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Organized Play Member. 1,989 posts (2,898 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 40 aliases.


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Claxon wrote:
Honestly, maybe just build a summoner that will do the opposite of the schtick well. Sounds like you're player will focus on building their eidolon, build a summoner as a foil that will focus on using their SLA and overwhelm the PCs with action economy.

That sounds very fun. I think I just might.

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Claxon wrote:

The problem I have with thinking of how to counter a summoner is how to do it without completely shutting them down.

Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos can shut down a number of summoned creatures due to how it works. It can be overcome with a spell resistance check, but can still be an issue. Although, IIRC this doesn't impact the eidolon it will apply to their SLA summons or spells. The eidolon is subject to banishment.

Using maze on the eidolon could be terrifying for the summoner too, but not too much better than simply banishing them.

If the do start relying on their SLAs having big AOE spell prepared on top of the Prot spell (already running) can be very effective.

Like I said, the hard part in my mind is not completely negating large portions of the character, like an enemy specifically aiming to foil you would.

It's the hard part in my mind too, hence why I'm asking for help lol.

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Melkiador wrote:

Be warned, summoner is an incredibly complicated entry point for a new Pathfinder player. It has many options that interact with other options. And it has many rules that are unique to it and how it works.

If your player is the kind of guy who enjoys reading a bunch of rules, it can be fun for him. But since you described him as someone who doesn't power build, I worry he wouldn't process all the ins and outs of the class well. At the least, you will need to "check his work" when he's done. You may very well need to help him build the eidolon.

As someone who's played a lot of summoners, I think even despite the years, I still remember enough to help them out. So far their level 1 looks fine. Since they really like flavouring things out, I'd imagine the unbridled customization of the Eidolon is what inspired them to take the class, which is why I'm somewhat loathe to make them swap to Unchained.

As for the expectations, I'm also expecting an eidolon focused summoner, and I have sent them the Summoner's Handbook to help them along. so giving them some DR may be a good idea.

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I think I should clarify, since I don't think I did a terribly good job portraying my particular issue. The player playing the summoner is one of the couple in the group who never really optimizes. They might stumble onto something strong while making something flavourful, but I'm not worried about them making something overpowered that will make it so that it is difficult to challenge them specifically.

To give more background information, the character was born and raised in a cult that masqueraded as a cult to the ideal of Perfection, but the cult is a front for a bunch of Shadow demons still loyal to Vyriavraxus to breed perfect hosts, so that when their lord 'inevitably returns' they will have hosts for themselves, and a host for him so that they can rule by his side as his inner circle. The cult has a prophecy for a 'Chosen One' who is destined to end their wait, and signal the time for the cult to rise up and claim their rightful places, as this Chosen One will be a perfect host for their lord. The issue is that while the PC was a candidate to be the chosen one, instead of carrying Vyriavraxus, a being of light made its home in their soul. the oracle of the cult dismissed the PC as a pretender there to get their hopes up, and was going to have them executed, they escape and end up finding their way to the rest of the party before the campaign.

Over the course of the campaign, the Oracle will use their escape to politick and remove rival factions within the cult and solidify their hold over the other demons there, before realizing that the PC is the actual chosen one, not a fake, and needs to be dealt with before they ruin everything. This creature would be the result of that.

The goal is to create or use something that would in universe theoretically counter the summoner, but mechanically make something that looks like it's made with defeating the summoner in mind, but without really countering them, since they aren't likely to be a large threat compared to the characters made by other players in the group who do optimize, including a wizard.

I probably should have stated some of this earlier, and I apologize for not doing so sooner.

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I'm going to be running a 1e campaign for a new group fairly soon, and one of the players is playing a summoner (Vanilla, not Unchained). This is this player's first time playing pathfinder, and they aren't really an optimizer, so I'm not too worried about them running over the game. However at one point during their personal storyline, the BBEG of their backstory is going to realize that they're a threat and try to cook up something to take them out specifically. I want the encounter to mechanically feel like its a person designed and trained to beat the summoner character, without making the player feel like they're useless in a fight that's very much about them. It's a knife's edge, and after a few years of not running pathfinder, I'm not too confident in my ability to make the best encounter, so I'm looking for advice/resources that I can use to make the encounter better.

TL;DR Looking for help challenging a summoner without making them feel useless

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Freehold DM wrote:
Younger Orthos and I had a team up? Wow.

