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Sovereign Court

Please cancel my Adventure Path subscription.

Sovereign Court

Fecund....I read a sentence in Orcs of Golarion that used that particular gem twice. Or it might have been the Kobold section of Classic Monsters Revisited. I may have been twice in one paragraph with sentences that were close to each other.

Either way, yikes.

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I got this book last week and have been skimming through it as fast as possible. This is an insanely useful book for me. Running a campaign in the ROTRL genre about the Runelord of Pride. The information about different ruins, specifically the Sun Temple,

Awesomeness:
Nurgal, the return of the Shining Children (of Thassilon?) and the Hounds of Tindalos.

I don't normally take the time to post about Pathfinder. I think it's all pretty great stuff, but this book in particular made me want to say something.

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Wasn't the Cavalier in the old D&D Cartoon a bit of a jerk? Maybe it's an homage to him?

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I noticed some odd things about this and the Zon-Kuthon & Shelyn relationship. Their father, an ancient animal spirit (now the Prince that Howls), is mentioned and statted up as Kuthon's herald. There's very little mention of the two gods' mother or what her deal was. I've read from the Pathfinder Wiki that she was an ancient deity of love and that when she died part of her portfolio passed to Shelyn and changed Shelyn's personality.

That combined with the little bit from Curchanos' story with Lamashtu makes me extremely curious about these little-known gods. I've never used much of the high-end Deities & Demigods stuff in my actual games, but I've always loved reading about it. Paizo's deity and extraplanar stuff has been exceptionally well done.

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Well the Sandpoint 1st adventure part of Runelords would come after the 1st part of Kingmaker. So the goblin attack, etc.. would be on a town that the party had helped set up and worked to establish.

That way there's a motive for their defense of this place besides "We're the good guys and this is what we do." More like, hey, I built that granary, someone put out that fire. I admit there's a certain amount of flexibility required to merge the two APs, but I think it's doable.

Hook Mtn Massacre was going to probably merge with the Vanishing of Varnhold. Maybe as a precursor to it.

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I've been collecting the Adventure Path since the beginning, but my group's extremely irregular meeting schedule has forced me to shelve them all. Kingmaker has sparked my interest in running a PF game for my group, but I also love the "grand majesty" concept they were going for with the RotRL path.

I was thinking of combining the two adventure paths, allowing me to update and use RotRL with PF rules and meld it into Kingmaker. The original idea behind all of this was brought on by the different Runelords and their possible solutions to the end of Thassilon. The basic idea would revolve around a new area of land reappearing on Golarion. This new area of land is in Varisia and is the ancient land of Cyrusian (the domain of pride). To escape the pending disaster, the Runelord of Pride (master illusionist) Xanderghul used epic level illusion magic to warp reality around his realm and make it a demiplane for a few thousand years. All the living inhabitants of his realm were used as fuel for this massive spell, so besides the Runelord and his direct servants, the area would be deserted. Any monsters or creatures encountered would either be recent migrants, undead, or constructs (the last two being immune to the spell cast).

The Kingmaker part would be the PCs going to this new land with a group of settlers and trying to make a kingdom there. The RotRL part would be the rebirth of Xanderghul and his attempts to reassert dominance over Golarion.

It's still in its infancy, I'm looking for feedback or potential problems with this idea. I'm fine with the amount of conversion involved, I used to make my own campaign worlds and could never find one that I liked enough to use(until PF). Let me know what you think please.

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While I won't get into the pros and cons of specific monsters or which are considered OGL (mostly because I haven't paid that close attention to such things in the past), I would like to see smaller, less-expensive Monster Books that are specifically aimed at a particular kind of monster. I really liked Hordes of the Abyss and Legions of the Nine Hells, and would like to see what Paizo did with a whole book of Fey, Undead, good / neutral Outsiders, or really freaky Far Realm / Cthulhu stuff.

