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Because Hamas has absolutely no reason to lie about committing war crimes, amIright?
"Look, I am not a fan of Hamas. You can look through my post record in this thread and the one Lord Snow started last time.It wouldn't surprise me if they did use human shields; at the same time, I'm not just going to accept the word of you, Lord Snow or, particularly, Doug's Workshop."
Hmm, I wonder what that might mean.
How about defining the word "close to" as relates to both Israel and to Hamas?
I checked out the Amnesty International report linked in the article, and, upon cursory examination, I don't see those words anywhere on the page. I google the quote, find it cited by other sources, including Agent France Presse and wikipedia, but still can't find the report that actually says those words. I leave it other googlers to find it because I have to go to work soon.
Regardless, you acknowledge that Israel has designated military targets and non-military targets, where as Hamas does not.
I don't recall acknowledging any such thing. If you are referring to something in the piece that you quoted, I would point out that Hessam Akhlaghpour wrote it, not I.
Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."
Assuming the translation is accurate, your youtube video is hardly the smoking gun you seem to think it is. "They" have formed human shields, not "we use them as human shields."
Look, I am not a fan of Hamas. You can look through my post record in this thread and the one Lord Snow started last time. It wouldn't surprise me if they did use human shields; at the same time, I'm not just going to accept the word of you, Lord Snow or, particularly, Doug's Workshop.
As for abolishing religion, no, I'm pretty sure my comrades in the region don't have a plan for that. It would be rather anti-Marxist.
Lord Snow, it is difficult to format a response to your post without coming across all wall-of-texty with every other sentence in a quotes tag, so I'm just going to free form it:
Re: Frank Luntz's report: I am not implying anything. I am posting an article by one of my favorite Middle East reporters with the word "Cock" in his surname. If readers are able to detect echoes of Luntz's work in their preferred news outlet of choice, or in this thread, then I find it well worth posting. If there is a handbook for Hamas, I'd be happy to look at articles about it.
Re: The 5 Misconceptions Piece: Well, it's not like I prefaced the post with a disclaimer about Islamist propaganda or anything. That being said, I find your specific criticisms to be based on misreadings of the text. Perhaps, Islamist propaganda disclaimer, the text is purposefully misleading, but still:
Spoilered to prevent wall of text:
1) I'm not sure how "accepted" the argument is that they have no choice but to mix with civilians. One of the links that you can click leads to one Frank Roth saying that it is still illegal. The point, however, is that it doesn't qualify as using "human shields," which, of course, is the point of the section of the article.
2) I don't see any non-acceptance of the idea that it would be difficult to avoid civilian casualties by lobbing missiles into a concentration camp. What I do see is a rejection of the idea that Israel never targets civilians. To substantiate this, reports from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are cited.
3) The article points out that an Amnesty International points out that "The report also points out that Israel behaves similarly by placing military bases and headquarters in or around residential areas of Israeli cities and conducting military activities 'close to civilian areas in the south of Israel.'"
3) The article does not absurdly accept Hamas's twitter account claims.
"Anyone who paid attention to the twitter account of Hamas' military wing (recently suspended) would have noticed that whenever they announced they were launching rockets at Israeli cities, they would claim they were targeting military bases. It would be absurd to blame potential Israeli civilian casualties on the Israeli Defense Force for placing military bases close to residential areas. But blaming Palestinian civilian casualties on Hamas is quite normal."
As to your hypothetical question, I have no answer, because as a lifelong opponent of imperialist militarism, I would never voluntarily serve in an occupation army. If drafted, I'd either follow the precedent of the refuseniks and refuse to serve, or the Bolsheviks and organize for international proletarian socialist revolution within the army.
The part about "voluntarily serving as a human shield" is in reference to hospitals and homes, not Hamas operatives. Unfortunately, the youtube video that the article links to demonstrate its point has already been taken down.
Alright, Mizrahim are another name for Sephardim, Druze are those dudes who trace themselves from Moses's uncle or something, who the hell are the Hardeim?!?
In my defense, it's a very dense thread.
