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Ckorik's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 999 posts. 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm starting to get a solid take from this....

  • As a GM - you should accept that some people enjoy building 'I can't fail at this one thing' trick ponies and just let them shine.

  • At the same time - once you identify this - the entire table should get the talk that no matter how good you are at something - the mechanics work for the monsters the same way - it's possible to run into something that is as good as you are and so things don't work out (or they fly in the case of trip etc.).

  • There is no way (using the rules) to make a character that is IMMUNE to being beaten, because (using the rules) something can be just as good at the counter.

  • There are monsters that are immune to things - sometimes if you fight one it's not an attack against your 'thing'.

  • The GM playing everything is immune to the 'thing' is a jerk move.

I think I might add these to my house rules document.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The rules don't say that devils and angels are the physical incarnation of good and evil - the fluff text does.

The rules give outlines for how to change alignment, and the half fiend template doesn't have a specific clause that states they can never change alignment - just that the creature must start with an evil alignment.

If you are looking for story and flavor justification for such a change - there is one in one of the official adventure paths - thus making this kind of change (from demon to good alignment) supported with in game lore - although it's meant to be incredibly rare.

AP story:


In Wrath of the Righteous - you meat a succubus who is chaotic neutral when met and you can help her redeem herself into a chaotic good creature of desna.

If a demon (made of pure chaotic evil) can change it's stripes - then a half fiend should be possible as well.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think generally when you have conflicts of expectations the only thing really to do is to sit down and talk about it and work it out like mature, reasonable people. Beyond that, all you're doing is hopefully delaying that conversation until after the campaign is over and everybody has new characters. This isn't an unworkable situation; every player should consider "what do I do when my basic strategy doesn't work" as part of building their character and it's not unreasonable to have a backup, but GMs should realize that not every scene needs the dramatic tension of "will they succeed or not" and sometimes it's just cool to let the PCs be awesome.

As someone who plays both sides of the table - I can tell you the memories are from both sides of the isle - and as long as you are fair (and honest) I think the players are ok with not working. Sometimes stuff rolls a 1 on a save (or a 20) and even CR 20 MR 10 demon lord wasn't going to land that flesh to stone on you (yea natural 20 on a level 1 commoner).

Othertimes you have Mr. Ogre boss 10th level barbarian ready to go to town and the mage greases his +2 unholy ogre hook.

Stuff happens - I can only really think of one fight in total where things worked like I planned for the monsters - I'm (as the GM) generally just happy if my monster can get a round or two off or activate at least one special ability. Fights where the bad guy doesn't get to move are the only true bummers, not because I want to 'beat' my players - but mostly because the abilities are cool lol.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alni wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Alni wrote:
- role playing out most dialogs so my diplomacy didn't matter
Wow. In my experience any GM worth their salt still has you roll Diplomacy in conjunction with role playing out the conversation.

hmph! I wish!

There was a trial I was to speak at (don't remember my stats now but +25 Diplomacy, +20 Perform oratory, cha 16 etc) and I even wrote my characters speech. I rolled it, got a 18 something, added surge, delivered the speech.

NPC with better skills that you stands up after you, your speech is forgotten, the trial goes the other way... and that's how you deal with Diplomacy ... *grumbles*

Skills break down at high values - someone with a +20 diplomacy should be a world renown peace negotiator, someone with a +20 to any skill should be the best in the world at what they do - DC's and skill checks break down at higher levels - even at lower levels if you play to bump skills up.

The entire skill system could use a rework that makes it scale and rewards skill based characters. That's a conversation for a different thread.

This topic disappoints me - I guess I was hoping that people would have good ideas on how to build challenges that are fun and not railroadish for players that hyper specialize - it seems to be generally a 'my GM did this to me when I could never fail' thread...

Which is cathartic I guess but not very helpful (as the thread title suggests the entire conversation might have been.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wrath wrote:

Yep. The problem with making it more gritty, low magic, is you also have to make your opponents the same.

The challenge of creatures factors in the expected WBL of characters they go up against. If you drop gear from that equation, then the CR of creatures needs to go up, or you drop the actual level of the group accordingly. Level 10 Pcs are likely functioning at level 6 power without correct gear.

And that means equal power level drop too. None of this " but mages will just make stuff". If you want to keep any form of balance, or justify a setting of low magic gear, then crafting rules need to probably be dropped. Also the purchasing rules from the book that outlines what can be done and bought in a city.

Essentially, by the time characters are running level 20 apparent power, they are likely level 13 in actual power.

I guess that makes things like level 20+ critters back into the terrifying creatures they are meant to be. But it also limits what the group is going to tackle...

If you play a low magic ('gritty') game like GoTish - why on earth would you continue to use the bestiary for enemies?

Yes GoT has a few monsters - however 90% of the enemies in that series are human. If you are making human NPCs for enemies to begin with - they should (by example) be just as low magic as the players. That kind of game should never have the wealth by level issues you point out.

The only time you have those kinds of issues is when you use the CRB and GMs guide to create encounters and follow the CR advice to the letter but ignore the treasure and WBL advice 100% - and yes, chucking any system in the game out the window without taking care to see how it affects the game will cause problems.

WBL shouldn't affect a gritty game - the entire point of gritty/low magic is low magic - if the players can be level 8 and have a single +1 sword they shouldn't be fighting packs of vampires and gargoyles as enemies ....

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also relevant for you:


Step 2: Add Class Levels

Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Firelock wrote:

Without regard to any ability score increases, based just off of the hit die gained from adding a class level, does the monster's special ability DC go up?

For instance, an Aboleth's Slime ability is Constitution based, and the Aboleth has a 22 Con, and 8 hit dice, giving it the listed DC20 Fort save. If I give the Aboleth 2 levels of Sorcerer, bringing it's hit dice to 10, do those additional hit dice increase it's Slime DC to 21?

The point of contention in my mind here is the difference between Racial hit dice and hit dice from class levels. In 3.5 I think it was pretty solid that only racial hit dice increased a monster's ability DCs, but I can't find anything in Pathfinder that speaks directly to this. Does becoming a Sorcerer make the Aboleth's Slime more potent?