I thought the later WoTC offerings like Libris Mortis were a little off-base, but something that is specific to a type of monster would be nice. It could be a smaller, less-expensive to produce (and buy) version, more adapted to Paizo.

Just my two cents,
Coledar

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Rather than have a lengthy section in PFRPG that talks about which deeds are evil enough to spot with Detect Evil, or how long evil acts last on a person, or if a person can be repentant of past evil, or any of that...

Why not have the Detect Evil at will ability of Paladins change to a simple Detect Undead and Detect Outsiders (Evil)? Have it effect only creatures with the undead type and demons, devils, and yugoloths.

That clears up some of the issues with people being able to kill a campaign by Detecting Evil left and right while walking down the street. It also would allow the gods to be distinguished. Perhaps Paladins of a less anti-undead deity would substitute that ability with Detect Humanoids (Evil) and have it effect orcs.

It's just an idea that occurred to me, not sure if it's terrible or fantastic. On the flip side of this ability, "Evil" Paladins of an evil deity could exchange their Detect Undead and Detect Demons & Devils for Detect Fey and Detect Outsiders (Good).

It beats adding new spells to the list, changing or explaining the vagueness that is alignment and stays away from removing alignment (which I personally think is a terrible idea).

Let me know what you think.

Coledar

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Quick question - Which classes are considered "tank" classes to everyone?

The reason I ask is the argument in the first few pages about giving "tank" classes the ability to make a full-attack actions as a standard action . I personally would make this apply to Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers. NPC warriors would NOT receive this benefit, further distinguishing them from PC fighters.

But would there be a limit to the types of attacks that would be applicable for each class? Would Rangers be allowed to only get multiple attacks as a standard action with a bow or two light weapons as part of their weapon training? Would Paladins receive this only with their deity's favored weapon? Would Barbarians only receive this while raging? You need something to set the Fighter apart and put them back on the forefront of combat.

Another issue comes up when one considers Monster types. Which types of Monsters, if any, would receive full-attack as a standard action? Would it be limited to only monsters that took levels in a "Tank" class? If this is the case, any centuries-old dragon worth their salt would have picked up a level of fighter.

Just some considerations, I have noticed a steady weathering of the Fighter's position as chief butt-kicker since 2nd edition. I completely forgot about no one else receiving extra attacks until I read this post. I think that's what contributed to it. I also think that spell casting times were a big part of this weathering too.

Respond with comment / concerns,

Coledar

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I think that the system presented in the game is too restrictive for players, but I think it's a fine tool for GMs for use with NPCs and Monsters.

I think the "Pathfinder" skill rules presented are very similar to the solution that I came up with during my campaigns. If I have to make a level 14 Expert (Merchant), I figure out how many things he's an expert in and max out those ranks. I think that the rules presented in Alpha 1.1 are perfect for GMs that want to speed up their NPC creation process. Just tell me which skills an NPC Wizard "should" have and I'll have that Lvl 15 Wizard whipped up that much faster.

I think the "Pathfinder" 1.1 skills do take away some of the customization away from the players and that's a bad thing. I can think of several times when players maxed out a less than ideal skill-class combination to extremely entertaining and functional results.

My advice would be to take the "Pathfinder" skill rules and make them applicable to NPCs and Monsters only. Make things easier for everyone at the table and keep the customization that players love. For example, cover the basic classes from the PHB and anywhere else you can (i.e. "Typical" Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, etc... skills). Also do a set for each type of monster, to at least give Animals some basic athletics and Perception skills (Climb, Swim, Jump, Perception (Hearing), Perception (Smelling)).

I think that's the best solution to the whole Skill issue. It lets people customize and it gives the GM the speedier solution to the skill issue. If anyone has a problem with choosing their skills and gets bogged down too much, show them the "typical" example of their class and give them a push in their niche direction.

Just my two copper pieces, I've noticed that when I think something through, I usually don't get a response for my trouble, unless it's a flat denial or rebuttal. Beginning to think I'm not writing these posts on the same message boards I'm reading everyone else's on.