And before anyone can go for the obvious snark, [Smacks Dicey]
There has been another Update to the "It Turns Out..." piece:
Rosenfeld, the Israeli spokesperson, is seeking to clarify that while the lone cell did not receive direct orders from Hamas, it was still affiliated. “The kidnapping and murder of the teens was carried out by Hamas terrorists from the Hebron area,” he claimed in comments to The Daily Beast (//www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/israeli-official-at-heart-of-t wit-fit-still-blames-hamas-for-june-kidnappings.html) . “The security organizations are continuing to search for the murderers.”
But Donnison, the BBC journalist, is not backtracking from his earlier reporting:
For those asking, I stick by 100% tweets regarding comments made to me by Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld. He said it. Period. 1/2
I am also reminded that I haven't checked in on Libya in quite a while, and while it is a bit old, it is by a Cockburn:
Those who have been around may remember me yelling at a bunch of the participants in this thread and calling them "stooges of imperialism." I am not in the least bit sorry.
Dead civilians will eventually take their toll in the Egyptian news cycle if the military is seen as supporting Israel though.
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But Uri, otoh:
"Take Egypt, ruled by a bloodstained military dictator. He is a full-time collaborator with Israel, as was Hosny Mubarak before him, only more efficient. Since Israel controls all the other land and sea borders of the Gaza Strip, the Egyptian border is Gaza’s only outlet to the world.
"But Egypt, the former leader of the Arab world, is now a subcontractor of Israel, more determined than Israel itself to starve the Gaza Strip and kill Hamas. Egyptian TV is full of 'journalists' who curse the Palestinians in the most vulgar terms and grovel before their new Pharaoh. But Egypt now insists on being the sole broker of the cease-fire."
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
I am bumping because a) I forgot to mention that Uri is an ex-Irgun member, oddly enough; and, b) there was an interesting quote about Egypt in here. Lemme dig it out...
Hmm, well, I'm nowhere near looking through all of the links yet, so it is quite possible that I am falling victim to Islamist propaganda, but I'll link them anyway:
In particular, I was interested in the assertions in Point 4:
Misconception 4. Hamas uses human shields.
Israel tries to explain the high civilian tolls by blaming Hamas for using human shields. The claim is that Hamas stores weapons and launches rockets near residential areas, leaving Israel with no choice but to bomb those locations.
That Hamas launches and stores rockets near densely populated residential areas must inevitably be true, since Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth and if Hamas had designated an area for military operations, it would be instantly pulverized by Israeli forces. But, this does not necessarily qualify as using "human shields," defined as "intentionally using civilians to shield a military objective." So, for example, the weapons that were discovered in one UNRWA school last week (an incident described as "the first of its kind), does not confirm the "human shield" allegations, because the school was vacant at the time.
Amnesty International investigated Israel's previous claims in 2009 and found "no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants or prevented them from leaving commandeered building." The same report found that on several occasions the Israeli forces, however, "had forced Palestinians to serve as human shields," as also confirmed by Human Rights Watch and the UN.
Amnesty's report acknowledges that Palestinian armed groups were endangering civilians by "firing rockets from residential areas and storing weapons, explosives and ammunition in them," but also acknowledged that mixing with the civilian population "would be difficult to avoid in the small and overcrowded Gaza Strip, and there is no evidence that they did so with the intent of shielding themselves." The report also points out that Israel behaves similarly by placing military bases and headquarters in or around residential areas of Israeli cities and conducting military activities "close to civilian areas in the south of Israel."
Anyone who paid attention to the twitter account of Hamas' military wing (recently suspended) would have noticed that whenever they announced they were launching rockets at Israeli cities, they would claim they were targeting military bases. It would be absurd to blame potential Israeli civilian casualties on the Israeli Defense Force for placing military bases close to residential areas. But blaming Palestinian civilian casualties on Hamas is quite normal.
Furthermore, forcing civilians to act as human shields for military objectives should not be confused with activists voluntarily acting as human shields to protect hospitals and homes. The former is a war crime and should be condemned, but the latter is a courageous form of nonviolent resistance and should be praised.
