Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 167 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.
I think "advancing the timeline five to ten years, so that the storyline can progress a bit" is by far not as egregious than "advancing the timeline a hundred years, ripping up whole continents, changing out entire races, dumbing down the pantheon and in the process killing off almost all human characters the players knew".
I'm 100% with you on having been deeply disappointed and dismayed with what happened to the Forgotten Realms, which priorily were my favorite fantasy setting.
To my mind, that's the PC's job.
But the PCs can't advance the timeline of the published world. Because every set of PCs does something different.
They've already done it a little bit, with Shattered Star assuming that RotRL has happened.
Shattered Star assumed RotRL happened - and Second Darkness - and Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Jade Regent assumed RotRL happened.
If they played it right advancing the timeline could be an entirely new product line - with monthly or bi-monthly status :) I know I'd sub in a second.
1. You can buy holy water for cheap. 25g a bottle - assuming you guys have done the glassworks you should have been able to find enough loot to buy some of this stuff (and it's super cheap if you have a cleric).
That's 2d4 dmg on a touch attack to shadows - everyone in the group should carry 1-2 flasks of this stuff for 'undead' emergencies - it works against anything undead with no DR applied.
2. You can still move with strength damage - as others have said.
Hopefully you guys can learn from this and think about some consumables to carry for situations like this.
Shadows aren't the only monster that some cheap consumable items really help against - diminutive swarms (weapons can't hurt them) - puddings - other types of monsters with high DR...
Acid ignores most DR and Holy Water ignores all undead DR - tanglefoot bags can make an 'impossible to hit' enemy just a 'hard to hit' enemy - at some point you will most likely have enough stuff to ignore the consumables but they are very nice to have through much of an adventuring career.
In a world with monsters and such - how does your average village survive? Well 100 villagers with acid flasks can take out some very nasty monsters - including many sizes of dragons :)
I'm not a fan of how the OP crafted his post - but after distilling it I'll chime in with a 'me too' vote - however I'd like to offer a compromise a bit in my request like so...
Example #1 - Sandpoint - why is this so awesome - well each place has a shop - a name - a bit of personality - and some notes on how they interact with the rest of the town.
I have been running RoTRL with my group and all I needed to make that town come alive was my town guide with these notes - every shop NPC has been different and interesting to my players because all I needed was a few notes on personality and how the NPC interacts to make a 'real' town come alive.
Example #2 - City of Monuments - awesome book - lots of info I needed on Magnimar - however the city is so large it won't ever have the 'plop down and play' value of Sandpoint.
Example #3 - ISWG - awesome book - almost nothing that is 'play ready' for the GM without alot of fleshing out - I'm not saying the book wasn't awesome - in fact at my table 7 out of 8 people love it - and the last one just isn't a big book buyer so has no opinion, that should say alot.
Taking all 3 above here is what I'd love to see happen - make a *player companion* that take a 'who's who' of a town/city etc. and takes give us a bit of a tour of the place - along with NPC's and personalities - interactions (rumors that may or may not be true). This doesn't have to be a town - it can be a secret network, a bit higher level as a country setting - a village, whatever.
There is a reason gossip rags sell well - something written the players can dive into - that can also be super useful for a GM would be handy, as well as giving more depth to a place.
I would love something like that - and I think if it's something written as a player travel guide it would be something your players would buy and read - and if you used a 'gossip rag' format - it would be easy enough for a GM to ignore or change any detail without feeling 'hemmed in' by an official text entry.
I think I'll stick with Reaper and give the Reaper ink a try.
Ckorik, a couple follow up questions ...
When you say the Bones minis are very light ... do you mean light even compared to other plastic minis (Pathfinder Battles, D&D minies etc) or compared to metal?
Also, Bones supposedly do not need primed before painting (assuming you wash them well, as you and others have pointed out). Did you prime your tests anyway because it was what your were more comfortable with or did you find that, even after washing, they still NEEDED to be primed?
In fact, I think I'll make a new thread about the priming question so this one can remain about ink washes etc ...
I would say they are similar (in hand feeling I didn't use a scale) to the pre-printed wizkids.
They are OMG light compared to a metal mini. Depending on your table (physical that is) and how boisterous your group is you may want to weigh them down - my table is pretty sedate other than the random runaway dice roll so it's not a big deal for me. Over on the reaper forums people have mentioned using metal washers that fit under the base to add weight to them - and they are cheap (the metal washers that is - find a size that works and typically you can get a bag for a few bucks).
As to the primer - the bones will work with paint *out of the bottle* - specifically after watching a half dozen vids of people testing out paint on them - paint out of the bottle seems to work fine - with reaper paints actually behaving better (not a surprise really - opinion only here but the reaper paints really do perform well).
The problem there is - acrylic paint dries very fast - most people will mix a paint flow medium and water to the paint - this increases the flow of the paint from the brush to the mini and keeps the paint 'wet' longer - more advanced painters even use a 'wet palette' which keeps the paint from drying out.
If you do this - your paint is thinner than it is out of the bottle - this doesn't work so well on an unprimed bones plastic mini.
So the claim is true - paint (not ink) goes on to an unprimed just fine. If you plan to thin your paint or use ink however you will find a primer coat works as well and makes the mini paint just like a metal one.
Also in case you might think the plastic gives less detail - I point you to this thread over at reaper:
One is a metal - the other is plastic - I'm not sure the plastic is going to be preferred for competition level painting but I don't think I will ever doubt that the bones will carry all the detail that I want/need for my gaming table. :)
But of course, your scenarios don't actually create a conflict if you read the actual code, as written.