On that note, please respond if you have comments, I'd love to hear them.

Coledar

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Couple of ideas on Racial Feats that might work out on Dwarves:

Formidable (Prerequisite: Dwarf Level 2)
Dwarves possess legendary stoutness and are difficult to shift in battle.
Ability: When a Dwarf is subjected to a Bull Rush or Overrun Maneuver, they add their character level to their CMB.

Cracks in the Walls (Prerequisite: Dwarf Level 3)
Dwarves are masters of masonry and can spot the flaws in a structure with a glance.
Ability: When in a stone or earthen structure, Dwarves can, as a free action, find weak points in the structure around a target. On a successful attack, the target takes +1d6 damage from falling debris in addition to normal weapon damage. This damage bonus stacks with a Rogue's sneak attack ability. A dwarf can use Cracks in the Walls once/day for every 3 levels they possess.

Minor Rune-Magic (Prerequisite: Dwarf Level 5)
Dwarves are secretive about their innate connection to magic, imprisoning energy in the form of ancient runes found on their weapons.
Ability: As a standard action, a Dwarf can activate minor rune-magic on a readied weapon. The minor rune-magic cause +2d6 additional damage of a selected energy type (sonic, fire, cold, electric, acid) for the next successful attack by that weapon. A dwarf can use Minor Rune-Magic 1+Wis Mod/day.
Special: Minor Rune-Magic will dissipate if the Dwarf gives the weapon to anyone else before their next successful attack.

And so on, and so forth...

Basically you take the traditional or iconic racial characteristics and make them into feats. Anyone like what they see with the dwarf above? Questions, comments, criticisms welcome.

Coledar

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I also think the Ranger-style bonuses would be an improvement and also think the weapon groups should stay with a few tweaks for logic's sake.

I was trying to develop and get some feedback on a system of feat-like abilities for expertise with each weapon group, something that makes an Axe-fighter different than a Hammer-fighter. I posted a quick mock-up of a Hammer-fighter set of abilities and I really think this is the flavor that's missing from Fighters.

I don't know if anyone else is interested in those kinds of abilities, I know they're not the modular type that rogue's get, but I thought combat maneuvers that specific weapon-groups allow would be a cool way to distinguish fighters from other combat classes.

Coledar

PS: Here's the Hammer stuff, can't figure out how to hyperlink to other posts when I'm this tired. People on the original post said it "overcomplicated" the fighter. I think of it as options in the thick of fighting

5th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Foot Smash: The Fighter smashes an opponent's foot / pseudopod / various means of locomotion causing it discomfort and pain (target reduced to 1/2 movement for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round.

9th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Crushing Blow: The Fighter delivers a crushing blow to opponent's armor / shield arm / naturally armored hide causing a temporary reduction in AC (target denied AC bonus of either shield, armor, or natural armor for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round. [In this case I would make the Fighter's Crushing Blow focus on the LEAST EFFECTIVE of the target's armor bonuses. Ex. Fighting an Orc in Leather Armor and wielding a shield, you would damage the shield first, then next round the armor.]

Note: this is meant to demonstrate a combination of possible results, the hammer strikes the shield with such force that the opponent's arm is deadened or the hammer strikes the armor with such force that the opponent has the breath (if it breathes) knocked out it.

13th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Counterattack: The Fighter is able to counterattack against any secondary or primary attack delivered against himself / herself in the encounter on their action. If the attack is successful, the secondary or primary attack is unusable for 1d4 rounds). Limited to 1 use / round.

Note: This is limited to natural attacks and attacks with weapons. This is not specifically Sundering when applied to weapons, but I guess it could be improved if Sundering is much more powerful. Difference is this doesn't apply to just weapons.

