All this talk about Taskmaster and shield proficiency and things made me realize something that hadn't struck me until now- that martial maneuvers allows the Brawler to copy any combat feats (provided he meets the prereqs normally or through other MMs, of course). For some reason I'd gotten it stuck in my head that he could only use the "standard" combat maneuver/unarmed combat types of feats, but being able to use any really opens up the breadth of what this class could be capable of.
"Hey, Joe- ever use one of these things afore?" Tosses Joe a pistol.
"Nope." Fires a shot from the hip, killing the bad guy.
I'm seeing a lot of possibilities with this class I hadn't seen before now.
In my defense, I hadn't really been looking at the Brawler until recently (I've been admiring some of the other toys more). That, plus the name probably gave me blinders.
(That makes me wonder, actually; if I use Martial Maneuvers to pick up Amateur Gunslinger for a minute, do I get to reselect the deed each time I imitate the feat?)
Was at work, so couldn't properly elaborate on my "reverse metamagic" exploits idea above:
Spell Tinkerer is actually a good model, and kind of like the "Diminish Spell" idea I mentioned when suggesting the exploit above, so that's kind of already covered.
Going through the various feats, I don't see anything offhand that would necessarily (or easily) lend itself to reversal, but I guess I'm just looking for some more exploits along the lines of Spell Tinkerer, that would allow different ways to manipulate existing spells/spell effects.
Heck, even being able to use a Metamagic Feat on another spellcaster's spell might be interesting; Heighten your fellow Wizard's fireball for him; alter the elemental nature of an incoming spell cast by an enemy (sort of a mix of using this exploit with a counterspell - "I'm immune to cold, so I'll transform his fireball into ice, effectively negating half of its damage to me").
Exploits that might be fun:
Wrest control of another spellcaster's spell.
Use metamagic feats on existing (not necessarily your own) spells/spell effects.
Metamagic "reversals" (Diminish Spell instead of Heighten Spell; Slow Spell instead of Quicken Spell- perhaps as a sort of spell interrupt/counterspell-like ability; etc.)
Might be difficult to implement, but these are the sorts of things I'd wanted to do with my own idea of a spellhacker over the years. Haven't really had any luck with it myself, but you guys are the designers and are much better than me! :)
Craft Cheese wrote:
- Consume Magic Items and Counterspell were nerfed rather senselessly. Parry Spell seems to be completely gone
The only difference with Consume Magic Items is that you can only draw 1 charge from a staff per day now. Otherwise it reads exactly the same as the first revision (down to the "looses/loses" typo.)
Seems like the kind of nerf I can live with.
Lord Snow wrote:
I don't actually think this kind of post modernist argument carries any sort of weight here at all. Asgardian cloths are incredibly silly for a culture as advanced as theirs. I'm a short pants & T-shirts guy. The kind of over the top splendor Asgardians wear is better suited for the gods of a myth of an ancient civilization than for a culture full of people who studied in universities.
Advanced meaning... what? Super-Technologies almost akin to magic? "Modern" ways of thinking?
There have been "advanced" societies throughout history that imposed sumptuary laws regarding the sorts of clothing men and women must wear, based on cultural values. For a culture like the Asgardians, who have a very strong emphasis (seemingly) on tradition and a strict hierarchy, that's not entirely unbelievable that they might have something similar instituted within their own society.
Just because many "modern" cultures have more lax and liberal viewpoints on such stylings doesn't mean it's absurd to think Asgardian culture would do the same.
(For that matter, the clothing the Asgardians wear outside of court- as evidenced in the "pub" scenes- is much less stylized than what they wear in court.)
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I am going to remind folks here one last time to knock off the sniping and personal attacks. I am seeing way too many posts that are getting flagged or deleted by staff. If it keeps up, some folks are going to get a time out.
I blame the Skald. Clearly, his Raging Song has piped out of his own thread.
Though that makes me think- as much incense as the Warpriest discussion raises, maybe one of his abilities should be (or be renamed) Passion of the Faith?
But you know what? I'm tired of this argument. Paizo doesn't care if this class is freaking broken or not. I'll just ban it in my games and try to keep a modicum of balance... I gotta admit I didn't expect the ACG to be the very first book to convince me ban a whole class. That's some serious ground-breaking.
This revision just came out for playtesting. So that the devs could get some feedback on what might need to be changed or revised. Tonight.
Hello, Sky? This is Chicken Little. You're not really falling. Let's give the process a bit of a chance to work; this is all still early days yet.
