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Austrailan Diver

Cleanthes's page

449 posts. Alias of Scott LaBarge.


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I've loved this set so far, but I'd have to say that this is the reveal I've been least excited about. Of the three, I like the priestess the most; the distended belly is very creepy, and I can imagine using her in other contexts as any sort of creepy priestess giving ready to give birth to something Man Was Not Meant to Know. But the alchemist isn't quite working for me; he looks a bit cartoonish to my eye, and from the picture he looks stuck a bit between human and halfling. Maybe he'll look better in hand.
As for Lamashtu, I'm sure she'll have some big fans, but for me it's the sort of mini that will most likely never see the table, both because it'd have to be such a high-level encounter and because she's just not my cup of tea. But I don't begrudge other people some minis they'll love!


I don't care if there's an official Kingmaker set, so long as you keep producing minis I can use in the campaign! I'm running it for two groups, one about 1/2 way through Chapter 1, and the other 75% through Chapter 2, and it's going to be years before we're done (if ever), so there's plenty of time for stuff to come out! Just last night I was regretting having to substitute slurk minis for trollhounds.


I like all 3 minis, but I *LOVE* the Hill Giant! When the first Hill Giant mini got released, I remember thinking, "Aw man, why didn't they use Munguk?" That art is just amazing, and the mini looks like it really nailed it. I'm thrilled to have Conna too (and I bet she looks more female in hand). Keep those lady giants coming!


I'm guessing they would count Reign of Winter as a "people of the North" set they just did.


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Does Paizo collect info from Pathfinder league play about what sorts of characters people are actually playing? It would seem to me that that info would be a good guide concerning what sorts of minis people would most like to have. Also, surely Paizo has its own data on how well different adventure paths have sold. If I were making my release decisions with an eye on the bottom line, I'd do sets for the best selling adventure paths (in which case Kingmaker should be high on the list, I'd think.) I understand, though, that some times the company likes to release a set of minis for a new AP that's just coming out, and then of course you can't know in advance how well it's going to sell. My guess (just a guess!) is that Iron Gods is not going to be one of the top sellers. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see a set for it, but I think it would represent an opportunity cost for Paizo. So I'm not so much anti-Iron Gods as much as I am pro-more-popular sets. For instance, if the AP after Iron Gods is going to be giant-centric, I'm confident giant minis (provided they're not too bizarre) will always have a market, and I expect a giant-centric AP is going to appeal to a wide base.


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Personally, I'd like to see Paizo poll players to see what combinations of race/gender/class/weaponry they'd most like to see in PPM. I have no idea how closely my personal preferences would track what's actually in demand.


Erik Mona wrote:


There are more elves coming.

You say it that way, it sounds kind of ominous....


Without having seen any of the monsters for Iron Gods yet, it's hard to speculate too much, but of course we have to imagine there are going to be lots of constructs, yes? Folks may want to take a look at some of the old Mage Knight minis; they had a disproportionate number of various sorts of metal golems (some with fairly steampunk touches) and also an unusual number of fantasy-ish characters with pistols and other firearms. Maybe some of that stuff will turn out to be useable here. There might be a few useful Dreamblade minis as well.


I think Kor makes a good point. More people will want multiples of the Forest Shadow than of the Haughty Avenger. Is the issue the number of paint steps?


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Nice minis! May they have faces to match!
I was thinking maybe Paizo just needs to create a new player race with derpy faces. Then, when you get a bad paint job like that, you're all set. :-p


Thread necromancy: Even though the title of the power is "ground breaker", does it matter that the power description talks about the floor instead of the ground? For instance, I have a bit of trouble with the idea of the barbarian smacking a dirt surface and having that make difficult terrain all over the place. A wood floor at an inn? The rock floor of a dungeon? Sure. Mushy, muddy bank of a river? I'm having a harder time buying that. The RAW are pretty unclear, but all of a sudden I have a player who took this power, and I have to make a clear ruling. Have other people dealt with this in your campaigns? What did you do? And is there a handy guide for different floor hardnesses somewhere?