17th level: +1 to attack / +1 damage Ability: Improved Counterattack: As Counterattack above, but extended to Special Attacks and Abilities. Limited to 1 use / round. Any Special Attack or ability that is limited to a number of times per day or per encounter that is disrupted by this ability is not considered "spent" or wasted.

Example: The Fighter sees the dragon breath fire over the party and later sees it's neck swell as it prepares to do so again..."Not again!" the Fighter smacks the dragon in the mouth or throat disrupting it's action.

20th level: Weapon Mastery: Expand the critical chance as shown. Ability: Hammer Mastery: The Fighter is able to use any combination of their abilities gained through Weapon Training with the Hammer group for multiple attacks. Example: Fighter can use Improved Counterattack on a dragon's breath weapon, Counterattack on one of it's claw attacks, and Smash it's foot in the same round with multiple attacks.

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How about if you have Obligatory Skills (limit 2 per class) that are automatically maxed like the current system and skills that you buy each level. Just reduce the number of skill points for the "Skill Monkey" classes.

Example: Wizards get Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) automatically at 1st level and they stay maxed out like the current system. This skill bump just comes from being a Wizard and handling magic. They also get 2+Int Mod from their class skill list to choose (except their Obligatory skills) and improve at each level.

I think this makes everyone happy, you get to cover your class' "role" as far as skills are concerned and can tailor make a character. I would consider removing the concept of cross-class skills in this system too. A wizard can train to run a marathon just as easily as a fighter.

If you choose not to have the Obligatory Skills at first level (i.e. a Paladin without Knowledge (Religion) ), then you pick an extra skill at 1st level, but it doesn't improve with level and you have to spend points on it as normal. You could also receive one extra skill point per level or something equivalent to the maxing out feature that you lost.

So a natural Paladin could be completely clueless about religion, but be a fantastic shepherd because of that Profession (Shepherd) that he started with.

Coledar

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I have been reading everyone's comments on the new fighter and have some ideas that I would like to add / modify from those previously mentioned.

Weapon Training - Some have noted that giving bonuses to hit and damage don't equate to the uber powers of Wizards and Clerics at higher levels. They are entirely right. I would suggest special abilities reserved entirely for Fighters based on their choice of Weapon Training group. These abilities would "stack" an additional or more powerful ability for each choice added for a particular group.

Example: A Fighter who chooses to specialize in the "Hammer" group could get the following abilities:

5th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Foot Smash: The Fighter smashes an opponent's foot / pseudopod / various means of locomotion causing it discomfort and pain (target reduced to 1/2 movement for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round.

9th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Crushing Blow: The Fighter delivers a crushing blow to opponent's armor / shield arm / naturally armored hide causing a temporary reduction in AC (target denied AC bonus of either shield, armor, or natural armor for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round. [In this case I would make the Fighter's Crushing Blow focus on the LEAST EFFECTIVE of the target's armor bonuses. Ex. Fighting an Orc in Leather Armor and wielding a shield, you would damage the shield first, then next round the armor.]

Note: this is meant to demonstrate a combination of possible results, the hammer strikes the shield with such force that the opponent's arm is deadened or the hammer strikes the armor with such force that the opponent has the breath (if it breathes) knocked out it.

13th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Counterattack: The Fighter is able to counterattack against any secondary or primary attack delivered against himself / herself in the encounter on their action. If the attack is successful, the secondary or primary attack is unusable for 1d4 rounds). Limited to 1 use / round.

Note: This is limited to natural attacks and attacks with weapons. This is not specifically Sundering when applied to weapons, but I guess it could be improved if Sundering is much more powerful. Difference is this doesn't apply to just weapons.

17th level: +1 to attack / +1 damage Ability: Improved Counterattack: As Counterattack above, but extended to Special Attacks and Abilities. Limited to 1 use / round. Any Special Attack or ability that is limited to a number of times per day or per encounter that is disrupted by this ability is not considered "spent" or wasted.