*edit* yes lol but only for racial hit dice - class hit dice are different - if you want a source I'd have to find it but that's the general rule.

Most special abilities that cause damage, such as breath weapons, give a save (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will depending on the ability). The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier (usually Constitution or Charisma depending on the ability). Special abilities that add to melee and ranged attacks generally do not allow a save, as they rely on the attacks hitting to be useful.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
lots of stuff

And the entire thing can be fixed with the following:

"You can make a single (never more than one) attack as a standard action."

Once done - go to vital strike and change the words to:

"As a standard action"

The "attack action" was confusing in 3... still in 3.5 ... and was carry over in pathfinder because the book went to print with a feat that used bad language. As a relic of the past it should be discarded. You want proof that the 'attack action' was not clear - go look at the faqs and questions for those earlier systems.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Berinor wrote:
There are a number of places that describe immunity as unbeatable spell resistance (the spell, for example). Do you feel differently for those? Or is the comparison limited to which spells it can affect?

In general I try not to make my players feel useless - if they don't roll to know the creature at the first sight of it (or it's unique and they can't know) I figure a single spell is enough to know if it has resistance - I imagine it like the caster encounters a 'wall of jello' that impedes the spell - and they can attempt to overcome the resistance (with a roll). Once they do this one time - they know it's there and can work around it or live with it (a choice).

With Immunity there is no chance they can succeed. SR isn''t like an attack roll - you can't 'crit' and even if you roll a 20 and have a +45 to overcome SR (enough to overcome even a major demon lords resistance for example) it won't overcome immunity.

Telling players to roll and not letting them know it's futile isn't fun - it's letting them waste actions and resources for no reason. That's why I make it different - you can do what you'd like in your game - however I think thematically letting them know the spell worked but seems to have no effect gives players the information to make better choices - sometimes your only good option is 'aid another' - in many cases a wizards school powers become useful in these situations - where in almost every other situation they are a worse choice than any spell a caster can use.

TLDR: It's more of a GM style choice I think.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Turelus wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

The core rulebook to be rewritten.

No actual rule changes. Just revised to have clear, unambiguous text that doesn't borrow copy from a 13 year old rule book. And maybe written with a tone that doesn't assume new players read the 3.5e player's handbook.

I would do the same.

As much as I love Pathfinder this is probably one of the biggest improvements it could see and would benefit old and new gamers alike.

Although I wonder how they could launch this without confusing people into thinking it's a Pathfinder 2.

You know what - they could call it Pathfinder 2.

"Pathfinder 2.0 - no old rules thrown out.

Clearer, cleaner, expanded.

Attack action language - tossed
Action types languages cleaned up
Corner cases eliminated
Troublesome spells given expanded text

Rules for mounted combat that work!
Rules for flight that (while not simulating reality) are usable at the table!

Page 1 now reads in 42 point font that any words in the book can be changed by the GM and that going to the Paizo forums to complain doesn't mean your GM was wrong!

Paladins removed from the game! (ok seriously I'd settle for a new fall mechanic that had 10 levels of 'fall' - which would let GMs use the stupid moral traps apparently 99% of them want to run with and provide a way to work a sin/atonement mechanic into the game without screwing the player).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Berinor wrote:

A digression on this - when a spell fails because the target was immune do you have the player roll the dice as though it were SR but unbeatable or do you tell them they're immune? Personally I have them roll.

Neither. Immunity isn't spell resistance - I just tell them that the spell seemed to hit the creature but it ignored it, and doesn't seem affected.


What about if the target isn't a valid target? For example, charm person against an aasimar? I tend to just tell them it has no effect.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Here is an example of one that is on par with the party...


Unnamed Hero CR 12
XP 19,200
Advanced revenant (fiery) (Pathfinder Player Companion: Monster Summoner's Handbook 19, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 288, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 235)
LE Medium undead (fire)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft., sense murderer; Perception +19
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge, +8 natural)
hp 166 (13d8+91)
Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +11
DR 5/—, 5/slashing; Immune cold, fire, undead traits; SR 17
Weaknesses self-loathing, vulnerability to cold
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +19 (2d6+9 plus 3d6 fire and grab)
Special Attacks baleful shriek, constrict (1d6+9 plus 3d6 fire)
Str 28, Dex 21, Con —, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 24
Base Atk +9; CMB +18 (+22 grapple); CMD 34
Feats Cleave, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Power Attack, Step Up, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Climb +25, Intimidate +23, Perception +19, Stealth +21
Languages Common
SQ reason to hate
Special Abilities
Baleful Shriek (60 ft., 1/1d4 rounds, DC 23) (Su) Once every 1d4 rounds, a revenant can shriek as a standard action. All creatures within a 60-foot spread must make a DC 18 Will save or cower in fear for 1d4 rounds. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (5/slashing) You have Damage Reduction against all except Slashing attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Grab: Claw (Medium) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Ability Drain Immunity to ability drain
Immunity to Bleed You are immune to bleed.
Immunity to Cold You are immune to cold damage.
Immunity to Death Effects You are immune to death effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Energy Drain Immune to energy drain
Immunity to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Immunity to Fire You are immune to fire damage.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Immunity to Nonlethal Damage You are immune to Nonlethal Damage
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Physical Ability Damage Immune to ability damage to your physical abilities.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Immunity to Stunning You are immune to being stunned.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reason to Hate (Su) Gain haste and +4 profane bonus to attack, damage, grapple and saves vs. your murderer.
Self-Loathing (Ex) Rendered helpless by reflection or objects of import to you in life (DC 20 Will neg.)
Sense Murderer (Su) Know direction, no distance, to murderer. Verses murderer have constant true seeing and discern lies effects.
Spell Resistance (17) You have Spell Resistance.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Undead Traits Undead have many immunities.
Vulnerability to Cold You are vulnerable (+50% damage) to Cold damage.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
N N 959 wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
They have gone out of their way to not allow action degrading

I disagree. In fact, I would argue the opposite as they invoke concepts duration and provide us with information to convert one into another. I quoted the text on "Speak" and one can argue that it allows us to extend Free actions into other actions.