If you can get your hands on it, there's a 2nd edition box set called Dragon Mountain that was a huge kobold-themed mega-adventure with a big red dragon at the end. It was actually intended for higher-level characters, and was filled with devious traps that showed how dangerous kobolds could be on their own turf. So you wouldn't want to use it as is, but I'm sure you could mine it for ideas.


I'm also happy to come on Paizo's boards and read words like "whinge" :-)


Wow. I mean, WOW. Laughably bad, and how tragic that that would happen to Feiya. I hope nobody shows Merisiel over on her thread, or somebody's gettin' stabbed something awful. I'll be interested to hear how Paizo/Wizkids plans to deal with it.

Re: trolls, I agree that PF trolls really do have a different look compared to the WotC trolls, so I have no problem with more PF trolls, and am glad they're giving us a new "standard" one.

Re: the general practice of making new versions of minis done by WotC, it really doesn't bother me. Sometimes the older versions are lame, and it also must be remembered that a lot of Paizo's customers never played before Pathfinder, and don't have all those minis. But since I make some money off these things, I always hope they'll pick ones that are popular enough and in demand enough to be good for reselling. I of course acknowledge, though, that I'm not the typical customer in that respect. If, however, a mini doesn't resell well, to my mind that also tells you something about how many people wanted that mini in the first place.


Love the troll! Love the gnome! Meh on the Id Stalker. I see these minis partly through the lens of the resale market, and I'm not hopeful for that one. The WotC Intellect Devourer has never moved well, and I don't know why this one would be different. (Unless it finds a prominent use in a popular adventure or adventure path, in which case....)
I haven't seen a Feiya yet, and haven't been following the discussion; is her face all muddy like some of the other humanoids we've seen, or is it something else? Really a shame if she didn't come out well, given her obvious appeal to so many. Is it the sort of thing that a skilled minis painter can fix at home?


I'd be pretty pleased to see Vencarlo Orsini make an appearance! I'm sure he'd be popular for PC's, too. A plague doctor would be awesome too, they look so creepy. Or the Daughter of Urgathoa from the end of the 2nd adventure in CotCT


LOVE these, all 3, but especially Ironbriar. He'd make an awesome PC. I also really hope his face comes out well. The goblin mutant is cool, and I like the ogre a lot. I do hope we get Mammy at some point (and I wonder if the mini will include the mudity from the original illustration? I'm indifferent myself, but I'm philosophically curious about how bold Paizo is willing to be about their minis and skin.) Dorella would be cool too (just killed her last night in my own campaign, woot woot!), but I think I might prefer a more martial female ogre.


Pigraven wrote:
I feel like your opinion on these types of things is extra valuable because you do some buying/selling of miniatures on the secondary market, correct?

Yups. Sell a lot of minis on Ebay.

I agree about that Storm Giant; never liked the look of her, and the paint job doesn't help. The Storm Giant from WotC (also a female, from the Giants of Legend set) is superior in every way.

I also think at least one other Huge would sell well: The Froghemoth. The Tendriculos (or another Huge plant creature that's not a Treant) would probably do well too, since they aren't at all well represented. There are probably others I'd bet on too, but I'd have to look up the list again, and I'm too lazy right now :-p


I think the way to sell Huges is to *make ones that lots of people want*, not just insane collectors who would buy absolutely anything just for completeness' sake. So far, of the Huges Paizo has made, I'd say only the Frost Worm, the Treachery Demon, and the dragons meet that criterion. Maybe the Karzoug Statue. The other ones, just not enough demand. And you're never going to reach the players' market with Huges, which is where the big-time demand is, unless maybe you toss out a few Huge steeds (read: Mammoth) or critters a Druid might commonly wildshape into. There are definitely other Huges out there that would generate a lot of demand, maybe even some that your average DM would want multiples of (like perhaps Huge elementals.) Or, you could change your packaging and do what WotC did in their old Huge sets (like Giants of Legend and War of the Dragon Queen) and have one Huge per booster. Otherwise, *just stay away from the bizarre and niche where Huges are concerned.* It's not that I don't want them, it's just that I'm a freak who wants everything, and I'm not the norm.