Yes they do.
ciretose wrote:
You are arguin something is more restrictive than it is, so you can then argue it is bad.
You then go on to point out definitions for the alignment - which I'm not arguing - I'm talking about the code.
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Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If the authority is legitimate - then she must respect it. If she doesn't she falls. No alignment juggle here.
That line alone conflicts with the rest of the code - because you can't be ultimate law *and* good when there is ultimate *law* and *evil* in the world.
Unless the code is bendable - then we are back to 'which axis is more important'.
You are taking both sides of the argument and it's disingenuous. You can't have a 'break the code and fall' on the same line as 'it's not as restrictive as you are making it'.
I didn't say it was restrictive - I say the code is flexible it's the good part that's rigid.
Respect legitimate authority, not obey without question.
I think that covers all of em.
Got anything else?
As I pointed out the authority was legitimate. As I pointed out your code is absolute - so in each case the paladin would need to respect the legitimate authority.
Case 1) - he can choose to disobey - but that's putting good above the law - a chaotic action. He can choose to obey the law - by committing an evil act, then he falls. As stated the king is legitimate - you can't just decide to ignore the law when it's against your ethics - that's chaotic.
Case 2) - he can't go wage war on a plane where his very presence is against the law - that'd be a chaotic action.
Case 3) - he can go inform the king and leave the innocents to suffer - he'd be following his alignment - but not the code. You can't save people from the law - that's chaotic. He could try to stop the sheriff but that's against the law as well. Chaotic. What exactly are his options when confronted by evil that is operating within the law? Nothing if his code is rigid.
In each of these cases the lawful part of his alignment infringes on his ability to be a champion of virtue. Because laws can be evil (and frequently are) making his alignment a straight jacket along both axis force him into situations where there is no good solution - it's too absolute.
No other class has anything even close to that kind of restriction on alignment - it takes more than a single good act to make an evil person good - and vice versa. It takes more than one stolen loaf of bread to change someone from lawful to chaotic.
A paladin already has a single absolute - one evil act. There is nothing that states a single chaotic act causes them to fall - enforcing the code as a 'one shot you fall' is too restrictive.
I stopped reading here, because you clearly aren't reading the same thread as I am.
No one has even come up with one decent "trap" scenario.
None.
Not one.
If you can't even start the post honestly, I'm not going to waste time reading what follows, because you apparently need to build a soapbox to stand on out of nothing in this thread.
If you would like to come up with one, feel free. But the fact that no one has been able to kind of shows how false the premise is.
Paladin enters the throne room of the legitimate king and is told to execute the high priest of his god, who radiates good like a sun, and whose death would break the church.
A lawful order - his choice is fall or fall, due to the code.
If he kills the priest - he commit an evil act. If he does not he breaks the law - of a legitimate authority.
If the code is absolute you can't disobey the king, who is a legitimate authority.
A paladin goes to hell and kills a devil - he falls. Hell is a plane run by devils - and they are the legitimate authorities of the plane - by killing a devil he breaks their laws - and thus by the code he falls.
A paladin is in charge of an army waging a war against the evil king Foozle (the war - being declared makes the action legal of course) - he is captured - now he's a prisoner and told to reveal the plans of his army or the evil king Foozle will sacrifice 100 children to a demon. His choice is to betray his kingdom or sacrifice children - what a choice.
It's easier than that really.
The good king clement sets up a major kingdom - while traveling through the kingdom our paladin comes into the hamlet of Nottingham where he find the LE sheriff abusing his power. The sheriff of course radiates evil like a black hole. Unfortunately he's the legitimate authority and the paladin has no ability to interfere.
The sheriff rubs this in the paladins face and then shows the paladin the law stating 'a person who doesn't pay their taxes is the same as someone who steals from the king' - then he pulls out another volume with an ancient but still valid law allowing him to draw and quarter anyone who steals from the king - and explains that because of the poor harvest no one in town could pay and so he has the right to kill anyone at any time in the most horrific way possible. The peasants are innocent and...
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punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
So what part of the code does the paladin obey here - he can choose to go inform the king - and the sheriff points out that if the paladin leaves he will make sure everyone is punished before he can get back - or he can stand by and watch, because interfering with the kings appointed man is against the law, even if done for good reasons.
Some paragon of good.
That's the problem with a code that is inflexible.
Having painted some of these as a test - inks don't work on the base plastic well.
More so than metal mini's you want to wash these with some soap and water then let dry - they use a compound to release the plastic from the mold and if there is any residue after you are done painting your paint will just flake off - not good - a wash keeps this from happening so it's *super* important on the bones.
After the wash I prime them with spray on kylon (krylon? sp?) - after they are primed they paint just like any metal mini - other than the fact that they can float away with a sharp breath :)
Because they are so light - you might find you like using a metal washer along with a base of some sort (glue the washer to the base - glue the mini to the base (other side)) to give them a bit of weight - they don't fall over when used without - but they are *very* light.
Once all this is done - you will find that after painted and coated they are *much* more durable than a metal mini - you can keep a dozen of them in a plastic bag (loose) and they won't chip each other or mar the paint.
Some people have done experiments with a painted figure by running it over with a car and only had a slight mar - not that I recommend that - but that should show you they are much more durable than a metal figure.
I'm not sure how I'm going to tackle the translucents - obviously I won't want to prime them so I'll most likely be using reaper paint straight from the bottle (no thinners) to add highlights for those.