What if the deities' choice of weapon is as much a test of their warpriest's faith as it is pure fancy?
Pharasma: "Thou shalt destroy thine undead foes with... a dagger!"
Warpriest: "Yes! Ever your most dedicated servant am I... wait. What?"
Pharasma: "Thine faith shall be both weapon and shield." (holds forth tiny dagger)
Warpriest: "Err... okay."
Other gods snickering in the background. "She loses more faithful that way."
(Tongue firmly in cheek here; it isn't actually a poor way of considering it, and I am definitely in favor of keeping the deity weapon focus as a core part of the concept.)
Just tossing blades of grass in the wind here, but- it probably has something to do with the fact that this is a *playtest*, and not a *critical analysis* test.
They're not trying to get 50,000 extra designers on board, they'd just like some feedback into whether what the designers they've got are doing something that works and that is enjoyed.
On top of which, frankly, is the fact that the critical analysis that people seem to feel is falling upon deaf ears is not, in fact, falling upon deaf ears. Just because the folks at Paizo aren't jumping in to respond to every criticism, every suggestion, and every complaint, doesn't mean they aren't responding off-boards. (Vis a vis, the Arcanist revisions.)
I think there is a really strong sense of entitlement that comes along with the playtest that people seem to think they are going to have a direct and quantifiable role in the design process of these classes that is not only unrealistic, but completely unwarranted. It's the same sort of sense of entitlement that accompanied months of "When's it out? Is it out yet? How about now? C'mon guys! How long does it take to slap something together and put it out for us to look at? For free?"
And if you don't like the flavor of a given deity's chosen weapon, pick another deity. Or play another class. As Ciretose says, the favored weapon is one of the hallmarks of this particular class. They are the chosen warriors of the deity, and it only makes sense that they would primarily use the deity's favored weapon.
I'd really like to see Sean or Jason or Mark address what the concept of the Warpriest is.
It's pretty well spelled out already; both in the foreward of the playtest document (cleric and fighter) as well as in the descriptive text of the class itself- it fills a similar conceptual role to the paladin (martial divine) but without all the alignment/moral restrictions.
Now whether you agree that the class fills those purposes or not is a different matter, but the concept is clear enough. It pretty much fills the same role as the Arcanist, as I see it. Offering more flexibility than one of the existing classes it overlaps, while still offering some of the abilities of another of the classes it overlaps.
Give it trapfindning.
You know, that makes me think (and it may have already been suggested) that maybe adding something akin to the Trapper's trap ability wouldn't be out of place in a Hunter class. I know others have mentioned that (with tracking coming in at 2nd level) the Hunter isn't quite as great a hunter/tracker as a Ranger, but that might even the playing field a little bit on that side of things.
Perhaps the animal companion should benefit from the Woodland Stride ability the same way the Hunter does. It would kind of suck if you sneak up on your enemy only to find your bear is stuck in the briars, leaving you to go one-on-one. :)
I sort of assumed, too (given the closeness of classes to their "parents") that these were intentionally done that way to provide examples of how DMs might create classes of their own; a practical example to parallel the design chapter/chapters of the book.
That said, I think at least a couple of these show enough promise as they stand that they could fairly easily be moved out of the "hybrid" category into a more unique niche like that occupied by the Magus. "Inspired by" but not amalgamated. (The Investigator, chiefly, comes to mind, though I think the Warpriest could do it as well.)
I would have liked to see the animal companion aspect be a little more like the Summoner's Eidolon here, I think. More focused and less random than the evolutions are there (particularly given that these are *animals* and not wild fantasy creatures). Essentially, some more powerful and different permanent buffs to the companion- even some magical ones, at higher levels- than druids or rangers can get. I'd absolutely take those over spellcasting for the Hunter.
The more I think on it, the more I think using the Channel Energy as the central mechanic for the warpriest's abilities might have worked better; whereas the cleric focuses its channel energy power outwards, to tend to the flock (as it were), the warpriest channels energy inwards, to its own weaponry and armor to better defend the faith in distinction from the cleric. There could be feats to allow him to share that with allies (similar to the Channel Selection ability), etc. It would also thus have a more core mechanic, rather than a lot of separate x/day abilities to keep track of.
The setting of the allocation of bonuses for Sacred Weapon seems a bit limiting. Was there a belief during internal playtests that it is too powerful to be able to tune your weapon to the enemies you're facing?
A good point. Perhaps it should be more like the Magus, wherein the bonus can be changed with each new use of the ability, rather than once per day?
