "Use a Scroll" section of UMD doesn't specifically say it covers the Arcane/Divine difference that is called out in the bullet point list, but it does say it covers the class spell list. That's the part that I think is unclear. Your statement is implying that "Use a Scroll" encompasses this requirement. Does that mean that one should read the "Use a Scroll" section like this (bolded modifications):

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list and be the correct type of caster (arcane or divine). Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list and were of the correct type (arcane or divine). The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. I know this has come up in a couple different threads, but I haven't seen this exact thing and I'm a little confused.

Can an arcane caster (say, Sorcerer) use a scroll that has a divine spell that is not on his spell list? (Say, Cure Light Wounds) If so, what would be the necessary UMD checks(s)?

Scrolls wrote:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

  • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
  • The user must have the spell on her class list.
  • The user must have the requisite ability score.

This states three criteria...for the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the third bullet point (ability score) is covered by the natural ability of the sorcerer. This leaves the first two bullet points, I'll cover my understanding/confusion in reverse order.

The user must have the spell on her class list.
Ok. This is pretty black and white. The sorcerer does not. So a UMD check is required.

Use Magic Device wrote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

So a DC in this case (assuming all Lvl-1) would be 21. Ok, so if my understanding is clear on that...this part would be covered.

The spell must be of the correct type...
This is the part that I'm not clear on. I get the difference between arcane/divine, but does this mean it is outright banned and that not even a UMD check can accomplish the casting? If a UMD check is allowed, would it be the base "Use Scroll" check (above) or would the sorcerer need to make a check to emulate a class feature? If they have to emulate a class feature, does this mean that two checks are made (1 for the class feature, and 1 for the scroll usage)?

I apologize if this is a little long, and hope that this is the correct place. The first session was a little impromptu, and I was somewhat unprepared. The night’s gaming session was scheduled to be a wrap up of the last mission in the D&D Adventure Systems’s Ravenloft board game. The plan was to start the night playing a little bit of Munchkin, and then finish up Ravenloft. We had a player who ended up not being able to attend, and choosing to wait for them to finish Ravenloft we opted to play some Pathfinder (the missing player does not roleplay).

The group consists of five players, two of which are new to roleplaying. The remainder have played roleplaying games for years. In addition to the five players, I would be GMing. I have played RPGs for years (beginning with 2E) but haven’t had the opportunity to GM for a decade. The whole group is new to Pathfinder in general, I GMed three of them through the Beginner Box recently. We would be playing Crypt of the Everflame using the beginner box ruleset to help introduce the new players.

Group Makeup:
Cleric - Beginner Box pregen ran by one of the veteran players. He had played this character during the Blackfang adventure.
Barbarian - The Amiri beginner box pregen available from the Beginner Box forums, also ran by one of the veteran players. He had played a fighter during the Blackfang adventure.
Druid - I pregenerated a druid using the additional classes available for download from the beginner box forums. This would be ran by the third veteran player. He had played the rogue during the Blackfang adventure. The druid plays with a panther animal companion.
Rogue - The beginner box pregen rogue was played by a player completely new to roleplaying.
Paladin - I created a version of Seelah, played by a new player (had only played a session or two of 2E prior to this).

For the safety of other players and GMs, I’ve put the remainder of this post under a spoiler tag. I would ask that anyone responding to this post, who would give details that the players may not know about, do the same. Casien...if you’re reading this thread, do so with caution (though my post gives no information you haven’t already discovered).


Play begins in town, with the mayor providing his speech. Given two new players, and the whole group’s newness to Pathfinder, I explain that while the Mayor is playing up the dangers of the Crypt, they know from past reports that the adventure is relatively mundane and that people from the town tend to mess with the coming of age heroes (something usually only found out through skill checks/roleplay). They set out of town right away. Due to the short notice of playing this module (I had read it, but not prepared) I didn’t have a hand out of the map. I showed the group the map and the Barbarian and Druid made Knowledge (nature) checks as play progressed to determine their ability to follow it (no Survival skill in BB).

Play continued without incident up to the fight with the illusory orcs. They managed to overcome the orcs without much problem, and figured out during play that they were likely part of the townsfolk testing the group. The barbarian took a good hit from one of the orcs, but beyond that they overcame the challenge handily. Thinking they might be able to find who cast the illusion, they scouted around but didn’t catch the culprit...though they did smell the traces of pipe smoke.

They chose to continue on, and play proceeded to the first night encounter. As they setup camp, they all heard the wolves howling. They choose to set watch rotations, though the rogue decided that she was tired and didn’t want to participate in watch...the group decided that letting the rogue sleep as opposed to rifle through their belongings while they slept was fine with them. I prolonged the time frame of the wolves arrival here...which unintentionally worked out in the groups favor. The barbarian got first watch, and as time slipped by I played out the howling getting closer and louder. He was constantly moving, scouting the edges of the fire. I let his watch pass without incident. He woke the druid. As his watch progressed, the howling stopped abruptly and I had the lone wolf make an appearance. This was the part I unintentionally setup...he managed a successful wild empathy check to make the wolf leave the area. Encounter resolved, the rest of the night passed without incident.