Most ambitious crossover of all time

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Freehold DM wrote:
Cr500cricket wrote:

I finished FFVI yesterday, and I remember Freehold and Orthos were the ones who convinced me to buy it originally, back in 2014 by the looks of it. Ipod I was playing it on bricked fairly soon after and I didn't pick it up again until recently. It's fairly quickly become my favourite FF game, and I'm installing myself as the president of the Terra Needs a Hug Foundation.

I hopped back on to say thank you to both of you for convincing me to buy it way back then.

...Orthos and I had a team up?

It was 8 years ago, tbf.

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4 people marked this as a favorite.

I finished FFVI yesterday, and I remember Freehold and Orthos were the ones who convinced me to buy it originally, back in 2014 by the looks of it. Ipod I was playing it on bricked fairly soon after and I didn't pick it up again until recently. It's fairly quickly become my favourite FF game, and I'm installing myself as the president of the Terra Needs a Hug Foundation.

I hopped back on to say thank you to both of you for convincing me to buy it way back then.

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Wow, it's been a while, hello again.

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I've also started adding companion feats in the doc as well. To settle some niche abilities in the styles that didn't make it into the style tree.

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Jar'Kai has been added to be the tenth form.

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Niman Style is finished and I think it works better for the Moderation or Diplomat's style, while keeping its focus on powerful force attacks aka spells. Now working on tweaking Jar'Kai to focus on them being more weapon and not Magus specific.

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Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Cr500cricket wrote:


Makashi resistance: Wording changed to "When an enemy targets you with a spell or spell like ability" to clear up confusion.
Makashi Resistance is supposed to function as a Martial's way to counterspell making a disarm chack instead of a dispel check vs the a slightly higher Dispel DC due to disamr CMBs being higher.

Ok. Makes sense.

Keep your stacking modifiers in mind. A level 13 Fighter with a 20 Dex and a +3 weapon (Who has Improved and Greater Disarm, Weapon Training 3) will have a 13 +5 +3 +2 +2 +3 = +28 to the roll (assuming he is making the Disarm at his highest BAB). Against a level 15 caster casting a level 8 spell (10+15+8 = DC 33) he needs a 5 or higher to counter it. If traits, class bonuses, and Disarm-quality weapons (like the Double Chicken Saber) apply, then he could even push this lower.

If you don't intend this to be nigh-spell immunity, then maybe consider adding the Caster's Intelligence? Or maybe make the Makashi user avoid the effect instead of countering the spell? I'm not sure what is the flavor you're aiming for.

Also, I'm assuming you mean to leave the Makashi user vulnerable to area-effect spells that don't specifically target him?

Makashi Resistance: added Spellcaster's spellcasting ability modifier to DC and added a specifically to denote that it is against single target spells.

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Instead of Asmodeus perhaps ties with one or more Rakshasa even Rakshasa Immortals would be new, and still a worthy threat. It would also fit the more subtle nature of that fiendish race.

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Lemartes wrote:
I'm having trouble quoting you.

No problem.

Lemartes wrote:
Anyways, I looked up the description for Shii Cho and your's is accurate but missing the bit about it being the most basic of forms. That being said your initial mechanics are more correct that I had at first thought.

Hmm, perhaps I can focus on making it feel more like the basic form, right now I have the basic aspect only by making it the one a character can access earliest at 3rd level, as opposed to 4th level for Soresu and 5th for most of the others.

Lemartes wrote:
Also, yes I forgot that you had all those prerequisites in there for the styles so Shien makes more sense to me now. Plus yeah it's technically part of form 5 along with Djem So. Splitting them up was a good idea.

Thank you! :)

Lemartes wrote:
I think Niman still needs the most work.

Yeah, I'll start working on an alternate at the bottom of the doc with my alternate Shii Cho for a style based more on flexibility and one that a diplomat would see use for, while not being useless.

EDIT: Definitely doing that, and renaming what I currently have to Jar'Kai because I actually managed to miss that while making these.

Lemartes wrote:
I agree Vaapad would be difficult to put in the game as there isn't much info on it. I think it was only used once correct? Mace vs the Emperor?

That and some legends books and comics, all of my research on it came from the Wookiepedia article.

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Given their propensity for clandestine ops, I personally don't feel like it should be super flashy or distinctive in a way that their plate draws the eye, instead perhaps focusing on a angular design that makes it hard to look at or focus, an unnerving and therefore imposing suit, but one that fits the theme of the order as well.