That's another thing - ink won't/doesn't work on an unprimed bones figure - and thinned out paint (using flow enhancer and water for instance) causes similar problems from the vid's I've seen - straight paint from the bottle seems to stick without an issue - but that means you don't have much time to work with the paint before it dries up on you. That's why I prefer the primer.
If the Paladin falls in game, something in game judged them and found them lacking.
That is the Authority over the Paladin. That the GM is adjudicating it is no different than the GM adjudicating what would make a God displeased with a cleric, or if it is a sunny or a cloudy day.
Yes and as this thread shows - too many GM's look at the fall line and think that they must come up with a way to trap the paladin into some kind of catch 22.
The old... 'if you go back in time would you kill the bad guy' thing. Players too tend to feel like they can't do anything out of line with a paladin in the party, because the rules setup the paladin as a hall monitor - when it's intended to be a champion of good - the entire part about a 'paladin working with evil if it can benefit the good' shows that there is alot of room for the stick to bend without breaking.
A single chaotic act doesn't change your alignment - and in a paladin's case (special case) a single evil act tosses you down the well.
Golarian campaign wise there are codes that allow paladins to lie - so the code already is flexible and it seems would depend on your deity and how the campaign is being run. This to me certainly spells out that the guys making the rules intended paladins to have some ability to flex without breaking at each possible moment.
The fact that so many people want to make them paladins into a hollow concrete pole that breaks with the slightest movement to any side shows why there is such rancor over this subject.
If the code was so rigid you wouldn't ever see such iconic things as 'a paladin in hell' - because hell is legitimate - and the code says a paladin will accept legitimate authority.
I shudder to think of a world where a paladin goes off to battle evil and stops at the river because that's evil king Foozle's realm... and well you know he's the legitimate king there so he can slaughter babies all he likes and there is nothing I can do about it because of the code.
The code can cause a paladin to do evil - because any lawful evil person will know the code and use it as a whip to get the paladin to do whatever they want - as long as the law is legitimate. That's just a fine paradox you place any player in by making it so rigid, and why I can't support that kind of stance.
I'd sure give a paladin who tosses his code as worthless the fall condition - but one who would break the code after consideration - knowing that he risks his status if he choose wrong - and does so trying to uphold the greater values shouldn't be considered fallen. Way too many people though look at this as a way to trap the player and that's why paladins turn into these unthinking 'big bag of lawful stoopid' tropes you see - because if they don't they get bitten by the 'hahahaha if you tell the truth you screw your party and if you lie you fall' traps (or other such contrivances.)
This isn't a fall or temptation or moment of weakness here we're talking about with being an Anti. This is full blown "I'm evil as sin and enjoy actively promoting evil in others."
Would it have to be though? A demon or devil that fooled the paladin (it's possible to do with the right magical protection against the flashlight of justice... I mean detect evil) could convince the paladin that a course was right and just - and corrupt the guy into a moment when he changes - now he's stuck and perhaps didn't even realize that he changed.... That would take some work in game and good RP in co-ordination with the GM to pull off - but the story of a guy who is prodded into the wrong path until he can't tell what he stood for and then finds redemption is a strong one.
I'd say paladins of Sarenrae could always redeem no matter what (just because it's the nature of the deity) - other than that I think it would depend on the story and how the fall happened.
Well, this interpretation is as least as valid as any other I've seen on this thread.
Well considering the arguments that get written about a single word that is phrased oddly in a rule (sunder, spell combat, haste, monk FoB) the RaW in this case are as clear as you can be - they spell out the clause that can make a paladin fall - and it's a single line with a period.
No ambiguity or odd phrases - no odd wording with double meaning or possibly misunderstood words.
A GM can stretch it however they want in their own game - but from the rulebook itself there aren't all these grey areas.
A paladin looses his status if he knowingly commits an evil act.
full stop.
He can do an unlawful act - he's still a paladin.
He can lie if it serves the good. He's still a paladin.
He can break his code - he's still a paladin.
He can be charmed and do something against his will - he's still a paladin.
They have to knowingly commit an evil act to fall.
Would the above acts ... should the above acts cause the paladin to seek some kind of atonement - yes - but not necessarily through the spell - that's a right that is only required if you fall.
Anything else is RP opportunity - personally I think people get to wrapped up in the 'code' and forget there is only a single line in the rules that result in a fall from grace - and the line is not vague or unclear....
Some paladin codes (in the PF campaign world) actually encourage a paladin to lie if needed - some don't - none of them can cause a paladin to fall from grace.
The code is a personal RP structure to let the paladin judge himself against - it's exactly the kind of thing a paladin is encouraged to do - that is judge his actions himself - that's part of what sets him apart from the rest of the fighters.
knowledge for monsters is typically DC 10+HD - but don't always just use that as a basis - take into account how well known monsters are as well.
Consider that almost every culture on our own world has some kind of vampire legend - so finding a bloodsucker shouldn't be cause for 'I have no idea what this could be' - you can even have fun with it and make weaknesses that mold with local legends (weak against silver here, but only cold iron in this region... etc)
I tend to give away mook monsters (goblins, orcs, etc.) and try to take into account how well known a monster is in the area or how well talked about it might be.
Play up local legends and let the player research a bit to help them out also :) A party that takes time to look up what they are fighting shouldn't really even need to make a check.
That being said in your specific case I would have the balance how strict I want to keep the game with the idea that your 11 year old is so excited he's going to the library to do outside the game research on what they are fighting - honestly do the positives (getting your kid engaged and into the library and learning research skills that will be *very* helpful through his life) outweigh the game concerns here?