Finding the body by the lake proved to be an unexpected experience. The group spotted it from a distance, and a few of them chose to investigate. The rogue searched the body and discovered the sword and gold. She was happy to provide the sword to the group, but decided that she would try and hide the pouch of gold. Not having Sleight of Hand, I improvised with a Bluff check. As she stated her intent, the group said “Seriously? With all of us standing around you?” So it happens that she blew her roll, and every other party member was able to use Perception to notice her attempt. The cleric’s statement, “Go ahead and keep the sword, but I think the paladin should carry the gold.”

Upon realization that it was a body, the cleric, paladin, and druid decided that they needed to provide a proper “rest” for the body. Beyond the religious aspects of burial, the cleric’s reasoning for doing so is that “This might be a test by the elders, just like the orcs.” There was a bit of debate on whether they should bury the body, or create a pyre and burn it. A successful Knowledge (religion) check by the Cleric noted that while the area traditionally buried their dead, those who perished in the wilderness would sometimes have a funeral pyre built if there was no viable means to creating a grave. The three decided that they should bury the body, the rogue reluctantly helped and the barbarian was just ready to move on.

They then proceeded on, and found their way to the “valley” or gorge, or whatever it is supposed to be. Here I will say that, much like the handout, my unpreparedness showed. I read the information describing the valley, and showed them the map from the module. The artwork on the map doesn't’ really match the description (or follow up text) in my opinion. It looks like the group has to go down into the gorge and then climb up out of it. The text (which I overlooked during play) explains the Crypt is located at the bottom. So the group proceeds to take it very slowly down into the gorge. The barbarian botches a roll and slides down into the valley, taking some damage and eliminating his second roll. The paladin and the rogue go their first roll without incident. The druid fails miserably and falls down into the gorge, suffering heavy damage and the dexterity penalty. The cleric follows, with no issue...and stops to heal the druid along the way. The rest of the group proceeds up out of the gorge (again my confusion) without issue while the druid fails again...the cleric ends up helping him get to the top.

Upon arriving at the Crypt, they locate the slain horses and ponies and cautiously search the area. They locate the bags with pillows as well as the skeleton under the horse. The cleric, upon first seeing the sight, tries to “disbelieve” thinking that this may be an illusion by the elders. Resolved to the fact that this was real, the group choose to continue on their mission...albeit a little uneasy. They manage to get the doors to the crypt open, the rogue steps in at first, using stealth after entering. She doesn’t go too far in, and instead goes back out to describe the scene within. The cleric and the paladin take the forefront and the group slowly files which point the cleric states loudly, “Hello?” Arise the skeletons.

During the ensuing combat, the skeletons managed to knock the cleric unconscious (who was at the front of the party) before the barbarian drags him back and takes his place at the front, allowing the druid to heal him. They get through this encounter otherwise unscathed, though the damage reduction of the skeletons definitely challenged the group who was all using slashing weapons. The now conscious cleric’s channel energy managed to end the last three.

The group choose to enter the maze room, and proceeded to wander aimlessly around this room for the remainder of the play session. The barbarian was the first to trip a pit trap, and for a good long time the group was comfortable leaving him in the pit to find his own way out while they explored (much to his displeasure). The rogue began to slowly move around looking for the remaining traps, but it was proceeding slowly. They did find the first switch, and after activating it and hearing it click into place, and a grating sound coming from the door determined that this would be needed to unlock the door which was firmly shut. By this time, they got the barbarian out of the pit (but the druid was in another). The paladin was assisting in the efforts to get the druid out of the pit, the cleric was hanging out at the first switch, the rogue was looking for traps, and the barbarian decided he would do what barbarians do best...bash stuff. Catching me completely off-guard, he decided he was going to try and destroy the door. Asking what it was made of, I decided upon stone. I used the PRD’s “Additional Rules” section to find the hardness and hp value of stone...and went with a three inch door (I’ve now found the section on doors that say stone doors are usually four inches thick”. The barbarian went to town and after quite some time did manage to break the door down.

The session ended at this point, and since then the barbarian, cleric, and paladin have expressed a bit of unease as to whether breaking the door down was really the best approach. They are a bit concerned that they’ll need the door as a barrier later...or that, being a crypt and all, destroying part of it was a bad idea.

A few of the things that I was surprised about over the course of play was how well the player who using the rogue took to playing the character. She at first asked what the “CN” meant for alignment. A brief explanation and she took to playing the rogue rather well (the attempt at hiding the gold from the dead body by the lake a good, if not failed, example). She was also pushing to get on with it at times, like the whole process was costing her precious time that could be better spent doing things that would make her more money. The cleric, however, took a big turn of opinions as the game progressed. He went from thinking “Oh, the elders are messing us...” to “That Mayor set us up! His statement that ‘Some of us might not return’ is true. He must send people here every year in hopes that some of them get turned into undead to further his evil schemes.” He is determined to complete the mission, and return to town to find the mayor brought to justice. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out...

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