I would argue that it was ambiguous at best and even though this topic comes up over and over the language of rule books continues to tighten and reflect the 'non-conversion' principle. Example is any new class, and new feats that go out of their way to say 'swift' and then 'swift or move'. They didn't move away from the ambiguous language and instead have been making things very specific (to avoid the question) which explains how they view the rules, even without a direct statement as such.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Invalid wrote:

A decanter doesn't really produce the flow I need. I'm looking for enough water to keep a large kingdom running, which by my calculations would be around 76 million gallons per day. A decanter costs 4.5k gold to be crafted, and would produce about 2.5 million gallons per day, so you'd need 31 of them, which would come up to 139k gold. A first level caster kept as a slave could produce 115,000 gallons per day, which means you would need about 22 caster slaves to produce that. Assuming that spaces have no upkeep cost since they can expend a level one spell slot to be fully fed, that means it'd have to cost over 220ish gold to capture a caster for it to be less price effective then a decanter. In the setting I have in mind a 100 gold bounty would probably be enough to capture a Druid, even less if you hire a squad to do it.

Overall you'd need 661ish caster to fuel the nation, which would be 66,100 gold, less then half the price.

Plus it's a good evil kingdom plot hook.

Casters that can't operate 24x7 - and if pushed too much will collapse and die. They also need housing, clothing, food, water (for themselves) etc.

Decanters cost money once and are done. I'd just make magic illegal and put bounties on any caster heads - with perhaps a very high tax that allows a legal magic license....

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just to throw fuel on the fire -

You can already get 3 swift actions in a round (not turn). First is your own swift. Second is through a magic item. End your turn and use an immediate action (which is a swift action but uses your next turns swift now).

Bam - 3 swifts used in a single round.

They have gone out of their way to not allow action degrading - I believe this is because the vast horde of rules and character concepts that use swift and immediate as balancing factors and the testing/edge/corner cases that would come up if action swaps were allowed. Would it break the game? Who knows - and so it's not allowed.

For what it's worth the most common argument is about casting more than two spells per round - which is already theoretically possible as seen above. Standard action spell, quickened spell... before round is over pit happens and feather fall (immediate action) although by RAW the feather fall can't happen I believe due to the 1 spell (or 2 with quicken) hard rule - but figuring out a corner case that would make it work scares everyone - spells change the game after all.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Invalid wrote:

I understand it's intentional, but RAW can be worked around. Also, this isn't the players doing it, it's me using it as a plot point (So I basically have free reign to do anything, even if it's cheesy)

As for siccatite, that's an interesting idea. After reading it, it might even be better to go for the hot version and evaporate it. It'd be a bit of a stretch, but plausible.

A decanter of endless water produces 30 gallons a round at max flow. Why not just use one of those and avoid all the mental gymnastics to cheese a cantrip?

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We just finished Book 4 last night. Here is what I did to make the final fight a bit more challenging:

My players are level 13 mythic tier 1 - I have a wizard, cavalier, slayer, hunter (favored enemy giant of course), and a oracle of life follower (level 10 as a follower - the cavalier has leadership).

I used the mythic version of Mokmurian found in this forum under 'gm's guide to challenging fights' - with one exception - I gave him the dual initiative ability.

The party skipped 1/2 of the upper halls - and wiped out all of the lower halls but had decided to avoid the library until they explored the rest of the corner - and then met Big M - so they did not have the shining child fight.

They entered the fight with Big M down fairly well on resources - the last time they had rested was with Cona watching over them on the upper level - and they tackled the lower area without stopping. Big M had spied on them throughout the level - they even caught him doing it in the headless lord's gallery - the wizard was using detect magic and I let him see the divination effect on top of the headless 'statue' before they came to life.

So they met Big M with him being very prepped - the entered his hall (which btw - I needed 2 maps for) and saw a giant in robes with their back to them in the middle of the hall. Imitative and they hear a spell - solid fog right in front of them. They move around the fog cloud - they see the giant move 'oddly'. Cloudkill pours from above the ranger. Acid fog on top of the cavalier.

They move around the fogs and the ranger shoots the robed giant - the cavalier moves around the giant to charge and sees that it is Cona - tied up and made to look 'wizardy'.

The slayer moves up and frees Cona who shouts 'he's above you fools' (note 100 foot ceilings are dark and out of sight even though the hall is lit by continual light spells - they have a 30 foot through so the ceiling is in a shroud).

Cona casts fly on the slayer - black tentacles take out the ranger and oracle and wizard - the wizard uses a school power to teleport the oracle and himself out of the tentacles - the ranger struggles. The cavalier feeds a potion of fly to his dog and joins the air battle.

The fight went pretty predictable here - until the wizard said 'bring it' resulting in a failed save for the cavalier against disintegrate - and a failed save for the wizard against baelful polymorph - resulting in a rabbit (the wizard kept his mind intact however - and the slayer could understand him due to his helm of comprehend languages). The cavalier was nothing but a pile of dust - another disintegrate was almost failed for the slayer - however a mythic surge saved the day - and the players were able to finish off the 38 hit points Big M had left - resulting in a big victory (after the oracle used the scroll of true resurrection found in the black monk scroll).

We now take a brake as the wizard takes over GM duties for our wrath of the righteous game - and I prep for book 5 - the library will be played via email between games using the research system.

My players are now level 14 tier 1 - I plan to bring them to level 20 tier 3 by the end.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Remember that all haunts have a perception DC - let players notice the things. If you have a paladin - well they usually can handle all the haunts.

However here is where GM'ing become more of an art than a science - haunts are a cool way to give the players backstory - however when they were made (as of this adventure) they were considered more 'spooky traps' - the truth is they are a bit of both - but if you follow the evolution of haunts you find that they lean much more on the story side in new adventures - and less on the punishment.

If your players are having an easy time with the haunts - I'd let them roll as they are - if they aren't - well then I'd tone the penalties for failure down, perhaps only having every 3rd or 4th haunt be deadly.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ectar wrote:

I fail to see how spell sage even factors into this. Cleric VMC lets you "lose" a prepared spell of level 1 or higher, that is not a domain spell, to cast a cure spell of that level or lower.