I know what I'd do - but it's your kid and your game so I'm not going to presume :)
Ckorik these are great! Thanks! One question, do you (or anyone else) have advice for printing these? I hate to say it but I am not sure how to print these out without wasting lots of paper.
Thanks again!
Ckorik wrote:
Early on someone posted a 'items cards' using open office - I've updated these for the AV version and have finished Burnt Offerings - all player loot that is in the module (except coins) is represented here - enjoy :)
I use HP 4x6 photo paper and print the PDF's using 'fit to size' (making sure my printer is setup for 4x6 paper in the printer properties) - they come out perfect at that size.
Just remember that the cost of purchasing a spell isn't the cost of a scroll - it's the cost of copying the spell from another caster.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html
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In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
so using the table referenced on the same page:
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0 5 gp
1 10 gp
2 40 gp
3 90 gp
4 160 gp
5 250 gp
6 360 gp
7 490 gp
8 640 gp
9 810 gp
Also not true, barring special abilities, since Aid Another is a standard action - you only get one per round, and if you used it to aid the trip you can't use it to Aid an AoO.
Missed that - thank you :)
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Even assuming the Magus had this on a scroll (we know he didn't have it prepared), there's a Fort half which the half-dragon paladin was almost guaranteed to make with his +17, so you're probably looking at only a -1 penalty to things with this spell. Nice, but not a game-changer.
Yeah at the time of posting I didn't know what kind of magic they had other than 'no level 2 spells yet' - I used that as just an example of the kind of magic that helps against 'can't hit this guy' type of thing. When you are looking at moving him from 'only hit on a 20' every -1 helps.
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You can disarm on an AoO, but you cannot trip as an AoO when someone is standing up from prone. Also, unless someone in the party has Improved Trip/ Improved Disarm you'll provoke an AoO for trying and the damage dealt is subtracted from your trip attempt, so good luck with that. Maybe if you get him to take his AoO earlier in the round on someone who was maneuvering into flanking position? Maybe?
Well I was thinking that ideally you'd take the pain with setting up the sticky bomb and flank and eat the AoO to trip him - once he's prone do the disarm on the inevitable stand up - because of prone the disarm has a much greater chance of working (at least that's what I was thinking).
If you can disarm him on the 'stand up' ideally action economy would kick in and at least *someone* would have the ability to grab his sword and run off - and then you can trip/grapple/whatever because he's now unarmed and thus doesn't threaten.
To the OP...
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Assuming we had all of these things and assuming he didn't make the DC 15 reflex save, and at +7 all he has to do is roll an 8. and even if that didnt work he could break free with a str check of 11, which is doable
The save is to keep from being stuck - as long as you make the *touch* attack to hit - he's entangled and thus has the 'suck' penalty - the 'stuck' is really just a 'might get lucky' against a big bad - the awesome thing about the tanglefoot bag is the entangled condition that you *can't* save for and *can't* get rid of with a strength check - that's only for the stuck part.
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (rabbit fur)
EFFECT
Range 50 ft.
Target The caster and allies within a 50-ft. burst centered on the caster
Duration 1 minute/level or until discharged
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
DESCRIPTION
Each creature affected by this spell is given the potential for greater success and glory. If the affected creature is benefiting from a morale bonus of any type, it can double that morale bonus on one roll or check, before making the roll. Once an affected creature uses this spell’s effect, the spell is discharged for that subject.[b]
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one willing living creature per three levels, no two of which may be more than 30 ft. apart
[b]Duration concentration + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
Hid the rules behind the spoiler to keep the response clearer - in essence it's within the rules. - however (based on the parts I bolded above) you have to remember the following:
The rage spell lasts for 1 round per level if they are not concentrating - so your 4th level bard will get 5 rounds of rage (1 on the round he casts - plus 4 more when he spams his wand)
The moment of greatness only amps up one roll - not everything so one attack or damage roll - not all of them - and not both attack and damage.
Also for this all to work everyone has to be clustered together - within 50ft of the bard.
If my players were doing this I'd use stuff like this on them.... (and yes - I'd do it over and over until they stopped trying to cheese :P)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (dust and water)
EFFECT
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area cylinder (40-ft. radius, 20 ft. high)
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
Driving sleet blocks all sight (even darkvision) within it and causes the ground in the area to be icy. A creature can walk within or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move in that round, while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)
and
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Calm Emotions
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2; Domain charm 2, family 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
We use a pizza 'thingy' (the plastic pronged thing in the middle of like a papa johns pizza) and put the person on that for flying/levitate.
after that it's a bit complicated - typically just remember that your 'combat zone' is all 5 foot squares - even up or down - and that means everything is at a right triangle to everything else at all times (for combat resolution).
Knowing that you can use a(squared) + b(squared) = c(squared) and a calculator to do the math to give you distances.
For instances - 5 foot away and 5 feet in the air = 7.5 feet from the character - if you follow the rest of the grid anything less than 10 feet away is within your 'attack space' - so that's within melee.
5 foot away and 10 foot up is 11.18 feet away so it's 'outside' of a normal melee range but within reach weapon distance.
for flying creatures if they are trying to attack each other they (outside of trying to be very complex) are assumed to be 'level' enough to just call it a normal grid map (but in the air).
You can use the 'right triangle' method to get the range for bows and spells as well when there is a wall or other elevation feature to the map - also remember to use the 'on higher ground' feature:
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On higher ground +1 attack
If you want a nice house rule give bows an additional 20 feet of range increment when elevated at least 10 feet above the enemy.