James Jacobs wrote:
EDIT: In related news, Magnuskn... I really Really REALLY think you should have your players build 10 point characters next campaign, using only options from the Core Rulebook. Tell them it's Paizo's Creative Director issuing them the challenge of playing an AP on "Nightmare Mode!" If they're as bad-ass as they sound... this is what they need to do next to win the game! :-)
This would actually be really interesting. 10 point build, instead of traits, the characters have to take drawbacks.
For extra hard mode, players have to play only as NPC classes and/or start as young characters. XD
Mike Franke wrote:
At the same time the Turks were using cannons to destroy the Byzantine Empire and the Byzantines were fighting back with flamethrowers, French knights were fighting English longbowmen. At the same time Portuguese caravels were exploring the coast of Africa and beginning the age of exploration. At the same time the Chinese were sailing gigantic multi-hundred foot long ships in navies numbering in the hundreds all around Asia using tech that would have astounded Europeans. At the same time in the America's, East Indies and Australia people lived basically prehistoric hunter gatherer existences.(early modern, medieval and prehistoric all existing at the same time)
To take this one step further, there are still hunter/gatherer societies living near information-age societies in this day and age.
I know this discussion has come up before, but for my money, I'd put a little less emphasis on the combat oriented side of things, and more on the other sorts of things that high level PCs should be involved in: Kingdom building, armies, rulership. Politics and intrigue. Etc.
Basically, putting a lot of the things that were finally compiled into Ultimate Campaign into action. How to weave them together, maybe some streamlined rules for it. I know there has been talk recently of some more building of the Mass Combat rules (using Troops for smaller units to fight PCs, making the rules more suitable to an ongoing campaign, etc.)
I used to really enjoy all of that sort of thing from the Companion and Masters sets for BECMI, and they definitely feel "high level" to me.
There are a ton of gremlins, and even more with the release of Bestiary 4. We definitely need some backstory on these guys in a First World book. Where they come from, why they breed like rabbits, why there are so many different varieties.
Ideally, some kind of broader treatment of fey than just the more "standard" Celtic myths; something more than just European myths, for that matter.
I'd love to see some First World residents representative of fey-type mythologies in other cultures- African, American, Asian, etc.
This was brought up plenty in the Swashbuckler Base Class advocacy thread. Being about to use walls, masts, chairs, tables etc as "flanking" allies is one way to do it.
That's a really clever idea! I hadn't considered it, but this and the point about swashbucklers and crowd control is a really interesting one!
Being able to use them in conjunction with teamwork feats would be a great addition. I'm thinking something similar to the Inquisitor Solo Tactics ability, but using it in conjunction with objects as the "ally."
Yes- the Arcadian alchemists would be mostly along the lines of mindchemists; using cognatogens of various sorts, as opposed to the more Avistani "common" mutagens. Their cognatogens would provide a wider variety of effects than standard varieties.
I'd probably replace their bomb feature with something else, as well. Perhaps something related to spirits- maybe something like "spirit assault". Either summoning spirits to directly attack their enemies, or maybe something sort of illusion-like, inducing psychosomatic damage in their enemies.
Interesting stuff, Scott_UAT; I think it's great that you put your real-life experiences into how you developed this product, and that alone makes me want to get this (where I otherwise might have passed). I think one of the things about fantasy rpgs that sometimes gets lost is that sense of realism, and in my experience- particularly with fantasy fiction- it sometimes takes me out of the moment, trying to picture things that the writer describes but seem to me implausible (one particular move from the Drizzt series comes to mind).
I'll definitely be picking this up!
James Jacobs has been hinting around about Xanderghul's method of Earthfall survival in his "Ask..." thread, and it gave me the crazy notion to suggest the Runelord of Pride as a Veiled Master!
Think about it: What's the ultimate height of arrogance/pride but to think that you are greater than the gods themselves? :)
For those fans of the Mystara setting, the contributors at the Piazza have just released the first issue of their fan magazine, Threshold.
Issue #1: Karameikos, can be downloaded free from the Vaults of Pandius via the front page.
180 whopping pages of articles, comics, and artwork!
(Direct link to the pdf here; warning, it is a large file- 25MB).
Pathfinder Adventure Path #77: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth (Wrath of the Righteous 5 of 6) (PFRPG)
Jason Nelson wrote:
I'm looking forward to this product as well... but I should point out that this very thing is one of many cool ki powers you'll find in this product!
Among many other excellent things in that product. I'm still hoping something like this is how psychic magic will appear when it finally comes around.