Love all 3 of these! I'm always thrilled to see NPC's, and both old characters and fat characters are under-represented. (I'd love to see a couple of big fat club-bearing idiots, too, like the one pictured in the first volume of Kingmaker. And speaking of Kingmaker, I could have used Grobaras to represent Grigori, whom my players just dealt with in our last session. Plus, those players might potentially explore an area with a leucrotta before too long. Now, to see if I can steer them away from there until November....)


Oh, and I meant to add: Thrilled about the forest drake! I just wish he was going to come out before my players are due to encounter one o.O. Drakes are hard to sub for, since you don't want to just use a dragon.


I'm one of those people who never saw this post until Erik linked to it yesterday, and I was feeling pretty bummed about missing 2 weeks of posts, so this was great to find!

Re: earlier stuff said in this thread, I'm one of those people who sells a lot of minis in the secondary market, and I've got to say that I'm big on Huge elementals. In my experience, they're always very popoular and hold their value. The Earth Titan from DDM always goes fast, and their Huge Fire Elemental also does well. Their Thunderblast Cyclone also sells pretty reliably, though isn't worth as much. And how lovely it would be to have a Huge Water Elemental at all! The folks at Dungeon Crawler had tried to Kickstart one a couple years back, but it didn't work out, so that's still a big hole. I'd definitely support a stand-alone pack of Huge Elementals.
I also wonder if you couldn't do that as a case incentive *instead of* a Gargantuan monster? Is a highly desirable set of Huges as exciting as a single Gargantuan? I'm sure many will say no, but there's this to be said for it: It's a rare person who would imagine putting more than one Gargantuan dragon on the table at one time for an encounter, but multiple Huge elementals at once is easy to contemplate, so I think you'd find people wanting more of these than they would of any single Gargantuan model.
I also wanted to say something about the RoW Huge pack. I love the idea of the Huge packs, but I was pretty surprised at that one specifically. The Frost Worm made all sorts of sense to me (The DDM Purple Worm has always been in high demand, and such things just look cool. You might even get some crossover on worms from fantasy to scifi and pulp gamers, since worm-like creatures show up in multiple genres.) But the Svathurim really made sense only for a narrow range of gamers who will run that particular adventure as DMs. It's simply not core enough to entice most people. I honor your intentions here, and I love it about you folks that you'll make a mini like that because you think it's cool, but honestly I'd rather see you making Huge minis that are iconic and show up all over the place, because (1) I hope to sell lots of these in the long run, and (2) I want these lines to be successful for you so you'll keep making them.
For the same reason, I didn't like the RotR Huge packs. There were some awesome ones in there -- the Treachery Demon and Karzoug Statue are the stand-outs. But the Storm Giant and Lamia Harridan simply aren't as cool, as core, or as valuable in the after-market. So buying one randomly felt dangerous. (If you could find them in the store to handle, though, the Demon and the Statue are so much heavier than the others that it's easy to identify them, so you know just which ones to pick up if you're lucky enough to find them somewhere in hand.) Honestly, I think the best way to handle Huges is to have special packs like the RoW pack, but you ruthlessly keep yourself focused on the best-known and most desired minis that the widest range of DM's will have a use for, ideally in multiples. You can get away with weirdos like the Seaweed Siren (which, fwiw, I've *never* been able to sell one of in the secondary market :-p) in a blind pack as a Large, but I just don't think you can use the same reasoning when talking about high-ticket Huges.


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Mona keeps a Kingpin figure in his desk? Worrisome sign.... ;-)


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Edit this thing. It's not too late!


One thing to keep in mind: WotR is a demon-heavy campaign (I don't think that's giving anything away), so you're going to be running into all sorts of stuff along the way with fire immunity. Something to think about.


I myself am playing a Wizard with a decent charisma right now. He's a middle-aged elf, so with 15 pt buy I was able to start with these stats: STR 12, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 14. Once in a while I miss the Wisdom points, and if it weren't for a lot of lucky hit point rolls I'd definitely be missing the CON. But thanks to a trait that let him make Diplomacy a class skill, a thrush familiar that gave Diplomacy a +3, and the decent Charisma, he has served as the (extremely knowledgable!) party face quite well, thank you.