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
So a touch attack - his touch AC should be 11 (+1 dex) so easy to hit - that gives him a -2 to hit and -4 to dex
So now he's +14 to hit and AC 28 (-4 dex = -2 AC) and there is no save against that - he can save to avoid getting stuck (which he will unless he rolls a 1) but he's now got some suck.
Then:
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Acid
Source Core Rulebook
You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.
So another touch attack - his touch ac should now be 9 (dex penalty) and that's 1d6 damage if you hit - no save - no DR (unless he has acid resistance).
Flasks of acid are 10g each - honestly those or alchemical fire are really handy for *everyone* to have a couple (or more) as they stop swarms and are great against 'uber armor'
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Smokestick
Price 20 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke when burned. The smoke fills a 10-foot cube (treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round). The stick is consumed after 1 round, and the smoke dissipates naturally after 1 minute.
These fill a 10 foot square - and you can put them behind you so the smoke is in *your* square but not his - that gives you concealment and thus a miss chance for him - but he's not in the smoke so you can still hit him. A rogues best friend as when they have concealment they can sneak attack. The smoke lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds) so unless there is a wind you have some time.
Now:
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Caltrops
Source Core Rulebook
Source Wikipedia
A caltrop is a four-pronged metal spike crafted so that one prong faces up no matter how the caltrop comes to rest. You scatter caltrops on the ground in the hope that your enemies step on them or are at least forced to slow down to avoid them. One 2-pound bag of caltrops covers an area 5 feet square.
Each time a creature moves into an area covered by caltrops (or spends a round fighting while standing in such an area), it runs the risk of stepping on one. Make an attack roll for the caltrops (base attack bonus +0) against the creature. For this attack, the creature's shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count. If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC. If the attack succeeds, the creature has stepped on a caltrop. The caltrop deals 1 point of damage, and the creature's speed is reduced by half because its foot is wounded. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical healing. A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop. Any creature moving at half speed or slower can pick its way through a bed of caltrops with no trouble.
Caltrops may not work against unusual opponents.
Toss these on his square - now because of the tanglefoot you need to make an attack roll for AC 11 (10, -1 dex, +2 armor) and if they hit he's at half speed.
These are 1g per use.
Now flank him - and he's at AC 26.
His CMD is 10 +5 (bab) +8 (str) -1 (dex) so 22 - you are going to have a hard time with any combat maneuvers - however if you aid each other you might be able to get a trip or a disarm off. - remember flank adds to your CMB.
Assuming your fighter is level 3 with a 18 str - you are at +7 to hit - with flank +9 - so you should be able to trip or disarm him with a roll of 13 or better. Have someone aid your action and now you are at a 11 or better to disarm or trip.
Now we are in workable territory. Remove his weapon - get him on the ground. Now he's prone.
Prone is -4 AC and -4 to hit - so now he's at 22 AC and +12 to hit (assuming you didn't disarm him yet) - and his CMD is down to 18 - so you can disarm him even easier once he's on the ground. Getting up is an AoO and he *still has the penalties while he gets up* *and* you can trip or disarm on an AoO.
If more than one of you gets an AoO on him - you can also aid the other person's AoO.
In short - a bit of gold on equipment that (honestly) everyone should carry and some smart tactics *can* get this guy down.
That's without any spells.
Have your wizard toss a ray of enfeeblement on him and you can lower his CMB and CMD, to hit and damage with one spell... and that's a level 1 spell.
It's doable - assuming you went in with a plan and didn't roll a bunch of 1's on the dice (that's always my problem).
But I'll give you - this is a tough encounter - without taking a moment to think about how to get him down it can easily be a wash.
We haven't come up with a token solution we like for anything larger than Huge. A 1/16"-thick token looks really anemic on a 4" diameter base. Even if you do a set of interlocking tokens (imagine an "X" shape for the overhead view) to make them 3D-esque,
Hrmmm - just a thought - but for the really 'biguns' perhaps instead of a 'token' go for a 'popup' 3-d model - doesn't have to be complex - just something that gives the 'space' with the cool artwork :)
I'd say a 'square' base with slots on each side of the square to take up the space but that would be even more sheets to the mix and thus increase the price - not sure if there is a good solution but if there is I figure you guys can figure it out!
Gentle Repose takes care of keeping the body fresh - but reincarnation doesn't say the body has to be in any kind of shape - it doesn't even say it needs a body - it just needs the death to be within a week.
It's a time restriction not a body restriction.
Quote:
So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists
Reincarnation works on a fingernail (based on the wording above) - the benefits of the spell are that it works with almost nothing - but the drawbacks are you get a new body.
It's the only 'raise' spell that requires so little until you get to Resurrection.
Resurrection only works for death within 10 years per caster level.
True Resurrection doesn't need the body but it's still 10 years per caster level.
I get you can 'dm fiat' it but the spells themselves wouldn't have worked outside of a wish or miracle (by RAW anyway).
I have to ask how in the world did you allow a reincarnation when...
Quote:
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than 1 week before the casting of the spell and the subject's soul is free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
I'd say it just didn't work period - if you wanted to get cheeky about it and let it happen he runs off to the big K who has plenty of (wishes) ways to make him a giant again - and just add him as another boss/bad guy at the end.