Take note that the cleric Spontaneous Casting class feature doesn't call out losing a cleric spell prepared, just A prepared spell.
So a wizard VMC cleric could drop any prepared spell, probably except school spells, to cast cure spells.
VMC cleric says wrote:
She also gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.

Only if the spell is on the spell list of the class. Wizards don't have cure spells.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) can't convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player's choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy (see Channel Energy).

Deity: At 1st level, she must select a deity within one alignment step of her own. She gains the cleric's aura, bonus languages, code of conduct, and restriction from casting spells of opposed alignments. She also gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.
Spell Study (Su): At 2nd level, the sage's understanding of the spells of bards, clerics, and druids is so great that he can use his own magic in an inefficient, roundabout way to duplicate those classes' spells. Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

FAQ on this very question


New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

I laid it out for you - this doesn't work as you wish it to (officially).

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I really do wish we had emoticons here.<---serious comment.

I know we can do the :) and :( among others, but many people dont know what all of them mean.

It would make it easier to for people to note when they are being angry, just joking, and so on.

True, but I see that abused as well on other forums (example: posting something really offensive but then including a smily at the end, as if that excuses the previously written comment).

That is fine. When someone says something like "You are a moron", and put a smiley face at the end the the mods just ban you for a few days.

After enough bans, they just get perma-banned.

That is a self correcting problem.

If I ever decide to host a public forum like this my terms of service will include that all moderation action and communication with customer service will be made public.

I honestly think this is some of the problem (especially when the moderation action hits someone who is both liked and disliked by a number of people). It's easy when the company won't talk about things - for a poster to claim anything they want. Just as it's easy for the company to say 'oh yeah we got this we do all this' - which requires a truckload of trust.

The existence of this thread and amount of attention shown to the topic I think should be a red flag that the trust factor was harmed. The 'behind the scenes' way of doing things does put Paizo between a rock and a hard place here - even more reason to be very careful to not let personal feelings influence things IMO.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vatras wrote:

Ckorik's creation is certainly powerful, but CR 34 is way too high.

To be fair - that's the CR set by Hero Lab (which doesn't adjust for the removal of racial HD) - so that CR 34 would be if you added his 15 racial HD back in (which would also adjust his DC's on the racial abilities... prolly still too high honestly though).

I'd personally peg him as is at around CR 19 - although that would go up once you add any gear to him - currently he's ... well nekky.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Here is what Hero Lab does if you replace the HD with class levels (for what it's worth)....


Test demon CR 34
XP 9,830,400
Unique seraptis demon inquisitor of Orcus 20 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 5 76)
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +21; Senses darkvision 60 ft., deathwatch, true seeing; Perception +35
Aura gaze of despair (30 ft., DC 17), unholy aura (DC 25)
AC 33, touch 23, flat-footed 24 (+4 deflection, +8 Dex, +1 dodge, +10 natural)
hp 273 (20d8+180); blood healing
Fort +24, Ref +18, Will +25
Defensive Abilities stalwart; DR 10/cold iron, 10/good; Immune bleed, electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 26
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 4 claws +23 (1d6+8 plus grab), gore +23 (2d6+8)
Special Attacks chaos blade (10 rounds, 4/day), compelling domination, constrict (4d6+12 plus 2d6 bleed and 1d4 Strength drain), exploit weakness, greater bane (20 rounds/day), judgment 7/day (3 simultaneous), multi-arm grab, slayer, true judgment (DC 29)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +27)
. . Constant—deathwatch, true seeing, unholy aura (DC 25)
. . At will—crushing despair (DC 21), dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), telekinesis (DC 22)
. . 3/day—confusion (DC 21), demand (DC 25), dominate person (DC 22), fly
. . 1/day—summon (level 5, 1 seraptis 20% or 1 glabrezu 40%), symbol of insanity (DC 25)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +29)
. . 12/day—touch of chaos
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +29)
. . At will—detect alignment, discern lies (20 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 20th; concentration +29)
. . 6th (6/day)—blasphemy (DC 25), greater dispel magic, forbiddance, harm (DC 25), heal
. . 5th (7/day)—break enchantment, greater command (DC 24), flame strike (DC 24), righteous might, communal spell immunity[UC]
. . 4th (7/day)—greater brand[APG] (DC 23), chaos hammer (DC 23), divine power, find quarry[UC], freedom of movement, greater invisibility
. . 3rd (7/day)—deadly juggernaut[UC], dimensional anchor, heroism, magic circle against law, greater magic weapon, unholy ward
. . 2nd (7/day)—confess[APG] (DC 21), cure moderate wounds, inflict moderate wounds (DC 21), resist energy, silence (DC 21), spiritual weapon
. . 1st (8/day)—bane (DC 20), bless, divine favor, doom (DC 20), hex ward[UM] (DC 20), protection from good
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, guidance, read magic, resistance, virtue
. . Domain Chaos
Str 26, Dex 26, Con 26, Int 20, Wis 28, Cha 24
Base Atk +15; CMB +23 (+27 grapple); CMD 46
Feats Bleeding Critical, Combat Reflexes, Coordinated Charge[UC], Critical Focus, Dodge, Ferocious Loyalty, Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Martial Weapon Proficiency (scimitar), Multiattack, Outflank[APG], Overwhelm, Paired Opportunists[APG], Power Attack, Seize The Moment[UC], Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +31 (+47 to jump), Bluff +30, Fly +26, Intimidate +40, Knowledge (local) +25, Knowledge (nature) +28, Knowledge (planes) +28, Knowledge (religion) +28, Perception +35, Sense Motive +37, Spellcraft +28, Stealth +26; Racial Modifiers +8 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Protean; telepathy 100 ft.
SQ monster lore +9, solo tactics, stern gaze +10, track +10
Special Abilities
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Blood Healing (Su) Whenever a creature within 30 feet of a seraptis takes bleed damage caused by that seraptis, the blood flows through the air into the seraptis's maw, and the seraptis heals an equal amount of damage.
Chaos Blade (4/day) (Su) Touched weapon temporarily becomes anarchic.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Compelling Domination (Su) Dominated foes don't resist and only get new save with self destructive orders.
Coordinated Charge You may charge the same foe when an ally does
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (10/cold iron) You have Damage Reduction against all except Cold Iron attacks.
Damage Reduction (10/good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (20 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Energy Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Exploit Weakness (Ex) With a crit, ignore DR, suppress Regen, and take advantage of vulnerability.
Ferocious Loyalty +1 morale bonus vs. foe threatened by ally with this feat.
Gaze of Despair (DC 17) (Su) 30 ft, 1d6 Cha drain and staggered 1d6 rds, at 0 Cha attempt suicide.
Grab: Claw (Medium) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Greater Bane (+2 / 4d6, 20 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Immunity to Bleed You are immune to bleed.
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Inquisitor Domain (Chaos) Granted Powers: Your touch infuses life and weapons with chaos, and you revel in all things anarchic.
Monster Lore +9 (Ex) +9 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Multi-Arm Grab (Ex) When a seraptis successfully grabs a creature, the maws on her arms begin to gnaw on it. This ability functions as constrict, except the damage type is bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. A seraptis gains a cumulative +4 bonus on grapple attempts wi
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Overwhelm Flank if another with this feat threatens a foe, and that foe is 2+ sizes larger than both of you.
Paired Opportunists +4 to hit for AoOs if you and adj ally with this feat both threaten the target.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Seize the Moment When ally confirms a critical threat, you gain an attack of opportunity
Slayer (Judgment of Justice) (Ex) Selected Judgment is at +5 effective levels
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Spell Resistance (26) You have Spell Resistance.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Stern Gaze +10 (Ex) +10 to Sense Motive and Intimidate.
Summon (level 5, 1 seraptis 20% or 1 glabrezu 40%, 1/day) (Sp) Summon other creatures as though casting a summon monster spell with a limited chance of success.
Telepathy (100 feet) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.
Third Judgment (7/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Touch of Chaos (12/day) (Sp) With a melee touch attack, target takes the lower of 2d20 for each d20 roll for 1 round.
Track +10 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
True Judgment (DC 29) (Su) At 20th level, an inquisitor can call true judgment down upon a foe during combat.