Oh, and the class guides for wizards on this site are great, they'll get you started and give you great advice along the way.


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Honestly, there's no reason a wizard can't do the things you want to do. Even a low-Charisma wizard is going to have a lot of skill points, so you can probably afford to max out a social skill. And if you can take traits, there are traits that make social skills a class skill and grant you a bonus. And it's easy to compensate for their lower number of castings/day with judicious use of your Scribe Scrolls feat. Just be sure to rely on scrolls chiefly for spells where caster level and saves don't matter too much. For the first few levels, you'll probably spend a lot of time firing your crossbow (or longbow, if you're an elf). But after that, it just gets better and better. Wizards ftw, definitely!

(I'd also add that, if everyone else made a character without considering the party's needs, you should feel free to do the same. And if the party has a hard time because important roles aren't filled -- First one to die makes a caster!)


I'll have to look for that Strand Gamers session; that sounds interesting!

And here's an update: We played a 3 hour session tonight, and did nothing but mess around with the Grigori affair. They finally talked to him directly, and found out nothing they could use, although they were able to find out from a merchant that he had arrived in town on a horse that had been hired at a waypost to the west. At the trial itself, the paladin did pretty well defending himself, and managed to keep it pretty close, but even with the bonuses I assigned him for friendly witnesses and good speeches, Grigori's Diplomacy checks were just too strong for him to overcome. The jury's vote was close, but Lily Taskertin (whom I've been playing as a gold-digger who sees herself as queen material, and who had given up on the paladin as her future mate) cast the deciding vote for Grigori, hoping to seduce him instead.
A two-week interregnum then began, during which the Magistrate (the party's witch) set up a quick election, with Grigori and the just-recalled paladin the leading candidates. I had them decide it by a series of 5 opposed Diplomacy checks, which they could also influence w/ money and aid another rolls. When all was said and done, Grigori was leading, especially with some help from Lily, but it was close, and the rest of the party's aid another checks almost caught him up with Grigori. In fact, one party member, an archer who finds the paladin insufferable and happens to be the kingdom's spymaster, was reluctant to help, but eventually tried a few aid another rolls and, despite his low charisma, managed to persuade key members of the kingdom's underworld to throw their support behind the paladin because (the archer said) he would be so much easier to fool than Grigori. So ultimately the paladin edged Grigori by 2 points, and is reinstated as ruler.
In the meantime, Grigori is still at large and fomenting unrest. The kingdom went without a ruler for the better part of a month, and picked up substantially more Unrest than it had before. And now everyone but the paladin is plotting to have Grigori assassinated. It really has turned out to be a fun episode, so well done, Rob McCreary!


I totally intend to leave them paths to success against Grigori, but they've sort of made their own bed so far. It was their decision to make their conflict with him play out on his strongest ground. And they haven't even tried to talk to him individually yet, so they have no idea who he is, where he comes from, what he wants, etc. They really haven't played it very smart yet. But if they start making smarter moves, I'll feed them some clues and opportunities. Even if they lose control of the kingdom, I'm going to use it as an opportunity to build up the cast of characters around them -- people who support them, people who prefer Grigori, all sorts of new personalities -- which should be useful, and I won't play Grigori in such a way that he utterly destroys their kingdom. But he'll definitely set them back a bit!


So the party I'm running KM for just got back to their capital after a round of adventuring only to encounter Grigori for the first time. Their first meeting was tons of fun -- the party barbarian got enthralled by Grigori's oratorical fireworks, and when Grigori noticed one of the party's archers climbing onto a rooftop with his bow out, he drew the crowd's attention to it and made that work for him too. And when the party paladin (also the new kingdom's ruler) tried to speak against him, Grigori mopped the floor with him.
So far so good. But THEN things take a surprising turn: Grigori is berating the party for their horrible leadership and the crowd is getting more and more worked up, when suddenly the paladin draws his sword. Yikes, battle, right? But no, he lays the sword down on the speakers' platform and announces that he is stepping down from his leadership position until his and his fellows' leadership can be put on trial in one week's time. At which point Grigori insists that he be allowed to speak at that trial and, once he has that assurance, gets the heck out of there since this is a better outcome than anything he could have ever imagined.
So that's where things presently stand: the kingdom suddenly without clear leadership, the possibility for major upset, including the leadership of the kingdom falling into the hands of GRIGORI of all people, and I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to take all of this. If the party tries to beat Grigori at his own game of oratory, they're almost certainly going to lose, badly. (No one in the party is even remotely built for social challenges.) But I'm thinking this could make for a really memorable plot arc: Have Grigori turn the townspeople against the party, and force the paladin to keep his promise to step down. Grigori then uses his persuasive abilities to set himself up as the new top dog, and then puts his new-found powers to work subtly padding his own pockets and weakening the state from within -- perhaps even making the party his own agents, if he can manage it. And the party would have to stand there watching it happen as he decided for them how the Kingdom turns would go. (Man, I get giddy just thinking about it.) Then, when the troll problem starts really heating up, and the townspeople are finally getting wise to what a horrible leader he is, he absconds with a substantial part of the treasury and considers his job well done, leaving the party to face the trolls and pick up the pieces.
I'd love to get some feedback on this, though. What other notions do you experienced KM DM's out there have?


Re: Caster level and casting stat for a spell cast from a staff using UMD, I'd say that *for that spell* you'd have to use the default caster level and casting stat for that spell, figured out just as it would be if it were cast from a wand. For instance, if you were casting a lightning bolt from a wand, it would be CL 5 and associated with a stat of 13, which is the minimum casting stat necessary to cast that spell. But since it's a staff, the CL has to be at least CL 8. Also, if the spell is 5th level or higher, the CL hs to be higher than 8th too: 9th level for a 5th level spell, 11th level for a 6th level spell, and so on. Same with the casting stat: 15 for a 5th level spell, 16 for a 6th level spell, and so on.
But if the same staff includes a spell that *is* on your spell list, you'd be able to cast *that* spell without a UMD check, and it would use either your CL and casting stat or the staff's default, whichever were better.


I've seen a lot of my favorite spells have already been mentioned (mad monkeys, levitate, grease, but there are a few I haven't noticed in the lists:
-- Message. A simple cantrip, but it's great for allowing the party to confer and deliberate without giving up the game. Essential if you're trying to be stealthy and need to communicate. It's a daily prep for my wizard.
-- Charm Person. Even at the higher levels, it's a great intelligence spell (so long as you're facing humanoids). If we're invading some place new, the first thing I'm looking for is a bad guy to charm and pump for information. Hit him with an ill omen spell (I carry a wand for this purpose) to make it more likely he'll miss the save.
-- Hold Portal. I never prep this in a slot, but I always make sure I have a scroll of it on hand. You never know when you need to slow down reinforcements, and this usually gives you the couple rounds you need to finish off the fight you're in the middle of before you take on the next batch.
-- Obscuring Mist. Great utility spell. You can use it to enable a stealthy strategy, to confuse enemies, or to cover an escape. Or, if you're fighting creatures that can see in darkness while you lack darkvision, cast this and even the score a bit. And if you can get a goz mask (or other way of seeing through mist/fog), this essentially becomes a greater invisibility spell that only uses a 1st level slot.
-- And it's been mentioned, but regarding Shadow Conjuration: My wizard is an air elementalist, so a lot of the best low-level conjuration spells (grease, glitterdust, and the pit spells) are opposition spells for him. But if I cast shadow conjuration, it's like getting normal access to all of those spells with one prep, and essentially heightened too, since they count as a 4th level spell. Yes, the targets get more opportunities to save, but usually with those spells you're hoping to only get a few of the possible targets anyway. I find it works pretty darn well. I one-shotted 3 out of 4 ogrekin a while back by opening a shadow spiked pit under them. Worked like a charm.


Maybe the Galeshi Sun Prophet from the old Mage Knight line?


And I don't think anyone's done a small Air or Water Elemental before. Mephits, but no straight-up elementals. So pleased we'll have that option!


Though no one's done a huge Water Elemental, which is a pretty big gap, and an opportunity! (Nudge nudge)


I sell a lot of minis, and I'm always surprised that elementals aren't bigger sellers than I've found them to be, since they're such a staple. But that's for the smaller ones; the WotC Huges are always popular, I find.


These look wonderful, and will be really, really useful. I particularly like the air elemental, which looks to me like it could maybe double for some other interesting creatures too.


There are also some pure sound effect tracks available at RPGNow.com that would give you an ambient environment. Check out the stuff that Plate Mail Games makes; they have haunted house tracks.


I wouldn't be surprised to see a harrower. I also bet we'll see Balthazar as an iconic, and maybe Damiel. You know, a gypsy wagon (I think they're called a vardo, or something like that?) would be extremely cool, but I think it's unlikely.


Reckless wrote:

Actually, it is a Korvosan Order of the Nail Hellknight dual-crossbow wielding Watch Otyugh. Sorry to ruin the surprise. You should see it in hand, it looks even better than the picture.

** spoiler omitted **

Wow, I never knew that I wanted one of these, but now that you mention it..... :-)


Gorbacz wrote:
Cleanthes wrote:
Ahhhhh, I see what you're doing there. So it's like a Watch GOBLIN or something! Still, very cool. ;-)
Or, you, know, a watchWOMAN. Women are humans, too!

Yeah, I know, I was trying to be intentionally dense. I was afraid that might not come across, and apparently I was right to worry. Oh well, c'est la vie.


Ahhhhh, I see what you're doing there. So it's like a Watch GOBLIN or something! Still, very cool. ;-)


Much as I love the AP-themed sets, I'm very pleased about this one. As both a DM who loves straight-up-the-middle easy-to-use minis and a reseller who moves minis that lots of people want, this sounds like it's going to be a set that works for me in lots of different ways. And let me say in particular how nice it is to get somebody armed w/ a crossbow; there aren't many pre-paint crossbow figures out there. Excited!


Erik Mona wrote:
How many people would tolerate Tiny fey about the size of the demonic familiar or dero from Shattered Star?

*Any* way of getting more tiny creatures is better than having none of them. My preferred solution is embedding them in a spell effect or the like (doesn't have to be fully encased, just strengthened enough to keep it from breaking easily.) But I also would be content with them looking like the quasit or the derro; a little size shenanigans is no big deal, especially at the small end. (Maybe sculpt them with a giant magnifying glass over them? Joke!!!)


Papercraft is the cheapest way to do it, although it's expensive in time. But check out Fat Dragon Games; they have tons of great terrain. Here's a couple links to builds I've done:

http://fatdragongames.proboards.com/thread/1953/shrine-blibdoolpoolp?page=4

http://fatdragongames.proboards.com/search/results?what_at_least_one=stag+l ord+fort&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0

http://fatdragongames.proboards.com/thread/2050/bad-day-cauldron-shackled-c ity

Or,if you can afford it, Dwarven Forge makes crazy cool stuff too!


Hmm, that sounds right to me too. I suppose the thing to do is cast Greater invisibility on oneself and then let the projected image rip away while one stayed out of sight. I suppose if one stayed far enough away from the image, you could even stay out of the range of a true seeing spell and still barrage someone with close range spells!


It's going to be a while before my character can use it, but thinking ahead re: project image, imagine the following scenario:

I cast invisibility on myself. I follow it with project image. I then cast another invisibility spell on the projected image (which is ok since invisibility is another illusion spell. I then cast offensive spells through the image. Question: obviously the image loses its invisibility. What about me, the original caster? Am I now visible?


Kthulhu wrote:
You CAN cast in an AMF, it just has no effect. Other than burning a spell/slot, making you look stupid, and making the martial characters laugh.

I guess that's okay, so long as the laughter isn't hideous.


It's crystal clear that an Antimagic Field doesn't suppress some spell effects when they're already present -- wall of force and prismatic sphere get specifically called out as exceptions, for instance. Does that mean one can also *cast* a new wall of force spell inside of (or into) an antimagic field? Or is it only pre-existing spells of that sort that are safe?

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