Early on someone posted a 'items cards' using open office - I've updated these for the AV version and have finished Burnt Offerings - all player loot that is in the module (except coins) is represented here - enjoy :)
Well, My dnd group is all but dead now, so i've been debating on selling everything, or perhaps updating and selling at this point, Everyone seems to busy for dnd these days perhaps it best to cut my loses and split out. It takes an average of 5 years to find a dnd group that stays together for more then one session.
*sighs*
It takes serious work to keep a group together - and the ability to bring new people in and let old ones go and still have fun.
That said if there is a Pathfinder Society event(s) that happens in your area I think you'll find it's a great way to meet other people who play and possibly make friends (which leads to groups) - it's also a way to enjoy playing without having a set group if you are very busy.
Our problem atm is that the group is just *slightly* too large... we have 7 players + a GM - and at least 2-3 more that *could* play. And it's honestly better to deal with the madness of a large party than tell someone not now - because life can be full of unexpected and your 7 person group can be 3 in a heartbeat.
Also I notice that many groups seem to get together for 'marathon' sessions (6+ hours) - and with our group we find it easier to do a 3 hour session once a week - outside of holidays it's always the same day - for a few hours - and that makes it something nice and predictable you can work around - as well as not such a huge timesink that people will find reasons that keep them away.
Again, comments appreciated... if it's something I'm doing wrong them I'm more than happy to stand corrected :)
Tim
Here is what I would do...
Spoiler:
Your group is 3 full BAB classes - 2 utility - and 1 arcane - for the fight above I would have increased the HPS on everything by 100% over what's in the book.
The zombies are 71 hps each so that would put them at 142 hps each - the boss at 252 hps.
142hps - 54 chain lightning - 26 channel - (cleric 13d6 - assuming like 40ish dmg) that leaves them taking full damage from everyone and having 20ish hps left.
We'll assume the ranger still takes one out - that leaves 3 zombies to at least *try* to get a shot off on the first round and they are targets for round 2 giving the HL a shot at another attack.
Given that room they are in is 120' x 60' I'd have made sure that they were spread out a bit so one channel didn't get all of them - or the channeler would have had to take an AoO to move into position to get them all
Given that your group is a level up you could add channel resistance to the zombies to make it even slightly harder - give the zombies the ability to give the HL 2 rounds (1 to cast fear and 2nd to summon the 9 fast human zombies) - add into that this is meant to be a 'easy to normal encounter' at this point of the dungeon and you have an encounter that makes them use up channels per day/arrows/possibly a bit of healing but doesn't pose a serious risk to them unless the dice are *extremely unlucky* or they do something silly...
That sounds about right to me - but that's my two cents - you'll find increasing hps on stuff with that much raw firepower in your group lets it stand up *just* slightly long enough to be a threat I think.
Part of your problem might be in the fact that they can retreat, heal, and then come back. Mokmurian is intellegent, he will realize this, and take steps. His battle works better if they have used some of their spells and equipment before they get to him.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah I don't mean upping the CR - you can do that too - but in general I mean upping the stats (hps,saves,dc,etc) without modifying the CR of the encounter.
Spoiler:
So you upped the CR of the headless lord himself and added 4 zombie Hill Giants (for 8) and they still one rounded it?
At this point your APL should be 13 for a party of 6 players that means your total player levels has to be 74 or less - this means that 4 of your players should be level 12. (remember APL for a 6 person group = total levels / 6 rounded up + 1)
I'm actually impressed if a group of mostly level 12 could take on a CR 14 + 8 CR 6 critters without breaking a sweat. That encounter is worth 57,700 (a CR 15 encounter) so it should have at least made them pause.
It's hard to know how I'd change things up without looking at your party makeup however. What classes do you have?
If you have more than 4 players you need to scale it up - if you used higher than a 15 point buy you *may* need to scale on that also.
Rule of thumb:
Separate your players into three groups: Full BAB classes = martial, Full Arcane casters = Arcane, everyone else = utility.
Your 4 person party the AP was designed for assumes a party of 1 martial, 1 arcane, 2 utility.
For your party do the following:
For each martial over 1 - increase HPS of enemies by 50%.
For each arcane over 1 - add 1 monster of APL to each encounter.
For each utility over 2 - increase monster saves and DC's by 1
Give that a shot and see if it doesn't help - all of that assumes of course that your party is keeping up level wise. A party of 6 while starting out strong by the assault on the stone giant fortress really should be a level or two behind the 4 person party due to spreading the exp around.
How it looks in Hero Lab - hp output is wrong though (bug maybe) it's actually 9d10+36
Unnamed Hero CR 7
XP 3200
Howler
CE Huge Outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar)
Init +6; Senses darkvision; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, -2 size, +7 natural)
hp 85 (5d10+36)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +5
Defensive Abilities quill defense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Bite (Howler) +15 (2d6+8/x2) and
. . Quills (Howler) +10 (1d6+4/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks howl (dc 14), pain (dc 16)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 26, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +19; CMD 31
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Improved Initiative, Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus (Perception), Vital Strike
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+26 jump), Climb +20, Fly -2, Perception +17, Stealth +6
Languages Abyssal (can't speak)
Other Gear You have no money!
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Howl (DC 14) (Su) Curse - howl; save Will negates; frequency 1/hour; effect 1 Wis damage; cure 1 save.
Pain (DC 16) (Ex) Foes hurt by quills are sickened until they are removed (Ref neg).
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quill Defense (Ex) Any creature that strikes a howler with a non-reach melee weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon takes 1d4+1 points of piercing damage from the howler's quills and suffers from the howler's pain attack.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle.