Example: The Fighter sees the dragon breath fire over the party and later sees it's neck swell as it prepares to do so again..."Not again!" the Fighter smacks the dragon in the mouth or throat disrupting it's action.

20th level: Weapon Mastery: Expand the critical chance as shown. Ability: Hammer Mastery: The Fighter is able to use any combination of their abilities gained through Weapon Training with the Hammer group for multiple attacks. Example: Fighter can use Improved Counterattack on a dragon's breath weapon, Counterattack on one of it's claw attacks, and Smash it's foot in the same round with multiple attacks.

Well that's my first attempt to come up with something. I tried to make everything seem natural to the type of weapon.

I know that the abilities mentioned will look strange to some of you and you will say "Ah, but how do I know what the dragon is going to do? Why should I attack his breath weapon and render it inert for 1 round if it's not going to use it that round anyway?" I counter with the following advice / justification: You don't, but you can make sure it's not going to in the next round by tagging it with Improved Counterattack."

There are limits to the system, one being that the Fighter has to endure the attack in the encounter before they can Counterattack or Improved Counterattack against it. Them's the breaks in my mind, you're a tank, you get hit in the head for a living. I also wanted to give a reason for monsters to pay attention to the tank. Sure the wizard can cook you with Fireballs, but that crazy guy in the front with a hammer can mash your toes and tail, break your teeth, and generally make life miserable while the wizard is cooking you. So it's kind of a toss-up who's going to get the focus of a monster's attention.

Let me know what you all think, I didn't want to spend time on any other groups if everyone thought this was crap.

Coledar

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Okay, I've dealt with balance issues in almost every game I've DMed, most of them ending well before the uber abilities of Wizards and Clerics destabilized the world.

I understand the issue, spell-casting classes are more varied and powerful than any other class from about 11th level on.

The question becomes how to address this? There are different ways to do so. Some suggest we bump up the non spell-casters to be in line. I don't think this would work. I agree that balance is a serious issue, but if you bump up Fighters and Rogues too much, you ruin the flavor of the game and make it into "Super Sword Fighters" and like an MMORPG.

So I started looking through my RPG materials for a solution and I think I've come up with a two-front solution. I believe that giving Fighters and Rogues more abilities that make sense for them is a start. Give them more variety and choice.

Example: Each Weapon Group and Armor Group that is chosen for Weapon Training or Armor Training should grant some benefit besides the +1 bonus. Something that is uniquely a Fighter ability because it is a weapon or armor being used in an exceptional way.

The second front of the solution is to slightly depower Wizard and Cleric abilities. Leave their number of spells per day the same. But go back, way back, to the early days of D&D when some spells could be used in a more ritualized way and add longer cast-times and more restrictions on material cost for spells.

Ex: Disintegrate is a powerful weapon. It should be something that is developed as a last line of defense or ultimate weapon for a Wizard, not something they can do three or four times a day. I suggest a very expensive (level-equivalent) material component for each use of spells like this. If the material component strikes some as too much, perhaps a HP or EXP investment to reflect the personal energy invested in powerful spell casting. (Everyone should remember that famous gold-skinned, hourglass-irised magic-user who wrecked his health for the sake of magical power)

I think all sixth - ninth level spells should have some kind of restriction attached to them. Either a ritualized part, expensive spell component, or HP / EXP investment to cast. It doesn't depower Wizards and Clerics too much, IMO.

If you combine this with the Pathfinder version of Fighters and Rogues, you are a lot closer to a balance of classes. Let me know what you all think,

Coledar

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This is my first post on the boards, so please be gentle...

I have been reading everyone's comments on the new fighter and have some ideas that I would like to add / modify from those previously mentioned.

1.) Armor Training - I would think that an escalating scale of DR would work with each subsequent "stack" of an additional bonus on the same Armor Type. I would take this a step further in the interests of Wizard / Fighter balance issues. Why not give them escalating SR as well? Something small at first that builds as long as the fighter in question is using their "trademark" armor type.

(Side note - I would specify the armors into Armor Groups, like the weapons and make special materials a non-issue. Ex: Mithral Chain Shirt is essentially a Chain Shirt)

2.) Weapon Training - Some have noted that giving bonuses to hit and damage don't equate to the uber powers of Wizards and Clerics at higher levels. They are entirely right. I would suggest special abilities reserved entirely for Fighters based on their choice of Weapon Training group. These abilities would "stack" an additional or more powerful ability for each choice added for a particular group.

Example: A Fighter who chooses to specialize in the "Hammer" group could get the following abilities:

5th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Foot Smash: The Fighter smashes an opponent's foot / pseudopod / various means of locomotion causing it discomfort and pain (target reduced to 1/2 movement for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round.

9th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Crushing Blow: The Fighter delivers a crushing blow to opponent's armor / shield arm / naturally armored hide causing a temporary reduction in AC (target denied AC bonus of either shield, armor, or natural armor for 1d4 rounds) Limited to 1 use / round. [In this case I would make the Fighter's Crushing Blow focus on the LEAST EFFECTIVE of the target's armor bonuses. Ex. Fighting an Orc in Leather Armor and wielding a shield, you would damage the shield first, then next round the armor.]

Note: this is meant to demonstrate a combination of possible results, the hammer strikes the shield with such force that the opponent's arm is deadened or the hammer strikes the armor with such force that the opponent has the breath (if it breathes) knocked out it.

13th level: +1 attack / +1 damage Ability: Counterattack: The Fighter is able to counterattack against any secondary or primary attack delivered against himself / herself in the encounter on their action. If the attack is successful, the secondary or primary attack is unusable for 1d4 rounds). Limited to 1 use / round.

Note: This is limited to natural attacks and attacks with weapons. This is not specifically Sundering when applied to weapons, but I guess it could be improved if Sundering is much more powerful. Difference is this doesn't apply to just weapons.

17th level: +1 to attack / +1 damage Ability: Improved Counterattack: As Counterattack above, but extended to Special Attacks and Abilities. Limited to 1 use / round. Any Special Attack or ability that is limited to a number of times per day or per encounter that is disrupted by this ability is not considered "spent" or wasted.

Example: The Fighter sees the dragon breath fire over the party and later sees it's neck swell as it prepares to do so again..."Not again!" the Fighter smacks the dragon in the mouth or throat disrupting it's action.

20th level: Weapon Mastery: Expand the critical chance as shown. Ability: Hammer Mastery: The Fighter is able to use any combination of their abilities gained through Weapon Training with the Hammer group for multiple attacks. Example: Fighter can use Improved Counterattack on a dragon's breath weapon, Counterattack on one of it's claw attacks, and Smash it's foot in the same round with multiple attacks.

Well that's my first attempt to come up with something. I tried to come up with things that would balance the call for specialized abilities and also steer clear of the MMORPG spell-casting with a sword thing that I've seen mentioned other places.

I know that the abilities mentioned will look strange to some of you and you will say "Ah, but how do I know what the dragon is going to do? Why should I attack his breath weapon and render it inert for 1 round if it's not going to use it that round anyway?" I counter with the following advice / justification: You don't, but you can make sure it's not going to in the next round by tagging it with Improved Counterattack."

There are limits to the system, one being that the Fighter has to endure the attack in the encounter before they can Counterattack or Improved Counterattack against it. Them's the breaks in my mind, you're a tank, you get hit in the head for a living. I also wanted to give a reason for monsters to pay attention to the tank. Sure the wizard can cook you with Fireballs, but that crazy guy in the front with a hammer can mash your toes and tail, break your teeth, and generally make life miserable while the wizard is cooking you. So it's kind of a toss-up who's going to get the focus of a monster's attention.

Please let me know if this is something that appeals to anyone. I didn't want to spend any time working on the other weapon groups if everyone thought it was crap.

Coledar