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I'm still sticking with my form fitting plate that doesn't look too bulky even under robes so that even in Hellknight plate they can still be stealthy or disguise themselves. Add in an imposing but nearly featureless mask for light, face plate for heavy, possibly like this.

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Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Some feedback:

Unless I'm misreading it, Shii Cho Style (Combat, Style) doesn't actually do anything. I can perform a disarm in place of an attack without this feat (as many times as I want per round, too).

Is the purpose of Shii Cho Angle (Combat, Style) to make attacks after your first have a greater chance of landing? It seems like I'd get limited use out of it (more I'm dual wielding). After reading it, I immediately wanted it to say, "until the end of your next turn."

Shii Cho Sweep (Combat, Style) is an interesting way of getting Greater Cleave and Whirlwind, but not necessarily a cheaper one.

I'd like Makashi Style (Combat, Style) to give the extra 5' step after an attack

For Makashi Bladework (Combat, Style), please explicitly state whether that's in addition to other bonuses or instead of other bonuses. As written, it will probably cause stacking arguments.

Makashi Resistance (Combat, Style) if you're making a Disarm attempt, it should be against a CMD of "10 + the enemy’s caster level + the level of the spell." Since this is a disarm check, CMD bonuses should apply. Also you're missing an "or." Maybe you mean, "When an enemy casts a spell with you as a target or uses a spell like ability targeting you..."? It's hard to tell whether this ability is specific to SLAs as written.

Shii Cho Style: Turns out your right, changed to function more like shield slam.

Shii Cho angle: Changed till end of next turn because it mechanically makes more sense.

Makashi style: "after an attack" added, to give it the fencer's footwork feel it's supposed to have.

Makashi Bladework: "in addition to normal modifiers" added

Makashi resistance: Wording changed to "When an enemy targets you with a spell or spell like ability" to clear up confusion.
Makashi Resistance is supposed to function as a Martial's way to counterspell making a disarm chack instead of a dispel check vs the a slightly higher Dispel DC due to disamr CMBs being higher.

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I've removed the first attack for the full attack on Ataru flurry, and added a possible alternate Shii Cho Style in the Doc keeping a more basic style not doing anything too intricate while keeping the flowing river feel that accomplished practitioners tend to have.

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Baseball sounds like a contested attack roll, pitcher thrown ranged attack vs the batter's melee attack with a club, pitcher allowed to make a bluff vs the batter's sense motive to get a +4 by throwing a curve or screw but if the batter reads it they get a +4. Damage is converted into yards the ball is hit. Just a start.

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Lemartes wrote:

I took a quick glance and I think it's pretty good.

However, there are several things I will comment on. Further I'm not sure about the prerequisites so I won't mention them. :)

Shii Cho(The whole chain): I disagree with the description of the style and the overall aim of the feat chain. Shii Cho is suppose to be the most basic of the light saber forms coming straight from traditional swordsmanship. This feels way too specific. I think it should have more general bonuses or something.

Makashi Style: The extra free 5 foot step per round seems way too powerful. Maybe as a later ability?

Soresu (The whole chain): I think this captures the style well. Might be too powerful though.

Ataru Flurry: Moving after a pounce? So I basically spring attack full attack you. Way too good.

Shien(The whole chain): Good. I think it could use some melee aspects though.

Djem So (The whole chain): I think you nailed the feeling of the style. Not sure how well it's balanced it may or may not be. That being said I think it's otherwise fine. :)

Niman (The whole chain): Description seem off. Is this made just for a Magus? Seems too specific for such a generalist style. I would do something more along the lines of 3 times per day(total) you can use something from first few styles of a similar feat level per day.

Juyo (The whole chain): Looks good.

Vaapad (The whole chain): Not sure. Good I think.

Thanks for the Feedback!

To address some concerns:
Form 1: Shii Cho is based around disarming the enemy using power attacks to knock a weapon out of the enemy's hands, and wide sweeping attacks to cut off their angles. I tried to capture that aspect, althpugh I was also thinking about a basic style following the dazzling display/shatter defenses/deadly stroke tree focusing on improving the flow of those feats.

Form 2: The reason I'm not too concerned with Makashi style is because of Following step which gives 10ft. albeit as an immediate action. Perhaps moving around some of the abilities is in order however.

Form 3: Forcing a fighter to take the total defense action means no full attack, which I reasoned to be a decent trade off. Still you might be rght, I'd love some ideas to fix that.