So the answer is no.
Bull rush *can* be used to force a creature into another occupied square.
Quote:
If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
So you can force creatures into the same square - however this movement doesn't cause AoO's unless they have the greater bull rush feat.
Can I make multiple sunder attempts in one round as part of a full-attack action? The sunder text says that I can make sunder attempts in place of melee attacks in an attack action, which is not technically a full-attack action.
Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.
Drow can work - but you are going to need to have a decent backstory - and make them good aligned.
See nobodyshome's game journal for a drow that made me rethink using them as a race.
IMO though I'd make them take the alternate racial trait to remove the darkvision and get normal low-light vision along with a campaign trait like adopted which gives them a reason for being on the surface (again see nobodyshome's journal for a great story there).
I will agree on the goblin - it's almost impossible to use a race that is the 'big evil' - drow wouldn't work in second darkness - goblins don't work in RotRL.
I can see the makings of a very nice 'side quest' from this though - say level 11/12 ish - agents from the plane of water contact you because the water level is draining and after years of research they discover some wizard did this...
Track down the wizard (or their notes/research) and shut it down - perhaps even reverse the process if possible...
Could even be a full adventure with cracking a wizards tower - perhaps the wizard either a) died and the experiment was left going, or b) is a lich and doesn't care about the timeframe.
Either way this is a neat situation and I think a nifty planar experience that could get your group some allies on the plane of water ;)
There's no need to imagine 'dropping' opponents unless you're really intent on disparaging a particular rules function. A grapple is dropped if you don't maintain it, which you can do at any point in your turn. The Grab Monster can FulL Attack at the beginning of it's turn, it's Targets still have the DEX penalty of Grappled, and re-attack and re-grab all of it's targets. Nobody is dropped... The Grab Monster's facility at Grappling multiple targets just doesn't extend to PINNING multiple targets... It's just good at GRABBING (Grappling) them
You know I looked at the (many) other threads regarding 'grab' - which in the context of grapple and how it applies when used must be confusing to a great many people.
Hundreds of replies and arguments - and I think the above is quite simply the very best explanation of this ability I've seen. This makes perfect sense.
So a creature with grab - uses full attack - can make a grab with any of the attacks at -20 to give the 'grappled' condition to the target - however if it chooses to use a normal check it would gain the grappled condition itself (my assumption would be as the grapple check is a free action due to grab the creature could continue it's full attack).
Next round (assuming it didn't use a normal check last round) anyone who failed the CMD check would have a grappled condition but the creature does not - it doesn't have to make a grapple check but it would need to make another attack/grab on the target to maintain the 'grab'. This also makes sense and means that the monster can't full attack an entire party (and grab them) - then make free checks to maintain and move (with a octopus possibly drowning the entire party for instance) - the only way to 'grab' a target and then move would require a normal grapple - the 'grab' feature only really gives the creature the ability to limit party movement unless the creature wanted to focus on one character.
That falls in line with other 'special abilities' as (in every instance they are clarified that I have found) if you can read in a way to make them a bit more limiting then that's most likely the intent. Whenever provoked to make a response on creature attacks JB has always advocated being careful with special properties on monsters otherwise the become much deadlier than the CR would indicate.
lol long story short - thank you Quandary for that explanation - it clarified quite a bit of confusion trying to read through the rest of the grab discussions created for me.
Attack Action cannot be used as a reason as to why Vital Strike cannot be folded into a Full-Attack at the same time as it is used as a reason as to why Quick Sunder is not needed because Attack Action can already be folded into a Full-Attack Action.
The attack action isn't why vital strike can't be used in a full-attack - it's because the feat itself says
Quote:
you can make one attack
You can only make one attack - it's in the feat - no more - no less - one
One attack = a standard action = can't use other feats that use the standard action.
People were trying to use this feat with others that also use a standard action (but make an attack as part of the action) and this feat is incompatible with those because it uses the attack action and only allows a single attack.
No matter what you do with 'the attack action' it will never matter for vital strike as it only allows a single attack, which means it will always be a single attack that uses a standard action.
Depending on your parties makeup the loot might be awesome - or meh.
Loot in this AP in general is bursty (at least through level 9-10 from my perspective - there is a serious lack of it to begin with (compensated by freebies the party *should* be able to get from townfolk) followed by decent 'caches'.
If your group misses out on a 'cache' it could leave them underpowered (assuming you don't give them hints to go looking in 'that other room') then again if they find everything it could be over the top I suppose.
Much of the answer though is going to depend on the class makeup of your group - and if you are running 4 people or more. The loot (assuming they find everything again) is tuned around 150% wealth by level for a 4 person party - if you have a 6 person group that will leave them lacking which crafting can make up for, and even then the 'gold' wealth would limit what they can turn around and craft.
Spoiler:
The AP itself has some fights that are brutal, yet are a breeze with the right classes (a Paladin with detect evil is handy many times, and a class with channel can make at least one early deadly fight a joke for instance)
If you don't like crafting though I'd just leave it out - not as much due to the imbalance as much, rather that if you don't like crafting and allow it you'll stress over what they are making. Really it's not worth always doubting if you made the right call, because that's no fun. You can always change your mind later if you think they could use a boost - it's hard to take it back after the fact though.
but a Caster making an SR check on something like Fireball could fail and then succeed, meaning they NEVER have to check again against that opponent for the rest of the battle.
I'm just curious - but I don't see where you get the 'never check again' power from?
SR in normal play must be overcome on a per spell basis - is this some mythic power I overlooked?
I was actually talking about the 'battlemap' version - they claim to be laminated but I'm unsure if they are meant to be inclusive or not. (on the FGG website under Rappan Athuk they are under the 'swag' category
If you use the campaign traits you can fit almost anything in just make an unusual choice take the 'adopted' trait and have them raised (and known locally) in Sandpoint.
That doesn't mean they are well liked or that there aren't prejudices but it does give a good reason as to why they are in the area and a reason for the town to not scream 'monster' - reactions in the rest of the AP could be interesting but presumably by the time they move out they'll have enough clout to get letters of introduction to smooth over initial reactions.
As to Drow - I think they are fine but I'd make them use adopted (as above) and use the 'low light' alternate racial trait - which removes the sun sensitivity and dark vision and just makes them a more interesting type of elf ;)
I'd most likely make them remove the poison affinity as well (IMO) but that's my two cents.
Rappan Athuk Reloaded is the old 3.5 box set; which is available as a PoD softcover and softcover map book too
So Rappan Athuk has:
1. RA1, RA2, RA3 books in 3.0
2. Rappan Athuk Reloaded in 3.5 (limited edition box set of 1000) and PoD now
3. Rappan Athuk hardcover in Pathfinder and Swords and Wizardry
make sense?
I think so lol - if I am only interested in the pathfinder version will it be missing out on something (other than the 'golden ticket' (I'm not sure what that is))
I just want to figure out what the extra 400 bucks is getting you I suppose.
a swashbuckler with lots of combat feats, a martial character does not make. it's merely a utility character who...
:) yes - but if you have someone who breaks the game playing AM Barbarian - or the halfling paladin on a wardog with a lance - and they decide to play a concept character to keep from being 'that guy' - they most likely will still keep up. I've seen it happen, sometimes giving 'that guy' the monk doesn't bring the party down as much as it lets the GM balance for the entire group.
For each combat class over 4 add 50% hps to the critters
For each spellcaster class over 4 add one mook per encounter
For each specialist class (3/4 BAB like rogue/bard) increase saves and DC's by 1 on everything.
I was going to suggest something similar, but less well defined. I understand the first to items on your list and use them myself. Make monsters tougher so that they don't get dropped by damage in a single round, and more numerous so that it takes more than one round of failed saves before a fight is over.
Why would having an extra rogue in the party cause you to increase saves and DCs?
Utility classes (bard/rogue/cleric/etc with 3/4 BAB) are utility because they bring some benefit to the group via buffs or tricks or other such things that typically interact with the encounter by reducing it's effectiveness.
If a bard inspires courage on the group that's +1 to hit and +1 dmg - that +1 to hit increases the CMB of the PC's - another utility class (say a cleric) can buff the party (bull's strength) or possibly take an enemy out of action (hold person). The Bard could fascinate the encounter or cast a spell (most of their spells are more party friendly than a full arcane).
The general rule is to increase saves/dc's to offset the extra chances and buffs that a utility class brings to the table.
Obviously you have to gauge your own group and how they play to figure out the real roles - a rogue who takes swashbuckler and has melee feats up the wazoo for instance might need to be looked at as another full BAB class instead of utility - one that uses dirty tricks and feint and such to debuff the encounter would be more utility.
It's a tough call and the rules are not set in stone, it's more like a rule of thumb based on the typical roles those classes represent.
We use the above formula to see we need another CR 3 creature to give this party a hard time - in this case a single yeth hound added (CR 3) gives us the extra punch we need to make it a challenge. This actually makes the encounter CR 7.
Ckorik - your details are very much appreciated. Thanks for taking the time.
In the passage you wrote (quoted above) it almost certifies that the end result of this technique is exactly the principle I'm speaking of. Namely, by boosting the overall encounter levels when dealing with a full group.
I am running six players, sorry if I wasn't clear:
>Fighter - full BAB
>Word of Power Sorcerer - Arcane
>Wizard - Arcane
>Oracle - utility (healing)
>Bard - utility
>Rogue - utility
Note: I'm not okay with arbitrarily increasing the +1 to saves for opponents (mosters or NPCs). However, I am okay with trying to roll high. Over the years, by letting myself follow the same standards of the game, I get to "play along too" as a GM. I rarely, if ever, need to fudge anything. As you can tell, the purpose of this discussion is to find that "sweet spot" of combat challenge at any level through bettering my overall game design skills.
The RotRL example is good (I'm assuming you're referencing the updated Pathfinder RPG version and not the 3.5 version of RotRL?)
I was using the new version of RotRL. Looking over your group I see you have 1 extra arcane and 1 extra utility.
I understand why you don't like the saves/dc's - however the guidelines are assuming you use the PL as a base (you are using PL+1) and building encounters like that.
By using PL+1 as the base you already are (in a way) increasing the saves/dc's by 1 - as these increase with the CR level naturally - using your system would make increasing the saves further dangerous.
At no point did JJ (or any other dev, according to what's been posted in this thread) say that sunder can only be made as a standard action!
Except for where the Lead Designer stated three separate times that the term used in sunder's text is a type of standard action.
Quote:
Any time a dev has been specific about sunder they have said that it can be used in a full attack.
You mean the one comment before Pathfinder was even published where Jason stated what the intent was at the time, prior to defining the terminology used in sunder to do the opposite?
JB's only comment on sunder made it useable in a full attack - the wording for sunder never changed - his vital strike comment doesn't invalidate his sunder comment - you are trying to make his vital strike comment stretch to be more inclusive than it is.