Also, I saw an article about it earlier on Mondoweiss, but I have a preference for writers with the last name "Cockburn."
Arturius Fischer wrote:
For the record, I am the biggest hater of on-topic threads in the OTD. This is illustrated by my linking of articles about the Western Sahara and Armenian gangbangers in Syria in this very thread.
My only point above was that this thread exists and focuses on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict because an Israeli Paizonian, the much beloved Lord Snow, started it.
Freehold DM wrote:
I imagine that Citizen Workshop is encouraging the US to arm the Kurds in northern Iraq, Comrade Freehold.
Doug's Workshop wrote:
Um, I don't know if you know this or not, but the OP is Israeli. Anyone wants to start a thread about Syria or Iraq or Libya, I'd be happy to participate.
Hmm. Well, a quick skim doesn't indicate any distancing between Egypt and Israel. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Vive le Galt!
Since I last checked in we have recruited two more members, including Omar the Former Arab Terrorist who was very upset when he discovered that I am referring to him as Omar the Former Arab Terrorist on these messageboards. "What the f$&~, I wasn't prosecuted for 'air terrorism,' I was prosecuted for 'false communication of intention to use an explosive device on an airline.'"
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
A bit old, but interesting:
Got around the subscription pop-up and I can see titles, but not articles, with such evocative names as: "A Troika Runs the Gaza War: Abdullah, Sisi and Netanyahu" and "US Ceasefire Ploy Deepens Rift with Saudi Arabia and Egypt" with the subheading "Facing inflexible Egypt, Kerry turns to Hamas Patron Qatar to soften its leader Khaled Meshaal."
What do you have that indicates the Egyptian military is distancing itself from Israel?
I cursorily google and get, from three days ago, Saudi, Egypt and Israel work together in Gaza attack.
I note that Middle East Monitor is a pro-Palestinian publication, and web surf over to DEBKAfile, which isn't, and, through the paywall I can see the beginning of an article which starts:
"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was wavering Sunday, July 27, between sticking with his understanding with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to crush Hamas, at the cost of a deep rift with Washington, or going along with Kerry, at the cost of Israel's security against dangerous terrorists."
"...my wife to kill and Gildor to frame for it."
Although, some of the article I've been reading lead me to believe that I was too soft on Israel in some of my timelines above; apparently, some argue that although there were rockets from Gaza after Operation Brother's Keeper, Hamas didn't order rocket attacks until after the IDF started lobbing missiles into Gaza.
If so, I apologize to the anti-Semitic Islamic fanatics in Hamas for the calumny and slander.
Interesting article for the "no faction of the Palestinians wants to work with Israel" crowd to consider:
Of particular interest is:
"The key to understanding Israel's bombardment of Gaza is the unity government between Hamas and Fatah that was formed on 2 June this year. While Palestinian unity is itself something that Israel has always done its best to sabotage, the fact that the US and EU actively welcomed the formation of the unity government and said that they would be willing to work with it in terms of negotiations, rocked Israel to its core. The notion of Hamas as the irrationally intransigent arch-rejectionist has always been absurd, but it is nonetheless an important part of Israel's own rejectionist mythology, in which Hamas's 'terrorism' and supposed inherent 'anti-Semitism' is utilised by Israel in order to maintain the status quo of occupation and the annexation of the West Bank, with Gaza contained and isolated under constant siege and the permanent threat of Israeli violence. Hamas's acceptance of the unity government meant that it in effect accepted the US terms for its cooperation with any Palestinian government, which is an acceptance of 'past peace deals' and thus, in turn, an acceptance of the PA's commitment to a negotiated two-state solution based on UN resolution 242."
I can't pretend to be privy to no particularly helpful insights or sophisticated analysis, but it's what I was trying to puzzle out on my own: If Hamas was dealing with Fatah, wouldn't that indicate they were about to, in practice at least, start dealing with Israel? Bibi: "We can't have that! Boom, boom, boom! Brother's Keeper and Protective Edge!"