Form 4: I based Ataru Flurry on the Mobile Fighter's Rapid attack, by forcing him to attack one target instead of multiple, I may have forgotten to remove the first attack however, I'll go fix that.

Form 5: Shien came off a form made to counter blasters while Djem So was focused on melee, The melee component of Shien is the Opportune parry and riposte deed which is a prereq of the style, although maybe I'm putting too much faith in the ability.
I'm also still worried about the power of Djem So Counter specifically, I might change it so that it requires an additional AoO to riposte or immediate action, wielder's choice.

Form 6: I tried to keep to the spirit of all the styles but Niman seemed to be the style one chose if one was to essentially ignore lightsaber combat in favour of focusing on the force so it doesn't make sense to sink three combat feats into a style when you aren't looking to fight much. However Niman also teaches the weaving of force attacks (which for pathfinder I read as spells) into their combat style and has some dual saber forms. I basically took those two aspects and ran with them making less of the "Corpse of Geonosis" Niman and more of the "Exar Kun" Niman.

Form 7: Vaapad is a very difficult one to convert into pathfinder, I think I did well to capture the raw power of the style while making it situational enough to not be completely broken, I'm honestly not too sure about it either.

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Edited Vaapad style adding some prereq's I missed.

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If you don't want a simple weapon, perhaps a short sword or kukri for a bit more damage or a War razor or Knife, Switchblade to make it more concealable

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Quote=Deathnought]They are chameleon people. They don’t like to talk to people and would rather hide than fight. I haven’t developed much more than that.

A possible development angle: Why do they avoid talking? Is it because they feel outclassed by the Vorill from some ancient enmity? Or perhaps they were created by Vecna/Norgorber like god of secrets and have inherited this sly and sneaky aspect from them.

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I personally would start with the Boots of Elvenkind which give a +5 to your DC 10 Acro check. With the item really only being good for a pretty specific acro check (balance on slippery surfaces) and doesn't actually give the bonus BUT provides an auto success against it I would put it at around 3000gp.

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Clandestine ops would lend itself to the dagger, as it is a weapon that is easy to conceal, but still deadly in a skilled wielder's hands. The armour would be light and form fitting as to more easily be hidden underneath clothing or robes but with a distinctive mask so that upon revealing their true nature the hellknight's targets would know that they have been uncovered by an agent of the Order of the Cipher.

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I did a thing!

After getting into Star Wars legends for some reason that I don't remember and due to the world building I'm doing partially based on an in game joke there came a need for proper lightsaber combat.

So without further ado: The Weapon Styles.

I tried to keep the styles as close to the spirit of the original while trying to balance them. The one exception is Niman which is essentially "it's easy to learn but really sucks in comparison to all the other ones" form so I made it instead the two weapon spellweaving style because it has some forms and strategies around that.

I'm just looking for some input to make sure I didn't completely break anything because one group isn't the most effective playtest.

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Archives of Nethys here.

From the entry there, there's nothing to say that it has a specific weapon group so am I missing something or is it not supposed to have a group?

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Aight. For those who were wondering about the age thingy; the hypothesis is that as people leave school, they are less likely to read. So the age brackets are
A) Too early to be a very proficient reader, although some may have learned basic reading skills.
B) Gaining reading proficiency, and an age bracket where reading is either greatly enjoyed or forced like homework
C) Middle to High School, where reading becomes a necessity to graduate
D) College where reading is necessary to pass any course, although many don't go and head into the workforce
E) Post School which is usually 25+

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Got a survey for a stats course that I need people to fill out, if you don't want to, that's entirely fine. The survey is in spoiler below.
EDIT: Should mention, the results and the survey are completely anonymous, I won't include any names and all information are going to be numbers seen on graphs, not attached to you in any way.

Survey:
Please circle the answer that most applies to you.
What is your gender?
a) Male
b) Female
c) Other
d) I’d rather not say
What is your age?
a) 0-5 years
b) 6-10 years
c) 11-17 years
d) 18-25 years
e) 25+ years
f) I’d rather not say
How many hours of TV on average do you watch in a week?
a) Less than 1
b) 1-10
c) 11-20
d) 21-30
e) 30+
f) I’d rather not say
How many books have you read for any purpose in the last 30 days?
a) Less than 1
b) 1-4
c) 4+
d) I’d rather not say
On a scale from 1 to 5 how much do you enjoy reading?
a) 1 I only read when I absolutely have to.
b) 2 I don’t like it, but I’ll do it in order to get something.
c) 3 I won’t go out of my way to read, but I don’t dislike it.
d) 4 I enjoy a good book, I like reading.
e) 5 I love reading! It’s my favourite pastime!
f) I’d rather not say

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Runeslinger (Gunslinger Archetype)
With an innate connection to runic magic, Runeslingers wield the wonderous weapons known as runeguns. Their practice with these weapons allows them to wield these weapons and even coax runeguns beyond their normal limits.
Class skills: Runeslingers gain Use magic device as a class skill
Weapon and Armour proficiency: Runeslingers are proficient with Runeguns as well as normal Gunslinger profiencies
This modifies the Gunslinger weapon and armour proficiencies.
Runic Gunsmith: A Runeslinger treats Runeguns as Firearms for all deeds, feats, and class abilities and begins play with a battered Runegun (Runic Hydra, Runic Dragon or Runic Pistol) that can only be activated by her and is not considered masterwork. It can be fixed for 1/3 of the normal cost of the runegun and a successful Spellcraft or UMD check.
Grit: A Runeslinger’s grit pool is dependent on her Charisma instead of her Wisdom.
Deeds:
Runic deadeye: At 1st level when a Runeslinger uses the deadeye deed with a Runegun that does not have the touch quality an additional grit point must be spent for the first increment. If deadeye is used with a ‘touch’ Runegun, deadeye instead removes one range increment penalty per grit point spent. This alters deadeye.
Practiced activation: At 1st level as long as a Runeslinger has at least 1 grit point she gains ½ her level to UMD checks made to activate runeguns and can spend 1 grit point to activate one at DC 20 as a standard action or DC 25 as a move action, further reduced by rapid reload. This replaces quick clear.
Overloaded shot: At 7th level can spend 1 grit point to give any runegun the overload quality for one round. This replaces deadshot.
Runic defenses (Su): Protective runes cover a Runeslinger giving her a +1 deflection bonus to AC at 2nd level increasing by +1 for every 4 levels. This replaces nimble.
Gun training: A Runeslinger can choose a Runegun or a Firearm for Gun training. If a Runegun is chosen, then the Runegun’s attunement modifier always applies to Charisma on top of the normal benefits.

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Cyrad wrote:
Cr500cricket wrote:
I'm shamelessly stealing this for my homebrew world, is that ok?
But why? Why would you do such a horrible thing?!

I'm a cold-hearted monster, that's why.

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I'm shamelessly stealing this for my homebrew world, is that ok?

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Or Beast Rider Cavalier

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Name it Steve, like the Hedge in Over the Hedge.

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JiCi wrote:
Taliyah, the Stoneweaver: Geokineticist... and you're set :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0

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Suicide wings are life.

Speaking, of life. How's yours?

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Sukaiburu wrote:

According to this test

True Neutral Human Fighter/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)

Ability Scores:
Strength- 14
Dexterity- 14
Constitution- 15
Intelligence- 11
Wisdom- 14
Charisma- 11

what do you think which champion fits the most?

With all decent physical scores, human and some magic, some fighting power, I'd go Talon or Kat.

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Shall we begin with our new OP, no skill required champion Illaoi?

I was thinking Dark Tapestry oracle, or Cleric of an outer god.

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Kindred anyone?

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One of our Bards uses Perform (Oratory) and quotes Winston Churchill

Another sung We are the Champions.

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It's my birthday... I'm 16... Stay off the streets.

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Just started playing League. Had to reread and see which characters were which.

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I actually haven't gotten my hands on occult adventures yet. But a Pyrokineticist would probably be appropriate.

Still working on a completely canon version of Varus. I can't say I like Slaying arrows as Blighted Quiver at all.

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Concerning Annie, I always figured Tibbers to be a Summoned Fire Elemental re skinned to look like a bear.

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*Casts raise thread* I've been working on Varus and Malzahar as well as having completed Ashe - Human Magus (Myrmidarch)/Arcane archer
and Twitch - Ratfolk Ninja

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Razorback
Price 3000gp Aura: Moderate Abjuration CL 13th Weight 5lbs

This wooden shield like item is meant to be worn on the back. When worn this way the next time the wearer is struck by a critical hit or sneak attack the shield shatters and negates the critical or sneak attack.

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Bump

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If you take a look at the Vigilante playtest, the class is made for Batman.

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G@$$!@nit someone beat me to TQ! Argh!

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