Whenever an inquisitor uses her judgment ability, the inquisitor can invoke true judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, the inquisitor can make a s

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

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The most evil....

It is a ritual - held within the apocrypha of the codex of infinite evil - the few lines known to mortals have been whispered...

They go...


start a thread on a forum with the words "Would a paladin fall..."

Don't click the button unless you want your very existence to be imperiled by the evil contained within.

You have been warned.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Khudzlin wrote:
Why not just give 5 class levels to your Seraptis to bring it to CR 20?

It's not quite a one for one - when adding class levels to a monster they don't add 1 cr per class level. There is a formula based on the monsters role - and this particular demon doesn't gain CR from caster levels like another might - instead it gets about .5 CR per inquisitor level.

That being said - usually a 'helpful' npc should be 2 levels below the party as to not overshadow them (thus the leadership 2 levels below the character limitation) - unless you plan to play down the role of this demon in the group - or have them turn and attack - I'd keep the CR around 18 (thus 6 inquisitor levels).

/my two cents.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My level 4 half-orc (crossblooded) bloodrager: (this is raging - with power attack and demonic bulk activated)

Melee bardiche +8 (2d8+16/19-20) or
. . earth breaker +8 (3d6+16/×3) or
. . mwk greatsword +9 (3d6+16/19-20) or
. . bite +8 (1d6+11), 2 claws +8 (1d8+11)

I know it's not 5+ attacks but I felt he was doing pretty dang good :) He'll be going for improved natural attack. He's a primalist also but that won't actually matter until level 8ish so for the sake of people who don't like that - you can ignore it - it's not being used.

Entire character here if you are interested in how he's built - again this is with rage and power attack and demonic bulk active


Male half-orc bloodrager (crossblooded, primalist) 4 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 83, 84)
CE Large humanoid (human, orc)
Hero Points 1
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
AC 12, touch 6, flat-footed 12 (+6 armor, -1 Dex, -1 size, -2 untyped penalty)
hp 42 (4d10+16)
Fort +9, Ref +1, Will +2; +2 bonus vs. spells cast by self or an ally
Defensive Abilities blood sanctuary, thrune loyal agent, uncanny dodge
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee bardiche +8 (2d8+16/19-20) or
. . earth breaker +8 (3d6+16/×3) or
. . mwk greatsword +9 (3d6+16/19-20) or
. . bite +8 (1d6+11), 2 claws +8 (1d8+11)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +3 (1d8+8/×3) or
. . throwing axe +2 (1d8+7)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks blood casting, bloodrage (16 rounds/day), claws
Bloodrager (Crossblooded, Primalist) Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +5)
. . 1st (2/day)—blade lash[ACG], long arm[ACG]
. . Bloodline Abyssal, Draconic (esoteric)
Str 24, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 13
Base Atk +4; CMB +10 (+12 sunder); CMD 19 (21 vs. sunder)
Feats Endurance, Eschew Materials, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), erratic malefactor, thrune loyal agent
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +9, Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +8, Perception +8, Perform (sing) +5, Ride +1, Spellcraft +5, Survival +7, Swim +8
Languages Abyssal, Common, Orc
SQ demonic bulk, fast movement, hero points, orc blood
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (4), ghast retch flask[UE] (4), tanglefoot bag (4), unholy water (4); Other Gear mwk breastplate, +1 adaptive composite longbow, arrows (60), bardiche[APG], earth breaker[UE], mwk greatsword, throwing axe (4), cloak of resistance +1, ale (per gallon), backpack, belt pouch, blanket[APG], flint and steel, icecap ale (4), on horse, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, heavy horse (combat trained), bit and bridle, riding saddle, saddlebags, 932 gp, 4 sp
Special Abilities
Blood Casting (Su) Cast bloodrager spells while in bloodrage.
Blood Sanctuary +2 (Su) +2 bonus to save vs. spells cast by self or an ally.
Bloodrage (16 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +0 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Demonic Bulk (Su) When entering bloodrage, can choose to increase size by one category (as enlarge person).
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Magic Claws (Ex) 2 Magic Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.

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knightnday wrote:

You cannot expect people to comport themselves politely after years in the same place? Er... people do it all the time at jobs. Again, it's a matter of don't want to, not cannot.

It's a double standard. There are expectations that mods should leave their bad day or personal likes/dislikes at the door and comport themselves professionally, but when it is suggested that posters do the same you'd think that we're asking for the moon.

Myself I'd hold to one standard - that people can have a bad day.

Personally I didn't even realize that you could get 'banned' from these forums - although it doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is that someone with a long history of adding value to the forums would be removed due to a bad day. 'Value' here is subjective - however I think that regardless of how you define 'value' - a great deal of the value of these forums isn't created by Paizo - but instead it is created by the fans willing to interact and be excited about the game. This is where things get murky however the 'value' of the forums at some level must be worth the effort in hosting, computer power, and salaries needed to keep them running.

I don't believe that you can make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time without never stating an opinion. The simple fact is - on a forum like this someone who posts *more* will end up being in 'trouble' *more* by simple virtue of being seen by *more* eyeballs. So with all this being said - going to my first point again - 'people can have a bad day'. Combine that with the idea of 'value', and that a prolific poster with a very long history brings more 'value' to the forums - I think that should factor in when talking about a permanent ban.

I personally hope that if an account gets a history and hundreds of posts (or more) that something as serious as a ban is handled by Paizo with more than one person reviewing the infraction, and even a possible cooling off period to ensure it's not an over-reaction. That may happen - currently it's impossible to know, and that generates fear.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Take Acid...


1d6 acid

acid btw - ignores DR.

Now give a bunch of these to your mooks - touch ac - 1d6 damage - no DR... yup - it can be brutal.... it's been postulated acid flasks are the sole reason that humans survive in a world of magical beasts and dragons...

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Will there be an interactive maps for this (like Runelords?)
Yup! It will be available separately and in the PDF version of the compilation. If you purchase the PDF version of the compilation, it also will come with a separate file containing player handouts :)

This is awesome! Thank you!

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Will there be an interactive maps for this (like Runelords?)

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You guys are missing the gold here...

Klar's can have vorpal or keen edge.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

OK using the 'cook' example - lets say your profession (cook) skill is a 20 (for whatever reason) and the DC is only 10. So even if you roll a 1 - it's going to be the best thing the pirates have ever eaten. You are such a good chef your 'throw it on a plate' and what seems horrible to *you* is 5 star quality for everyone else. You have a problem now - all your training and practice has you at the point where your worst effort is cuisine - and I'd make you roll a profession check in this case to sabotage your efforts - and force yourself to oversalt/etc. with the idea that it's hard for you to do even this - as what you consider 'horrid' is *still* the best food a common person ever ate.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Protoman wrote:

How it's supposed to work officially, Paizo still has to clarify that. Recently they gave indication that it'll be brought up for discussion for FAQ, but nothing so far.

Really? I'd love to see pathfinder move away from the 'amulet of mighty fists is the only way to enchant unarmed damage' and go to gauntlets and or handwraps. I was pretty sure that the only way to increase unarmed damage die was to use 'no weapon' - which includes gauntlets.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
I think hardness should be applied before temporary HP or it really hurts the high CR robots who depend on their forcefield for a big chunk of their HP. I would fluff it as the forcefield reinforces the structure/body to fight off any damage as applied, rather than an external bubble that gets hit first. If you play it as an external bubble it wouldn't make any sense to apply armor or natural armor to your AC, either. You can hit the forcefield even if you can't hit the robot.

Well if you assume it's a bubble then sure... but what if a forcefield is just a very thin 'skin' that lays over the top of a creature - and so is in all ways affected by AC/dex/movement/etc. Then consider that such a force field is reinforced by the structure under it thus making hardness useful :)

So yeah without a hard rule (which we don't have) it's how you justify it in your mind - and so expect table variation and ask your GM how they are going to handle it.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber



Book 4: It's not Mokmurian that's gone mad with power, it's Conna. She killed her husband and created the haunt under Jorgenfist. The runeforge cauldron doesn't make runeslaves, it lets her mass produce flesh golems. Or bathing in it doesn't kill giants, it gives them stoneskin for a week. Replace the roc's with dragons and the harpy monks with erinyes devils. Mokmurian is a downtrodden runt that while mistreated by his peers still seeks to free them from the horrible fate he foresees. He Wormtongues it with Conna to stay in her good graces and secretly allies with the pc's. And when it would inconvenience the pc's the most, he sneaks in and steals the scrollcase from the Black Monk, sending him and his erinyes minions on the warpath to find it. Mokmurian gets the anethma archive and tries to use it to Wish some outcome differently (not sure what this is) but whatever it is, it goes horribly wrong. For everyone. Maybe it sends them back in time to when the Black Tower was filled with Peacock Spirit wizard-monks, who obviously react with violence to the intruders. The only way back is for one of the pc's to try to use the archive to wish them back home. That can backfire with insanity a few times before it actually works.

I've already setup big M as the bad guy here - but the rest of that is so f'n epic that I'm stealing it.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber


you could view this as your player being so excited about the game he's consuming other media to get his fix.

Is the point of this game to be surprised by [insert cliche] here and [plot trope used in every fantasy game every here] and then be shocked when the bad guys are [generic fantasy monster here]. Do GM's seriously get upset if players go into a 'wrath of the righteous' campaign and figure out that demons are a normal enemy? Reading the players guide doesn't it already tell you giants are a huge theme and rangers should take them as a favored enemy?

I usually take it that the point of the game is to adventure with my friends, role play (ACTING! Said in my best Jon Lovitz voice) a different type of character than I am in real life, and have fun. Knowing the main enemies isn't going to spoil this adventure - honestly he'd know the enemies if he read the 'blurb' on the back of each of the adventures - I look at it like a movie trailer or blurb - if the marketing material gives out more as 'spoiler' than you are comfortable with the problem may not be with other people.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
So really code violations are not an autofall for paladin's. Thank you.
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).
Paizo removed the 'grossly' qualifier. Any code violation means falling in Pathfinder.

This is the advice forum. Here we follow rules as intended. For the advice forum that is horrible advice.

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When does this paladin fall?


When the GM notes the paladin does things oddly and then sits down out of game and asks the player if they would like to play a 'paladin falls' redemption story. Only when both player and GM agree this is a story that the game wants to tell does the 'fall' happen.

Asking this question means you didn't pick another option and tell your player before the game started. All other options require you and the player to have already set limits and lines in the sand prior to them being crossed. Without this discussion anything you do to a player is arbitrary and unfair, due to the differences any two people on earth will have regarding what is 'evil' and what is not. Have the discussion now and offer to allow the player to pick any other class because as the GM this is your responsibility - not the players - to make them aware you are going to be 'one of those GMs' where paladins aren't a real choice but a trap.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well the conflict of interest seems to be how you want to use the setting - and your players want the setting to be a foe.

Honestly - this is something you guys need to sit down and talk about 'out of game' as friends - and not as 'players and gm.' My personal advice with the information given here is that you both should avoid using the setting at all in your motivations, backstory, or story elements - because your obvious 'favorite' status, and the players obvious 'hatred' are only going to cause conflicts if you try to do anything with the setting.

Do I think a 'overthrow the queen' campaign could be epic? HELL YES.

Do I think a 'unintended consequences' campaign (where say you kill the queen at level one through some kind of unique 'right time right place' deus ex machina event - only to have literal hell on earth happen due to a clause in the contract) could be awesome? HELL YES.

Do I think that a 'show the players who's boss' campaign could be awesome? HELL NO!

And there is the rub - one of those plots upsets you. The second one will upset the players unless they are *interested* in that kind of plot to begin with. The third will make the GM happy - until the players all quit or go out of their way to get back at the GM - in short the last version of events will ruin your group.

Before you get to the point of actually having anger and hurt feelings over a game - it would be better to either stop playing or agree on what is 'off limits' so you don't tread those waters.

/my two cents.

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Hey James,

Hope you have a safe and happy weekend. In the spirit of 'letting people know' I thought I'd chime in that I've been in the hobby for 20 years and you are a singular inspiration to the reason I'm now 4 books ('books' as they'd have been printed) into rotrl as a GM. The excitement about how you run your games and frankly the answers to rule questions are what actually made me excited to give it a shot.

Up until that point I had never read answers from anyone who espoused a 'Figure out what's more fun and go with that as an answer' philosophy as to how to play the game. So thank you - not just for an awesome product - but for being awesome. I have played 1st, 2nd, 3rd, (skipped 3.5 oddly), shadowrun (back in 91 - no idea what version), GURPS, RIFTS, TMNT, etc. etc. - rules are rules - the game is always fun when it's about the ideas.

To keep the post legal - do you prefer 'clicky' keyboards, 'soft touch' or 'chiclet' (like a laptop) - myself I prefer soft touch.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber


Mummy's Mask AP has this exact scenario:


Trap: Those who pass through the tall archway on the
right are struck with a symbol of pain unless they enter
presenting a gift (a gem or piece of artwork worth at least
5,000 gp).
XP 9,600
Type magic; Perception DC 34; Disable Device DC 34
Trigger location; Duration 1d4 rounds; Reset none; Bypass
special (see above)
Effect spell effect (heightened symbol of pain [9th level],
Fortitude DC 29 negates); multiple targets (all targets
passing through the right-hand arch to area E24)

Note that when used this way a symbol spell becomes a trap and it still has perception and disable dc's. Considering the players are expected to be at least level 16 at this point the given DC's are trivial. A better use of a symbol is on a shield of a servant that has a cloth cover, or some other way to use it actively.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
swoosh wrote:

Isn't that just a slightly better version of pounce for 2-5 feats depending on level? That's pretty underwhelming tbh.

No it's not - it's better than pounce, because you only have to hit on your best attack bonus - and if your hit is a crit, then you autocrit the entire attack chain.

Pounce requires a to hit roll for each attack, and one crit doesn't make your entire attack chain a crit. Pounce also requires a full round action where mythic vital strike does not - meaning your move action can be a 'non move' - so it's more versatile. It only really comes into it's own when added with mythic power attack though. Even 'pounce-light' like pummeling strike require you to use your attack chain to add up damage - mythic vital strike is not 'just slightly better pounce'

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Chemlak wrote:

1) Open PDF of UE 2nd printing.

2) Turn to page 12.
3) ?
4) Profit!
Okay, how do I open the PDF of UE 2nd printing? Where do I find it?

For the record, the Errata changes citation document doesn't list it (and neither does the PRD). Why, I don't know. Could be a mistake forgotten to be put into the Errata document (how convenient), could be something that took place after the Errata document was published (more likely), who knows.

Regardless, you have to buy the PDF from the site in order to get the actual PDF copy from the products page in order to actually see the text for yourself. The other alternative is that you take Gisher's citation for what it is, a citation in the 2nd printing PDF. If you feel spending ~10 dollars for self-confirmation, then by all means do so. Others may not feel that way, however.

It was my understanding that the most up to date rules source would always be the PRD - which is where PFS GMs are told to look.

Any ruling - even posted to the boards here by the dev team - is unofficial until it hits the PRD. That's why 'FAQs' are not so easy to answer as it requires co-ordination between multiple groups and they try to have the PRD text go live at the same time as the response.

If you think that the dev team hasn't read this thread you are woefully wrong - (Hi Mark! Hi Jason!) - Paizo is very active on the forums - I'm very sure they'd love to explain what the mistake was (obviously a mistake) but they need to co-ordinate all the groups involved and hash out what they are going to keep - and the current policy would (bad for them trying to make this rule stick) mean they need to use the *CURRENT IN PRINT* rules until they can errata the book again at next printing.

This is another reason why many of us think they need to change their errata policy to work off a different schedule than the printing runs. Or for them to accept FAQ's without them having to be tied to a specific product perhaps.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dear dev team.

If you mark this no FAQ required it will be asked again. Your policy on 'no FAQ required' needs to change from 'it's obvious to us' to something along the lines of 'if we keep getting this question our rule language sucks - simply it at the least'.

Thank you and FAQ'd.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have to ask - considering the question was answered the argument is moot at this point. Your options here are:

  • Accept the ruling (with grace if you were on the winning side - not the same thing as correct guys) and game happy
  • Decide you don't like the ruling (with grace if you were on the losing side - not the same things as incorrect either) and game happy
  • Either way realize that the difference in damage on a shield bash is hardly game breaking and the rules are most likely due to some obscure interaction that would be unbalancing if they allowed this - much larger changes in balance and function have happened and the game moves on
  • Much like other rule changes - the important thing is to know it happened so you can have a home rule to make it how you want it - that way if someone has a book that is printed with the updated rules (that you don't like) you can point to your home rule without confusion.

Game on guys - rehashing this for another 100 posts won't change anything (or any minds) - this doesn't even effect PFS because you can't create magic items in PFS - home rule away!

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
McBaine wrote:

Hi, I will start a Rise of the Runelords campaign with my group of players in about 2 weeks. We finished the Carrion Crown Adventure Path and will finish the Legacy of Fire Adventure Path next week. Two of my players have complained that they got tired of the same enemies over and over again. In Carrion Crown it was undead and in Legacy of Fire it was Efreeti and other Fire based monsters.

In Rise, the first book is heavy on Goblins, the second has quite a variety of enemies but starting from the third book it is giants in all forms: Ogres, Trolls, Hill-, Stone-, Cloud and Rune Giants etc.

I see these players hitting giant fatigue soon when the Adventure Path progresses. Are there other monsters that would fit in the theme and make sense as Karzoug's minions?

tl;dr: Are there other fitting enemies than mostly various giants for the end of Rise of the Runelords?

Thanks in Advance

Hrmmm are you sure you actually read through the adventure?

I'm gonna spoiler this because it's not like you couldn't cheat and just read it as a player anyway but just in case you aren't the GM and want to actually be surprised ...


Book 1 - goblins, boars, zombies, extraplaner hounds, humans, demons

Book 2 - ghouls, ghasts, zombies, undead bats, haunts, humans, golems, lamias

Book 3 - ogrekin, ogres, humans, giant creatures of doom, ettin, trolls, mechanical constructs, stone giants, lamias, hags

Book 4 - stone giants, dragons, harpies, mummies, zombie giants, rune-giants, zombie giants, shining children, redcaps, spiders, lamias

Book 5 - humans, demons, dragons, humans, demons, undead (various), liches, humans, humans

Book 6 - haunts, wendigo, yeti, dark children, angled hounds, leng stuff, giants (of all kinds), dragons, devils, lamias, humans

If you read through the entire adventure and all you saw was 'giants' after book 3 then I don't know what to say.... they are a common foe - I'll grant you - but outside of book 4 they are hardly the majority - and when they become common again an entire book and a half has gone by so not quite fatigue inducing.

Ogres and giants are not the same thing.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
opakedragon wrote:

Can you create a custom staff with one of the nonspell abilities of another staff? For example:

4,600 gp: +1/+1 quarterstaff (2,300 gp +2,300 gp masterwork and +1 enhancement for each side of the double weapon)
1,600 gp: Ray of enfeeblement (200 gp * 1 spell level * 8 caster level / 1 charge)
4,800 gp: Spectral hand (300 gp * 2 spell level * 8 caster level / 1 charge)
9,600 gp: Vampiric touch (400 gp * 3 spell level * 8 caster level / 2 charges)
9,400 gp: apply any metamagic feats (30,000 gp - 20,600 gp)

Adding metamagic feat use to a staff cost 9,400 gp? and 4,700 to craft?

You can do the first part and enchant a staff as a magic weapon by the book. The second ability isn't something you can do and would need to be GM approved.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gulthor wrote:

Thematically, Divine Source is incredible. Mechanically it's so-so,

Oddly my biggest worry about taking it is that it's so powerful...

In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains)

So one ability gives you 1 spell per tier selected from your two domains. Taking the ability more gives you more choice but the first dip is what gives you the power - considering that any character can take this and have access to 1-9 level casting (with seriously nice spells to choose from).


Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

So no material component and no need for a free hand, verbal, or somatic gestures.... and that can include spells like limited wish, resurrection, true resurrection...

Considering the overall power of a mythic campaign - perhaps not overpowering. However I'd say that this has a mechanical advantage to anyone that takes it.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dastis wrote:

Did this to a group once. They were locked in a large mansion with a significant boss(2nd from final in evil heirarchy). The players were level 10 at the time so plane shift, scrying, and teleport were operational

When he cast the spell I explained "If you fail this saving throw you get sent to a random location on the material plane. Whoever makes it gets to stay and fight a CR inappropriate lich who's phylax is currently unknown. Each of you has about a 20% chance of succeeding a save. Who volunteers to fail their save?"

Gave each a percentile chance to see how bad their situation was. The next session began with a quick comedic scene for each of them going from best off to worst. The trick was to keep the not active players laughing. They spent the rest of the session finding each other then researching the lich

This sounds awesome - and I think that's exactly how I'm going to run with it (and have backups plans for what happens if they try and fight - because players).

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I believe the holy word (and it's unholy side) do not give a save for the banish effect.

It's 'if you are on your home plane any non good (or evil) extraplaner creatures are banished' - all other effects are save or suck (up to dead but my players are high enough to avoid that effect). If I'm wrong about how that spell works I will need to rethink things for sure.

"The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."

Hrmmm - that'll be interesting then. I may have to have a geas ready to use if anyone manages to save. I could always mind fog the area but with my luck half the party will roll 20's on the save anyway. Good news is they will be paralysed even if they make the save so if I have 'alternate plans' ready it gives me a reason to not destroy them outright and keep the story moving.

So - regarding the entire spell then - one will save - and even if they save against the 'suck' parts the same save at -4 for banishment? Or would you make them roll separate saves?

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