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Was bopping around on the Guardian's site and came across this article from last year:
The part that should be particularly interesting is:
"The chairman of IHH, a major organiser of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla I, said that Turkish army troops will accompany the ships to protect it from any potential attack, pointing out that his organisation demanded the government to provide protection for them as Turkish citizens."
It could be just bravado, though. I can't find any confirmation there will be armed Turkish troops if, in fact, there is another flotilla.
I remember that during Pillar of Ash, there was a Britishiznoid brother who appreciated the post-game commentary of Gush Shalom activist and Counterpunch contributor, Uri Avnery.
It's not post-game yet for Protective Edge, but here he is again:
So, I can't pretend to be any kind of expert, but from what I'm picking up, in order to spike a Fatah/Hamas "Unity" government hookup, Netanyahu seizes the opportunity of the tragedy of the three yeshiva students to unleash a wave of state terror and lynchings that even Lord Snow thought was complete bullshiznit.
Hamas, reactionary anti-Semitic fanatics in the best of times, respond as expected and besiege Israel with crude rocket fire, criminally and indiscriminately targeting Israeli civilians that has very little effect because Israel has spent billions on Iron Dome.
Israel responds with a barrage of missile fire and a ground assault with the resulting slaughter of civilians that has already been thoroughly parsed in this thread.
If we understand "Israel" to mean the arrogant, murderous regime of Netanyahu and friends, then I have a hard time seeing how Israel is not to blame for this latest round.
As for all of that history stuff, you're right, Comrade Pravda, there can be no just and equitable solution of the conflicting Palestinian and Israeli grievances. Under capitalism.
For a Socialist Federation of the Middle East!
(Nice pics, Comrade Giant. Here's Boston's.)
"We fight to bring the class axis to the fore. National emancipation for the Palestinians requires the proletarian overthrow of the Israeli capitalist rulers and also those of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, which are home to millions of Palestinians. The Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab populations are interpenetrated peoples, laying rival claims to the same territory. Under capitalism, the exercise of the national rights of one necessarily comes at the expense of the right of self-determination of the other. Only in a socialist federation of the Near East can conflicting claims over land and resources be equitably resolved, and all discrimination on the basis of language, religion and nationality be done away with."
Lord Snow wrote:
I was interested in this post by Lord Snow's. I don't know how accurate it is, and I'm pretty sure I don't like the Palestinian Authority any better than I like Hamas, but I found it interesting. I also wonder where that asterick was leading.
And in the black irony column, this is one is always a fun read for old-times' sake:
I went looking for some juicy commie "Free Puerto Rico!" articles but got sidetracked by this 2005 story that somehow I had never heard of.
Learn something new every day in the OTD!
Do you notice how nobody has tried to quote you saying "shining beacon of democracy?" That's because "shining democracy" wasn't in reference to anything you said.
Btw, [looks around to see if any of his current comrades are watching] I agree with you. One-state, two-state, it doesn't matter. There will be no justice for the Palestinians until international proletarian socialist revolution sweeps the Levant.
Down with the Mullahs, Sheiks, Colonels and Zionists!
Comrade Jeff's reference to a "shining democracy" was in reference to Citizen Workshop's "only functional, etc." Therefore there is no need to quote you referring to Israel as a "shining beacon of democracy."
I didn't even read the rest of your post because I am trying to help you understand the flow of the conversation so that you don't make ridiculous, self-indulgent scenes because you misunderstand what is being said, not because I am making any political point.
I don't know anything about Gor except its reputation and the movie that we already talked about once that I saw as an episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000, but I thought you might like to know that we've got a third-generation Chinese-American comrade with pronounced Maoist tendencies coming up next weekend to give us a talk on the Naxalites.
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
RT also had some great footage of a dust-up between former Yanukovych flunkies and buzz-cutted fascist delegates on the floor of the Rada. I think it was yesterday, but I'm not sure.
Comrade Jeff said something earlier about the civilians killed in the Ukrainian conflict having fallen off the radar in the MSM until the plane went down. Synergistic weirdiosily enough, yesterday a month-old piece by that inveterate Putin apologist, Stephen F. Cohen, showed up in my Commie Club e-mail list: